The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - LIVE: Pacers-Knicks Reaction: Tyrese Haliburton BALLS OUT in Game 4 win vs. Jalen Brunson & KAT

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

Jason reacts live after the Indiana Pacers beat the New York Knicks in Game 4 of the Eastern Conference Finals. He discusses Tyrese Haliburton’s incredible game and Pascal Siam’s strong play out-dueling Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns. Then he discusses how the Pacers could potentially match up against the Oklahoma City Thunder in the NBA Finals.    Follow the show on Playback for future “Aftershow” content: https://www.playback.tv/hoopstonight  #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas.

We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it. But, you know, tired and sick. Tired and sick.

Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. Help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the ice. Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam?

It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast, Point Game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was funny. You just understood. That's how personal it got.

Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis' keep coming to. He's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is, getting a racist statue removed. And here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is. Getting a new one put up in its place. I'm Akila Hughes, and Rebel Spirit Season 2 is about both of those things. As I was watching these statues come down, I was thinking about what it meant that I grew up in a majority black city, in which there were more homages to enslavers than there were to enslave people. Listen to Rebel Spirit season two on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The volume.

The NBA finals are almost here at every play could be the one that changes everything. This is the NBA playoffs, where heroes rise, legacies are built, and the action never lets up. And with Draf King's Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA, you don't just watch the madness, you live it. Back your favorite team. Ride with your clutch time killer. Bet on the buzzer beaters. the breakout performances, the game-winning threes, from player props to same game parlayes,

this is how you take your fandom to the next level. The New York Knicks, after beating the Celtics, are up to plus 360 as the second best odds to win the title. Surprisingly, the Pacers back at plus 600, because my initial thought on that series is I want to pick the Pacers, but some interesting championship odds right now. New to the game, no sweat. Download the Draf King Sportsbook app.

Bet just $5. and if your bet wins, you'll score $300 in bonus bets. It's that easy. Download the Draft King Sportsbook app and use code Hoops. That's code Hoops, H-O-O-P-S for new customers to get $300 in bonus bets if your bet wins when you bet just $5. Only on Draft Kings, the crown is yours. Gambling problem?

Call 1-800 gambler. In New York, call 8778 Hope N-Y or text Hope N-Y to 467-369. In Connecticut, help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-78-8-9-7-77 or visit ccpg.org. Please play responsibly on behalf of Boot Hill Casino and Resort in Kansas. 21 plus, age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction, void in Ontario. Bet must win to receive reward. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance.

For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, C-DKNG.c.c.com slash audio. Tonight here at the Volume. Happy Tuesday, everybody. are having a great start to your week. Well, the Indiana Pacers, as expected, ended up going up 3-1 on the Knicks tonight. Kind of a wire-to-wire type of game.

There's a brief Knicks push early, a little bit of a tempting push from the Knicks late, but the Pacers consistently demonstrated themselves to be the better team tonight, as they have for the majority of this series. We're going to break that game down from the perspective of both teams. We're going to talk.

Jackson has a theory that he's higher on the Indiana Pacers and their chances against Oklahoma the city than I am. So I thought that would make fun grounds for a debate. So we'll have a little debate in the middle section of the show as we talk about a potential NBA finals matchup between the Pacers and the Thunder. And then at the tail end of the show, we'll take five, 10 minutes of questions. Any big picture questions you guys have regarding either series? We can get to them at that point. And then when we wrap up here tonight, we'll be heading over to playback. Again, that's playback.com.tv slash hoops tonight. We take callers. We watch film. It's informal.

We just have fun. We just talk hoops. It's a fun little community we're building. over there. So make sure you guys follow us over there when we finish up tonight. You guys know the drill before we get started. Subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on Twitter. At underscore Jason LT so you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast feed wherever you get your podcast under Hoops Tonight. It's also super helpful if you leave your rating and a review on that front. Jackson's doing great work on our social media feeds on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. Make sure you guys follow us there.

And last but not least, keep dropping mailback questions in the chat so that we can get to them at the tail end of the show tonight. All right, let's talk some basketball. So one of the things, to credit the Knicks, one of the things that they did at the end of game three, which I have not seen often in this postseason run, aside from game three, ironically, of the Cavs series, where Max Strues started, you know, he had been, the calves had been in intentionally denying Tyrese Halliburton throughout the series. But Struz just did a way better job of it in game three. And it kind of just threw the, the Pacers out of whack, and they had a really weird night. But for the most part, there's like a pace and an energy and a flood.

to Indiana's offense that is pretty consistent. Like one of the biggest theories that I leaned on in terms of me picking Indiana to beat the Knicks, I wasn't sure necessarily which team had the higher ceiling. Like when things were really going well for either team, it kind of felt coin flippy to me. But I just trusted the Pacers to more frequently be at their best than I trusted the Knicks team. And that made it a relatively easy pick for me relative to some of the other more

you know, kind of confusing series that we've seen in this postseason run. But to the next credit, in game three, in that fourth quarter, we saw a Pacer's offense that didn't look like the Pacer's offense as the ball wasn't moving around. They lacked that pace and flow in transition, kind of turned into some iffy isolation possessions. And it just kind of felt like they lost their character a little bit. And Tyrese Halliburton had zero interest in letting that phenomenon extend into the start of game for immediately coming out the gates, bringing that energy, bringing that flow. I thought St. Van Gundy had an interesting point in the broadcast, talking about how the point guard is the guy that really pushes his team to run, not necessarily

the coach. Now, I don't necessarily agree with that assertion because we've seen coaches make teams run more. I mean, frankly, this year, just Kenny Atkinson and what he did with the calves, got them to run more than they did in years past. But I do think it's a combination of both. And I think the way I would kind of like tweak that take from Stain Van Gundy is I would say your point guard can supersede or I would even say your point guard, your superstar, your foundational offensive fulcrum can overcome any sort of coaching roster, circumstance, and get guys to run and get guys to take on their identity as an

offensive player. That's why over the years we saw so many different types of players thrive alongside Steph Curry, so many different types of players. Like we've seen now in recent years, guys like guys that weren't on older versions of the nuggets, guys like Peyton Watson, guys like Christian Brown, guys like Russell Westbrook that have thrived with him. And with LeBron James, just every single guy who can knock down a catch and shoot jump shot and is smart knows how to be in the right place. Those guys just seem to fit with LeBron and do it well. I think that you can have an offensive fulcrum that can kind of inject life into an offense irrespective of your coach. And I thought, you know, Tyrus Halliburton in many ways is the identity of this Pacer's team.

And even going back to some of the stretches in last year's postseason when they looked bad, a lot of it had to center around Halliburton kind of just going passive for various reasons, whether it was, you know, obviously he wasn't the same athlete last year that he was this year because of his hamstring injury. but similarly the instances of ball denial that we've seen that have taken him in his kind of like flow out of games and how it can impact the Pacers. But at this phase of his career, he's far more consistently engaged, he's far more consistently bringing that, you know, kind of like assertion on the offensive end. And those stretches have been few and far between. Like when we watch the Pacers at the end of game three, that was weird. That was unusual for a team that has consistently been firing on all cylinders in the

postseason run similarly in that Cavs game. It's like, oh, that's really weird. Well, they came out in game four and hung 80 points in the first half. So there's just like a relentless kind of identity to this basketball team. And I do think it stems from Halliburton. I do think he's the driving force. Generally speaking, these kinds of players, speaking back to Tyrese Halliburton and his pushback against him being the most over-overrated player in the league, I generally think that advantage creators are underrated in the NBA. Yes, I'm saying even guys like Steph, even guys like LeBron, even guys like Nicola Yokic. Outside of their fan bases, there's a reason why those fan bases scream about it all the time.

There's a reason why Denver fans are constantly trying to tell you about Yokic and what he does. There's a reason why Steph fans are doing that with Stet. There's a reason why LeBron fans are doing that with LeBron. There's a reason why Luka fans are doing that with Luca. Because flat out, when you have an offensive player that can create advantages, putting your role players in a situation where instead of facing a set, defender, they have someone sprinting at them, or they're operating in an opening. Every player in the NBA becomes like four times as good as they are when they don't get to operate

within an advantage. It is arguably the most important trait that any basketball player can bring to the table. It is why I have always been drawn to offensive engines more than I've been drawn to like kind of the stereotypical two-way score type of player. The type of player that can consistently set his teammates up with advantages is going to make life easier. in every phase of the game. And Tyrese is just one of the best at it. Even when we looked at the down the stretch part of this game, like there's a, when the Knicks made that run and they cut it down to,

I think they got it down as close as five, if I remember correctly before Siakum hits a three in the right corner, is like four or five points, something like that. All it is is like, Halliburton brings ball up the floor with pace. M-Hard comes into a guard-guard screen, slips out of it. And two people linger on the ball on Halliburton for just a split second. and Halliburton just pitches it over the top.

And when Nemhard catches it, the guy closing out on him is closing out behind his right shoulder. And so he's like, oh shit, I got a driving lane. And so he just goes down into the lane. And as he's going down in the lane, O.G. and Adobie has no choice. But to step over, he's the low man. So he's the guy that has to step over and be in help. Easy extra pass to Pascal Seaccombe in the right corner, knocks down the three. That ends up being a monstrously important shot in this game.

Zero mention of that in the box score. that's a Nemhard assist and a Seacum catch and shoot three. There is no mention of that in the box score for Tyrese Halliburton. Advantage creators are vastly underrated because if you look at the box score, it's not going to account for the simple fact that they lean the defense towards them and various, and each player has done it in a different way. Halliburton does it different than Yokic. Yokic does it different than Steph.

Steph does it different than Luca or LeBron in the past. These guys all do it in different ways, but it more or less manifests. an advantage creation. The Tyrese Halliburton layup that he had down the stretch right after the Siakum three. They just ran a guard guard screen and the guard lingered too long and it blew the playup and led to a wide open three for Siakum. So what happens on the very next guard guard screen? Brunson throws a half-hearted hedge because he's hesitant to leave his shooter and Halliburton

just turns the corner. What's the advantage there? The advantage is the guy who's guarding him has to get through a screen with no help. and he's just, he's going to have a hard time keeping in front of a fast guard like Tyrese Halliburton like that. But that is a reward for the fact that Tyrese Halliburton so religiously makes those reads over and over and over again. And it kind of manifests in the identity of this roster, even the Miles Turner foul where he draws the foul late. It wasn't even a Halliburton action. It was an Andrew Nemhard action, but they, they, he comes off the screen. Carl Anthony Towns has to step up to contest.

as a result, Miles Turner is diving to the basket with McAle Bridges trying to box him out. And so even though Seacom doesn't get the rebound, he just kind of taps at it, it leaves a situation where all of a sudden this skinny 6-7 dude is trying to deal with the starting center for the Indiana Pacers and he's just going to go get an offensive rebound. Advantage creation is a thing that doesn't manifest in the box score. In that case, Andrew Nemhardt coming off of a screen, that doesn't show as an assist. It shows as a missed field goal. It like is a negative thing on his box score, but because he came off of that action with pace,

because he set his man up for the screen and got separation, he was able to force a switch that led to a different kind of advantage. Miles Turner inside position against a skinny, small, McHale Bridges, key play in the game, he gets to the foul line. Advantage creation is underrated. And I think, I think we don't talk about it nearly enough. And there's a reason why that type of player is the type of player that I find myself gravitating towards. And With Tyris Halliburton, you know, like, he's kind of another one of those guys similar to Jason Tatum, where like there's kind of two versions of him on any given night. There's like the star version of him and then there's like the superstar version of him. And similarly with Tatum, the superstar version of Tyrus Halliburton comes from when the jump shot is going in.

When he's being aggressive as a scorer, he impacts the game at a level as high as the very best players in the NBA. Now, his floor is high. His advantage creation is such a valuable tool that he can be the eighth or ninth best player in the league averaging 18 points and nine assists, right? That's a pretty innocuous box score. Now, again, that box score is underrating the impact that he brings, but that is still a star level player with a stat line more in line with what you see from the 40, 45th best player in the league, right? That's the advantage creation piece. That's the floor for Tyrese Halliburton. when he brings the shooting, when he's knocking down those threes coming off of ball screens,

when he's knocking down those mid-range pull-ups, coming off of ball screens, when he's taking Miles Turner, or excuse me, when he's taking Carl Anthony Towns or Mitchell Robinson out on a switch and hitting a three in their face or Jalen Brunson and hitting a three in his face, that switch beating, that is the top end of him as a score. And when he does all of that stuff, they react to his shooting, which gets him the driving lanes. That's when he starts getting into the basket and he's actually like a pretty good downhill athlete. Him and T.J. McConnell kind of remind me of each other in that sense where they are just constantly playing downhill. And so even though they may not be the first step athletes that

you see like Anthony Edwards, they are athletes that generate advantage with pace. They keep moving all the time and they capitalize on the defense letting go of the rope in that perpetual motion that they bring to the table. But awesome night from Tyree Saliburton just. just one of those iconic performances in his career, 32 points, 12 rebounds, 15 assists, and here's the thing, it doesn't turn the damn basketball over. He's less than two turnovers per game in this entire postseason run. I think he has 27 turnovers in 14 games. Like, that is, not only is that going to be vitally important for a potential Oklahoma City

Thunder series, which we're about to debate with Jackson here in a few minutes, that is just preposterous considering the usage, the types of difficult passes that he's making. There's like these jump passes, these double pump passes. He had this pass where he got caught in between reeds. And like at the last second, like he like looked at Miles Turner on a roll, decided not to pass to him, looked over to the side, then looked back to Turner and like floated a perfect pass against a three-quarter front that just barely got over the defender's fingertips and just fed Miles Turner in for a layup. And it was like all while he was in midair. It was just an unbelievable pass. It's like the kinds of difficult skip passes, swing passes,

the kinds of off the dribble passes that he throws to not turn the basketball over is truly remarkable. And, you know, if you haven't been exposed to Tyrese Halliburton and what he's capable of, and I don't know how you wouldn't be. He's hit what, two or three game winners in this postseason or, you know, obviously the Knicks game wasn't a game winner, but a shot that effectively put them in position to win the game. he's been between the in-season tournament run that he had last year, even the conference finals run last year,

which didn't really showcase his high-end scoring as often as it could have been, but it showcased a lot of what his playmaking talent is. This was a crash course for anybody who hasn't really been around the Pacers to understand just how gifted a ceiling Tyrese Halliburton has. Aaron Neesmith, I want to talk about a couple other Pacers, and then we'll talk a little bit big picture on the series, and then we'll get to Jackson in our NBA finals preview. So I thought Aaron Neesmith, you know,

this is the wear and tear impact that he brings to the table with his ball pressure. There have been stretches in the series where Brunson has scored on him and made it look easy, right? There were even a couple possessions tonight where he scored on him and made it look easy. But he's a big, strong, physical point of attack defender that never stopped coming at you. Never stops picking you up full court. Never start like, you know, we've talked a lot about body angles with respect to Jada McDaniels and the Shake Yields-Alexander matchup and kind of like opening up his stance

and like creating these easy driving lanes you watched Neesmith he is squared up with Brunson every time he's like you're not going to get an easy drive you're going to have to shake me you're going to have to get way off to you're going to have to go way around me or you're going to have to break me down

with the move because I'm squared up and I'm right in your chest and I'm right in your face the entire time flying over screens and refusing to give up those switches in that fourth quarter order, Brunson was like, like a non-factor offensively as they leaned on those crazy running catch and shoot

McHale Bridges 3s, which haven't gone in all postseason outside of a handful of times. I don't understand why that was such a high volume option for the Knicks late. Like there, there was a lack of assertion, a lack of aggression from Brunson that I would credit Aaron Smith with. I think he wore

I think he's worn Brunson down over the course of the series. And for the first time in this entire postseason to my to my recollection we had a crunch time period where jalen brunson was a non-factor or at least not a factor in a good way and so i just wanted to credit ernie smith for his defense ben matherin we've talked about ben matherin a lot over the course of this postseason run as being one of the more high volume scores for indiana relative to the minutes that he plays and he's had a rough series but like one of the things i talked about before the series is like he doesn't put up, you know, massive box score numbers per se, but on a per minute basis

coming into the series, he was the highest score for the Pacers per 36 coming into the, to the Eastern Conference Finals in just 12 minutes of play tonight, 20 points. With his downhill athleticism as a slasher, as a cutter, as a transition threat, as an offensive rebounder, there were offensive rebounds that he didn't even get, but that he caused just by virtue of being a wrecking ball flying downhill into the lane. He was profoundly impactful in this game. It probably was a little bit of a pallet cleanser for him after what was a rough series up to this point.

The Knicks have the ability to play well in this matchup. I was thinking about it during that first half run. When they rotate and they keep Indiana in front and they chase them off the three point line and they force them to play one-on-one more often than not, they can have moments where they control the series because Brunson and Kat are like better one-on-one players. They're better at just like breaking down the defense when the defense is rotated and loaded up, right? Like when there isn't that easy opening.

And so you'll see these stretches where it's like, oh man, the Knicks got three, four stops in a row. And it's like two Brunson floaters and a cat driving and one or draws a double team that gets swung around. And all of a sudden you're like, man, the Knicks are moving a little bit. but again, they just cannot sustain that at any point in this series, not in any real way. It's like they'll have these quarters and bursts. And by the way, that's what it was like in the Celtic series. It was like short bursts of greatness that put them over the top. Same thing in the Piston series.

There were two games in that series where the Pistons had control in the fourth quarter and lost it because of a Nix burst. Like their burst, their ceiling. As I mentioned at off the top of the show, you could argue the Nix's series. is every bit as high as the Pacers, maybe even higher, depending on who you ask, right? But like, it doesn't matter if you can't sustain. And the Indiana Pacers play like the Pacers far more than the Knicks play like the best version of themselves. Way too often tonight, just not picking up the ball in transition, giving up an easy swing pass in transition for a three, bad floor balance leading to a

leakout one-on-one opportunity where Siakum's just, you know, laying one or two counter moves against a backpedaling defender and getting an easy layup or botching coverages. There was like a stretch at the beginning of the game where the Pacers just had to run a three-man action of any kind, whether it was like a stack pick and roll or a wedge pick and roll or something along those lines or double drag. And just like whatever they did, it just there was a dude wide open at the three-point line, whether it was the ball handler because no one picked him up or they switched to the ball handler but left one of the screeners slipping.

Like the attention to detail on defense all season long for the Knicks wasn't there. and when they needed it to be there for them in this postseason run, it wasn't there. And ultimately, if you're going to win in the postseason at the highest level, you've got to be a more disciplined and detail-oriented defense. The Knicks weren't. And that's going to be the thing that stands in the way this year. The series is over because the Knicks need to win three games in a row. And the Pacers are just flatly a better basketball team. Like, there's no, there's no bit of information we've received at any point this season

that would lead me to believe that the Knicks could sustain. the level they need to sustain to sustain to beat the Pacers three times in a row. I'd only give them about a 30% chance to win game five. That's a good chance. I wouldn't be surprised necessarily if the Knicks won in game five. But the problem is, historically, in my experience, teams that seem to lack belief in their ability to actually win, like, if they don't actually think they can go on the road and win, then they'll end up punting because why just emotionally, mentally, involuntarily

punting it. Not not quitting, but just there's a natural like, do we really want to like grind out this big game five so that we can go back to indie and get our ass kicked? There's like a little bit of there's a little bit of that kind of natural. Oh man, like we can't actually beat these guys. I've seen it a few times in this postseason where you just see a team that just like they feel like they blew their chance to win the series. And yeah, they have their home game with a chance to extend the series, but what's the point, you know? So again, we're going to find out. about the Knicks and their basketball character. If they win in game five, it'll tell us a lot about whether or not they want to go home

or if they want to, you know, go on vacation, if they want to go on vacation or if they want to try to win this thing. And I give them certainly a chance. But my guess right now is that the Pacers close this out in five, I think the Knicks have had their motivations apt after what was a disappointing end to this particular game. Blending Weiss's signature dynamic storytelling with the high-octane world of sports, Vice Sports brings an exciting and diverse range of programming that goes beyond the game. From action-packed live events to gripping behind-the-scenes documentaries,

to hard-hitting investigative pieces and in-depth profiles of athletes, coaches, teams. Vice Sports captures the raw energy, drama, and passion that makes sports truly unforgettable. Catch live events and other exclusive sports programs only on Vice TV. Go to ViceTV.com to find your cable channel. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, new? Huge news.

We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special.

So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about. what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down?

Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast.

or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert's Michael and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays,

the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis, and I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay. Jenchian went. I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lerner Rabakina is arguably the best player in the world.

right now and I actually can win on any surface because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. All right, guys, we're going to bring Jackson on. So what I would like to do here, because Jackson has put a great deal of thought into this, I want to just get Jackson's take. Basically, the idea is to set the stage.

I have said on the show that I think the thunder would beat up on the Pacers or the Knicks if they went to the finals. And we've had some discussion about it on the show centering around game plan, which I'm sure Jackson will mention. But I am like leaning towards OKC and five, maybe even four. So I want to give, I want to give Jackson a chance to make the case for why he thinks, at least I'm guessing you're saying at least you expect a longer, or more competitive series.

Yeah, I do think, okay, so you should be, you know, a substantial favorite and I would pick them to win the series. I just think that the Patriots have a build of the team and have some key attributes that make them potentially able to give the Thunder some problems to win a few games. And it mainly comes down to three things. One, they and Halliburton in general, as we've discussed a lot, do not turn the basketball over.

They are bottom five in the league and, you know, team turnovers. offensive turnovers. And Hallie, you know, 15 assists, no turnovers tonight is evidence of how lethal that can do, especially against a team like the Thunder that forces the most turnovers in the league really thrives in transition, as we've discussed. Second thing, the Pacers, I haven't seen a team in a while that are this committed to punishing smalls in switches with a player who's not their best, their lead guy, right? Most teams, if they get a switch, they want to take Brunson and have him go against

whoever your worst defender is. Tatum, have him go against the world. They're like, no, we don't even care. We don't need Hallie to ISO cat. If we got Pascal, if Brunson is guarding Pascal in a switch. We are going to give him the ball over and over and over and over and over. They are so, so committed to it.

It's really, it's really impressive. And the third thing is they, this is sort of more of a game plan, potentially specific thing as we've discussed, depending on how OKC guards. The Pacers, move the ball as well as any team this season, as well as any team I can remember in the last, you know, since maybe the Warriors, they move that freaking basketball.

And the OKC Thunder in their normal defense that they run that they haven't really changed to this point, maybe they'll change it against Indiana, but they haven't really changed much. They, that's how you beat them is with, is with a lot of passes, a lot of ball movement, getting your advantage and saying we want to, we get our first advantage. Let's find the best possible shot that we can get out of that advantage. the Thunder change up their defensive game plan and say just score as many points as you can. Tyree's Halliburton, that, you know, changes the calculus a little bit. But it feels like the Pacers have offensively, at least, theoretically have some of the things that are required to beat a defense as good as the Thunders.

Great breakdown. I think the thing that you hit on that is especially important is the way that the Pacers attack switches, it's different than what like Tatum and Brown were doing. they're not like oh we have this six foot tall guy in space let me face him up from 24 feet from the basket it's like it's no like Turner Turner in particular is like beating switches at the rim like at the rim he's like it's whether it's an offensive rebound or it's put a deep seal it's at the rim and then Siakum will occasionally go to like a right shoulder fade or a left shoulder fade but he's attacking those mismatches very close to the rim and that is going to be a part there. Now, the, let's go through some of the specifics. So the,

the passing the ball through Oklahoma City's defense part. This is where it gets fascinating because I actually do think there's a solid chance that marked, I trust Mark Dagenal as a very smart basketball coach to know that what Denver did, what Minnesota has done in terms of sagging and forcing She to shoot over the top and to make passing reads is the best. best way, or excuse me, with the, with the, with these other teams and how they have been really aggressive, forward aggressive against like Minnesota, like picking up ant full court, making them pass against blitzes and ball pressure and Julius Randall getting double teamed on every post up, like that worked against them. And I think he knows that Indiana is a better passing team

that doesn't turn the basketball over. But I, I trust Dagonal, to know that it may not be the best game plan, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he tried it anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if he was like, let's just see if they shit their pants. You know, like, let's, Halliburton's never played in the finals before. Let's give him Lou Dort physical defense at the point of attack.

Let's just see what happens, right? And I think the main key there is going to be, if Indiana does have success against it, will he pivot quickly? Now, to your point about having it be a longer series, let's say that they come out in game one and it's forward aggressive, overhelp, leaving weakside skips open and the Pacer steal game one, then there's a really good chance this goes six because then we're probably getting at least two, if not three, Indiana home games, and I wouldn't be shocked if they got one of those

games and now it's a six game series. So to your point, like that I can see absolutely playing a role. my main contention is that if he does make the game plan change. So again, you load up strong side, Tyre's Halliburton is just rifling skip passes over the top. They're playing with an advantage. I do think with the double, I do think with the post-ups and the switch attacking with Turner and Seacum, I think that he'll double. I think that he'll double immediately. And I think it'll be a bigger challenge for Seacum and Turner to deal with those double teams than it is in some of these

other matchups. I mean, to put it simply, we've seen a lot of people, including Yokic, kind of like fall apart. Yok, Yokch had a three game stretch where he was bad against O KC. So like there's a certain, there's a certain amount of that there too. My main contention is that inevitably, I think this series devolves down to we're staying home regarding Halliburton one-on-one, regarding actions two-on-two, three-man actions three-on-three. We're communicating through switches. We're switching everything. try scoring on us one on one over and over again. And they're just not the team that's going to make as many mistakes as the Knicks made. And that that's where I think it gets a little, it gets a little

tricky. But to your point, all it takes is Oklahoma City bringing their base game plan, Halliburton passing through it, not turning the ball over. Seacum and Turner doing damage against switches. You steal a game in OKC early in the series before the game plan shifts. Then all of a sudden, and you win a game in Indiana off the strength of your home crowd. And to your point, anything can happen. So if it's, let's say it's 2-2 going back to Oklahoma City, what if Oklahoma City shits their pants in a bunch of, in a bunch of big ways in the finals?

That's a great point. So, so, yeah. I mean, so what do you think, like, what, let me just put it to you this way. If you had to guess how OKC guards and how quickly Mark Dagonal pivots what would you expect to happen i expect dort on hallie to start both because he's the best on ball defender option as well as he's so strong that you think you if you're the thunder you're talking

yourself into we can survive a pascal switch on ludor if we feel like switching we can survive that so i think that's sort of like the big question right away is are they going to switch any of those pick and rolls with siakum or anybody and do they feel comfortable with any any of their sort of wing guard defenders in those switches. But it's going to be interesting to see OKC has so many guys. They got so many defensive bodies. They ran in the lineup at one point in the second half yesterday. They don't think they do that often, but they do sometimes where they had

Kason Wallace, Caruso, and Dorton the floor at the same time. I'm like, what are you supposed to do as an offense when those three dudes are defending your one, you're two, when you're three? It's like that is, that is terrifying. So that, and I do think the doubling is going to happen. for sure once Pascal and Miles inevitably, you know, punish some of those switches. And we will see.

It'll be very interesting to see if Aaron Neesmith can stay hot, he's a very streaky shooter. And if Andrew Nemhard can stay as playoff play Thompson because I looked up the numbers the other day. And he shoots something like 32% and three in the regular season. And over his career in the playoffs, he's over 50%. So if he can keep hitting over 50% of their threes, like they got a shot for real. I'm not even not a shot, but they got a shot to make it competitive. I think they got a chat to make a competitive. Those guys can be, can, can be, can knock down more shots than Kaysen Wallace,

Lou Dort. One of the things we haven't even talked about yet that I think is worth mentioning. By the way, guys, like my, I have not done any prep yet for this potential series. So I haven't watched, gone back to rewatch their regular season matchups. I could very well change my mind. My initial gut feeling was that the Timberwolves would beat Oklahoma. city. I gave them a slight edge in my initial gut feeling. Then I went to watch the film and I was like, oh, like, I don't think they're going to be able to get Julius Randall the ball in places where he can

score. And I don't think they're going to be able to go to Nasbury on the block. So, you know, maybe I changed my mind after seeing some stuff. The, let's talk through the Pacers on defense in this matchup for a second. One of the things that I found interesting in the film of the Timberwolves' Thunder series is Jada McDaniels has been awful. on Shea like straight up awful. Like this is the second straight year where he's been like straight up non-effective on ball against a star in the conference finals. Now I, my theory is is that it's matchup based in the sense that I think Luca was way

too big and strong for him. And I think Shea is too fast for him. And so there's this other conversation to have, which is like our wiry six eight defensive wings just like not versatile enough to succeed in the posy. if you're not strong enough for one guy and you're not quick enough for another guy. Yeah, exactly. And like, it's bad because, like, I would argue those two series have swung on Jaden's complete inability to make the stars uncomfortable from the other team.

And then looking at the Pacers, it's probably going to be Neesmith. And Neesmith, like we talked about earlier, Jaden is, we just, we were talking about it in the show. Like, Jaden's stances have been so frustrating for me watching. watching on film as he's like conceding driving angles to Shea. And I think Neesmith, if he can square him up, navigate screens, well, keep him in front, force him to beat over the top shooter without them having to overdo the help. But like there were a lot of stretches in tonight's game where the rotation, like the defensive backside rotations for the Pacers are super impressive.

Seacum had three or four crazy weekside closeouts on OG and Anobie where he chased him off the line. Like an OG hit a fucking crazy step back over him on one of them. but like his ability to help and then rotate there you could see i could talk myself into the pacer's being an interesting defensive matchup for the thunder because turner can protect the rim uh see acum's an excellent weak side rotational player like even haliburton i think is underrated as kind of like a dude does his job on defense kind of guy and then what if knee smith just slides his feet well and contains against she i'm going to go ahead and say

Jackson that you've convinced me. I think that the Pacers have a better chance to make it competitive against the Thunder than than I was giving them credit for. That said, I would still be really surprised if they won the series.

But yeah, I think you're right about the fact that the Pacers are just a really good team that you could argue just Indiana being in the right place all the time as like a help and recover rotation team will inherently cause as a bunch of 22-year-olds to suck in the finals one night. So this is the other thing I was going to say that I forgot.

It does feel like because OKC is so smart and so fast and they're so connected on both ends, and you really have to be well-connected as a unit to beat them, which the Timberwolves are not. The Timberwolves are the farthest thing for well-connected. They're very talented, but they got Julius Randall and Rudy Gobert. They're not going to be well-connected, right? And so I think the Pacers are superly synergistically in flow, right? right now. And that is we're going to go a long way against a team as smart. That's a good point.

I think I think that I think that that is the key there is like they're older, they're more experienced. They there's a version of this where they just do all the right things into NBA finals games and the 22 year olds just kind of struggle in the moment. So there's a version of that too. And into your point, like if they run and they move the ball well, they're going to get open threes, especially against Oklahoma City's base game plan. It's going to be interesting. I'm excited to dive into the film. Obviously, we'll wait until both series actually finish before we do that. But that's going to be a really fascinating series. I'm super interested in it. But Jackson, thanks for taking the time to prep all of that. What do you say?

We just head over to game to playback. Sound good to you? Cool. All right, guys, that's all we have for tonight. As always, we sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. I'm headed over to playback. Again, that's playback.tv slash hoops tonight. We'll be taking callers, taking questions, stuff like that. As always, we appreciate you guys. for supporting us and supporting the show. We will see you tomorrow night for game five of the Thunder and the Timberwolves.

What's up, guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys you guys supporting us, but if you could take a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it.

The volume. Hey, guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created a... our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast?

Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but, you know, tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam, it's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast Point Game. playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was crying. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Mark keep coming to, he's like,

you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is, getting a racist statue removed. something that should be a whole lot easier than it is, getting a new one put up in its place. I'm Akela Hughes, and Rebel Spirit Season 2 is about both of those things. As I was watching these statues come down, I was thinking about what it meant that I grew up in a majority of Black City, in which there were more homages to enslavers than there were to enslave people. Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.