The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - Mavericks-Timberwolves Mailbag: Luka Doncic greatness, Anthony Edwards will be back

Episode Date: June 1, 2024

Jason Timpf answers listener questions during an NBA Mailbag segment on Luka Doncic, Kyrie Irving, and the Dallas Mavericks' Western Conference Finals win over Anthony Edwards, Karl-Anthony Towns, and the Minnesota Timberwolves. Jason discusses Luka Doncic's run for best player in the world, how Dallas was able to exploit flaws in Minnesota, and why Anthony Edwards and the Wolves will be back next season. Timeline: 04:00 - Introduction 07:03 - When Jason knew Game 5 was over 08:00 - Greatness from Luka Doncic 10:25 - How Luka conserves energy during games 11:52 - What future of center position looks like 16:41 - Anthony Edwards is still on superstar path 21:58 - Rudy Gobert issues 26:00 - Difference between Mavs & Nuggets vs. Wolves 29:26 - Dereck Lively's potential 30:34 - Can Wolves beat Nuggets without Gobert? 32:30 - The flaw Minnesota MUST fix 35:46 - Should Wolves trade Gobert? 38:03 - Best backcourt in NBA history 41:47 - Best landing spot for KAT 43:15 - Has playoffs been disappointing? 46:24 - Would Nuggets have beaten Mavericks? 48:44 - Is Ant to blame for Wolves' issues? #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

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Happy Friday, everybody. Hope all of you guys had a great week. As promised from last night, we're going to do a mailbag today. I'm actually recording three completely separate mailbags. We had like 100 mailbag questions in the YouTube video last night. And so I divided them into three segments. Today's mailbag is just going to focus on the Western Conference Finals and fallout from that series for both teams. Some big picture topics about the Mavericks in a vacuum and some stuff about Minnesota heading into their offseason.

Tomorrow, the entire mailbag is going to be centered around the NBA finals. So a lot of Dallas-Boston type of topics, right? And then Sunday morning's mailbag is going to be focused on the NBA at large. So I just kind of took all your guys' mailbags question, all your mailbag questions from last night and just kind of filtered them into those three categories. So Western Conference Finals today, NBA Finals tomorrow, NBA at large on Sunday. You guys know the drill before we get started. Subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on Twitter at underscore Jason LT so you guys don't miss show announcements.

Don't forget about our podcast feed wherever you get your podcast under Hoops Tonight. And then keep dropping mailback questions in those YouTube comments. so we keep hitting them throughout the rest of the postseason. And the last minute at least, before we get started, I want to talk to you guys about game time. Try to get out and see an NBA finals game in person. Obviously, it's fun watching basketball on TV, but nothing compares to the intensity and the stakes of witnessing that level of basketball in person.

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So first mailback question, centering around the end of the Western Conference finals last night. In which corner did you start recording this episode? It came out like five minutes after the buzzer in reference to the fact that our instant reaction came out pretty quickly last night. It's funny, I had a conversation with our producers last night, and I started working on the show right at halftime. I knew that game was over. And what's interesting, and there's a specific question about this later on in the mailbag,

but they were, you know, a team that had come back from a large deficit before. They were down 20 in the Western, in the second round series against Denver on the road. and they came back to win that game. But I just, I had a feeling that game was just completely over. I thought Luca had mentally dominated Minnesota, sat them of their confidence. I thought it was over. And so we just got started working on the pod nice and early.

And my wife was very appreciative as we got to have a little nightcap last night. I'm glad you're making the points that you are. People are going to talk about what happened to Minnesota, what happened to their scheme, why they did not perform, et cetera. But in my opinion, there's only one thing that happened tonight. Greatness by Luca Donchich happened tonight. That's it. Game summary done. The 98 Jazz were a championship caliber team.

The 2016 Warriors were a championship team, but they both just lost to greatness, plain and simple. We throw around the title of great, way too much in this league, but this is what it actually looks like and it doesn't happen often. I completely agree. You know, I think that there's a desire, I've noticed this a lot, especially from the analytics community. There's a desire to try to like have a very clear answer,

like a solution to the problem, which I totally, understand that's the way people like that are wired. And I'm wired like that in a lot of ways too. I, before I got into playing basketball in college, I was an engineering student. So I thought very much from a math perspective with things. And like that was kind of, that is kind of the, just a goal of everybody when they're looking at a game. It's like, how can we solve this problem? Where's the, where's the, the simple and detailed explanation of why this happened? And you guys know, like, I love to get into that sort of thing. And, we do when I think it matters. Like whenever there, we talk a lot about adjustments. We talk a lot

about the tactics that are taking place on the basketball court. But at the end of the day, there are sometimes, there are some situations where intangible things can have a greater impact. And yeah, I 100% agree. I didn't, I saw a lot of Mavericks fans in the comments last night. Like, oh, Lively was back. That's why we won. And it's like, I know Lively is super valuable to you guys. I'm not trying to minimize that. But no, that's not why you won last night. And it's not why you lost game four. Game 4 because the Timberwolves went into your arena and they outplayed you. And then in game 6 or 5 in particular, Luca was so aggressive earlier. Luca personally scored on four of the first six possessions of the game.

He had that run towards the end of the first quarter that turned, what, an 18-18 tie into 31-18 or something like that, if I remember correctly, that Luca snatched their confidence at the start of that game. And then Minnesota stopped executing. They started kicking the ball all over the floor where they have nine turnovers in the first half. none of them can make a shot. I literally thought that was the game last night. There was no tactical adjustment.

There was no fancy explanation for what happened other than Luca went into that arena and he destroyed the Minnesota Timberwolves and they never had any chance to regain their footing. How does Luca know one to effectively rest during an offensive possession every once in a while? I feel like this has never talked about enough and it is so important to his game management

given he isn't a top tier athlete. 100% agree. It reminds me a lot of the dynamic he had that Kyrie had with LeBron James. And there's two phases to this. First, shout out to Kyrie Irving because Kyrie Irving's ability to kind of operate on an island by himself

is a very unique trait to him that I think makes him super valuable to these do everything forwards. Like Luca, like LeBron James, even like a Nicola Yolkich, right? I think Jamal Murray kind of plays that role for Denver as well, right? And to me, what it is is like,

this is where Luca's ability to shoot the catch and shoot three, broke out over what, game three and game five of this series in a big way. But like him being able to just stand on the wing 26, 27 feet from the basket and hit catch and shoot threes, that is an important part of his ability to rest while having Kyrie go to work. Because obviously if you throw extra defenders at him, Kyrie's got to make reads. But the unique thing with Kyrie is he can dribble the ball at the floor against ball pressure. He can use a ball screen or use a guard guard screen to get a mismatch. And he can go to work on an island, dribble 25 times in a

possession and get a good shot for himself. And it's a unique value for Kyrie. But again, the important piece is you got to be able to play off the ball and that requires you to be able to knock down, catch and shoot jump shots, which Luca has been using a little bit more frequently towards the end of this playoff run. Hey, Jason, love the show. Are Daniel Gafford and Derek lively examples of what the future of what the future of the center position will look like? Athletic Bigs, solid defenders, but with low volume scoring, love to hear your thoughts. So there's multiple different constructs of NBA offense at this point. and you know, there's, I'm not going to sit here and pretend like Dallas doesn't have complications.

They certainly do. We talked about in game four, those you guys who watched the film session, or half of the film session, because YouTube picked us to pieces on that one. It was so annoyed. I was so frustrated. I spent like four hours on that video. It was like 50 minutes long, and we had to cut almost half of the video out. That was really frustrating for me. But in that video, I think we got, I never went back to watch the edited portion, but I think we were able to keep some of the stuff in the second half. And I showed some of examples of stack pick and roll that Dallas is running, which is basically where you have a shooter underneath the basket, back screen for the roll man as he's coming downhill.

And they were doing some damage to go bare in that respect. So Dallas does run some complications in their offense, but they are more of what I would call a four out one in offense. So the two primary forms of offense that I see around the NBA right now are four out one in offense and five out offense. And the four out one in offense is very simple. It's play finishing. and play initiation. So it's like, shooter in the corner, he's not moving, he's standing there, he's taking a corner three. Shooter in the other corner, he's not standing.

He's staying there, he's taking a corner three, or he's driving the close out, right? Same thing for the guy on the right wing, although that guy's usually a secondary shot creator in case Luca needs to bail out from a possession, right? And then it's the guy comes up and he sets a ball screen and Luca just works in that ball screen, right? Like that is, that to me is like the four-out type of offense. It's very like guys are set up to finish plays, a vertical spacer, The vertical spacer is your one in, right?

And then you've got your shooters in the corners and a shooter on the wing, right? Another team who runs a lot of that kind of stuff is like the Atlanta Hawks, for instance. They'll do that with Trey Young, right? So, like, that's, to me, the four-out kind of construct. The five-out construct is where the big man operates more as a dribble handoff fulcrum out on the perimeter. This is like DeMontosabonis with the Sacramento Kings. This is Draymond Green with the Golden State Warriors. This is Anthony Davis with the Los Angeles Lakers this year, right?

Like this is Nicola Yokic with the Denver Nuggets, right? Like this is much more of an offensive decision-making role for the big man. So like Daniel Gafford and Derek Lively, to me, are two very different types of centers. Daniel Gaffert, to me, is a four-out-one-in type of center? He's a guy that just wants to set ball-screen, or is at his best when he's setting ball screens and rolling hard to the rim? And as we know, he can struggle a little bit dealing with making decisions in the short role. Derek Lively can do both. Derek Lively can operate as a four-out-one-in center.

he's good screen and roll big who can vertically space the floor. He also can make decisions in blitz situations where he has to kind of operate as the decision maker in the four on three. But I also think if I picked up Derek lively and dropped him onto the Golden State Warriors, I think that he'd be really effective in that five-out system because his ability to make read and react decisions with the ball in his hands. But those to me are the two very different forms of offensive centers. As far as like the future of the center position, it's all about what.

your offense is, right? Like, there's a case to be made that the Yokic-Sabonis type of group, Nerkich type of group, that that is the future of the center position for five-out offenses, like a really good screener that can knock down the occasional jump shot that is a decision-maker in dribble handoff situations out on the perimeter. So, like, I don't think that those guys are the future of the center position. I think they're just an example of what four-out-one-in centers look like. And even then, I think that's an oversimplification because I think Derek lively could operate

in a five-out system. Anthony Edwards is the classic guy everyone falls in love with because of his athleticism. But I agree, I don't know if the decision-making will ever develop to the level of Yokic

or Luca Donchich. So I want to have Anthony Edwards is back here for a minute because it's not just, it's not just the, it's not just the athleticism. Obviously, that's an important part of it. I'm not going to sit here and pretend

like, like, like, Anne's athleticism isn't appealing to people or that that's not part of like kind of the energy that surrounds him around the league. I just think that we're underselling how good he was in this postseason. Again, even after that nightmarish conference final series, he was 28 points per game, seven rebounds and seven assists, okay? 28, 7 and 7. He was 48% from the field, 40% from 3, and 81% from the line. That in true shooting percentage is 60%. So he was literally 287 and on 60% true shooting.

That's not just we're buying the hype. That's not just Anthony Edwards is a media darling. That's fucking awesome basketball. That's awesome basketball for six weeks against Kevin Durant, Bradley Beale, and Devin Booker, and against the defending champs with the best player in the world in Nicole Yokic.

And while he was inconsistent defensively in this postseason run, a big part of how they won game seven was his defense in the second half against Jamal Murray. during the entirety of the, the Minnesota run in the second half where they went from down 20 to up five, he held Jamal Murray scoreless. So again, like, there, obviously we're in love with his athleticism, but there's more to it

than that. The dude showed real jump shot making ability. Once again, this is the third straight postseason where his jump shot has been resilient into the, throughout the playoffs. He's been a really big personality and his ability to kind of like just be fun to watch on television to invigorate his teammates and be a leader. Like, I think I had, I was annoyed last night because this is something that happens every year, by the way. Every year, there's like a new team that kind of starts to have some success.

Like this year, it's Dallas. Last year it was Denver. The year before that, it was Golden State. The year before that was Milwaukee. The year before that it's the Lakers, right? And every single year, their fan base goes, actually, we're the next great team and everyone else sucks and we're amazing. And then we get to the next year and then something happens, they lose. a new team takes that spot. And in that kind of energy from that fan base, whoever that fan base is, there's this desire to put everybody else down, right?

Like, every Denver fan just had victory laps on the, on the Sons and the Lakers for an entire off season, right? And then it's like then they end up losing in the second round this year. You know, Warriors fans, lots of victory laps after the 2022 season, and then the Lakers beat them in 2022, right? Like, at the end of the day, like, this stuff tends to be fleeting as a result of the fact that the league is very, very deep, there are certain teams that I think are resilient.

Like, I do think Denver will be back, right? Like, I think Dallas in particular is built for some sustained success over the next few years. So I think they'll be back. But like the idea that these teams are just going to rip off three, four championships in a row. That's just not how this works. And like, for whatever reason, Dallas fans can't just appreciate that they're having success and that they're going to get praise in the media. It has to be no, but also Anthony Edwards is a bum.

And that's just stupid. He averaged 28, 7 and 7 on 60% shooting at 22 years old in the NBA playoffs. That kid deserves flowers too. As far as Anthony Edwards in the big picture, I pointed this out on Twitter last night. But in LeBron James' age 22 season, the Spurs embarrassed him. He shot like something crazy, like 36% from the field in that series. He shot 20% from three. He averaged six turnovers a game.

he was nightmarishly bad in that Spurs series. And guess what? Now LeBron is like unanimously regarded as at least the second best player of all time, if not the best. So like Anthony Edwards, is he as good as Luca Donchich yet? No. Luca badly outplayed him in the series and clearly demonstrated a gap between the two of them. Specifically, I think one of the things that this playoff run emphasizes

that Anthony Edwards lacks matchup versatility at this point. If he's going against teams without athleticism on the perimeter and rim protection, he's going to demolish you. But as soon as he runs into matchups like that, it gets a little bit more difficult. That's something he's going to have to confront in the future. We're actually going to get to that later on in this show. But don't use this playoff run to bury Anthony Edwards.

That's silly. He's going to be back. If you're under the impression that the 22-year-old that averaged 28, 7, and 7 in the conference finals to eliminate the defending champs and that super team sons team, if you're under the impression that he's not going to be back on this stage, you're fooling yourself. He's going to be back and he's going to be better.

And that kid has so much room to grow because of his supreme athletic tools. I do think he's going to be, by the time he's Luca's age, by the time he's in that 25, 26, 27, I think he's going to be on that tier with Yokic, with Luca, with Janus. He's not there yet,

but I think he's going to get there. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced game. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast, Superhuman, documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me. of the fourth. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental, health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations,

stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes,

follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast, Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of taun tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith Rule of Two.

Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap little Kim's boo? at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day,

Yeah, yeah. But just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Now you're finishing that sentence. Yes.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a little context for this question. I ranted at the end of the show last night about how if you look back through NBA history,

you can't win a championship unless your center is some kind of offensive threat, either a legitimate like catch and finish threat or a perimeter threat, something along those lines. Like the last year, obviously Yokic, the year before that, Draymond Green, he's offensive fulcrum in the five out system for Golden State. Even though he has some limitations, he's a much, much better offensive player than Rudy Colbert. 2021, Brooke Lopez, 2022, Anthony Davis, right? even in their big looks like Dwight Howard was like a much better catch and finish player

around the rim than Rudy Gobert was. 2019, you know, we had Serge Baca and Mark Gassal, right? Kevin Durant and Raymond Green in the 1718, Kevin Love in 2016, Tim Duncan in 2014. We can go on and on and on, Chris Bosch on the Heat teams. Dirk Novitsky, you know, although that team with Tyson Chandler, Tyson Chandler was more like Derek Lively, a much better type of, a vertical spacer and decision maker on the role, right? So, like, in NBA history, you need a center that has at least some offensive capability

to win the title. Mailbag question. The other difference between the Rudy build and the Dallas build is that Dallas can win if Lively is making decisions. They're going to lose if Rudy is getting a lot of offensive touches. Totally agree. Derek Lively, to me, is a substantially better offensive player than Rudy Gobert. But the other piece of that, too, is like some of his spacing limitations,

like Lively not being a shooter is not a problem because one, Lively can make those decisions, two, Lively has great hands and catches and finishes everything around the basket. And then lastly, Luka Donchich is a deeply manipulative passer that can get really high quality opportunities around the basket. The problem for Rudy is he's not playing with that level of playmaker, and he has stone hands, and he can't make decisions on the role.

It's like the trifecta disaster for trying to score in the half court against an elite defense. Minnesota clearly disintegrated under Lucas barrage of points, but they were also down against Denver by 20 and still found a way to come back. What was different between Minnesota versus Denver Game 7 and this game? And why wasn't Minnesota able to compose themselves like they did against Denver? Love your videos, by the way. Really simple to me.

In the Denver series, Anthony Edwards, and this kind of, you know, I was talking without a modders about this last night because he pointed out fairly that Dallas or that Denver actually had a better defense. defensive rating against Minnesota than Dallas did. But some of the data there is a little tricky because that was like two different series. Like Minnesota dominated Denver outside of the middle portion of the series. Like Minnesota and the four wins whooped the shit out of Denver, right?

And then you look at the middle three games in Minnesota or in Denver beat the shit out of Minnesota in those three games, right? So the data is all wonky. And if you looked at it, Denver had a 116 defensive rating against Minnesota in their losses. but they had a 106 defensive rating in the wins. So like if you look at it, it's like in those three wins in game three, four, and five, Denver locked down Minnesota's offense. That's great.

But you got destroyed in the other four games. The Dallas series was very different. In every single game of the series, Dallas guarded Minnesota well. They held them, it was like 112 defensive rating in their wins, and 113 in the one loss. So in terms of like consistently holding down Minnesota's offense, Dallas was way better than Denver. In the four losses, Denver just couldn't get stops against Minnesota.

Specifically, what stood out to me on film, Anthony Edwards in the Denver series averaged 7.1 attempts in the restricted area per game. In this series against Dallas, he averaged just 5.8 restricted area attempts per game. So that's 1.3 fewer attempts. He also shot 19% worse in the restricted area against Dallas. than he did against Denver. He shot 55% in the restricted area against Dallas, 74% against Denver. And so for me, what stood out was every time there was a half court situation, Anthony Edwards didn't really know what to do against Dallas. Whereas against Denver, he just felt like he could get to his spots more easily at the rim. And that's why Denver had to just start hard doubling all over the place. Now, Dallas also did some doubling against Minnesota as well, but they have more rim protection and athleticism on the back line, which allowed them to rotate out of it better than Denver did.

They would load up the side against Ant and then he'd swing, swing, and then all of a sudden, Nas Reid would be slashing a closeout, and Denver just didn't have the athleticism to hang on that backside, right? And so, like, the Denver series, by the way, I'm only talking about one side of the floor. The offensive side was the same. Like, in the Denver series, Minnesota held them to something crazy, like 106 points per 100 possessions for the entire. series, whereas Dallas averaged like 118 points per 100 possessions. So Dallas's offense was way better against Minnesota's defense than Denver's offense was. And so really, in the Denver series, it was like Minnesota actually was capable of slowing down Denver's offense and they

were actually able to score, whereas against Dallas they couldn't do either. And so that's why even though there was another large deficit, I just never felt like Minnesota had a shot to come back in that game. My jaw dropped. Watching live live live, at the level of the screen, stick with Ant as he tried to string lively out to attack the rim. He literally had to reset the offense. With his defense in space at seven feet, his rim protection and a short roll passing, what are we watching? Some horrifying fusion of Draymond and AD.

I wouldn't go that far. I feel like that's a little early and a little bit hyperbolic. But I am really, really excited to see the type of player that Derek lively becomes. I imagine him being like a Tyson Chandler 2.0, like an evolutionary vertical spacer. that has the ability to run five out, to operate more in space. I actually think he's got good touch. So I'm really curious to see over the years if he adds a pick and pop element to his game. Like I think Derek lively can be very, very good.

But like, you're using Dremont and AD is fusing the two best defensive players of this era. I would slow down a little bit on that. I think we need to see him actually anchor a defense for 82 games playing 32, 34 minutes a night before we start throwing him in those conversations. but that certainly is potential that Derek lively has, and I'm really, really excited to see if he can meet that over the course of his career. The issue with the idea of Minnesota moving away from their amazing inside defense

and focusing mostly on perimeter defense is that you do not beat Denver in a seven-game series if you value perimeter D more than inside D. And without the double big man setup, you cannot slow down Yokic. The T-wolves do not beat Denver if they do not have Gobert at the 5. I actually disagree about this. As good as Go-Ber was in this playoff run on the defensive end of the the floor. And I do think his defensive effort in this postseason was underrated based on some of the low lights of him getting hunted and just some of the narrative stuff surrounding him. I thought the

bigger factor in Denver struggling against Minnesota was Nasreed and Carl Anthony Towns. And it's because those guys could hold up under the bully ball attack of Yokic because of their bigger frames, right? Like I actually thought Gobert got mostly fried by Yokic in that series. And then by the end of the series, Yokic kind of had figured out the stunting that Gobert was doing. And that was a big part of how Denver got back into it because Yokic was just killing them in that middle portion of the series. Obviously, it's going to be tougher to beat Denver if you don't have Gobert, but I still think they can because they'll have a too big look with Nas Reid and Carl Anthony Towns. And this is in this scenario that I've discussed, if they pivot off of Gobert, they would upgrade that

power forward spot to a really high-level offensive player. And let's not forget that during the stretches where Denver dominated in that series, they really slowed down Minnesota's offense. And so, again, I think you can still build a team that can beat Denver without Rudy Gobert. And it doesn't matter if the Gober lineup can beat Denver, but you get your ass kicked by Dallas because Gobert's stone hands and his inability to make decisions on the role, then you're not in any sort of better position anyway. It's not about beating Denver to win the title. You've got to be four teams to win the title. So you might have to sacrifice a little bit of your capability to beat Denver to make yourself more versatile to beat the other teams around the league. Hey Jason, love your show. Such

an enjoyment to hear your breakdowns after each playoff game helps appreciate the game at a whole new level. Thank you for the kind words. Want to hear your thoughts on the wolves. People say defense wins championships. However, when I look at the Timberwolves, it seems like they really lack an offensive identity. How could it be fair to expect cat to play well when he could get benched when Reed plays a bit better one night? Or is defense simply that much? more important than knowing how many shots or reps are going to get each night. For example, Kat having dumb fouls versus getting consistent shots each game, what do you think? So I don't think that specifically has anything to do with it. I think it's just about team construct. So,

Carl Anthony Towns and Anthony Edwards, what types of offensive players are they? They are shooters and drivers. That's what they do best, right? Neither of them are elite playmakers. They're capable and just average seven assists in a playoff run. I'm not trying to act like they can't make plays, but they are not Luca Donchich, Chris Paul, Nicole Yokic, LeBron James level playmakers. That's not their game. Those guys, the entirety of their game is predicated on downhill rim pressure and pull up shooting over the top, right? That's what they're built on. And so you need to build the, you need to build the roster around their skill set. Let's not forget, this team was 17th in offensive rating all season.

This team had a 104 offensive rating in Crunch Time. They were a god-awful crunch time offense. This was a consistent issue all year that two favorable matchups against Denver and Phoenix made it look like their offense was better than it actually was. Then they ran into a team with rim protection and got strangled. So the reality is, is this team has a flawed offensive construct.

And they will eventually run into teams. We talked last night about the standing, and looking at the different teams with rim protection, and I mentioned OKC, and I mentioned the Lakers, and I mentioned Dallas. Another big team I missed in there is Memphis. Memphis could rejoin the picture next year. They will rejoin the picture next year.

And it's going to be a lot of Jared Jackson and Brandon Clark on that front line. And they have guys that can guard on the perimeter. Like, it's going to be similar challenges if you run into a Memphis. So, like, half of the playoff field next year is going to be elite rim protectors again. And so this is going to be a problem that they have to deal with in the future. And so to me, they have to build a construct in this roster that is less reliant on Kat and Anthony Edwards' ability to pick apart the defense because it's not just the Rudy piece. Like, Rudy obviously is a problem because he can't catch and finish consistently.

But Dallas was throwing a lot of late help at Ant and Cat, meaning like, it would drive and then the low man would just bail out of the corner and come over wall up on Ant like as he's getting into the lane. So he's not just challenging Gafford or just challenging lively. challenging multiple bodies in there. And Ant is not the kind of player like Luca or like those other playmakers I mentioned who's just going to pick you apart by making those last second reads really effectively. So you have to make things easier on your stars. If you're going to be built around Kat and Anthony Edwards, you have to generate natural spacing so they can have really simple shoot, drive, pass reads. You have to make it very simple for them. That to me is the direction that

they have to go in terms of their roster construction. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast,

The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and. at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics

from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tantons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it.

Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. As a Wolves fan, I find your argument about Edwards and Gobert's fit, very cogent. Something Ant can never seem to figure out is lobs to Rudy. He has shown flashes, but can never put it together when he needs it.

I do wonder what five would work best for him. Maybe a Gobert for Miles Turner trade. Great analysis as always. Thanks again for the kind of words. That's an example. Like, I, Gobert and Miles Turner, that trade probably won't ever happen, especially with the dollar amounts. Gobert makes a ton of money, and that's going to make the trade difficult.

As I said last night, I actually think O'Bair probably ends up staying in Minnesota just by virtue of the realities of the contract. And he's got a player option that he's almost certainly going to accept. So Gobert basically has two years left on his current deal. And it's very possible that he's in Minnesota for both of those. But that is the type of swap that would make some sense for me in the sense that Miles Turner is a pick and pop big. That would make for easy. Because like again, drop coverage like Dallas is running with Gafford and Lively. The perfect counter for that is a pick and pop because that puts that big in a really tough position.

where if he drops and Ant just throws simple kickback passes, it's wide open threes all night for Miles Turner. If he doesn't drop and he stays home with the roll man, then with the popping big, then Ant can turn the corner and get in the lane and there's no rim protection in there. So like a shooting center is ideal, but I think their best bet there is to try to flip Rudy

to a team that is actually willing to aggregate the salaries if they can and target something more along the lines of a power forward, and I have Kat be that shooting big. I really do think that Cat, if you simplify his role as well, because again, he's driving and dealing with the Gobert problem just as much as Aunt is. And so for me, like, if you could get a Portland to trade you a Jeremy Grant for a Rudy Gobert or something along those lines, or a three-team deal that sends Aiton or Gobert to a different destination, if you could do something like that, that to me is where I view the ultimate version of this team is Ant and Cat playing in a space floor, surrounded by shooting guys that can defend, guys like Jaden McDaniels, guys like Jeremy Grant, if it ends up being Mike Conley or a different player in the future. That to me is the direction

I would eventually go. As far as Gobert, though, yeah, like I think he has to play on a team that has an elite playmaker. I think that's the only type of team that he would be able to actually win at the highest levels with. With Dallas advancing to the finals, there's a debate going around on who are the best back court, who is the best back court in NBA history. Growing watching Golden State when I was in high school, I don't think there's a better back. back court than Stefan Clay. I want to know what rank do you have for them if there is one better back court than them, who would it be? Thank you for your analysis. It's been a huge fan of you so far this year and a half that I've been following you on YouTube. Thanks again for the kind words and for the

support. This question is frustrating to me because I really don't look at it as like back court. To me, it's like perimeter players, interior players. It's really that simple. Like for instance, Luca functions kind of like a point guard offensively, but on defense, he's not guarding guards. Like, Derek Jones Jr. is and Kyrie Irving is. And, you know, so like to me, like focusing on who the back court is, it's like Steph Curry. Like Steph Curry for the most part is being hidden defensively as much possibly as he can because he's got such a big offensive role, right? So like to me, it's more like duos. And when you're ranking duos, ranking Luca and Kyrie is a much more complicated topic because you're looking against, you know, hundreds of duos over the course of the last few

decades, right? So like that's something that's more of something that we'd get into in the off season. But to me, I don't really find the conversation around best backcourt even, even, uh, uh, relevant here because I don't look at Luca as a traditional back court player. To me, Luca represents where the game has changed, which is, and your best player has the ball in his hands, you know? Like LeBron James plays power forward for the Lakers, and he ran the point a lot in this postseason run for the Lakers, right? But like, but he's not guarding point guards, right? So like to me, I don't, I don't look at them as a backcourt. I just look at them as a star duo the way I'd look at Paul George and Kauai Leonard, for instance. Hi, Jason, I agree with your

Go-Beer assessment, but Kat has more trade value. So I think he'll be the one that gets moved, and Nas shifts to a starting power forward role. If that happens, where do you think is the best landing spot for Kat? Detroit has the cap space to absorb him as the starting center. They immediately get a go-to score and a floor spacer to help Caden Ivy. Asar can mimic the McDaniels role as well as anyone. New Orleans is another option. The Pells get their center, and could space the floor for Zion to attack the rim. And Ingram McDaniels-Gaerbren, front court has plenty of length. Any other spots that come to mind?

All of those make sense to me. Another couple that I looked at, Milwaukee, like Carl Anthony Towns next to Janus, would be a really interesting type of build. Miami, I think a huge lineup with Bamette Abio and Carl Anthony Towns could be interesting. Oklahoma City was another one I thought of. Like, imagine Shet Holmgren as more the rim protector, basically just putting cat next to a shooting version of Gobert. and that's the type of situation you can have there.

But like, again, I wouldn't trade Carl Anthony Towns simply because I think Gobert is a much bigger issue. And anytime you start flipping a player like Kat, it's really hard to replace his value, especially considering, like, in a lot of postseason situations, this year he was one of their more reliable scores. And I say that as he was still inconsistent, but in terms of guys next to Ant,

he was probably the most consistent score, certainly was the most consistent score of that group. Three more questions. Dallas is playing out of their minds. Can't miss a shot. Fun to watch. Looks like the Serbian-Slavian Balkan brothers of Yolkid Luka will dominate two years in a row. But overall, as a very long-term NBA fan, this year's playoffs have been disappointing. I thought this was going to be one of the most competitive playoffs ever, and it's been one blowout after another. Even the Nuggets Wolf series that went seven didn't have a single game that was really competitive or interesting. One of the most boring playoff stretches I've ever seen, hoping the Dallas-Boston series will actually be interesting and worth watching.

So I'm actually more optimistic about it. I think there's an important piece of context that kind of throws all of this in a mix. Every year in the playoffs, there are competitive matchups and there are bad matchups, right? For instance, like even this Western Conference final series, that was five games. I thought it was a highly entertaining five games because every game was super competitive, right? Whereas like Minnesota Denver goes seven, but every game's a blowout, right? That's normal in the playoffs. There are a series where teams where the games are blowouts.

where every game is close. Like that is typical. The problem is we didn't get as much of the competitive series because of what happened in the Eastern Conference. And there's two things that happened in the Eastern Conference. I thought there were five good teams in the East this year. I thought it was Boston, Milwaukee, Indiana, New York, and Philly. Those to me were the good teams. Orlando, Cleveland, Miami without Jimmy Butler after the injury, just not legitimate competitive basketball teams, right? First of all, all, three of those teams ended up in Boston's side of the bracket. Problem number one. Now Boston doesn't even have to play a real team for four weeks, right? Second side of it, everyone got hurt.

And B's playing on a bad knee. The Knicks literally had like 17 different injuries. Tyrese Halliburton falls apart at the end of the Pacer series in the conference finals. What's the one I'm missing? Oh, Milwaukee. Yannis misses the entire series and Dame misses part of it. Right? So like all, like, if that had balanced better, like if two of the good teams were on the same side with Boston and the other two were on the other side and Boston had to play a real team

in the second round and everyone was healthy, I think we would have had more competitive basketball games to kind of balance everything out. But because the East was basically a shit show, the only real good series there was like New York Philly, right?

The Indiana, New York series wasn't very entertaining because they were all blowouts after the first three games. but like that the East being a shit show kind of made it so that we didn't have as much competitive basketball but I still thought there were a lot of really entertaining games that Lakers Nugget series for a five game series every game was super entertaining and we had two buzzer beating game winners right I thought that Dallas first the Clippers was pretty entertaining I thought Dallas

versus Oklahoma City was a highly entertaining series Dallas versus Minnesota because a lot of that has to do with Dallas, we talk so much about Dallas and Luca and Kyrie, their defense is one of the primary drivers of their success. That's a big part of how all those games are close, right? I thought there were plenty of entertaining basketball games, and also, I think Dallas versus Boston is going to be an awesome NBA final. I'm very excited for it. Hi, Jason, big fan of the show. I know it's a bit irrelevant, but I'm just curious. If Denver had beaten the Minnesota Timberwolves in Game 7 and advanced to the Western Conference finals, who do you think would have won between Denver and Dallas? I would have picked Denver

over Dallas. There are a couple of key specific matchups there that would have picked, that would have skewed towards Denver. First, Dallas's defensive personnel is very much set up to handle a guy like Ant. It's not very set up to handle a guy like Nicola Yokic. Both Gafford and Lively struggle to handle him on an island. They would have been in

double teams the entire series. It would have been a problem. And then on the other end of the floor, the problem that Minnesota had is they never had a big, strong enough perimeter defender to handle Luca. And that's literally what Aaron Gordon's specialty is. I've seen him do it against LeBron. I've seen him do it against Jimmy Butler.

I've seen him do it against Kevin Durant. Aaron Gordon's one of the best big forward defenders in the league. That would have been a much better matchup for Denver in that series. And so, again, it would have been close. I would have probably picked Denver in six or seven games, but I would have picked Denver. And as you mentioned, it's irrelevant because Denver couldn't beat Minnesota. And that's just how these...

Dallas fans are all super sensitive about this. Similar to what I talked about earlier, where it's like the sensitivity surrounding like just needing to trash Anthony Edwards. The other piece of it is like Dallas fans are super sensitive about you saying that they got a good matchup. And it's like no one ever won a title without getting some good matchups along the way. Like there is no such thing in this field as the ultimate dominant team. I love this Dallas Mavericks team. They're a bona fide championship contender.

I had them third in my contender rankings coming into this postseason run. Makes sense that if Denver lost, they'd be the team that would get in, right? 100% on the Dallas bandwagon, they were a five seat. This is not the 73 win warriors. This is not the KD. Steff Warriors. They're not just going to obliterate everyone who comes in front of them. Boston is a minus 220 favorite in the finals, according to Draft Kings right now. So, like, again, everybody has to benefit from matchups unless you're one of the all-time great teams in NBA history.

And as good as the Stalas team is, they are not one of the all-time great teams in NBA history. And so again, like, it doesn't matter. Dallas is a deserving NBA finalist. But, like, yeah, I personally would have picked Denver if they made it to the Western Conference Finals. It would have been close, but I would have picked Denver. I don't understand the Gobert Hate. My numbers could be a bit fuzzy, but in this playoff run, the Timberwolves allowed 110 points

per 100 possessions with him on the court and 133 with him off. Why is this fringe player that is going to come in and essentially make a plus 20 swing? The issue is Ant not being good enough with a mediocre offensive talent. on the roster to overcome good defense. If you actually think that Anthony Edwards is a bigger problem for this Timberwell team than Gobert, I don't know what to tell you. The reality is, is that you got your ass kicked in the conference finals. So forget about the plus minus numbers.

When Rudy was on the floor, you couldn't beat Dallas. That's the issue. It doesn't matter if you were worse when he was off the floor. The problem isn't whether or not Gobert is the best player to play on this roster. That's not the issue. Of course that that's the best option for this roster. With this group of players, you needed to play Gobert to give yourself the best chance. What I'm saying is, this is not a championship roster.

I said this last night. To me, this Minnesota Timberwolves team is closer to the Lakers from last year than they are to a real championship contender. In the sense that the Lakers got a couple of favorable matchups in the first two rounds, right? They faced a downhill threat and John Morant in the first round so they could protect the rim, cause a bunch of problems, and then they face a Golden State Warriors team that has consistently struggled with Anthony Davis

over the last few years. They got two favorable matchups. They beat the defending champs, and then they ran into a real championship contender and got their ass kicked. That's what happened to Minnesota. They got a really favorable matchup in the first round. They played Phoenix, a pull-up jump shooting team

that likes to attack from the perimeter on an island, and they have all the perimeter defenders to match up with those guys. They locked them up, they kicked their ass, right? Then they ran into the defending champs. It was a bad matchup because they have all this perimeter size. They have to throw at Jamal Murray. They have all this interior size to throw it Nicole Yokic. They beat the defending champs.

Now, that Denver team is way better than last year's Golden State team. I want to be clear. So I do think that they're better. I think this Minnesota team was better than last year's Lakers. I'm just saying they're closer to that than they are to a real champion. Then they ran into a real championship contender, this Dallas Mavericks team that actually could attack some of Minnesota's weaknesses and Minnesota got their ass kicked.

So like again, like defend Gobert all you want. You're not a championship team. So like you weren't close. You weren't actually close this year. By the way, I said the same thing about the Lakers last year. I didn't come out of that run going, okay, next year, it's Denver, Boston, and L.A. No, that's not what I said. I said that there's Denver and Boston and then there's a gap.

I think I put Milwaukee in there, but I was like Denver, Milwaukee, Boston. And then there was a gap before we got to the rest of the teams. And I said the Lakers have to make a trade. to get better. And I feel exactly the same way about this Minnesota Timberwolves team. They are going to run into Memphis, the Lakers, Oklahoma City, or Dallas next year in the playoffs and lose again if they have Rudy Gobert on the floor. Because the issue is their offensive players are slasters and pull-up shooters, not high-level playmakers, and they can't handle the fact that teams can really pack the paint

when Rudy Go-Ber is on the floor. And Rudy's not the kind of guy that can easily catch and finish everything to kind of make up for that that type of flaw. So again, I think that focusing on off numbers from this series is missing the plot. You got your ass kicked. You're not a championship team. So that is the major issue. All right, guys, that is all I have for today's mailbag. I'm going to be back to, again, I'm going to record it right now.

But uploading tomorrow morning, we'll have a mailbag focus on the NBA finals. And then on Sunday morning, we'll have a mailbag focus on the rest of the NBA. I will see you guys then. The volume. podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel

help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tauntons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media.

Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Cliverts Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clivert Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.