The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - LIVE: PACERS-THUNDER FINALS GAME 6 REACTION: Haliburton & Siakam force Game 7 w/ BIG win over SGA & J-Dub

Episode Date: June 20, 2025

Jason reacts live after the Indiana Pacers force Game 7 with a big Game 6 win in the NBA Finals over the Oklahoma City Thunder. He discusses Pascal Siakam’s continued dominance, Tyrese Haliburton playing through a calf injury, TJ McConnell with another big game, and more. He also breaks down Shai Gilgeous-Alexander’s up and down game, Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren not having enough in an OKC loss. Finally, he gives his thoughts on the report that the Buss family is selling the majority stake in the Los Angeles Lakers for $10 million and how that could impact the team building around LeBron James and Luka Doncic.  Follow the show on Playback for future “Aftershow” content: https://www.playback.tv/hoopstonight #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hope all of you guys are having a great week. Well, the best NBA finals since the 2002 series between the Warriors and the Celtics continues to give as the Pacers tonight beat the shit out of the Oklahoma City Thunder. Their most impressive performance on several levels is they tie the series at three. We have Game 7 on Sunday. I'm going to be getting into tonight's game from a bunch of different angles. Talk about some specific things to look for in Game 7 on Sunday, some things that need to go right for Indiana.

they're going to have a chance to win that game. The reality of the test, this final test that Oklahoma City has presented to every opponent to this point that no one's been able to solve, which we'll get into at the tail end of the show today. The Los Angeles Lakers got sold since game five in game six of the NBA finals. I'm yet to talk at all about that. So we're going to have a little bit of a breakdown. Just kind of for those of you guys who haven't been paying too close of attention, just break down to some of the details that are going on in that transaction, some of the ways it's going to change things for. the Lakers moving forward. So a little bit of Lakers talk at the tail end of the show. And then when we're done there, we're going to take some questions from the chat.

So subscribe to the channel, drop your questions in the chat. Jackson's going to come on the show. We'll take 10, 15 minutes worth of questions. And then when we wrap up here on YouTube tonight, we're headed over to playback. That's playback.com.com. TV slash hoops tonight. We're going to be taking callers, just hanging out. It's like kind of an informal basketball hour. It's a ton of fun. We've been doing it throughout this entire postseason. If you haven't seen it yet, I highly recommend you guys go check it out. You guys know the drill before we get started. Subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos.

Follow me on Twitter and underscore Jason LT so you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about a podcast fee wherever you get your podcast under Hoops tonight. It's also super helpful if you leave a rating and a review on that front. Jackson's doing great work on our social media feeds, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. And then last but not least, keep dropping those mail back questions in the chat for the tail end of the show. All right, let's talk some basketball. So the flow of playoff series has always been. super fascinating to me. I was doing a radio hit in South Carolina on Wednesday with a buddy of mine

named Richmond Weber and we were discussing the realities of the difference between single elimination and a playoff series. There is this kind of pathway that takes place, right? There's this learning phase at the beginning of the series. You're feeling each other out, right? You're finding out which guys do the best job guarding which guys, which actions work, which actions don't work. Can we capitalize on this mismatch? Can we prevent them from capitalizing on that mismatch? It's all of this feeling out, right? And then usually by about game four, both teams have figured out their best coverages that work and their best actions that they can run to try to score when things slow down. And from that point forward in the series, everything switches to execution. There's no magic adjustment you can make.

There's no sort of like dynamic change in your approach that can shift the outcome. It just comes down to your guys doing their best ability to execute the specific game plan that you've landed on by that, you know, game three, game four part of the series. And one of the biggest problems for Indiana in this series has been their inability to establish anything that is consistently effective in the half court. Like when things really bogged down for them on offense, they don't really have a reliable action. I'd argue their most reliable action at this point in the series that like slow down half court basketball has literally just been teaching. J. McConnell driving at smaller Oklahoma City guards. He's the one guy in a Pacer's jersey who's been

able to consistently gouge the OKC defense in the half court, collapse them, creates spot-up opportunities and layups for himself. And then Seacom can get to a little right-shoulder fade, but he's not able to get all the way to the rim in the half court very much. But T.J's really the only guy who can gouge them in that way. On the other side of the floor, like Shea and J-dub have been able to pretty consistently get into the teeth of the defense for Indiana. Now, whether or not they process correctly when they get there, make kickouts, things along those lines. That is kind of shifted from game to game.

She and J-Dub both were rough again tonight, but that is the dynamic at play in the series. One thing slow down in the half-court, Oklahoma City's athleticism can really become a problem for Indiana. But Indiana all season long has had an engine, an engine that generates offense outside of the half court. When they defend and when they get stops, and when they force turnovers, they can get out and run.

And when they get out and run, they have a lot more advantage situations, meaning where you have an easy kickout or an easy drop off to a guy who's unguarded and is going to have a defender sprinting out at him. And I would argue, if you wanted to point to one thing about this Pacers team where they're clearly better than OKC, one thing that like if we're putting green check marks underneath each team as in who's got the strength in this matchup, If there's one thing that the Pacers are clearly better at, it's their aggregate offensive skill down the roster. When the Pacers have advantages, they can pass through those advantages and finish plays at a higher level than OKC.

That's their advantage. That's the push and pull of this series. When Indiana can get stops, they can usually get out in transition. When they get out in transition, they have the advantage. they need to succeed. They start to catch a rhythm, a bunch of guys get going, and they can get really tough to beat, right? But if they can struggle to get stops, if they struggle to get out in transition, even as recently as the fourth quarter of game five, we've seen them have serious problems just getting past that initial layer of Oklahoma City's defense. We talked about it in, we talked about it in our show after game five. It kind of had this weird optical dynamic.

in the half court, where for the pacer's, it kind of feels like a bunch of dribble handoffs and interchanges out above the break, but no one's turning the corner. No one's getting downhill. Or if they do, someone finally messes up for Oklahoma City and they get some brim pressure at some point later in the possession. For Oklahoma City, they pretty consistently gouge into the teeth of Indiana's defense in that half court setting, right? So that's the dynamic. If Indiana has to dribble up against OKC's like set half-court defense, it's going to be a problem. I thought Indiana's defense was fantastic from the jump tonight, and that allowed them to avoid that half-court situation for the majority of the night.

And it really starts with Nemhard and Niece Smith. I thought Aaron Neesmith had his best game of the series defensively by far. He struggled consistently in the J-dub matchup. He's been bullied. He's been undisciplined on Shea picking up silly fouls here and there. This was his best game. navigating screens, keeping the ball in front. Namhart has done a great job in the entire series,

but that's where it starts at the point of attack. This is the biggest push and pull in all NBA games. We talked about this with Colin the other day. In the same way that in the NFL, there's line play that kind of dictates every possession. If your offensive line can't get a push, your run game's not going to work. And if your offensive line can't stop the rush, you're not going to have any time for a quarterback to throw or no time for your receivers to get open. It's like this unseen thing that takes place right in front of our eyes

that gets misconstrued and we're always just looking at completion percentages and blaming quarterbacks and doing all that sort of stuff when it's clearly the line that is controlling the dynamic of the game. Similarly in basketball, that is the dynamic that swings everything in the game. If you get bludgeoned at the point of attack, everyone's got a hard help. If everyone's got a hard help, all of a sudden there's easy kickout reads. If there's easy kickout reads, any NBA player is going to find a rhythm. And in this series when Shea has gotten through the first layer of the defense and made those kickouts early and often in the game like game two in game five, the thunder have been able to knock

down shots and they've been in really good shape. But if you can start to flatten out those drives and make it a little bit harder for them to get those hard dribble penetration moments, all of a sudden your off ball guys can do more digging down in recovering, kind of stunting at the ball rather than fully committing to the ball. All of a sudden, those kickouts turn from wide open threes to rushed threes or other opportunities for the gap between Indiana and Oklahoma City's off ball processing and off ball play finishing to manifest itself. And on many occasions in the series, when the paces have really dug in defensively at home, they've been able to play Oklahoma City into some really rough shooting games. But that's

where it starts. When Oklahoma City gets 18 unguarded catch and threes like they did in game five because Shea and J. Dub are just consistently beating the man in front of them and making the kickouts. That's where it becomes really, really difficult to win that tug of war. And I thought Neesmith and Nemhart in particular just did an incredible job tonight. From there, I thought the Pacers had their best game of the series in terms of help and recover situations, constantly stunting and digging at ball handler, showing help and getting out to shooters. That's how it causes turnovers. The very simple fact is that if you hard drive and everyone collapses, it's pretty easy to make those kickout rates.

But if you are on the defender, if the defender's got you on his hip and he's staying attached and the guys that are off ball instead of hard helping or staying in the passing lane, that's where turnover's happen. Or when the ball handler is dribbling against one guy, but he doesn't have him fully beat, so he doesn't see because he's engaged in handfighting and trying to fight through the contact, that second defender comes over and that guy ends up turning the ball over. That happened like three or four times tonight,

where the second defender came from behind when the guy wasn't looking, and they were unable to, like, see it coming and ended up giving up a turnover. 21 turnovers for the Thunder tonight, 19 points off of them. The Pacers got out in transition all throughout the game. 22 fast break points.

When we get to the mailbag of the tail end of the show, I'll pull up on Synergy, the full-blown, like, transition numbers. but it just their defense allowed them to operate with advantages most of the night. And as a result of that, a bunch of guys were able to catch a rhythm. And they looked fantastic. And that's how you end up with six dudes and double figures and lots of people contributing in all these various different ways.

Pascal was great all night. He's been great in the entire series. I think if the series ends today and if the series ends on Sunday and the Pacers win, you probably got to vote Pascal Seaccombe for finals MVP with how consistent he's been with his production. knee Smith, his best game of the series, in my opinion, in terms of two-way play. I thought he was awesome on defense in this game. Andrew Nemhart, early aggression in this game, knocking down that big corner three.

Again, this is, if there's something you're going to look at as an area of optimism looking forward in the series for the Pacers, knee-smith and Nemhard were like completely in the upside down after game five. Neesmith had two or three nasty turnovers down the stretch, had kind of lost control of his shot. Knee Smith has been getting cooked defensively all series and hasn't been able to knock down shots. Those two guys go five for 11 from three tonight and have their best defensive game of the series. That is a huge bit of positive momentum that you're carrying into game seven. Obie Toppin, who has had all sorts of blitzes of scoring in this series, big time catch and shoot threes in tonight's game. T.J. McConnell is consistently, like I mentioned earlier, been the best guy on the page.

at gouging Oklahoma City's defense, which has caused all sorts of positives. They're plus 10 again tonight in his 24 minutes. They, that is the push and pull. And that's what we have to look for for game seven. As we look into game seven, which team's going to control that tug of war? No team has been able to conquer one specific demon with Oklahoma City so far, which is that when the series is hanging in the balance, in the big pivotal games,

nobody can score on them. So for instance, you're going to go down 2-0 at home. That's series over. It's just too much to overcome that. Got to win game two. They strangle the Pacers in that game.

Game four. Pacers have a lead going into the fourth quarter. I think they were up seven. They strangle the life out of the Pacers. They literally can't score down the stretch. Even in game five, like the Pacers, go on a run. Seacum gets an offensive rebound, hits a three off the left wing. It's 95 to 93.

Looks like they're right there. All of a sudden, Oklahoma City tightens the screws and the Pacers turn the ball over four consecutive possessions. And it's not just the Pacers. You go back to Minnesota. Exact same thing happened in game four of that series. You go back to Denver in game four and in game five and in game seven of that series. They have strangled the life out of the team. They've had their moments where they look bad. Minnesota beat the shit out of Oklahoma City in game three. Denver had a several controlling, they had a big controlling win in game three and another one in game six. Memphis, without, or like before John Morant got injured, was beating the shit out of Oklahoma City at home in game three. Like they've shown their cracks. They're a young team. They struggle on the

road. They've had their issues. But ultimately, when everything is actually on the line, when their back is truly against the wall. It's like that meme with the dude sitting back with the controller and then he leans forward when it's go time. Like Oklahoma City tightens the screws and everyone falls apart. That is the challenge. No, no, if Indiana's going to win in game seven, that's the demon they have to conquer. Right out the gates, they have to not turn the ball over. They have to get the ball through Oklahoma City's defense. They have to knock down the shots that are available to them. We talked about Knee Smith and Nemhard getting going tonight.

That's huge. Miles Turner is another big guy I have my eye on. He keeps getting wide open threes in this series and he just can't hit them. And I talked about before the series that he was one of the biggest swing factors, specifically because his ability to be on the other side of switches against guards in the post and because of pick and pop and Chet's willingness to help at the rim and Isaiah's willingness to help at the rim, he's going to get catch and shoot looks and he's got to knock. them down. That's the step on that side of the floor, but Indiana has a pathway to avoid that,

and that's by getting stops. And so Indiana has to in that game, contain the ball, force kickouts to mediocre shooters for contested shots, not for open shots. They need to force long rebounds and turnovers and get out in transition as much as possible in order to avoid that half court setting. Again, it's not a good sign that in game five, when you had a chance that you turn the ball over four consecutive times all against the first two layers of Oklahoma City's defense, like just on ball pressure and high post entry denial and stuff like that. That is something that they cannot afford to do in game seven. If they do that in game seven, they're dead on arrival and they're going to get blown out. But if they can contain the ball, if they can force misses and turnovers, if they can get out in transition,

that is their best chance. And for Oklahoma City, it's, the same thing that they did down the stretch in these key moments. If they can heighten the screws on this Indiana defense, they can force turnovers. They can get out in transition. Because again, as we talked about, if Oklahoma City has a weakness, it's that their offense can be a little shaking.

You can shake the foundation of Oklahoma City's offense. They had just 35 points in the second and third quarters tonight. And so for them, that's their breaking point. But they also have a turnover to transition. element to their game. And in the big spots, they've been able to get to that part of their game and close teams out. Big time in game seven against Denver. Like game seven against Denver, they just decided they weren't going to let Yokic catch the ball. And it just completely decomposed for Denver, right? So that's going to be the tug of war in game seven. The danger for

Oklahoma City and letting a game like this happen where they get their butts kicked as it gives rhythm and confidence to the pacer's. They have a real pathway to get it done. Very, very excited for game seven. Not sure if Colin's going to be with us for game seven, but we will certainly have a live show after the final buzzer there. I'm looking forward to that. Blending Vice's signature dynamic storytelling with the high-octane world of sports, Vice Sports brings an exciting and diverse range of programming that goes beyond the game, from action-packed live events to gripping behind-the-scenes documentaries, to hard-hitting investigative pieces and in-depth profiles of athletes. coaches, teams.

Vice Sports captures the raw energy, drama, and passion that makes sports truly unforgettable. Catch live events and other exclusive sports programs only on Vice TV. Go to viseTV.com to find your cable channel. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, name? Huge news.

We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. First people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys?

I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast.

we could call in and say, hey Jonas, and then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy,

not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, NL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis, and I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast,

I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on Clay. Jen she went. I mean, she went down at three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lina Rabakina is arguably the best player in the world right now, and I actually can win on any surface.

Because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your courtside seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what.

He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin. Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid.

He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers,

got the ball like you go through a training camp with that Isaiah you figure it out real quick get your ass up and down the court and you're going to get the ball so listen to point game on the iHeart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts we're going to take some mailback questions on this game but really quickly i want to spend a few minutes talking about jeanie bus in the bus family selling the lakers for a valuation a record valuation of 10 billion Now, from what I understand, and again, this is important for me to disclose. I am far from an expert on this side of the business. I'm a basketball guy.

I'm trying to learn about this side of the business. Each year I get a little bit better at it, but it's taken some time. But my rough understanding of it was that the bus family owned about 66% of the team. This Mark Walter gentleman runs a massive investment firm that owns many things, including the Los Angeles Dodgers. And they already had something like around 20, 25% of the Lakers. roughly 50% of that 66% that the bus family owns will be shifting over to Mark Walter. So Mark's group would now own a massive controlling interest in the Lakers. The bus family is keeping 15%, which I believe is the mandatory minimum for someone to actually remain governor of the team,

which Jeannie Bus will remain for now. And so now the relatively cash poor bus family cashes in at like $5 billion, if I'm doing my math, right? And the Lakers are now effectively owned by Mark Walter. Now, there's some details that are interesting, right? So, for instance, Jeannie Bus is continuing to serve as the governor of the team. This is interesting because the Lakers' issues don't only come down to money. We're going to talk a lot about money. That's not the only issues.

Those aren't the only issues that the Lakers have. They also have a leadership problem. The Lakers have just pulled off the largest valuation in a sale in the history of professional sports, but they are literally run like a small local family business. talk to anyone who has spent time around the Lakers. There are members of the family and close friends of the family all over the organization and positions of power. There's no clear decision-making hierarchy.

If Jeannie stays on as governor and the team continues to operate in that way, it will continue to hold the team back in some way, shape, or form. That said, we do have a recent example, a relatively recent example, with Mark Cuban after he sold the Mavs, staying on his governor, but then eventually being removed from power, my guess is Jeannie is more of a placeholder than anything else, and I would imagine that she eventually gets replaced. But before we get to anything with money,

this is an aspect that I'm keeping an eye on. Turn over with executives up high in the organization. Luca Donchitch has one year left on his contract before a player option that he'll almost certainly opt out of in pursuit of a new deal. And if you're going to keep Luca around for one more contract or hopefully for two more contracts, you may have to be willing to fire some people.

So like if Rob Polinka isn't up to the task, if he fails this summer in building a team around Luca Donchich, you cannot afford to wait and lose Luca Donchich in the process. Luca is the future. Things were looking extremely bleak for the Lakers after like in that middle, early middle portion of the season when they were struggling. You got an old LeBron, you got an Anthony Davis who's on the decline. They didn't have any sort of massive asset trove or anything to fall back on.

Luca is the guy that came in through great fortune and has turned around the prospects for this franchise moving forward. You have to be willing to clean house quickly if incompetence steps in. But by far, the biggest aspect to this move and how it will affect the Lakers at least in the short term for the next couple of years, things that we'll notice almost immediately is the change in financial resources available for the team. And I'm not treading any new ground here. This has been the major talking point in the NBA

for over 24 hours now. But the Lakers were famously cheap. The most obvious example was the decision to let Alex Crusoe walk for an average annual salary of a little over $9 million to the Chicago Bulls. The Lakers had already offered him $6 million. and by the way, this has been laid out by Alex in the past. The Lakers were willing to pay him $6 million a year.

Alex came back and was like, hey, the Bulls are going to give me nine. Will you guys match that? And the Lakers literally said no, which is damning on both fronts because it's damning on the Rob Polinkup front because it shows a scary lack of understanding of what wins basketball games in the NBA. And then it's damning on the bus family front because we're talking about a gap of about $9 million per year in salary

between in salary and tax between that $6 million number annually and the $9 million number when you add in luxury tax. That was enough to scare them out of retaining a player that literally started an NBA finals game for them in 2020. But the Lakers' cheapness went far further than just the Caruso deal. They openly disrespected a championship coach in Tailu when he just asked to be paid like a championship coach and the bus family offered him entry-level coach money. It was insulting and he walked away. They spend far below the top teams in the league on stuff like scouting staff, analytic staff,

other support staff that is like a legitimate competitive advantage in this league. I saw a story yesterday about them literally forcing an assistant coach to stay in a different hotel than a player he was working out because they didn't want to spend a little bit more on a hotel room. So this news can be interpreted in any way other than a massive positive. Because all indications from Mark Walters group and the way they manage the Dodgers should lead us to believe that the Lakers will finally be a big spending team. That means they won't ever miss out on a hire because the bus family's ego or unwillingness to pay market value steps into the equation.

They should be a top five luxury tax spending team, which they were not under Jeannie Bus. They should undergo a massive investment over the next few off seasons and upgrading their support staff at every level. And they should finally be run like the biggest sports franchise in the world. If you're going to be valued like that, if that's the investment you're in charge of, it needs to be invested in properly and now I expect them to be. It's not going to happen overnight. Could be a rocky transition, especially with Robin Jeannie, still carrying some power. there's a lot of urgency surrounding the situation with Luca.

The Lakers desperately need to get a starting center this summer or a starting caliber center. They desperately need to anchor LeBron and Luca with a ton of athleticism. You're going to build a team around Luca, like I hope he comes into camp in better shape, but he's notoriously a poorly conditioned athlete. Austin Reeves, who's a below average NBA athlete, LeBron James is going to be 41 by the time you reach the playoffs. You've got to anchor them with just a shit ton of athleticism.

There's a lot of work that needs to be done. over the course of this off season and next season before the trade deadline. But I am expecting big changes in the overall level of competence within the Lakers in the coming years. I was texting with Logan Swam. He's a buddy of mine who is the head of content here at the volume sports. Laker fan, him and I always are talking to each other throughout the Laker season. And we were talking today about how, or yesterday, about how it's kind of a little bittersweet

in the sense that like I kind of felt like the LeBron James Anthony. Davis era was just marred by underachieving efforts from people in the upper levels of the Lakers organization. And there will always be a part of me that kind of is like kind of annoyed that now finally after LeBron spent, like God, how many seasons has it been now like seven or eight seasons with the Lakers with how much time he's been with the Lakers that it took this long for, uh, for the team to sell to somebody with some real financial power. But it is what it is. And it's going to be exciting at least for the Luka era. And, you know, If there was any chance, if there's any chance to squeeze a title out of these guys,

it was going to happen with some more competent leadership. And this should be the first step in that direction. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas.

We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a... We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey, John?

Jonas guys. I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. We were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this.

We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast where people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for me. Remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen.

We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement home.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis, and I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay.

Jen Chinch won. I mean, she went down at three to, two. Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lena Rubakina is arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck.

Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. What's up, fam, Ms. Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what.

He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys. like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall.

And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He run up the court licking his fingers while he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick.

Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, let's bring Jackson on. We're going to take some questions from the chat. Let's do it. First question. Hey, Jason, we've seen enough of T.J. McConnell to know it's not a fluke anymore.

But why is it still so hard for the Thunder to adjust when he comes in the game? How are they not ready for this? Well, it's the same, it's not about being ready. It's the same thing that, it's the same thing that Indiana is dealing with on the other end of the floor with Shea and with J. Dub. The reality is is that T.J. McConnell can beat the man in front of him one-on-one. That is the singular thing that can break an NBA defense, an elite NBA defense. And on the other end of the floor, like the Pacers have been a very good defense for the last, like, you know, four or five months. And they've been doing it in large part by containing the ball.

And they can't contain the ball against these guys. Like, Shea and J-dub can consistently get into the tee of the defense. There's no scheme. We talked about this in the show. There's no like magical schematic adjustment. It's about sliding your damn feet and keeping your chest in front of the ball. And TJ has a superpower. Like I think TJ is one of the most underrated athletes in the league.

He is a very powerful guard with a ton of straight line speed and the ability to change direction with some basic moves and counter moves that make him very, very difficult to handle. And like his individual greatness is breaking the Oklahoma City defense and he's going to need to do it again on Sunday. Yeah, I feel like we're reaching the point where he is straight up been over the course of the series, the second most impactful offensive player. for the Pacers. I mean, Siakum is obviously, I think, at this point, the finals MVP,

if the Pacers were to win. But, and it's, and that's sort of part of the Pacers magic. And it's much more of an aggregate, you know, collection of talent, both ends with the floor. You know, Nemhart and Eastman, they're doing a lot of work defensively. But it does feel like McConnell has been their second best offensive player of the series.

Yeah, you can't give him finals MVP if Indiana wins because his minutes have been too low and like Siakum has just been on the floor more doing more. But like, yeah, I would argue if, like, let's say that the game was tied. and there's seven seconds left and they're coming out of a timeout, I would be strongly encouraged to put TJ in the game

and run a one four low. Or like a four out one in and have him attack off the wing. Like he is a problem for Oklahoma City because he's too big and fast and strong for Oklahoma City's guards, which is crazy, but that's just, like he is consistently getting passes, man.

It's crazy. It's so crazy, especially when we've talked all season about how many unbelievable defenders. They're putting out, they put Alas Caruso on him today. Alice Caruso, who were like, he is the world-beating defensive skeleton key right now. After the Yokish performance, they're like, guard T.J. McCawton.

Crazy. Anyway, speaking of the Denver series, when they had a game seven against the Thunder, Denver starters got off to a good start, but as soon as their bench came in, it was basically over. While the Pacer's bench is exponentially better, thoughts on that sort of dynamic heading into game seven in the final. So it's complicated because if you remember, Oklahoma City's bench came in the game, too. and one of those guys happened to be Alex Crusoe, and that guy decided he was going to front the post against Nicola Yokic, and Nicole Yokic was out there during the start of the,

the Thunder onslaught that occurred there towards the end of the first quarter. Now, yes, there was a Yokic list group in the start of the second quarter that just completely decomposed. But it's, to me, it's, it's, the bench for Indiana, to me, doesn't make as much of a difference in terms of, like, traditional bench starter dynamics because Carlisle's just going to go with who's playing well. What I mean by that is like there have been multiple stretches in this series where it's like a key like, oh, it's the late second quarter and this is usually a starting group, but we've got

T.J. McConnell and Ben Shepard on the floor, you know, stuff like that. So like to me, Carlisle's going to pick the dudes that he thinks are playing the best in that moment to be out on the floor. To me, it's when Oklahoma City starts to leverage, like when they start with Hartenstein and Chet, they're a little bit slower. They're not as good with their ball pressure. When they bring in Kaysan Wallace, when they bring in Alex Caruso, when they really start swarming and pressuring like crazy, it's just about Oklahoma City not soiling themselves the way they did. They had eight turnovers in the fourth quarter of game five. And that's what you've got to be prepared for is Oklahoma City is going to bring just the most halacious defensive punch

that you can possibly imagine in game seven and they have to not get rattled. And to me, an easy way to counter that is they've got to bring their halacious defensive punch. And they've got to try to rattle Oklahoma City's offense enough to get out in transition. It'll be really interesting to see if they start Caruso or not. Like they start him in the second half today. They've done that times in the playoff series and the playoffs. It'll be interesting if they start him to start the game or not. I would. I would. It's not fucking round time anymore. Like you, you, you were officially in single elimination territory and the trophy. You could lose the trophy. You got to start your best five. Hey, Caruso's clearly their best, their best fifth guy in the series, I think.

Yeah. Next question. If OKC loses, would you consider it a big choke job? Or would you, I guess a better way to phrase it is, would you think of it more as a big choke job from OKC or as a sort of superhuman valiant effort from the Pacers front? It's obviously a combination of those. Yeah, it's, you know, on its face, very simply, if a minus 700 favorite before a series loses, it can't be anything other than a giant choke job, especially when you look back to what happened at the end of game one, when you had a substantial lead and you end up blowing that game. I think it's a little bit more complicated for me because everyone on the roster is so young. So for instance, like, let's use the most iconic choke job in history of the NBA,

the 2011 heat. Like, they had vets on the roster. Yeah, it was a clunky roster and they hadn't really figured out how to like space the floor and they were playing two bigs and LeBron was playing the three and it wasn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. but what happened in that series is LeBron decomposed and Dirk hit a level that was crazy and it ended up leading to one of the biggest ups. Shea has had his downs in this series, but he's also had some massive ups. And I think Shea's been particularly good in the pivotal moments.

You lose game two, you lose the series. He was awesome. You lose the final minutes of game four. You lose the series. He was awesome. You lose game five. You lose the series. He was awesome.

So to Shea's credit, he hasn't had like, that type of thing. To me, what's happening in this series on the Oklahoma City Front is more testament to just the stuff I've been preaching about all season. Every time I've talked about the thunder all season, I've said the same damn things every damn time, which is they have this obvious upside. The metrics are there. Everything looks great. All of your conventional wisdom would lead you to believe this is the NBA champion, but there are a bunch of kids relative to NBA players. Relative to other NBA championship teams and NBA history, NBA history tells us, us this team loses. They have overcome that to this point. But to me, their inconsistencies and their

inability to kind of like play to their potential, so to speak, because like they should have beat Indiana in five or six games. They should have beat Denver in five games. And they didn't. They beat Denver in seven and they're in danger of potentially losing the Indiana and seven. And to me, that's come down to their inexperience. And what all of the downsides, the things that have happened, it's been consistent. Like, what is Oklahoma City looked like when they're bad? Shea's chucking shots or the guy, the role players are not able to knock down the open shots that are available. They get super, super sweaty palmed on offense and they can't score. And that ends up being the difference. And that's happened to them periodically throughout the season at various

points. And none of it matters if they hoist the trophy. Go in on Sunday. No one's going to care. But like the threat was always there. This Oklahoma City team was beatable and they were beatable because of their youth. And I do think that that has shown at various points in this postseason. To that point, we have another question. The Thunder officially are going to be four and five on the road in this playoff run now. They're going to have a losing playoff record during their playoff run. This has happened before in NBA history. It wouldn't be the first time a champion has a losing playoff record, but it doesn't happen that often. Would, and that's, you know, certainly speaks to their youth. Would that, if they, on the flip side of this sort of conversation,

we can talk about if the Patriots win, if the Thunder went in game seven, would that losing playoff record be a blemish as we think about them as one of their, we know, we talked a lot during the regular season. Is this one of the great teams in NBA history? Would that be a blemish to you for their playoff run? I wouldn't call it a blemish. To me, it's, it's, especially for a team that's one of the great teams. It is always a little clunky in that first playoff run, your first, like, really deep playoff run. So for instance, like even for Boston in 2022, for example, which I would qualify as their first big playoff run, right? theoretically not, because they had other conference finals runs.

But let's just, let's focus in on, on that one in particular. Like, you have the shakiness against Milwaukee. You have the shakiness against Golden State and you end up eventually losing against Golden State. Like, typically in those first few runs, a lot of your youth shows, your inconsistencies show. I've been saying all year, this is the year to beat Oklahoma City. because all all that's going to happen is Chet's going to get better and J. Dub's going to get better.

And I think even Shea has learned a lot of valuable lessons in this series. And there's been these obvious differences in approach from Shea in his good games and in his bad games throughout this entire playoff run. And like any young basketball player, he's just taking in data and he's learning and he's going to learn how to like repeat the stuff that works and avoid the stuff that doesn't. And so to me, like in the same way that we look back on the Warriors, even though they were shaking in 2015. You know, they fall down 2-1 to Memphis. They, I think they were down, they were down 2-1 to Memphis.

They were down 2-1 to Cleveland. I think that was the only two series they trailed in. But like, it didn't look like the most dominant playoff run. For a team that won, what, 67 regular season games the way they did, right? So, like, I mean, they won one fewer game than Oklahoma City did, right? And what that look, what do we look back at as that team as? We look at that as the young warriors. That was the one they stole.

goal, right? Like, that was the one that like, I think a lot of people think, like, if the calves were healthy, like maybe that ends up being a different series. That one maybe. But later on, as they got older, as they got more experience, it's like all of a sudden they were the team that was beating the 68 or 65 win rockets and beating the more, the more electric regular season teams, because all of a sudden they were the savvy vets who had been in all these big moments and they're just more comfortable in those spots. And so to me, I think we'll look back, like if Oklahoma City wins on Sunday, which I believe they will. If Oklahoma City wins on Sunday, it's just going to be their first title. And yeah, if they have a dominant one after, like if they go back next year and

they go 16 and 3, no one's going to care that they had a tough playoff run in in 2025. As is always the case, you can legitimize your success with repeated titles. Celtics fans will always cling to the 2024 title as one of the, as like an all-time great team. But if you're going to convince the masses of anything, it's multiple titles. And that is ultimately the unassailable thing that OKC needs to accomplish. Last question before we go over to playback, you sort of just touched on it. But Draft Kings has the Thunder as an eight and a half point favorite in game set. How would you, how would you lean it? I, yeah, I would bet I would take Oklahoma City and the spread. I think Oklahoma City is going to win big. I think Oklahoma City will be selling.

the championship the entire fourth quarter. For the record, I got, I hope that doesn't happen. And this extends beyond, like, hoping for an interesting thing for the job. I've talked about this on the show before, but, like, just speaking authentically as a basketball fan, I like this Pacer's team more. I think they play a more likable brand of basketball. I think they're more fun to watch, and I'm actively rooting for them, just as a basketball fan.

And so I don't want that to happen on Sunday. I want Indiana to win. But I believe in this Oklahoma City defense. I believe that they can reach a level that is transcendent compared to even other great NBA defenses in the history of the league. So I think Oklahoma City, I think Oklahoma City controls Sunday throughout and it's relatively boring, which is not what I'm hoping for,

but again, that's what I think will happen? What's your guess? If you had to guess, you're more optimistic, so why don't you pitch the case? Let's hear it. I mean, I think, I do feel like the spread is kind of an interesting number at eight and a half because it does feel like, The Thunder have a very good chance to win by 15, 12 to 15. And it feels like if the Pacers are going to win, I don't think they're winning by eight.

You know what I mean? Like, I don't think that that number is going to come into play all that much. I feel like it's either going to be a Thunder cruise or a Pacer's like three to four point win. But I don't know. I mean, I think today's game is a bad time to have a true stinker. You know, like it definitely feels like something a veteran team would do more than a young team, maybe like punting games. But you're not punting any games in the NBA finals, right?

Like this is, it's the NBA finals time. You have a chance to close that on the road. There's no, and the Pacers building the kind of confidence, the Nemhart and Kneesmith offensive performances tonight are definitely really, you know, it's a positive sign for the Pacers. I don't, I think that if I was going to have to pick and I had to make you pick, I would pick the Thunder and I would pick the Thunder to win by 11 probably. But I do feel like the Pacers winning is very within the realm of possibility, despite all

the Thunder factors. It's absolutely on the table. Couldn't agree more. It's just, it to me is very clearly the less likely outcome. And it, the weird thing is it's a, it's a fucking eternity until Sunday again. Like, this schedule has been so bizarre. I was joking with my wife earlier. I was like, this is the longest season we've worked because we had the, we had the Warriors series in 2020 that went six games. But then we've had back to back five game finals. Like, we're working deep into the month of June or we're going on the, what is it, the 22nd, right? So, like, it's, and it's like, it's just another, all, like, every, every sequence has felt the same to me where, like, on that second full day off after the finals, I'm like, I cannot

believe there's not a game tonight. Like, we're waiting again. We're doing this tomorrow night. And so, like, it's an eternity to wait. And, like, if there's one other thing to cling to if your Pacers fan, game sevens are notoriously nerve-wracking. So there's a certain element to where, like, you can hope that Oklahoma City succumbed. to that a little bit. The only thing that always worries me in a situation like that is there's

one thing that is dependably consistent every single night, no matter what when a team is playing hard and that's defense. And that's the calling card for this Oklahoma City team. And that's what makes them the safer bet. That's why they're the safer bet. But that doesn't mean that Indiana can't win. All right, guys, that's all we have for tonight. As always, we sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. Remember, we're heading over to Playback. So Playback.tv slash hoops tonight. We'll be taking callers and just hanging out and talking hoops for about an hour. We'll see you guys over there.

What's up, guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting Hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys, I appreciate you guys. I appreciate you. If you could take a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it. The Volume. Hey, guys, it's us and the Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe.

I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts.

We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it. But, you know, tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. on Humor Me with Robert Smygel and Friends,

me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Turn someday into right now with Buddy by Jake No, stop workout music and expert tips 24-7. Hey, head over to iHeart.com. Search Body by Jake Radio and stream it for free right now.

Awesome health and wellness tips 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Remember, stick to the fight. When your heart is hit, it's when things seem worse that you must not quit. Don't quit. Body by Jake Radio, where hope meets momentum. Search Body by Jake Radio and stream it for free. Have a great day. Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is.

getting a racist statue removed. And here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is, getting a new one put up in its place. I'm Akela Hughes, and Rebel Spirit Season 2 is about both of those things. As I was watching these statues come down, I was thinking about what it meant that I grew up in a majority black city in which there were more homages to enslavers than there were to enslave people. Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human