The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - LIVE: THUNDER-PACERS FINALS GAME 7 REACTION w Colin Cowherd: SGA fights for EPIC win after Haliburton hurt

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

Colin Cowherd joins Jason to react live after an epic Game 7 of the NBA Finals between the Oklahoma City Thunder and Indiana Pacers. They discuss Shai Gilgeous-Alexander’s great game to earn Finals MVP, Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren’s impact, and if OKC is set up for a dynasty. They also discuss Tyrese Haliburton’s injury and Pascal Siakam’s inspiring effort to keep Indy in the game. After that, they discuss the blockbuster trade between the Phoenix Suns and Houston Rockets sending Kevin Durant to join Alperen Sengun and Amen Thompson and Jalen Green & Dillon Brooks to Phoenix to join Devin Booker and Bradley Beal.  Follow the show on Playback for future “Aftershow” content: https://www.playback.tv/hoopstonight   #Volume #herdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Well, today I woke up this morning thinking we're going to crown a new NBA champion today. It's been a long time since we've had a game seven of the NBA finals. And it got off to a little bit of a bummer start as Tyrese Halliburton goes down with what we can only assume is an Achilles injury. The eight Achilles tear in the NBA this season, a very bizarre trend. Colin and I are going to spend some time talking about that towards the tail into the show tonight. But the Oklahoma City Thunder are the 2025 NBA champions. Colin, what's your big takeaway from the NBA finals this year? Well, our NFL champion, Philadelphia is about roster construction and the best GM, and you have a clear number one.

And that's Oklahoma City, whereas the modern games about scoring and wings and high flying, they're about their general manager, their depth, their youth, their legs, and a kind of non-vertical leading score who goes against type for the NBA stars we fall in love with. And, you know, I've been saying this on FS1. I've been saying this for months is the NBA now because of the aprons and the CBA is going to be like the NFL. We're going to talk more about general managers. You can't stack players. And I think, you know, they were the best team all season.

The home court ended up mattering against Indy and Denver, you know, really formidable opponents that had some older star players. But, you know, I think in the end, you know, When you look back at this season, you'll go, well, they were a dominant regular season team. They weren't a great road team in the playoffs, but they were dominant at home, and that's where they were crowned. And, you know, that's why the regular season does matter. It may not look like the playoffs, but Oklahoma City, I don't think is winning this thing on the road. And so they earned it. And, you know, the injury is gutting, but that stuff happens.

I mean, KD's gone down in big games. I mean, it happens. So, and I think over the course of this season, O'KC was the best team. Yeah, I'm not interested in any talk about asterisks for the most part in NBA history. Almost every championship has some injury you can point to that impacted things in one way or another. And ultimately, I think Oklahoma City did this to healthy teams along the way, too. They played some really good teams, Colin. They went through the best player in the world and Nicole Yokic and played him into the first three consecutive

bad game stretch. I've literally ever seen him play. They took that Minnesota team that was kicking everybody's butt and they handled them like easily. And then the Pacers who have been the kind of the enigma of this of this playoff run, every time they needed to beat them, they were able to contain them and keep them under control. I, you know, we talked after game five. Like, there is this test that you have to pass to beat the Oklahoma City Thunder. And it's that when the shit hits the fan and there's a few minutes left in a big, game where the series is hanging in the balance, they are going to tighten the screws defensively in every single series, the opposing team fell apart. Whether it was Denver at multiple spots in

game four in the fourth quarter and game five in the fourth quarter, the entirety of game seven, what we saw in big spots against Minnesota, specifically down the stretch of game four. In this series, in game four, down the stretch, they just strangle the life out of Indiana. In game five, it's 95, 93 off of a Siacum off. offensive rebound three. It's a two-point game. You're like, oh, man, this could go either way. Literally turns the Pacers over four consecutive times just with the strength of their defense. And then again tonight, you know, admirable effort from the Pacers there in that first half to keep things competitive. T.J. McConnell, I'll always remember the way he played in this series. What a

remarkable performance from him. But they came out the gates in that third quarter and they tightened the screws and they turned the Pacers over and they got out in transition. They finished this game with 23 forced turnovers and 32 points off of turnovers. That's the star of this team. I said this the other day to you is the one thing you have to have against O KC is two elite ball handlers. So when Halliburton goes down, they play with guts and toughness and length. But in the end, they just turnovers.

There's no Halliburton. If you don't have elite ball handlers against this team, we've fallen in love with the 3&D in the wings. Well, O'CC's got a lot of them, but there is a way to combat that, is to have guys that can create space, that you can't trap and double them, and T.J. McCallis, excellent.

But again, when Halliburton got hurt the first time, again, they show great courage and gusto, but there's just limitations on that. You can only play down your most important player so long. So, you know, there was that, I think it was like a, at one point, there was a, I wrote it down here. There was a huge 19 to 2 Oklahoma.

City run. A lot of that kick-started by defense. And so they just feast on teams. And you know what? You know what they're a little bit like? They're like a fighter who senses blood. Like, okay, see, they're not dominant enough offensively to just blow you out against great teams, against Denver and Indy. They can score. They have runs. But when they sense blood, somebody's in foul trouble, somebody's hurt. You're starting, you know, they have a matchup advantage, man, they play downhill. They play downhill fast. And you look up and you're like, well, this was a four-point game.

Now it's a 13-point game. And, you know, that's what great teams do. Their run looks different than a Jordan explosion or a Shaq Kobe explosion. But nonetheless, it's a burst. And everybody looks different. You know, I mean, so I, listen, all my notes here, I look through, I kept waiting for the inevitable run, and it happened. And it was off turnovers.

And I just kind of felt like I saw an SRR stat. I think that's what it's called, an SRR stat about Indiana. And they said, if Indiana wins, they'll be the worst champion since the 1978 Washington Bullets, which, by the way, I can name the entire roster because it was when I fell in love of basketball. But the truth was, is if Indiana won, it was probably our weekend. as champion, though I love them. And OKC wins, at least we can hang this. Boy, that's a top five defensive team all time.

We can hang something that sounds like a champion. NBA's leading score, deepest team in years, all time top five defense. That sounds like a champion, does it not? Absolutely. Their defense is one of the great defenses that has ever played in the NBA. Like that was true in the metrics. And all we can do to tie that pace together is what the metrics showed in the regular season. And then what do you do in the playoffs against the competition you face?

This was a Pacer's offense that was lighting everybody up, Colin. And they got strangled every single time it mattered. Nicoli Okic is literally the best offensive player I've ever watched. And they had him under control in every pivotal moment of that series. That is the type of defense that we watched. you know, this Thunder offense was frustrating sometimes. We're going to talk about Shea in a few minutes. Like Shea was great every time he needed to be great,

but there were some downsides here. They had a game in this series. We were at zero assists. They had games where they'd move the ball poorly, where they were out of rhythm, out of flow. They're young players. Young players against elite playoff defense, that's going to take some time to figure out.

And there's no doubt that if the Thunder are going to have sustained success in this league, they're going to have to figure out some things offensively to be better year after year after year. But their defense right now is elite hold the trophy defense. And that's what came through for them again. I was really interested to see if Chet Hongren could deliver finally. And I thought in the second half, it was like, okay, Chet Hongren played with more confidence. That was my only question.

I thought, man, if this is a three-point game and there's four minutes left, OKC, home favorite could get really tight. And they left no doubt. But I thought Holmgren and J. Dub both in the second half played well in that run. And so, and that was one of my concerns is I've never seen a young team like this young win a championship. And you know, I was thinking about this as you were talking about SGA, SGA. Usually, let's say, for instance, Shaq wasn't hitting his free throws. He still had all-time power. If Kobe and MJ weren't hitting their jumper, they could go vertical.

Magic Johnson struggling from the field. He just had a size advantage. He'd back you down. SGA is not a vertical player. So if he's off and he's off center, he doesn't have power. He doesn't have speed. He doesn't have, he's not a, he's not, you know, he's strong for his size. He's not a vertical player.

He is a mid-range maven. Like he is all-time stuff. And so, you know, I've said before is he's an all-time score, but he doesn't feel like he's in the Curry class where you're like, Wow. I've never seen a human. Like Caitlin Clark's got some of that. You're like, I've never seen that. Right. SGA, I've seen it. Alex English, Kiki Van Dewey. He's just better at it. And so I do think, you know, when you play better teams and you can get it off his game, he has a very centralized game. He's tremendous at it. But I think we'd both admit he needs a friendly whistle. And because he's so gifted, he almost always gets it. It's not like the hardened whistle, which is. like feels illegal. That's not it.

It's like that feels unstoppable as different than it falls illegal. But, you know, he is, I love him. I love his maturity. He's just a smart, hardworking kid. He's impossible not to root for. I know everybody doesn't like, you know, all the flopping. But I have a hard time not rooting for guys who are more mature than their age with completely refined games where I can see the way.

work ethic. I can see the years you've toiled in a gym. That to me as a grinder. Like I love that kind of basketball. And I think that's what he embodies. Yeah, I think it's fascinating because at his age, you know, being 26, he's kind of in this weird role that's reminiscent of some of the roles that you've seen guys like Tom Brady and LeBron Bion where they're the elder statesman in the locker room. He's the elder statesman in the locker at 26 years old. It's such a dynamic. But to, like, for if he was an immature player at 26, this whole thing could fall apart because of the youth in that locker room. And he just brings that, that, that veteran presence. Hey, it's us to Jonas brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news?

Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcast throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it.

Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad,

Hey Jonas and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel,

help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis. And I know firsthand because I competed there myself.

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Our player of the week this week is the 2025 NBA Finals MVP. It is now official, Shea Gildjellez-Alexander. Colin, I was thinking about a cool way to frame this segment. And all I could think about is like you mentioned with the Washington Bullets roster. You know, everything for me as I'm talking about all-time greats is kind of played through this lens of when I started really following the league closely, which for me was in like around 2005, 2006. You've been watching a lot of NBA basketball for a really long time.

You've seen a lot of stars come through the league as young players and leave the league as vets. has been like your first impression of Shea Gilders, Alexander, as a playoff performer in the NBA? That if I go back to Kareem and the Sky Hook, which was unstoppable, unblockable, and he mastered a shot. I'd never seen a player master a shot when I first watched Kareem. I can remember as a kid in my backyard doing it, like nobody else shot the hook. Michael Jordan's midrange game. If you look at a lot of the great players, beyond just scores, they are the master of their domain. Like, I do what I do, and they're all different looking.

There was no other, there was no other Kareem. You know, David Thompson was a little Michael, but Michael's mid-range game, he had three or four stock moves. You know, Tim Duncan, the great fundamental, is that a lot of the all-time great players, and I've said this about Mahomes, can be boring. They have mastered what they do, frustratingly so. And I look at a player who knows exactly what he is, but more importantly, he knows what he's not.

And he leans into all of his skills. And I think when you watch them play, they can be uneven offensively. the greatest thing I can say about SGA, he's their clear dominant number one score. So when you play them, I don't have to pick Tony Parker, Duncan, Manu. It's like, stop him and people can't. I mean, that to me is a fastball. Like that, you know, you can beat them and J. Dub can have 32.

Or Chet could have 24 or Lou Dort hits five threes. But the numbers are, if he gets to the free throw line, they win. everybody in the league knows it and they can't stop it. Like that is precision. That is mastering a craft. And I just, I just have great respect for that. Yeah,

the Duncan comp is super fascinating to me because Shea doesn't have some super demonstrative personality on the court. He lacks a vertical element to his game. There's nothing that like, like people who play a lot of basketball, like I've stolen little bits of footwork and moves from him. that I think are useful moves for young players to work on. He's brought his own little kind of unique flare to the two-guard position,

just like Harden did, just like Wade did, just like Kobe did, just like MJ did. He's got his own, like, kind of unique take on it. But similar to Duncan, even if there wasn't that, you know, overwhelming optical appeal, it's just surgically effective. And no matter what happened in this playoff run, the most reliable play type out there was give the ball to Shea at the nail. And he's probably going to either draw.

a foul or get to a mid-range jump shot that he can hit about 55% of the time. And you know, you know, Colin, it has not been a perfect NBA finals for him. He had some rough games. But here's the thing. Just about every star struggles in their first NBA finals. LeBron struggled in his first two NBA finals. It is an impossible stage to be, to be, I shouldn't say it's impossible. It's a very difficult stage to perform well in.

And to his credit, every single moment in this series where things could have gone south. So like game two, you're down one-oh, you lose that game. series is probably over. Game four, you're down to one. You lose that game. The series is probably over. Game 5, 2, 2, you lose that game. Series is probably over. And game seven, series tied. If you lose that game, obviously the series is over. In every one of those games, I thought he was awesome. This is actually a hilarious stat, Colin. In the four games where I thought he played poorly, which was game one, game three, game four, and game six. In those games he combined for just nine assists. Okay, just nine in those four games. In the other three

games in game two, in game five, and in game seven, he had 30, 30 assists. He averaged 10 in those three games. And if you watch those games from the start, just surgical and precise with the way he was navigating the late double teams, the help at the rim, making the kickouts to three-point shooters, the role man, whether it's Hartenstein or Chet, I. I thought Shay, to his credit, every time the team needed him to be great in the series, he was great. And I think that is the stereotypical finals MVP performance. I thought he thoroughly deserved it.

And most players don't even do this well in their first time around. Yeah. And, you know, I think, I don't think they're a great team. I think they could be with age. Like next year they'll play. Watch next year. O.K.C. won't be as dominant in the regular season. They won't be.

There's no need to be. You're going to rest players. So next year, they'll win by an average of 6.8, not 12.9, right? They'll try to build up. You know, they're going to try to build up their younger players, make their draft picks. They want to see guys that can play. So it'll be interesting. But next year, they'll play like a champion.

And so what you'll see, they'll be a little less uneven to the aforementioned stature where you saw him bounce a little bit. You'll probably get a little bit less than that. But it's also something that Indiana was better defensively than people gave them credit for. They could put a lot of a lot of length on the floor. And I think we are going through. We've seen it now with multiple teams, and I was fooled with Denver. I say it right now.

The last seven champions have been very good teams. Will this be a great team? I'm fascinated to watch the Houston Rockets now, right? Like Shangoon, Amon Thompson, Kevin Durant. I want to give Indiana credit because the Halliburton injury did matter, but in the end, I still liked Oklahoma City. I think when I look at Oklahoma City's rough edges, it's mostly Holmgren just needs another year to grow.

Like one of their roughest edges is, God, Hongren did nothing tonight. Jay Williams, J. Williams, he can still. William's. He can still be uneven. He can be masterful. But I think most of the things about them are a lot of them are age-specific, is young players in big games, especially on the road, aren't as good. And I just, so I look at them and I think, oh, they have a chance to be really good next year, play as a more confident team. And I think, by the way, their coaching staff will grow. Everybody will just get better. But most of my criticisms, oh, K, C are, you know, you you just didn't know game to game what you got with Chet Holmgren on the offensive end.

When he played well in the second half, it's like, wow, that's a really hard team to beat. Yeah, this is a super interesting concept. I want to get a little deeper into this. I do need, we're going to wrap up Microsoft real quick. That's it for this week's course correction. Remember, Microsoft's AI solutions empower you to take bold steps and make informed decisions, sparking new ideas to help drive your business forward. With Microsoft as your trusted partner, you can navigate your journey with confidence, finding innovative solutions and reaching new possibilities. Visit Microsoft.com slash challengers to learn more. So Colin, to your point, I saw this stat before the game. Oklahoma City's net rating. And remember, net rating is just how much you

outscore your opponent just waited for pace per 100 possessions. Oklahoma City's net rating at home coming into tonight was 21. They outscored teams by 21 points per 100 possessions on the road negative six. And so to your point, I actually agree with you. I thought Oklahoma City kind of underachieved in this playoff run. They should have put Denver away sooner. They should have put Indiana away sooner. They were not, to me, a great offensive team for the majority of this playoff run in downright ugly at various points.

But as we look back through NBA history, this is what I look at the Warriors as a corollary here. It's not just stars that tend to struggle when they get to the finals the first time. teams do. The Celtics in 2022, they really struggled when they showed up in 2024. They looked like a bunch of grownups. They handled it way better. Golden State. Steph played so poorly in 2015. I think he still deserved finals MVP, but he played so poorly in 2015, he didn't get a single vote for finals MVP. They were looking at his teammate as somebody to give the vote to. They, you know, at various points in that playoff run looked a little shaky. They trailed 2.1 to Memphis. They trailed 2.1 to

Cleveland. It is very typical for a team that dominates in the regular season, but has their first truly pressure-filled serious playoff run to be a little bumpy. And so the point is, is like, yeah, this year they were a mediocre playoff offense that had an elite playoff defense, which was enough to get them over the top. But this team has by far the most room for internal improvement year over year. I'd argue in the entire NBA. Like J-dub, you talked about the oscillations. The oscillations are classic young player stuff. I can't tell you how many times anybody who spends any time coaching young basketball players, you'll see them do something that works. You'll be like, nice job. And then they'll go on the next possession and they'll do something

completely different. You're like, just do the same thing. Do the same thing that you just did. And it works. And then when they make mistakes, they can repeat them. They struggle to cut out mistakes and they struggle to repeat their successes. Young players over time. You don't think Shea remembers how he played in those three bad, in those four bad games. He knows. He knows. He learned lessons in that, in that process. And Shay will be better.

Shea will just be more consistent, I believe. J. Dub can get substantially better. Shet was a nightmare offensively in this postseason run. Nightmare. And this is a guy who spends summers working out with Kevin Durant who has like all, he has all MBA offensive potential. And so maybe they're not that team yet, but they absolutely. can get there. And all you have to do in this era where nobody's winning multiple championships is win multiple championships. And pretty quickly, you will, like, establish yourself as one of the

all-time great teams. I'm with you. They were, this was a rocky road, but they got it done. If you were going to beat the thunder, this was the year. This was the year where they're young, they're thin. Jet has never been in these big moments before. Like, this was the year to beat them and nobody could get it done. And it's only going to go up from here. Yeah, but I think Houston now has to be considered very interesting. I contend Dallas when everybody's healthy. I don't know exactly where Kyrie is going to be. I love their size and length.

I also think, you know, the NBA, especially out West, has some really good GMs. There's a lot of levers to pull here. And even though, and I've told you, I think draft picks are going to matter more. Like everybody's banging on the suns today. What if that number 10 pick ends up being a really, really good player? And they have all these second round picks and they can figure out a way to move one of the other players and get another first round pick. And I think Oklahoma City is going to be very good for a very long time. But I still think, and we've seen it this year, these long playoff runs, you see it with pitching standards.

You see it with pitching staffs and you see it with teams. You keep going to seven games against Western teams and in the finals. I don't like it. I think you're going to have more injuries. I don't remember a two-year stretch where we had more key injuries to star players. So, you know, it's one of those things. They've got a lot of depth, but they do have one dependable score. So keeping SGA healthy and trying to develop second, third, and fourth.

scores is a real thing because they're inconsistent there. But it is, you know, as I look at this playoff series, one of my takeaways is, and I've been on this for years, you do not need seven games in the first round. And you say, well, it could be a sweep. You do not need four game sweeps. You could do it in five games or three games. So I think OKC is not good enough to be brittle, injury riddled. I think healthy, you know, we always say that in the NFL.

It's attrition. Some of these playoffs, Cleveland fell apart. The year before, New York fell apart. And that, I think that's a lot of it. I think the West is going to be razor thin. You know, we all know, San Antonio's going to take a jump. So I think a lot of it is if we're going to keep doing seven-game series, well, a lot of it is who's healthy because a lot of guys went to the floor this year.

Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, name? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it.

We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. And we were thinking I'm originally calling it.

one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast,

people could call in and say, Hey Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, and OKC's super young, and they just held up. They kind of physically wore everybody down over the course of this playoff round because they just have this deep rotation of young players. I agree with you for the record. I want to be clear. Like, I do not think this Oklahoma City team is the KD Staff Warriors. Like, that team felt borderline unbeatable when they were healthy.

Like, I don't think this Oklahoma City team is unbeatable. I just think we haven't seen their ceiling yet. I think there's a level they can get to, especially in the offensive end of the floor that we haven't seen yet. And I'm curious to see where that ends up. Does that end up being a team that's just like all the other champions recently? They can't repeat? Or does it end up being a team that ends up making a mark on this air?

But the injuries thing is fascinating. So we have, shout out to Josh. It gave us the stat before the show. The Tyrese Halliburton Achilles Terror, if that confirms to be what it is, which is what it looked like. I mean, ABC made us watch it 30 times. I have no idea what that was all about. But that would be the eighth Achilles' terror in the NBA this year.

The previous season high was five. What do you make of this like uptick in these weird severe injuries in the NBA? Well, okay. the pace is faster, the players are better. You know, it's a more physical postseason. It's just more taxing on the bodies. And these athletes now come into the season in shape. You're just asking a lot.

It means, you know, like we can criticize Jamal Murray of Denver sort of playing himself into shape and Luca. But I think, I think there are very few LeBron's out there where the body just holds up. And I think guys, I think the level of play, the level of pace, the level of physicality. These guys are more like tightly tuned violins and it just doesn't take much. And so I don't, I just do, listen, college basketball doesn't have near the quality of talent of the NBA. But why are their ratings often beating NBA playoff games because of the urgency?

And we all know baseball, you have to have a longer series because such a big component of baseball, baseball is starting pitching. So, you know, you're setting up your pitching. That's part of the chess match of baseball. But I don't think in basketball I need a seven-game series. I've, Michael Jordan's big years, it was a five-gamer until you get to later rounds. And I just think, I think Adam Silver, and I'll give Rob Manfred and Roger Goodell credit. I think our commissioners see this. They're very open-minded. Manfred's made multiple big swings, you know, which goes against baseball's history. Basketball's been, you know, a much more progressive, willing to experiment league. Sometimes, you know, the new ball, David Stern didn't even give the players a heads up.

But Adam Silver has made, you know, the in-season tournament. I think you have to really examine. And when I had him on, we talked about this, is that embrace college basketball, you know how, you know what Indie, Oklahoma City is to me? We're all the G-League guys. It's a lot of guys who played a lot of years of college. embrace college basketball as an almost educational basketball tool. Not the school part, just be what Tom is over two or three years. Like it matters. And also, you have to really examine the value of these players. If you're signing a $76 billion contract for 11 years, you want your stars playing as long as they can.

Halliburton's injury made me sick to my stomach. The game didn't feel the same. After that injury, I was so fired up all day. I got home early. I watched two hours of the pregame show. I was sick to my stomach. I'm like, wow. And again, I just think you can, money's not the problem. We got 76 billion coming. Like, money's not the issue. The owners are all billionaires. Let's protect the players. There's no reason for seven games series in the first two rounds.

And it keeps, the thing is calling too, it keeps happening on the same play, the same like, what they call it the negative step where you like step backwards to try to launch yourself forwards. Essentially, the body is fatiguing to the point that when they're trying to explode forward at these points, the body's failing. And it's happening at an increasingly high rate. And it, I think it has a lot to do with just the way the game has changed in the sense that the point at which players are engaging defenders, the point at which players are being asked to contend with physicalities extended substantially further away from the basket. You're facing ball pressure and being guarded 30, 35 feet from the basket some of these times.

I bet if you tracked an individual player's movement and just how often he runs around the floor, just the straight line distance that he runs, it's probably double what it was in the 90s in a single game. Just because of the pace, the amount of ball and player movement that occurs on every single possession, it's just a lot. And so to your point, like, I understand the TV aspect and it's like, okay, we got, we get money from these games. We can't cut games because it costs us money. If anything, we're trying to add games. Here's the in-season tournament. Here's, the play in tournament. You know, they added that seventh game to the first round after it used to be five.

Like, they are adding inventory that the players can't handle. And if you really dig into it and you actually start to look at the way it affects the product, I'm so glad you mentioned that. Colin, this was the most excited I've been for games so long. And what a buzzkill to watch the best player on the other team come out, hit three straight three, start talking a bunch of shit to the crowd. Next thing you know, he's in a heap on the ground. it's a huge bummer.

And like, these guys can't be asked to play back to backs. These guys can't be asked to play an additional two. It is June 22nd, Colin. You know how this playoff run has been going on forever? Like, it is a long stretch. They have to find a way to make this actually achievable for these bodies. They are not holding up. In my theory is that if you tweak it in a way to where guys can hold up,

it'll improve the ratings just by virtue of everyone being present. and bringing the urgency due to the lower inventory. Oh, it's just like baseball ratings went up and you shorten the game. Create urgency. Everybody's, I mean, I've done this ad nauseum. Everybody's on their phones. People are, I'm watching the game tonight, and I'm literally in the first quarter, you know, I'm sitting there watching the game, and I'm writing some notes,

but I'm also reading an article on the finals as I'm watching the finals. We're all distracted. So, you know, I just, I think the reality is you just, anytime you can make a game feel like an event, everybody wins. The players win. I win, you win, the networks win. So it'll be interesting now because the NBA is going to be on so many networks and it's going to dilute some of the coverage. But I, you're going to have to make it special. And by the way, this is what baseball did.

Fox went to baseball and said, you guys have to create the home run derby is your highest. rated non-world series moment. Create more things like that. So they did the cornfield game. They put the Mets and the Phillies overseas. And I watched all of them. So I do think there's a certain apathy in the regular season. I mean, even the league officiates different in the postseason.

They understand the urgency. So I think they'll get it right. I think Adam will eventually get it right. He's not a stubborn guy. I don't think any of our commissioners are. And I think going from seven games to five games, you may not think it's a big deal, but over the course,

it could be four less, four fewer playoff games. You know, I feel like Halliburton's body just gave out tonight. It just, it was exhausted. He just pushed it and pushed it and pushed it and pushed it.

I think that's exactly what happened. Again, it's becoming undeniable. Like there was a point where it was like, oh, injuries are on the rise, but hey, it's only been like two or three years.

It might be just anecdotal or too small of a sample size. We're on an extended stretch here where like dudes are breaking down every year in the playoffs. remember last year it was like oh the calves are going out donovan mitchell's foot and now we're you know and then oh like here come the pacer's and then tyrese halliburton gets it's like it's it's this like it's basically turning into a war of attrition more than it's turning into a battle of basketball and

that's what they have to figure out because otherwise what you're going to see is the deepest youngest team win every year i mean and that's more or less what we saw in the finals you know you know on so many different levels but anyway call we did get a new piece of news this morning um Kevin Durant is now a Houston rocket. And in return, the Phoenix Suns are getting Jalen Green, a young player with tons of potential, but maddening downsides at this point. Dylan Brooks, who I actually think is a very good role player in the NBA, the 10th pick in this upcoming draft, and five second round picks. What was like your first impression when you heard the news today? Well, my first impression, the sons were three and 17 when Katie didn't play this year.

They stunk. It wasn't him. He still get a bucket. If he's a leader in Houston, it doesn't work. If you need a bucket in Houston, it works. And I think today you have to look at the Rockets. My take is he's going to give you about 65 games in the regular season. If we get two healthy years, then everybody's going to watch Houston,

vie for the NBA championship and feel like they dominated the trade. It is, however, a very good draft. So Phoenix gets the number two, 10 pick. Well, many people are theorizing there are 12 players in this draft, the top 12 players, who are all-star potential. So if they stay at 10 or move up to six or eight, they're getting a potentially really good player, probably with more than one year in college. And again, I don't think anybody will ever unlock Jalen Green. like I think he's the classic, doesn't have a defined game, never probably will. But we can't deny that he can drop 30 in any given moment, that he's wildly talented.

I don't like his game, but I'm not going to deny that he's, you know, long, twitchy, fast, very good transition player. He's just, and there are a lot of these guys in the NBA. You know, they come in and they're talented and maybe either they don't work on their game or they don't get the right coaching, or they just, they probably have so much talent from sixth grade on that they never really, there's no catalyst for them to like really burrow down on a specialized, you know, not everybody is just driven as MJ, right? Like, I'm reading the Caitlin Clark book.

I mean, that girl's, she is MJ. She's obsessed. And it's just like, not everybody's like that. Some people are just talented. And so, but between a man Thompson and Shangoon, his beautiful touch, Kevin Durant, and a series of four or five very good young players. And I think Adoka is a very good coach. That's a real team.

But I think it's easy to look at Phoenix and just go, well, they got Greens productive. Dylan Brooks is a very good, small forward defender can give you 17 a night. You got the number 10 pick. You got a bunch of second round picks, which you can turn those into things. Phoenix wanted a little bit of a reboot. they got it. But people on the internet are like, oh, Houston dominated. If Katie got hurt in Game 36, it wouldn't feel like Houston dominated, right?

They're not bringing him there to be a foundational piece. They're bringing him in to get a bucket. Like he will not be, the leader of Shen Gune will still be the, I think the centerpiece of the team. A man, Thompson will be your best athlete and your defensive stopper. He's going to be a bucket guy. So that's why I think it works. He's still one of the top 23, 26 best players in the league, I would argue.

I mean, I was on the plane when I was flying in today. I started right now in numbers and I got to like 21. I'm like, he's in that space. And again, Phoenix was terrible when he didn't play. So that's my long-winded answer on. I think Houston will look like they won the trade. I think that what happened in Phoenix is a sign that like, yeah, KD, staff, LeBron, these guys, they're not floor raisers anymore at their age. They're not going to turn a bad

roster into a 50-win team the way that 27-year-old Nicola Yokic could. Like, that goes without saying, I don't, I do think, though, that KD has been dramatically underrated because he's been on such a poor roster. I put this together for you, Colin. This is three stats to show that Kevin Durant is still one of the very best players in the NBA. He was the best jump shooter in the world this year. Among 58 players in the NBA to take at least 500 jump shots. KD was the only player in the league to make over half of them. And in second place was Shea, who made 45%. And if you waited it for threes, his 1.22 points per shot was still number one in the

NBA. Number two, he was the only player in the NBA last year to make at least 200 pull-up jump shots, meaning off the dribble while making more than half of them. And three, he was far and away the best isolation player in the world last year. Out of the 10 players ran at least 250 isos, his 1.1.1. one six points per possession, including passes, ranked number one in the league, a full six points per 100 possessions ahead of Shea,

who is in second place. I think he is, when it comes to refined offensive skill, he is still one of the very best players in the league. I would put him in that six to 15 range, depending on, and we haven't seen him play enough high leverage basketball lately to see where he really lands in there,

but I think he's still in that range. And if you ask me what the Rockets issue was, this is a deep team with a load of big, physical athletes. If you asked me what their one weakness was, it's refined offensive skill. And that's what KD comes into address. We were just talking about this with Desmond Bain and the Orlando Magic the other day. When you take a bunch of big athletes that kind of struggle with spacing and you bring in a guy who like just run him off a screen and he's automatically going to pull two defenders out 30 feet from the basket, it unlocks a world of possibilities on the short

role. A men Thompson will be an amazing short role player. You know that thing that Draymond Green did for Steph, where Steph would come off of Dremont and take two players, and then Dremont would go right down the middle of the floor and make the play that broke the defense down. That is a thing that Amend Thompson has been unable to do in Houston because they just don't generate many of those opportunities because none of their shooters are good enough. KD will unlock that part of Amend Thompson's game. It is not a perfect roster. I was writing down all the names on the roster today. They're a little light on ball handling, but that sort of thing they can get. You know, was so funny, Colin. I remember when the sun signed Tyos Jones last summer. I was like, why?

You already have this redundancy of all these dudes you can dribble and you're just not athletic enough and you're not good enough on defense. Like, you need athletes and dudes that can like, like beat up people in these physical environments. You know who could really use Tyest Jones? Houston. Like I think they should call, I think Kevin Durant should call up Tyas tomorrow and be like, hey, dude, come with me. Yeah, I think, I think Phoenix, I wish Phoenix would have gotten actually a size. I think Phoenix needs size, and I think Houston needs a ball handler. And our takeaway, when we watch Golden State beat Houston, we were like, God, they're so bad in the half-court offense.

If you stop Shen Goon, it's over, right? Like, it's just, and so you and I talked about this. He was a perfect fit there. I thought he worked in New York because of Jalen Brunson's, you know, has the ball a lot in his hands. I thought he would work with that offense, whereas Kat can kind of, I always felt like Kat and Brunson were playing, you know, your turn, my turn, your turn, my turn. KD's kind of like, I'll sit in the, I did it with Russ Westbrook, I'll sit in the corner, get it to me eventually. So I think he fits really, really well.

And I think they have the coach. I think, again, it's so hard to judge Houston because so much of their roster is young. I feel like everybody's in the fourth inning. I mean, Amin Thompson could take a big leap. I mean, Shengoon's the only one where I look at him and I think, oh, again, I use this word a lot, but that's a defined and refined offensive game. got European touch. Like he has a game.

A lot of their players, I feel like they're just in early innings. I don't know what they are. So, Amand Thompson's obviously defensively defined. He's so strong and athletic and aggressive. But KD gives them refinement. This is a second offensive player. I know exactly what I'm getting. And that goes back to a little Oklahoma City.

One of the reasons Indiana gave OKC problems, Syacom has an offensive half-court game. Halliburton does. T.J. McConnell does. Like, that's three guys. Even Obie Topin, when he hits threes, you're like, he's athletic and hit threes. They had guys that they, Rick Carlislew, okay, this is what this player does. With Houston, Houston's like a younger OKC.

I'm just not sure what everybody is. Like, I just need more guys than I go into a game and go, yeah, I'm going to get 24th tonight from KD and I can draw up two or three plays for him. So Houston, to me, is early innings. they could end up being, they could end up looking at, if you told me next year, a team explodes in the West and ends up winning by 7.8 points, I would guess Houston, because they have so many players that are just going to springboard to another level here in the next. No, I totally agree. I think they have massive upside. I think they could very easily be the second best team in the West and the biggest threat to the Thunder next year. I think that's absolutely on the table. They match up well with OKC2 because they have all the big physical size. The ball handling will be the weakness, as we saw with Indiana. Even Oklahoma City struggled because. of their lack of depth and ball handling against Indiana's ball pressure. But the youth, the, the thing that you're talking about in terms of the wide range of outcomes is super interesting, because as I was breaking down their depth chart today, I'm looking at it and I'm like,

okay, Fred Van Bleet, legit point guard, you know, Shangoon Center, KD's, you're four. Amend Thompson, I think defensively functions as either a two or a three. So that, that could be either. But then it's like Jabari Smith Jr. is kind of a four. He plays basically the same position is Katie. I don't think he moves his feet well enough to be a three. Ham Whitmore could be one of those guys. Reed Shepard could be one of those guys, but like, who knows? And, and here's the other thing, too, Colin, Houston still gave up one first round draft pick in this deal. They still have a boatload of first round draft picks at their disposal. So they're high, they're like a high likelihood for like, we bring this team into camp. We watch them for 20 games and we go, oh, here are

the two things we're missing. Let's go get what we need to get. Like they are. They're extremely well-equipped heading into this next season. That's where Houston won the trade. They didn't have to give up another first-round pick. That's where they won the trade. It's not just KD. Because my guess is, because of their depth, they won't play KD more than like 60 to 65 games.

They want him for the postseason. There's no reason to play him 75, 80 games. Because they also know if you're in the West, Jason, you know you're going to be in long series. So there's no, you know, you're going to be in 60s. game series in the West. It's not like the East where you kind of feel like if Halliburton comes back next year, they're just certain, you're going to win a lot of series really quickly. You're going to have long series in the West. No reason to have it. You know, I want Katie going

into the playoffs, you know, off about a two games and nine days stretch, healthy and ready to go. And I think you have to think about that as a GM with an older player in the West. If you have a stuff for a KD, all the series or long series. That's the thing. Like if they get a Tice Jones, if they get, you know, one other guy of that ill, then they will be able to rest, Katie. Not just for the regular season, but even in the postseason, like we saw Houston give themselves a really good chance

to win games, even without high level offensive skill because they just go, here's Tari Isson and an amend Thompson, and we're picking up full court, and you're turning the ball over now, and it's a mess. Like, they are able, like, they are able to prevent the redundancy that Phoenix had,

where you have a bunch of guys who do the same thing. on Houston, what KD does is so specialized for them that they kind of have an identity separate from him. So they will be able to win games without him. They will be able to carry the load so that he can come in and lift them over the top. I think it's a fantastic on-paper basketball fit. It'll be ugly sometimes. Katie's going to have some nights where maybe the statistical performance isn't there because it's ugly. They can't space the floor as well for him. But they will in turn do the same thing to the other team. So to buy Kevin that margin for air. Before we get out of here tonight, Colin, I did want to run this by you because I've seen a lot of victory lapping criticism. You know, let's just say the Phoenix Suns have been the butt of the joke today because they took Mikhail Bridges and Cam Johnson and Chris Paul.

And they turned them into basically Bradley Beal and Dylan Brooks and Jalen Green and one first. round pick. I get that it looks bad. Here is where this is where my brain went this morning. They made it to the finals a year where because of COVID, everyone was hurt. And we had a Trey Young Hawks team in the conference finals, a Paul George Clippers team with an injured Kauai in the conference finals and that Sun's team. And by the way, they ran into Janus and Janus beat them four straight times for the title. So they weren't good enough.

then the next year they kind of have a great regular season and lucca like embarrasses them like embarrasses them for the world to see in the second round they weren't good enough so they made an aggressive trade they went and got heaven durant every one of us would have done the same thing at that point in time it was heaven durant and we had just seen him be so amazing for brooklyn in those couple of previous playoff runs even the chris paul thing that i would argue they should have used Chris Paul's salary as a vehicle with which to bring in more size in athleticism. But you're like Chris Paul for Bradley Beale. Like I mean, come on, right?

You could talk yourself into it. Again, it wasn't perfect. There were mistakes. There are certain things I would have done differently. But now we're on the other side of this and it's like self-awareness. We're not good enough. We just missed the playoffs in the Western Conference. Like, Katie misses a few games and we completely fall apart.

Like, I understand it looks bad when you zoom out. But to me, what happened to Phoenix is just what happens when you get aggressive and it doesn't work. And the truth of the matter is, is there's risk. Well, yeah, they had the, well, yeah, the Bradley Beale deal. And I can't criticize it because for years, I mean, I must have been on the air for five years saying, I really like Bradley Beal. He's playing with John Wall. You're never going to flourish with John Wall. You got to get into a more mature group of veteran players.

and then it's just like over the course of a year or two, he got really old, really fast, and really banged up, and he just, he just withered down. So I was a Bradley Beale fan for years. I didn't understand why he was so loyal to Washington, which was poorly run and poorly owned. So I can't, I can't criticism. And I always tend to be a big fan of being aggressive.

I like what Orlando just did to get bamed. So, yeah, I can't bang on them. Again, if they hit, on the number 10 pick. They've got enough second round picks. They got enough pieces to, I think you just have to take more big swings. I think with Bradley Beale, I wonder if you just don't buy out the contract. Like, I mean, that's how bad of a deal it was.

So, you know, I think if they were in the East, you'd have a better vibe or more optimism. I just think, I look at San Antonio and I still think Denver's going to be really good. I think they just, you know, I just look at the West, the better GMs, better rosters, deeper teams. God, we've almost forgotten about what they're building in San Antonio. Holy crap, do they have a lot of talent? They're in the second inning. So I just think Phoenix, relative to the conference, you know, they just feel like I have not, and they probably are.

But I mean, I know Matt Ishbia and Justin Ishby. I know Justin, actually. I met him when I moved to Chicago. He's part of the White Sox, I think ownership group now. And Matt got really aggressive. And I think one of the things I've learned over the course of my life, Jason, it's, I've made a lot of mistakes, but it's hard to master two things. Like Michael Jordan tried baseball, right? Randy Moss tried basketball. It's really hard. And I think sometimes when aggressive owners come in and they think, hey, you know, because the son's like, don't have the biggest scouting department and the owner comes in and thinks, I want stars. what you're really saying is I'm moving into a completely different world and I'm smarter than Sam Presti.

Right. Like even Sam Presti, the James Hardin deal early, he didn't get enough. Like it's, I mean, I look at GMs and football and basketball, who I like. And they make big mistakes. Shabazz Napier, the draft pick for Pat Riley in the heat. Like great people make mistakes. Nobody on the internet, you know, the trolls don't want to ever. admit it, but I think they came in and the owner was a little hot and a little aggressive.

And this is a hard sport to master. Even the best people. Just, you know, you're drafting 19 and 20-year-olds. And I think, you know, I'm not going to bang on the suns because when they made the moves, I was like, I kind of like it. And then a year later, I'm like, man, was I wrong? So I can't be, I can't stand on any pious mountain today because I like their moves. I thought Bradley Beale's been a disaster. There's nothing else you can say.

It's just been a disaster. That happens sometimes. Like, I mean, like the most recent example I can think of is the Rafters. Like, I remember when the Rafters traded for Kawhi, we were, everyone was like, why would you do that? He's going to go to Los Angeles. He's telling everybody he's going to Los Angeles. His family's out there. He wants to be out there. That's where he's going. This is a rental. And it was, by the way. If you, if you, if you, like, remove the championship from the equation, it's like, he went there and then he left and he went to L.A. and the Raptors tank. Like the Raptors, fell apart after that. Like, that's what happened. But they won the title. But even if you zoom in on the series, it's like 3-3 in Philly and Kauai hits like a leaning jump shot while falling out

of bounds that hits every part of the rim and then falls in. Like that was the gap. That was the gap between the gamble being a success and being a failure. And so ultimately, I feel like we're just playing the results when we say that. And like, you know, I look at it. It's like you, you draft, you've traded for KD. There was one team who gave the two thousand, Nuggets trouble. One team, the Phoenix Suns. The Phoenix Suns were the team that pushed them to two, two in the series, and it looked like everything was hanging in the balance. And so, like, for whatever it's worth, it wasn't enough. But yeah, my take was less like, uh-huh, look at the sons. They butchered everything. And like, they acknowledged to themselves that they weren't good

enough to win the title. They made an aggressive move for one of the 12 greatest players of all time when he was still playing really well, and it didn't work out, you know, and that's just how it goes sometimes. But Colin, it was great to see you today. Thanks so much for coming on the show. This has been a really fun season. Shout out to the NBA for giving us our first good NBA final in a very long time. And our best domestic draft coming up in forever. This is a great domestic draft. So that's, that's, we've talked about this. I think with NIL, I think you're going to have more players staying in college. The drafts are going to get more domestic. We're also poaching the best European players with the NIL money.

I think draft picks over the next 10 years are going to fortify teams much more quickly than they have for the previous 20 or it's 18-year-olds who are just not ready to play. So this will be a really fun draft to watch. There's some really special players. Yeah, I'm super excited. The extended NBA finals have put us right up against it. Guys, I have Sam Vassini coming on the show tomorrow.

He does an incredible draft guide. We'll be doing a full NBA draft preview. The actual draft is on Wednesday. It's literally right around the corner. So everything's right here. Colin is great to see. Thanks so much for giving us your time. For all of you guys who are on the YouTube stream,

we're headed over to Playback to take some callers. So that's Playback.com. TV slash Hoops Tonight. I'll see you guys there. Everyone else. Thanks so much for supporting us this season. It's been an incredibly successful season. I can't say enough about the way you guys have supported us in the show

over the course of this year. And we will see you guys tomorrow morning. What's up, guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting Hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us. So take a second and leave a rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys supporting us. But if you could take a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it.

The Volume. Hey, guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called,

Hey, Jonas. Nice. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it.

it, but, you know, tired and sick, tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam?

It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was hungry. You just understood. That's how personal it got.

Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis keep coming to you. I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Most people out here think that taking care of one another is important.

And most people would step up for a neighbor going through a tough time. Most people around here help out friends and family when they need it. But the funny thing is, most of us won't look for help when we need it. Talk to someone if you're struggling with mental health. Because most people out here really. care. Find more information at loveyourmindtay.org. That's loveyourmindtay.org. Brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human.