The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - NBA Draft Predictions: Bronny James to Lakers? Hawks decision at #1 w/ Sam Vecenie

Episode Date: June 26, 2024

Jason Timpf is joined by Sam Vecenie of The Athletic to break down the biggest questions ahead of the 2024 NBA Draft. Are the Atlanta Hawks more likely to draft Zaccharie Risacher or Alex Sarr with the first overall pick? Later, the guys share their thoughts on the other top prospects including Reed Sheppard, Donovan Clingan, and Dalton Knecht. And of course...will Bronny James team up with LeBron James and the Los Angeles Lakers? 5:30 - Why Sam has NO Tier 1 or Tier 2 players 10:00 - Zaccharie Risacher vs. Alex Sarr for #1 25:00 - What will Wizards do with 2nd pick? 27:00 - What is Alex Sarr's potential? 30:00 - Reed Sheppard 36:30 - Stephon Castle 43:00 - Spurs dream draft 44:00 - Where Donovan Clingan goes 52:00 - Cody Williams 55:00 - Devin Carter 58:00 - Dalton Knecht  01:00:00 - Is Bronny James a realistic NBA player? 01:11:00  - Check out Sam's work! (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Happy Tuesday, everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great week. Well, we are going to be diving headlong into the NBA draft today, which is tomorrow. It feels like the NBA finals were yesterday, and here we are. The draft is already about to take place. I can think of nobody better than Mr. San Vasini, my good friend, somebody that I trust as a basketball mind more than most, but I know I'm going to come off as pandering here, but

I think he's the very best at covering the draft as well. In addition to diving into it year round, he also gets the players themselves on his show with him. they go over tape together. He picks their brain. It's just, it's an incredible, uh, it's just an incredible process that he goes through to, to properly cover the draft. If you guys haven't checked out his draft guide yet, you have to. If you're not following or subscribing to his YouTube channel yet, you need to. But Sam, I'm really excited to get into this draft today. I was telling you before we, we, uh, before we started the show that this is

one of the hardest shows that I've ever had to prep for just simply because I don't look at the draft it all during the regular season and that I try to cram it all in in a week. But also, there's just so much up in the air this year. It feels like nobody knows where anybody's going. And obviously, you're a lot more well connected. And it seems like from what you've told me that it's been like that for you as well. So why don't you just tell us a little bit about this draft and what it's been like covering it this season?

Yeah. Thanks for having me. I mean, the big thing that I would take away from this is that because the talent is so flat at the top, right? There's no Victor Wimbunyama. There's no, like everyone knew Cade Cunningham was going number one. The year the Kate Cunningham went number one. There's no Zahm. I'm Williamson. I would argue there's not even really like a Markell Fultz, where people felt like, you know, Lonsa Ball and Jason Tatum in that year were pretty similar, at least, if not, you know, in the same tier to Markell Fultz. It was very clear that Markell was going to go number one that year.

I would argue there's not even, you know, for instance, I do tiers. the draft guide every year. And I don't have a tier one or a tier two player. Tier one guys are like guys I expect to be all NBA players. I noticed that. I was confused. I was like, am I missing pages?

Like, what's going on here? Yeah. So tier two is guys that like I think, you know, very realistic chance that they're all stars. It's like you're like I thought Chet Holmgren fit into that bucket. I thought Paula Bancaro fit into that bucket really high level.

I think both those guys are probably going to exceed that at the end of the day. but I had some questions about them in general and I felt a little bit more confident putting them into the all-star bucket as opposed to like the definite like you know top 15 guys in the league like all NBA bucket right I had victor in that bucket last year I don't have anybody in those two tiers and I'm not like stingy with those grades in the four years I've been doing the draft guide prior to this one I've ranked 16 players with a tier one or two or two grade look sometimes it works out and you have have Brandon Miller with the tier two grade. Other times it doesn't work out and you have James Wiseman with a tier two grade, right? I think I had tier two's on like Anthony Edwards and Lamella Ball that year. You know, I think I had, you know, I think Evan Mobley was two. I think Jaylon Green was the two. I think Suggs was a two.

And I still believe in basically all those guys in some respect. But yeah, I would say that this class does not have a guy that I, look at and I can confidently project all-star, like an all-star future onto them, undeniably, just by the law of large numbers in the way that development works once these kids get into situations, guys will emerge as all-stars. No questions asked. But when trying to find like a middle ground in terms of that evaluation and like an expected outcome, I don't know that I can like confidently tell you this specific player.

like I have Alexar at number one. I don't know if I can tell you that Alex Sar, I am expecting a number one level of production or an all-star quality level of production for him. I think he has a chance to be that player. I think there's certainly outcomes that he can hit where he becomes that player, but I don't know that I can sit here and tell you for sure that, you know, that's what I expect of him either. And that goes all the way through my top group of prospects.

So, you know, there will be all-stars that come out of this class. It's just going to be really hard to identify them. And I think that they're going to be maybe even a little bit more development-based than what we've seen in previous years. Yeah, that makes sense. So let me put you on the spot here. So if you had Jalen Green as a tier two prospect, does that mean that if Jalen Green was coming out of this class,

you would have had him number one? Not even close. That's super fascinating to me. And I'm not surprised because, like, obviously, I went through all these guys today. and like Alex Starr, obviously you had a number one. That was a guy. We're going to talk about Zachary Resacha here in a minute

because he's actually the Vegas favorite to go number one, which I really want to dive into here in a minute. But as I was watching Alex, I'm like, good player, really good defensive player doesn't feel like a number one overall pick to me. And so like that makes sense to me. And like, and to your point, like that kind of, that kind of tier that you're talking about, that tier two. And I, by the way, Chet and Palo, like,

they both have exceeded expectations, I would say when they got to the NBA. They both have been better faster than we expected. And that's, I think that those sound properly rated to me. So like, I wanted, you had mentioned to me before we started to that you wanted to, that you were expecting a lot of draft day trades or things surrounding the draft that involve trades. Let's get to that as we kind of go through the picks.

So I want to start with number one here. So according to draft Kings, Zachary Ressache is. the heavy favorite to go number one overall. As I was watching his film, I'm like, interesting, kind of like weakside shooter, super confident, can drive close-out, some interesting stuff on the ball. I thought about what you talked about with me when you came on during the finals, and we talked about like the two things that you look for in, like, in terms of success for modern NBA basketball with spacing and then ground coverage on defense.

And I thought about his length and he's pretty mobile and he's pretty good on the weak side, like jumping passing lanes and being a help help defender. But again, I don't even see the angle there over Alex Tsar. So like what is what is what do you think is driving the intel that Zachary is going to go potentially number one overall? Do you expect that to happen? And if so, is it going to go, do you think he'll end up in Atlanta or do you think there'll be a trade there?

Yeah. So the easiest way for me to talk about this right now is first and foremost, I don't feel wildly confident about anything with Atlanta. And the big key with Atlanta is there are just a number of voices in that room from what I understand. Quinn Snyder is certainly a voice in that room. You know, they convinced him to come, you know, out after he left Utah. And like, they didn't convince him to come just by telling him, you know, you're the coach

and that's it, right? Like, he has a voice in the room whenever it comes down to crunch time. Landry Fields certainly has a voice. There are differing degrees to which you will hear from folks that ownership and Tony Ressler and his son Nick Ressler will have a voice when it comes to it on draft night. So that creates a lot of differing incentives. It creates a lot of very challenging things for opposing. teams is they're trying to get a plan for what Atlanta's trying to do to parse through.

I would say that right now, look, I have the Ackery-Risset marked, or mocked right now at number one. I know that Atlanta has certainly reached out to a few different teams. They're looking at potentially moving down the board. They're trying to figure out, is there a way we can trade down, which makes sense, right? they're looking at a number of different options on a board where one through five or so looks pretty steady right in terms of talent there are teams that have preferences in that group there are teams that maybe have one of those guys a little bit ahead of the other but it makes sense why you would try and trade down when all of the talent is relatively flat the problem that I understand they're

running into is like who's going to move up in that case then who's trying to you know get to Zachary Rississachey when, you know, I kind of just outlined that I don't think that his likely outcome is necessarily like all star. I think he's going to be a really good starter. I think he's going to be a guy that, you know, like you said, like great weak side shooter. I think he can attack closeouts, but the problem is I think he struggles to maintain advantages after attacking. He's very skinny right now. So it's a big hope that he can continue to develop his frame and really get stronger despite being like kind of thinly framed like he doesn't have a lot like wide shoulders he's actually like quite skinny in terms of his shoulders so like the worry there is how does the frame

develop is he going to be able to actually maintain the advantages that he creates uh in space in traffic uh i think that he generally has struggled a little bit with contact this season if you look at him when he's like driving to the rim and trying to finish if he gets bumped i think that like he kind of loses control the ball loses control of his touch a little bit so i i I have him at number five personally. I really like him. And again, I have him in this top group.

So anybody in that top group of players, like I'm not going to crush Atlanta for taking them because I just don't see it as all that different. But yeah, like you mentioned Alexar. Like I just think Sarrar is bigger, covers ground a little bit better. He's definitely a worse shooter than what Rissus Shea is.

But I think that if you look at where the league is going, like these dribble past shoot bigs are kind of worth their weight in gold and I would just rather take an informed. This NBA draft is all about, this is the easiest way for me to explain it. This NBA draft is all about informed bets, right? You're trying to think about this in terms of bets, not in terms of, you know,

what this guy is going to be. I am trying to figure out who are my best bets in terms of the intersection of upside and like relatively high floor. I have Steph and Castle ahead of Zachary Rissachet. I think Steph's upside is higher than Rissus Shea because I think Steph can pass. I think that he can play through traffic. I think he's a better defender than Rissus Chay. But undeniably, his floor is lower than Rissachers.

Because Rissach can shoot it. And Steph Castle right now struggles to shoot it. If Steph Castle continues to struggle to shoot it, it's going to be a problem for Steph. But if the shot comes together, the informed bet that you're taking, would be that Steph Castle is probably going to become an all-star if the shot comes together in time. So thinking about this draft almost more in terms of like bets and like informed bets. And I don't like love it seems like dehumanizing on some level and I don't necessarily love framing it that way.

But that that's the way that you almost have to think about it in terms of like investing in this class in some way. Well, in the ruthless world of sports, that is how it works. but I agree with you. It is kind of funky talking about it. I always feel like it's weird being like a super micromanagey about prospects too. You're like, oh, this guy struggles with this. It's like, but he's awesome about all this other stuff. It's kind of just the weird nature of the job in so many different ways. Totally. I'm confused. So like if Atlanta were to take Rissa Shea, how does that clash with Jalen Johnson? Because don't they kind of, are they viewing him more as a three? I think it's actually a good, fit with Jalen Johnson for what it's worth because Jalen I think is probably going to be best is like a crash and like bang athlete who runs up and down the court in transition and is physical and is you know driving I think Rissa Shay can like helps face the floor and then you can have guys at the three and four Jalen Johnson's like this immense athlete who's you know driving and trying to pass and playmake and do everything that we've seen him do in his breakout season this

year in his third year. Brissus Shea can be the, you know, kind of off wing who can really knock down shots and be able to like have like high level defensive capabilities on the weak side, taking up a bunch of space with his frame and with his length. Jalen Johnson as well is a pretty good defender. So I actually really like that fit. I do like have questions about what it would mean for somebody like DeAndre Hunter. Do they try and just move DeAndre Hunter the summer at the end of the day?

I have some questions about what it would mean for their guard room. Just in general, that's another piece of this Atlanta conversation is nobody knows. With the backboard with the rest of the, we'll straight up just with the rest of their roster. Like, you know, how are they going to get under the tax? Like, are they going to trade Klingkepella? Are they going to try and do it via the potential DeJante Murray trade? Like, you know, will they consider moving trade young if someone tried to blow them away with an offer?

There's just so many different variables with the Hawks right now. And that's what makes rejecting their pick hard. Folks around the league that I talk to do tend to say Rissa Shea's name more than others. But Donovan Klingin went in there, had a great workout with Atlanta from what I understand. Really, you know, fits a lot of what Quinn Snyder particularly is looking for from the center position, having come from Utah, having had Rudy Gobert, who was this unbelievable. incredible screener, unbelievable drop coverage, rim protector big. I think that Quinn Snyder would do a lot of really great things with Donovan Klingin, but Donovan Klingin would not be a particularly sexy number one overall pick, right?

As I'm sure you watched when you saw Klingin, you know, really good player, like going to be an awesome player. If he snuck like an all-star birth, kind of like how Jared Allen did that year in Cleveland, would by no means surprise me. But I would say he projects as like a top 10 starting. center in the league. And that's just like not something teams are wildly enthusiastic about taking it at one. Yeah, when I had mentioned the fit, I was more meaning on the defense event. Do you think Jalen Johnson's good enough on the ball? Because I always get worried about the,

as someone who rooted for the Lakers last year, when you have a three and four that both suck on the ball, it could be a little bit of an issue. And so that's more what I look at. Like I almost want one of my three or four to be a guy that can fight over screens and chase a shooter around or chase a ball handler around. Do you have an upcoming fantasy football draft? Your preparation is not complete until you've used the draft wizard from fantasy pros.

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Get started today at fantasypros.com slash volume. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions,

my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes,

creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Cliverts Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Cliverts show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or we're

you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of Tontons and Wampas on the Ice Planet Hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Obviously, right now, Alex Sar is not good enough offensively to play the four. I actually, one of the things that I'm, one of the reasons why I'm higher on Alex, even though the shooting is obviously an issue. Well, first of all, his shooting has been making some improvements. It seems like year over year. The form isn't awful. It's not, it doesn't cause me any major concerns. And the main thing is, is he's really comfortable with dribble handoffs, which makes me think like, especially if Quinn Snyder were to kind of continue to kind of like build out more of a five out type of system where there's more ball and player movement. and Jalen Johnson's coming off of dribble handoffs out of, you know, Chicago action out of the corner and stuff like that. Like I just imagine Alex Saar being a really functional piece there. I liked the short role reps he was getting with Bryce Cotton out in Perth too. Like just when he was just making quick decisions on the role. Like I just kind of see him as more of a shoe in natural fit.

But to your point, like what it's like if you like Zachary Resachet, how long of how big of a drop off is it to like a Cody Williams as a big lanky wing that can play if you were to trade down. How big of a drop-off is it to go from Alex Sar to a different big further down in the draft? But at the same time, if you can't actually trade down because no one else wants to trade up, then you're kind of stuck. And so, like, to me, Alex Sar just kind of seems like a more natural fit in Atlanta.

But, I mean, the Vegas numbers seem pretty confident that he's going to be headed, that it's going to be Zachary Resachet. So if Rishat, if Rishat goes one, who do you think goes number two to Washington? Yeah, the name that I've gotten mostly connected there is SAR. It feels like, you know, that seems like where this is headed is Alexar to Washington. Will Dawkins, who is now the general manager of the Washington Wizards, was the assistant general manager of the Oklahoma City Thunder prior to getting this job. You know, played a role in drafting Chet Holmgren. Alex Sarr certainly also repped by WME, Bill Duffy, the same.

agent that represents Chet Holmgren. It's a pretty easy connection to make there in terms of, you know, Will Dawkins, I think, wants guys that have this immense upside athletically and allows him to play a potentially interesting five-out strand of basketball in a similar way to how Oklahoma City has built their roster. It is difficult to find senators who can dribble past shoot. or at least that have potential to dribble past shoot. It's part of the reason, like, we're not going to talk about this guy today,

but, you know, Kyle Filipowski seems to be a guy that's like kind of falling down boards whenever I talk to teams. Like, I don't know where his floor is on draft night quite yet, but I'm way higher on him because he's a genuine dribble past shoot big man in an NBA that is like begging for those guys right now. Alexar has potential to genuinely be that on offense, even if it is. trying to think about the extent to which I want to say this quite theoretical right now at this point. The jumper, you know, when I watched him throughout the year, I thought it had way too much offhand interaction.

More than anything, he'd get like a bit of a side spin on the ball. When I saw him later in the year, he clearly had been working through cleaning that up in a real way. It looks a little bit less side spinny. And then I saw him at a pre-draft workout. up and you know look there was like a very very small amount of side spin but it was clear that like he's making that adjustment you know in real time being a teenager kind of fixing his shot i think he has good rhythm through the shot i think he is very good balance for a guy he moves like a wing it's seven feet tall right like seven foot four wingspan and you know that ground coverage defensively

is really critical he's very comfortable dribbling with the ball in his hands you mentioned kind of the dribble handoff game the short roll passing that i think he's flashed but it's all it's all in though right now with Alex it's not you know this is not chet holmgren when chet holmgren came out against aga i was like this is the most like anticipatory big defender that i've evaluated like he just doesn't have victor's tools right you know victor is simple four with an eight foot standing reach which gives him this like immense margin for error but like chet's anticipation defensively is unbelievable uh for a guy that is you know seven foot with seven foot five wingspan and then on offense he was a 40 percent three point shooter at Gonzaga who could like grab and go on the break and like be functional

with his balance and coordination like Alex isn't any of that yet but he has potential to get to a point where he is like a 15 point you know eight rebound you know three assists per game guy that's also a really high level defender with like all defense level upside because of how much ground he can cover on the weak side and I think even in switch scenarios down the road yeah I I love how aggressive he is in ball screens too. Like one of my biggest pet peeves watching Biggs defend in ball screens, this used to always kill me with Daniel Gafford when I was scouting him, but when the Mavericks got him where it's almost like they just,

they almost find themselves in no man's land where they're not bothering the ball handler or bothering the role man in any way, shape, or form. Like, he gets burned for it sometimes, but I like how Alex is aggressive on the ball handler. And one of the reasons why I think that could be beneficial is like, especially against certain types of teams with a guard. are a little hesitant to make those passes or when they struggle to make those passes, his length being aggressive in ball screens, I think could be useful.

I think he does have a pretty damn high floor, which is why it made sense to me that you had him at number one. Like, he's going to be a solid NBA center. It's just a question of whether or not he has that true upside. And obviously, only time will tell. As you said, it's an informed gamble. So number two on your big board, you had Reed Shepard. Now, obviously, he had that rough game in the NCAA tournament, but he had just a historic shooting season at Kentucky.

I was really fascinated reading in your draft guide, his background and just the pedigree that he came from. It's just like, that's crazy. His dad was the most outstanding player in the NCAA tournament back in 98, was it? 98, I think. Yeah. Like, that's crazy. He's Kentucky royalty. like it's the easiest way to put it.

Like he is University of Kentucky royalty. Like his dad, Jeff is one of the like beloved players in the University of Kentucky's basketball history. And his mom, Stacey is like one of the, when she retired, you know, stop playing it.

Kentucky, I think she was like one of the 10 best players in University of Kentucky history. Like, it's crazy. Yeah, I think that's what you had in the bio. She's a top, I think she's like top 10 all time in scoring at Kentucky, which is crazy.

So I, I view read in my, in my brief little film session, I did with him, I kind of view him as a guy that I think could be a really good fifth, like fifth best player on a good team, just because he does everything really well, functions within a team really well, just a deadly shooter from all these different ranges. He's got the ability to get shots off from every kind of footwork. Like he can hop into it.

He can left right. He can come off the move. He can go off the bounce. Like there's so much that you can do creatively. A little bit of Osse Reeves in there with some of the creative rise and fireststiles. stuff from the 15 to 18 foot range. Where do you see, where do you want him to go? Where do you expect him to end up?

Yeah. So I like the idea of him in Houston personally. When I look at that young Houston core, I see, you know, Amen Thompson, Jabari Smith, Jalen Green, Tari, Ysen, you know, Cam Whitmore certainly I think deserves to be mentioned in that group. And then Alper and Schengun, of course, is like their, you know, center that, you know, could be an also.

star as soon as next season. The one thing that I think they're missing there is like a super high level shooter at the end of the day. Getting Reed to like operate and dribble handoffs with Alper and Schengun, like that would be disgusting to me. I also think Reed like really fits well with a men in Thompson in terms of like having that secondary playmaker out there if you want to try and make a men a point guard, which is what he was drafted as even though this year he played kind of more on the

wing and like even in the front court at times after Schengun went down. I think that Reed just makes a ton of sense for them as like a connector and is the kind of guy that helps you win. I think that his anticipation defensively is just like outstanding. He has physical tools that are very limiting. He is 6'1 not super long in terms of his arm length or anything. He has like a 6-3, 6-4 wing span, something like that. But he blocked shots. He has a 40-inch vertical leap and he blocked like,

point seven shots this year, which is a crazy number for a guy that measured in just under six foot two. He is somebody that like really scrambles well on the back line defensively. Like he makes these crazy like scramble reeds where he'll just like force steals at a super high level. And one thing that like I've watched a lot of recently. And we'll talk about this when we talk about Devin Carter too. I know, I know that you are a fan of after watching his tape.

the degree to which you can space the court, not just in terms of percentage, but in terms of how far away you can actually shoot from, that is really important to me, if only because if you don't have these immense athletic tools or an immense bag of like tricks where you're crossing dudes up, I think that being able to shoot from 30 feet is kind of a differentiation because it gives you so much more space to operate away from help defense.

If you can change pace and you can shoot from 30 feet, it's just hard to stay in front of guys, just point blank at this point in the NBA. Reed made 50% of his threes from beyond, what is the number here I have, from beyond 27 feet this year. So like, I kind of think that you're going to have to account for him

in such a real way. It's kind of like Tyrese Halliburton, right? Tyrese Halliburton has that kind of funky load into his shot. So what did he do? He just learned how to shoot from 30 feet at the end of the day. And that's how he became so valuable as like a floor space there and then allowed him to use his passing ability and take advantage and really get into the teeth of the defense and spray the ball out.

I'm not saying that Reed is that as a passer. I don't think he is. I think Reed's best transition passer in this draft class. But in terms of like half court reads, I think. he's still figuring it out. But I also think that like that shooting gravity gives him way more upside than what people are thinking in this class when mixed with the fact that he can also handle the ball. I like the Houston fit a lot too just because I imagine with them playing a lot with pace

and with all their athletes in transition. I loved watching his footage at Kentucky operating in transition where like everyone's kind of scattered. And that's when he can really get into some nifty footwork and dribble. combinations and to pull up three point shots. And I just imagine defense is reacting to him there and then just athletes running around him and him being able to find those reads. I enjoyed watching him today.

Or even better with that real quick. Or a men Thompson like sprints down the court all the way. And then you've just got Reed Shepard like trailing and spraying out to the wings. Right. Yeah. Like it's just it's really synergistic in the way it would work. I think. Yeah.

The 30 footers two are great when you get to be old like me. That's how you play lazy basketball. You're 6-6 and you shoot 30-foot three-point shots and you don't have to worry about landing on someone's ankle. Okay, so Stefan Castle from Yukon famously was being left wide open in the tournament, but making them pay, hit a couple of them. I really enjoyed watching him too. There were some fun players. I enjoyed watching.

There's some fun players in this draft. To me, Stefan Castle kind of reminds me of like a bigger version of Jalen Hood-Shafino. If that makes sense in the sense that like he's very, it's very, Jason, pace, pace heavy. I know, I know, but you got to remember like, like, I've, that, that burned to me too. It's a whole other thing. But what I mean by that is like, I, he reminded me of Jalen Huchifino when I was scouting him last year where it's like the jumpers, the big question mark, more of like a power

methodical, put you in jail, kind of operate from the short range kind of area, deadly hook and floater short jump shot that sort of thing but just a way better version of him and the main reason why i think his footwork is better and i think he's got more counter moves in that short to mid range that allows him to operate and like honestly like i didn't see anything with his jump shot he's a little down in front of the face a little bit of a long load but i think that can be worked out in time uh i'm i'm pretty high on step on castle i saw you had him way up at third on your list. Where do you see him ending up? I'm really glad that you brought up the shot because, you know, you mentioned that like he has

like the load up here and then like it comes up and it's kind of a funky shot and he has like a little bit of a hitch kind of at the top. I think that that's mostly when he's kind of going to his left. I think when he's going to his left because like most right-handed shooters, right, just more comfortable stepping back to their left or kind of, you know, drifting to their left a little bit. just helps them get into rhythm a little bit easier. But with him, what I see is he drifts a little bit too far to his left. And I think it kind of like throws off his like center of balance and everything.

And I think the shot's a little bit hitchier. When he's going to his right, he tends to take those shots off the hop. And I think that like it just looks way cleaner. And I think that everything like kind of tracks a little bit easier. And if I was in organization kind of working through his shot, like I would love to just, you know, kind of with his shot prep and like,

you know, getting into the shot and his load into it, just like start having him take things off the hop a little bit more. Like he does a one two step from the left side, take it off the hop in the right. Like I just think it looks cleaner, uh, going off the hop.

But in terms of where I see him going, you know, San Antonio has been connected with him, you know, for a while now, uh, you know, for a couple of months.

It feels like, uh, that is a situation that everyone would be like pretty amenable to in terms of both San Antonio and Castle's camp. Uh, if, you know, there was somebody who fell to number four,

like if Reed Shepherd got there, I think it would be a question. If Rissachet got to four, I think it'd be a real question. And then I think the castle would very likely probably go six at the latest. You know, maybe eight would be the latest, let's say,

because I would be surprised if he would get beyond the San Antonio's second pick at number eight, right? But somewhere in that four to eight range, I would say is where Steph will end up. I think that you kind of, hit the down on the head in terms of what the offense is. I think he's a really sharp passer.

If you'd even go back to his high school stuff, you can see some like really impressive ball screen reps, uh, utilizing his passing ability where he'd hit skip passes pretty well. And he'd be able to, uh, really, really be able to get downhill out of that screen and maintain that advantage. Kind of like you mentioned,

keeping guys in jail kind of on his hip and everything. Uh, the big question is the shot though. And the other thing I will say is, I don't know if I think of him as an, defense level defender. But I think of him as this incredible chess piece defender who is kind of above average doing every assignment on defense.

Like they had him in the tournament guard Mark Sears, who was an all American point guard at the point of attack and just make his life miserable. You know, they had him guard, produce point guard, Braden Smith. Throughout the season, they would have him like chase Baylor Shireman and other potential first round pick this year off of screens because, you know, Creighton just ran Baylor off of screens constantly. They would have him guard like true off guards, like scoring guards and things like that as opposed to wings.

I think he can guard fours with how physical and strong he is. There's just a lot of versatility and what his role can be on defense. And I think that particularly in San Antonio, it would be really valuable to have somebody like that next to Victor Wenbanyama, next to Devin Vesel particularly as well. Because Vesel looked like a guy who was going to be a really good defender coming out of floor state and it just hasn't really happened at this point for him in the NBA. I would love to get somebody like Steph Castle in there that can like just take on a lot of different assignments and, you know, hopefully the offensive game just continues to grow and

develop. So we're going to move to a little bit more of a rapid fire format here because as as usual, Sam, we just have a tendency to go for a very long time. And, uh, and, uh, I know. I, uh, it's so funny. You like, you like complained. No, you didn't complain. You were like, thank you so much for coming and doing this.

Thank you. Like, I know it's crazy busy. I'm just like, Jason, I love doing this. Like, this is great. These are like, by some of my favorite conversations that I do is with you and like thinking about the game in different ways. It was just like very funny. Complaining in our profession is always relative.

That's always something we have to keep in mind. But I want to, I want to get to a bunch of additional players and I want to get to Brony in the next 16 minutes. So we're going to go a little bit more rapid fire here really quickly. really quickly if you when you talk to people from San Antonio

when you do some digging on that front what would be their dream outcome for getting four and eight who would be I don't

so I think that their dream outcome would be finding a way to get Rissa She and Castle I think they could find a way to move up

and get like four and five or three and four in some way if they could figure out a way to do that I think they'd be really happy on draft night.

I think it'll be a little bit difficult. But that would be my guess in terms of how they foresee a win, especially if Rissoshae goes one, I think it'd be a little bit difficult to do that. Yeah, I really enjoyed Stefan Castle. Like, he just, no matter how big the game was, no matter how big the situation was, he just never got sped up.

He just was always kind of playing at his own pace. He was fun to watch. Donovan Klingin, I like a lot of stuff with him. I love how he fun. in that Yukon offense just as like a really good. You talked a lot about his screening in the in the draft guy that you did, but I also think he has got a really good instinct for when to slip. Like he always can,

he always just kind of has his eye on when his defender's showing. And as soon as his defender decides to show, he just doesn't even bother setting the screen anymore. He just gets out of there. And then like he just, he's got good hands. He finishes most, most of his catches around the basket.

The one thing that freaks me out with him is I worry about him being a a little bit matchup dependent because I don't think he's quick-footed enough to guard in space. What's your take on Donovan Klingin? No, I agree with all of that. I think he's like pure drop coverage is a big. What I will say is

generally, you know, in terms of the scouting, I think you really nailed what he is. It's not a complicated evaluation. He's just an elite level drop coverage, big man, elite level rim protector, great finisher at the basket. The thing I will throw on is he's a really good high post passer and like passer in terms of he can run dribble handoffs deny dribble handoff find a cutter like in a super super high level he manipulates defenders already really good at that but if he gets down to like the three to six range on draft night there are a bunch of teams so like the three to six range the rockets have shangoon the hornets have mark williams uh the pistons have jalen durran and then four is san antonio they have victor weum yama right so like

those teams don't need a center in theory, right? There are a number of teams in the like 7 to 12 range or so, let's call it, 7 to 11 range. I'd throw Oklahoma City in, I guess, that have like a real degree of interest in him. And that's kind of the one that I'm targeting. Like if I'm Memphis in particular, right, like that's my favorite fit in this draft. It would be Memphis ending up on draft night with Donovan Klingen. Maybe if he falls to five, they trade a future first round.

pick in number nine to move up to number five to assure themselves Donovan Klingin, who would be this incredible fit within their scheme setting screens for John Morant, being the drop coverage defender to let Jaron roam on the backside defensively. But if Donovan Klingan gets into that three to six range, look for somebody to move up to get him, in my opinion, because if you hear, as I hear things from teams, it seems like there's a lot of interest in him in that like seven to 12 range and I think somebody will try and spike up to gravel. That's super interesting. So you're saying these front offices basically have like a bunch of a bunch of game plans that are contingent on what's on who's going where. So if this guy

slips, then we're prepared to trade up if in the event that that happens. I really like the the cling and fit with Memphis as well. I think they're rangy enough around him. I don't think I don't think people realize yet how good Gigi Jackson is too and just slot it. If they get a legit center and it's Morant, Bain, Jackson, and then a legit center like that, I think they're going to be right back in the mix at the top of the conference next year, especially as a regular season team with all their youthful exuberance. They have Marcus Smart too. Like that's the other thing.

Yeah, they have Marks Smart. Great. Like, Gigi Jackson. Like, I want to see where it goes with Gigi Jackson. Like, I'm really interested. And like, if I was redrafting last year, I think I would have Gigi like in the top seven of that class. like point blank.

But, you know, next year, like, Marcus is going to be the guy that's, like, really valuable for them. And, like, we'll see what Gigi looks like is where I'm at. Well, and then also there's that they would inevitably have to have a small ball look anyway where you can imagine Gigi being the four of next to Jared Jackson. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

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I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

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You and I are admittedly biased on the Williams family. I think you and I might be the two biggest. Jaylen Williams fans in the world. Although I did almost get in trouble with Sam the other day on the phone because I told him that I thought that Jaylin Williams has potential to be better than Shea. And Sam had to quickly put him put me in my place. But Cody Williams. I don't even know that I did that. I was just like, oh wow. Like I was taking a back. I love Jaylen Williams. So obviously, you know, it's kind of funny. There's a little bit of Jaylin in Cody's game. Mainly the pull-up jump shot footwork looks similar in the sense of They both look really good going left. They have that same right left footwork where they both kind of lean back a little bit. But Cody just has this like a totally different look to him because he's like lanky and a little bit taller, a little bit skinnier. Tell us a little bit about Cody Williams and where you want him to end up. Yeah, I think he really is kind of like a, you know, when Jalen was that young, Jalen was still pretty, he was shorter actually.

Like when he committed to Santa Clara as a senior, he was, I want to say like six foot three or so. like it honestly might have been like six foot two and then like grew before he got to Santa Clara and then kept growing all the way up to like six four and a half I think he is without shoes now that has that enormous seven foot two wingspan Cody is six seven seven foot one wingspan so big and long just very skinny and is continuing to grow into his frame I think that the footwork is a driver is where I see the similarities I think that a lot of that looks quite similar I'm glad you brought up the pull up game because you know Cody's pull up game is definitely still developing, I would say. You know, didn't take a ton of pull-up jumpers in high school, where he went to, I think, Perry down in your neck of the woods in Arizona. You know, just a really, really good upside bet, I think, is a wing that could be like a playmaker. I think he passes really well.

I would like to see him be like a little bit more disruptive defensively, but I think he can get there just with his length and with his physical tools. So I look at what Cody Williams has, and I ended up with him six on my board. you mentioned the Rississet comparison earlier in the show. I have them literally five and six, so I don't see an enormous difference between the two of those.

Players, they're different types, but I quite like Cody Williams as well. That's, I think, a good indicator of this draft right there. Is Risesché might end up going number one? And like, yeah, Cody's not a perfect corollary. They play a different style, but they're two lanky wings, right? Obviously, Riseschet is a much better shooter at this point.

but Cody shot well in catch and shoot situations, it seemed like when I was looking into it today. All right, we have three more quick players that we're going to get through. First, probably the guy that I had the most fun watching today, Devin Carter out of Providence. I really thought it was fascinating. He was seeing really aggressive coverages,

which I'm assuming had a lot to do with the roster that he was playing with. But it seemed like towards the tail end of the season, his playmaking was improving after struggling with it a little bit to start the year. but freaky athletic, really good score. Just, I thought he, I thought his motor really impressed me.

Just in general, he just was like, he just seemed like a boxhole type of dude, like a guard that I'd love to have competing alongside me. So tell us about Devin Carter and where you hope to see him end up. Yeah, kind of a, like,

very different players, but like a Derek White, like kind of starter kit to me. You know, Devin, I think is the best athlete in the class, just kind of, you know, I keep saying point blank, but point blank. He is a 40 inch vertical leap guy.

He is, you know, any combine tests you put him through, he's going to win. I think he literally won almost all of the combine testing. And he's not one of those guys where it's not functional. It shows up all over his tape. Like he blocks one shot per game. He gets into passing lanes and, you know, creates transition opportunities. He had like 30 half court dunks or something this year at six foot two. believe it.

Like a 6 foot 9 wingspan. He is a serious, serious leaper. And then the big thing is like, what is the handle, right? It's a lot of straight line stuff, a lot of like trying to change pace.

How he started to account for that this year was he just started moving back and taking deeper threes, right? If teams were going to collapse down on him whenever he shot, okay, I'm just going to take 27 foot threes, right? That's the big question with Devin.

You know, his first two years in college, one at South Carolina, one at Providence, which is where he ended up this year as well, I made like 27% from three. This year got way better, way up to the volume.

Was it like 38% or so from three on seven three point attempts per game? A lot of pull-up shots, a lot of contested shots. The thing I love about Devin, though, is like I've seen him work out. Like I've talked to people about him. Everything that you see on tape in terms of why you love him being a foxhole guy, it's who he is off the court.

Like incredible work ethic, you know, great competitor. All of the boxes get ticked there. I ended up with him at seven. I'm probably the highest person in the public sphere on him. I've talked to teams that are higher on him than that, honestly. So yeah, I love Devin Carter. Yeah, it's kind of reminds me of the JJ Reddit conversation.

Obviously, it's different from a coach. But it's like, give me a super competitive dude who loves basketball and has the natural talent, like the understanding of the game. I just feel like they're going to find a way to figure it out. That's the kind of the way I feel with Devin Carter. like super competitive, loves the game, relentless worker,

any elite athletic tools. Like that just automatically to me makes you a super interesting player and a guy that I'd be willing to take a bet on. All right, two more quick ones. Dalton Connect.

I have Tennessee. You and I talked a lot about him during the tournament this year. The Juco brethren. The Juco brethren. I know, yeah, this is,

Dalton's like the much, much better version of me. He's like what I would have been like if I was way better at basketball. Similar kind of to high, at 6.5 and a half without shoes on, 610 wingspan, kind of a score first mentality, really showed some high-level shot making in the NCAA tournament.

What do you kind of see him looking like as an NBA player? Where do you like to see him end up? Plug and play shooter for sure really needs to improve on defense. In terms of hitting like top 10 upside, I would like to see him land in a scheme where like he'll run off of all that floppy stuff that Tennessee would run him off of, run him off of all sort of like flares. and try to get him shots early in an offense.

To me, that's where he'll hit like a real ceiling. But, you know, regardless of where he goes, he's going to knock down shots and he's going to be valuable, I think. So we absolutely have to, per our agreement as NBA media members, discuss Brony James. And I obviously have not watched him nearly as closely as you have. So why don't you just give us just your pure, unadulterated, unbiased perspective on what Brony James looks.

Because an important little disclaimer here. Like, I don't give a shit about the nepotism angle. Like, he's going to get his opportunity. He's going to get several years to figure out whether or not he's an NBA player. So, like, everyone just needs to accept that. That's the reality. He's going to get his shot. The question is, if he gets two, three years in an NBA organization to try to figure

this out, what NBA level tools does he have? and is there a realistic shot for him to round out into an NBA player eventually? So the idea behind Brony James is like a three-end T guard. Not like a three-and-d-d-wing. He's like six foot one and a half, right? So he is a guard.

The names that will come up are Gary Harris and Avery Bradley. Those are the two most popular names I've heard from teams if they like him. or like anybody that's like trying to figure out a point of comparison. I don't think people quite understand how good those guys were in high school and college. Both of those guys were five star recruits coming out of high school. Avery Bradley, a top five kid in his class.

Gary Harris was like, you know, top 20 kid in his class. Gary Harris eventually went on. I think he won Big Ten Player of the Year. If you didn't win Big Ten player of the year, he was first team all Big Ten. was like an outstanding, outstanding player over multiple years at Michigan State, top 20 pick was fantastic, you know, became this awesome three and D guard.

Like, you know, could guard even up to the three eventually. Avery Bradley was a guy that averaged like 11, 3, and 3 in his freshman year at Texas, or maybe like 11, 5, and 3. And was by the end of his year at Texas, one of like the great perimeter defenders in college basketball.

He was a monster at the point of attack, which is why he ended up going in the top 20. Brani was a, I thought a good defender this year for a freshman. I didn't feel like he was particularly crazily disruptive anywhere. I would say defense was his best attribute this season as a basketball player. And we really wouldn't be having this conversation

if it wasn't for LeBron being involved. I kind of have gone back. I'm going to cut you off really quickly here. Just how much do you think let me play devil's advocate. Kid a heart surgery before the season. Does that have a substantial impact on what his USC film slash statistical production

would it look like? I think it has an impact for sure. My issue with Ronnie has kind of always been, though, that I've never seen him as like a half court shot creator at all. I've always seen him. He's pretty good in transition. I think he makes like pretty solid passing reads. I think he's smart and like understands the game at an intuitive level in a way you would expect from LeBron's child.

Right. Just the genetics that kind of filter down, whatever it is. Like I think he sees the game in the open court in a really positive way. It's just really hard for me to envision a player that, averaged, you know, under five points per game as a freshman at six foot one being a draft prospect. Like I've kind of gone back through, but like back to like 2007, 2008, like something like that. I believe Bronny James would be the first player drafted that is like under six foot two

and averaged under five points per game. a one in done player. It's just an extremely uncommon degree of production and size to be entering the NBA draft. Now, you and I just talked

about how much we love Devin Carter. And we truly like adore that guy's game. I think that there are outcomes where if Brony had stayed in college for a couple of years, we could have been looking at Brony as a similar player to Devin.

Carter because Evan Carter started South Carolina averaged like seven points per game, eight points per game, whatever, first year moved up to Providence, average 14 points a game, you know, and six rebounds or so. And then this year was, you know, 20 points, eight rebounds,

four assists, like was one of the best players in the country. You could have convinced me of that pathway, but where I'm worried now about Brony is I don't think he can play point card in the G league, unless they force it. Like, if they might force the issue, like, let's just be honest about it.

So I'm worried about him getting reps, being able to develop his ball handling and develop his half court feel as a playmaker in the way that would allow him to get the most out of his game long term. Maybe he will. Maybe he won't. I wish the best for the kid, obviously. Like, The kid has gone through a crazy number of difficult situations between the heart condition, the pressure that's on him as LeBron James's kid. The fact that he seemingly is as well adjusted as he is, and like everybody will kind of tell you he is quite well adjusted. And I've been in like media scrums with him before.

He seems like a really, really nice dude. And like a, again, like a mature beyond his years in some way. a teenager. But, like, at some level, like, the game is the game, right? And you've got to be able to prove it. Like, everyone talks about, like, Tony Allen, right? Tony Allen's, you know, more our age-ish, right? Do you remember how good Tony Allen was at Oklahoma State, Jason?

Oh, my God. Tony Allen won the Big 12 player of the year. He won the Big 12 tournament MVP. He led Oklahoma State to a 31stay. and four record and led them to the final four. And that guy, like Boston, like, tried to make him a point guard for a minute or whatever, but he eventually settled in as, like, one of the great defensive players in the league. And that's the vision that people have for brawny.

And there's just, like, no, to me, like, I just don't know what the backing for that is based on what we've seen so far is maybe the fairest way to put it. But maybe he can get there. Do you think, quickly, do you think, do you think this was a strategic move on the family and clutch sports part to capitalize on more of the intrigue around him knowing? Because like, here's the thing. I would imagine he'd actually make more money going back to USC in NIL deals. So, or at least close. So like, do you think they're actually trying to avoid him putting more college tape out there that kind of dampens or kind of like minimizes some of the intradies?

surrounding his potential. I think that everything about this has been strategic from Clutch. I've never heard an agent be more public about the way he's handling a prospect than Rich Paul has been with Rodney James at this point. And to me, all of that is very strategic. Coming out and saying that he won't take a two way is trying to drive him down the board at the end of the day because if you're trying to stop other teams from taking him, you know, coming out.

and saying that he'll only work out certain places, that's trying to drive him to a specific situation. So I think the whole thing has been trying to control the process, drive him to specific situations. You know, let's be honest, like it seems like the Lakers. I'm not going to sit here and say,

like, for sure it's the Lakers, but the way Rich Paul is handling this process is exactly the way you would handle it if your goal was to get him to a specific destination. Without saying that that is a, 100% the goal and that I know that's 100% the goal. Everything he has done has been acting like that is the goal, at least, let's say.

So like, and I respect it. Like I understand the goal. I understand everything about it. In terms of like making more NIL, less on it. NIL, if he just stayed in school. My, the most popular college that I got for Bruny, because he did enter the transfer portal. So colleges, you know, kind of had a sense of what was going on. The most popular name, I'm not saying he would have gone there. I'm just saying the most popular idea I got for Brony James

was for him to go to Duquesne, which is where Drew Joyce just got the head coaching job. Drew Joyce played high school basketball with LeBron at St. Vincent St. Mary's. His dad, you know, I believe Drew Joyce, senior or the second, I can't remember Drew coaching Duques now as the third or not. was a coach at St. Vincent, St. Mary's, you know, for LeBron. And then Drew Joyce, who just took the Duquesne job, was the head coach or was an assistant coach under Keith Dan Brott, who was LeBron's head coach also at St. Vincent, St. Mary's early in his career. So there were a lot of familial connections where if you're going to send Brony somewhere, it would be very comfortable, right? that's a place where you know that Brony will be treated well, where you know that he'll get every opportunity to succeed.

And honestly, like in the A10 level, I think that'd be great for Brony to get a chance to like thrive and get a chance to play on the ball and showcase what he's capable of. But, you know, ultimately they decided to go a different way and I respect it. I just have concerns as to whether or not it was what was best for his development.

Because the G league is a higher level of basketball at the end of the game. It's going to be very sink or swim for him, for sure. And again, my last take on it again is like, I hate when people complain about the nepotism because guess what, nepotism has existed in every single field for as long as I can possibly remember. It's not even the first time it's happened in the NBA. Like, big, who cares? He's going to benefit from it. He's going to get a lot of opportunity as a result of it. But guess what? No good coach is going to put him on an NBA floor in a meaningful basketball game if he doesn't earn his opportunity to be there. So like at a certain point, like we talked, we opened the show with it. Like this, this,

is the nature of the ruthlessness of professional sports. He might have his opportunity to grow and to learn on the fringes of the NBA, but like no one's going to just hand him a starting role on a legitimate NBA team. He's going to have to earn it. He's just going to get an opportunity by virtue of this. But that is all we have time for today. Sam, can you please just tell everybody how to find your draft guide, how to find your other NBA draft content? I think it was, I can't even tell you how much it helped me today in my crash course on this NBA draft to just as a reference as I was going through film. It just was such an incredible product.

And I want you to shout it out to everybody so we can get as many people over there as possible. We have a testimonial. Go to the athletic where the draft guide is up. It's like 130,000 words on the 75 best prospects in this class, according to me at least. You'll be able to read about their backgrounds a little bit, get more of an understanding of where they come from. understand their strengths, their weaknesses, and kind of where I stand on them as prospects. Go to the Game Theory YouTube channel. I have interviewed like eight or nine or ten of these kids where you'll be able to watch

film of me breaking down film with them, right? Today I released Donovan Klingin, right? Donovan was super fun. He's like this awesome kid, really good personality. Tomorrow I'll release Tristan De Silva, who's like one of the most mature and like super high IQ basketball players I've gotten his chance to talk to as a player rising from college to the NBA. So go to the game theory podcast with Sam's Senior YouTube channel. You'll see you all that. And look, I'll be going live for the draft. So I'm excited to kind of run through it and talk

through it all with you guys. Yeah, I know you're sick of me telling you thank you. But thank you again for making the time to do this for us today. We might as well record it. Jason, we might as well record it, right? Because we're going to do it anyway over the phone. So exactly, exactly. Get a product out there in the content space, right? Exactly. Might as well have it help our jobs a little bit. All right, guys, that is all we have for today. Tomorrow, I am recording a video on the five biggest takeaways from this postseason, which is also going to feature some of the things that Sam and I have talked about over

the course the last few weeks. And then obviously we'll be reacting to the draft on Thursday morning. As always, I sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting the show. We'll see you tomorrow. The volume. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite, unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel,

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