The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - NBA Player Rankings #14-13: Joel Embiid & Kawhi Leonard | Hoops Tonight

Episode Date: August 12, 2025

Jason dives into the next tier of his NBA player rankings, the start of the superstars. He discusses Philadelphia 76ers center Joel Embiid and Los Angeles Clippers forward Kawhi Leonard, the upside of each guy balanced out by their respective injury struggles. #VolumeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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All right, welcome to Hoops tonight here at The Volume. Heavy Monday, everybody. Hope all of you guys had a great weekend. We are continuing our player rankings today. We are venturing into a different tier of players going into. to our second tier, our second tier superstars. We're hitting number 14 and number 13 today.

You guys know the joke before we get started. Subscribe to Hoops Tonight YouTube channels. You don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on Twitter underscore Jason LT so you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast fee. Wherever you get your podcast under Hoops tonight, it's also super helpful if you leave a rating and a review on that front. Jackson's doing great work on our social media feeds on Twitter, Instagram,

Facebook, and TikTok. Make sure you guys follow us there. And last but not least, keep dropping mailbag questions in those YouTube comments. Remember, our mailbags are going to be geared towards the player rankings. So if you disagree with any of the numbers on this list, a player too high, player too low, player who should be on the list or shouldn't be on the list, whatever it may be,

just write your quick little elevator pitch, your quick, concise, basketball argument for why you disagree, and we'll get to them in our mailbags throughout the remainder of the summer. All right, let's talk some basketball. So as mentioned, we just finished our third tier of superstars. These are the guys that are firmly worth max contracts, probably not going to be the kind of guy

that could be the best player on a championship team. there were a couple guys towards the top of that tier, guys like Jimmy or guys like book who like if the right situation presented itself with tons of surrounding talent, they could probably do it. But that's a group that I think is below this next tier where with our second tier superstars, these are guys that are absolutely capable on any given night of staring down the very best players in the world and out playing them. That means even, yes, guys like Shay and Janus and Luca Duff. And even Nicola Yokic, these are guys that can go toe to toe with those guys and beat them. And we've seen them do it. Both of the guys that we're covering today have stared down Nicola Yokic and outplayed him head to head before in single games for one of these guys in the regular season and for one of these guys in one playoff game where Yokic ended up having the last word and getting the win. The point being, these are guys that on any given night that can reach that level. They have bona fide top.

tier superstar ceilings. But for various reasons, including age for guys like LeBron, or Kevin Durant, or injuries for guys like Kauai Leonard or Joelle Ambide or youth for guys like Anthony Edwards and Victor Wenbighamah, these guys struggle to maintain that absolute peak level of basketball. Several of these guys used to be firmly in the top tier, including both guys recovering today. And for guys like Ant and Wembe, I'd be shocked if they weren't in that top tier at some point over the next two or three seasons. The guys that are above this group, the players that I have in one through four, they are consistently night to night able to reach that level, at least the vast majority of time. And that's really the differentiator is the consistency.

And I think there's like a pretty substantial drop off from number four to number five in terms of that night to night consistency there. I actually really struggled with who to put in that fifth spot really for that particular reason. We had a mailback question the other day where we were talking about Tatum, and that's kind of why Tatum made so much sense in that five spot. He's the one guy who's like, obviously that number. He's clearly better than everyone below him, but clearly not as good as the four guys above him. He kind of like fits perfectly into that spot. So without any further ado, let's get started. Number 14, Joel M.B. Last season in review, last season was just a miserable injury-riddled season for Joelle. He played in just 19 games.

He had three separate attempts to try to rejoin the team and just was not able to get his body to cooperate before the 76ers finally shut him down. And it was the right decision. He didn't look much like himself when he was on the floor. There weren't many examples of him looking like the Joe L. Embed that won the MVP previously. All of his numbers and shooting metrics were down year over year. Flashed his upside every once in a while. He had a couple 30-point doubles and he had a 37-point game, but he just wasn't able to get healthy and to stay on the floor. Joel's season is actually kind of an interesting example of how this list works and how I put it together. I ranked Joel 11th last year. And as many of you guys may remember, I took a lot of shit for it, including Joel's trainer, Jew Hanlon actually came after me for it. And here's the thing, it's no secret. Joel's not my favorite player. There are several things about his game that I'm not a fan of.

But there are also several things about his game that I really like. and that are super impressive and that I'm drawn to. My decision to put Joel at 11 was simply weighing the realities of his health risks. In this list, we're looking at who is the best option to have on your team from October through June. And I absolutely view Joe L&B as a bona fide top-tier superstar when he's healthy.

But I just don't think it was a safe bet for him to make it through the season. And he did it. and we have to make the same call here. To me, Joel's upside is way too high to drop him to the next tier of guys. I think he'd be no lower than fifth on this list, maybe sixth with Tatum

if his knee could hold up. He has a unique problem. This is one of the unique things with Joel that kind of makes him an interesting a player to talk to in this context because we talked about outplaying the top guys. Out of any of the top guys, Nicole Yokic has issues with one, and that's Joe L. Embed. He's the one guy because of his size and his ability to really kind of neutralize some of the scoring that Nicole Yokich does and kind of turn him into more of a playmaker and his ability to attack Yokic in one-on-one situations is something that gave Yokic problems in the regular season context, obviously. But that is what makes him specifically interesting as a top-tier star. But I would argue out of this top four,

group, the top tier superstars and the second tier superstars, he's by far the least likely to actually make it through a season. And so he has to be down at number 14 for me. Now, for those who are not familiar with how I feel about a healthy Joel, I do want to dig into a little bit about that right here. I'd probably have a healthy version of Joel without any issues if he's just operating at the same level that he is when he's completely in rhythm and on the floor and night to night ready to go. I'd have him at five or six, probably six if Jason Tatum was healthy.

And so in that sense, yes, I am lower on Joel than most people at his absolute ceiling. It really comes down to his playoff shortcomings for me. And that's been a recurring theme, as we've discussed some of the guys that missed the list this year and guys that are lower on this list. First of all, the defense event. When Joel can stay near the rim,

he's one of the best defenders in basketball. But he's not very matchup resilient. He has two specific issues that cause him issues. Speed, teams that can really get up and down the floor and transition. Like, I would feel very, I would, I would not feel good about a healthy Sixers team against a healthy Indiana Pacers team with Tyrese Halliburton ready to go. I think they would just run him off the floor. And we saw it many points over the course of the years, him really, really struggle with

transition attack. He just struggles to change ends just because of his lack of foot speed. And then secondly, teams that can really force him to guard on the perimeter. So like excellent pull-up shooting teams that force him to come up to the level consistently or teams that force him to that kind of drag him out in switches. You guys might remember Jason Tatum in Game 7 of the, I remember, Eastern Conference semis, if I remember correctly a couple years ago. Jason Tatum like brutalized Joel Embed in Game 7 on switches and pick and roll in the

sense that like when he's out at the rim, he's one of the top, you know, five or six guys that you can have in the league. But when he's out on the perimeter, he actually suddenly becomes a pretty bad defensive player. And so there's a matchup resiliency thing with him defensively. I never viewed him as nearly as good of a playoff defender as he was a regular season defender. And so that was a big part of why I had him lower. And then on offense, he just was never able to really replicate his regular season success when he got to the postseason. The refs are less willing to reward his grifts. His jump shot becomes super streaky. He was always more of a jump shooter than he was like a short range score. Like guys like

Yokic, they use their body to get closer to the basket and they lean on hooks and floaters more than they lean on jump shots. Like you'll very rarely see Yokich take a mid-range jump shot unless he's up against the clock, right? Or if like it's dead wide open and it would break the offensive rhythm to dribble out of it. Mbid hunts those opportunities. And if they don't go in at a super high clip, it ends up neutering his efficiency when he gets into the postseason. And there was a proven way to have success against him defensively in the postseason by doubling him, specifically from behind. If you doubled him from his blindside,

he consistently struggled with it. For his career, he has 18 more turnovers than assists in the postseason. That was another consistent issue that would come up. So, like, I viewed Embed as a top-tier superstar, but I viewed him at the bottom of that top-tier because of those limitations when he got to the post-season. All of that said, I truly hope that Joe L.M.B. gets healthy this year

and that he's able to make another run at the title. The East is wide open. Obviously, if Paul George can get healthy, there's still a decent amount of talent on that roster. And he's capable of being the best player in that conference. And I'd argue a healthy Sixers team is actually a better roster than a healthy Bucks team. And so there's some potential there if all the stars align

for this to come together for a moment of redemption for Joe L. M. B. I saw the article about how bad as an he was, and I do truly feel awful for him. Like, I don't wish that on anybody. I hope he can get right, and I hope that we can watch Joel play in some big playoff games again this year. But in the meantime, I think 14 is the appropriate spot for him on this list. All right, last guy today. Going to be a quick show today.

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And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, name? Huge news. We created our own podcast. Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it.

We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special. So how did we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it.

Oh, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down. Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast.

But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests.

from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis, and I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on Clay.

Jenchian win. I mean, she went down at three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lena Rabakina is arguably the best player in the world right now, and I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat. the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days I'd put on 10 pounds, I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last season in review for Kauai played in just 37 games.

He basically sat out until January and then for the first month kind of slowly ramped up and then more or less played like normal through the end of the season. And it looked like there was a stretch there where the Clippers lost a couple back-to-back games to the Lakers and like it looked like Kauai just did. have that explosiveness. And I remember talking about it on the show. Like Kauai just doesn't look physically like himself. And then all of a sudden, there was a runway there right before the end of the season where you're like, holy shit. Like Kauai's starting to look a little bit like Kauai. And it was like, are we heading for another one of those environments where he just

suddenly in a playoff series looks like he might be the best player in the world. But the bad news is that even though the plan worked and they got him to the finish line and he was able to finish the playoff run, they all be it short playoff run without getting hurt. It was a lot. It was also the first year that I can remember where a healthy Kauai didn't feel like the indomitable force that he was in previous years. When Kauai was healthy in 2020 and in 2021 and in 2023, before he got hurt in those three in the last two playoff runs and before he got eliminated in 2020, he was that classic robot Kauai with the scoring and efficiency. His numbers in those three playoff runs are kind of insane. 30 points, eight rebounds, five assists, 63.4,

true shooting. That's like off the charts good. And all of us remember what it was like watching him in those games. He looked like he was every bit as good as the very best players in the world when that was happening. That was the upside that we were all clinging to when we would discuss the Clippers. If Kauai can stay healthy, he can be the best player in a playoff run potentially. For the handful of games in what was it, 2023, he would look better than KD in those games before he got hurt. That Clippers team looked destined for a, Destin for a finals run in 2021 before he got hurt. But that upside just didn't materialize this year. We got one game. Game two was wild. Vintage Kauai. 15 for 19 from the field, four for seven from three, 39 points, walked down the

nuggets with two ice cold jumpers in the final two and a half minutes. It felt like those other playoff runs. But outside of game two against Denver, he was never able to bring that true superstar force to bear. Game one, nine for 15 from the field, which is obviously efficient, but he had just 22 points and he had seven turnovers with only two assists. It was a bad game for Kauai. Game three, seven for 17. Game four, 10 for 22, 24 points to assist. That's a mediocre superstar game, a bad superstar game. Game five, eight for 15 from the field, 20, point. 11 assists, a fine game, but nothing special. Game 6, 27, 10, and 5 on 11 for 22. That's a really good game, but that's not like robot superhero Kauai. Game 7, elimination, everything on the

line, 6 for 13, 22 points, 5 rebounds to assist. And there's context there. Like Denver brought a lot of double teams against Kauai in that series, but at the same time, Kauai did a really poor job of managing and solving those double teams. So even though the shooting percentages, you zoomed out from the series, he was still 50, 40. Like, the shooting percentages look fine. But if you take out game two, he was actually pretty mediocre in that series, and his scoring volume wasn't good at all.

So the bottom line is, in years past, it felt like a healthy Kauai was as good as the best player is in the league. But this year, Kauai went into the playoffs healthy, and he didn't come close to that level. And that was really sad for me as a basketball fan. One of the things it felt like as we were watching it,

was like, oh man, like, is this the end of Kauai's prime? Like, for me as a basketball fan, I actually really like watching Kauai. There's a lot of, like when I play in the post, a lot of the post work that I do, I've tried to mimic Kauai in terms of physical post-up play and using your shoulders to get separation. Like, Kauai is a player that I've always been drawn to. And it feels like we got robbed of his prime. And now it just feels like we're on the other side and that really sucks.

Let's take a look at the season real quick. Let's go through some of his numbers. 37 games played. He had 22.6 rebounds and three assists. 2.1 stocks per game, 1.6 steals, which actually ranked 17th in the NBA. His percentages, he was just below 50% from the field. That was his first time below 50% since 2020. 41% from three and five attempts per game.

Shot the ball well there. 81% from the line, but only three attempts per game. And this is perhaps the most concerning stat as it pertains to Kauai's declining athleticism. Kauai is not a grifter. He doesn't get to the line by doing janky shit. He gets to the line as a supreme athlete that gets defenders out of position. But if you look back, his last full healthy season in San Antonio,

his season in Toronto where he won the title, his season with the Clippers in 2020, in those seasons, he posted over seven free throw attempts per game in each of those three seasons. This year, just three. So less than half what he was at his peak. He's just not getting defenders out of position. the way that he used to.

56% in effective field goal percentage, which is fine, but it's not Kauai. 59% true shooting, which is fine. It's not Kauai. It's as lowest since 2020. Play type data, this is where you can really see the drop off. Down across the board, he was below a point per possession in pick and roll.

The year before, he was at 1.04, which was 69th percentile. So he dropped substantially year over year as a pick and roll player. He was below a point per possession in ISO this year. The year before, he was one of the best ISO players in the league, 1.25 points per ISO, including passes, which was in the 96th percentile. This year in the post, 1.07 points per possession, which is slightly above average. But one year prior, 1.14, 7 points better per 100 possessions.

A massive year-over-year deep, a dip in his play type, in his shot creation out of various play types. So, I mean, the reason why Kauai has dropped all the way to 13 on this list is simply that the equation is changed. It used to be that, like, if you could somehow navigate the season and get to the finish line with a healthy Kauai, you got to have a top-tier superstar at that point, and he had the potential to outplay the best players in the league. He gave you that crazy upside, right? That, like, maybe they can win the title upside. But now it feels like if you get through a season with a healthy Kauai, you get a second-tier superstar.

A guy that on any one night, like in game two, can reach that level and outplay the best players in the world. But a guy who on most nights is probably going to be a level below that. So that's how he lands at number 13 this year. All right, guys, that's all I have for today. As always, I sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. We'll be back on a Wednesday with number 12 and number 11. I will see you guys then.

Hey, guys, it's us and the Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it.

We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but, you know. Tired and sick. Tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Spocker. Myrtle and Friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Winning on Clay is an art. The rallies are relentless, and at the French Open, only the toughest survive. I'd know. I competed there for decades. Join me, Renee Stubbs, on the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast, for no-nonsense breakdowns of the biggest matches, the toughest players, and the moments that define Roland Garris. She's an outsider to win the French name. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lerner-Rabchina is arguably the best player in the world right now, and I actually can win on any surface. Listen to the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast on the I-Heart Radio app. podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports.

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