The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - MVP narratives for SGA, Luka, Wemby + how Celtics' Tatum/Brown rank as all-time duo | NBA Mailbag

Episode Date: April 12, 2026

Jason answers mailbag questions on topics including how Boston Celtics stars Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown rank as an all-time NBA duo, why OKC Thunder star Shai Gilgeous-Alexander deserves the MVP, why Los Angeles Lakers wing Luka Doncic doesn't, Victor Wembanyama and the San Antonio Spurs’ chances in the playoffs, the Detroit Pistons core, and more. All lines presented by Hard Rock Bet.  #VolumeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas.

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I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on, a Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman. Multi-million dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, a billion dollar fraud. But how long can this alliance last? Tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

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Happy Friday, everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great end to your week. Today is Mailbag Day. We will occasionally have mailbags throughout the playoffs as we find time. But we do shift very heavily towards game reaction because we just have games. single night and those games are so important and so interesting. So we'll see. I'm going to try to fit in a mailbag here. They will probably do them during the morning sometimes. But this could be our last mailbag for a little while. So I'm really excited. You guys did a great job dropping questions in.

We got about 12 questions to get to today that bounce all around the league. You guys know the Joe before we started. Subscribe to the Hoopsenot YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. Make sure you like this video and then sign up for post notifications. And the last but at least, if you want to get mailbag questions into our mailbags moving forward, drop them into our full episodes on YouTube and we'll get to them throughout the rest of the season. All right, let's talk some basketball. First question. My question is about Tatum and Brown as a duo.

Obviously, I think we can all agree that they're the best current duo, but where do you see them as an all-time duo going forward? We're looking at two of the best two-way players in the entire league on the same roster. With Brown's growth, they now have two players that, when healthy, that are both looking like top 10 players in the league, and they still have long futures with each other. where do you think these two could make it in terms of a duo all time? Great question. Jackson and I were actually talking during the win against the Hornets the other night

about how Jalen Brown's improvement has just been super fun to watch and specifically like what those two kind of give you as a floor, refer a basketball team. And to put it very simply, like, I don't care what else is around them. As long as Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown are playing together, the Celtics are always going to have a shot to one. win the title. It's a combination. When you talk about duos, you, you're looking for two specific kind of like dynamics in order to drive a kind of like a, um, a greater than the sum of your parts

versus a lesser than the sum of your parts type of dynamic, right? And I think throughout the years, we've seen various different versions of that were like, for instance, take like Kevin Durant and Devin Booker, it felt like they were lesser than the sum of their parts because there's a lot to overlap in their skill sets. And neither of them was like a player that could really, really impact the game defensively. And so we kind of saw some diminishing returns there. Then there's like kind of in the middle. Like I think LeBron and AD kind of fit this mold where like, I thought they really

accentuated each other defensively. And there was a level of like, okay, when these two are, especially in 2020, 2021, when those two would really engage themselves defensively, they were able to reach a level that was really difficult for teams to, uh, to handle. But the flip side is LeBron was very much like a offensive orchestrator type of player. And LeBron and AD were such similar sizes that any sort of action, the two of them ran just kind of led to a switch, which turned Anthony Davis into a guy that had to play out of the post a lot. And Anthony Davis was just a kind of a mediocre break the defense down type of postup player, which continued to put tons of pressure on LeBron as like an offensive initiator out of ISO, which as he reached his late 30s

was more difficult to do. That's why it worked so well when they were 2020, 2012, LeBron's still MVP level. LeBron's still best player in the world. They were able to win a title and looked amazing,

but then as soon as Solomon Hill dove into LeBron's ankle, and he broke down a little bit, suddenly, offensively, those two just couldn't reach the level that they needed to reach, right? Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum have a specific dynamic that complements each other really well on both ends of the floor. So first of all, on the defense event, that Jalen Brown is very much a traditional three and Jason

Tatum is very much a traditional four. So if Jalen Brown is a three and Tatum is a four, they're constantly able to accentuate each other defensively, most famously in the 2024 NBA finals, where you're able to deploy Jalen Brown on a guy like Luca Donchich and deploy Jason Tatum on a guy like Derek lively or Daniel Gafford, switch ball, screens. Both guys are physically strong enough to guard the five. Both guys are quick enough laterally to guard on the perimeter. It made them this devastating defensive duo. But then on the offensive end of the floor, because both of them were in their prime athletically, even though actions between the two of them led to switches, they were both dynamic matchup attackers.

I also thought, and I think this has really started to come to the surface this year as Jalen Brown has improved as a processor in the half court, Tatum and Brown presents some real complimentary traits offensively. Tatum's more of a ball mover. Tatum is a guy that runs action and makes really simple reads relentlessly and a guy that's become a very, very gifted passer in this league. Whereas Jaylen Brown, even though he has shown growth as a passer and I don't want to kind of minimize that, Jalen Brown is this dynamic first step quickness mixed with power type of ISO player that can do some of the one-on-one stuff that Jason Tatum has struggled with over the years. And so the two of them in a lot of ways present like even though they play vaguely similar roles on offense, the two of them

attack in very different ways that has allowed them to complement each other and bring different dynamics to the offense. And so as a result, the two of them present like a very, very high floor on both ends of the floor. On defense, you've got like we talked about, all the versatility in terms of the ability to match up that they present. And on offense, just as if those two guys are on the floor, you got a lot of ways that you can attack an opposing defense. And So as a result, those two have had sustained success up to this point, and I think they'll have sustained success moving forward. In a lot of ways, like the Jason Tatum injury kind of cleared the way for Jalen Brown

to take on that more aggressive role. We actually saw that at phases like in the 2024 finals, even before Jason Tatum's injury. But Jason Tatum, because of his willingness more to be a passer, and because he can struggle with first step quickness and he can settle for more pull-up jump shots off the dribble, which he's good, not great at, it kind of functions better when Jalen Brown is being the primary aggressor in the offense. That's not a conversation about which player is better because Jason Tatum is a more well-rounded

basketball player all around. He's a better defensive rebounder. He is a better passer. He's a better like quick decision maker in the half court. He's a better spot up three-point shooters. Like Jailon Brown, it's more of just that tip of the spear strength that he presents. But Jason Tatum is more the spear. And when you have a duo where one guy, can be the spear and one guy can be the tip of the spear. That's that level of like cohesiveness you want from a duo to reach your ceiling. Now, as far as rankings go, I would agree with you. I think it gets a little bit more complicated if like, let's say that, uh, let's say that, uh, Luca Donchich is completely healthy. And I've got like a guy that is literally in the conversation for the best

player in the world. And I'm looking at a guy like LeBron as his number two. Or if I, I'm looking at, you know, Nicola Yokic and Jamal Murray, you know, that's where it can get a little bit more dicey in terms of debating where they rank. But I do agree with you. I think Jalen Brown has reached a level

this season where he's like right on the fringe of that top tier superstars. Like he's probably like the sixth or seventh best player in the NBA right now somewhere in that range. Jason Tatum has looked fantastic since he's come back. He's in that eight to 10 range. So like regardless of where you have them, they're both in that like six. to 10 range, which to your point gives them the only collection of two top 10 players playing

on the same team in the entire league. So I would agree that they're the best duo in the NBA right now. Now, as it pertains to the big picture like historical stuff, it's all going to be about how they rack up accolades over the course of the next few years. I think Boston is very much going to be competing for championships over the next three, four years. They get one or two more. That's where it starts to get more interesting compared to like Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, LeBron James and Dwayne Wade, you know,

Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal, that's where it gets more interesting. You've got to start racking up titles. And they certainly are capable, but the league is very deep. So it's going to be difficult. But I thought it was an interesting question, and I wanted to dive into why those guys

compliment each other so well. Hey, Jason, love the show. I've recently budgeted time to really dive back into basketball around my work schedule. I notice you referenced cleaning the glass all the time. Would you recommend it as something basketball heads like me invest in? Any other data sites? Thanks for the great content.

So cleaning the glass to me is a tool that any like diehard basketball fans should get because it's relatively inexpensive compared to some of the other tools out there. And they have a couple of specific things that I really, really like using. First of all, all their data filters out garbage time. So it's just a little bit more accurate in terms of the net rating type of data that you see, the rebounding percentage type of data that you see, the lineup data that you tend to see. It's all more accurate because it just takes out garbage time. and only factors in when games are relatively competitive.

I love the lineup tool. You have the ability with each team to just put players on the floor or off the floor, which very easily allows you to access information about which pairings, which trios, which groups of four or five guys fit really well or fit negatively in any sort of dynamic for a team. Like little things. Like if you want to just see, oh, how does this team look when Wemby's off the floor? You literally just put Wemby in the off the floor. floor segment and it can filter through lineup data. So it's a really simple lineup tool that once

again also removes garbage time. They've got tools for half court offense so you can like filter offense down to just the half court rather than transition. I love their catch all transition metric. It's called points added per 100 possessions in transition. That is a metric that I use a lot for just evaluating how good a team is in transition offense versus transition defense. I can filter net ratings by teams that when they play against teams that are in the top 10 in point differential, the middle 10 in point differential, the bottom 10 in point differential, just against top 10 defenses, just against top 10 offenses. It's just really good for looking up data for how a team performs based on differing circumstances. And again, it's relatively

inexpensive compared to many of the other tools out there. That is a major one that I use. Again, there are a lot of different tools out there and you can really start to accumulate them all. I am very fortunate to have access to tools like Synergy that are very expensive. But the reality is that cleaning the glass for the money is just a simple, easy one that gives you a lot of really helpful information without having to get too far into the weeds or without having to spend too much money. Next question. My friends were talking, my friends were smack talking Shea and muddying the waters around his MVP case. I expressed that he is having a Jordanesque scoring season in terms of efficiency and entry and every level scoring. and that it would be highway robbery should he not win it.

If he loses this MVP race, will this be viewed as a historic snub in a decade or two? Additionally, do you think this race will be viewed in a similar light as the 62 race or similarly stacked MVP race seasons? Love the show. So here's the thing. I am 100% with you that it would be highway robbery if she didn't win the MVP. Obviously, Luke's injury has kind of dropped him down.

Wembe not getting the one seed has kind of disqualified him to this point. One guy I've seen that's gotten a lot of buzz late in the season is Nicole Yokic, which I just completely disagree with. I do think, Luca, I do think Nicole Yokic is the best player in the world at this point. I think he's kind of demonstrated that with his play here over the, uh, the tail end of the season. However, being the best player in the world and winning MVP are two very different things. We talked about this when we debated the 2016 Steph versus LeBron kind of conversation. To me, having the best regular season is a separate conversation from like, okay, we're starting the playoffs tomorrow. You get to choose any player in the league to lead your team,

regardless of surrounding circumstances. Who do you pick? And to me, I still lean slightly towards Yokic over Shea at this point. But to me, Shea just, I always divide MVP into a three-step category, or three category kind of like criteria. Who's the best player? Who's the best player on the best team? Who's the most valuable player? Shea is no lower than the second best player in the league. And you can make a case for him at number one that I think is a legitimate case, although I think he's number two, but still, he's so high on that list and so competitive with Yokic that that's a strength in his case. Best player on the best team, the Thunder are the best team in the league. So that's pretty straightforward. And I do think that when you factor in some of the

injuries that Oklahoma City has dealt with this year, that Shea plays a lot larger role into that than he gets credit for. And then lastly, value, the Thunder offense falls off of a cliff when Shea is off the floor. And they've won a lot of clutch games this year that have basically come down to his ability to knock down clutch shots, which he's done at a higher level than anybody in the league by a wide margin this season. So he is one of the top two players in the league. He is the best player on the best team.

And the only player in the league that's been more valuable on like a points per possession type of situation, like clearly more valuable is Victor Weniama, but he clearly has demonstrated huge value to the thunder. So to me, Shea has an extremely clear MVP case. Again, it probably won't be unanimous because it just never is. Like, even LeBron in 2013, as dominant as he was,

some dude voted, some Celtics writer voted for Carmelo Anthony. Like, it's extremely rare to have a year like 2016 where everybody just agrees that one guy had the best regular season. So he may not be unanimous. And there is some buzz for Yokic specifically stemming from his advanced metrics, like the catch-alls. And just something I've learned about this business since I got into it, there is a large chunk of the NBA voter pool that,

rather than watching games evaluates their voting primarily on or makes their voting decisions primarily on the use of catch-all metrics. I vehemently disagree with that. I just don't get me started, but that is something that a lot of voters do. So don't be surprised if Yokic gets, you know, a dozen or so number one votes, first place votes stemming from his catch-all metrics. But I think Shea's case is so resoundingly strong across the board that I think, think he's going to end up being a runaway MVP this year, and I think he will deserve it. As for questions like the 62 race, I'm going to guess from your question that you're a fan of Carson Breber and NerdSesh because he's a big Shea fan who's been pleading his case

all year. And he's a guy that will dive into things like a 54-year-old MVP case or whatever, or 64-year-old MVP case. But I don't really dive that far back into NBA history. I'm very much kind of like an in the moment type of NBA fan. I do love NBA history, but like I tend to not go too much further past like 1980 for me as a basketball fan. So like I'm not the guy to answer that particular question. I'm sure if you asked Carson, he would have one for you. By the way, I saw a tweet today of some dude, Kirk Carson did one of his like trivia things. And some guy was like calling him out for faking it and he's just so wrong. Guys, Carson is a literal genius and spend like five minutes talking to him and you'll pick up on it pretty quick.

all the shit you're seeing with him is completely real. That dude is, he's just, he's one of my favorite people. He's just, I think he's a future star in this business. I think he's just absolutely incredible. And he's definitely not faking that stuff. Today's show is brought to you by presenting sponsor Hard Rock Bet, the official sportsbook partner of the Miami Heat and the Orlando Magic. The Hardwood is heating up as the NBA playoff push rolls on.

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We have some big news. What's the news, new? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a... We're the first people to do podcasts.

Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers was...

This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, Jonas, and offered it up as a potential time. title for the podcast.

But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind.

Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Hey, Jason, thank you for the great content and an excellent job with the Derek White interview. My question is about Kauai Leonard. With the Clippers unlikely to go on a deep run despite Kauai having a career year, a question how many great seasons like this we will have from Kauai? How do you view his legacy and his place all time?

Thank you as always. Thank you for the kind of words and for supporting the show. I had a lot of people that reached out about the Derek White interview. I thought it went really well as well. we're obviously still learning is kind of a new thing for us. And there are things that I want to do better next time that we have an interview like that. But at the same time, like for what it is, something relatively new, I thought it went really well. And I thought Derek, I want to give all the credit to Derek. I just thought he really cared and gave a great effort and was interesting and engaged. And I just thought he was awesome. And I thought the interview was a ton of fun. But I do appreciate all you guys who reached out and said kind words about the interview. Um, Kauai in his health, like, it's interesting. Like, you've kind of see this with various players over the years that have significant injury issues pop up. And Kauai was very healthy early in his career and then ran into issues in his late 20s. But we see versions of this with like maybe Darius Garland right now or like Steph Curry early in his career. Sometimes guys have like recurring injury issues and then they kind of figure stuff out for how to like sustain health. And it does feel like Kauai has progressively gotten. a little more healthy as the years have gone by compared to where he was in like

2021 and 2022. And so I do think it's very possible that Kauai can kind of put together a three or four year run here where he stays relatively healthy. Now, whether or not he can be that level of superstar that he needs to be to like take a team to the promised land, I don't know that he'll be able to sustain that very long. And I was concerned by him not being able to really come close to Yokic's level in the first round last year. So I kind of think he's in that second tier star range. But here's the thing. If he can stay healthy as a second tier star, then you can justify paying him a shit ton of money and investing in him in a three or four year window. And so if Kauai continues to stay healthy, I wouldn't be surprised if some team takes a shot on him. I wouldn't

be surprised if a team like Golden State goes, hey, why don't we go get Kauai Leonard and see if we can't make a run with Steph Curry. And I think if Kauai demonstrates the ability to, like, win a playing game, go into a first round series and look like Kauai for two weeks and survive athletically and go into a healthy summer, you know, that's two years in a row where he's been able to stay healthy. And maybe he is figuring out how to kind of sustain his ability to stay on the floor in this phase of his career. And so I do think that he's kind of making the conversation surrounding his availability more complicated with how.

he's been able to stay on the floor the last couple of seasons. Now, where does his legacy in place all time kind of land? He's one of the most interesting cases in the NBA in the sense that you could argue him extremely high based on his ceiling or extremely low based on his ability to kind of like put up like, you know, total numbers of points, total numbers of deep playoff runs, total numbers of like MVP's, like that kind of stuff. Like there's a lot of like counting stuff with Kauai. that he's just going to fall woefully short of some of his peers.

But anybody who's been a real basketball fan in this era has seen Kauai go toe to toe to toe with LeBron, has seen Kauai be at his best, every bit as good as the top players in the league during that, you know, 2019, 2020, you know, this, this last, you know, six or seven years. And so with that being the case, it's just really complicated in his all-time placement because all-time, you know, basketball rankings tend to heavily favor what you've accomplished on your resume. And Kauai's just going to fall short there. But he's a guy that obviously at his very best was one of the very best players in the league. I don't ever think he was the best player in the world. I think one of the things with Kauai that goes a little overrated is a lot of basketball fans overrate scoring. They just do. It's why a lot of people think KD's better than Steph. I just don't.

Like, to me, the ability to generate offense for a team is fundamentally different than the ability to generate. operate offense for yourself. And I think at various points over the years, we've seen Kauai really struggle when teams kind of throw the kitchen sink at him and force him to process. Denver last year is a great example. They just doubled Kauai a ton and he didn't handle it very well. But if you can put him in a situation like the 2019 Raptors where like it's like we can handle everything. Kyle Lowry's helping to process the offense. Pascal Siakum's providing all this extra punch. All you need to do is get buckets. It's all you need to do.

It's like the perfect spot for him. Same thing goes with Kevin Durant, right? Like we've seen routinely Kevin Durant when he has to take on a larger offensive role like in Oklahoma City, like in Brooklyn, like in Phoenix, like now in Houston, where he is the primary offensive engine. We've seen his teams routinely just struggle

to reach the highest levels of the NBA. But you plug him into a system that already has a MVP level shot creator that handles all of that for him. And they're already in elite defense. And you say, hey, Kevin Durant, just get buckets. Just hit a hesey pull up three over LeBron James on the left wing. Like, just do this one thing that you're great at. All of a sudden, you can leave series like that.

And people will be like, oh, is Kevin Durant the best player in the world? And it's just like, no, you hitting a hezzie pull up over LeBron James in a big spot is not the same as like driving the success. of a basketball team in every phase of the game the way the players that were better than him did. And so I think both Kauai and KD are a little overrated, specifically because of that over emphasis on scoring that we see most basketball fans focus on. But at the same time, that doesn't mean they're like not near that level. They are. They're both amazing basketball players and both have grown. Kauai has become better as a processor as the years have gone by. Kevin Durant, game four against Cleveland,

it's either game three or against, game three or game four against Cleveland in 2018, was one of the best games I've ever seen any player ever play in terms of like all around impact in every phase of the game. KD is certainly capable of that sort of stuff, even if I don't think he did it at a high enough level to keep up with guys like Steph or LeBron. But generally,

guys like Kauai and KD were at least able on any individual game to kind of match the level of the guy, that were above them all time. And that's what makes those debates complicated when you start to rank them. But you know, you guys, you guys have heard me. I have LeBron as the best player of all time and Steph as the fifth best perimeter player of all time. I don't have Kauai or KD close to that when I, when I'm building my all time list. Maybe we'll dig a little bit further into that this summer. Hey, Jason, love the show. As a magic fan, I hate watching the team on offense and it seems like Mosley is going to get fired at the end of the year. Who do you think would be a good

replacement? So this is a tough one for me because like, Generally speaking, you don't have a lot of, like, awesome coaches that are just available that are like big name guys that we're all aware of. And one of my biggest weaknesses at this point in my career is I'm not super well connected. It's not, it's something that I'm working on. It's something that I really want to improve on. But like, I want to be more connected with coaching staffs, more connected with front offices. So I can have a better idea of their process. So for example, like, um, offensive organization, the idea of like pursuing certain types of shots, spacing concepts.

building an offense in terms of the types of actions that you run that accentuate your best players and their strengths rather than, you know, playing into the strengths of the, of the defense or playing into the weaknesses of what your players do. That sort of thing, a lot of times is coming from an assistant. A lot of times, like, you'll see, you know, like, we'll see an awesome baseline out of bounds play and we'll be like, oh, man, like, what a, what a play call from JJ Redick. And it's like, oh, actually, it was one of his assistants that drew that. up. And so it's one of those things where what Orlando needs to do

is open up an extensive interview process where they interview many of the top assistants around the league and specifically canvass them for their offensive beliefs and ask them to sit down and be like pitch me on how you plan on making this work with Palo, with Desmond Bayne,

with Franz Wagner, with Wendell Carter Jr., you know, with Anthony Black. Tell me how we're going to make this work. And, you know, the person sits down and eloquently breaks down exactly what he views as the strengths and weaknesses in the offense. Like, okay, we have a strength in the form of these two big forwards that are very good at attacking matchups that can really pressure the rim, but they both struggle with jump shooting. But we also have a guard in Desmond Bain that is an extremely high level movement shooter.

And we have another guard in Anthony Black that is really blossoming into a pretty well-rounded offensive player. So like how are we going to, you know, get more action that involves multiple players like three man action, but that also involves Desmond Bain and Palo or Desmond Bain and Franz always involved so that teams have to make complicated decisions about whether or not they're going to switch, whether or not they're going to hedge and recover. That puts the defense into a bind more frequently. Why? So that we can get Palo downhill more often so that we can get Desmond Bain open popping out of screens more often so that we can have fewer possessions where Palo and Franz are dribbling against a big strong defender in settling for some tough mid-range

pull-up and more possessions where Franz is going downhill and making passing reads. More possessions where Palo is going downhill and making passing reads. Those are the kinds of things that I want to hear from an assistant that is interviewing for that position. But again, because of my current kind of weakness and how poorly connected I am to the way these MBA franchises are working, both at the coaching level and the front office level, I don't have like a list of a dozen great assistance that I would be looking at for this position, whereas if I was more connected and I had a better understanding of like, who is the offensive architect of this team? Who is the offensive architect of that team? Like, that's the kind of stuff that I'd be looking for.

Like a team that I, uh, whose offense I really enjoy is Charlotte. If there is an assistant in Charlotte that's working under Charles Lee that is helping to provide a lot of the schematic approach that they're using. And that would be a like, they do run a lot of like inverted action for Musa Diabate where they use their shooters as screeners. They do have a lot of action that they run that gets their movement shooters coming into situations where they have advantage. Like that that would be, if there's a guy that's an offensive architect underneath Charles. Charles Lee, that's a guy I'd be trying to interview for that position. But essentially, you want a guy that can put this team into much better position offensively. And it's probably going to be an assistant somewhere in the league.

I also think Orlando's relatively young enough that you don't need to have some sort of old guy who's, you know, super respected that comes in and runs the show. If you do go that route, if you do end up, like, picking some sort of like retread coach that's coming around the league, then you need to make sure his top level assistant is a guy that can really help organize the team on the offensive end of the floor. Next question. Do you think the Spurs have a deer and Fox problem? I feel like they do. Harper has progressed a lot in his rookie season and has shown potential to have a higher ceiling than Fox. The Spurs identity to me is large, physical young guards, and Fox doesn't quite fit that description and he is older. This contract isn't causing

flexibility issues right now because most of the guys are on rookie contracts, but down the line when they need extensions, Fox's contract will make the roster harder to maintain their core pieces. So this is something we all knew before the D.R. and Fox trade was made. He wasn't the perfect option. He was just the best available option. Why did they have to take the best available option? Because Wembe changed their timeline. We talked about this all season last year. Wemby was so good, so early that you no longer could just sit there and be like, hey, we're waiting for Steph Castle and Dylan Harper to be better. Like as flawed as Deeran Fox is compared to a Shea, compared to a Jamal Murray, if they end up in a slowdown playoff series, he's still their safest bet

compared to giving the ball to a rookie or giving the ball to a second year player. Deer and Fox gives you the best available on ball guard at the time to pair with Wembe and give you the best chance to compete and contend right now. You're right that this is going to be a Harper Castle team moving forward. I wouldn't be surprised if San Antonio turns around and trades Deeran Fox at some point down the line. And here's the thing. If you end up trading

Deeran Fox, let's say after this season or after next season and you don't get a single pickback. Like you you literally have to just dump his salary for filler or you do it and you get like one heavily protected first round pickback or something like that. Then

what you effectively did is you paid to have Fox come in and be a placeholder while your guards were young so that you gave Wemby his best chance to compete. And even if you lose this year to Denver in round two or you lose OKC in round three and you lose again next year to somebody in the second or third round and then you trade Fox, what you did is you gave Victor Wembe and Yama a lot of really high, high end playoff experience by pairing him with a veteran guard that gave you the best chance to compete in. the short term. San Antonio still has plenty of draft picks available. They still have plenty of depth

of talent coming up through their system and there will be more as they continue to make more picks. San Antonio is going to be fine in the long run, even if they have to dump Deer and Fox at some point. It was a move that was intended to capitalize on the advanced timeline that Victor Wem and Yama presented. Next question. Hey, Jason, great show. I still don't get why you didn't have Luke a higher than third in MVP when he had a bigger responsibility on his team than someone like Wembe and Shea. who play with way better rosters. Luca took this very flawed roster, despite his two slumps in December and February,

to the three seed in the Wild West. Again, great show. Congrats to you and your team. Thank you for the kind words, and thanks for acknowledging, yeah, we have an amazing team here at Hoops tonight. But I keep getting really confused by the revisionist history

with the Luca Donchich MVP case. For the record, I do appreciate you acknowledging the multiple slumps that came along the way. I've seen a lot of Luca, fans that refused to acknowledge even that. To me, having him third an MVP case was a credit to the fact that he had a bigger responsibility than some of the other candidates.

You're right about the flaws in the Lakers roster. We talked about that in yesterday's show extensively. I think it's possible for Luca to have a harder job and to still not have played as well overall as a basketball player as Victor Wemnon Yama and Shaigeldron Alexander did this season. Yes, Luca did help the team float a strong record through the first two-thirds of the season. But he and the team did that by routinely beating up on weak competition and just getting their ass beat every single time they faced a good team after that first stretch of the season. At one point, again, they had played 13 games against teams that had 60% win percentages are better, lost 12 of them. the one win was against the Nuggets

without Nicola Yokic, which basically doesn't count as a real 60% win percentage team. And in those games, for the most part, they got their ass beat. When we were looking at the Lakers at the All Star Break, we were all like, this is the team that sticks out like a sore thumb.

Yeah, they have a strong record. All you had to do, remember at the time, if you just opened up your ESPN app, and you opened up the standings, and you went to the whole league instead of the conference tab, and you sorted down by win percentage. And all the teams were there and the Lakers were routinely somewhere around like the fifth best record to like the seventh or eighth best record. They were always in that top 10 all season.

But then you just looked over to the side to the point differential. It was a bunch of big green numbers and then a red number for the Lakers. They had a negative point differential for a huge portion of the season. Yes, they had a good record, but everyone was in agreement that they were the sore thumb. They were nowhere near as good as they looked in the standings. Now, yes, Luca's not necessarily to blame for that, but at the same time, if you watched Luca through that first two-thirds of the season,

he was playing really well, but not as good as Shea. He was playing really well, but not as good as Yokic. He was playing really well, but not as good as Victor Wemnon-Yama. Then we got to the All-Star break, and at that point, Luca started playing arguably better than anybody in the league. I've said this on the show,

from the moment of the All-Star break to the moment that Luca pulled his hands, I thought he played the best basketball out of any of those stars in that small window in time. In that stretch, the Lakers did finally start beating good teams. And so as a result, you zoomed out at the big picture and you're like, wow, they've got the fifth best record in the league. They've beat these good teams. Luca Donchich is looking like an MVP. And so it was really easy to then look back and like have this sort of revisionist history type of conversation. But even with that run, they still had a much worse point differential than any of the teams that were above them in the standings or even some of the teams that were below them, even against the good teams. Like after the run in March, the Golden State Warriors were a better point differential team against the top 10 point differential teams than the Lakers were. So like even with that run they went on in March, the big picture just wasn't that impressive compared to the top team. So it was one of those things where Luke had a great MVP case.

I had him third. I had him over Yokic before the injury. I had him over Kate Cunningham and Jalen Brown before the injury. But Victor Wemanniamah and Shea, Shea Gilders-Alexander had just had better seasons and had better cases in my opinion. Everyone was hung up on Wemby's minutes. Doesn't change the fact that when he was on the floor, he was the most dominant player in the league, literally even more than Shea.

And Shea, like we mentioned earlier, had just this incredibly well-rounded case. One of the top two players in the league, best player on the best team, one of the top two value players in the league. Like it just was too clear of a case and it was too much for Luca to supersede. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, huge news? We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast.

Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a podcast. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call. And we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down?

Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. Help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Hawks. Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind.

Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls,

we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo SlicLife 12

in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Hey, Jason, completely agree with your take on the Lakers' not drafting slash scouting prospects. what do you think the Lakers can do to turn this around? With the new CBA, I'm looking at the top teams, they all have great role players and lower contracts who can scale up when needed. How do the Lakers go about improving the team in this way?

Does this make this year's draft pick even more important to keep considering the stacked draft class? So I have, what Luca did in March that I think is very important, is from the entire time that he came to the Lakers last year in February, all the way through to the All-Star break this year, he had failed to reach the level of like Shea and Nicole Yokic. He had been a level below that.

Accumulating massive stats, but the impact just wasn't there. What we saw in March is like, oh shit, when Lukas like this, the Lakers can beat anybody. Even that OKC game as bad as it was, a big part of it was Luca was bad. Luca played poorly. But if Luca is healthy and he plays well, the Lakers have a much better chance to compete in that game. that is how good Luca Donchich is when he's at his best. That seeing that version of Luca for the first time in a Lakers jersey fundamentally changed my calculus in the way I look at this team moving forward.

The real way, like you mentioned in your question, that this Lakers team has fallen short, is in their scouting. They're missing on undrafted prospects. They're missing on two-way guys. They're missing on cast-offs from other teams. They're missing on second-round picks. They're missing on first-round picks. Rob Polinka, to his credit, has done fine in some other areas.

I did think the Luke Kinnard trade was a nice little trade that was inexpensive that made the team better. I did think that the Marcus Smart signing was a very good signing relative to the money in terms of the level of impact that he brought to the table. I thought he overpaid Jake. DeAndreighton was like a high risk, high upside type of pick that I think is defensible. I don't think it's a win for Rob, but I also don't think it's a loss for Rob. So he had some wins there in terms of the free agent signings. We'll call, I'll just call Marcus a win and I'll call the Luke Connard to trade. our trade a win. I'll call the, uh, the Jake La Ravia signing kind of like a either way and an

eight and signing or eight and signing like an either way. But he had some wins there, but the front office is just getting their ass beat everywhere else. Like the fact that you went after a du Thierro, an athlete that very clearly was years away from being able to play was a poor decision for a win now type of team. You bombing on Dalton Connect. You bombing on Jalen Hood Chafino. You're not having a single second round pick pan out. Vince Max Christie back in 2022. The failure to sign a single impactful rotation player as an undrafted guy.

The failure to sign a single impactful two-way guy that can be a rotation player. The one cast off that you got was Jordan Goodwin and you literally punted him away this summer. Just let him go instead of using a second round pick to clear up some cap space for a guy that is like literally one of the top six or seven players on that Phoenix Suns team. And that very clearly looked like,

a useful rotation player last season. So that's where they're getting their ass beat. So the way I look at it, when you look at how good Luca is, I don't think the answer is packaging a bunch of draft picks and targeting like some super expensive upside option, like a Janus, or even like some of the really, really expensive options out there that we've talked about. Like going like, I don't think you should be sending three draft picks on draft night for Herb Jones. I think that would be a mistake. I don't think you should be sending three draft three first round draft picks on draft night for Trey Murphy. I think that would be a mistake. I think the move is when you are looking at teams like Boston and you're looking at teams like OKC, they are finding rotation players on rookie scale contracts

in the late first round. Like Hugo Gonzalez and Baylor Shireman have both been very useful rotation players for Boston as a 28th overall pick and a 30th overall pick. So you need to invest heavily in scouting. You need to have a much deeper roster of draft scouts that are doing a much better job of evaluating first round talent. Then you need to have another completely different set that's evaluating fringe draft talent. So guys that go undrafted, guys that go in the second round.

Then you need to have an entirely different set of scouts that you hire specifically to scout pro personnel that's just looking at guys that are not involved on other teams that are outside of the rotation that other teams might be willing to part with for one reason or another or might be planning on parting with that you think they're missing out on their talent and just grind like grind tape on the 11th and 12th and 13th man on every team around the league until you find an opportunity and you need to start getting wins there I agree with you I would not trade this year's first round pick. It would have been more complicated if Luca didn't flash this ceiling.

Luca flashed this ceiling. Now the way I see it, you need useful role players around them. Luca and Austin are your core. You need useful role players. You need to turn whatever that pick ends up being 22, 24, whatever it ends up being. You need to turn that pick into a guy who can play for you next season. That needs to be your entire approach as you're going into scouting, this draft. Who is that Tristan de Silva? Who is that Hugo Gonzalez, Baylor Shireman? Who's that guy who can

come in right away and play a role on my team? That needs to be the use of that pick. Why? Because if you hit on that and you sign him for four years, you have a rotation player that's making nothing compared to if you wanted to go get a guy who's making 18, 20 million a year. Then I would look at those other draft picks that you have available, and I would canvas the league for upgrades that are inexpensive. Somebody you can move a protected first round pick for a starter. That would be the type of move I'd be looking at. But this is a team that needs high level role player talent. Luca Donchich has shown that he can elevate a Marcus Smart, a DeAndre Aiton, a Jake Laravia. He can make them into players that can play a role on a really good team, the way that he showed in March. You don't

need to go swinging for home runs. You need to start hitting singles. If you can get a second round pick that is a rotation player, let's say you get in this year's, as you're turning over the roster this summer, you sign an undrafted guy, you sign a second round guy, and you got your first round guy. If two of those guys turn into dudes who can play, that is a huge win. Even at the center position, like, don't get me wrong, if you can get Nick Claxton for cheap, go get Nick Claxton. But if Nick Claxton costs a lot, if they want two first round picks,

hell no. They want to unprotected first. Hell no. Look at what the Charlotte Hornets have done with Musa Diabate. Look at what the Celtics have done with Nimmi Keda. Have a development win. Find somebody on the margins. That is all about hiring,

and this is where the Dodgerification of the Lakers can help, have somebody who can come in and do that last. legwork to find those players for you. That is where the Lakers have been getting their ass kicked in recent years. Do you think shortening the season will make it harder for guys to get all those all-time total achievements or make it more accessible with less wear and tear? Guys, I understand that there's a history element anytime you make a massive rule change.

But I'd argue that kind of already happens incrementally. You don't think the counting stats around the league are weird because of the inflation of pace at this phase in NBA history. You don't think NBA basketball looks very different now than it did in the 80s and that that has some sort of impact on historical evaluation of players. We talked about this with Kobe.

Every elite two guard now is like a 60 to 63% true shooting percentage guy. Kobe was way below that, but so was every other two guard in that era. I'm already seeing that used to marginalize Kobe and what he accomplished in his career. So the reality is, is things are going to change with the way that we evaluate guys historically statistically. You have to embrace the fact that it's more important to improve

the quality of the on-court product than it is to maintain the fallacy that there is some sort of like fairness historically as we're evaluating evaluating players statistically. Yeah, if you shorten the season, no one's going to touch LeBron's all-time scoring record. Who cares as long as the game looks better? Yeah, if we shorten the season, you're shortened it. in the season, no one's ever going to touch Steph's all-time three-point shooting record. Who cares if we improve the on-court product? That is the most important part of this. All right, two more questions, and we're out of here. How concerned are you about the Timberwolves for the upcoming playoffs? It's been up and down, but mostly a down year, and it feels like for

them. Do you think they can make it three straight Western Conference Finals appearances, or do you think they'll fall earlier? So this is tricky because the difference between this year's Timberwolves team and like last year's Timberwolves team is last year's Timberwolves team was generally unimpressive but they were healthy. This year, the thing with Anthony Edwards knee is strange. Obviously, you have this Patelor tendonosis with Jaden McDaniels, although he did make it an appearance the other night. It's just a little bit different because of their physical wear and tear. I personally still think we're probably going to see, especially because they get a week off next week, I think we're going to see the Timberwolves going to their first round series and look like a real

challenge for Denver. The tricky thing is them having a mediocre season has put them into a tough spot. Had they been able to hold on to the five seat, they would have got that shitty Lakers team in round one. And then they, you know, I actually think Minnesota matches up pretty well with Oklahoma City like we've talked about. And they might have had a better chance. But now it's like you've got to go on the road to Denver. Then you got to go through a San Antonio. Then you have to go through Oklahoma City. So them kind of, for lack of a better term, digging around all season has put them into a tough position and they're physically worn down. So I'm lower on Minnesota than I was a few weeks ago, but I'm never making the mistake of underestimating the Timberwolves again. I do think that they'll

come out a couple weeks in two weeks, a week from this weekend, and I think that they'll look like a legit challenge for that Denver team. Last question. Hi, Jason, it seems inevitable that Jalen Duren will get a $200 million extension this offseason. And I think a lot of us Pistons fans are still in shock over how big of a leap he's taken from last season till now. That being said, at that price, we're essentially saying Duren is now the undisputed number two behind Cade. He's clearly taken on more offensive responsibility without sacrificing efficiency. But my question is, what would you like to see from Duren to justify this price tag moving forward?

An obvious one is more self-creation. Per PbP stats, 64.5% of his shots come from assists, excluding putbacks. Being able to confidently throw the ball to him in the post or the free throw line would definitely take a load off of Cade, and if his mid-range J continues to improve, I think he could become the new-age version of Amari Stodomier. Thank you as always for your content.

So this is a good question. It comes back to the philosophical debate we were just having a minute ago regarding centers. When you see teams that rely on high-level shot creators, take lamella ball with Charlotte, for example, or Kay Cunningham in Detroit, for example, or even I'd say Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum in Boston, for example, it's easier to get more out of a center

because of your high-level shot creation and the fact that they function as play finishers. For the record, I think, you know, even though I want to give Paul Reed credit as a very good player. This is why Paul Reed's been very good. That very stretches this season for Detroit. I look at the success stories of Musa Diabate

and the success stories is Nemeus Keda. And I'd even throw in Jalen Williams, Jay Will with Oklahoma City, even though he's a very different type of player, when you can turn in systems where you have elite shot creators, when you can turn players from the margins into legitimate, like, awesome starting

caliber rotation players. That position, I think, is the easiest position group to actually do that in. So does that mean you, if you're Charlotte, you let Musa walk? No. Does that mean if you're Boston, you let Cato walk? No. I think you view them as stop gaps. I think you pay them and you view them as stop gaps until you find your next development success story. But you need to always be trying to turn out centers so that you don't have to waste a ton of money on centers. Now, Jalen Duren, let's say he gets this $200 plus million extension. To your point, the difference between either keeping him long term on that contract or looking to trade him will come down to that offensive development piece.

If Jalen Duren becomes like a legit second option, to your point, if he becomes a Mari Stademeyer, then yeah, you could justify that amount of money. But Kate is destined to become such a gifted perimeter shock creator that if for whatever reason you could develop internally another guy on a rookie contract that could be an awesome rotation piece at the center position, then you're better off divvying up that $50 plus million salary slot among high-level perimeter players because they're just harder to replace around the league. So again, you give them the money no matter what, though,

because you want to maintain the asset. Jayland-earn is so good that you'll be able to trade him if you have to. Same thing goes for Charlotte. You resign Musa Diabate. You resign Nemeheda. and then once you have the replacement in-house, if they're not justifying their salary at that point, then you can look to move them.

But I would always, as an NBA team, be looking, especially if I have a high-level pick-and-roll shot creator, I would constantly be looking to internally develop centers because I think they're the most replaceable position. Whether or not Jalen Dern will be worth the money will ultimately come down to that offensive development piece. All right, guys, it's all I have for today. As always, I sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us

and supporting the show. all of you guys have a wonderful weekend. We have a jam-packed week next week. We'll have our 10 big reactions from the weekend on Monday. We have Nick Wright coming on the show. We have Brian Winhorse coming on the show. We're going to have eight series previews before we get to Friday, all sorts of shit for us to get to over the course of next week. It's going to be a fun one. And then we're in the playoffs. And then it's our live shows every night after the final buzzer of those games. As always, I appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. I'll see you guys on Monday.

Hey guys. It's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but, you know, tired and sick.

Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite, unhumored me with Robert Myrtle and Friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to SportsSlic on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on, a Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman. Multi-million dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, a billion dollar fraud. But how long can this alliance last? Tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me?

Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the Aihar Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.