The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - NBA Finals: Will Mavericks stay hot vs. Celtics? Luka Doncic vs. Jayson Tatum

Episode Date: June 2, 2024

Jason Timpf answers listener questions about the NBA Finals during a mailbag segment. Jason dives into his early predictions on Luka Doncic, Kyrie Irving, and the Dallas Mavericks' matchup with Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, and the Boston Celtics. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes.

Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tauntons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith ruling. of two. Listen to Stuff to Bole Your Mind on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Cliver Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it.

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Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. See dkng.com slash B-Ball for eligibility, wagering, and deposit restrictions, terms, and responsible gaming resources. All right, welcome to Hoops Tonight here at the Volume. Happy Saturday, everybody. Hope all you guys are having a great start to your weekend. As promised, yesterday we did the Western Conference Finals kind of fallout mailbag. This episode is going to be all the mailbag questions centered around.

around the NBA final. So everything having to do with Boston and Dallas against each other. And then tomorrow morning we'll have one final mailbag that's going over everything else that's around the league. Anything that, any question that I received that didn't have anything to do with Dallas, Minnesota, or Boston is going to be in tomorrow's show. You guys know the drill before we get started. Subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos.

Follow me on Twitter at underscore Jason LT so you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast feed wherever you get your podcast under Hoops tonight. and then keep dropping mailback questions in those YouTube comments so we can keep hitting them throughout the rest of the postseason. All right, let's talk some basketball. So question number one, why are you picking Boston in the finals? The Mavs are better at playmaking, shot making, they have the best player in the series and the best duo. Call coaching, BB, basketball IQ, athleticism, size and length, chemistry, and fit a tie. Celtics are better defensively and have more.

talent across the roster, but Dallas has more depth. Are you expecting Boston to slow down Donchich and Irving and their collective offense to match the Mavs Superstar Duo? How would that work? So I put this question at the beginning for a specific reason, because we're going to get to a bunch of specific topics in the finals today, but I haven't done all my prep yet. So a couple things. I mentioned on the Cowherd podcast on Monday when he asked me, where are you leaning? And I am leaning Boston before I go into my prep, but I haven't done all my prep yet. And so I'm taking the weekend off with my wife. I recorded this show on Friday, taking the weekend off with my wife, decompressing for a little bit. Monday morning, I'm hitting the

film. And we're going to do an entire episode centered around Boston on offense on Monday. We're going to do an entire episode around Dallas on offense on Tuesday. And then I have two interview style ones with the nerd sesh guys and Sam Vassini for next week that is going to run on Wednesday morning and Wednesday evening flowing into the game. one day, which is on Thursday, right? So we're going to have a lot of film in those two sessions. I'm going to give you my actual pick. But yeah, I'm leaning Boston going in, but I don't know what I'm going to think after I go watch the film. It's very possible that I flip to Dallas. We'll see when we get to that point. I'm not actually making my official pick until we get

into probably the Tuesday show next week. That also factors in for some of the way I'm answering these questions right now. Like I'm going to reference some concepts that we're going to get into in more detail when we get into the film next week. As far as all of the specific details that he mentioned, we'll get into them in some of this mailbag and some of them in the film sessions next week. But I just wanted to reference, I haven't picked anybody yet. Yes, I'm leaning Boston, but we'll see how that kind of shapes out after we go into

all of our prep. Next question. Hey, Jason, love the show. I've been learning a lot from you for over a year now. you're the best analyst I found by far greetings from Brazil. Thank you for the kind words. Is Porzingis the key for Boston to reduce Dallas's Biggs impact by pulling them out of the paint and giving Tatum and Brown clear lanes to the basket? I'm a Dallas fan and I'm worried about this dynamic. So what was the biggest lesson we learned from the Minnesota Dallas series?

It was the perfect example of the fact that matchups dictate a lot when it comes to playoff series. I had a big rant about this in the mailbag yesterday as it pertains to Dallas fans. Dallas fans are the latest and a long line of fans. Denver last year, the year before that, Golden State, Milwaukee, the Lakers even, where there's this feeling that, oh, we're winning now, that means we're invincible and that we're this awesome team that no one's ever going to stop. And there is not a team like that in the league right now. The last team that we had that was like that was the Golden State Warriors in 2017, 2018.

team. I think out of all of the teams that I've seen in this last kind of five-year window, I think Denver is the most capable of sustained success year in and year out. They've got this perfectly constructed starting five, a really deep group of starters. And then obviously, Nicole Yokic is with Luca right there at the top of the league, if not at the very top of the league, right? But like, no one's invincible. And matchups do play a big role in who wins. And we just saw a Minnesota team beat my championship favorite going into the postseason Denver. The same Denver team that beat Boston twice that won the championship last year in convincing

fashion, right? That team had a lot of problems with Minnesota, right? And then that same Minnesota team walked into Dallas and it felt to me like six halves into the, or excuse me, six quarters into the series right around halfway through game two. I'm like, oh, they can't beat these guys because of the matchup, because of the perimeter athleticism, the interior defense piece, right? And we had a YouTube comment during one of the show.

where someone said, and I thought this was kind of profound at the time, he's like, this is a great example of how we can't look at playoff matchups through the lens of who the best team is in a vacuum. We have to look at it in individual matchups and how these basketball teams face up against each other, right? Because I personally would have picked Denver to beat Dallas that they faced in the conference finals, but they didn't play each other because Minnesota was a bad matchup for Denver.

They were able to dispatch of Denver. Now we have Dallas first Minnesota and the conference finals. finals and Dallas wins. By the way, I think Dallas would have had a chance to beat Denver. I would have given them a good chance. I just would have leaned slightly towards Denver in that matchup. The point is matchups matter. So what's different about this matchup compared to the Minnesota matchup, right? Now, in terms of defensive personnel, Boston has more good perimeter defenders in terms of, like I think they've four in their starting lineup that are all awesome. Like Drew Holliday's awesome. Jalen Brown's awesome. Tatum's awesome. Derek White is awesome.

right? Minnesota has really good perimeter defenders, especially in Anthony Edwards and Jaden McDaniels, right? But like the other guys that they had that are good perimeter defenders come off the bench, they have some offensive limitations, right? So like, I think Boston's perimeter defensive personnel is at a similar level to Minnesota, if not a little deeper, right? But the reality is none of them are big enough really to hang with Luca except for Jason Tatum, right? So that's an interesting matchup piece we're going to look at. We're going to go into a bunch of different matchup pieces over the course of this mailbag. But I want to zero in on one specific matchup, and that's the Porzingis and Horford matchup, right? So,

if we look at Minnesota, they are, they played Rudy Gobert the majority of the minutes. So they had shooting big lineups, or they'd have a shooting big at the center, but this is going to be very different in the sense that you're going to face 48 minutes of a shooting center, the entire series. It's going to be Porzingis for probably right around, you know, 27, 28 minutes, and it's going to be Horford, the remaining minutes, right? So you're going to face shooting bigs, the entire series. And they are going to pick and pop. That's what they do. They are a pick and pop, keep the floor spaced type of team. And so if you run a deep drop coverage or even a high drop coverage like Dallas did for the most part against Minnesota, you're going to leave some guys open. Schematically,

we've talked to this through before. If in a drop coverage, the guard is chasing over the top, so the offensive player is going downhill, the guard's chasing over the top, trying to apply back pressure, right? You're trying to funnel them into your screen defender that's waiting. He's either up at the level or he's a little bit further back, but he's waiting on the other side of that screen. What if the guy who sets a screen instead of rolling into that same vicinity pops to the three-point line? If he pops to the three-point line, he's going to be open. He's going to be open unless you rotate from the weak side, which is going to cause other

problems on the weak side of your defense, right? So that is a very unique piece in this series from a matchup standpoint that's very different than what we saw from Minnesota. Again, Minnesota had shooting bigs, but they did not lean into that for large portions. of the series, right? This is where I think Maxi Kleba, and him being back in the lineup, is an interesting kind of match-up piece for Dallas.

I think that we could end up seeing more of the Kleba lively duo than we see of the lively Gafford duo in this series, because Gafford, while he's an awesome rim protector, and his rim protection was very valuable against Minnesota, lively is better on the perimeter and Kleba is better on the perimeter. And so I think what will end up happening a lot in this series is Dallas is going to have to do some switching. They're going to have to have lineups out there with Kleba, P.J. Washington or lively PJ, PJ, Washington with Derek Jones Jr. obviously Kyrie can guard on the perimeter as well.

And they're going to have to do more switching in those ball screens. My guess is that's not how it'll start. They'll start in their drop and they'll leave Porzingis open to start the series. And basically they're going to be like, let's see if he hits them. in my experience watching the NBA, every single team basically concedes the pick and pop three until it becomes a problem. Doesn't matter if it's Miles Turner. Doesn't matter if it was Anthony Davis back in 2020 when he could shoot. Doesn't matter if it's Nicole Yokic. Nicole Yokich got left open on pick and pops in the Minnesota series, right? Like it doesn't matter who it is. Most teams will

favor the ball handler in a pick and pop and leave the popping big open until he starts making shots. he starts making shots, that's when you'll see kind of like what Boston did in the last round. Well, they'll switch Tatum onto Miles Turner, right? That's what I expect Dallas to do. I think they'll start in a drop coverage and concede shots to Porzingis, but eventually Porzingis, if he starts hitting, and I mean like over 40%, if Porzinga starts hitting, that's when they'll start switching. And that's when I think we'll see a lot more lively, a lot more Kleba, because Kleba can

guard on the perimeter, lively can guard on the perimeter, and whoever the primary roundball guy is, Derek Jones Jr. They're going to have him sprint back out to Christop's Porzingis or sprint back out to Al Horford. Now, Porzingis presents another issue in the sense that he's a switch beater. He will take you down to the post and try to attack your guard in an isolation situation there. However, that is something that is easier to handle as a team than a wide open three. So for instance, if Porzingis is hitting 40% of his pick and pop threes, that comes out to 1.2 points per possession. So if you're giving up five of those a game, you can safely assume you're going to give up 1.2 points per possession for those five possessions, right?

What does that come out to like seven points or something like that, right? So that's what you can count on for those five possessions. But if he goes down to the post, it's more possible if you can offer backside help, rotate out of it, maybe you can hold him below a point of one point two points per possession, right? So like those are the types of decisions that the staff has to make. What are we willing to concede? And again, I believe they'll start by conceding the pick and pop.

But if Porzinga starts hitting half of them, that's when they'll probably start switching and try to make Porzingis beat post-mish matches down low. Now, we're going to get into more of the other matchup examples, both in this mailbag, and when we get into the film session next week. But throw everything out. Everything you saw about Boston in the first three rounds, everything you saw about Dallas in the first three rounds, throw it all out.

It's all about this matchup and how these guys line up. And yes, this is a fundamentally very different offensive attack from Boston than Minnesota and it will challenge Dallas's defense in a different way. In the same way that Minnesota's defense was constructed to deal with Denver's interior size and passing, and they locked up Denver, but they had very little success slowing down Dallas. Dallas had a 118 and change offensive rating against Minnesota because they were a bad matchup for Dallas's offense. right? We have to throw all that out and zoom in on just this particular series. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right what you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away,

such as the biology of ton-tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little Kim?

Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett and I'm Alex English Each episode we pick it here unpack what went down and try to make sense of how we survived it including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s To be clear, 84 is big to me

not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day but just so y'all know I mean at this point Mark this is the second episode where we've discussed crack so I'm starting to see that there's a through line We also have AIDS on the table right now Thank you for finishing that sentence.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Better duo, Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown, or Luca and Kyra Irving. This is a tough one to me, and I think it's very close. To make it on a very simple level, I believe Jalen Brown,

is a bit better than Kyrie Irving. Jalen Brown's a much better defensive player, but Kyrie is a good defensive player. I think Kyrie is a better offensive player, but Jalen Brown is a very good offensive player, right? So I think Jalen Brown, Jalen Brown, we'll see when we get into the player rankings, but I think Jalen Brown's right around

the 15th best player in the world right now, and Kyrie Irving is somewhere in that, like, 17 to 22 type of range, right? Probably a little high. I think Kyrie's gained some ground in my book, so, like, I would argue that, like, we'll see when we get into the offseason, but I'd put Kyrie closer to the 17 side of that. You know, he's having an amazing offensive postseason run.

Don't look at the box score numbers either. It's about timely scoring. Like, Kyrie has been passive in a lot of games as Lucas run the show and then taken over late. That's obviously going to manifest in lower box score numbers. It's kind of like Jaylen Brown. He averaged, what, 23 points a game this regular season. He's capable of averaging 27, 28 on a good team if he's the number one option, right?

So, like, everything is in context of their team situations. but I do think Jaylon Brown's a little better than Kyrie Irving. But I think Luca Donchich is a little better than Jason Tatum. I think Luca Donchage is a bona fide top-tier superstar. I think Tatum is like near the top of the next tier of players. And so from there, why I lean towards Luca and Kyrie as a duo is the fact that I think having the best player in the series is a real advantage. And I do think Luca is a better basketball player than Jason Tatum.

And so I do think Dallas has a better duo. But that doesn't matter because the next three guys that you're going to name are all going to be Celtics. It's going to be Derek White, Porzingis, and Drew Holiday, if you're ranking players in the series. And so I don't think it really matters much in this series, but I do think Luca and Kyrie are the better duo. I'd argue it's actually more important just to focus on Luca and Tatum. Luca being better than Tatum is a more point, is a bigger point of optimism for Dallas. What do you think the pressure points will be for both teams defensively? Let's start with Dallas on defense. One of the biggest difference between Boston,

and Minnesota is Boston is equipped to attack you from every angle, whereas Minnesota has a bunch of play finishers on the floor, right? Like, it can run action, Kat can run action, Conley can run action, but ideally you don't want to run a ton through him, but it's like Gobert is strictly a play finisher and a bad one at that, and Jaden McDaniels is mostly just a play finisher, and he's not that great at it, right? This Boston team, everyone, is both a play finisher and a offensive initiator in their own way, and so they can target entry points easier than Minnesota could. So like Minnesota had a hard time attacking Luca because even when Luca would get on a switch, they just load up behind him by ignoring Rudy Colbert,

and it would just be Gafford or lively waiting under the rim if Ant did manage to beat Luke off the dribble, which allowed Luca to press up on Ant and take away the pull-up jumper, right? This series is going to be different in the sense that Luke is going to have to guard one of those guys. We'll talk about the matchups later, but like it's very possible that he ends up on a Jalen Brown or on a Drew Holiday. And like you will see, Boston will just give the, let's say he's on Drew Holiday. They'll just give the ball to Drew and they'll start running action. And they'll start looking to attack.

And like, let's say they bring Tatum into the action and Luca just switches and allows, you know, Derek Jones Jr. or PJ Washington to guard Drew Holiday. They're throwing the ball right to Tatum on Luca. And it's not going to be Gafford or lively parked in the paint on the back line. It's going to be Porzinga spacing to the opposite wing or to the opposite corner. And so, like, I do think, and by the way, we saw this, like, one of the things I thought was really interesting about the Pacer series, Boston was relentless attacking Halliburton. It was like every time down the floor. And so that, I think, is a big match-up difference in this series, especially from a fatigue standpoint, Luca got to do a lot of standing around against Minnesota on the defensive end of the floor.

He obviously did his job in that position, but he didn't have to engage himself as much defensively. Boston is going to make Luca work. He's an entry point. Kyrie Irving for all of his gifts as a size issue. So I think that teams will look to attack him. I say teams, Boston. I think Boston will look to attack him as well. But Luca and Kyrie being forced to guard the ball against Boston

is going to be a very different type of dynamic than the last series. On the opposite end of the floor, I think that Luca is going to, like they might put Tatum. Boston will inevitably at some point in the series put Tatum on the ball screen big to try to shut down ball screen action. but it's it's just going to be the and I actually think we'll see less of that because they're not a pick and pop team you might see that a little bit with Kleba but I doubt we'll see too much of it because they're a pick and roll team more than a pick and pop team right but even if tatum even

if they move guys around the Luca will find whoever porzingis is guarding even if it ends up being Derek Jones Jr if Boston puts porzingis on Derek Jones Jr., Luca will bring him up into the ball screen and he will look to attack the exact same way that he attacks in these other ball screen actions. Specifically, one of the things I've noticed on film, the size is an issue for Boston. Luca's too big for most of their guys. But I do think that they have a unique weapon in Jason Tatum to unleash on Luca that most teams in the league don't have, which is a really big strong forward that can actually match Luca's physicality. That said, Boston's entry points are going to be Derek White and Drew Holiday. Boston does a lot of

of switching, especially on guard-guard-guard actions. My guess is Luke is going to do a lot of dribbling the ball at the floor, calling for a guard-guard screen to get either Derek White or Drew Holiday switched on to him, and then put them in jail, trap them on his backside, methodically work down the lane, try to bait the rim protector one way or another and either shoot or pass out of there. So, like, again, I think the pressure points or entry points for both defenses will be for Dallas. It's going to be Luca and Kyrie, just getting attacked on the ball by Boston.

and on the other end of the floor, it's going to be the smaller perimeter players, I think, struggling to handle Luca's size and strength. Hey, Jason, as you've spoken about on the show, one of the Mav's key attributes that has led to their finals performances is rim protection. One thing we haven't talked much about, however, is their perimeter defense, which ranks among the bottom in the league this season. Although this wasn't a factor in the Minnesota series due to Minnesota not being a very good perimeter offense or jump shooting team in general,

do you expect this to be a factor in how the finals goes when considering Boston's elite perimeter players in Derek White, Jason Tatum, et cetera. Love the vids. A couple of things. First of all, I do think Dallas has good perimeter defense. I think that they did demonstrate that over the tail end of the season. This Dallas team, do you remember how all year long I kept talking about the mediocre

teams and that was like Dallas, the Lakers, the Bucks, you know, the Warriors, the, like all those teams that were like kind of beneath the top tier? I said consistently the same thing. They need like a 15 to 20 game stretch. sometime before the end of the season where they build the habits they need for the postseason. I kept referring to that constantly with all of those teams. Dallas did that. Dallas over the tail end of the season sharpened up their defense.

That's what they did. It was almost like a little mini training camp post-trade deadline where they got all that shit together and they're carrying that into the postseason. I think Derek Jones Jr. has been one of the best perimeter defenders in this postseason run. PJ Washington has had his moments. He's better on pull-up shooters than he is on drivers. He is a little bit slow foot laterally sometimes. But PJ Washington can defend on the perimeter.

Josh Green can defend on the perimeter. And Kyrie Irving, when he's locked in, is an above-average perimeter defender, in my opinion. I thought he had some good reps on Anthony Edwards last night. So, like, I actually think they're a good perimeter defense team. However, you're right about Boston's elite perimeter players in the sense that it stretches your perimeter defense. So if you use Derek Jones, Jr., let's say you use Derek Jones Jr. on Jalen Brown.

Or Derek White. Let's just say I think they'll probably use him on Derek White. We'll see. If they use Derek Jones Jr. on Derek White, and they use PJ Washington on Jason Tatum, and they use Kyrie Irving on Jalen Brown, that means that Drew Holiday is going to be guarded by Luca Donchich. And again, Jalen Brown is going to have a massive size advantage against Kyrie, and we know how he likes to attack in the post, which may cause them to switch that, and Kyrie will be on Derek White. But regardless of how those matchups work out, Boston just stretches your perimeter defense just because you need four good perimeter defenders to handle their perimeter threats. even with lively going down and coming back, do you think bringing in Maxi Kleba

into an obviously working Dallas starting rotation in the Celtic series could be a mistake as he's also a defense and rebounding liability in comparison and coming back from an injury? First of all, I think Maxi Kleba is a good defender. I think he's proven that over the last three years or so. I think that he also, because of his ability to switch on to perimeter players,

makes him uniquely valuable in a series like this against Boston. I think they have to play him. I think they have to play him a lot. I think it's actually more likely that you see a guy like Gafford get his minutes cut in a series like this. Next question. Looking at this Mav Celtics finals, one interesting dynamic is the personal motivators of the Dallas stars. Boston fans hate Kyrie, and I'm sure he will be extra motivated to beat this opponent more than any other. Luca and Chris Sforzingis didn't work out together, and I think Luca could go into this psychopath tendencies to try to torch him whenever he gets the chance.

Do you take these dynamics into account when previewing a series? I look, do I think Luca's indomitable personality and his ability to dominate a game as a factor? Yeah, but I don't think it has anything to do with Porzingis. Like, Luca got mad at a fan last night. Like the competitors like him, they don't need motivation. They find motivation. It's not hard for them. At this point, you're playing in the NBA finals with a chance to win the title and both teams are legitimately very good.

I don't think motivation plays a role at all in this series. I think everybody's motivated by the Larry O'Brien Trophy. Jason, question for the mailback. What's your take on the national media being seemingly overly critical and negative on Jason Tatum? He has always put up numbers and been the best player on the league's best team. Would appreciate your insight. Love the work you do. So I've seen a lot of this from Boston fans, and I really don't think it's that complicated.

I think there's a basic disconnect between where Boston fans view Jason Tatum and want him to be respected and where most of the fans around the league view him. So for instance, Jason Tatum's team success has been undeniably impressive. I mean, the guys, this is about to make his second NBA finals appearance. He's been to the conference finals a bunch of times. The dude's played over 100 playoff games already. He's had a lot of big playoff moments. So there's like a lot that like Tatum's already putting together a pretty long resume of

playoff success, right? But I don't think he's one of the top players in the league. I think that if you were ranking players, you're putting Yokic, you're putting Luca, you're putting Janice, and there's like a gap before you get to the next tier. Now, when you get to that next tier, the guys like, you know, Che Gilles-Elexander, the guys like Joel Embed, Jason Tatum, you could argue Tatum's at the top of that list, and we'll see how I end up ranking everybody when we get into the off-season. But I don't think Tatum is capable of doing what Luca Donchich did last night.

I don't think Tatum can completely mentally and physically dominate an opponent and get them to lose their confidence. I don't think Tatum has the ability to reach the heights that the top players in the league can reach, right? And so the problem there is that that's where the disconnect is. Boston fans desperately want Tatum to be regarded as one of those guys. And what they point to are his accomplishments. But the rest of the fans in the league are like, he's not one of those guys. And we don't care about those accomplishments because, one, the Eastern Conference is super damn weak. And two, in the time where the Boston, like, in the time since the Eastern Conference has gotten

stronger. And I do think in the last few years, the Eastern Conference is stronger at the top. But in that stretch, Tatum has also had by far the most talented roster in the conference. And so what that's done is it's minimized some of those accomplishments, right? It's no different than the LeBron MJ thing. LeBron fans are like, eight straight finals, eight straight finals. He's been to the finals 10 times. and while that is an accomplishment, that when you factor in the weakness of the Eastern Conference

is not going to sway an MJ supporter. A Michael Jordan fan is not going to look at LeBron's eight straight conference finals and be like, that's the differentiator. They want to see titles. And that's kind of because the title is undebatable, right? And even within the scope of titles, every title is way differently. Like LeBron's title in 2016 with the Cavs is way differently than his title in. 2020 when he had the best team in the league all season long, when Anthony Davis was also playing

at a top five level, and when they dominated everybody and didn't look threatened at any single point over the course of four rounds of the playoffs. So guess what? In the court of public opinion, the time that he came back from down 3-1 and had to achieve unbelievable level of play to steal a series against a 73-win team is going to be way differently, right? That's the thing. Jason Tatum, winning the Eastern Conference this year, winning 60-whatever game, in that weak-ass east against the terrible fucking opponents they played in their three playoff rounds is not going to sway the court of public opinion to raise Tatum up to the level with those guys. The only thing that is going to raise Tatum up to the level of what Luca and

Yokic and Janice are regarded at around the league is if he goes toe to toe with one of those guys and badly outplays them in a series. The last time he had a chance was the like last, last year against Jimmy Butler, and he lost. The year before against Steph Curry, and he lost. In the same season against Janus, it was like they were heavily favored going into that series because of the Chris Middleton injury. And Janus out, like Tatum had big moments in that series, but Janus dragged that series to seven games.

And Janus was the best player in that series. And so, like, that's the thing is like, what everyone outside of Boston wants to see is Tatum go into this Dallas series. and just badly outplay Luca and be the reason why his team wins the title. And by the way, if he does, I think he will get recognition from that group. But that's the disconnect there. Celtics fans are like, look at the resume, and everyone else is like, that conference is weak as hell. And ever since the conference got a little tougher, now you have the most talent in the league.

You have five, $30 million plus players. You have four of them actually on those contracts. And Derek White is worth, Derek White's worth like $35 million a year. and we'll get that the next time he's a free agent. So, like, that's just the reality of the way this stuff works. Go ask any Kevin Durant fan. They're going to be like, why isn't he regarded as this, this and this? And everyone says the same thing.

Why would we put Kevin Durant on the level of Stefan LeBron when he won two titles when he jumped on to that Golden State Warriors team at 173 games and he's lost everywhere else? Like, obviously those aren't going to be regarded the same way. It's just the reality of the court of public opinion. How do I feel about Tatum? I think he's somewhere in that, you know, fourth to seventh best player in the world. I think that he's perfect for that Celtics roster.

I think his defensive versatility is one of the most underrated things that we hear about a superstar in the league. The dude is just a dominant defensive player that flies completely underneath the radar. He's a great connective star, the perfect guy unselfishly to tie all of that talent together. he's perfect for that Celtics team. But he's not doing, especially not in terms of degree of difficulty, what Lucas had to do in the West, what Yokic had to do last year in the West,

what Yonis has had to do in years past as well. Janus is playing, like Janus was won a title with Drew Holiday and with Chris Middleton, right? Like, it's just a different level of difficulty. It's a different level of challenge for those stars. It's regarded differently in the court of public opinion. And again, like I don't see that gap closing. Celtics fans are going to continue to want Tatum to get that regard,

and everyone else is not going to give it to him until he finally climbs the mountaintop. And again, like, I'll be, I just need to prepare you Celtics fans. If Boston wins this series and Tatum averages, you know, 26, 10, and 5, and he shoots 42% from the field and 32% from 3, it settles for a bunch of bad jump shots and impacts the game still and is a great defender and does all those things. but Jalen Brown plays awesome and Drew Holiday plays awesome and Chris Ops Porzingis plays awesome

and Derek White plays awesome and Al Horford plays awesome and Pritchard and Houser hit a bunch of threes and Dallas just looks overwhelmed by talent and all of a sudden Tatum's hoisting the Bill Russell finals MVP trophy you guys need to be prepared for the rest of the league to be like yeah it kind of reminds me of when KD won in 2017 or 2018 right and KD was like actually considered

one of the top guys and like he didn't get credit. So like, again, that's just the way this all, this is just the way this all works. But if Tatum goes into the series and he guards Luca and shuts him down and averages 30 and shoots 48% from the field and 37% from three and is deeply and profoundly impactful and all these other facets of the game and the series goes six and Tatum makes a bunch of big plays and then he's hoisting the Bill Russell trophy, everybody in that other camp is going to be like, damn, that might be the best player in the world. And don't be surprised. if you actually see that group elevate Tatum to that level.

But that's what they want to see. They want to see difficulty. They want to see rising against adversity. They want to see you going toe to toe to with the best players in the world and beaten those dudes. The same way that Luca did in the last round against Ant, the same way that he did in the previous round against Chey Gildes-Alexander,

in the same way he did in the round before that against Paul George and James Harden. That's what people want to see. That is what gets regarded in terms of the actual full-blown NBA-wide fan base. local fan bases all have their different opinions about it, right? I'm a Lakers fan. Lakers fans are a lot higher on Anthony Davis than I am. Like, that's kind of the way this stuff works, right? Like, it is totally normal.

Like, Warriors fans still think Steph Curry is the best player in the world. Every Denver fan has been in my mentions and YouTube comments nonstop complaining about how I have elevated Luca above Yokic because of what he's doing in this postseason run because they're convinced their guy is still the best. This is totally normal, but if you're going to win the court of public opinion, there has to be this undeniable evidence to win that battle. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way,

this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of Ton Ton Ton, and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the

Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. One last note on that front, though, like, I do feel bad for Celtics fans in the sense that I do think Tatum has become a bit underrated in the sense that people, I think, don't pay enough attention to the good things he does do for that team. If Kyrie wins another ring, does he surpass guards? Dame Westbrook and Harden, not in a vacuum, but as a player who contributes to winning basketball. So when I look at like number two options who primarily focused on scoring the basketball, who helped lead their team to a championship, I think got in recent NBA history, I think guys like Paul Pierce in 2008 behind Kevin Garnett, who I thought was the best player on that team.

Jamal Murray for the Denver Nuggets was a good example of that. Chris Middleton for the Bucks, like he was the one who hit basically the game winner in that net series in game seven when they went into overtime. like those are guys that kind of focused on shot making to compliment their stars and they led their teams. Now, if he helped their teams win titles. Now, if he does it twice, if Kyrie does it twice, the next kind of peer that I'd be looking at there for Kyrie is a guy like Tony Parker, where it's like clearly not the best player on his team, but like a scoring ceiling razor who works at the guard position and is probably closer to the top of the league, people realize. And by the way, before you think Tony Parker is an insult for Kyrie Irving,

Tony Parker has made second team all NBA three times. Kyrie's made it once. Tony Parker has a MVP. So like that's not an insult. That is a compliment. I think Kyrie Irving enters into that Tony Parker layer of like secondary scoring guard that just helps lift a championship team to that level. Respect your work, Jason. My question is, do you see the Celtics mixing in different coverages to throw at, to throw Luca off like a box in one or zones? Or do you see them staying home and making him try to beat single coverage and eliminating the other players. I think we'll see a bunch of different coverages. I think we'll see some blitzing, especially on Knightsman Luca's got it going.

I think we'll see a lot of drop coverage. And I think we'll see a lot of switching, too. I think we'll see a lot of trying to force Luca to score on an island. I think we're going to see everything. And again, when it comes down to these types of situations trying to slow down a superstar, it's all about that variety and mixing up coverages and trying to keep the offensive player off balance. Jason, are we underestimating the Boston defense a bit?

I think Holiday is as strong as Dord will give Lucas an issue. Derek White is going to absolutely swallow up each of Kyrie's shots. First of all, I do think we underage Boston's defense. I think that they've demonstrated, especially in clutch time this postseason run, that when those four guys, Brown, Tatum, White, and Holiday, when they all really lock in on defense, I think that they can be frightening on the perimeter, right? That said, I do not think Drew Hewold.

Holiday is as big and strong as Lou Dort. I think that, like, Lou Dort brings, like, another level of physicality that Drew can't match and just in terms of his size. I don't think he's going to give Luca as many issues as Lou Dort did. And Derek White's an awesome guard defender, but no one's swallowing up each of Kyrie's shots. Like, have some respect for your opponent here. Like, Luca and Kyrie are really, really good. That said, I do believe that Boston is capable of being a better defensive team than Dallas. And I think that we'll see some crazy defensive punches from Boston in this series. Hello, Jason.

I have a question about Dallas defending Boston with Porzingis. Lively had some problems with him in the one-time Porzengis played in this matchup. I just feel like this is a potentially bad matchup for Dallas. How does Dallas try to counter it if it proves to be a problem early in the series? If it proves to be a problem early in the series, thanks. Love the show. A couple things. We talked a little bit more about that pick and pop piece earlier in the show, so I won't get into that again.

I am excited to look at the film and see what you're referencing and terms of Porzingis in lively's individual matchup. But like again, I think it comes down to them running drop until Porzingis starts making shots and then switching if Porzingis starts hitting at that point. Jason said Luca is going to be the best player in the MAF Celtic series. Is Kyrie the second best player in that series? Is Kyrie the second best player in that series? No, Jason Tatum is. Again, like I think we're, I think I think the NBA fan base at large underrates Tatum a little bit. I think he's a lot closer to Luca's level than people think. What will it take for you to admit that Jason Tatum is a better player than Luca Donchich?

I understand that Luca has better stats and is a better passer than Tatum, but Tatum has a much lower usage rate due to Boston's stacked roster. Tatum is bigger, faster, longer, stronger, and a better athlete and a much better defensive player, a better jump shot, in my opinion, a very underrated passer, no holes in his game, etc. He also tends to outplay Luca whenever they play head-to-head, and Boston has won the last four meetings. If Jason Tatum outplays Luca and Boston wins comfortably in five or six games, will you finally admit that you've had Tatum too? low in your player rankings and that he's a better player than Luca Donchich. This mailback question is a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier. That's how most Boston fans view Tatum. And so that's the disconnect. They view him as better than Luca and better than the guys at the top of the league. And outside of Boston, people don't feel that way. They view him in the tier below that,

right? A couple things. I do agree that Luca has the ability. I'm going to take it to the front portion of this question. What will it take for you to admit that Jason Tatum is a better player than Luca Donchich. Guard him in the series. You're going to need to. Guard him in the series, lock him up, and do everything you can to help your offense score on the other end of the floor, be the better two-way player, and lift your team to win the title. It's literally that simple. But if he doesn't take the Luca assignment and Luca shreds them, but Boston just wins because they're more talented, like that question that Boston's won the last four meetings, Boston's best team. Boston has the most talent in the league by far.

So, like, they should win most of the time. They should win the title this year. There are minus 220 favorite in the series. Tatum's not viewed as a minus 220 better player than Luca Donchage. That's the roster. The roster is what's dictating that. As far as the specifics, is Tatum bigger? In terms of, like, overall physicality, it's closer than you think I'd probably give the slight edge to Luca.

Is Tatum faster? Yes. Tatum longer, yes. Tatum's stronger. Tatum's leaner, but more like defined muscle, but Luke is a big strong motherfucker. A better athlete, definitely Tatum. Much better defensive player, definitely Tatum. Better jump shot, absolutely not. Tatum's jumper is very inconsistent. Lucas is more, like, Luke hasn't shot particularly well in this postseason run up until the last round, but from October to now, Luca's been a better shooter. Very underrated passer. You're right. Tatum's an underrated passer. You're right. Tatum's an under

rated passer. I think he's one of the best passers of all the forwards in the league. Luca might be the best passer in the league. That's just a, it's a different level. No holes in his game, totally disagree. I think Tatum in slow down half court environments can struggle sometimes. He's better at it than he used to be. He's better at it than a lot of people think he is, but he is not the same level of half court initiator as Luca Donchich. So again, in terms of, it has to be Tatum badly outplaying Luca and his team winning. It can't just be the team wins, but Tatum and Luca just kind of played. other to a draw. At that point, I think Lucas just accomplished more in this

playoff run in terms of degree of difficulty and what his team has needed him to do to win. But I'm not going to write that off. It's very possible that two weeks from now, we're talking about Tatum as the best player in the world. I'm not saying he can't do it. I'm saying I just don't think he's going to do it. I think the most likely scenario in this series is that Boston wins and Tatum looks more or less like he's looked through the other three rounds of the postseason, like just another really good player in the NBA. Do you think that Tatum has the ability to lock up or at least make life difficult for Luca to play well in this series?

I personally think that he can and will sacrifice his offensive production to do so, leaving the rest of the Celtics to pick up the slack offensively. Do you think that Dallas has the personnel to guard the rest of the Celtics starters effectively? So this would be the worst case scenario for Tatum in whatever sort of public opinion sort of thing because the public is so focused on box score numbers. But that is Boston's best pathway to victory. If Tatum goes into the series from this jump and says, I am guarding Luca Donchich, the entirety of the series,

everyone else I will spot up in the corner and run second side action whenever I have the legs for it. But you guys run the offense. I'm going to focus on Tatum. If Boston did that, I'd feel pretty strongly that Boston's going to win this series. It's just unlikely to me that they do that. I hope, I think that if they find themselves in some trouble, like if Dallas is up to one in the series,

I think we'll see a lot more Tatum on Luca, especially if they're struggling to guard him. But like that to me is like the, it's the non, it's not the super exciting way to win the series. But I think that that's an interesting direction that Boston could go that would be really difficult for Dallas to deal with. Who needs this championship more? This is a tough one.

Boston's bringing everybody back next year. I said this with Colin the other day. But the only thing that would really freak me out if I was Austin is if Taiton, Taitam sucks. If Tadam goes into the series, like he did in the Warriors series, and plays abhorrently bad, and Luca dominates the series in Dallas wins in six games, that's a catastrophe. Because now it's like, holy shit, Jason Tatum at age 26 just cannot go toe to toe with the best guys. And it doesn't matter how talented of a roster we put around him.

They're just not good enough. Like, that would be a catastrophe. but any other outcome is great. Like if Tatum plays great and you lose, you're bringing everybody back next year and you have a much better chance to get it done with another year of experience for Tatum, right? Or if you win, right?

Dallas has, it's just, if they lose, it's just bad no matter how you slice it. Because they've poured everything. The worst case scenario for Dallas is if you get killed. If Boston wins this series four games to one, that's rough. Because now you've invested so heavily, in this roster, which does not have enough firepower to beat Boston. And that becomes an issue, right?

And then you also didn't have to play Denver in the Western Conference playoffs, which there's a decent chance you have to the following year, right? So like, it's kind of both teams will live to fight again, regardless of what happens. I'm going to say Dallas needs this championship more, though, just simply because the West is much harder to get through and because they've invested so much more in terms of draft capital into this particular season. And they have less ability to pin it. pivot than Boston does. Boston has all these really good players. They can trade really good players. You know, like Dallas has a lot of play finishers that are valuable for them, but maybe less valuable elsewhere around the league. All right, guys, that is all I have for this particular

mailbag. I'll be back tomorrow with another mailbag on the rest of the league. I'll see you guys. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast, Superhuman, documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars. related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tauntons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win. A win is a win.

I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clever Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve

to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human