The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - NBA Finals Mailbag: Can Luka and the Mavs come back from 3-1 down???

Episode Date: June 15, 2024

Jason Timpf gives his overall thoughts on a blowout win for Luka Doncic, Kyrie Irving and the Dallas Mavericks in a must-win game 4 in Dallas. He provides his assessment of Luka’s huge game, what the path to victory looks like for Dallas, and what Boston needs to change going forward.  3:00 - Game 4 assessment 7:45 - Luka’s performance in game 4 16:15 - Derrick Lively was clutch for Dallas 18:15 - What Boston needs to change going forward MAILBAG 25:00 - Is Derrick White the best role player in the league? 28:00 - Should Porzingis play in game 5? 31:00 - How do the Warriors become contenders next year? 40:00 - Who would you favor in a hypothetical game 6 in Dallas? 46:00 - Is Luka a younger James Harden? 48:00 - Thoughts on Luka/Carmelo comp made by Colin Cowherd? 52:00 - 2020 Lakers or 2024 Celtics? 55:00 - Did Joe Mazulla crack the code for stopping Luka? #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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All right, welcome to Hoops tonight here at The Volume. Happy Friday, everybody. This NBA Finals game four instant reaction is brought to you by Chase Freedom Unlimited. How do you cash back? Well, you can't fake desperation. The Boston Celtics run into an absolute buzzsaw in game four against the Dallas Mavericks. here's the plan for tonight. I got about 10, 15 minutes off the top. Not too much to get into a game like this that goes off the rails so quickly. So what we're going to do at the tail end

is just do a mailback. So drop questions in the chat. Paul, our producer is going to text them to me so we can hit them at the tail end of the show. Drop questions in the chat. We'll go for about 10 minutes on the game and then we'll get into the mailbag. You guys know the drill before we get started. Subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. follow me on Twitter at underscore Jason LT so you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast feed wherever you get your podcast under hoops tonight and then keep dropping mailback questions in those YouTube comments so that we keep hitting them over the course of the rest of the summer.

All right, let's talk some basketball. So story of this game was obviously Dallas's improved defensive effort. Now, Dallas has defended pretty well in this series, not as well as they're capable of, not as well as the numbers would show either. there's a couple of pretty bad, like specifically inept Boston stretches, particularly spamming the second and third quarters of game one. And then obviously that bad run in the middle of the fourth quarter in game three. And then there's also some shooting variants there.

But Dallas has done a decent job. But we all can agree that they are capable of doing a much, much better job. And there's been a lot of focus on the dribble penetration element in containing the basketball. A lot of that on this show as well. and I want to make sure we call attention to that, but I thought that Dallas did an amazing job in all four phases of half-court defense in this game. I would kind of delineate the roles of a defense or the four parts of the defensive job down to these things.

First, containing the ball. Second, what you do in rotation, meaning like when you suffer some sort of defensive breakdown, whether it's a coverage-related thing or some dribble penetration, and how do you kind of like on the fly go from the next matchup to the next matchup in your rotation to try to regain control of the situation. It's like with the fire extinguisher, trying to put out whatever the problem is, right? The third piece of it is contesting without fouling, and the fourth piece of it is the defensive rebound.

And all of them are actually connected to each other. But that ball contained piece is what we're going to start with, because all of those other three become easier when you do a better job containing the basketball. So to put it simply, I talk a lot about on this show the concept of flattening out drives. What that means is there's going to be a certain amount of dribble penetration that you can't control, whether it's pushing the pace and transition, whether it's you're just dealing with freaky athletes. You don't go into a series against Anthony Edwards thinking, like, we're just going to completely stop him from beating anybody off the dribble. It's like, no, that's not how it works, right?

So at a certain point, what you're trying to do is turn a straight line drive into a rounded off drive. You're trying to turn a straight line drive into something where there's contact that he has to fight through or he has to make a counter move. So it's easier for that next help defender to get into place. And when you do a better job of that, when you flatten out drives, suddenly what could be a hard help turns into maybe a dig down. So for instance, like let's imagine that a guy is dribbling on the left wing and he makes an aggressive move towards the, let's just say towards the left side, towards the sideline because the defense. kind of funneling him that way, and he gets just absolutely toasted off the dribble. Then the next guy, the low man out of that weak side corner, has to come all the way over in hard help. And it turns into like a super easy kickout pass to the corner. If they rotate,

it's a easy kickout pass to the wing, right? But if you flatten out the drive, then instead of that guy having to hard help, maybe he sinks in a little bit, maybe he stunts, but he's in a better position to rotate. All of a sudden, that close out is a little little bit easier, right? Or the next guy who's up on the wing doesn't have to sink all the way down to the corner and maybe he's just kind of stunting down, right? Like that job gets easier. The contesting without fouling piece, when you actually contain the ball and then do a good job in rotation, the last piece of it is eventually someone's going to be looking up at the clock and it's like, we just tried this drive and this drive and this drive and this driving, oh shit, there's four seconds

on the shot clock. One of us has to shoot. From there, you're going to be in a position. And it's where that guy's probably going to have to take a tough contested either shot at the rim, shot in mid-range, or catch-and-shoot three, right? That contesting without fouling piece is easier when you do a better job containing the ball throughout the possession. And then finally, the defensive rebound. I was looking at the stats at the end of the third quarter when we started getting ready for the show.

When I checked, I think Boston only had two offensive rebounds. They only had like 11 free throw attempts. So that's a clear sign of you contesting without fouling and getting the defensive rebound. Now, think of it like this. If you get toasted off the dribble and somebody has to hard help and now everyone's in rotation, nobody's matched up. If nobody's matched up, then when the shot goes up, it gets that much harder to box out because now everyone's caught in that blender and no one has a clear matchup to box out. But if you flatten out the drive and you make your rotations easier and you do a good job in those rotations and you work deep into the clock and the guy has to settle for some tougher contested jump shot, everyone is matched up. Now all of a sudden there aren't these like free runs to the rim from a wide open guy because his defender got pulled into rotation elsewhere. Everything water falls down from containing the basketball.

But I want to be clear, they did an amazing job in all four of those areas. is. I want to turn my attention to Luca for just a minute because I want to be clear because there's been a lot of criticism directed towards Luca in this series, including for myself, and I believe it's fair. I believe the criticism of some of the whining at the officials, the stuff with his effort, focus, and energy on the defensive end is completely fair criticism. And by the way, you want to know why? Ask a Dallas Mavericks fan. What do you think of Luca? 99% of them are going to tell you he's the best player in the world. 99% of them are going to tell you he's an all-time great in the making.

99% of them are going to tell you he's better than this guy, that guy, and this guy, and that guy at that phase of their careers. What that means is he's held to a different standard. He's not held to the standard of, you know, let's say a 40-year-old LeBron James, who's on the tail end of his prime, and it's like he's not being held to that best player in the world standard. You understand when 40-year-old LeBron takes a random possession off here or there. You understand when you see a player that's not considered one of the top-tier apex predators in the league making them a lackadaisical effort or something like that. You just kind of just allow it, right? You don't even think that much about it. Luca has put himself through by virtue of his greatness under a microscope.

That's just, that's the, it's that old expression, right? heavy, it looks like heavy is the head that wears the crown, right? Like there is a pressure and an expectation that comes from his individual greatness. I want to be clear, he's not why they're down, three one in this series. He is the reason why they're here, as so many have been saying. That is, that, that, that, I want to be clear. He, his indomitable offensive greatness got them to this point. However, it is unquestionable that this series had a better chance to be

competitive had Luca given a better effort to this point. And again, as I talked about, like, there was so much focus on the blowbys and he still got beat off the dribble a couple of times tonight. But as I said, like, that is nowhere near as damaging as not doing your job. When the highlight clip was going around, you guys remember after, I think it was after game two, the highlight clip that was going around of Luca getting blown by. And it was like the most blowbys in over 10 years of NBA finals history, right? If you guys remember that video, a lot of Mavericks fans were saying things like, this is by design. This is what we do. We funnel, Lucas' job is to funnel guys into the paint. Now, that's obviously ridiculous. However,

I guarantee you that Jason Kidd is prepared for that. Lucas's job is to do a better job containing the basketball. He needs to compete better on the perimeter. That goes without saying. But there is some truth to the fact that when Jason Kidd is sitting down with his assistant coaching staff and they're coming up with the game plan, they're sitting there like, Luca's going to give up a certain amount of dribble penetration. How do we deal with this? Well, there's obviously the backline element. That's the other four players,

but they've crafted a job for Luca. His job after he gets beat off the dribble is to make the next rotation. That was something that was missing in the first three games of this series. There was a specific play tonight that I thought encapsulated Luca doing that job in a much better way. Luca gets beat off the dribble by Jason Tatum in the left corner. And in the sequence, the ball gets worked, driven and kicked over to the right corner. There's another drive.

There's a drop off to Jason Tatum in the dunker spot in the right side. Luca had gotten thrown into the blender with everybody else, but he made an extra rotation. He came across the lane at the last second, jumped up with verticality, contested Tatum at the rim, and forced to miss. That is the important part of the defense. As I said in the mailbag episode yesterday, the blowbys are the least concerning thing with Luca. You want him to do better, and he did a much better job of containing the basketball tonight.

Forced a bunch of turnovers by just applying some physical ball pressure. Luca was much better on the ball. But the more important piece is making sure he's back in transition defense after giving up any sort of dribble penetration, or if a teammate gives up dribble penetration, being in the right spot in the rotation, and then making those efforts on the defensive glass. That is what it takes to run a functional defense. Every single offensively limited star, or excuse me, I should say defensively limited star,

whether it's Steph Curry in the mid-2010s or it's Luca Donchich and Nicola Yokic in this era, they are still just asked to do a job. Okay, Yokic, you struggle to protect the rim. Here's what we need you to do. We need you to come up to the level of the screen, be active with your hands and be more of a disruptor. we'll put more of the rim protection responsibility on Aaron Gordon.

As long as you do those things up at the level and you get back into the lane to grab defensive rebounds, we can as a team put together a functional defense. And again, that was all that we were asking for from Luca. We know he's the reason why they're here. We know he's an apex superstar. We know he's on an all-time great trajectory. That shit he did in the first three games was not good enough. it was not good enough.

It wasn't befitting of his reputation in the league. And what you saw tonight was much more in line with what he's capable of, which is, yeah, he's going to get beat off the dribble sometimes, but he can do his job within the defensive scheme. And I thought he did a beautiful job of that tonight. In addition to him and Tyree completely dominating the game offensively, they pour in 50 points through the first three quarters, shot 50% from the field, only two turnovers between the two of them combined.

You've got their best and most efficient offensive game of the series. By far their best defensive game of the series, they soundly outplay Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown. And by the way, I want to be clear about something else from the beginning of this game. There was an effort element. We're going to get into that. You'd be foolish to not pretend that's not a factor here. However, I did think especially early in the game,

Tatum and Brown were trying to get downhill. There were several plays where Mavericks made defensive slides to cut off driving angles and Tatum and Brown were being really persistent about trying to beat that guy off the dribble. Dallas was just doing a good job of flattening them out. So like it wasn't for, it wasn't like Boston was just passing the ball around the perimeter and just trying to jack up threes. Boston was trying to get dribble penetration in this game. It was the desperate effort from Dallas that, that rejected those attempts.

And again, it starts from your superstar. It trickles down. Another guy I really want to shout out tonight is Derek lively. at the end of the third quarter, he had 11 points and 12 rebounds in just 22 minutes of play. He had seven offensive rebounds, just an athletic wrecking ball in this game.

He was really intrigued by that corner three he hit early on. One of the things with lively, I tweet this out during the game, but like the, when I look at Dallas's potential, and like here's the thing, do I think they're going to be back in the finals next year?

Probably not, but that's literally because of what NBA history tells us. right? Like we have not had a Western Conference team make more than one trip to the finals in the totality of the last six years since Kevin Durant and Steph Curry broke up as teammates, right? So like that's just the West is too deep with teams. Chances are we'll be sitting here exactly 12 months from now talking about a team like the Minnesota Timberwolves or the Oklahoma City Thunder or the Memphis Grizzly, just some random team that just kind of rises from the midst, right? But if there is a dominant version of this Dallas Mavericks team that takes shape over the course of the next few years, there's your guy. It's Derek Lively.

If Derek Lively turns into Isson Chandler crossed with like a little bit of Anthony Davis crossed with a little bit of like legitimate like can shoot corner threes and stretch the floor a little bit. That's a top 30, top 35 player in the NBA that can be a profoundly impactful foundational piece alongside Luca and whoever is second. secondary star is in the long run, whether it's Kyrie or it's someone else. And like, just, I mean, kind of removing ourselves from the scope of this series for a minute. Derek lively, just, what if he's just awesome? If he's just awesome, that could go a long way towards adding another layer of resilience to what this Dallas Mavericks team can accomplish year on and year out. What's the pathway for Dallas? Dallas is going to somehow win this series. What does it look like? Well, it's really simple. You got to win one basketball game on Monday.

it's in Boston. To my Mavericks fans that are listening, are you confident, do any of you think that you're a better team than Boston? If any of you think that the level of optimism that you had going into the series, if you think there's legitimacy to that, go in a game.

Go in one game in Boston on Monday. Do exactly what you did tonight. Work on the ball to contain, flatten out, dribble penetration, for easier rotations so that it's easier to contest without fouling so that you can contain on the, uh, contain defensive rebounds, right? And all of those things trickle down to transition opportunities, which trickle down into cross matches, which prevent Boston from establishing

their game plan. Not to mention we have the poor Zingas injury wrinkle in all of this, right? So go to Boston on Monday and win one game. From there, you're the home team on Thursday. you'll be favored. You'll be favored to send this thing back to Boston for a game seven where the exact same principle applies. We have never seen a team come back from down 3-0, but we have seen a team come back from down 3-1 before in the NBA finals, right? And it's a momentum thing.

Once Cleveland won game 5, which, by the way, how did they win? They won because LeBron James and Kyrie Irving went into that building and drop 82 points. Do we think Luca and Kyrie are capable of that? I sure as hell do. It's a long shot, but they're capable of it, right? You win that game, you come home with all the momentum. Do you guys remember that Cavs Warriors game six?

It was like 33 to 11 or something in the first quarter. Like they jumped them early. That game was never truly competitive, right? And then you end up in the knockdown, drag out, fight game seven. So that's the pathway. If you believe you're the better team, go into Boston on Monday, execute on the details, win that game. From there, you have a home game with a chance to send it,

you send yourselves to a winner take all game seven. So yeah, like, do I think that's going to happen? Obviously not. But that is the pathway, and that's where you have to derive that belief. And there's no way you can do it if you don't believe. And that is what the mentality of that locker room is going to be over the course of the next couple of days.

On the Boston front, like, it's really this simple. Like, you can't fake urgency. it's completely impossible. There's playing hard, and then there's playing like your life depends on it. And like playing hard is a character thing. It's what we refer to as motor, right? You either have the willingness to push yourself when you're tired or you don't, right? That is like a thing that comes down to the individual, right?

But playing hard and playing desperate are two fundamentally different things. It's impossible to replicate. What you saw tonight was a crazy desperate Dallas effort. right? So all you have to do is bring that same level of desperation in game five. For you, it's the exact same concept in reverse that we were talking about with Dallas. You have to win on Monday because if you don't, you got to go to Dallas where they're going to be favored to send this thing to seven, right? So everything comes down to closing the deal on Monday, bringing that urgency, flipping that dynamic, riding the home crowd. Again, a lot of like game play and discipline stuff. So like Joe Missoula,

has been talking a lot about spacing. That was the quote coming out of halftime. All the same diligent, all the things that Boston was being very diligent about in the first three games. Getting the right matchup, running action early in the set to get switches so that you have Dallas's rim protectors above the break rather than along the baseline.

And then from there, creating dribble penetration, hunting the great shot instead of the good shot. You do all of that, you score. If you score, you get to set your defense. If you set your defense, you don't have transition cross-matches. If you don't have transition cross-matches, you can execute your defensive game plan,

which is something that Boston has done really well over the course of this series. I think Boston is going to win game five. However, we would all be foolish to write off Luca and Kyrie in a must-win game like that. That certainly is a possibility that's on the table, but I do think Boston is going to close it out in game five. All right, we're going to get into the mailbag.

drop questions to the chat, and we're going to get to as many as we can here over the next 20 minutes or so. We're this close to crowning a new NBA champion, and with action heating up on the court, it's even hotter at Draft King Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA. And Draft King Sportsbook has you covered every step of the way with same game parlays, live betting, odds boosts, and so much more. Don't miss out as the NBA postseason winds down. It's super easy to get started with Draft Kings if you're a first timer.

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What's up, fam, it's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game.

We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson,

we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers Why he got the ball, like, after you go through a training camp with that Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court,

and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and IHeart Podcast presents soccer moms. So I'm Leanne. This is my best friend, Janet. Hey.

And we have been joined at the Hipsons High School. Absolutely. Now a redacted amount of years later. We're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips, wider. This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey. With all the snacks and drink.

Sidebar. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a bogo. Well, then you got it. Do you want a white color or something here? Just take it. Oh, what are y'all doing? Microphones?

Are you making a rap album? Oh, I would. Come on. I would buy it. Cut through the defense like a hot. Hot knife through sponge cake. That sounds delicious. Oh, you're lucky I'm not a drug addict.

You're lucky I'm not an alcoholic. You're lucky I'm not a killer. I love this team and I'm really trying to be a figure in their lives that they can rely on. Oh. Listen to soccer moms on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that should be. shaped us. The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country. From My Heart Podcasts, Saigon. Please allow me to introduce Joseph Sherman. You don't think

I'm serious about a free Vietnam? I should stop talking so much. I like hearing you talk. One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart. This is for Vietnam. I've taken a hit from Japanese ground fire. Deuterate me. They're pouring patrol all over him. He's holding match you. I'm on a landmine. For free time. Let's get out. Freedom, mommy. Run! Sun!

Stigone, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict. Sting, here's madness. The world should hear about this. There's a fire coming to this country, and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, first question. Is Derek White the best role player in the NBA? If not, who is? This is a tough one. I'd have to, I'd have to take some time to really think about, to really think about who the other candidates for that type of, of kind of title is.

That said, I do think Derek White is kind of like the perfect NBA role player. And the main reason why is there's like a positional versatility with him. Like he's a guard, but he's pretty big and he's pretty athletic and like can do things with is length and athleticism on the back line as a rebounder and as a shot blocker. You know, there was a comment. I can't remember. Oh, it was a tweet. It was a tweet that came out.

It was like a report. Somebody, I'm going to blank on who it was, but somebody reported that Derek White could be considered for the Olympic team spot should, should Hawaii Leonard be unable to participate. And when I saw that, I thought that was interesting because like there's these other names that you're going to see thrown around, right? Like, oh, well, what about Piree? What about Jalen Brown?

And like both of those guys would certainly be more deserving, right? Like if you're just going on who has the better basketball reputation, that player should get the spot. I agree. But strictly is thinking about the game of basketball. Derek White, to me, is an incredible spot-up player who can run inverted ball screen actions and has a ton of experience running inverted ball screen actions, meaning he can set screens for LeB, set screens for Jason Tatum, who will be on that team as well. and pop and create

advantages there. A second piece of it, like Derek White is a professional off ball player. He is a professional off of superstars player, right?

He is a guy that has made his living learning how to be next to a supreme talent and fit his talent alongside what he does and to accentuate what the team does.

And so I actually tweeted when I saw that, I was like, Derek White would be, perfect. He'd be willing to take an on-ball defensive role like it was the most important thing that he's doing, right? I think Derek White is the consummate NBA role player that you could plug into any team, anywhere around the league. He's great above the break. He's great in the corners. He can run action. He can run inverted action. He's an athlete that can impact the game on both ends. I absolutely think that Derek White's in the conversation for best role player in the NBA.

Let's see. Should Joe Missouli? it play Chrisops Porzingis in game five. There's there's two things that you have to factor in here when it comes to Porzingis. One, like Boston has a chance to repeat. Like they're not in the Western Conference where it's like 10 bloodbath teams every single year. Like the East is going to be better next year. But I think Boston is going to be favored to win the East next year. Right. And so what you can't do with Christops is risk potentially him having some sort of bigger injury that extends into next year. And so what you can't do with Christops is risk potentially him having some sort of bigger injury that extends into next year. And so. And so, year or affects his ability to stay in shape over the summer, right? Like, we don't even know what the fallout of this injury is going to be like in the short term. So there's that piece of it. There's like a risk reward factor. If you think you can win the series of that Porzingis, you got to try to win the

series of that Porzingis. Second piece of it is how is his mobility? Like, part of what happened with Christopps Forzingis is he was playing awesome in the first two games. And a lot of that had to do with his mobility. After he kind of tweaked it, he wasn't playing as well. right so like it doesn't matter if he's out there if he's not christops porzinger so like it really depends on the coaching staff to know how much risk there is for severe additional injury

and two and i guess that's up to the medical staff and then two for the coaching staff how well is he actually moving in a way where he can impact things because if he's not then it's not worth it all right next question is there an argument that tatum is the most switchable defender in the league So yeah, absolutely. At this point in time, because like we've seen like there are guys that are in that conversation for like best perimeter defender guys that are like Jaden McDaniels who are like too thin to guard the bigger, stronger players in the league. But like to be clear, like Lucas had a lot of success against Jason Tatum in this series too. So like I wouldn't go as far as to like some of that's just Luca being unguardable. Right. But yeah, Tatum with his size and strength should in theory be able to do a better job on him than a guy like Jada McDaniels. A Jalen's. Jalen's. Jalen says. Suggs is another guy who's regarded as one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. He's a touch on the small side, right? Like, Lou Dort is a guy that I think can cause a lot of problems to some power players, but like, you know, he can be a little bit on the undersized side in terms of length.

So what about pull-up shooters when it comes to against a guy like him? Tatum has that unique capability of like real size and strength and perimeter mobility. Now, I don't think Tatum has been the same level of defender that he was in 2022 this year. I think Jalen Brown has made improvements since then. I think Tatum has gone down a little bit of a level since then. But Tatum hasn't done as good a job on the perimeter in this series, but he's been really good at the rim. He's been really good on the defensive glass.

He's done a good job holding up under any sort of physicality that Gafford brings to the table. But like in terms of switchability, meaning actual ability to guard one through five, Tatum is certainly in that conversation. Again, I'd have to think more about it to give you guys an actual list. Let's see. how do the Warriors become contenders next season? So anytime I see a team get written off,

and we just saw this last year with Dallas, and we're seeing it this year with Golden State, when you're writing a team off, usually if they've got a couple of real key foundational pieces, in this case, Kyrie and Luca, or in the Warriors case, like Steph Curry, some draft compensation, Jonathan Kaminga, Draymond Green is still one of the best defensive players in the league, right?

You've got foundational pieces. So it's really about smart tweaks. Now, it's a little bit more complicated for Golden State because Steph wasn't playing well to end the season. He was like a, he was like 75% of himself for basically the last half of the year. So like Steph is, Steph is going to have to one, get back to being Steph and then just smart tweaks. I think they absolutely have to get a bona fide secondary shot creator. There's been a lot of buzz surrounding like Zach Levine with Golden State in recent weeks. I've talked about like DeJante Murray.

We've talked about, you know, um, like more on the margins moves guys like McHale Bridges. There are a bunch of different directions they could go, but whoever that guy is, he needs to be somebody that can legitimately take the reins from Steph for large doses of basketball games. One of the underrated pieces of the Warriors decline over the last couple of years is Jordan Poole kind of fell off

and Andrew Wiggins kind of fell off. And those two guys kind of like combined for that legitimate secondary star in terms of offensive firepower. I don't know that Wiggins ever is going to get back to that. And Jordan Poole's gone. I don't think Chris Paul is going to be that. I'm not even sure if he's going to be on the roster next year. So, like, you got to find a bona fide secondary shot creator.

A little bit more interior size, I think, is the second piece. I actually like their wing athleticism. They just need to have a big look where they can be more physically imposing, maybe a Draymond Green at the four type of look. But again, don't underestimate small tweaks on the margins and how they can improve a team. Like Dallas literally just got like a, like, a couple of rim runners and a legitimate forward in PJ Washington, and they nailed one veteran minimum signing.

And then boom, NBA finals. So, like, that's, again, this stuff is, I always talk about that quote that I got from Mark Titus, that basketball is more art than science. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Like, you can't just add up the pieces on paper. There's like a synergy to the way basketball players fit together and slight tweaks that accentuate each other,

strengths can kind of lock into place and allow you to become a basketball team that is greater than the sum of its parts. With the passing of the great Jerry West, I've always wondered your favorite players from the older generations and who do you think would play well in today's NBA. I'm not going to go that far back, mainly just because for me, like as a basketball fan, especially when you go out past the 80s, I just, I have not watched enough of those guys to give an educated opinion about how I believe they would fit into today's game.

All I will say is like for me, the guys that I ended up watching a ton of, even though I didn't watch them when I was actually a kid, but more as an adult, is like the kind of players that kind of had my same build. So like I'm 6'6, I have long arms and I play on the wing. So like I watched a lot of Bobby Bryant growing up.

I watched a lot of Michael Jordan growing up. I watched a lot of Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, those kind of guys because those guys just kind of like played a, uh, uh, had similar like frame to me. So like I would try to play like they played because I wanted to do the kind of things that they could do. And so those were the guys that like I watched a lot of like film on and things along those lines.

And I've watched a lot of like NBA classic games and stuff like that. But when it comes to like Jerry West's generation, I'm just so under exposed to them. And one of the things that I try to do on this show is like not talk about things unless I'm, unless I've done the appropriate amount of research. search. And so I don't talk about the draft until we get out of the finals. I'm not going to sit here and pontificate about draft picks when I haven't done the requisite research. But interesting question. Again, to me, Jerry West, like I said this on the show with Colin, to me, he's just one of the

great basketball geniuses of all time. And I look at things like him putting Kobe and Shaq together, him stopping the Kevin Love for Clay Thompson trade, him kind of like being one of the guys, one of the, in the brain trust that assembled the Clippers. And there, the Clippers were supposed to be like Boston in so many different ways, right? And we're seeing that come to fruition into championship right now. So like to me, Jerry West was just kind of in touch with where the game of basketball was going and was one of the great geniuses of our time. Hey, Jason, fan from India. Enjoyed the content. I've been learning a lot about basketball keep up the good work. Oh, by the way, thank you for the kind words. I sincerely appreciate it. The one professional basketball contract I

signed before I hung up the shoes was in India. I was going to play in this league called the UBA. They paid me for like two weeks and then the league and then the league folded. And then at that point I looked at my wife and I was like, I can't keep doing this. I just got to go to work. But I got to meet when that league was being put together, it was in like the third or fourth season. They were doing like a major showcase here in the U.S. and they like flew all these people out. And I got to meet a ton of people that actually live in India. And it was just like a really cool a part of that experience. And big what if for me in my life is I always wonder what would happen if that season would

have come to fruition and then I would have gone over there. Work ethic and psycho-competitiveness is paramount to the greats. As a GM, how do you evaluate players in the draft for that intangible? So here's the thing. Like, I'm a big believer in kind of staying in your wheelhouse. It's impossible for me to really get into touch with the intangibles of draft prospects. because the people that do it year-round and watch every single interview they do,

watch every single one of their games and really keep an eye on their motor in the different, their competitiveness within games and things along those lines. For me, I have to do kind of a very abbreviated version of that. Like the NBA finals,

let's say they end on Monday. That's what, the 17th? So like, I'm going to have less than two weeks to prepare for the draft. And so for me, I'm going to be primarily focusing on skills,

like skills and tape. like just as much as I can digest in a short period of time. That's it. If I was working in the draft, that would be a major element to my focus on player evaluations, I should say. To me, like, it goes into the competitiveness or your, like, being a psycho, your work ethic, those sorts of things. Those to me, they don't just manifest in skill development.

They manifest in the games, right? Like in order to be the kind of player that buys into a defensive scheme and is willing to do the dirty work, you've got to be nasty, you've got to be competitive. There are no, there are no lazy guys that do that type of job, right? But in addition to that, it's about the competitiveness, the pettiness, the wanting to be better than the guy next to you. That's what drives you on a daily basis to put in the work. And one of the things I talk about a lot on the show, and I know this just from my own personal experience because I like went through skill development in my 20s because I was so. so late to pick up the game of basketball. It's incremental guys. You shoot 10,000 jump shots over the course of two months over the summer and you might get this much better. Like, it is a

year over year, like, just painstaking effort to improve your game on the margins. The same thing goes with ball handling. Ball handling and shooting. Like, you might experience some initial improvement, but it plateaus pretty quickly and then it's like incremental improvement. And so, like, you got to be the psycho. to be the guy that improves in those areas. And it requires, like, if you're just going into the gym, three, four times a week over the summer with the trainer and shooting a couple hundred shots,

like that's literally not going to do it. There is a, there is a psycho level of work you have to achieve on a day-to-day basis to make those sorts of improvements. How much of Brown having a, having better production than Jason Tatum in this playoffs has been based on how they're being defended. For example, being guarded by Nempart versus Neesmith. It's a huge factor, right?

like Tatum's always getting the primary defensive player. In terms of the actions, it's the same. Like both guys are getting the same help. Both guys are getting like aggressive coverages and ball screens and things along those lines. But there's no doubt in terms of the individual matchup, Tatum has a tougher shake. One of the bigger pieces of it is just the jump shooting, though. Jason Tatum is just having a nightmare jump shooting postseason. Jalen Brown is shooting better.

That's the give and take of basketball, right? like if I always talk about like defenders being on their toes or being on their heels, if they are terrified of you shooting a jumper, they're going to be up on their toes, which will make it easier for you to go around them. If they're terrified of you getting downhill, they're going to be on their heels. But if they only have to worry about one of those things, they can really sit on whatever that is. And so Jason Tatum, it's like offer a late contest and he's missing it right now. So like these guys are, it makes containing him easier.

in dribble drive situation. So again, I think it's part of it's the matchups. Part of it is Jason Tatum just is having a bad jump shooting stretch. And by the way, that can happen. That's part of the game of basketball, right? Like LeBron James last year at the worst jump shooting season he's had in 10 years. And then this year he had the best jump shooting season he's had in 10 years. I'm sure he worked hard last summer.

I'm sure that was part of it. But it's not like LeBron made some gigantic improvement year over year in terms of his actual core shooting capability. He had a rough season. He had a hot season. Jason Tatum has been in a shooting slump that's been lasting for a few months now. Who would you favor in a potential game six in Dallas?

So Boston deserves to be heavy favored in game five, right? As they should be. If Dallas were to steal that game, my guess is the line will be very slightly in Dallas's favor, something like Dallas minus point five. I also wouldn't be surprised if Boston was a very slight favorite in that game like a minus one and a half, minus 0.5, something like that.

For me, going into game 6 in Dallas, it'd be a coin flip for me. Main reason why is Boston's been really good on the road. I do believe Boston is the better team. I think that Boston has more advantages in this series. And so even if Dallas were to get some sort of crazy Kyrie-Luca effort to steal game five, I'd still make it basically a coin flip in game six, but Dallas absolutely could win that game. Will Farrell's Big Money Players and IHeart Podcast presents soccer moms.

So I'm Leanne. Yeah. This is my best friend Janet. Hey. And we have been joined at the hips since high school. Absolutely. Now a redacted amount of years later. We're still joined at the hip.

Just a little bit bigger hips, wider. This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey. With all the snacks and drinks. Sidebar. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a bogo. Well, then you got it.

Do you want a white collar or something here? Just hit it. Oh, what are y'all doing? Microphones? Are you making a rap album? I would buy it. Cut through the defense like a hot knife through sponge cake. That sounds delicious.

Oh, you're lucky I'm not a drug addict. You're lucky I'm not an alcoholic. You're lucky I'm not a killer. I love this team and I'm really trying to be a figure in their lives that they can rely on. Oh. Listen to soccer moms on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam, it's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds.

Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows, without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the line he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid.

He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He run up the court licking his fingers while he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball.

So listen to Point Game on the football. IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us. The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country. From IHeart Podcast, Saigon. Please allow me to introduce Joseph Sherman. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? I should stop talking so much.

I like hearing you talk. One city, a divided country, and the war that tore up. America apart. This is for Vietnam. I've taken a hit from Japanese ground fire. Do you rate me? They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches.

I'm on a landmine. Or free time. Let's get out. Freedom from Vietnam. Run! Saigon, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict. Sting, here's madness. The world should hear about this.

There's a fire coming to this country, and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon on the I-heart run. radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What do you think of Jordan Poole to the Nuggets? Wow, that's a really interesting type of deal. I went on Washington Sports Radio a few days ago, and I was talking a lot about how I wouldn't give up on Jordan Poole. And so I imagine they'll keep them.

I think that young guards in particular have very volatile, you know, kind of life cycles. And so I think that, you know, Jordan Poole at age 27 is going to be a pretty steady pro. And I think whatever team bets on that is going to, have some success. The reason why, it's simple. Jordan Poole can beat people off dribble and he can knock down jump shots. He's like, that's a really good combination. Like he's quick as hell and he can knock down jump shots.

Now, he hadn't shot the ball well in a couple of years, but that capability is certainly there. We've seen it in the past. As far as the Nuggets fit, though, one of the things I talked about a lot with the Nuggets, I love everything about that team, except for they don't have anybody that can just generate dribble penetration since Bruce Brown has left, right?

Like everything with Yokic is size related, Jamal Murray is screen related, right? So like having a guy like Jordan Poo can beat people off the dribble would be a huge asset to that team. It'd be tricky to figure out how to do the, to work out that type of deal though, especially at his salary. Is Luca a younger James Hardin,

an excellent score who doesn't know what defense is? No, Luca's a way better version of James Hardin, in my opinion. James Hardin was, James Hardin was what happens when analytics takes too much of a role in constructing an NBA offense. For instance, like James Hardin, the step back three, the left-handed drive off of the between the legs dribble and the occasional crossover back to the right, everything with James Hardin in his prime was at the rim, step back three, at the rim,

step back three, added a little bit of a floater in 2019, right? But like there was a predictability with James Hardin that made him easier to defend as playoff series progressed. One of the reasons why I think Luca has been a better player in the postseason than James Hardin is he never, it seems like every attack from him looks different. Like he's willing to attack from the post. He's willing to attack straight ISO, but he's also willing to attack in ball screens. He's not just taking step back tories. he's also getting into the mid-range. He's taking stepbacks from the mid-range.

He's taking turnaround jumpers from the mid-range. He can put you in jail and kind of like manipulate things from the middle of the floor. James Hardin never would stop in the middle of the floor in his prime in the 2018-2019 stretch. The, uh, that little like kind of right-handed push shot where he kind of powers his way along the right lane line and kind of fights for position and shoots that little pop shot. Like there's just so much more variety in Lucas game that makes, him a much more resilient offensive player, especially against elite defenses down the line. As far as the defensive end of the floor, like, I think Luke is going to learn his lesson. I think he's just young. I think he's arrogant. I think he needs to have humiliation to,

to kind of like have that slapped in his face, right? Like I've talked about it with LeBron all the time. Like 2011, LeBron got embarrassed. Dude, your jump shots too inconsistent. You don't have much of a back to the basket game. You just, you in general just aren't good enough. in these details to get to where you want to go. And like a huge part of what turned around his career, 2012 and 2013, was his ability to turn his back to the basket against Kauai Leonard, his ability to knock down over-the-top jumpers. Like his jumper saved him, literally, in 2012,

on the road in game six in Boston when they were down three, two. Like LeBron reached a level as a player as a result of humiliation. You like, remember you, like, disappeared that entire summer, like didn't talk to anybody. When he came back to following season, he was like reading books and shit. Like he was just like LeBron like got straight up humbled in 2011 and it made him a better version of himself. I think Luca needed to, I think Luca needed to get punched in the mouth and like, hey, dude,

you're really fucking good, but you're not good enough. And there's these clear areas where you can improve. And I think this series is amounting to that for Luca. What are your thoughts on the Luca Carmelo comp? As players, I don't really see how they're that similar, even if I point out the point, even if I get the point about the poor defense. So don't look at it so much as the player cop, because obviously they're very, very different types of players, right?

Luca is a playmaking forward. Carmelo is a scoring forward. But Luca is also an elite score, right? Like, to me, Luca is just a much better player with a much better standing in the league. I never thought Carmelo was like a true apex superstar. Like, he was just always in that second tier for me. Like, even when he was,

was on those really good Denver Nuggets teams in the late 2000s. I never thought he was like at the Kobe level, at the LeBron level. I always thought he was just like a tier below that. I think Luca's been an apex star for, you know, the better part of the half decade now. So like to me, I don't see the, uh, that specific side of the comp. Where I do agree and what the point that I think Colin was trying to point out is like, it's about unachieved potential. Like, Luke is insanely good. And he can be so much better. Like if he, he, actually became psycho competitive about how he cares for his body and he became like a leaner, more muscular, better conditioned version of himself, that's just a way better basketball player.

And when you combine that with the mentality to be engaged on the defensive end, he can achieve anything. He could be the goat. He could absolutely go on a run and be remembered in the conversation with LeBron James and Michael Jordan. That is an absolute potential for Luca, but it is non-negotiable that he addresses those things. I don't think Carmelo ever had that potential, but if you talked about what held him back, it's the same things. It's a lack of attention to health and fitness and a lack of commitment to the details, especially on the defensive end of the floor.

So I think that's the point he was trying to make. Again, it's not a perfect comp, but there are some similarities there. somehow, some way, somebody has to break the streak and win from down 03. Could it be this MAPS team? Of course, it could. It's just not likely. What I always talk about with this is any team that has the ability to go up 3-0 has advantages that allowed them to go up 3-0. You don't go up 3-0 as a fluke.

You do it with advantages, right? So like, in order for you to turn around and do the same thing and win four in a row, you better have all the advantages. and that would require roster dynamics flipping. So, like, I think the team that eventually breaks the O3 streak, and it'll happen eventually, but the team that eventually breaks the O3 streak, it's going to be injury-related. It's going to be some team that goes up 3-0 and then some sort of pivotly important

member of the team gets hurt, and then suddenly it just flips all those advantages, and then the team with the advantages, which is the down-0-3 team, is able to rack together some wins. Just for fun, who do you think would win a seven-game series between the 2020 Lakers and the 2024 Celtics. I just think it's an interesting matchup when comparing champions. So I think the 2020 Lakers are the best team since the 2018 Warriors. Main reason why is it's the only team in that span

that had two bona fide top five players in the league. The Raptors had Kauai. Your second best player is Pascal Seaccombe, right? The 2021 bucks, it's like Janus, and then it's Chris Middleton and, Drew, Drew Holiday, right? 2022 Warriors, it's Steph Curry, and then it's like Andrew Wiggins. It's probably second best player on the team.

Denver Nuggets, it's Nicole Yokic and Jamal Murray who's really good. I have the nuggets, I think, if I remember correctly, I have him second in that list. But like that team had, like, Jamal Murray is like somewhere around the 15th to 16th best player in the league, right? And then you have the Celtics team where I think they have two guys that are in that, like, six to 10 range, right? So like the, the Lakers had the unbelievable top end star power. as the matchup goes, the Lakers actually match up pretty well with the Celtics because they were

an excellent team on the perimeter defensively. They had, they had, they started game six of the NBA finals against the Miami Heat with LeBron James, Anthony Davis, Alex Caruso, Contavius, Caldwell Pope, and Danny Green. That's CCP, dominant perimeter defender. Alex Cruso, dominant perimeter defender. 2020 was the last great defensive season of LeBron's career. Anthony Davis was the best defensive player in the world. Danny Green was the worst defensive player in that lineup. The Lakers would have had the best player in the series. David had the best two players in the series. Now, as we all know, the Anthony Davis host 2020 by virtue of injuries and a lack of commitment to the details has declined as a jump shooter and has become a player that's actually down in that tier with Jason

Tatum and Jalen Brown now. But in 2020, he was better than both of those guys. And then these versions of both of these guys. Like, you guys remember AD in the bubble? He was like, is like Kevin Durant mixed with the best defense player in the world, right? Like he was, there was a case to make that he was at the same level as LeBron. And it was certainly close, although I still think LeBron is the best player in the world at that point. Do you think Jalen Brown can reach top tier superstar status? I don't know. I never want to say never, especially to a top tier athlete.

The one thing with Jalen Brown that I think would hold him back is even as he's made improvements as a playmaker, most of the top tier superstars are at least above average playmakers, and I don't think Jalen Brown has ever been able to reach that level. But I would never say never with a guy like Jalen Brown. Hypothetical, who would you have picked in the 2022 Western Conference finals had the Sons beat the Mavs in game seven and played the Warriors? That's interesting, but give me the warriors. I think Steph Curry would have been the best player in the series by a mile.

That Sun's team in particular too, like they, I would. never as high on that Sun's team as everybody else. They, in 2021, I thought the Lakers would have beat him if Anthony Davis didn't get hurt. The reason why they made it to the finals had a lot to do with injuries. They ended up facing that injured, uh, um, the Clippers team in the conference finals. Their best player was Devin Booker. And I really liked Devin Booker, but I don't think Devin Booker is an apex star. They, they would have been, I, I would have picked the Warriors against them for sure.

Saw summer trade rumor of marking into the Knicks. What do you think of that? That'd be awesome. that's like a now I think one of the things with the Knicks is I think they similarly to what we talked about with the Warriors I think they need a legitimate secondary shot creator and unfortunately Markin is more of a play finisher than a shot creator but he would certainly make them better as like kind of a slot into that Julius Randall position and putting OGN and Obie at the three but if I was if I was the Knicks I'd be targeting someone who's more capable of creating things off the bounce should lively be considered the third best rookie by behind Chet and Wemby. That's tough. Certainly if you're factoring in postseason contributions, right? I'd have to go back and look at all the rookies,

but certainly considering postseason contributions. Did Joe Missoula leak the formula to playing against Luca? So I talked about this after game was a one or two. I can't remember. But like, I immediately thought back to the Minnesota series, and I was like, man, should they? have just put Jada McDaniels on Daniel Gafford and put Rudy Gobert and Derek Jones Jr. And done the exact same thing. Essentially meaning put your biggest forward on Dallas's lob threats,

put your rim protector on their bat above the break shooters, which are Derek Jones and PJ Washington. I don't know if it would have been enough to turn around the Minnesota series because Minnesota had issues on the other end with their inability to penetrate Dallas's load up the strong side type of defense. but like this I do think that Joe Missoula has put together probably the best game plan. And again, like when people talk about the Mavericks, like their build is fine. They have rim protection. They have perimeter defenders. They have the superstars.

The one weakness is they do not have a guy who can both guard on the perimeter and hit above the break threes consistently. So if you look at their situation, there's not really a ton of opportunity to improve the roster. this summer, especially because they've gone all in in so many different ways. But what I would do is I'd go to PJ Washington and I'd be like and Derek Jones and I'd be like, and who knows, Derek Jones might end up being poached this summer because he had such a good season. And we'll see maybe the, I think the Mavericks will probably try to keep them with their mid-level exception.

But if Dallas can keep Derek Jones in PJ Washington, you basically point, point to those guys in their postseason kind of like wrap up meeting and you say above the break, threes all summer long. Above the break threes and corner threes, above the break threes and corner threes. Again, it's, there's a, there's a, it's not about winning one series against a really good team. You have to beat four teams and every team is going to defend you in different ways. Boston did put together a nice formula with Joe Missoula for how to slow down Dallas's offense. And the only counter for that is to be able to either have Derek lively turn into a three point shooter so that he can pick and pop in those situations or to have Derek Jones, PJ,

Wynston, that group of guys, Josh Green, you know, that group of guys become effective above the break shooters. Because again, if we look at the geometry of the four, if the dunker spot is occupied because Tatum or the other team's best forward is there, and guys are glued up on the corners because they don't need to help because the biggest forward is under the rim, then you're setting ball screens to attack their center with your forward. The, if Luca's trying to get downhill in that ball screen, just imagine the geometry of the floor, center in the dunker spot, Luca driving, shooters in the corners, that's four players, where is the opening? The entire above the brake line is open. If you have that guy,

the guy setting the screen, in this case, Derek Jones or PJ Washington, if you have them roll, they're rolling into all that shit show underneath the rim. If you have them pop, there's just a ton of opening above the break and those guys are going to be wide open every single time. So like that is the ultimate counter to what Boston is doing is you've got to have, you've got to force whoever it is that,

that they'll stop at that point because they won't want their rim protector being pulled out above the break. You can literally cancel out that adjustment and force them to go back to putting their center on your center as long as that guy is capable of hitting above the break threes. And so that I think is going to be a big kind of like skill development piece that PJ and,

and Derek Jones or whoever it is that they end up filling that spot with we'll have to work on over the summer. All right, guys, that is all I have for tonight. I sincerely appreciate you guys' participation in the mailbag and as always for supporting the show. We're going to run this mailbag as breakout clips probably on Saturday and Sunday. And then we'll be back with Colin on Monday night

to break down Game 5 after the final buzzer live on YouTube. I will see you guys then. Another podcast from some SNL late-night, comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

you get your podcasts. The story I told myself, then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast Deeply Well with Debbie Brown. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to Deeply Well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva, and on my new podcast, How Hard Can It Be?

I call on my Gen X squad from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate Midlife's most fantastic BS. Unfiltered conversations from night sweats to fupas to scheduling sex. Wait, what sex? Is it just me or does every woman my age want to look at Pinterest instead of having sex sometimes? They say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Diana Maria Riva on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast.

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