The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - Mavericks-Thunder Reaction: Luka Doncic & Mavs MAJOR BOUNCE BACK vs. OKC in Game 5

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

Jason Timpf reacts to Luka Doncic, Kyrie Irving, and the Dallas Mavericks' 104-92 Game 5 win over Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Chet Holmgren, and the Oklahoma City Thunder in the second round of the NBA Playoffs. Jason discusses the game's biggest highlights and shares his main takeaways ahead of Game 6 where Doncic and Dallas will look to advance to the Western Conference Finals. Later, Jason reacts to Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, and the Boston Celtics' 113-98 Game 5 win to eliminate the Cleveland Cavalier and advance to the Eastern Conference Finals. What's next for Cleveland with rumors swirling of Donovan Mitchell's departure? And what should the Celtics expect from a potential matchup with the Pacers or Knicks looming? The show ends with Jason answering listener questions during an NBA Mailbag segment including expectations for Game 6 of Timberwolves-Nuggets as Nikola Jokic and Denver look to close out Anthony Edwards and Minnesota. #volume #Herd Timeline (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements): 05:00 Mavs-Thunder 24:00 Celtics-Cavs 42:30 MailbagSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games.

This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes.

Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of Tontons and Wampas on the ice planet, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The volume. The NBA playoffs are heating up and so is the action at Draft King Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA. With same game parlays, live betting, odds boosts, and so much more, don't miss out as the NBA postseason winds down. So lots of great odds for the second round.

If you still think the Nuggets are going to come back and beat the Timberwolves, you can get them right now at plus 105. Thunder Mavs starts here shortly. And if you like the Mavs to win that series, you can get them at minus 105. And if you're new to Draft Kings, you've got to check this out. New customers bet five bucks to get 150 in bonus bets instantly. Download the Draft King Sportsbook app now and use code Hoops. That's H-O-O-P-S. That's code Hoops for new Cups.

customers to get 150 and bonus bets when you bet just five bucks only on draft kings the crown is yours gambling problem call one 800 gambler or in west virginia visit www www. www.1-800 gambler. In new y-all 8778 hope n why or text hope and y to 4-6-7369. In connecticut help is available for problem gambling call 888-78-97777 or visit at ccpg.org. Please play responsibly on behalf of Boot Hill Casino and Resort in Kansas. 21 plus, age varies by jurisdiction, void in Ontario, bonus bets expire 168 hours after

issuance. See dkng.com slash B-Ball for eligibility and deposit restrictions, terms, and responsible gaming resources. All right, welcome to hoops tonight here at the volume. Happy Wednesday, everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great week so far. Got a jam-pack show for you

guys today. We're going to hit both of tonight's games, the Boston Celtics close out the injured Cleveland Cavaliers to advance to the conference finals. I thought Jason Tatum was absolutely amazing down the stretch of that game after Cleveland made a little bit of a run to get it close in the early fourth quarter. We're going to break that game down. The Dallas Mavericks go into Oklahoma City and amend their ugly loss in game four at home to take a three-two lead. Luca Donchich plays one of his best games of the postseason. We're going to break that game down. And then at the tail end of the show, we're going to hit about 10 to 15. minutes of mailbag questions. I have Paul, our lead producer here. He's going to be tracking you

guys in the chat. So drop some mailbag questions in the chat. And Paul is going to send them to me and then we're going to hit them at the tail end of the show. You guys know the drill before we get started. Subscribe to our brand new YouTube channels. You don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on Twitter at underscore Jason LT. So you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast feed wherever you get your podcast under hoops tonight. And then keep dropping mailbag questions and the YouTube comments. So we can keep hitting them throughout the rest of the postseason. All right, let's talk some basketball. So Luca Donchich, bounced back, had an amazing game tonight.

You know, I said about Jamal Murray after game two, there is a tendency like, this is kind of like the inner battle that every competitor tries to have, right? When things aren't going your way, there's a natural part of you behind the scenes that will try to look for a reason. Yeah, well, I did this yesterday that messed up my routine or, oh, I'm dealing with this injury that's kind of preventing me from having that little bit of explosiveness or, oh, my teammates aren't doing this or my coaches aren't doing that or the refs aren't letting me do this. It's kind of human nature, right? And, you know, part of that competitiveness is fighting

against that and finding a way to be great anyway. And like, that's the thing. Like with Jamal Murray, there were a lot of reasons why you could have pointed to that game to shit show, right? Like, oh, Minnesota's playing great defense. He's getting hacked and fouled all over the court. Obviously, he just came out of a difficult series with the Lakers. And now he's dealing with this cap injury. There's all these reasons, right? But the problem is, is game three is still two days later, you know, well, for every other series, obviously for that series, he got a little bit of a longer break. But that's the thing with Luca Donchage situation, had a really rough game for, right? More turnovers than made field goals, was on the floor seemingly

all night long, was really, really accentuating his injury in terms of his body language, was constantly complaining to the referees. And it's like, yeah, but guess what? Game five is on Wednesday. So you just got to find a way. And one of the big things I talked about after that game is like cutting down on mistakes, right? Like so much of what makes a basketball player effective is decision making. And so even when you're banged up, if you just really focus in on handling ball pressure soundly, being more diligent about avoiding some of the aggressive defensive things that Oklahoma City can do and just read the floor and do what Luca Donchich is better than most people at.

which is playing half court surgery. If you just do that, your decision making will rise to the surface and will carry you through. Then you'll build confidence and rhythm. And then it won't matter that you're moving at 85% of whatever your normal level of mobility was. I thought it was abundantly clear

from the opening tip of this game that Luca Donjic had a different level of focus. I thought that he was way less worried about the officials, way less worried about whatever janky defense. Lou Dort was playing, way less worried about whatever was going on with him physically or whatever. He just was focused on the game. And I thought he was magnificent.

It reminded me a lot of that bounce back from Jamal Murray in Game 3 against Minnesota in the sense that like you can take a look at all the excuses and run to the bank with them and find out it's not going to help you win the series. Or you can confront all those excuses, focus on controlling what you can control and just find a way to be better. And Luca did that in a big way tonight. He had less than half as many turnovers as he did in the last game. He hit a bunch of big momentum shots,

had doubled the number of made field goals. Finished with 31, 10, and 11. Only three turnovers was plus 13 in his minutes. Just a dominant performance. Big thing that was standing out to me, especially early in the game. And this is something that Luca does better than basically everybody in the league at this point

as a perimeter player. Yokic, I think, is a similar level passer, but it's obviously a different type of offensive initiation than what Luca Donchich does. But Luca is really good. at reading all three levels of the defense. And when I think about the different levels of the defense, the first level is the point of attack. That's the guy who's guarding on the basketball. The second level is whatever the screen defense is, right? So if there's a ball screen from a big man,

it's usually going to involve some form of drop coverage, hedge or blitz, right? Like it's either going to be a blitz or a hedge or it's going to be a high drop or a low drop, a catch hedge, something along those lines, right? All those different coverage ideas, maybe a switch, if you throw it in there, right? If it's a guard to guard screen, it's either going to be a switch or it's going to be a hedge and recover or a blitz, right? Like, that's the second level of the defense is reading who's involved in the action, meaning if it's a two-man action or a three-man action, whatever those two or three defenders reading what they're doing.

The third level of the defense is the back line. And almost always, the third level of the defense is going to have an advantage situation, right? It's almost always going to be like a guy in the dunker spot and a guy in the weakside corner with only one guy guarding him, right? Or the roller will get behind. be like just the roller, the low man, and the shooter in the corner. It's almost always a two on one. And the reason why most defenses are willing to concede that is the simple fact that most passers can't make those reads. The majority of the guys in the league can read that first level of the defense. They can,

the good ones can read the second level of the defense. Only the great ones can read that third level of the defense. And I just thought between making beautiful skip passes to the corner to Derek Jones Jr., who was hot at the beginning of this game, to finding the vertical spacers between Daniel Gafford and Derek lively and Derek Jones Jr. himself, just constantly finding reading that back line defender, that low man and identifying like, oh, he's glued up to the corner shooter. Well, this guy's cutting along the baseline. I can throw the lob. Oh, he's more geared up to stop the guy cutting along the baseline. Well, my skip past Derek Jones Jr. is open there. I thought he just did an excellent job of that half court surgery that we're talking about.

It was a big time bounce back game from Luca Donchich. Really, the, the ebb and flow of this series on the Dallas front has mostly come down to Luca's play. He got badly outplayed by Shea in game one, they lost. He got badly outplayed by Shea in game four. They lost. Every other game of the series, Luca's been able to at least either play that even or win that matchup and it's gone Dallas's direction. That's the responsibility and the expectation that comes from being one of the best players in the league and being the best player on a team that has real championship expectations. Luca passed a big test tonight on the road to two series against an elite. physical pain in the ass perimeter defender in Lou Dort.

So shout out to Luca, big game from him. Derek Jones Jr. He was a big part of their early start. You know, I was talking about this yesterday with my buddy San Vasini. We were texting about it, or two days ago, we were texting about it. I think Derek Jones Jr. is probably the best veteran minimum signing in the league this year. The other guy that you'd be looking at is Kelly Ubre with the Sixers, and he obviously had more scoring pop, but I just don't think he's as good as a perimeter

defender as Derek Jones Jr. and he's a little bit more willing to stay on script while Kelly's a little bit more willing to kind of like freelance and kind of hijack possessions. And so I'm not, I think Kelly has also been a very good veteran minimum signing. But I think Derek Jones Jr. has probably been the best veteran minimum signing in the league this year. And again, that's a shout out to Dallas's front office because to put it simply, when you're operating on the margins the way teams like Dallas are, when you go all in on a trade for a guy like Kyrie Irving, when you go all in again for the Gafford PJ Washington deal, you basically. basically have to nail all of those little fringe types of moves, right? And getting a guy like Derek Jones Jr. at a veteran minimum salary was an absolute home run. And he's now one of your five best players. He's one of the guys you're leaning on in a big way in these environments.

I think he's done an outstanding job guarding Shaggildes Alexander in this series. He's been able to convert spot up possessions, both by knocking down three point shots and slashing into the paint. He's got that vertical spacing piece that we were talking about earlier. Luca just always has an eye on where Derek Jones is, has a really good feel for the timing of Derek Jones's footwork when he jumps. And so Luca always seems to get him the pass in the absolute perfect spot. Those of you guys who have played basketball and are athletic or have been playing with real athletes, you know that lob throwing, it's like you either kind of can do it or you can't. There's that famous clip that was going around in game, I think it was game two or three where Jalen Williams was making fun with his

teammates of Shea for being a bad lob thrower. And I think Isaiah Joe might have made a joke about how he's bad at passing in general. But like that's the thing. Like lob passing is kind of an art. And Luke is just amazing at it. And you can tell he's got the chemistry with all of their vertical spacers. Oklahoma City's youth, I think, has been showing in a big way in this series. And again, there are examples. I think youth is winning in a lot of ways in this postseason, but not youth in the early 20s. It's mainly been youth in the older 20s that have been thriving. It's been the guys that are in their prime, the 26 to 29 years old that have been kicking the shit out of the early to mid 30s veteran stars, right? And, uh, but Oklahoma City is very, very young after

Shea. And I think what you're seeing in a lot of cases is bad decision making in intense environments, which is a typical kind of thing that you can see with young basketball players. They struggle to slow themselves down when the intensity gets to a certain level. The big thing that's been standing out to me in this series is bad rim decisions. And I'm going to start by giving you guys a couple of stats because I think these two stats will drive this point home. Coming into tonight, the Oklahoma City Thunder in this series have been generating just 16 wide open threes per game. Remember, that's the defender at least six feet away. They're shooting well on them.

They're shooting 44% on them. Got some bad luck on those tonight. a couple of huge ones that Kaysan Wallace missed. And again, he hit the big ones in the last game. So that's kind of the nature of making miss basketball. But they're not generating nearly as many. They're only generating 16 per game in this series, not counting tonight.

Obviously, the stats haven't updated. But they were averaging 23 per game in the regular season. That's a time and a half as many. So to put it simply, you're experiencing like a 30% reduction in the wide open threes that you're generating, in large part because you are forced, shots at the rim against rim protection.

Here's the other stat to drive that home. They shot 68% in the regular season in the restricted area. That's a really good number. They're shooting 58% in this postseason at the rim. It's so much just like getting worked up and trying to confront problems with youthful exuberance and athleticism when so much of this type of basketball is about take a deep breath, slow down, and take advantage of the easy shots that are available to you. We're going to talk about Jason Tatum here in a minute, who had, in my opinion, his best game

of the postseason tonight and just did an unbelievable job picking apart the calves down the stretch of that game when they started to get it close. And the beautiful thing about it, we're going to get into the details here in a minute. He did it with easy reads. Like, it wasn't like he was, like, deeply manipulating the defense. He was taking advantage of easy stuff that was in front of him. That is what wins at this level. It's all about the guys that can slow down, read what's happening in front of them,

and make decisions. And a lot of Oklahoma City's youth has been flashing in that regard in this series because they're just so rushed and they're forcing things. Ironically, because we're going to go back to Tatum and the Celtics here, it reminds me of the Celtics Buck series in 2022. Do you guys remember that Bucks team had no Chris Middleton. And so they had no Chris Middleton and no PJ Tucker, or two guys that were really important in the championship run in 2021, right?

And so it put a substantially larger shot creation responsibility on Janus and Tenacupo and Drew Holiday when you put him in that big of a usage role can fall apart in terms of his efficiency, which he did. And so that was a series the Celtics should have won in like five games. But a big reason why that series got dragged out. Part of it was Janus's greatness. But another part of it, but it was bad rim decisions. That was a series where Milwaukee was keeping Brooke Lopez at the rim.

and it was like Tatum and Brown, they were just forcing the issue downhill and like trying to take bad shots over Brooke Lopez at the rim. And then they'd miss, slide out of bounds into Camaro and Milwaukee would run out the other way and Janus would get something going in transition. That series turned at the end of the series. In large part,

one, Tatum had a magnificent shot making game in game six, but they also just did a better job of finally making those good rim decisions. Like, hey, we're doing exactly what Milletam. Milwaukee wants us to do. We are challenging the strength of their defense, which is their rim protection. If you're looking at Dallas's defense, it's similar to what we were talking about with Oklahoma City in terms of the three levels of their defense. The strength of Dallas's defense is the point of attack and at the rim. Like they have rim protection and they have good point of attack defenders. But they've got guys usually on the weak side, it is a guy like Luca. It is a guy like

Kyrie that's in those two-on-ones on the weak side defensively. And so if you could capitalize in some of the weak part of Dallas's defense, you might have more success. But instead, by attacking one-on-one and forcing shots against rim protection, you were playing directly into Dallas's strength defensively. And it just was like a lot of really poor decisions attacking closeouts. They had a good stretch at the end of the third quarter where they were making those kickout passes. They were just missing some good looks. Case on Wallace. got a couple of good looks in that stretch just happened to miss him.

Mark Dagenal, if you guys remember, in his interview to start the fourth quarter was like, I like that process there at the end of the third quarter. We just have to keep trusting it. And then the first couple plays of the fourth quarter, there's a play where Aaron Wiggins drives a close out in the left corner. And in Chet Holmgren is standing completely wide open in the right corner. And instead of making the kickout pass, he tries to force like a lefty up and under reverse layup while screaming and yelling at the

reps and jumping and flailing over three defenders. And he misses it and they're going out the other way. There's another play, Lou Dort, out of the left corner, drives a closeout, gets into the lane. There's an open shooter. Instead, he forces like a shovel pass to Chet at point blank range and throws it too low and it ends up being a turnover. It's like the decision making driving closeouts was a huge problem throughout this entire series and again in the big moments tonight. Honestly, that's the story of the series to me. The main story of the series, is Dallas has just done a much better job of taking advantage of the backline of Oklahoma City's defense in a way that Oklahoma City has not done for Dallas. And so as a result of that, the only real reliable offense that Oklahoma City has had to this point has been Shea's shot making.

And it's been there. And he's been great. Another 12 for 22 tonight for 31 points hit five threes, right? Like Shea is, or excuse me, he's 12 for 22 hit two threes. a really efficient game, but that's all you've got going because there isn't enough in terms of the overall rhythm and flow of the offense. Again, like I said, you're generating about two-thirds as many wide-open threes as you did in the regular season. That's a problem. And that is on your offensive approach. You have to do a better job. Looking forward, it's like what I said after game four. I thought after game four, it was two-two, but I didn't think either team was playing particularly well. Like, I thought Dallas played like shit in that game. And if they make their free throws, this series is over.

Right. So like it was obvious that both teams could play better. And Dallas did tonight. Dallas kind of put it all together tonight. Tonight felt like the game where Dallas had it all going, right? Like Luca and Kyrie both played much, much better. They defended really well again. They've defended really well throughout most of the postseason, aside from a few stretches.

They won the glass big time, 46 to 33. They won the points in the paint battle. They had 27 assists to just 20 for Oklahoma City. They put it all together tonight. and they controlled a basketball game in one, right? OKC is going to need to do the exact same thing in Dallas in order to extend this series. But part of this is the reality of younger basketball players.

Like I talked about so many times over the years, young basketball players really struggle to identify what's working and replicate it and identify what's not working and trim that fat. Veteran players are much better on the fly at picking those things up and making those tweaks to make those tweaks to make. sure that they replicate what's working and stay away from what's not working. But Oklahoma City does have the talent to go into Dallas and win in game six. I mean, hell, they did it in game four without even playing particularly well. So it's on the table. They just have to identify what's working

and repeat it and avoid some of the same pitfalls that they've run into over the course of the series. I do think Dallas is going to close it out in six. But I believe that Oklahoma City has a good chance and we'll see what happens in a few nights. And I think that one is actually, pushed to Saturday. I think there's a little bit of time off, which is another really nice treat for Luca, because I'm pretty sure tomorrow is Nuggets Wolves. And then the following day is Nick's Pacers, which is an extra day off that really benefits, obviously the Knicks with Jalen Brunson dealing with his foot injury. And then I think the Dallas game is on Saturday. So depending on how things go with our game seven, this might be our last two game night of the year. We'll see how it goes.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits,

the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement

to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told,

and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, Follow at Clifford and a TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tauntons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two.

Listen to stuff to blow your mind, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim?

Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jek. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, moving on to Boston. So kind of a weird game, right, close out game. You know, Max Trues comes out with this hair on fire, super aggressive, a little bit of, like, hesitant basketball. Early in the game, a lot of Celtics were kind of hijacking the show, and Tatum just wasn't very involved. Even though Tatum looked locked in, he had this, like, driving contact dunk at the rim early on, where I thought he got fouled and he didn't get to call.

I wouldn't really involved early. You know how that goes with close out games. Just kind of, it's really hard to put a team away, right? So Cab's going to run. They cut it to three in the fourth quarter. It's 88, 85. And I want to kind of go possession by possession through what I thought was a really, really fascinating stretch of Jason Tatum basketball.

And one that I thought was, you know, a really, a kind of like an exhibition of what makes Tatum so good, right? And this is something where I have to do a better job as a, as an analyst because I tend to get really focused on, you know, a specific take that I'm trying to drive home. And then a lot of times I lose side of the bigger picture. And like, I love Anthony Edwards. I think he's something that American basketball is desperately needed. Love his personality, love his game. I, I, and I've kind of used Jason Tatum as a vehicle to try to drive that point home. And, you know, and I haven't done a good job of making sure that I properly encapsulate what

makes Tatum great while also accentuating what makes aunt great. Right. And so the thing is, is like with Jason Tatum, there is a lot of focus on some of his scoring limitations, right? Like takes a lot of tough pull-up jump shots, has a tendency to settle. You know, there's a, there's a lack of aggression with him sometimes. There's some of that stuff, right? And that is true, but there's a bigger picture of Jason Tatum's game. And he is a much better playmaker than the majority of his peers at the forward position, just an outstanding. defensive player and rebounder and a guy that just helps a basketball team do a lot of stuff to win games. And I thought tonight was kind of an interesting example of that, where if you

were watching the game and you weren't paying attention to the specifics of what was happening, what was happening, you might trick yourself into thinking that Tatum was being passive, but all he really was doing was playing smart, easy basketball to take advantage of some coverage mistakes that the Cavs were making. So at 88, 85, there, uh, uh, Jason Tatum is hanging out around the top of the key in like a straight ISO. And on the play, Al Horford's sitting in the right corner. And Evan Mobley is just completely ignoring him. And he's just sitting right in the paint.

Tatum goes, I don't need to beat my man off the dribble. I don't need to call for a ball screen. The defense is automatically in rotation if I simply make an on time, on target pass to Al Horford in the corner. Whips it to Al Horford in the corner. Horford drives the closeout forces Garland to help. Drew Holiday kind of does like a little banana cut into the front of the basket. Horford hits him and Drew Holiday makes a little pop shot in the lane.

An easy drive and drop off that was generated from Tatum just taking a deep breath, slowing down, reading the floor, making an easy decision. Then on the very next possession, he's dribbling up the left wing. And again, a lot of players would slow down, call for a ball screen, try to make it about them. No, he just looks up the floor and he goes, oh shit, Darius Garland's guarding Jalen Brown and he's not really even like up on him at this point. So he just throws a simple kick ahead past Jalen Brown. Jalen Brown rips to the left and drives downhill.

Garland finally wakes up and cuts him off, but not until Jalen Brown gets pretty deep down to the left block. As a result of that, Evan Mowley has to double. And so Jalen Brown makes a beautiful kickout pass. Makes a beautiful kickout pass to the, to Derek White, who hits the three. And it's like, that's an easy basketball play. that Jason Tatum identified just by seeing that there was a transition cross match. Garland's guarding Jalen Brown and Jalen Brown is open on the wing.

If I throw it to him, he's just going to be able to rip through. He rips through, draws the second defender, which was Mowbly, and then he hits Derek White. He knocks down the three. So the next possession, Garland gets a layup and a ball screen that cuts it to 93, 87. They go down to the other end of the floor and they run two-man game. And they run it with Tatum and Derek White, right? the two defenders involved are, I think it was Dean Wade was guarding Tatum at this point. And then Dary Scarlant was guarding Derek White, right?

Tatum has the ball. The coverage that most teams are going to use in that situation is a hedge and recover, right? So Dary Scarlane, Wade, for some reason, chases over the top. A lot of times, like when you know a hedge is going to be there, the hedge is going to cut off the drive. So you don't need to chase over the top. You can actually go under and try to meet them on the other side. Garland is going to cut him off and make him take a retreat dribble typically, right? Instead, Dean Wade chased over the top of the screen.

So when Tatum went around the hedge, by the time he finally got around Garland, Dean Wade had still not recovered to get back in front of Tatum. So this is easy basketball, right? Tatum just drives at the hedge, sees that Dean Wade hasn't recovered. So he turns the corner and goes downhill. When he turns the corner and goes downhill, he just drives hard at the rim and he ends up pulling in Evan Mobley in help. and he just whips a beautiful cross-court pass to the left corner,

completely unguarded Al Horford, knocks down the three. Now it's 96 to 87. Similar kind of thing on the very next possession. Jason Tatum's isolating on the left wing against Marcus Morris, Sr. Jalen Brown is in the opposite corner in the right corner, okay? Max Trues is guarding Jalen Brown, but is completely ignoring him and sitting in the paint.

Once again, Tatum doesn't get baited into thinking. Marcus Morris is too slow to guard me. I'm going to try to beat him one on one. He just goes, why do I need to call for a screen? Why do I need to play ISO ball here? Jalen Brown standing completely unguarded in the right corner. Max Truce is going to have to close out to him. If I drive by Marcus Morris,

I'm probably just going to end up engaging Struis and help and making the same type of kickout pass anyway. Why make it more difficult than he needs to be? He just whips a cross-court pass. Hits Jalen Brown right in the shooting pocket. He rips to the baseline and beats Struis off the dribble, drops it off to Al Horford standing wide open underneath. the basket gets a layup 98 to 87 very next possession exact same type of two man game that

they ran with derrick white the exact same functionality garland hedges dean way chases over the top for some reason tatum comes off the hedge dean wade is not there and as a result he just steps into a wide open pull up three at the top of the key knocks it down it's 101 87 game over takes one shot and dribbles off an action twice total. And yet every single possession made the decision that got Boston a great look. You know, I was kind of thinking about it because, like, I had a mailback question the other night

that I didn't actually get to because we ran out of time. But one of you guys asked, like, oh, if Jason Tatum is not as good as the top tier guys in the league, how does that affect Boston and like their roster building in the future? you know, because I've always talked about how you need the guy, right? And here's the thing, like, Tatum might not be a top-tier superstar in the sense that he might not be the kind of guy who's going to like crannially be in the MVP conversation. But he might be the perfect star for this kind of roster built.

He's playing with a lot of talented guys. But at the same time, most of these guys are talented guys that play best with an advantage, right? Jalen Brown's a guy that's got a good amount of audacity and shot-making ability to play on an island and kind of create for himself, right? Derek White has shown the ability to create for himself, right? But for the most part, especially against top-tier competition, you'd prefer to have Jalen Brown operating with advantage. You'd prefer to have Derek White operating with an advantage.

You'd prefer to have Drew Holiday operating with an advantage. You'd prefer to have Al Horford and Krasop Sporzingis operating with an advantage. And so having a somewhat passive superstar that is more willing to just kind of take advantage of the easy reads that are available. And again, like I talked about, I think he's one of the best playmaking forwards in the league. I think he's a better passer than most of his peers at the position. And I thought tonight was a great example of that. And so in a weird way, I actually think he might be perfect for this group in the sense that

if there was a real alpha dog superstar with this group, he might actually minimize some of the impact of the other five starter caliber players because they'd probably be relegated more to smaller roles. Now, there's a fine line because I do think that Tatum is going to have to be a effective and aggressive and efficient at the highest levels here. Like if they face Denver in the finals, I do think he's going to have to average 32, 33 points per game on something above 60% true shooting. So like, again, there's a fine line.

There always comes a point. Yokic ran into this and this series. There always comes a point where it's like, actually I need to do it myself. And the reason is I have the best physical gifts of any of my teammates. So in this hellhole of a fist fight of a stuck in the mud environment, I'm going to need to be the guy that uses my size and strength to be impactful here, right? So I do think he's going to have to be more aggressive as a score. But at the same time, like, he's just had his three best,

this three game stretch here over the tail end of the Cav series has been the best kind of scoring basketball that he's played in this postseason run. So he's kind of starting to get that rhythm and groove going at the right time. But, you know, I just, I just want to say, like, you know, Jason Tatum, we talked a lot about about him on the show over the course the last couple of weeks by virtue of the whole debate with Anthony Edwards, right? Which, by the way, was pitched as a mailback question by one of you guys. But like, when it comes to Tatum in a weird way, he might be the perfect fit for this team. I just think the final challenge for him, the final piece to push over the top if he wants to

get the trophy is going to be identifying when it's like, hey, screw this no hierarchy stuff, me the damn basketball. And by the way, he did tonight. He didn't do it as a score. He did it as a passer. But he will eventually face a team down the line that has better personnel, probably Denver. Could be a little bit of a challenge in the next round if the Knicks make it, right? But like, he will face a challenge where that specific type of heliocentric shot creation kind of stretch at the tail end of a game requires him to be more aggressive as a score. And when he gets to that point, he'll need to confront that challenge and pass that challenge. but I just want to shout to Jason Tatum.

I thought he had a great, a great close to the game tonight. We're not going to really work, focus on the next round yet for Boston until we find out who their opponent is. It's going to be interesting if it ends up being the Knicks, who I believe it will be,

just simply because the Knicks do not have the talent to hang with Boston, but they sure as hell can drag you down into the mud and they're going to play hard all the time. And Boston has had a little bit of an issue with inconsistent effort. And so I do think that'll be a longer series, although I'll be picking Boston to win,

but we'll get into more detail on that when we get out of the, um, out of this round entirely. Moving on to Cleveland. Where do they go from here? There was a report released from the athletic immediately after the game. A couple of interesting kind of like tidbits in there. First of all,

there's growing optimism around the league that Mitchell might extend. Thought that was interesting because there's been a lot of narrative based stuff about him, about him wanting to leave. I don't think you can take that to the bank necessarily, but that's somewhat encouraging if you're a Cavs fan, right? But then it immediately got kind of counteracted by this report from Darius Garland, who is with Clutch Sports, excuse me, that some of his production

has gone down since the Mitchell trade, and that if Cleveland extends Donovan Mitchell, that he may want to trade. And so the point is, is they're definitely, it's looking more and more like they're going to need to choose between one of those two guys. Now, I want to kind of talk about the roster build in general first before we talk about some specific, some specific kind of strategy stuff for them going into the offseason. So we knew going into this year, it's kind of a similar, type of problem that the Lakers had where they've got some redundancies, right? The Lakers have two skill guards and they have two power forwards playing at the three and four, right? And so there's some diminishing returns because it's like all of a sudden you don't have a forward decking

guard on the perimeter. So now Ruey's chasing Michael Porter Jr. around, that's a disaster. It was one of the big factors that cost him a series. You have two skill guards, no real athletes. So you get inconsistent play from both of them. And then Austin Reeves is forced to guard Jamal all series, which is something that hurt them, especially at the end of games, right? So like, when you have diminishing returns because of redundant, or when you have redundancies in your roster, you tend to get diminishing returns. Cavs kind of have a similar type of situation, right? Two interior-based bigs that play at the same time, and then two ball-dominant pick and roll guards, neither of which is particularly big and neither of which is particularly committed

to the point of attack defensively. And so there can be some redundancy. There can be some diminishing returns there. Now, I want to focus on each of him individually. So first of all, the two guard build. I actually grew more optimistic about it this year, just because of Donovan Mitchell's defense. I thought he had the best defensive season of his career. But when they got to the playoffs, Donovan, Donovan's workload went up such a huge level that it kind of became untenable to ask him to continue to do the athletic guard stuff defensively while also carrying everything he was carrying offensively.

And Donovan did not have as good of a defensive postseason as he did in the regular season, particularly in help he got burned quite frequently, right? So like I do think that when you really kind of take a second to decompress and look back at this season, it's just a lot to ask for those two guards to kind of mesh in the right way. And so I do believe that that's probably the direction that you have to go is splitting up the two guard build. Also, I think Max Struz, because of his kind of his willingness to play off the ball offensively is kind of like an off-screen threat and as a spot-up threat. And then a Struz is just, is just completely committed to the defensive end in terms of like he will, he will give you high motor effort there at the point of attack all season, right?

So I actually think of Struz more as a two next to Garland or Mitchell, whichever one you end up keeping. And I look at the three as the position you want to upgrade and try to find a starting caliber two-way player there, right? You got to base the decision based on what Donovan Mitchell wants because Donovan Mitchell is a better player than Darius Garland. I like Darius Garland. I don't think he has too much of a of a ceiling that's going to be super, super encouraging, right? So if Mitchell extends, I think you look to trade Garland for a starting caliber three. If Mitchell doesn't extend, then I would trade Donovan Mitchell and keep and commit to Darius Garland, right? Now, the interesting thing there is which one of those guys commits.

If it ends up being Mitchell wants to trade and you keep Garland, I think you have to look for more of a high-powered offensive-minded forward. That's where it might be worthwhile, especially with Evan Mobley's defensive versatility and his ability to compete on the perimeter, to look more at some of the offensive guys. Like maybe you do look for a guy like a Lory Markinen, right? Like maybe you do look for a more of like an offensive threat

at that position, right? Maybe a Kyle Kuzma or something like that, right? But if it's Mitchell that you keep and you end up trading Garland, And Mitchell is such a high-powered offensive player. I'd be looking for more of a two-way threat at the three. That's where I'd be looking more at like a McHale Bridges. Maybe you call Brooklyn and you try to see if you can trade Darius Garland for a guy like McHale Bridges, right?

Like that's kind of the tipping point there is, I don't think Garland is high-powered enough offensively for you not to have a scoring forward next to him. Mitchell, I think, can play with more of like a versatile two-way Swiss Army knife type of forward because of the impact that he has offensively. As far as the two bigs looks, the look goes, Mowgli's offensive development isn't where you want it to be at this point, but it is coming along little by little.

And he did make progress this year. Also, like, he's just not big enough to be a full-time center. And so the way I look at it, the athletic and size and rebounding advantages that come from the Mowgli-Alan front court exceed the downsides of some of their offensive limitations. And Mowgli will continue to get better over the years. And so when I look at like the core build of,

Cleveland, I think of it is, whichever one of the two guards you keep, Strew set the two, I'd stick with Mobley Allen and just try to upgrade that three spot depending on which one of the two guards that you end up getting. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw,

unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast.

It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes.

Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tauntons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

What the hell does George Bush got to do? do a little kill. Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill

waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but yeah, yeah, literally. But just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS.

on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, before we get out of here, let's take a look at our mailbag. Assuming they stay healthy, is this version of the Nuggets unstoppable? I can't see anyone left beating them in a seven game series. So I've been really impressed by Denver, and I do think that their offense is unstoppable in the sense that, like over the last three games, they have an offensive rating over 127. And we're talking about a Minnesota Timberwolves team

that not only was the best defense in the league in the regular season, was clearly the best defense in the league through the first six playoff games and is literally constructed by a former Denver executive to be, tailor made to beat the Denver Nuggets, right? And they sure as hell can't stop. Like, you know, there's been a lot of talk about Rudy Gobert after last night's game. And like, do I think Rudy Gobert deserves all four defensive player of the year? Not necessarily. I don't think he's the best defensive player in the league. And I think he's got a deeply entrenched media backing that kind of gives him a lot of a leg up when it comes reward season. But I do think

he's a top five-ish defensive player in the league. And it's more just fascinating that Rudy Gobert was targeting him simply from the standpoint of Yokic's greatness. That for him, he's thinking, oh, that guy, that guy that's the best defensive player of the world, I'd rather attack him on an island because then I don't have to worry about him and help. And I know that I can go through him whenever I want. And so that's more of a testament to Yokic than anything else.

But I do think that Denver clearly demonstrated that they can score on anybody. Now, here's the thing. The Lakers and the Timberwolves gave the Nuggets issues for different reasons, right? The Lakers gave the Nuggets issues because they have incredible interior passing. LeBron James and Anthony Davis and Rui Hachamura cutting along the baseline, rolling to the basket and ball screens. LeBron going downhill. DeLo and Austin is spacing shooters.

They have so much offensive firepower in their starting lineup. Remember, that team was what, third and second or third in offense for the last half of the season, if I remember correctly. So, like, that was an elite offense. but their issue was they didn't have the personnel to contain Jamal Murray. And so they constantly ended up dealing with problems late in games with getting stops on Jamal Murray. So Denver was able to overcome that matchup by being like, oh, that's great that you guys are so good offensively, but we're better offensively, right? The Minnesota series was different because Minnesota, it's like they've got excellent perimeter defenders.

Instead of Austin Reeves on Jamal Murray, now it's Nikiel Alexander Walker and J.D. McDaniels and Anthony Edwards. and they have given him hell in this series for the most part, right? Yokic, it's like wave after wave of size. Like the Lakers did not have a too big look. Minnesota does, right? Minnesota's got these kind of big, trunky power forward center hybrids that they put in front of Gobert.

And so there's like this layered approach to their defense that really gave Denver some problems. But the way that Denver was able to regain control of that series is Minnesota's offense sucks. And so as soon as Denver really engaged themselves defensively, they were able to grind that Minnesota offense into the ground, right? This is where Boston is unique. Boston has both the perimeter talent to make life more difficult on Jamal Murray,

Contavius Calabopo, Reggie Jackson, and Michael Porter, Jr. While also having the, and I'm talking about the defense event, while also having the super high-powered offense on the other end. Now, the counterpoint is Chris Opsingis and Al-Horford, Hank Gard and Koliokic. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. That's going to be a disaster.

But the way I would, the flip side there is if Minnesota can't stop them, like what advantage is there really? Because if Yokic and Murray in that offense are going to rip through Minnesota's defense to the tune of 127 something points per 100 possessions, then it really doesn't matter what defensive personnel Minnesota has,

especially when they go over to the other end and Minnesota can't score. And so Boston, I actually think, has the capability to get into a, shootout with Denver and win. Now, I will be picking Denver to win that series. I think they are more consistently at their ceiling and I think they are the safe bet. I believe Denver's going to win the championship. But I do not think this is just over. I think Boston has a really good chance. I think Boston, specifically one of the things with Boston, we talked about the high drop coverage that they've been using against Anthony Edwards, right? I did a whole video breakdown on it today. Yokic did an amazing job

in game five at the level of the screen containing Anthony Edwards using active hands to force turnovers. He just had a great defensive game. He's been great defensively for the last three games. But the problem there is you can take the ball on Anthony Edwards hands because there's just no offensive talent around him, especially with Mike Conley's not out there. It's like, oh, you went with the high drop against Ant or you double teamed Ant on an ISO and you got the ball out of his hands. That's great. Well, off the ball, I have Rudy Gobert, who can barely catch and finish. can't read the floor is just an absolute disaster offensively. Carl Anthony Towns, who like, yeah, if he's making his three-point shot,

it can get going offensively, but Aaron Gordon has basically contained him on the drive. The keel Alexander Walker, who's really streaky and Jada McDaniels, has been bad offensively through this entire postseason run, right? So, like, they just don't have offensive talent off of Anthony Edwards to capitalize on those aggressive coverages. If Denver goes with similar coverages, and I actually think Denver will probably run more deep drop against Boston and we'll get into that more if those two teams actually advanced to the finals. But in the event that they run more aggressive coverages and load up, Jason Tatum is one of the

best skit passers in the league and he's not passing to limited offensive players. He's passing passing to really high level offensive players that can all shoot. And so Boston I think is actually uniquely equipped to score on Denver and also make things somewhat more difficult for them on the defensive end. Again, I will be picking Denver, but it's going to be closed. I think it's going to be a great series. And I do think that Boston certainly presents a lot of challenges for Denver. By the way, Boston shot like shit in both of the regular season games against Denver. And they were still right there in both of those games.

So again, picking Denver, but don't ride off Boston. I absolutely think they can win that series. And I do not think this is over. And that's how it should be. I want it to be difficult. That's the best part about adversity in NBA history. You want to see what Yokic can do against. that next level of that challenge.

And I'm glad it's going to be in the finals. And by the way, neither team is there. Denver still has to get past Oklahoma City, Dallas, and obviously Boston still has to get past New York, Indiana. I just expect them to, those of you guys have listened to the show. I've been on Boston, Denver, and the finals basically the entire season. All right. Hey, Jason, love the show.

And Mavs OKC, both stars performed, both teams decent from three, but the difference is the use of the bigs. Chat needs the ball more, do you agree? So it's tough because with the way that with the way that Dallas is loading up on ball screens, particularly at the rim and at the point of attack and in ISO, there's not really a ton of opportunity for Chet to score on the role because there's a lot of congestion in there. So most of it comes down to Chet needs to be operating in advantage situations more.

And that's not going to happen unless those kickout passes were happening. And again, like I talked about earlier, Oklahoma City just hasn't done a very good job of taking advantage of those kickout opportunities. How do the Mavs get Kyrie going? So Karee is getting, both teams have really good primaries. or defenders, right? It's been difficult for everybody. Luca and Shea have managed to break out a little bit because they're both, you know, top six or seven players in the NBA, depending on where you want to rank Shea.

I think Luca's the second best player in the NBA, right? I think we'll take a look at it in the offseason, but I think saying Shay's top five is not, you know, completely out of the realm of reality, right? Like he's, I want to see how the rest of the postseason goes before I do those rankings, but those are two really, really, really good players. And so they've managed to breakout in a couple of games, but they've also had bad games, right? Like, I thought Shea was pretty bad in game two and game three. I think game three in particular, I think he was like 10 for 23 from the field and was really struggling to knock down those mid-range jumpers, right?

Luca was a disaster in game four, right? Like, a lot of this is just Lou Dorts awesome at defense. Jalen Williams, Ks-on-Wallis, these guys are awesome at defense. Derek Jones, Jr., PJ Washington, the rim protection. Chet Holmgren has been amazing defensively in the series. I saw a crazy stat today. I don't know if it actually survived tonight. I'll have to check real quick.

But I saw a stat that Chet has won his shifts in every single game this year in the playoffs. That's crazy. Let's see if he did it again tonight. Minus 10. So Chet lost his shift tonight, his shifts for the first time in the entire postseason. So like both of these teams are really strong at the point of attack and really strong at the rim. But yeah, as far as Kyrie goes, like I actually think Kyrie has done a really nice job of just doing what he can to help winning. Like tonight even just there's a huge three he hit off of a ball screen to put them up

14. I think it was in the early fourth quarter if I remember correctly. And it's like he's not getting great looks, but he's just finding a way to make shots and timely moments. Kyrie's playmaking has been a huge asset to the series. Kyrie's been excellent defensively in this series. I'm sure you MAV's fans would agree. But like yeah, Kyrie needs to get going offensively if you're going to like beat Denver in the next round. There's no doubt. But like credit Oklahoma City and Kyrie's just finding other ways to impact winning. Well, the Nuggets beat the 2022 Warriors. I think the Nuggets are the best team that I've seen in the NBA since the KD. Steff Warriors.

So I do think they beat the 2022 Warriors. Again, that's not a discredit to the 2022 Warriors as a championship team. They're a bona fide championship winning team. But so much of that was Steph just overcoming everything for his team. And that team, a bunch of key guys overachieved, particularly Jordan Poole and Andrew Wiggins. But in terms of like sheer force of power and size, I do think that the, that Denver was better. This version of Denver is better. But again, like, I think Denver is going to repeat this year.

So like the last, the last team to repeat was the Katie Staff Warriors. Before that, it had been almost what had been, what, six years or so earlier that it was the LeBron James Heat, right? and before that it was the Lakers like it happens really rarely in NBA history and so if Denver can pull that off that's impressive not to mention that I think the league is just freaking stacked with talent right now so a repeat championship would be a really special accomplishment how much does the Chrisops Sforzingis injury impact the Celtics title chances in your opinion obviously I think they need him to beat Denver but you've got three weeks until Denver so I don't think it matters all that much just simply because I think he's going to be healthy when the time comes. But yeah, if Khrostop's Porzengis gets hurt or gets

re-injured along the way, that just makes it difficult because Denver is just a really damn good team and I think you need all hands on deck for it. Let's see. Who is more valuable to the nuggets, Murray or Gordon? To me, it seems Gordon is more valuable, is the more valuable player, anchors the defense and has many outstanding offensive traits. A couple things. Murray is, again, from the same point of process, you can't talk about Murray's injury. he just needs to find a way to be better like we've talked about. But he obviously is a little bit hampered. And a lot of it is matchup based, right?

Like this is a series that Denver is dominated on the interior. Jamal Murray was never going to be the way you beat Minnesota. Minnesota's perimeter defenders are too good, right? And honestly, like, I thought he got pretty good looks against the Lakers. He just was cold and then he got hot at the right times. And like every single time they needed Jamal Murray in the Lakers series, he showed up and he made shots. I do think that overall it's very close between those two guys,

but I think I'd lean very slightly towards Jamal Murray. But every single one of those players in that starting lineup is pretty close in terms of impact. Like can't write off Michael Porter Jr. He was unbelievable, especially through the first like six playoff games this year. Minnesota has been way more keyed in on him over the last few games. But he's hit some big shots too. I think Michael Porter Jr., especially as a help defender and rebounder, he brings a lot to the table. Contavius'

Colopo Pope is the guy you're asking to guard the other team's best perimeter player every night. So you got to give him some credit there too. And he hit a bunch of huge threes in game five. So I think all those guys are of are vitally important. But if I had to pick a true number two, even though Aaron Gordon's having a magnificent playoff run, I think I still lean slightly towards Jamal Murray. Let's see.

I'll do two, two more. Then we'll get out of here. Does Dallas match up well with Denver or Minnesota? So, uh, I, again, I think Denver is going to win. So I'll talk about it more from the Dallas Denver perspective. Obviously, we'll confront it from Minnesota's perspective if they happen to flip the script and win the last two games. But the thing with Dallas, again, it's going to be a big part of it is going to be Luca.

I think you're going to see similar types of coverages from the standpoint of Denver, you know, kind of being up at the level. And Yoke it specifically Luca has that gift like we talked about earlier of manipulating the backline of the defense. But a big advantage there is they have the Aaron Gleck. Gordon piece. So like what a what a huge luxury to have Aaron Gordon if you do run into a KD, if you do run into a LeBron, if you do run into a Kauai, if you do run into a Luca that you can put him on a big forward from the other team. And I think Aaron Gordon is a guy that's going to have some size and quickness to make things somewhat difficult on Luca Donchich. I think Dallas will be able to score in that series. But similarly to what we talked about earlier, I think that the

front line for Denver would do a ton of damage. I think I think I think I think I think I it'll, I'm going to say exactly what I said after the Laker series. I thought Minnesota had a similar type of chance to beat Denver because they were so bad offensively, right? Dallas, I actually think kind of brings a better combination of offensive ability and defensive ability. I do think that they'll compete with Denver, but I just think overall, it's the same kind of story we've been talking about. They're a really good offense, but they're not as good offensively as Denver. They're really good defense, but Denver's as good, as good, if not better defensively. Denver was the top 10 defense this year.

So again, I think Dallas will compete, but I'd be picking Denver. And we'll get into the, to the nitty gritty of that series if it ends up coming to fruition. Let's see. Ooh, we've got a Star Wars one. So I'll do,

I'll do one more basketball question, and then we'll do a Star Wars question. For the wolves, would you trade cat for a reliable perimeter initiator guard that can score slash playmake like a Tyree Dejante archetype next to ant? Yes, the idea is,

the ideal situation, you want a really good, skill guard next to ant. Ant's your athlete guard. You want a skill guard. Just think like a kind of like a bigger, better version of Mike Conley, right? I still like Jada McDaniels at the three, but I think

you need a really high level offensive player, especially as a shooter at the two in that case. Carl Anthony Towns gives you the means with which to make that type of deal because he has value around the league and you have a redundancy there. You have Nas Reid. And you have to kind of look at it from the standpoint of luxury. It doesn't matter how much depth you have

if your top five is not good enough. And so I do think that the best option moving forward for Minnesota is to trade Carl Anthony Towns. You got to wait to see who becomes available this summer. Dejante Murray is actually an interesting type of player in the sense that he can kind of take some more of the primary point of attack assignments to save Ant's legs. Dejante just had his best perimeter shooting season of his career. It also gives you another offensive creator that can create dribble penetration, which is something nobody else on that team can do but Ant.

Like Kat can't beat people off the dribble. my conno can't beat people off the dribble. So like Dejante's kind of an interesting kind of guy to look at. Also, if I'm Atlanta, I'd be really interested in Carl Anthony Towns as a partner alongside Jalen Johnson and Trey Young. So that might actually be an interesting route for them to look at. What is your favorite Star Wars movie from the first two trilogies? This is an interesting one. I think I'm going to go with Revenge of the Sith.

and the reason why is like I I've always been super fascinated by the history of the SIF. Those of you guys who don't know, I'm a diehard Star Wars fan, but I'm particularly big on fantasy. Really like Star Wars, really like Game of Thrones, really like Lord of the Rings. I have a podcast that I do with my buddy Luke. It's called Two Sons. You can actually see the logo down here. We just recently hit like the Shogun series. We hit Fallout.

out, really, really loved Fallout. Don't know how many of you guys were into that video game growing up, but that was an incredible one for me. But we actually just did a big breakdown on the Acolyte trilogy, or the Acolyte trailer, I should say. And in that trailer, there were some Easter eggs that really kind of lead me to believe that that show has a lot more to do with kind of flushing out some of the history of the Sith. I got super, I, apologies, message me said,

Are the Twitter rumors true that you love Episode 9 and applauded in the theater when Palpatine return? I'll get to that in a minute. I have a story. But anyway, the Acolyte, I think, is going to be about some of the history of the Sith, particularly surrounding how the Jedi discover the rule of two. It's kind of like a big plot hole in Star Wars. I won't get into it right now because if you want to listen to that, you can go to my other podcast to see it. But some of my favorite Star Wars books are like the Darth Bain trilogy, which explains the actual originate, originate. origination of the rule of two.

And then also this book called Darth Plagueis, which Darth Plagis effectively, it effectively kind of functions as a, as a, what's the word I'm looking for? As a precursor. I'm blanking on the obvious word for a movie that, that comes before the actual series. Paul, you could probably text it to me.

But it's a precursor to the Phantom Menace, right? Prequel, thank you. It's a prequel. Basically functions as a prequel to the, the phantom menace. And in it, it just goes into excruciating detail of like where, you know, there's a Sith or named Darth Penebrose who had an apprentice named Darth Plaguez, who ended up finding Palpatine. And it intricately lays out what's called the Sith Grand Plan. And basically, the Sith used to be thousands, right? And then a thousand years before the Phantom Menace,

there was this big war with the Brotherhood of Darkness, the Jedi One, partially through manipulation of Darth Bain, which you can read in those books. books. But from there, the Sith started to realize they can't win against the Jedi because they don't have the teamwork ability to be able to come together and reach a common goal. The Sith all backstab each other because they all want to be the Dark Lord of the Sip, right? And so they come up with this system called the Rule of Two where there's always one master, one apprentice, and it just kind of allows them to operate in hiding. But the major theme is they are trying to secretly subvert the galaxy.

They obviously conceptualize and come up with the clone war. They obviously, they create the clone army. They do all of this stuff, right? And it all comes to fruition in Revenge of the Sith. And so every time I watch Revenge of the Sith, I always just think back to the Bain books and the Plagueist books. And I just think about specifically, like this genius grand plan that,

that obviously George Lucas conceptualized, but that the Sith came up with. and it kind of all comes together in that particular movie. So of all the prequel trilogy, I think I would say Revenge of the Sith is my favorite. But again, I've done deep dive summaries and reviews of all those books I just mentioned and basically every piece of Star Wars content on my Two Suns podcast with my buddy Luke. I'm also going to be doing every episode of the Acolyte when it comes out, which is less than a month from now. So make sure you guys head over there and subscribe to that channel so you guys can see some of that content in the future.

All right, guys, let's call it a night. We're just going to run a breakout of the mailbag tomorrow morning. So there will be some content tomorrow morning between the other segments we did tonight. But I'm not going to do a show, like a new show in the morning. I'll just see you guys after the final buzzer of Nuggets Wolves tomorrow night. I think Denver's going to go in there and win and complete the gangster suite. But we will see what happens. And I will see you guys live on YouTube tomorrow night.

The volume. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get. your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway

with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability

that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes.

Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of taun tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith Rule of Two. Listen to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.