The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - Nuggets-Timberwolves: Will Jokic & Denver survive SURGING Anthony Edwards & Wolves?

Episode Date: May 3, 2024

Jason Timpf is joined by Adam Mares of the 'All NBA Podcast' and 'DNVR' to break down Nikola Jokic and the Denver Nuggets' matchup with Anthony Edwards and the Minnesota Timberwolves in the second round of the NBA Playoffs. The guys discuss whether LeBron James, Anthony Davis, and the Los Angeles Lakers will be the toughest team the Nuggets face in their quest to repeat as NBA champions. Later, they break down the biggest matchups in the Nuggets-Timberwolves series. Will Denver slow down Anthony Edwards? How will Denver attack Minnesota's ferocious defense? The guys answer all of these questions before sharing their series predictions for this star-studded second round matchup. #volume #Herd Timeline: 04:00 - Were Nuggets on cruise control vs. Lakers? 14:05 - Recapping Nuggets-Wolves prior matchups 15:48 - How Nuggets will attack Wolves stout defense 26:28 - Can Anthony Edwards be stopped? 33:15 - How Denver should approach Minnesota pick and roll 37:54 - Biggest matchups for Denver defense 40:30 - Adam's keys for Nuggets 41:53 - Timberwolves-Nuggets Predictions 46:46 - Anthony Edwards' emergence 50:00 - Timberwolves-Nuggets Predictions 52:30 - What separates Ant, Jokic & Murray 54:00 - Anthony Edwards or Jayson Tatum? 56:43 - Does Jokic have highest floor in NBA history? 1:04:47 - Check out Adam's work!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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and I can think of nobody better than my friend Adam Marz, who works, it covers the nuggets as well as the rest of the league through the All-MBA podcast as well as through the NBR, just a basketball mind that I have a ton of respect for. Super, super lucky to have him on the show today and I'm excited to get into a bunch of stuff. Adam, I want to start with the Lakers series, though, because a really interesting thing happened to me as a fan. That's the one team that I have a little bit of a fan rooting interest in. You know, going into that series, I did not think they had a real chance. Like there was always like that tiny little chance, you know, like the, if things break right and everybody plays out of their mind, you have that chance. But like, I never really believed. And I didn't believe in game one, didn't believe in game two when they were up 20, didn't believe in game three when they led at the half, didn't believe in game four when

they won. But there was a brief moment in game five. I wouldn't have picked the Lakers just because it's really difficult. to beat a good team four times in a row under any circumstances, let alone when they have the best player of the world and they're the defending champ. But there was a brief moment in game five where I felt like the Lakers were starting to gain some ground mentally and physically. They started to feel more confident in the matchup and they kind of figured out what their advantages were and obviously through the KCP ankle injury and Jamal Murray's calf. It just felt like the

Lakers were starting to gain some ground. And I thought that they went from having a tiny chance to like an actually acknowledgmentable chance. So am I just being a crazy fan or did you feel a similar type of trend over the course of that series? And again, not saying the Lakers would have one, but went from very unlikely to at least having some sort of opportunity there. Well, I think what you're hinting at here is Denver didn't look good.

And I think the one thing that we always have to remember in a series is that there's always one team that's more urgent. Denver never felt urgency in the series outside of maybe the second half of game two when I think they let the game get a little too far out of hand and then by the skin of their teeth made it back. But in game five, I just thought Denver, and it really threw the whole series. I thought Denver took the Lakers very lightly. They seemed bored with the series. And I think the team, you know, projected that. I'll say, I don't think anybody on the record came out and said, hey, I think that this is a series that Denver had a hard time getting through. But that was the sense I got. So if they lost that game and you have to go on the

road back to Los Angeles, does that mean they would muster up the energy like, okay, let's all lean forward now, let's get into it? Or is that one that maybe would have taken the wind out of the sale? I don't know. What I will say is that I thought Anthony Davis was very comfortable scoring on Yokic in that series. Yokic never really solved that. And then Jamal Murray was banged up clearly, did not play well in any of the games in the series, save for the fourth quarters of games, in game five. So I think you look at that and it's easy for me to say, I think the Nuggets had another gear that they have not tapped into and that'll be a storyline as we move on to the next series. But at the same time, Denver looked tired, Murray looked banged up and I think they were

very happy to get that series done when they did. Yeah, you know, I said the same thing after game four. I was like Denver has not had urgency, meaning like they were, I felt like they were approaching the series with a certain level of professionalism. Like they were given their 85, 90% effort. But again, when you beat a team that many times in a row, it's impossible to feel threatened. There's also no way to replicate, like, true urgency, which I look at it like an actual fear of losing, right? That was what was interesting to me about Game 5, though, is like it felt like a game the Nuggets kind of needed, but the Lakers were able to kind of remain competitive throughout. At the end of the day, though, like, I thought there was one specific thing that

prevented me from ever really believing the Lakers had a real chance. And it had to do with perimeter defense, which I think is going to be interesting as we get into the Timberwolf series. But during the regular season, the Lakers had like a 194, I think, defensive rating and the clutch against Denver. They were scoring like every time down the floor. And then game two came around and they scored on eight of their final nine possessions, right? And like, then we get into game five. And once again, it was like at the end of the game, it was like another Jamal Murray driving layup in pick and roll, another pull, up jumper to win the game. Obviously, he hit a three on an offensive rebound at the end of the

game too. To me, it really came down to the Lakers never had a guy who could guard Jamal well. I think Austin did his job within the game plan, but he just didn't have the physical tools necessary to really make Jamal uncomfortable. And then the matchup that killed us all series was that Michael Porter Jr. matchup. And again, part of that's roster construction. Like when you roll out two forwards at the three and four that can't navigate screens. You're going to run into issues with MPJ kind of running off the screens. It wasn't just Rui either. LeBron lost him a few times in the series as well.

But like that, that to me was where that matchup went south for the Lakers. Ironically, when we go into the next round, like, I view Denver, I view Minnesota as a much tougher defensive matchup for Denver, but a much easier offensive matchup. I think some of the damage that the Lakers did to the Nuggets in the paint had a lot to do with not just LeBron and AD as rollers, but their IQ and read and reactability on that backline. Like, I just don't think you're going to get that from Gobert and Towns in this series. And so did you kind of like get a similar sense where like some of the unique ability of LeBron and AD as a front court duo caused some problems for Denver that other teams in the league

just can't? There's no question. And the team themselves reiterated that after the series. I mean, Jamal Murray, I don't know if you saw his postgame presser after game five. He was as impressed with LeBron as I was. He talked about how he was one of his favorite players growing up. And then he just kept saying, he makes you think every play. Well, you're out there. You're just constantly having to think through.

And look, they were a seven seed. Their roster was flawed. It wasn't like they were a phenomenal all around team. But I just think there's a reason LeBron has only lost, what, 11 playoff series or something in his entire career. He's got 80 and 11 or something all the time. He's so good in the playoffs. and even with that roster, he just put so much pressure on you.

And then Anthony Davis had his jump shot going. I think he was very confident against Yokic. It's funny because Yokic's numbers are tremendous. I thought he did a great job against Yokic. One of the best jobs we've seen on both ends, putting pressure on him on offense, and then defensively, obviously, they did that quick double. But in the moments when he was one-on-one, he made life difficult on Yokic. So I 100% agree that I think those two guys did a great job.

I think the Lakers are better than people probably will give them credit for. And just like last year, the series was probably closer than the five games would indicate. But at the same time, Denver has been doing this now for two years with this core five. And for seven years with that core two, Marie and Yokic. They have so many reps. It's hard to, it's hard, I think, for people to wrap their heads around how many reps that unit has together, how they've seen everything. And both game winners, Jason came with no time out.

It's no small detail. And then if you look at all the details in those plays, all the little things. all the little things guys did, where they got onto the court. That was a team that if you called a timeout, most teams, if you call a timeout and draw up that exact action, they would not be able to execute it with these subtleties that Denver did. And they did that with no timeout. And that's what makes them special.

So when they win all these games close, to me, there's a level of luck involved naturally. It's just math, you know, short 10 possessions is not that many. So ball bounces your way. It makes a huge difference. But there's something to Denver that I say, it's not all luck. And it's not all variance.

That team just does every detail right. those moments and it's why they're the best clutch team. Yeah, when you brought up the seven years, I immediately thought about Malone's comments after game five, like trust the best two-man game in the league. Like, because it's just a certain level of like, it almost is instinctual for the two of them after all this time. And like last note on the Lakers, before we move on, like, I, there's going to be a lot of moments at their expense, first round exit. Both of them talked about how they wanted Denver again. One thing I'll say, though, I think LeBron and AD put their money where their mouth was. Like, Yokic kicked AD's ass last year and Jamal soundly outplayed LeBron.

I thought AD closed the gap a little bit. Obviously, he didn't surpass him, but he closed the gap a little bit. And I thought LeBron actually outside of the clutch shooting was a better player in this series than Jamal Murray. So like shout out to them. But like at the end of the day, it actually just shined a giant light on the chasm between the down the roster competence. And like again, like I think it's actually fascinating that the Lakers went about a bizarre roster build with two skills. guards and two big forwards instead of having a natural two and a natural three. And who were the two guys who let them down in the biggest way in the series?

It was the second skill guard and the second big forward, Rui and Dilo. And I thought that was fascinating. So like in a weird way, it was like, I was proud of the Lakers. I was proud of LeBron and AD, but it was like very revealing as to why there's a gap between these two teams and what they need to address moving forward. So looking at Wolves Nuggets, I'm going to read through some quick numbers before we get into the weeds here. So season series was 2-2.

The only time all 10 starters played was way back in early November. Like I think it was November 1st. So we're talking about that just feels like an eon ago. Denver won the most recent game. All the starters played except for Kat and Jamal Murray was on a minutes restriction in that game. I think he only played like 26 minutes. And that was the game, if you remember, where they went without Jamal in those like early second quarter, early fourth quarter units that he usually leads.

and just really good basketball for Peyton Watson and Aaron Gordon as they just kind of manufactured buckets and kind of won in a classic Denver fashion. It was competitive and then Denver pulled away late. The metrics for the whole season in all four games, the Nuggets had a 109.1 offensive rating. The wolves had a 114.9, although they had some blowout wins in games where Jamal Murray didn't play. Denver dominated the rebounding battle. They grabbed 54.2% of available rebounds. They also rebounded 30. of their own misses. I think that's fascinating because Minnesota destroyed Phoenix on the glass.

That was a huge part of that series. They grabbed 40% of their own misses in that series. So I think that's going to be interesting. Denver won points in the paint in the season series, 216 to 186. Denver won second chance points, 56 to 46. Minnesota won fast break points, 56 to 47. And big one here, one points off a turnover,

75 to 50. I think that's going to be a huge narrative in this series is just how well Denver can take care of the basketball. And on the gambling side of things, according to Draft Kings, the Nuggets are currently a minus 205 favorite. That's pretty substantial. So Vegas views Denver as the better team.

So let's start with Denver on offense. And as I mentioned at the start of the show, to me, the main difference in this series is the giant gap in perimeter defense talent. Like, I think we're going to see Jada McDaniels on Jamal and aunt on Michael Porter Jr. for a good chunk of the series.

and I think that is just going to be a substantially larger challenge for those two guys than what the Lakers brought to the table. So what do you see in this series with Denver on offense? How do you think their approach will be different compared to the Laker series? I think the whole thing will be different. I mean, the Lakers actually dictated Denver's offense in a unique way in the last round and that they quit doubled Yokic every time he's in the post. And that's such a compromising defense to play to say,

we're just going to send two guys at him and then just scramble. Every possession we're going to be in rotation. I don't think Minnesota will do that. I think they're going to trust that Rudy Gobert has that, so we don't need to double. He's your rim protector. And that'll be an interesting one because it'll come down a lot to how well does Yokic score on Carl Anthony Towns with that, you know, spy defense from Rudy Gobert.

That'll be a big one. I think Yokuch will do very well in that. And I actually think Denver, starting last year with the Rudy, Rui adjustment, Denver has seen every team try some form of that. Bring your rim protector on Aaron Gordon and just bring him over to try to block shots Denver has a lot of experience and I think they'll be successful. Where I think they'll struggle is with the pick and roll, which is obviously the bread and butter of Denver's offense.

Nikol Alexander Walker and Jaden McDaniels, in my opinion, are two of the absolute best in the league at not getting screened on screens. They're so hard to run pick and roll game because they're so skinny, they get so into you, and then that screen just becomes non-existent. And even if you do screen them, they're both don't quit on the play, try to contest from behind and can have success with that.

Murray historically has been great at punishing guys that are trying to, you know, play from behind, top lock or challenge from behind. He's so good at, you know, his glitchy little moves and creating separation there and putting the defense, making them guess. But in the first round, he didn't do that. And I don't know if he didn't do that because of all the injuries or what it is. But if Murray is able to play the game that I think he, that he has played in years past in the playoffs. I think he can score on Jaden McDaniels as good of a defender as he is. And I think Denver can

compromise Minnesota's defense in a way less so than most teams, but still in a way that makes them successful. But if he can't, then there's so many downstream effects of that. That pick and roll loses a lot of its bite. And so much of what Denver does is downstream of that initial pick and action. So to me, I think we're going to know very early in this series, how healthy is Murray and how effective is the Yokich Murray pick and roll when those two guys are guarding Murray? I think that's part of why winning game five was so important to buy that extra couple of days off. That was, that was, that was, I viewed that as such a must win for Denver. And can't say enough, Jamal got credit for the clutch shots, but I thought he was awesome at

the beginning of that game too to kind of put him away or to kind of keep him close. It was like, again, like having Jaden matchup, you want every bit of physical pop that Jamal Murray has. Starting with Yokic, I agree with you. I think Yokic is going to have to score a lot in this series. again, Minnesota in general as a matter of identity doesn't like to double or defend pick and rolls three on two. They try to stay home as much as possible. As a matter of fact, they were fourth in opponent assists per 100 possessions in the regular season and second so far in the postseason.

And that was a big part. Now, Phoenix, I thought, missed a lot of reads. I think there are opportunities there, excuse me, that Denver will capitalize on to a much higher level than Phoenix did just because Yokic is so much better at identifying those openings than K.D. Devin Booker and Bradley Beal were, but I do think that's going to be a big part of it. I went back and I watched every single shot attempt that Yokic took over the course of the regular season against Minnesota. Kyle Anderson and Nas Reid, it's just a layup. They just can't. They literally can't stop Yokic at all. It's kind of reminds me the Rui Hachemuramara matchup. It's just like anytime you left him on an island. It was a bucket every time.

He's too big for Gobert and he's good at like getting Rudy to jump to a specific angle so that he can pivot around him and get all the way to the rim. Kat's the one guy. I've seen that actually can kind of like hold his ground a little bit and make him shoot over the top. But I didn't think Yokic looked really bothered by Kat either in the in the matchups that I watch. So like I think that that's going to be a huge part of this series is Minnesota trying to tie your Yokic out by making him a score. And I think that's going to be their kind of like game plan in this sense. On the ball screens, one of the things I thought was interesting with Jada McDaniels on Jamal Murray, a couple things. First of all, screening is going to be huge.

like the quality of screens that they set, not just with Yokic, but when they set like staggered screens where they have, one of the things they had some success with to get McDaniels off of Jamal was like three man actions, basically like having a KCP or a Michael Porter Jr. set the screen before Jamal runs into Yokic. They can get some success slipping out of that too,

with whoever the other guard is. But like one of the things I noticed, when Jaden was on Jamal Murray, Murray seemed very cognizant of the back pressure and much more willing to get downhill and take floaters. That was a big one I noticed. And then two, he was much more active as a passer in the season series because of that Jada McDaniels matchup. As a matter of fact, he averaged eight assists per game in only 31 minutes per game against Minnesota. So like I do think that's going to be a big part of it.

He also hunted a lot more threes. That was something he looked to do instead of trying to get downhill where that back pressure could be an issue. would drag out more side to side and look to take more three point shots. And by the way, he shot really well from three in the matchup. I think another part of it too is just trying to keep Conley involved in the action as much as possible. He's just their weakest link defensively and he gives you the best opportunity to try to find like those slip cuts and things like that. They did have some success with that in the regular season. But the biggest one I think that I put in my notes was getting out in transition as much as possible. Just like as many times as you can

over the course of the game, avoiding that half court set where they can load up and bring that physicality where that can be a problem. But again, I think this is going to be the toughest part of the series for Denver. When we get over to Minnesota on offense, I think Denver's in for a much easier type of matchup than what they dealt with with the Lakers. I think that really is going to be the series, in my opinion, is can Denver slow down Minnesota more than Minnesota slows down Denver. And these two things are connected because I love that you brought up, both of the points you just brought up with Denver, I think, are sort of the same point. One, the off ball screening to free up Murray from McDaniels just to create switches. That's big. As is Denver in transition, if you get stops

and you get the other way, you can create cross matches. And that's going to be especially important because I think Minnesota is designed to stop Denver when they have their main guys. And I would throw Nikiel Alexander Walker in there. He's interchangeable in some ways, of what he can do defensively as well. But with their guys and with the right matchups, but if you get a cross-match with Rudy Gobert, and Yokic and it's Denver starters out there, all of a sudden now they're out of sorts of things.

Now Carl Anthony Towns is on Aaron Gordon. He's the weak side guy. McDaniels isn't on him and you get Mike Conley. Now Mike Conley is having to guard Murray through screens and from behind, and Murray is just so comfortable when you put a smaller guy on him. He's one of the best guards in the NBA at playing big and playing through that. So I think it is transition and how Denver generates switches in the half court is going to be a big part of the series because the base defense from Minnesota is as good as the NBA has at guarding Denver. But as soon as you start to mix those pieces around, they lose a lot.

And they're just good at that. And that's why I feel more confident in Denver in this matchup, like in the sense that like Phoenix, I was so frustrated watching film in that series at their process and how many like simple basic basketball reads they missed. to generate close-out opportunities. And I just know Denver's going to be so much more deliberate about that. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

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Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, untrower. filtered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose,

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Join me, Keer Gaines, is we have really. conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search, learn the hard way and listen now. For instance, too, like I think one of the things they can look to do is when Kat is on Yokic, run more screening actions for Yokic to have him catch on the move, where Kat's either in a trail position or he's getting caught on a screen where he can come downhill

at Go Bear. They had a lot of success with that in the regular season. Honestly, one of the things that I think that I think kind of helps prep Yokic for this matchup is the time that Murray missed this season in these matchups, where Yokic had to be really active as a score, and he got a really good look at that specifically. So moving on to Minnesota on offense, so let's just let's start here. I think we're going to see KCP start on Ant, but do you think there are any alternative alternative looks that Denver can go with. Because Anthony Edwards is going to be to me the entire

like the entire swing factor of this series because the player he was in the regular season was somewhere in the, you know, 10 to 15th best player in the world. Regardless of how you feel about aunt in his future and potential blah, blah, blah, whatever, he played like a bona fide top tier MVP superstar against Phoenix. And if he brings that into this round, that that that, that fundamentally changes this type of matchup, right? So like, let's just start with Ant. How do you think Denver is going to confront the Ant problem? Well, I think you're right that they're almost certainly going to try and hope KCP is the answer there. And because there's trickle-down effects from that matchup, which allows Aaron Gordon

to guard Carl Anthony Towns, which allows Aaron Gordon to probably stagger more and play back up center, which is what Denver wants. If that doesn't work and you're forced to bring Aaron Gordon over to guard Anthony Edwards, there's a bunch of other decisions you have to make behind that then to make up for the rotation. But there are two guys on Denver's roster that I think become the swing factor in the series, and that's Christian Brown and Peyton Watson. They were acquired for matchups like this one, not necessarily Anthony Edwards specifically, but they were required.

Calvin Booth stated philosophy was, we already had the offensive part down and probably have it for years to come with Jamal Marie Nikola Yokic. And then, you know, you can find a Michael Porter. You can find a KCP. You can find Aaron Gordon. They happen to have all three, which is great. But you can find guys that can space the floor in the ways that they do. Now you just need length and defense because you need in a playoff series to be able to give a guy multiple looks.

We just said, Nikol Alexander Walker, he can give Jada McDaniels a break every now and then so that you have a well-energized defender on Murray for 48 minutes to the game. The same has to be true for Anthony Edwards. And that means that Christian Brown and Peyton Watson are going to have to be effective. And if you told me right now, I think both of them are capable of being effective against him. I know Minnesota fans will laugh at that. These guys are really good young defenders. But it's also possible that they are not effective on it. him because Anthony Edwards is to your point at MVP, a level player, at least he was in the first

round. So I don't think those guys can stop him, but can they play eight minutes a game collectively on him so that KCP is, you know, is able to play a little bit more aggressively. KCP's so good with his hands. Like Anthony Edwards is going to be able to body him and bully him on straight line drives, closeouts and those types of things. But KCP is so good at forcing you to take bad angles. And the moment you try, Anthony Edwards has a new move. I'm sure you've observed it where he uses the extra step. So you have a pivot foot and he'll pivot and then leave his pivot foot and jump and finish. And Jalen Brunson does this. Sheigel, just Alexander does this. That's a heck of a move for a guy that has his physical tools. But the one thing about

that move is you're off balance when you go to that extra step just for a second before you can elevate. Like you think about a player, they have to almost dip into it. KCP might be the best in the NBA at stealing the ball when players do that. Anytime you try to take that extra step, his hands are so quick. So I think it'll be a good matchup. But Christian Brown, to answer your question, Christian Brown and Peyton Watson are X factors, because if they are a zero impact on him, Denver's in a world of trouble. If they can make a mile to medium impact on him, I think Denver's odds go up quite a bit. Yeah, that long step you're talking about. I'm pretty sure he learned that from Kyle Anderson. I think that might be the guy. I think he might have spent

some time in the lab together figuring that out. And like, I love the point you made about the straight line drives and close outs. Like when I watch tape on this matchup, I hate, hate KCP on Ant in any sort of one-on-one situation, but I love it in ball screens, where it's like more about screen navigation, back pressure, attacking the shooting pocket, things along those lines. And, you know, the alternative look I looked at, there was a post up. We always saw KCP do a pretty solid job on LeBron James, at least until LeBron started trying to go to the post consistently. But like, Kat is just not the type of post threat that LeBron James is. He's just not. and there was a play that I saw on tape where a cat tried to post up KCP and he cleanly stripped him on that kind of like he's just really good at like as soon as anybody goes to their drop step to get to their right shoulder or left shoulder right handed hook he just attacks the shooting pocket and just knocks the ball loose and so I actually think they might be able to in certain situations go to Gordon on aunt as like just kind of like a different look and I pulled some possessions for my film session those of you guys who are listening uh a probably

probably tomorrow morning I'm going to record just a basic kind of film session on the series. You guys can see some visual examples. But I think Gordon can kind of cause some problems for Ant as just like a different type of look. And I think KCP can hold up on cat. I'd be more worried about rebounding in that situation than I would about like having to like deal with scoring. Well, what about the rotation behind it? Because while I agree with you, Denver counts on Aaron Gordon to be the back of center. And in this matchup, they're going to play Nas Reid with the bench.

and they'll probably play Gobert and or Carl Anthony Towns behind it. Denver doesn't have another option there. It's DeAndre Jordan. It's Zeke Naji. I think both of those are very bad options. So if you do use Aaron Gordon on Anthony Edwards, your stagger minute now. You have to find a backup center. And you might also have to find other minutes when Aaron Gordon eventually needs a rest to guard Carl Anthony Towns with the starting lineup. So that's why I don't know if that's an answer I don't look at it as an answer, so to speak, in terms of like a long term look. I'm talking more about like a big moment, you know, key possessions late, you want to prevent a one-on-one matchup where Ant can just go straight to work like that sort of thing. I agree with you. Like,

even above and beyond the part with, uh, uh, the bat, the rotation, also the backline. Like, a huge part to me of why the LeBron AD pick and roll caused Denver problems is when Yokic comes up to the level of the screen and Gordon's pressuring the ball, your two biggest players are 25 feet from the basket or 20 to 25 feet from the basket. And so, when they get the ball past Yokic to the pocket, it was smaller players on the backline. That was what was so genius about the adjustment of putting Gordon on AD is AD can't shoot.

So Gordon was constantly on the backline waiting there. And a big part of the early part of that run when they were down 20 in game two was Gordon bothering LeBron at the rim as a helper. And so I actually, I agree with you. I'm more concerned about it on the backline, which is why I wouldn't do it in a large sample. I'm just talking about like any sort of singular possession where you need a stop.

Don't hate the idea of having of Gordon spent some time on Cat. Now, I think obviously we're going to probably see Gordon on Ant, excuse me. We're going to see Gordon on Cat to start. Yoko Chungo Bear, Michael Porter Jr. on Jaden. One of the things I think is going to be interesting is the pick and roll coverages.

So, for instance, one of the things that Vogel did in the regular season that worked really well on Minnesota but didn't work in the playoffs was he ran like aggressive high drops and hedges with with with tagging the roller against aunt to kind of like play him into his worst ability which is playmaking and then he would play passive like deep drop against conley to bait him into his biggest weakness which is passivity and in his unwillingness to shoot i actually would do that again i i they handled it well against phoenix aunt had a good

playmaking series average like six assists per game and some big moments handled the high drop hedge really well. And Conley just happened to have a really good scoring series where he did some damage to the low drop and actually forced Vogel to adjust out of it into the high drop. Do you agree with that approach, though? Is that how you would start? How would you guard in pick and roll against Ant and Conley individually? I think that the roller has a lot to do with this as well, like who it is that you're rolling to the rim. Denver has played Gobert so many times over the course of this era, and they played him in a playoffs. And one of the things that I think Denver is good at is if you're, if you know,

if you are going to trap the ball, if you're going to hard hedge or if you're going to actually fully trap, Denver usually just hard hedges. But if you're going to hard hedge, you want him to catch the ball outside the paint because he's not the best decision maker there. You compromise yourself up top, but now make him put the ball on the floor and make the extra read. I don't know that you necessarily want to give, you're suggesting that Denver, with Conley, I understand it because you're right.

is how many floaters does he want to take? He's capable of making a lot of them, but how many does he want to take? It doesn't feel natural when that's what's happening. With Anthony Edwards, I'm very curious because you're right that my inclination would be force him into play, force him into decision,

difficult reads. Is pick and roll one pass away difficult read, though? That to me feels pretty easy to make. Those are not the type of ones I think you're going to say, we're going to force him to kick out to the open wing shooter. I think he is beyond that. But there are some secondary things, some secondary reads that I think,

Denver's going to try to force him into that might confuse them a little bit. By the way, this is one difference from the Phoenix series and this one is that Nurkich, Yokic is a significantly smarter pick and roll player just in terms of making you make the hard read. He's not great at stopping the lob or any of that stuff, but he is good at making you hesitate a half second too long before realizing what your read should have been, that in-between game and stunts and things. So Anthony Edwards is an improved playmaker, but I think Yokich is good at making guys second guess themselves, and that'll be an interesting cat and mouse game in the Phoenix was super aggressive at the nail as well. Like, and that did make a lot of really easy reads

where like, it would come off and Nurkich would be in the high drop, but then also Devin Booker would just be ignoring his man like sitting in the driving lane. So you're right, there were like these really easy swing pass reads. I think, I think what it, the way that it should look in my opinion is essentially just making sure you tag from the weak side corner and don't overhelp one pass away. At least make Ant make skip passes, if that makes sense. Now the one thing that opens up, and I pulled an example of this that we'll see on film later on Friday, but when you don't dig down into those driving lanes, one pass away, it puts a lot of pressure on Yokic to catch Ant as he comes off. And there have been

examples where Ant has been able to beat Yokic at the, at the level of the screen. And then when he gets past him, there's not a whole lot on the back line. So, like, yeah, so it could be a little bit tougher, but, like, that's the other thing, too, is, like, you can always,

all, you can always, like, go away from that if, if it's causing problems where he is picking you apart or driving by Yokic. We saw Milwaukee have a really good game against Minnesota earlier this year, where they went deep drop on both guys. And basically said,

beat us with pull-up jumpers and floaters all night long. We're going to just shut off the rim from you. And so I think, I think that's another look that they can go to as well. And I think that's going to be a read and reacting. And really, it's going to come down to, in my opinion, Ants pull-up jumper. Because if he's hitting the pull-up jumper like he did against Phoenix, I don't think you can run the deep drop necessarily. But if he's, if he can kind of regress back to the regular season efficiency he was having there, I think you might be able to get away with that. Um, Jamal Murray on Mike

Conley. Do you, do you think he's going to spend the majority of the time there? I think so because I think it makes the most sense for him to. It's not that that's an easy one. I think physically it might be easy, but even though it's a mental task trying to contain him, but at least physically it's not following Antelon around. And even Jaden McDaniels, who it can be a good slasher,

try to grab some boards. That's a separate challenge. I think with Mike Conley, it's more of a mental challenge. And I think that's what Murray needs right now. And then the other piece of it too is when they go to ball screens that don't involve Gobert. Like you mentioned,

I agree. like you want to make Gobert catch on the role and make him be a decision maker. He's got kind of like stony hands, doesn't make quick decisions has a tendency to miss shots around the rim. However, this is where Aaron Gordon is a huge advantage. I actually think they can switch

a lot of the cat and Nas Reed ball screens to avoid some of the issues that you can run into with pick and pop. As long as it's, as long as as it's Gordon or Watson, and by the way, I didn't get to this earlier, but I loved the point you made about Christian Brown and Peyton Watson. And, you know,

one of the things has been really standing out to me in this postseason so far is just how important athletic superiority is when it's this physical and it's this intense. And just like I thought that was what was fascinating about Bruce Brown as well. It was just like he was just one of the best. He was a wrecking ball athlete and he was able to make a lot of plays there. But when Peyton Watson. And by the way, Gray said Allen going down last round. Look, sons were going to lose that series one way or another. But that was part of why he was so valuable. It was both length and athleticism was needed there. and you take him out and all of a sudden you lose that.

You replace it with a Kogi who's smaller athletic, but he's smaller. And a team that was already cooked got special. Exactly. And the problem with specifically Grayson is like he, he's one of the most important pieces for Phoenix in terms of like getting the ball popping around and getting three and getting three points shots. And then like without Grayson, they just don't get generated enough. The reason it's a whole bunch of issues. But Phoenix is a whole other different set of problems that we have to get into. So the other thing I put in here is playing off their defense.

So like again, Minnesota, they forced Denver into 16 turnovers per game during the regular season. And they dominated points off of turnover, 75 to 50. And so I think just in general, looking at both teams for Minnesota, obviously they can have half court offense issues. And so getting out in transition is going to be a big weapon for them. But also for Denver, they just have to take care of the basketball because that was a consistent issue during the regular season. that's something that they have to avoid. Is there anything else that you have in terms of like X's and those that you wanted to get into from this series?

The offensive rebounding to transition defense is always an interesting question. And your point about Denver turning the ball over and getting offensive rebounds, they need to not turn it over and put pressure on second chance points. Because to your point, if this is a pure half-core, I mean, we've seen games in the NBA this year, eight combined fast break points. Like neither team got it. If that happens in this series, Denver's winning.

I think Minnesota has to generate turnovers, and they also have to get stops and turn those into transition. Two ways you can take care of that is don't turn the ball over and hit the offensive glass so that they are extra scared to get out in transition. They're more concerned with cleaning up the glass. Denver has not been a great offensive rebounding team. I do think there is scenarios where, again, especially in transition when you get cross matches, can you bring Gobert outside the three point line?

because he wants to be on Aaron Gordon, just roaming the paint, and now he gets to do that. But you get a cross-match, and all of a sudden he's out on the perimeter. Aaron Gordon can eat in those moments. Michael Porter can eat in those moments, and Denver's going to have to capitalize, not just on those cross-matches, but also on the offensive glass behind those cross-match. No, 100% agree. Getting cross-matches by pushing in transition is, like, usually the easiest way to generate an advantage because you don't have to worry about running a screening action early in the shot clock

to try to set up an action that has to take place later in the shot clock. I totally agree with you. So let's get to predictions. And I want you to get into it a little bit how you actually expect the series to flow. But who are you picking? How many games? How do you kind of project the series will flow? I kind of think that this series is going to look like the previous one, different strategy,

all the different things we just talked about. But I think there was a sense of, well, Denver didn't look that good in the last round. And they got through it. I think this is going to be another round where you get into game five and you're thinking, you know, Denver hasn't looked very good in this series yet. Minnesota hasn't necessarily looked very good in the series because I think both of these teams are going to make life hard for the other. One prediction I have is I think both teams are going to lose a home game in the first four games.

I think Denver's going to split and I think Minnesota's going to split. But at the end of the day, a lot of this comes down to Jamal Marie's health. I think Denver is the better team. I think Minnesota is on the come up. They remind me a lot of Denver in 2020 in the bubble where they were just on the edge of being ready but not quite. There are still some flaws and there were still some less. that they had to learn, but they were capable of upsetting teams that were perceived to be better than them. I think Minnesota is much the same. They have an incredible connection, an incredible belief,

and then their bread and butter is, of course, their defense with a superstar and Anthony Edwards. That's a great recipe, but Denver's recipe is tested and proven, and I think that this is a seven-game series that Denver wins. It becomes a three-game series after the two splits, and I think the home teams win, games five, six. You just reminded me of something interesting from the bubble. Do you remember heard the Donovan Mitchell, Jamal Murray, you know, showdown in that in that first round series. Do you remember that? I will never forget that. Do you remember like the way that was discussed after the fact? And it was like, oh, fake shooting in the bubble. This is. And I'm like, like, I talk about vindication. Jamal Murray. You know, I was actually talking about this with a buddy of

mine at the gym today because I, uh, so my, my game, I'm like a score. And I, I rely a lot on tough shot making myself. And so Jamal Murray is like my hero. I love everything about that guy. Like his his combination of footwork and the ability to get to like different types of pull up jump shots from so many different dribble combinations and footwork. I just, I don't think people realize how hard he's had to work to get to that point. Even like that shot that he hit over Austin Reeves, like the one over 80 was tougher because he had to get more separation, but it's a more basic, it's a more basic footwork, just a basic step back for a right-handed shooter going to the right. But that

that one that he hit over Austin, the, the funky, like, start, stop, like, backwards lean that he got to. Like, just, I, I'm, I just love Jamal Murray's, uh, skill set. I think it's super fascinating. And honestly, I, I, you just reminded me, because that 2020 run, I remember everyone was getting undercut. Everyone was like, Jamal Murray's fake shooting, you know, this guy's, everyone's fake. And I, I just feel, I feel like Jamal's been vindicated. But so, one thing real quickly about that series, though, is I actually think Anthony Edwards at this stage of his career, and I love Anthony Edwards. He more mirrors Donovan Mitchell than he does Jamal Murray in this one way. Murray took and made tough shots, but I think had a very good sense of what a good and bad shot was and when a bad shot was needed from the

team. I think Donovan Mitchell doesn't quite understand. Even now, I don't think Donovan Mitchell always understands when it's time for the tough shot Donovan and when it's time for not that, try to find something else. And I think Anthony Edwards, I love him. And I don't think this has anything to do with selfishness. But I think he is still learning that lesson. Because there are still shots he takes, including in key moments where you go, not that one there. Like, two minutes to go, it's a tie game. You've got to find the better thing. You had 10 more seconds on the clock to get to that shot.

And I think that's one difference between them. But obviously, Anthony Edwards, I think a different caliber of player, at least has been over the last regular season and postseason. No, I totally agree. Like, I think, I think Donovan Mitchell's biggest weakness is game management, meaning like just kind of understanding and feeling the flow of a game. It was actually a big part of why I picked the Knicks over the Cavs last year. I was just like, Jaylen Brunson's a better game manager. He's just going to have a better feel for when to be aggressive,

when to be passive, so on and so forth. So what I find, what I find specifically fascinating about Ant is like I saw the same thing in my film sessions today. Like he shot really well in the one clutch game they had, which was game four. Clutch basketball was a huge problem for the Timberwolves

in the regular season. Like just an absolute catastrophic. problem. They were awful on both ends of the floor. I want to say their offensive rating was like 104 in their in their defense rating was like 118 or 119 or something like that. But in the last game, the game in early April, the one that was like for the one seed, which by the way, like home court advantage is a huge part of this series, which I'll get to in a second. But the,

uh, A had checked back into the game in the middle of fourth quarter. Denver was on their run. They went up like seven or something. It came off of a ball screen and Jamal Murray switched out high on him. And it was like, 12 on the shot clock and he just took like a really bad pull-up three. And I remember just being like, why? And it's kind of funny because like to me, the guy that aunt reminds me a lot of in terms of like approach is actually like Jason Tatum.

But the difference between the two is ants just way more of an alpha dog personality. And Tatum, and the reason why I compare the two of them is both of them for being guys that are big, strong athletes take way too many pull-up jumpers. Like, Jamal Murray, Jamal Murray does it because he's Jamal Murray. And he's not exceptionally, you know, athletic for his position. But like literally Tatum and Aunt, they settle for so many pull up jumpers. But the biggest difference between the two is Ant's got that alpha dog mentality. And then two, for whatever reason, Aunt gets into the postseason and those pull-up jumpers just go in.

They just do for whatever, for whatever reason they do what he gets to the postseason. And for the record, he shot pretty well against Denver last year on his on his pull-up jumper. But like, yeah, I agree with you. Decision making is going to be a huge piece for Ant in this series. And that's the biggest swing factor. If he, if he, if it goes. back to regular season, and I think the series is over five. Like I think this is going to be, I think they're going to get them out of here quickly.

Any hope at a long series, I think kind of hinges on ant maintaining his current level. Now, as far as the flow of the series, this is why I thought home court advantage was so important. I do believe in like adjusting to a different matchup. I think Denver does this to teams where you go playing like a specific type of basketball and then you run into Denver and you're like, wow, this is very different. You know what I mean?

And the same thing for the Golden State Warriors. You play a bunch of teams. And then all of a sudden you're playing that Golden State blender and you just get caught off guard. And I think Minnesota has a little bit of that on the defensive end of the floor where there's like a little bit of an adjustment period. And had Minnesota got home court advantage,

I think there was actually, there would have actually been a decent chance for them to try to jump Denver early in the series while they're adjusting. But having those first two games in Denver, I think is key. Because if they do happen to go to, I think the series is over. and I think that they have a better opportunity to do that at home,

where they have famously the best home court advantage in NBA history with the elevation, right? I think that's a big piece of this. I'm going to still, I'm going to go in six just because I think a Minnesota's defense will keep every game close. But I don't think Minnesota has that much of a chance to win this series simply because their biggest weakness is Denver's biggest strength. their biggest weakness is execution in the half court. Their biggest strength for Denver is execution in the half court. I do think Minnesota's defense will keep games close, but kind of like what happened in that late April game,

I just think Denver is going to out-execute them late. The picking them in six, by the way, I don't really like picking in the number of games. I think it's so pointless because it's like, every series has like a weird game. It's like the Nick Sixers series has had two of them, Denver, L.A. clutch shooting,

like a one clutch shot or one. one bad call could swing a game in a playoff series. So it's more just how much of a chance does a team have to win? And I'm more, I'm more, I, I more or less give Minnesota the same chance that the Lakers had. I, I just think, I think that their, I think that their weakness is going to be a significant problem in the series. We didn't see it against Phoenix. Most of those games weren't close. And by game four, there was no pressure because you're up three O. So if you lose that series, who cares? And so, like, I think Denver is going to grind these games down into the mud at the end. And I think it's going to shine a light on some of the offensive limitations for Minnesota.

And so I think Denver is going to win how many games, who cares? But, like, I don't really see Minnesota as having that much of a chance. Before we get out of here, go ahead. Real quickly, you mentioned, I just, I wanted to give one note here because I think it's interesting. But I believe in hyperfocus. I think there are people that are hyperfocusers. And I think Anthony Edwards, Nikola Yokic and Jamal Marie are all this. And what I mean by that is you think about rock climbers who, you know, on the edge of a cliff with life and death situation somehow gets them to be the best version of themselves.

And they are almost addicted to that feeling. When we talk, we always talk about clutches, do these guys make shots? With Murray and Yokic, they make shots, but they also make reeds. They just, the mistakes go away in the clutch for those two guys. And I think it's just because, whatever it is, the pressure brings their focus up a level. I think Anthony Edwards is the exact same. So when you talk about in the regular season, clutch numbers, this or that,

I think that Timberwolves are a little bit better or will be a little bit better in the postseason as a clutch team, just on the fact that I think Anthony Edwards shoots 5% better and makes 5% better reads in those moments because he seems to me to be a hyperfocer when I watch. That's super interesting. And again, that kind of brings you back to what we talked about earlier as it pertains to which version of ant are we getting.

Because like, you know, I don't think people realize when we saw from Ant in the last round. Like, he, he didn't just beat Phoenix. He snatched their soul. Like, it was like the most mental and physical, dominant series I've seen from a young player in a very long time. And I don't know about you. I've always believed in Ant's ceiling.

I just didn't think it would happen this soon. I thought we were, I thought we were two, three years away from him being able to do this sort of thing. And like, so I actually, I have two, I have two like first takey basketball topics for you before we get out of here. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

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I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history.

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Open your free, our heart radio app, search learn the hard way and listen now. So the first one, I got a mailbag question last night, and in a very reactionary way, I said aunt immediately,

but after thinking about it more, I still think I might lean aunt, but I'm curious to hear your perspective. Who would you have on your basketball team for a playoff series starting tomorrow, Anthony Edwards or Jason Taylor? Oh, Anthony Edwards. For me, this one was actually not the house.

So it was for me too. And I'm looking for, for, and look, I probably am a little too low on Tatum, but you said something and guys use the language, alpha, this or that. I almost feel like it's something misleading. This is why I almost like hyper-focusing. Anthony Edwards won as a super competitor. That's clear. I think he has charisma, which is weirdly important in basketball, because everybody's looking

at you when you're the guy. And some guys have the charisma to be like, guys, I got it. Don't worry, I got it. And I think Ant is that guy and I think Tatum's not. Tatum's a great player. But I don't know he's a guy that in the last 30 seconds you look at. Murray got the ball with 16 seconds left in game five of that series. 19,000 people in the arena.

Everybody knew if he gets a clean look, it's going in. No question about it. And I think that Tatum for as great as he is, and it's just clearly to me in a different caliber and that one quality. And that's such an important quality when you're the leader of a basketball team. No, I 100% agree. And I said the same thing last night. Like I just think he's so much more of a dominant personality.

but even just on a basketball level, part of the reason why Tatum, I think, struggles in late game situations to try to generate shots. I don't think... Tatum is big and strong and he's very athletic,

but he doesn't have a great first step. And so he actually... He's actually not particularly great at getting to his spots. And Anthony Edwards... Anthony Edwards, I think, is one of those supreme, transcendently great.

generational athletes that can consistently get to stops. And one of the, or get to spots. And one of the things that I thought actually manifests in the, in the numbers on this, on this front of things is so far in Anthony Edwards' career, every single playoff run, he's been over 60% true shooting.

And this year he's at 65% true shooting. Tatum has never had a playoff run over 60% true shooting. Now, obviously totally different sample sizes. And Tatum has made it to later rounds where the pressure and the quality of competition goes up. So I'm not trying to call that apples to apples. but I do think Ants efficiency in the postseason is a really strong indicator of his athleticism

being kind of like a differentiator at this level. I think he's got defenders so much on their heels worried about the drive that he can just get great separation on these pull-up jumpers. All right, second one. Because I'm going to eventually get in trouble for that last one as soon as Celtics fans get a hold of it. We'll see.

Secondly, I've been getting reamed on Twitter all day today because I said, I think Yokic has the highest floor that I've ever seen in a basketball player. And basically my reasoning was simple. Like, LeBron, I think is a very high floor player too. And to me, high floor is like on a night and night out basis, how reliably great is this person? Forget about like variants just on a night and night out basis. What are the dependable things that this player brings to the table? And like counter examples are guys like PG and James Hardin where it's like for whatever reason in really big games when the intensity and physicality go up a level.

it's almost like the opposite. It's almost like they can't impact winning the way that they typically do. And for me, the differentiator for Yokic is he's so big that even when he's not as engaged defensively as he needs to be, he's just dominant on the defensive glass. And we literally saw for the Sons and Lakers how not being able to close out defensive possessions with a rebound can cost you a series. Gordon over LeBron literally was a huge part of them winning that game five. The Timberwolves grabbed 40% of their own misses against the sun.

So we know that defensive rebounding brings value. And then on the other end of the floor, I just think Yokic can generate quality shots on a possession by possession basis, regardless of whether or not he's personally hitting, that I think makes his floor extremely high. And so do you agree with me? And who would you,

if you had to come up with a guy who would compete with him for that spot, who would it be? Such a good question. And here's how I look at it with LeBron, because everybody, you know, the thing with LeBron, and the game is evolved. But the thing with LeBron was he makes his team, made better. I think that is only mostly true, not fully true. There were players that he did not

make better that didn't fit the LeBron system. You know, okay, Kevin Love maybe had to sacrifice more than he received from LeBron and in Bosch and some of these other guys, spot up shooters, role, guys that had a more limited role. I think Yokic is a multiplier, a rare example of a multiplier. What I mean by that is one of his best, he's a great individual player, score, all those different things he's great at it. But one of the things about Yoke is that whatever your skill set is, and it doesn't matter, he's played with a wide variety of players. Whatever it is, he has a skill that fits that in a way that not even LeBron necessarily had that. LeBron had his style and you fit to it. He's going to make you better. But with Yokic,

it's, oh, you, Reggie Jackson, you run this style of offense, KCP, you do this, Aaron Gordon, you do this. Whatever it is, he molds his game to it. And I think the same is true then when you talk about what defense do you throw at him. Whatever defense you throw, he has something in his tool bag to mold around that and to form himself around that in a way that's even different than lebron lebron more dominant more overwhelming more of a sledgehammer and the things he was capable of doing but yokic is like a multi multi tool there's a tool in his bag for every situation and to me i like the way you framed it i think knowing who the greatest player of all time is or ranking players to me it's so fun to do it's a fun mental exercise but at the end of the

day it's impossible it's not it's not logical to get that but when you talk about floors. There is more logic to it because I do, I think that Yokic fits with every two-man game you could possibly throw at him. Throw a player out there, Jalen Brunson, Luca Danschich, Damian Lillard. Yokic has something in his game that would fit perfectly with those guys. And that's why I would agree with you about him being this floor. Yeah. And you know, one of the things that LeBron fans were saying on Twitter today is like, oh, well, his athleticism gives him an extremely high floor. And I do agree within the context of the post-season. I do agree within the context of the postseason. But like, trust me, as a LeBron fan, I watched just about every game he

played over the course of his career. And basically from about 2015, which by the way, he was 30, it's not like we're talking about his tail end of his prime. From about 2015 to this day, LeBron was an inconsistent effort guy in the regular season. And it doesn't matter how athletic he is if he's not got if he doesn't have his foot down to the metal, you know, a pedal to the metal, so to speak, right? So like one of the things that's interesting to me about, Yokic is like, it doesn't matter how much he's engaging himself physically. Like, as soon as you get in the half court, he's just giant. And that, and that makes it so that even when he's not necessarily sprinting and moving as

much as he normally does, there's a certain, like, physical imposition he has over the 82 that that LeBron didn't have in terms of, in terms of his night and night out impact. And so, like, again, like, in terms of day one of the regular season to game seven of the NBA finals and everything in between and who had the most consistent high floor of any individual player that I've seen, I lean towards Yokic. I just, I think. And size matters because like, think about Draymond Green, the greatest small ball center in the history of basketball, most likely rendered useless against Yokic defensively. I mean, by his own admission, you know, has nothing for him. And so LeBron's athleticism, I think, is canceled in many ways by Yokuch's size, at least on the

offensive end because Yokichi's size, you need somebody at least 611, even throwing a guy 610 at him, like a Shengoon or something, even throwing a guy that's just a little bit below true center size, it's just it's hopeless in the same way that if you threw an unathletic guy on LeBron, and again, the defensive rebounding piece, like I, like so many of the LeBron fans were like, he's not nearly as good defensively. And it's like, yeah, I agree. And LeBron's prime, obviously was a much better defensive player. But like, there is a floor that comes from the ability to close out every single defensive possession with the defensive rebound. Like, again, until you've rooted for a team that can't close out possessions,

you don't really realize how valuable that is, but it is so immensely valuable. And the dead giveaway, and this is the last thing I'll say about it. After game five, Lakers were doing a lot of damage in pick and roll. AD was doing, like, over the course of the series, like the, the Lakers had some success attacking Yokic, but Michael Malone gave Yokic the defensive player of the game necklace, chain thing. And he immediately said 18 defensive rebounds, you get the thing. And I was like,

he gets it. Like, he just gets it. He understands. He understands it like this. Because like, I can just, I can't tell you how many times in that series, I'd watch a shot go up and I'd watch AD or Rui crash and they just couldn't get it. They just couldn't get it. Like it just, you weren't

getting it. Like it was like, and I watched those same guys do that damage. Cresches you. And like, it's almost, they almost look like they're completely over when they're trying to go over the top of him to get the rebound. But Adam, go ahead. And by the way, defense and offense are combined. So the scariest guy, LeBron's the greatest transition player probably ever, Yokes right there.

He grabs the rebound and the gap between defense and offense blurs because all of a sudden now it's like, oh, crap, not only are we have to get back on defense, but here comes the seven foot point guard full speed ahead. And conditioning, by the way, also a part of athleticism. Athleticism, everybody knows this, but this is another one where we overlook it. Yokic wears Anthony Davis down.

He wears DeAndre Aiton. He wears every center down because of his athleticism, which is in his case, is endurance and strength. No, 100% agree. I can't tell you how many times I did like a tweet with some film clips where I'm like, here's Yokic beating AD down the floor again. Like here's all these different things.

You know, I vividly remember a game a couple of years ago where Denver won in Philly. It was one of the first like kind of Embed versus Yokitch showdowns. And I remember like everyone was looking at the stat sheet and B'd had these massive numbers. But then Yokic literally won the game. This was the game. I don't know

if you remember. This was the game where Bones Highland got hot from three. Do you remember this one? Yeah. Okay. So and he had like two or three like 30 footers in the second half, if I remember correctly. But like, but Yokic was dominating that game because he understood that Philly was a bad transition defense.

And it was just cleaning up the defensive glass and throwing kick ahead passes. And just literally those two things generated enough offense for Denver to get a win. But Adam, this was fun. We could have talked all day, of course. But I sincerely appreciate you taking the time. Why don't you tell everybody what you're working on these days? Well, I appreciate you having me on.

Love the channel. Love what you're doing. I'm on All-MBA podcast four times a week with Tim Legler on YouTube. And the DNVR Nuggets. If you want more Nuggets, fun post-game analysis, we go live on D&BR Nuggets on YouTube right after Nuggets. Yeah, guys, make sure you get over there and support those channels. As always, we sincerely appreciate you for supporting us. This is going to be a really fun series and looking forward to it.

Everybody, have a good night. We will see you tomorrow morning. Of all you. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

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