The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - NBA Draft: Why Alex Sarr should go No. 1, OTE's top prospects w/ GM Damien Wilkins

Episode Date: June 25, 2024

Jason Timpf is joined by Overtime Elite General Manager/Head of Basketball Damien Wilkins to break down OTE's top prospects in the 2024 NBA Draft. Jason and Damien discuss why Alex Sarr should be the first overall pick for the Atlanta Hawks to pair with Trae Young, the best fits for Rob Dillingham following his breakout season with Kentucky, and why Tyler Smith is set up to be one of the biggest steals of the draft! The guys also share their thoughts on player development in the US and whether international players have taken over the NBA with Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo, and Luka Doncic leading the charge. 4:30  - Overtime Elite's growth 11:00 - How OTE prepares prospects 14:00 - Why Alex Sarr should go No. 1 28:00 - Rob Dillingham's best fits 39:00 - How Rob grew at OTE 44:00 - Why Tyler Smith is Draft sleeper 55:00 - Have international players overtaken American players? (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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All right, welcome to Hootsonite here at the volume. Happy Monday, everybody. Hope all of you guys had a great weekend. Well, it is time to shift our attention towards the NBA draft. And we have a very special guest today to get that. process started. We have Damien Wilkins, who is the general manager and head of basketball over at the overtime elite. And he also, I'd be remiss if I didn't say, is also a veteran of over 500 NBA games. We have two overtime elite prospects that are projected to go in the lottery as well as a third

who is expected to go in the late first round. And so we're going to dive into those guys, talk a little bit about overtime elite in general and their role that they play in basketball development. I'm very excited. It's going to be a fun one. So Damien, I was talking to you before we went live here. So most of my listeners know that we don't focus a ton on the draft until the week of, and we focus primarily just on the NBA kind of flow of the season. And so I don't think a ton of people are super aware of the spot that overtime elite fills in this space. And last year with the Thompson twins, suddenly you guys came to the forefront with these two awesome watery prospects that both project to be longtime pros. that have enormously high ceilings. So tell us a little bit about overtime elite

and the space that it fills in basketball development. Oh, man. So for us, like overtime elite is pretty much defined as a developmental program, a very accelerated development program. You know, we started out in year one with three teams in our league. And then we went from year one to year two and had six teams.

And we just finished year three, season three, and we had eight teams in our league. So we've grown every year that we've been a part of been in this space. But for us, in our hub in Atlanta, we have three teams, City Reaper's RWE, and Cold Hearts are the name of our teams, our brands. That's in-house. We have five other teams outside of our market, outside of our Atlanta market, one in New York, one in our areas. Arizona, one in California, and two in North Carolina, which make up our eight-team league. Within our hub here in Atlanta, our three teams and 33 players that are here on campus in Atlanta, everything we do here is customizable from the academic piece to the strength and conditioning

piece to the social branding and marketing piece and to the on-court player development stuff. It is customized to each individual player's needs and based on their strengths in weaknesses. Where they are, we meet our guys where they are the minute they walk into the door. And we try to create in them when they leave to be what we call an OTE guy. And that's what that entails is basically we've already, we've leveled them up from a branding standpoint, right? We've got them tons of followers and marketing and all of that stuff, right? We built their bodies up as much as we can build them up based on their baseline when they were. here and we've turned them into exceptional basketball players on the court through our training

and development program. Again, that's customizable to them. But more importantly, we try to send them out of here professional and successful people, which are much more confident than they were when they came in here, much more well-rounded when they came in here, and just someone that can contribute to any organization, sports or otherwise. one state league. That is our ultimate goal. You know, so far from basketball development standpoint, I think we've done that. Everything we do here again, it is, you know, individualized for each guy that we have here. And we spend a lot of time on the court.

We have about three and a half to four hours of academics every day. And then the rest of the time, you're doing some type of training on the court if you're not doing any social or marketing or branding things. So our guys' days are full and it's challenging. It's an iron, sharp and iron environment. You know, you've got a lot of guys that come here from their, you know, respective high schools and they come into this environment and they're no longer the best player in the building anymore. You know, you're standing next to and competing with

or against someone next to you every day that's either better than you or just as good. And, you know, we put our guys through extensive, just basketball training, all the things to help them become the most professional that they can become. Yeah, you know, I've been really impressed and I think that there's no way to look at it as anything other than an overwhelming success

when you see how these guys immediately translate into other environments. Like the Thompson twins both come in and like just immediately buy into the team concept, play their role, behave like professionals. Like even like Rob Dillingham, just going into Kentucky and immediately becoming one of the best pick and roll players,

in the country, you know, Alex going over to the NBL and just immediately functioning as a professional. And I think that that speaks very highly to just the type of preparation you were putting those guys through. I, you know, I was listening to a podcast you did earlier this year with Kevin O'Connor. And I remember you were talking a lot about the weight room. And like how much, this is kind of a little bit of a detour here, but how much do you think the weight room factors in and young player development? I find it to be super under-emphasize. around the country. And I think that, like, I think you can tell just by your guys as prospects coming out. They're more developed in that regard. You have to be strong to play against grown

men. Is that something you guys emphasize heavily? Oh, yeah, we focus a lot on it. I guys lift. They lift four times a week, sometimes five times a week, and sometimes guys live twice a day, you know, depending on their needs. We try to stress that a lot. A lot of guys come here and very foreign to the weight room. You know, those old myths that people talk about. about how weights throw your shot off and all of that crap. Like, come in here with all of those excuses, but we have a bunch of professionals on our training staff that know better.

And then we have people that have, you know, professional and high-level basketball experience that can speak to those things and have these guys, like call BS on a lot of that stuff. So we have a heavy emphasis on the weight room and getting stronger and understanding. that this is a grind, man, and like your body has to be mature and develop. And then it's injury prevention, right?

Like, because just having a strong body helps all of those things. So there's a heavy emphasis on strength and conditioning in our program and our guys in a weight room every day. Yeah, I got lucky because I was super skinny and I had a stress fracture in my foot between my first two seasons. And so for two months, I had no choice but to just lift. And I put on like 20 pounds of muscle. And when I went into the next season, I was like, oh, my God, everything is so much easier.

Like, it's crazy how much that goes under the radar. I think it's such an important part of development. So one last thing before we start getting into the players, like, talk a little bit about the other benefits you provide for the players. Because I was doing some research. And it seems like you guys have things set up where they can, like we saw with Rob Dillingham, go to college if they're not ready to do something professionally right away. Or they have like scholarship programs available for players who don't decide to go professional. Talk about that a little bit. Well, we, in year one, our only option was to provide guys with what we call professional contracts.

And obviously, at that time, NIO wasn't as prevalent or even really talked about as much. I don't even think it was a thing. And, you know, but those guys had to give up their college eligibility in order for that to happen. After that year one, we were able to work with the NCAA and come up with a scholarship option for our guys. And now we steer guys pretty much away from the pro-contract thing. We want to provide optionality. I think that's our biggest advantage that we have. And then some guys, you know, they still come in and bet on themselves.

And it's hard for us to argue with that. It's hard for us to say, no, don't do that. I mean, if that's what they want to do, that they've discussed with their family, agents, advisors, and all those things, then who are we to stand in the way of that? but, you know, obviously there's rules, right, for the CBA, the collective bargaining agreement. So a guy can come here, like say a Rob Bellingham, his senior year, he could have stayed if he wanted to, done a post-grad year here, and then gone to the draft after that because that's just what the rules are. We have that option for our guys. Some guys that did a post-grad year here and still went to college, they just wanted to be better prepared for that.

A prime example of that would be Trey Parker, who just went to the North Carolina State. So we provide optionality for our guys, a guy like Alex Tsar and Tyler Smith and Ed Don Almanza. Those guys came here on professional contracts, graduated, stayed here and then went on to play in the G League for a year to better prepare for what they're getting ready for now. So there's a lot of different. And Alexar, again, he went to third playing in Australia from here. So I think for us, the flexibility and the optionality, again, is something that gives us a huge advantage in any other place, anywhere else in this space.

Vital because this is the range of age, like between 16 and 20, that's the range where a basketball player's entire destiny is like, you never know what's going to happen. So much can change in a year, you know? And like you can go from being a guy who's a fringe prospect to a bona fide lottery prospect, or vice versa. It makes sense to have that flexibility there for them. So all right, let's get into, let's get into Alexar and Rob Dillingham, Tyler Smith, three really fun prospects in this year's

draft. So Alexar is in contention for the number one overall pick. Why do you think he's deserving of that spot? Well, a couple of reasons. Number one, I'll just say it. I think he's the best prospect in the draft. His size, his versatility, just the things he can do on both sides of the basketball. And, you know, the biggest thing I'd say is that he has all the things that where the NBA is trending, right? Like he has that when Benyama, Porzing is, you know, type of game in that it's super versatile. He has size. He can step out and shoot the three. He can stretch the floor. He can run the floor. He can post up. He's a lot. He's a lot. He's a lot. He's long so he can defend the rim.

I just think he has all the tools to be that. I think he is like the best prospect in the draft and probably the person that has the brightest future and the highest ceiling. Rob, you know, I know we're not getting into Rob yet, but I think

Bob is probably the best score. And probably, well, not even probably, I would adamantly say he's the best, he's the most confident player in the draft. A guy can just score from anywhere on the course. and literally has the shortest term memory of anyone that I've ever met in my life. Missing a shot and it was almost like, forgot about it.

So, you know, those two guys in particular just bring a ton of value to any organization that's going to pick them. But Alex is, to me, without question, that consensus number one pick. And then I think he's the best player in the draft. Well, defensively, he's already awesome. And he projects to defend really well in a bunch of key NBA coverages. And as we know, like, the ability to guard and pick and roll is like absolutely vital in the NBA just because of the level of guard play that we see. But what's fascinating to me is there's so much discussion around him on the offensive end and like whether or not he's going to be able to develop into what a good enough offensive player to be able to play the four potentially if that's what he has to play depending on what kind of team he ends up with.

I'm more optimistic with him mainly just because like you mentioned the direction the game is going. Like so many more of these teams are running five out offense. And in the five-out system, like, ball handling, shooting, just in general, like, the ability to read and react. And just to oversimplify it, to walk and shoe gum as a big is, like, so important in the modern NBA because you're operating in space so much more. The ball's in your hands so much more. And so, like, I actually view him as the kind of like quintessential modern NBA five-out big in the sense that he's comfortable with the ball in his hands. He can run dribble handoffs. he can keep it.

If it's the read there, if his big guy's showing on the other end of the DHO, he can keep the ball and go to the basket. I think I liked some of the reps he was getting in the NBL too with Bryce Cotton getting short roll reps and making passing reads out of that. Like to me, like the offensive development piece will come down to his shooting.

But also, it seems to me by the numbers that he's been making year over year improvement. So talk a little bit about Alex's work ethic and the stuff he's putting in behind the scenes to improve as a shooter. Yeah, he came here as a very young, skinny kid once he got here with us in year one that we were here. And it was just like you could see that he had all the talent. He had the tools.

He had the foundation. It was there. And his brother, I think, Olivier, I think you can credit a lot of, you know, what he is, what he does on the court, his demeanor, his work. You can credit a lot of that to him as well, having him in his life. but Alex had all the tools already. It was just a matter of maturing from a physical standpoint. Because you knew that he would play three, four, maybe some five,

depending on, you know, the team he went to, you know, the offense, the schemes, all of those things. So he knew he had to get better and stronger. So he started lifting twice a day. And then you can tell throughout the season and throughout the time that he was here, once his body started to develop a little more, and he started to get stronger than his aggression level got. better, right? He started to attack the basket more. He started to average more rebounds. He started to post up a lot more. He started to be way more physical on the just, just the offensive end of the floor. He was always good defensively. He was always could move his feet. In fact, we would put him on,

you know, the Thompson twins during, you know, the times that they played each other, even in the finals, you know, that the year he was here. He was the guy that took on that matchup and did a great job at it. So defensively, he was never really lacking. It was just he just needed, you know, to get more physical. And I think he did that once he started to lift a little bit more and put his body, you know, through the test of just trying to build that strength. You know, one of the best decisions that he made, quite frankly, was to go and test those things out in Perth and Australia because it was something that he probably felt like he needed. And there's not a lot of us that would disagree with that. Like he wanted to see how ready that he could be.

And we were bringing in much younger guys the year after that that he left. So for a lot of reasons, it made sense, right? And then I think he went there and still was able to play extremely well, play extremely hard. You know, the physicality caught up. The weight room stuff started to catch up to him. And then, like, that was one of those tests, to be honest, which we were, like, he knew that he had to be physically. strongly strong to play with those guys at their aggression level. So he met them there. And now, you know, he's just going to continue to work that way because he's just a workhorse.

He comes from a great family. You know, he appreciates every opportunity to get better. You can throw constructive criticism his way and it's never going to be something that he's going to be upset with. He takes it well. And he just, he's a tremendous kid. So I think he's just going to be a great asset to anyone who picks him, to be honest. Yeah, not to harp on the weight room thing, but there's another element to it too. It's like confidence. Like when you've been lifting and you walk in the gym, you're like, yeah, I'm big. Like, I can hang with these guys.

You know, like, I could see that that's what causes him to be more aggressive because it's like you just, you just feel like a bigger, stronger man. It gives you the confidence to do that sort of thing. Yeah, the offensive development piece is going to be interesting because like what would be really fascinating is if he did end up functioning more as a wing, like as a four, and you put him next to more of like a bruising center, then like it, it, not only in switching schemes where he's guarding guys on the perimeter. And I'm glad you pointed out him getting reps against the Thompson twins,

because that's kind of the exciting thing with him is like he can really slide his feet. He can slide his feet well and he's got good instincts and he can obviously contest really well with his length. But like putting him next to a big bigger center too, like you can imagine him kind of functioning as the low man in an NBA defense working along the baseline, like grabbing defensive rebounds, helping and pick and roll, closing out the shooters in the corner. Like that's a new thing we've seen in the NBA. Janus has been doing this for the bucks forever. It's like that defender that can like that can block shots at the rim but also like get to

the corner and kind of be in two places at once. It allows you to load up the strong side without leaving anything open. It's such a valuable archetype of player. And that's kind of what I see him being. But let's get let's get one last thing with Alksar before we move on. Do you like his fit with Trey Young? Like if Atlanta were to keep the number one overall pick and take him, do you think he fits well there with him functioning more as like a pick and roll big?

Yeah, I do. I like him functioning with Tray. Tray's a great pick and roll player. So to put a guy like Alex Sar with his versatility, being able to stretch the floor, being able to roll if that pick and roll is switched somehow from whoever's guarding Trey, it just creates so many mismatch opportunity, right? And then, you know, having a guy like Clint Capella down there to protect the rim, only to have Alex, Alexar also helping you protect the rim.

I mean, that's just, it's a lot of room protection in the paint for them for a team that's not very, very, very good on the perimeter defensively, right? And I think that's just invaluable. But him and Trey Young together, like, again, I think it's just, it speaks to the versatility of what you can do with that pick and roll, all the creativity that you can have off of that pick and roll. If Alex is popping, if Trey is dragging his man out, or if Alex rolling it, they decide to switch because so many teams switch picking rolls now. someone's going to have the hell. So I just think with Alex's versatility on the offensive end and the things that he's going to become, what he's going to become offensively,

because you can see it even when in Minyama, from game one to game 82, was a total different victor offensively, right? Like, it was just a matter of reps and confidence and just getting to know the lay of the land in the NBA game. And I think that is what Alex can be. I think there's some correlaries too with Victor playing a year professionally against men and coming over and the same sort of thing with Alex that I think will help.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football,

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators,

and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

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Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of Ton Tons and Wampo on the Ice Planet Hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase

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Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Let's move on to Rob. So, as this super successful season at Kentucky, like, I don't think people realize, like, how rare it is to have a guard be as efficient as he was in pick and roll, like, especially at the car.

college level, because there's a lot of, like, volume scoring guards at that level, but they're usually not super efficient, but like, he just had an awesome season at Kentucky. So tell us a little bit about your experience with Rob Dealingham. And, like, were you surprised by his success at Kentucky at all? No, I was, the biggest thing that surprised me was how well he accepted his role coming off the bench. And, you know, I think Calipari, that was a genius move by him to bring him off the bench and allow Rob to be Rob.

You know, he's not a guy that he probably thought that, like, he couldn't put him in the starting lineup with all of that, right? And he'd still be able to be him. But having a guy like Rob be your first player off the bench that just, it makes your team deeper, right? And, you know, Henry Sheppard running that second unit, it just, it may be lethal. Actually, surprising that they didn't, you know, go further in the tournament. That's a whole other story. that dude from Oakland hitting all those threes. I think he was great.

I think when he came here. I don't know if Rob would have accepted that role as well as he did had he not come to OTE first. I just don't know if he would have. He may have, but I don't think he would have. And I think that speaks to the development piece that we do here. And it's like we were able to show Rob and kind of tame like the inefficiency, right, and help him to be more efficient. And then I think once he saw that and once he start believing that,

then he just became a different animal. Because you get a guy with that talent, that type of confidence, that type of shot, making an ability to also now be efficient in that, then it just makes you that much more dangerous. And I think that's what he turned into at Kentucky. And like I said earlier, he's probably the most confident player right now in the draft. Like Rob probably feels like he's, you know, I'm sure he feels like he should go number one, right? That would not surprise me at all.

So I'm very happy and excited for him too. Yeah, the role that he had at Kentucky is interesting to me because, ironically, the player that he reminds me the most of when I watch him is Malik Monk in the sense that it's a lot of like start, start, stop, quickness, like really quick first step, deceptively, super explosive to. He doesn't quite have the length that Malik had, but his play style kind of reminds me a lot of him. And we've seen Malik turn into a super useful NBA player in a role in Sacramento where he kind of functions as the sixth man, but then we'll also close games most of the time just simply because like that dual dribble penetration of Deer and Fox and him just kind of makes everything work. And I mean, we've seen, there's no shame in that type of role. I mean, he's getting rewarded too.

And his deal is viewed generally as a discount around the league, and it's 20 million a year. You know what I mean? So like that there's real value in that type of player. I think one of the things, too, is just that I think there's, it's rare to find a combination of real downhill, like, beat people off their dribble quickness and lethal pull-up shooting. Like most of the time you find one or the other, like this dude's a great pull-up shooter, but just can't really beat people off the dribble. Or this guy's great at beating people off the dribble, but he's got to,

suspect jump shot. And so that combination, I think those two things together are going to be really valuable. And then also, like, he was one of the deadliest spot-up players in the league last year. Like that guy attacking closeouts, hitting threes off, the move off to catch. Like, he just has a real, like, kind of microwave offensive potential. And so let's just put it this way. Do you see his role in the NBA as being like a Malik Monk, kind of like hybrid, sixth man, fifth closer, or do you think he has the potential to play like a bigger role as more of like a starting point guard

for an NBA team? I think that depends on what team he goes to, right? Like, it's just, I've been hearing a lot about the Spurs and that thing. You know, they have some really good guards already there from what I watched this season. But I think also Great Popovich would be tremendous for Rob, right, because of his basketball mind and expertise

and just overall knowledge of the game. I think Rob is more, like you said, that Malik Munk, you know, Lou Will, Jamal Crawford type of guy who can be your immediate six man, like a fifth starter, you know, a six starter, rather, and then like someone that can be in the game

in the fourth quarter to help close. Like he's just that good offensively. I mean, you can't leave him open. You know, he's not a liability on offense. you know, he plays out of pick and roll. He can handle the ball when the team is pressing up the court. He makes free throws late in the game. I mean, I wouldn't have him on the bench in the fourth quarter.

Like, if I was coaching the team, like, he certainly would be a valuable asset to any team that he goes to. But certainly, that six-man role, and again, that sixth starter is someone to me who robbed. That's him. That's who he is. Well, and to your point, there's a reason why you do that. It's because at the beginning of the game, when, let's say, like, let's just take the Kings, for example, like, they're flowing through Sabonis and Fox. And, you know, Kegan Murray and Kevin Herder. And, like, generally speaking, it makes sense for Malik to come in with that second unit. And now he's running the show and he's being super aggressive.

And then you can make a call at the end of the game if it makes sense for him to be out there. Like, that legitimately is a very common NBA. role at this point. Like how you start a game and how you finish a game are very different things. As far as the Spurs fit goes, I find it super fascinating just because like, so like the downside, there's a couple downsides with Rob, right? He's a little undersized. And then there's the talk about his playmaking, which I want to get to in a minute. But with with his size, one of the things with the NBA now is like a lot of the defensive guard position is about chasing over the top of screens and kind of just being a pest, which I actually think

he can do pretty well. And what's fascinating about him with Wembenyama is like, to your point, like when you have that kind of length on the backside, it's like you were talking about the Hawks. Like they have this weak perimeter personnel, but they've got, what if they had like a too big look with all the size on the backside? Like I think, I think that a guy like Victor Wembenyama would give Rob Dillingham the best opportunity to be a functional defender because everyone talks about defense on an island. It's not on an island. It's a five-man job. And so if you can create a role for him within a five-man defensive job, he can be successful. So do you agree with me? Do you think that Rob could be a successful defender at the NBA level?

I do. I mean, like, listen, he's going to be tested, right? Because every, everyone is, especially a guy that with his size or lack thereof, like, he's going to be tested. He's going to have to guard some of the most skilled guards in the league, you know, because that's just what he's going to fall into. And even if they're not some of the top guards in the league, like there's not a guy in the NBA that's playing major minutes. That's just a bad player. They have to guard somebody. And even if even if you're not even assigned to guard,

a guy that gets the ball a lot or a guy that's known to make plays. For instance, if he's guarding one night, he has a guard. They put him on PJ Tucker to try to quote unquote hide him. And that's no knock on PJ. People just don't run plays for PJ. right? So if you put him on, say, a PJ Tucker, like, those guards are going to find you. That coach for that team is going to find you. They're going to run some sets to have PJ come set up a screen to make you switch onto, you know, a ball handling, you know, premier showcase guard. Like, that's just what it is. However, if you have a guy like when Mignonana behind you at the rim, like you have more confidence in your ability to be able to just kind of pressure the ball a little bit and more knowing that he's your security blanket. And, you know, and besides that, since we're talking Spurs, like, the Spurs have never been a horrible defensive team. Like, they play defense.

The foundation of what they're done and what they have been successful at is defense and ball movement. And so those two, you know, that's, if all those things are working well together, like, he's not going to be a guy that just constantly getting picked on. And even if he is, again, like, you have a seven-foot, whatever unicorn standing behind you. at the rim who loves blocking shots. So, and not many people challenge him. We saw that last year. So guys almost have a layup and just decided, now I'm going to just dribble this back out on the other side.

So I think he'll be fine in that system. I think he'll be fine in any system. But I do believe the team that drafts him has to have some type of, you know, solid defensive foundation already, some guys who can guard and some rim protection. Because you're going to ask him to handle the ball a lot, you know and make plays offensively you know and he's not the greatest defensive in the player in the world but I think he's he's good enough to be able to guard guys in space and

keep guys in front of them for you know more than three to four seconds he's active and he's quick and so like there's the ball pressure element like when you when you when you're pressure in the ball the risk is dribble penetration right but when you have victor behind you you can kind of account for that and then the other thing too is like their scheme set up for this sort of thing like they couldn't do it with Luca. I found this fascinating in the Mavs playoff run because like they couldn't hedge and recover with Luca because Luca was too slow, right? So like the shooter would just get open in that sort of action, right?

So like, especially in the Boston series, they were just cooking Luca by putting him in space. But like Rob is fast. So like Rob could throw a hedge and get back to a shooter and throw a good close out. You know what I mean? So like his quickness and his activity, I think will allow him to be a functioning part. Again, like to your point, never going to be like a lockdown. you know, premier, like, that's his job as to be a defensive player. No, but like, can he be a functioning part of an NBA defense? I think he's capable of it. It's just going to be a question

of whether or not he can build that out. So last piece, before we move on to Tyler Smith. The, the second big kind of, like, criticism with Rob was just his willingness to function as a playmaker. And we saw a big leap in that department as he went to Kentucky, just his willingness to make reads and ball screens and to trust his teammates and things like that. How was that part of his development when he was with overtime elite? I mean, listen, man, some guys aren't built to pass. That's the truth. Like, I mean, like, you don't bring to Rob Dillingham in to lead your team and assists.

Like, that's just not who he is. You know, my uncle, you know, right, Dominique Wilkins, he wasn't, they didn't pay him to pass. And like, they didn't pay Michael Jordan to lead the team and assist. It's just some guys that just, like, even you take out, even a Malik Munk. Like, he didn't, he's not getting a new $78 million contract right now because of his passing ability. And I think, like, what we do too often is we try to find things that we can criticize people on and say, well, we want, he's not a playmaker. He doesn't get enough assist,

but Rob makes the right plays. But Rob is also, like, everyone knows who Rob is. He's a scoring guard. You know, I mean, I haven't checked stats recently, but I don't know if Step Curry leads to Golden State and assist. And, you know, he's still a hell of a playmaker, right? I think it's Draymond, if anyone.

Like, I don't know for sure, but I'd have to check it. But, I mean, it's just some guys who, like, you have to live with you. who they are and hope that they get better as time goes on at things that you want them to get better. Rob is going to always make the right play, but Rob is also going to be the first option in Rob's mind. He's coming off a screen looking to score.

And if you work with any trainers or basketball, if you talk to any basketball players anywhere, like the first thing that people tell you in a pick and roll is, hey, you're the first option. They go under that screen. That's a shot. They get trailing your screen, get downhill and get to the basket. If someone steps up past, like, mind you, just in that thing that I just described to you, the third thing I said was pass. You know what I? So, like, it's not a lot of, like, Rob is going to be Rob. Robb is going to make the right play. He's going to always read, I don't make the right read. And if someone is open, he's going to give him the ball. But in Rob's mind, and I think in anyone who, and anyone who drafts him knows that in his mind,

he's the first option when he has the ball because that's what you bring a Rob Dillingham in for. That's what you bring a Jamal Crawford to your team for. That's what you bring a Lou Will to your team for. Not them say that those guys don't ever pass the ball because they did. However, they passed the ball when they drew two people on them, right? Like you're supposed to.

You've done your job. I have two people on the ball. Now I can pass it. I did my job. If it's me and you and I'm coaching, I like all three of those guys that I just name to take the shot or to make the play. Yeah, I'm 100% agree with you. Like, if you're a score or you're a score, that is an important archetype of NBA player. Like I don't want Kevin Durant to just go out there and try to be LeBron.

I don't want him to do that. I want him to go out there and shoot the damn basketball, right? And like, honestly, the way you put it is perfect. It's more about just making reads in the sense that like one of the most common coverages we're seeing the NBA now is that high drop coverage. where they bring the big up to the level and they bring the low man over. And so there's either a pocket pass or a skip pass. And as long as he can get good at making that specific read, then he can function and pick and roll and find openings for himself.

But the point is, is like if you shoot 44% from three and you get a look at it, we want you shooting the damn ball. We want you shooting because that's worth more points than us to driving and kicking to a lesser shooter. Like that you need that alpha dog confidence. You need that unwavering faith in your game. and like, yeah, I agree with you.

There's a mandatory minimum amount of like being able to make the reads that you have to have, but I want to score to be a score. All right. So we're going to move on to Tyler Smith. I find him to be a super fascinating player because he's kind of like a tweener in the sense that he's like he's kind of like a little bit of an undersized big, but he's kind of like a bigger forward. But I, he's got like some legit face up game.

He's good at like understanding angles and the, uh, the pivots to get like easy hook shots and little finger rolls around the bass. Kind of kind of reminds me of some of your face-up game back when you were playing, too, to be honest. But, like, I find him to be a fascinating player because in the modern NBA, like we talked about earlier, you kind of have these two bigs that are functioning as dribble handoff guys on both sides of the floor. You get a lot of switches.

And having a big guy that can, like, take a smaller player down to the block and get a bucket is actually a huge advantage in order to, like, it's a coverage beater. In a switch, if you have the small guard go onto the screener, you, you know, you, need him to go get a bucket. And so tell us a little bit about Tyler Smith and how you see him functioning as an NBA player. I think Tyler can be just as good as Michael Porter Jr. And I think he's a guy that can play some small ball four. I think he can play three. And I also think depending on the matchup that you can put him at too, he can handle the ball, he can shoot the ball. Again, he's a versatile guy who's just super long. He shoots the ball at a high clip.

And he can make plays when he has the ball. Like he rebounds and pushes. You know, you can't just leave him open to, you know, to force him to miss shots. He's not going to do that very often. I thought he shot the ball very well to ignite. He shot the ball extremely well and finished up here, shooting the ball very well before he left. But Tyler has just continues to get better.

He's one of those guys, too, that needed the weight room. And you can tell now that since he's been, getting in and out of the weight room, his game is just kind of starting to blossom a little bit, and he's starting to find his aggression level. Speaking of Sacramento, like, that's the team I like him to go to, because I would love to see him playing with those guys and maybe him sometime at the four with Sabonis at the five. You know, you've got a guy who can bring those fours out of the paint, but also athletic enough to run with that team.

Or you can bring him into the second unit with him a league monk. and have him and Malik kind of just be the premier guys within that offense. Like, he's just a cerebral, versatile guy who really is like a plug-and-play type of player because he just has all those things. He's a jack of so many trades. And I'm super excited to see where he goes and lands because I think he's one of the guys that I would call a sleeper in the draft. Well, that's the fun part about going in the late first round

is you're going to go to a more developed team. And you're going to be given a small role that you can achieve. even. It's always more fun to see that the draft prospects that kind of get an opportunity to go somewhere where they're on national TV more often and they're playing in bigger games. And that's how you get, you know, Keegan Murray and those guys getting those opportunities. Yeah, I was interesting. Speaking of those guys, too, like, I think this draft is full of those type of guys, the Keegan Murray's, the Jaden, you know, McDaniels, the PJ Washington's of the world,

the Derek White's, the Drew holidays, like guys that can come in and like the immediate And, you know, guys who can help you win big games, not just regular season games, but help you win big games. Like, you saw that, like, these playoffs that we just witnessed was, it was role players galore. Like, a lot of the stars, yeah, they showed up. But, like, really, like, those guys are not just named, the guys that was, like, helping teams win, you know, big games.

And I think that's what this draft has a lot of. And I think that's what in particular that Tyler Smith, can be. Yeah, this, this draft doesn't have the major splashy, like, oh my gosh, just one of the greatest prospects in the history of basketball type of thing going on. But to your point, like, those those fringe guys, those guys that just are really high level role players, they almost always end up being swing factors. Like, we see playoff series swing on the third or fourth best player on the team all the time. You know what I mean? It's just so vitally important. I mean, you mentioned Michael Porter Jr. earlier. I root for the Lakers. I got sick

at watching him make every damn shot. He took in that damn series of the first round, right? Why don't so many people hate when he makes shots? Oh, my gosh, man. I was so annoyed when he was missing against Minnesota. So I thought it was fascinating, because when I was watching the film on Tyler Smith, he was getting pushed off his spot a little bit.

So he's been putting in a lot of work behind the scenes to bulk up? Yes, he has. He has been in the wait room with a lot of. I think that's been one of his biggest emphasis over the summer. And I know it was when in his last year here, you know, trying to be stronger, getting stronger, being able to not being pushed off his spot when he's attacked the basket, not being bumped off his drive, things of that nature, because he's going to have to be a guy who can score at four levels with his size, his versatility, his footwork and handle.

He's a guy that, like, they're going to rely on him. I believe people are going to rely on him. and asks of him to be able to be a guy that can score at the rim, scored the free throw line, scored in the mid-range and post, and then also shoot three. So the weight room is going to be very vital to his development. I continue telling him that.

I hope he's listening. I heard he was. For his sake, I think he'll get it. I believe so as well. And again, like his archetype, which is kind of like that matchup attacking forward that can also shoot the ball, I think is one of the most valuable archetypes

that we see around the league right now. And I think that there's a lot of opportunity for guys like him to make good money in the league if they put the work in behind the scenes. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

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Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the look back at it, podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it.

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This is something that's been really fascinating to me over the course the last couple of years, and you are very deeply entrenched in in player development here in the U.S. And obviously you've worked with players from overseas as well. But as we know, if we were ranking the top players in the league right now, you're probably going Yokich one.

You're probably putting Luca up there. You're putting Yonis up there. You're putting, like the American guys that are up there like Tatum, you know, Anthony Edwards is on the rise, but I'm not sure he's there yet. And then there's this KD. LeBron Steff group, which is kind of tailing out. So let me just, let's start here, actually.

Do you agree that the majority of the top players in the league are from overseas, or do you think the American players are underrated right now? That's a really good question. I mean, just if I think about who I think the top players in the NBA are right now, I mean, to me, Luca is arguably the best player in the league, right? like Joker followed by, you know, I'd say Joker, but like, that's two guys. You know, and then like in no particular order, I got to throw Jalen Brown in there, Anthony Edwards in there.

I got to throw LeBron in there. I got to throw Steph in there. I got to throw KD in there. I got to throw Devin Booker in there. I got to, you know, throw, I mean, shoot, you got Janice, too. I mean, but he's not even like, I mean, I just, I still think you got to go through us, but I do believe that, you know, international basketball players have gotten exponentially better. And quite frankly, like, that has a lot to do with how they've come up. Like,

Luca has been a pro since he was 14, you know, and, you know, he's been playing with grown men, you know, since he was, you know, before he could drive. And that system, that, that, that, that ecosystem that they're in and the way that they go about doing it is similar to how we do things here at OTE. It's basketball, basketball, basketball, and everything else. That's not to mention, that's not to say that all the things that's everything else are less important, right, because academics are important, right? Like, those things are important. However, it's like, let's be efficient with it. And I think that's what we've done. We've kind of, you know, copied that model in a sense, right? Like, they're like, let's just,

cut out all the fluff, focus on the most important things that are the everything else, but focus on basketball. You go to a regular high school here in America, as you know, it's like you're in school for eight hours a day. You're sitting in classes and half of those classes you're not even going to need or use the stuff from it, right? That's the first thing. And then, you know, you get out of school and you can't use the gym because the volleyball team is, it's their season, you know, or wrestling or, you know, wrestling. you know, cheerleading or whatever the case may be. So you don't have access to a gym.

And by the time you do get access to a gym, your brain is fried. And so it's mind and your body is just tired. So you don't, you may not work as hard that day as you would in a normal day where you have access to a gym. Us, we give our guys access to a gym until about midnight, you know, and their focus is on basketball, player development, getting bigger, getting stronger, getting faster, all of those things. most of their day is that's taken up of those things. So I think the international players, I don't think it's that they just,

it's just more talent over there. There is a lot of talent internationally. And I respect and appreciate that talent, but I also think they just have a system that's caught up to us now because they like that system, now you're starting to see that that system has worked. Right? Like Luca at 14 wouldn't have been Luca who he is now.

him at 14, he just stayed in that type of system every day those years prior to coming over here. And you're just seeing the, I guess the benefits of that work that he put in back then. Right. Like he was built to play professional basketball. Like he was prepared for it at such a young age. And I think that's the model that we're using. We're preparing our guys to be leaps and bounds. above the rest of the guys is coming in.

Even in college, like, you get 20 hours a week or something like that. Prior to the season start, we have no cap on, you know, the work or the time that our guys can put in in our building, right? Like, you can go with, like, you're at 20 hours by Wednesday. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's just a matter of the time that you get to put in. Those guys aren't internationally just born, right? Luca Donchitz, they work that. They work to become that.

Like, obviously, yeah, God sprinkled a little extra on him. They work to be that. Can you imagine Anthony Edwards in an OTE system from the time that he was a freshman? I mean, he was already a monster as a high school player. Oh, body developed, super athletic, strong, super talented, but you take all of that and you give our system to that

and you mix his skill level with that. I mean, he would be leaps and bounds above how good he is right now. So I just think it's a matter of accessibility, and I think it's a matter of just the opportunity and the time that you have to work on your game. But the international game is certainly on the way. I looked at the teams.

They showed the graphic, ESPN, show the graphic of the teams on social media of like the Olympic teams. And, like, there's so many NBA guys on different Olympic teams that it's like, sheesh, like this is going to be, it's going to be a tough, you know, Olympic run for our team. But then I look at our team and I'm like, our team is ridiculous.

USA team is stacked. So it's like you have to beat all 12 of those guys, you know, whereas Canada has three guys from the NBA. Like, of course, they probably have some other guys that are just are good, I'm sure. But, you know, in terms of pinnacle of basketball, they have. I think it's three guys. Like, you know, you got Shea, you got Jamal Murray. Mall Murray, you have

RJ Barrett. Dylan Brooks, I think is with that. Dylan Brooks. Four guys, Dylan Brooks. That's four guys, right? One of them is one and a half superstars. You have Shay who's come

on his way to be in that. And then, you know, Jamal Murray, who is Mr. Playoffs. You know, those other two guys, they're their NBA role players. And I have a ton of respect for both of their games. But like our team has 12 legitimate stars. You know what I mean?

It's like, that's going to be hard to be. So I think we, we're certainly right there. And I think, I think still in the conversation as, as the best. But the international guys are certainly, you know, neck and neck with us.

And they figured out the platform, to be able to get themselves or make themselves, you know, extremely prepared for NBA basketball. Yeah, I think there's still a massive gap between the U.S. and all of the other countries individually. But I do think you could say U.S. versus the world has gotten close, if not the world, has taken over because of those top guys. That gap. That gap isn't as wide anymore. Yeah. And I'm actually really glad I asked you because you brought up something that I hadn't even thought about, which is just like availability of resources.

Because I coach at the high school level here in Tucson, getting the gym is such a pain in the ass. Like just getting access to the gym is such a pain. And like most of the time I have to go up there super early in the morning and ask the kids to come in before school to get extra skill reps in because you're fighting with the volleyball team or whoever it is. Even the football team now in Arizona because it's so hot here in Arizona. The football team will use the gym for their walkthroughs.

I'm like, what are we even doing here? I think these are basketball courts. So there's definitely. something to be said about Luca from age 14 being in a professional program and just like learning how to play as a professional through that entire process. And it just accelerates the entire thing. And I mean, to put it even further, like, I agree with you in the sense that I think the U.S. is bad. And hopefully overtime elite will help address this problem. But like we're bad at like identifying who our prodigies are and like pulling them out of that stupid high school system and putting them in

to a more defined professional basketball type of system? Because that's the thing. It's not about the prospect here. Overseas or internationally, it's about the prospect. And it's about what's best for the prospect. Here, it's about what's best for the agent, the parent, the advisor, the coach, and everyone that's around them, right? Internationally, it's selfless.

They're like, no, go represent us. Right? Here, we're like, no. I have to keep you with me so I can get something out of that. Like, and too often, that's, I think that's what we do. Like, it's teams that we try to schedule to play us here at OTE that won't play us because their coaches are saying to us, we can't bring our players in you guys building because they're going to like it too much and then we'll lose them. Well, you want the player, what does it matter?

What if it's better for the kid? Yeah. But if it's better for the kid, exactly, because I think, I feel like it, Duke called said coach and said, hey, we have a head coaching job for you right now. You can be the head coach of Duke University. That coach wouldn't hesitate to take that deal or take that offer. But that's the thing. We act like as if we own players here.

Like, no, it's my player. So he has to do everything with me so I can get something out of it as opposed to, like, Lucas, Slovenia, they're like, no, go represent us. Go be the best player in the NBA. Go compete for that. So we can be proud of that, right? And that's a large piece to it that I just never will be able to wrap my hands around. My son, for instance, right?

He's just turned 16 years old. A freshman. He's here at OTE and just finished up his first year here at OTE and ended up being a starter for half the season in all of the playoffs. youngest guy that we've ever had start in OTE. Like, I could have easily been like, no, I want you to stay in normal high school and be the man and get all this notoriety and attention and all of that.

But like, no, like, let's delay all that, do what's best for you now. So then by the time, like, you can, you'll get exponentially better here competing against these guys every day. And then by the time you're a senior, you know, the show could be yours. So, like, that's the same. selflessness, right? It's like, give up, give up that instant thing or that, that big fish,

small pond mentality and go be a part of something bigger that can help you in turn be a whole lot more better. Yeah, and you got to learn how to play with and against really good basketball players. And so, like, putting them in an environment like that, that's the advantage with Luca going and playing with pros at 14. Because if you had to, for me, like, I find it fascinating because I think our skill development in the U.S. is great. Like, we are obsessed. with skill development. We produce so many guys who can dribble and shoot at a high level. But I think the ability to play with people is lacking a little bit in our American basketball player development because of that. Like guys run off to their AAU team and average 35 points

a game on 25 shots a game and they don't know how to play alongside other really good players. Like you have to, you have to be able to function next to good players because that's what Division I basketball is like. That is what playing overseas is like. That is what playing in the NBA is like. And I could sit here and complain about AAU basketball and different things like that all day long, but I'm going to save your time. Damien, I sincerely appreciate you taking the time

to come hang out with us for a little bit. Is there anything else you wanted to shout out before we got out of here today? No, just, man, just excited for our guys, our OTE alumni that's up in a couple days. I'm just super excited for those guys and looking forward to seeing, you know, where they vote, you know, and how well, just ready to go.

Yeah, we're going to know a lot more here in a couple of days. I can't believe it's right around the corner. It feels like the finals just ended. All right, that's all we have for today. Damien, thanks again for coming to hang out. That's all we got, guys. We're going to be back tomorrow morning with Sam Vesini from the Athletic to look at the rest of the first round of the NBA draft.

I will see you guys then. The volume. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

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with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.