The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - LIVE: Pacers Stun Knicks and Take 2-0 Lead In ECF

Episode Date: May 24, 2025

Jason reacts live after the Indiana Pacers stun Madison Square Garden to take a 2-0 lead with a win over the New York Knicks. He discusses another impressive game from Tyrese Haliburton and Pascal Siakam to overcome strong performances from Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns.    Follow the show on Playback for future “Aftershow” content: https://www.playback.tv/hoopstonight    #Volume #Herd See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas.

We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it. But, you know, tired and sick. Tired and sick.

Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. Help an Acapella band with their Between Songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the ice. Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Edwin Castro, also known as Castro 1021.

And I'm Kunky, his best friend and business manager. And we've got a new show called The 1021 Podcast. I'm taking you behind the scenes on how I became one of Twitch's most popular streamers. We also love sports. And with the World Cup right around the corner, we'll be breaking down the biggest storylines ahead of the big tournament here in the USA. Listen to the 1021 podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Joey Dardano.

And on my new podcast, Hope from a Hypocrite, I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with thoughtful solutions. Sike, I'm a comedian. I'm not qualified to give good advice. Join me and my comedian friends as we riff, rant, recommend some of the most legally dubious advice known to me. This is Help from a Hypocrite, the worst advice from the day. dumbest people you know. Listen to help from Hippocrite Wednesdays on the Iheart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The volume. The NBA finals are almost here at every play could be the one that changes everything.

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For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see dkng.c.c.org. Here at the volume, happy Friday, everybody. hope all you guys are having a great night. Well, the Indiana Pacers have done it again, stealing two games on the road to take a 2-0 lead back to Indiana after doing the same thing to Cleveland. A little bit of a reverse in the Cleveland series.

They showed that they looked like the better team in game one. And then they get punched in the face in game two, but somehow steal the game. And here in the Knicks series, the exact opposite. They get punched in the face in game one, come back to steal that game, and then kind of a wire to wire, we're just better than you guys type of performance in game two

and what was a must win game for the Knicks that they did not get. We're going to be breaking down that series from the perspective of both teams, talk a little bit about some of the stuff with Carl Anthony Towns and how Tom Thibodeau went away from him for the most part down the stretch of this game and kind of some realities about what Mitchell Robinson looks like and how it's a proof of concept

for what this Knicks team could be in the big picture as we look to the future. Obviously, the series isn't over, but they're in a very tough spot. We're going to be leading the show tonight talking about some of the similarities between the Pacers and the Thunder. I think there are some some tendencies that these two teams have that everybody in the league should be looking to copy. So we're going to be talking a lot about big picture stuff with both of these teams, a couple of specific details from this game. At the tail end of the show, we're going to take 10, 15 minutes of mailbag questions from the chat. So make sure you guys get your questions in the chat. And then when we wrap up here

tonight. We're heading over to playback. Again, that's playback.com. TV slash hoops tonight where we're going to have about 45 minutes to an hour of an after show. Well, it's very informal. We take callers. We watch film. We just have fun talking about basketball for an extra hour at the tail end of the evening. So make sure you guys head over there with us when we finish up here tonight. You guys know the joke before we get started. Subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on Twitter at underscore Jason LT. So you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast fee wherever you get your podcast under Hoops Tonight.

It's also super helpful if you leave a rating and a review on that front. Jackson's doing great work on our social media feeds on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. Make sure you guys follow us there for more content throughout the year. And last but at least, keep dropping those mailback questions in the chat so that we can get to them at the tail end of the show tonight. All right, let's talk some basketball. So, you know, in the playback session last night, we were talking about the Thunder. And one of the things we were talking about is that in addition to just being super talented, they are also a very well-coached team that maximizes their talent, right?

Like we've had a lot of really talented teams come through the league. I would argue Minnesota and New York are two examples of teams that on paper look extremely talented. There's a reason why there was a lot of buzz surrounding Minnesota's ability to potentially win that series. There's a reason why, even though, you know, the Pacers have looked so good, there was a lot of buzz surrounding the Knicks winning their series. It's because you look at it and it's Jalen Brunson and it's Mikhail Bridges and it's O'G. Annobe and it's Carl Anthony Towns and it's Mitchell Robinson and Josh Hart, a bunch of guys that are respected big game players in this league with Minnesota,

like a four-time defensive player of the year, Nas Reid, one of the best bench players in the NBA, Julius Randall has been having a magnificent postseason, Anthony Edwards, all of these elite perimeter defenders like Dante Divenzo and Nikiel Alexander Walker and J.D. McDaniels, in theory, they should be able to compete with the Oklahoma City Thunder. They've gotten their ass kicked twice. They've looked like they've been the team that doesn't have the right game plan. They've looked like the team that doesn't have confidence

that is operating far below what their capability is. Meanwhile, I think we can all agree that the Oklahoma City team that is loaded up with dudes that are 26 or younger outside of Alex Caruso, looks comfortable, confident, like a veteran basketball team. They are achieving their individual ceiling or their team ceiling in this postseason run. The Pacers. There's a lot of talent on that team. And we could go down the line on every single player and their strengths and the things that

they do to make this engine work. But ultimately, when you look at that roster, it's Tyrese Halliburton, who's somewhere around like the seventh to 10th best player in the league. league depending on who you ask. I'll stretch that to seven to 15th because I'm sure there are some people that are lower on him than others, but he's not what you would consider to be a top tier superstar. Pascal Seaccombe is a secondary star that I think is a very, very good player, but certainly not a player that people are looking at as one of the very best players in this league. And then just a bunch of role players. And yet they are going to win an Eastern conference that had two teams that

won 60-something games that has Janice and Tenacompo and Jason Tatum and Jalen Brunson and Donovan Mitchell and so many of the elite players in the world. And that not only are they going to most likely win this series now and go to the finals, they're doing it in dominant fashion. They've lost two games. They've had home court in zero of the series. They've won every single road game. They are six in a row, I believe. They are going to get to the to the finals. Most likely was somewhere between two and four losses in a conference that was stacked with talent. And what stands out to me is when you really look at these two teams, the Pacers and the Thunder, there's one specific concept I want to dive into that I think allows them to reach their

stealing more consistently than the other teams in the league. And it's just a, attention to detail. I've been thinking a lot about this over the course of the last several seasons as the Lakers have gone through a coaching change, but I've been thinking about it a lot in the last couple of days stemming from Chegildis Alexander's MVP interview and the conversation he had about Mark Dagonal and the fact that Mark just is super obsessive about details and how it actually gets kind of annoying. I joke about this all the time on the show, but like playing winning basketball actually sucks. There's a lot like, it's not fun sprinting up and down the floor, nonstop.

Any of you guys who have ever played organized basketball, no. There's always that day. Four or five practices in at the beginning of the season when you're tired. And like you start running like some sort of full court drill. And everyone's just a little lethargic. And everyone's just having a little bit of a hard time getting up and down the floor. and the coach throws a hissy fit, just blows his whistle, and gets all pissed off and makes you get on the baseline and run.

Why? Because he knows you're not running. Running is the foundational concept that makes the pacer's great. And they do it more often than anybody in the NBA. It's not fun. They just do it regardless. They do it because it's in their basketball character. crashing, relocating, paying attention to the details, picking up full court. That sucks.

T.J. McConnell had an interview the other day talking about how the only reason he did it at the beginning of his career is because he wanted to stand out. And he felt like he couldn't stand out unless he did something that no one else was doing. Lou Dort picks up full court. Aaron Neesmith, T.J. McConnell, Andrew Nemhardt, they pick up full court. Who else is doing that? there are there is low hanging fruit in basketball games all of it is stuff that sucks it's physical wear and tear lots of running sprinting cutting jumping things that are not as fun as playing the you know the funer parts of

the game scoring the basketball shot creation attacking off the catch all of those fun things playing in transition on offense there's there they these teams relentlessly hunt that low-hanging fruit. What does low-hanging fruit look like in the NBA? Ball pressure is a simple example. That's a way that you can make your opponent uncomfortable. Guaranteed they will be less comfortable in the game if they have to turn their man,

if they have to turn and make four counter moves just to get across half court. It will make them uncomfortable. It'll wear them out over the course of games. That is a margin that if you have the depth and the on-court personnel to handle, you can just decide to do, practice it all season,

and it dramatically increases your chances of winning. Transition, just in general, running the floor, leakouts and kick-aheads. Those are things that every team in the NBA can do, and if you do them, you are guaranteed to score more efficiently. On average, NBA offenses are about 20% more efficient

in transition than they are in the half-court. So all you have to do is hunt as many transition opportunities is possible, and you will increase your offense's performance. But you've got to from day one in October, sit down with your team and be like, we're going to run nonstop all season. That shit's going to suck. But we have to make it part of who we are as a basketball team. And they do it every single time.

The Pacers manufacture so many transition opportunities with kickaheads. there was a big one in the third quarter today where the Knicks like got to stop that led to a runout bucket that was a it was Josh Hart got like just ended up with the basketball lays it up crowds going crazy Tyrese sprints back on defense grabs it out of the net quick turns and just rifles a rainbow pass up the court makes its way to Obie Toppin and he's it was top in or Seacum I can't remember exactly which one it was but there they are laying the ball up on the other side of the court. That's just part of their basketball character manifesting in a complete, like,

they erased a big momentous Knicks play just by doing the same thing that they do every single possession. They stole game one because down the stretch, we watched the footage, we went over it on a film session, the Knicks let go with the rope. They stopped paying attention to detail. O'G Annanobie, too passive in his drop coverage. Brunson and Kat, a couple of bad defensive rotations. Josh Hart gives up a back cut.

You lose the game. What were the Pacers doing that time? Picking up full court, pushing the ball up the floor quickly, and then when they get in the half court running their offense quickly and efficiently, the same way they did throughout the entire game. There are so many different examples, just like both of these teams don't turn the basketball over. that's a simple thing you can do.

That dramatically improves your chances of winning basketball games. We were looking at it in the Thunder Timberwolf series last night when we were on playback. The Timberwolves, or the Thunder are far and away the best team in the league at turning their opponents over and scoring on it. And they are far and away the best team in the league at not turning the basketball over and not giving up points off those turnovers. Every game, there's like a 15-something. and point advantage they have just in points off of turnovers. It's like you're starting the game down by 15 points as the opponent because of them constantly capitalizing on that low-hanging fruit. I think the Pacers capitalize on a lot of low-hanging fruit in the half court on offense

too. And this stems from just Tyrese Halliburton and his relentless advantage hunting. I talk about this all the time with young players all the way to the highest level of pro. If you have them attack against a set defender versus a defender sprinting at them, their efficiency skyrockets when they have the defender sprinting at them. There's not a player in the NBA that is more relentless with just simple swings and skips and kick-aheads to just hunt close-out opportunities. Tyree Saliburton has his team playing with an advantage all night long. and so they capitalize on that margin.

I even think just, we were talking about it before the broadcast, finding 16 game players, finding players that are the kinds of guys that are comfortable in this playoff setting. That means they have to have a certain amount of strength and physicality to their game. Basketball IQ comes at a huge premium this time of year, the ability to solve the puzzle, so to speak, that each possession presents.

Confidence, not wavering in your work and believing in yourself in this environment. Andrew Nemhard somehow has made a career out of being a mediocre shooter in the regular season and then just turning into a deadly three-point shooter when he gets to this time of year. It's confidence. Guys who play defense. If you don't play defense, you can't stay on the floor in games like this. The thunder and the Pacers, you look down their roster and both of them have more than five guys that they trust. Meanwhile, you look at New York and it's like, like we can't defend with cat, we're struggling to score with Josh. Or if it was, you know, the warriors struggled finding a fifth man.

The Nuggets, their top four is fine. They couldn't find a fifth guy that they trusted. I just think that the thunder and the Pacers are an excellent example of two teams that are maximizing their potential because of their willingness to capitalize on all of the controllables. and then from there, their stars lift them over the top, which we'll talk about in a second. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news.

What's the news, name? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special.

So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. We were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas.

And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel.

Help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 in the TikTok podcast. network on TikTok. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis, and I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris, every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay.

Jenchian win. I mean, she went down to three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lerner Rabakina is. arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any surface because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Now the Thunder, they have the combination of that maximizing their talent and the absurd on-paper talent. That's why they're such a substantial favor to win the title at this point. But I think what the Pacers have done and what the Thunder have done are an example, or is the example that everyone should look to follow. Now, this is where the advantage creation piece steps in. Because capitalizing on low-hanging fruit can only get you so far. One of the things we talked about a lot over the course the last couple of years is like

the ideal construct for a NBA basketball team. And obviously there's so many unicorns out there that like, you can't talk about an ideal construct surrounding Yokic. There's no one else in the league like Yokic. Or Steph. There's no one else in the league like Steff. Or Yonis. There's no one else in the league like Yonis.

But there are simple concepts within the modern NBA that theoretically every player can capitalize on, right? In a ball screen. If they're in a low drop coverage and you set good screens, there are opportunities to score against the drop. Pull up threes, floaters, mid-range jump shots, things along those lines. Or you're in a deep drop coverage, the pick and pop should, in theory, be open every single time. You come up to the level.

Now the roll to the pocket pass should be open every single time. They're tagging the roller? Well, then the skip pass should be open every single time. Oh, you're switching? Okay. Well, then now I've got a big guy on my Tyreys Halliburton guard. or I've got a small guy on, you know, a Turner or a Seacom around the basket. And so we talked about these concepts, a skill guard, a player that can consistently make the

reeds within those pick and roll situations based on what the coverage is dictating. And then having what's one of the position groups that I always talk about, the matchup attacking forward. This is a player that is primarily kind of like a tip of the spear. He's not a guy that's going to be running a ton of on-ball action. But the result of action, whether it be transition cross-matches or a ball screen that forces a switch, is going to end up in a lot of situations where Siakum or your matchup attacking Ford gets to attack a player who's either too small to guard him or too slow to guard him. And that's what the beauty of the Pascal Seacom trade was for the Pacers.

Tyrese Halliburton was the ideal skill guard. The player that relentlessly hunted advantages, the player that could score against drop coverage, that could make all the reeds against aggressive pick and roll coverages, and when his hamstring is healthy, is a deadly switchbeater. And that has made him the quintessential kind of like on-ball skill guard in the NBA, right? But what they were lacking was a player they could pitch the ball to on the other side of those actions. A player that could be like, okay, their bigs are defending well on switches. Tyrese is having a rough shooting night.

He's five for 16. He's three for 10 from three. he's having a little bit of a hard time beating Mitchell Robinson on switches. Well, who's the guy you can go to that is on an island, get a bucket guy that can either bully smalls to the basket or can beat Biggs with quickness and speed. And that's what Pascal Seaccom is. Gets going in this game with transition leakouts, just that relentless kick ahead passing that Indiana uses. And then just countless times, just like last year against Josh Hart, just beating up, Josh Hart against switches, drawing fouls against Carl Anthony Towns in space, the ability to either get big guys out of position or get small guys into a situation

where they can't handle how big he is, he just can score. And that was not working for the Pacers in the first game. That's one of the things that's so crazy about this one. The Knicks looked like they were in control of the Pacer Biggs in mismatches in game one. Not in this game. They got torched. 39 points for Pascal Seacom, just an absolutely monster night. And then in the fourth quarter, it was the pick and roll ball handlers.

I thought T.J. McConnell had a brilliant stretch to start the fourth quarter. That was where the first margin was. You look at this game, it was very back and forth. No team was really separating. The Nicks, or the Pacers finally built a little bit of separation in the early fourth quarter off T.J. McConnell ball screens. They ran a drop coverage. He beat it with a little mid-range jump shot.

Then they started blitzing him or showing at the level, and he just beat Robinson and Kat over and over again, just making simple reads. Like four or five times in a row to start the quarter, generated a great shot for his team. On the other end of the floor, Mikhail Bridges was a little bit cold to start the fourth quarter. He did hit a few mid-range jumpers in the middle of the fourth quarter,

but Mikhail couldn't keep up. All of a sudden, we had a little bit of margin. And then when Tyreys Halliburton came in, just a steady diet of that textbook high ball screen attack attacking the bigs attacking brunson he had multiple driving kicks against brunson making mitchell robinson pay for sagging off of miles turner or sagging off of pascal siacom just beating them with the same the same decision-making tree that he's been using his entire NBA career and once they built that margin it just ended up being too much for the

next to overcome they had they almost pulled a little bit of magical comeback of their own there on the stretch, but ultimately it's just really difficult to make to make up for a 10 point deficit in the final minutes like they were dealing with. The Knicks have a little bit of a problem. When they play Carl Anthony Towns, they're nowhere near good enough defensively to keep up with this Pacer's team. They got rolled with Cat on the floor tonight, even with him having extended stretches of successful offense, especially in the first half. But then with Mitchell Robinson, even though he brings a ton of good in a late game situation,

it's like, well, he can't shoot free throws and he's got a little bit of a tendency to sag off of shooters. He got burned by Seaccom and by Turner in the fourth quarter of this game. So on the one hand, it's frustrating because I don't think they have an answer for this series. But I think there's some reality

to the proof of concept that this has been in this postseason run, which is, I think, Mikhail Bridges and O'GNanobie and Josh Hart is fly around forwards that can rotate and wreck havoc defensively. And O.G. and O.G. and O.G. and O. G.N.O.B. is a weak side score. And McHale Bridges is a guy who can run action when Jalen Brunson's off the floor. And Jalen Brunson proving himself over and over again over the last few years as one of the more reliable playoff shot creators. All of that is fine. But they need to have an option at center that can anchor all of this defensively. and that's where it gets tricked.

I don't know that Carl Anthony Towns fits into the theoretical championship version of what the Knicks can be. But I think we've seen enough out of Mitchell Robinson, a extremely talented but flawed player, that if they get a legitimate center, that all of a sudden this makes a lot of sense. And I think that's something that they need to look into this summer as a vehicle with which to improve this roster. Can the Knicks come back to win this series? They certainly can. The Pacers, after winning the first two games in Cleveland, came home and got their butt kicked.

And game four, you know, obviously they come out and utterly dominate the Cavs. It's going to be really difficult to get this done. But the Knicks have shown an ability to win on the road in this postseason run. I do think switching is their best option. When they switch, it puts the onus on matchup,

attacking. I like that as an option more than blitzing like they did for stretches of the fourth quarter or high drop, low drop, any of those sorts of things. I would switch and then you've got to contain the ball and you've got to rotate. But at this point, like, I thought coming into the series that the Pacers were just better than the Knicks on both ends of the four. I thought they were a better offense and I thought they were a better defense. And I think they've pretty clearly shown that to this point through two games. And now you've got to beat them four times at a five with three of those five games being in Indiana. And it's just going to be a lot for them to overcome.

Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, huge news? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast.

Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys?

I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast.

But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them.

Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast. network on TikTok. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis, and I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris, every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay. Jen she went down to three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted.

She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lerner Rabakina is. arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any surface because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital 1, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. All right, Jackson's going to come on and we're going to take a couple of questions before we get out of here for the night. Let's do it. Let's do it. We've got a couple

super chat questions to start with. First one, super chat from Kobus. Hi, Jason. Do you think the Knicks offense is too is so isocentric? It feels like they relied too much on Kat and sort of expand on that. If they do end up moving cat, do you think that helps that problem or hurts that problem? So I think that there's a certain amount, like both teams did more switching with their fives tonight. New York more than Indiana did. Miles Turner was doing more of like kind of like a read and react switch, meaning like he kind of exists in a higher drop. And then if the defender got or the on ball guy got wiped out by the screen, it would just turn into a peel switch or if the defender got over the top and he would like try to recover. But inevitably with the amount of switching that,

that the teams do, there's going to be a certain amount of, of ISO ball that's just part of NBA basketball. Also, like when you really get into it, Jalen Brunson, when he's got that left shoulder fade going the way that he had it going tonight. Like there's a certain point where like that's some of their most reliable offense is that sort of that sort of thing. There are opportunities to attack in driving kick situations. The problem is, is it's always going to bog down when you have non-shooters on the floor.

So for instance, Mikhail Bridge is just continually being incapable of hitting catch and shoot threes in this postseason run. That's going to kill a driving kick attack. Josh Hart being a guy that's a little bit hesitant. attempts to take catch and shoot three point shots. That can kill driving kick attack, right? And so one of the things that makes the Indiana Pacers ball and player movement work is every dude on the floor will take that shot and we'll take it and make it. And so it allows their rotation sequences to work better. There's a lot of sequences with the Knicks where you're like, I kind of want Jaylon Brunson taking this ISO jump shot

because otherwise it's going to be Mikhail Bridges unnaturally jumping super high and kicking his legs on a random catch and shoot three like he's getting chased off the line. And so I think there are some realities to the Nick Rock, Nick's roster. My thing is like in general, you want to keep everybody involved in that ISO attack, but also down the stretch of this game, Tibbs wasn't trusting Kat. And really down the stretch, if you guys really get into it, Brunson was scoring. It just they couldn't get stops when they needed to. What do they give up 60 something points in the second half? Yeah, it's it's a sort of a tough problem that they have. It is their best option, but you can't do it too much. It's like that that balance is sort of the ever existing question for all of these sort of heliocentric players and teams, honestly.

Exactly. Another super chat question. This one from John, huge Knicks fan. But as soon as Janus got eliminated, I immediately thought about a cat for Janus trade thoughts. Obviously, as everyone said, it was responding to John in the chat. The Knicks would need to add a lot to their side of the deal. But just as like the bucks are probably going to trade Janus and the Knicks may want to trade cat sort of mind. for mind space.

Yeah, it'd be really difficult because of just all the different salaries involved. Like you'd almost want, you'd want cat and you'd want one of their wings. And it's just really difficult to make all of that work. But just in theory, like I love the idea of having just a monstrous defensive forward, kind of like anchoring all of this.

But to me, like with Brunson being a big time pick and roll player and with the overall rotational ability that they have, at the forward position. And I honestly think that Brunson and OG and Mikhail is plenty of scoring ability. I'm not necessarily worried about that. I would be targeting more of like a traditional center. I would want like a seven foot tall, switchable, rim protecting kind of like mobile big,

a guy that can be a vertical spacer. I do think we underrated just how much Isaiah Hartenstein. Like we're going to talk about this, you know, like we were talking about this at the beginning of the show in terms of low hanging fruit. Like Isaiah Hartenstein unlocked a whole backcut game for the for the thunder this year. There was a big one in our film session this morning

where Shea back cut, Hardstein, hit him. It generated a wide open three for Lou Dort. Like there's a certain amount of of skill that you want at that position too. Like that's why I think the cat Mitchell Robinson dynamic has been super fascinating. If you could somehow take

some of cats offensive viability and combine it with Mitchell Robinson as a defensive weapon, all of a sudden, this whole thing makes a ton of sense. And in order to make that happen, like you need a starting caliber player at that center spot, right?

Now, another way you can look at it too is like, from the standpoint of payroll, you can't have Brunson making a ton of money, OG making a ton of money, Mikhail making a ton of money, and a center making a ton of money, and so they might have to make an even bigger picture decision about which one of the forwards kind of fits into that mix.

But I like the idea of Brunson being anchored by like a monstrous defensive center. I think it just covers for a lot of their weaknesses on that end of the floor. It feels like because of the Mavericks roster, everyone is designing fake trades around Daniel Gafford or Derek lively. And for a good reason, because I think those guys are exactly what you're describing. It would be very, very helpful for a lot of teams, including this one. It's just a, it's like a floor.

razor. You know what I mean? And like, yeah, there's, it's tough because you can't have like, like we saw Miles Turner for instance, like really struggle for extended stretches of, of game one, right? There, it needs to be a certain type of center. I've seen like Nick Claxton is a name that gets thrown around a million times this, uh, over the course of this, uh, this season. And like Nick Claxton to me is like the bottom. Yeah. Any player below Nick Claxton's level, it doesn't make sense to be paying that much for that type of player. But like, I would be probing all over the place. I'd be, I'd be, I'd be calling on, uh, I'd be calling on Nick Claxton.

I'd be calling on, um, uh, what's his face? I'm blanking all of a sudden. This is how brain fried I am through the postseason run. But, um, what's his face from the jazz? Walker Kessler. Um, Walker Kessler, excuse me. Um, I'd be calling on just like dudes that are in that kind of mid to late 20s that, that are just like rock solid centers

that you could potentially anchor with this group because I think I think there's been enough that we've seen from their core players that this can work. They're just clearly not good enough defensively with Carl Anthony Towns on the floor and that's a death sentence. All right, let's move a little bit to the Pacer's side. Question is, given the Pacer's depth

and Halberton's ability to run the offense without turning it over, aren't the Pacers the best team, the team that's best equipped to beat OKC? the problem is I view it all through the the scope of matchups right um every it's like we were talking about it earlier with like golden state versus Minnesota or versus Oklahoma City you know like there's a certain amount of like one team might be perfectly equipped to be another team vice versa the I talked about going into the postseason like there's a certain amount of perimeter size and playmaking and shooting that you need to beat Oklahoma City and really

the only teams that I thought had that combination, like legitimate size advantages at multiple positions, the ability to process quickly against a like a swarming defense and to knock down the catch and shoot threes that you get out of it. The only three teams that I thought had great chances to beat Oklahoma City were Denver, the Lakers, and the Celtics because the Lakers have LeBron and Luca that can attack their smalls, their elite processors, and they could put out lineups that could shoot. The Celtics, Tatum and Brown, the ability to attack size mismatches, the ability to space the floor and shoot. Denver through Aaron Gordon and through Nicola Yokic and even Jamal Murray to a certain extent, the size and strength positionally, the processing

ability to get the ball out and the ability to shoot. And all three of those teams are eliminated. And, you know, it's like all of them were flawed in their own ways to begin with as we look back. And so, honestly, the problem for the Pacers is they have. the processing and they have the shooting, they don't have the size. They don't have the size to cause Oklahoma City problems on the perimeter. I see it being a series where Neesmith, Nemhard and Halliburton are just literally in jail all series long because you could not conceptualize a more well-equipped defense to handle all of their speed on the perimeter. This is the other team that loves to run more than anybody else in the league. They're switchable. They're

switchable. They're well coached. Their attention to detail is fantastic. They don't turn the ball over. They're never going to let go of the rope the way the Knicks do. Like to me, essentially the, the, the Thunder are just a substantially better version of the Pacers and a deeper and more versatile version. So like I'm going to be honest with you guys, I would be stunned at this point if the Thunder didn't win the title. Like absolutely stunned if they didn't win the title. Another sort of question about the Pacers. How sustainable do you think this place style is for the long term. Do you think they can be the new team to beat in the East with Boston seemingly falling off or is this sort of run and gun style going to either get scouted out?

Is there, are their players going to not going to be able to hold up? Do you think this is sort of a long term big picture formula for the Pacers to sort of be the Kings of the East? I think they're going to be near the top of the East year and year out, like a team that's consistently like a conference finalist kind of kind of situation. The problem is, is like, when it comes to the simple art of just getting buckets against elite defensive players, like let's look at the Thunder series, for example. Like, I think in order to beat the Thunder, you've got to be able to have a guy that, like, they simply cannot guard.

And like, we saw that, like, when we'd watch the Lakers against him, it's like, they cannot guard Luca. when you watch Yokic against them. It's like they cannot guard Nicola Yokic. I'm not sitting here saying like Pascal Seacom can't score on the Thunder. Of course he can. But is he going to be 39 points on 23 shots against the Thunder? Probably not. You know, like Tyrese Halliburton is a capable switchbeater.

But is he going to be able to stare down Chet Holmgren and Lou Dort and Kaysan Wallace and like get tough buckets. over and over again the way that you need to, I just don't think so. And so, like, I think ultimately Indiana's ceiling is based on the fact that they don't have a singular top tier bucket getter type of dude that, like, is invincible to a certain defensive scheme.

Like, I think the thunder will most likely end up just doing a great deal of switching against Indiana and just live with the results and believe that their defenders are going to do just fine against Seaccom and Halliburton. In order for Indiana to like truly be what I would consider to be like a top tier contender in this league, I think they would need a better version of Seacom.

Like if it was like a truly indomitable offensive force at the forward position, like let's just say it was like a Kevin Durant, LeBron type of guy at the four. Now I'm looking at that as a team that can like legitimately beat the very best teams in the league in the championship round. but I I'm just concerned about their ability against against an Oklahoma City defense to to really create shots when things bogged down. Yeah, you need a better version of Seacommer. You need Ben Matherin to become this like super versatile scoring machine basically.

Yeah, a better version of Andrew Nemhard. Like a version of Andrew Nemhard that is like, to the point, indomitable. So like if Ben Matherin became like somewhere around the 20th, to 25th best player in the league and played at the two next to Halliburton. And as a freaky athletic guard was kind of there, this is the guy that no one can stop him from getting to his spot. And like you just kind of have to hope he misses kind of thing. Like that's where it gets tough.

I'm just there's a lot of Indiana, a lot of what Indiana does capitalizes on natural openings that occur in basketball games and the Thunder just don't give you a lot of natural openings. The one thing that will be interesting, and I'll say this just up front, the Thunder are very much like a load up the strong side, ball pressure, aggressive defense, and Tyrese Halliburton is an excellent over-the-top passer. So I am curious to see how Mark Dagonal actually structures his defensive game plan. Because we have seen coaches like Chris Finch go like,

we're going to play our base regular season scheme against the Thunder, and even though it's like legitimately the exact opposite of what Denver just showed us works. And if Mark Dagonal does the exact same thing, and Tyrese is just throwing skip passes to Seacum and Niece Smith for the entire first two games of the series and they get a bunch of wide open threes, then yeah, like they can steal a game or two. But like, I think ultimately Dagnol will read the room

and be like, what we really need to do is kind of stay glued to everybody individually here and trust that our individual defenders are too much for them to be able to handle. For sure. Last question for tonight's YouTube. stream. Thoughts on home court advantage in the playoffs. It seems like it hasn't mattered very much so far. I think, you know, I've seen a lot of talk about this. I don't have a real feel for what is causing it. Because statistically, I shouldn't even say statistically, it's just in the win loss. There's an obvious reality to the fact that road teams are more comfortable now than they used to be.

I don't have like a reasoning for it though because the game is more predicated on jump shooting than ever. So in theory like comfort shooting at home should play an even bigger role. But if I had to, if you, you know, like said, okay, you've got to assign it to something. I would assign it to the physicality. I think the overall physicality increase in the playoffs in the last couple of years has in general dragged every game closer and lower scoring. which has made every game a little bit more of a coin flip than some of the game, the kind of like trading off blowouts that we saw in years past. And then also before we're done here tonight, I had a buddy of mine.

Shout out to NMZ Hoops, a guy that does great work covering the league on Twitter. Sent me this question. He said, at this point, this is a question from the Minnesota series, should Minnesota abandon Rudy Gobert setting picks and go to more guard-to-guard action? Rudy can hold space in the dunker spot. All he'd have to do is catch and finish rather than make decisions in the short roll. Have Ant Target Shea for fatigue and foul trouble using more threatening screeners. So a couple things.

This is a really interesting question. We talked a little bit about this last night with the ghost screens. They were getting clean looks or clean-ish looks for Dante Devenzo in particular slipping out of ghost screens. Targeting Shea in particular, like the specific emphasis here from NMZ, is that threatening screeners part because they are hedging and recovering with Shea. So it's not like Ant's going to be able to just pick on Shea and switches and just look to attack him one on one. At least not as easily as it could happen from like a transition cross match or some other, an offensive rebound cross match, something along those lines.

But there are openings that they can get by having guards slip out of screens, not just with Dante or whoever it is who's being guarded by Shea, but also inverted because they ran some inverted action where, like Dante would get screened by Ant and then pitch it back to Ant. Oklahoma City has a little bit of a natural tendency to linger on the ball with their second defender anyway, kind of regardless of who it is. It's just part of their kind of basketball identity as a very aggressive turnover forcing type of team.

So I think you could even get Ant some initial advantages from him slipping out of inverted ball screens. But my thing is like, I think the only chance that the Timberwolves have to win this series is to attack off the catch with Ant, to attack off the catch with Julius. Those clean catch and shoot looks Julius got in the first round, or first half of game one. Ant in general in this postseason has been so deadly attacking off the catch.

The only way you're going to do that is early in the possession to get into your drive and kick because you can't be pitching it to the corner with four or five seconds on the shot clock. The ball will never get worked back around. So getting the ball up the floor quickly with pace, and then using a guard screen, as a simple example of to his point, instead of having Rudy trying to operate out of a four on three, which has been an absolute disaster, have a more skilled player start your four on three.

So for instance, let's say that Dante screens on ants right side and quickly slips out of it to the left wing. Shea lingers for a second. Pitch it to him. Dante needs to rack left immediately, right on the catch. Beat the hedge. The hedge are recovering in this case, Shea. Now you're in an advantage. manage creating situation. I do trust Dante to make the next read. From there, it's on Aunt Julius to quickly figure out their spacing and get to a spot where they can attack on the catch. And I do think from there they can have some more opportunities. But to NMZ's point, like, I am 100% in agreement, like get the guy who's leading the four on three to be a higher level offensive player than Rudy Gobert. And so having those guards slipping out of screens is a

simple way to get those attacks. They just need to not immediately settle for the three because there was a little bit of a tendency in game two for them to slip out of the go screen and take the movement three, which is not a terrible shot, but it's a tough shot. And I wouldn't necessarily lean on that unless there's, you know, five seconds on the shot clock. Attack off of that. Get into your drive and kick. Try to generate some more off the catch opportunities for it and Julius. All right, guys. That is all we have for tonight on YouTube. We are heading over to playback. Again, Playback.tv slash hoops tonight. No, Jackson tonight will just be me over there,

but we're going to be taking some collars and watching some film. Again, as always, I sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting me and supporting us and supporting the show. I will see you guys on Playback here in just a few minutes. What's up, guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting Hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a rating and a review.

As always, I appreciate you guys supporting us, but if you could take a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it. The volume. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick.

And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. Nice. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to us. We get to ask other people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions.

Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it. But, you know, tired and sick. Tired and sick. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

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