The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - SGA, Chet, & Thunder EVEN UP Finals vs Pacers + Major checkpoints through 4 games

Episode Date: June 15, 2025

Jason dives into game 4 of the NBA Finals between the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Indiana Pacers. Jason discusses Thunder stars Shai Gilgeous-Alexander & Chet Holmgren's impact in the 4th quarter & how OKC's defense is impossible to penetrate when they are locked in. Jason also responds to mailbag questions regarding Pascal Siakim being the Pacers go-to guy, if Kevin Durant is a good fit for the Dallas Mavericks, and his thoughts on the 1v1 matchup against former NBA players Michael Beasley & Lance Stephenson.   #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I want to kind of zoom out after the first four games and talk about some of the big picture dynamics that are taking place. After that, I want to talk a little bit about the future of the series. And then we have a handful of mailbag questions, a couple geared around this series. And then a few geared around some other stuff around the rest of the league. I also want to talk a little bit about the reps and make sure that we separate, you know, some of the discussion around the rules of engagement and some of the realities as to like whether or not Indiana got screwed. There's been a lot of clips going around this morning

with people complaining about some of the physicality from Oklahoma City throughout the game. I think the rules of engagement have been pretty clear throughout this entire postseason. And Indiana is just failing the exact same test that everyone else has failed. And so I want to give OKC some credit and make sure that we separate the, you know, some big picture discussions about the state of the NBA as it pertains to officiating from whether or not this series has been fair, because I do believe it has been fair. So we'll be digging into some of those dynamics as well. You guys know the joke before we get started.

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once we get out of the finals, they'll be in the comments underneath the YouTube videos, but until the NBA finals all over are over, I've been doing them through our chats in our post game shows. So whenever we do a post game show, like on Monday, you can just come to the show and drop your questions in the chat, or if I tweet out a question asking for mailbag questions like I did last night.

All right, let's talk some basketball. So major checkpoints through four. games of the NBA finals. I talk a lot about the idea of like different units, right, and whether or not you can shake a unit, meaning like, can your defense rattle the foundation of their offense or vice versa? And there have been some dynamics in this series. I think for both teams in terms of defenses rattling the foundations of offenses, both of these teams are scoring at a rate that is far less efficient than they did during the regular season. But the question is which defense is doing more damage to the other side.

And I think it's Oklahoma City's defense easily. The Pacers had a 118 offensive rating in the first round series against the Milwaukee Bucks. They had a 117 offensive rating in the second round against the Cleveland Cavaliers, a 118 offensive rating in the conference finals against the New York Knicks, and just a 109.8 offensive rating versus the Oklahoma City Thunder. I rewatched the fourth quarter this morning, just trying to familiarize myself with the way with which Oklahoma City came back into that game. And a big part of it was the physicality, which I want to talk about in a little bit when we talk about the officiating.

I'm going to, I was very critical of the big picture NBA officiating issue with like foul grifting and how it kind of messed with the end of a good game last night. But I want to get into the specific dynamic with the physicality and how it's been the rules of engagement for everybody and how Oklahoma City is just, taking advantage of it. I thought that was a big part of it in the fourth quarter. And then obviously the second piece of it, we talked a little bit about this last night. Chet Holmgren was all over the rewatch for me last night in the fourth quarter. Obviously seeing the offensive rebounds again, just, you know, doing something pretty simple, just crashing. Like he just, we just was relentless getting to the front of the rim and just caught pacers in switches or in help situations. There was a play where Nemhard was matched up with him, but Nemhard was kind of digging.

in and helping elsewhere. And like, that's the thing. Like, if you're going to dig in and help and offer attention towards another offensive player, that's attention you're not offering towards your specific matchup, which can offer a little window of distraction, a window of space for you to run in behind and try to make something happen, especially if you're an athlete. And Chet, you know, probably is the best vertical, uh, like natural vertical length and athleticism player on the floor, you know, so like he can actually have to be. high point the ball in those situations and do a good amount of damage. But the big thing was on defense. You know, I've been thinking a lot about this defense. We were talking about it last night on

playback. It's the best defense I've personally ever watched. I think it's what I'll remember most about this team. I'll remember them playing Nicole Yokic into three straight bad games, the types of truly embarrassing performances they've forced all these other guys into last night in the fourth quarter Tyrese Halliburton getting stripped at half court, shooting an air ball on a step back three, getting blocked on a different step back three. Like he just, these, this defense has taken some really good players and made them look feeble relative to what their typical production is. And that's really what, what is the defining characteristic of this Thunder team. But, you know, I talk a lot about when we're talking about like the natural team build, like the best way to build a team. I used to

always go through that like kind of progression where it's like I want a skill guard. I want an athletic guard. I want a slender perimeter oriented forward. I want a bigger, stronger, more versatile big forward at the four spot. And then I want a big. And one of the things that I always talk about with the big is defensive versatility. It has to be a big that can defend in varying different kinds of drop coverages, but also that can defend in switches.

And the reason why is each matchup is going to call for different types. of use from the center position. So for instance, like, let's say you're playing a team that has like a straight up non-shooter on the floor that you're not particularly worried about behind the three point line. Imagine like you're playing the Knicks and it's Josh Hart, for example, right? Like having a guy like that is capable of being rangy around the rim as like a center field or helper at the rim is super valuable.

Chet had a huge helpside rotation in an off ball situation in the fourth quarter against Andrew Nemhard at the basket where, you know, he got over there. He's a touch late, but he got over there and he went vertical. It was a good physical play. I liked the non-call in the moment. It's an example of, uh, of him being in a rangey off ball kind of roaming spot where he can do some damage as a helper, right? Then in different pick and roll coverages, right?

There are certain examples of times when you need a big that can get up to the level. So for instance, an elite pull-up shooter like a Steph Curry. got to show at the level. An elite driver, like Chet would be a great weapon against the Shea Gilders-Alexander because of his ability to show up at the level and to keep the ball in front. One of the big subplots of the series is the damage that Shea has done to Miles Turner and ball screens because when he comes up to the level, he can't keep Shea in front. And then when you have athletes that are downhill threats but that are not elite mid-range

shot makers, then you can run a deeper drop coverage. and that deeper drop coverage gives you the flexibility to be able to sag back into the paint and chase over the top of screens without conceding any sort of shot that is particularly efficient or deadly to your defense. And then lastly, if guys get wiped out by screens, which can happen, especially in super physical playoff games, you need to have a big that can switch out onto the perimeter and get stops. The way that Ched Holmgren did against Aaron Neesmith, or excuse me, Andrew Nemhardt, and Tyrese Halliburton, Mold. multiple times down the stretch of that game.

And that has been a consistent theme in the Oklahoma City wins in this series. Looking back at game two, Chet Holmgren screaming off the screen specifically in switches. Switches, like switching is the ultimate, like it's the answer to every action that any team wants to run because as long as you communicate through it, you can shut down the advantages that come out of that action

because you're just talking to each other instead of fighting through screens. right. But the downside with switching is it puts a lot of pressure on guys defending out of position, right? A big having to defend a small, a small having to defend a big, even on the glass for both bigs and smalls, a quick guy crashing around a big on the perimeter or a big guy pinning a little guy right underneath the basket. There's a lot of those dynamics that can be solved if you have super versatile players, guards that play bigger than they are like a guys like Alex Crusoe, guys like Lou Dord. I think Jalen Williams plays bigger than even his size would lead you to believe. And then you have to have big guys that can play smaller. And like, I think a consistent trend in this entire postseason run has been Chet Holmgren's ability to switch out onto the perimeter and at the very least force you to take a contested off the dribble jump shot. He's not getting beat off the dribble. Like there was a play for Halliburton missed a step back three at the top of the key last night in the fourth quarter. And Halliburton hit him with the moves. And,

And Chet buckled and almost fell, but it doesn't matter because he was overplaying the drive, which is what you need from him. And when you've got super long arms, you can actually be a bigger factor in your recovery, even when you're out of position, both physically and mentally. The arms obviously cause a problem, but it gets in the offensive players head. They change their release a little bit because they think they need to shoot it higher. They think they need to shoot it quicker. And like I just, you know, when I think about this Oklahoma City defense, the, the most obvious thing to grasp to is the depth of perimeter defenders.

And obviously that's a huge part of what they do. Lou George's job on Tyrese Halliburton in the fourth quarter last night. Amazing. Alex Caruso in various matchups and various contacts throughout the series has been amazing. The perimeter defense is big. She goes Alexander last night. We talked about the damage that he did off the ball defensively. in the second half of that game, that's all great, but none of it works. Like, look at Houston where it's like Shangoon ends up being this target that you can go after. If you don't have a big man that can tie it all together with the ability to run every single defensive coverage efficiently and successfully, then you're going to have issues, regardless of what type of perimeter defense you have. And I just wanted to give some love to Chet Holmgren for the job that he did last night. which team has the most reliable half-court action?

We talked about this last night. I won't get too much further into it, but this is the second thing I want to look at, zooming out from a 2-2 series. We saw that bear out last night. Shea's ISOs were super efficient down the stretch, and the Pacers had no idea what to do. So before we get into some of the rest of my,

like, kind of big picture checkpoints, I want to actually skip ahead to one of our mailbag questions. It was brought up in the playback tonight that it feels like Indy doesn't have that guy down the stretch, sort of lax aggression, some sort of hierarchy who's getting shots in crunch time. Who would you empower to be that guy if you're Rick? Or is it just not the Pacers team's way?

And this was in reference to Dom, one of our big Pacers fans who's been coming on Playback. And again, for those of you guys who haven't had a chance to hop over there, it's Playback.tv. We're going live after games and we take callers. And we just have a fun time talking about hoops. And it would be a fun thing for you guys to check out if you haven't had a chance to hop over there yet.

But anyway, Dom was just pointing out like, man, it was just a reminder last night that we just don't have that guy. Now, I would argue that in the future, that's something that the Pacers will have to address. And I think there's a couple of specific directions they can go there. Like, it's looking to me like Neesmith is the, the weakest point in that starting lineup, at least within this series. Kneesmith has been brutal. He hasn't been able to guard either of Shegel, just Alexander or J. Dub at any point in the series.

He was the target down the stretch last night. He was the culprit for a lot of the. foul calls that were killing the Pacers down the stretch. You want a guy like Ben Mathurin to be able to slot into that spot and be able to defend and do all the things that Neesmith does while bringing some more of that off the dribble, get to his spots type of pop. He's younger. He's a few years away. That's a more realistic internal option. I don't think the Pacers can afford to let Ben walk or do anything that involves him potentially leaving the team because he is the one guy that has the upside on the roster to be

come that type of shot maker. Now, in the short term, it's got to be Pascal Seaccom. I, when I rewatched the fourth quarter, there was one play where they actually went to see Ackham to try to initiate offense. It was an ISO, kind of like an attack of ball pressure off the top of the key. He beat his man with a move going towards the left. And when he got into the lane, he kind of got out of whack and a little out of control, which is what happens against good ball pressure and he tried to spin over his left shoulder to throw a kickout pass to an open shooter on the right wing. And Alex Caruso had left that guy and through an aggressive double team and he came in flying with both arms up and he got a deflection and forced to

turn over on Pascal Seacum was an ugly play. But the bigger takeaway there is that was the only play in the fourth quarter where they looked to Seaccom to initiate offense. Now, where I get frustrated by that is like, would it have mattered? Probably not. Oklahoma City is the better team, in my opinion. I think that will continue to bear out over the course of the next two or three games of the series. But you still, Indy does have a chance to win the series. Their chance is in these situations where Oklahoma City really tightens the screws that we know Indiana's defense can do damage to Oklahoma City. I think that's something they did a lot of damaged Oklahoma City's offense last night. But when Oklahoma City really tightens the screws the way they do. They have to find a way for reliable offense. And like,

here's the thing. Tyrese is not going to be able to shake free when Oklahoma City really locks in. Andrew and Emhart, it's not going to be able to do much better than a pretty tough step back midranger when everything gets pretty, when everything gets tight for Oklahoma City at the end of the game. Pascal Seaccom is the one guy who has a true physical advantage to where if you run action for him to get him the ball on the block against a smaller defender, he's going to be able to get to that right shoulder fade away and it's a shot that has a physical reliability to it unlike some of these small guards and some of their attempts to get shots off against these elite perimeter defenders. So to me, in this series, if they end up in that situation again, they have to make a more

intentional effort to just, just run like, think of it like this, run it out of action if you want to, but just have Tyrese Halliburton run like, you know, a pick and pop with Miles Turner at the top of the key where Miles pops to the left corner and run basically a cross screen for run a cross screen for Siakum off of the block towards that same block that Miles Turner is on that side. Have Miles Turner throw the post entry. That way you have Miles Turner's man further away from the basket. You have smaller players and help. Now Siakum's got the ball on the block. You can run the same thing on either block, but basically get Siakum an opportunity to get a deeper post catch. The idea of running the cross screen is if you run the cross screen, is if you run the

cross screen. It gets Siakum's defender into trail position, which allows you a better chance at a post up. If they switch it, just have the cross screener be one of the smalls, like involving Shea Gildes Alexander, right? If Shea is the guy that's in that cross screen, if they switch it and Shea tries to front the post, we saw a couple examples of them try to force that pass over the top and Shea ended up getting the deflection. All you have to do is do a better job of sealing and then swing the ball back towards the middle and then Siakum can seal and create a good angle there for you to throw that pass in. But there was no intentional effort to get the ball to Seacom against mismatches. And that is if you have to come up with a reliable half court action,

something that's going to guarantee get you a decent look in a big spot in this series. I think they've got to lean on Siakum to post a little bit more than they've leaned. blending Vice's signature dynamic storytelling with the high-octane world of sports, Vice Sports brings an exciting and diverse range of programming that goes beyond the game. From action-packed live events to gripping behind-the-scenes documentaries, to hard-hitting investigative pieces and in-depth profiles of athletes, coaches, teams. Vice Sports captures the raw energy, drama, and passion that makes sports truly unforgettable. Catch live events and other exclusive sports programs only on Vice TV.

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Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on Clay. Jenchian won. I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lena Rubakina is arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck.

Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. The other major takeaway that I have as I zoom out from a 2-2 series is that Oklahoma City has proven to be less dependent on jump shooting. They're averaging eight more points in the paint per game. last night a 50 to 36 advantage in points in the paint. Second chance points have been a big swing in big spots in this series. Last night, the Thunder had 23 second chance points,

including eight just in the fourth quarter. Huge difference in that game. That all comes down to those two things, their ability to get dribble penetration and their overall athleticism advantage. We've seen Tyrese, Andrew Nemhart, these guys, when they get head up with Oklahoma, City's guards, they're unable to beat that first guy off the dribble. We've seen T.J. McConnell

be able to do it. He's not on the floor in that big spot late. We've seen Ben Matherin be able to come off of ball screens and get to pull up jump shots or to be able to attack a guy's chest and get into the lane. He wasn't on the floor until Nees Smith fouled out. But in terms of the starting lineup, Tyrese isn't going to get dribble penetration, you know, against a one, against a really locked in Oklahoma City defense very often. neither is Nemhard, neither is knee smit. Like that lineup struggles, whereas on the Oklahoma City side, like J. Dub and Shay at the very least can probe and get into the paint, basically whenever they want,

which causes all sorts of issues, even just Shay and the attention that gets thrown his way on ISOs is part of the reason why we saw as many offensive rebounds as we did. We talked about that earlier with Chet beating Nemhart in like a nail help situation. But that has been a significant trend in this series to me is like the physical advantages for Oklahoma City has manifested in more reliable scoring that is less dependent on jumpshot result. Last night, they generated 11 catch and shoot jump shots total and won that game. Indiana generated substantially more catch and shoot shots and shot a little better on them. And it just, it just didn't matter because of the fact that Oklahoma City consistently generate stuff

right at the room. We've seen examples of teams that have been able to flip that script. I mean, the most significant ones that I can think of are the Boston Celtics. in 2024. You know, Golden State always generated more points in the paint than people realize but Steph Curry is a guy that has had success despite having a bit of variance in his game, but more than more than the vast majority of the time when we get back in NBA history, it's reliable stuff close to the basket that ends up winning championships. It's Yokic in 2023. It's Janus in 2021. It's LeBron and AD in 2020, right? Even Quay Leonard brings a lot of that like short range shot making with physicality that like Shea Gildes Alexander does.

Pascal Seacom obviously was such a big part of that 2019 playoff run. Like having that reliable stuff at the basket that's less dependent on jump shot result and variance is going to go a long way towards helping you win in the later rounds of the NBA playoffs. All right. So I have I want to talk about the refs for a minute. And then we have two non-finals questions and then we'll get out of here for the day. There's this. narrative going around that I saw this morning. And this is, you know, this is where I get separated from the ref discussion. There was a narrative going around this morning that the Pacers basically got screwed. And the, the big clip that's going around is that last little

half court turnover they had where Turner's trying to do a dribble pitch with Halliburton out around half court. And Dort is like just holding him and grabbing him and pushing him as he's trying to get to the ball, and it ends up leading to a turnover. So I want to set that aside for a second and say, what I was complaining about last night has to do with the aesthetics of the NBA. I think it looks ridiculous to let Shea push off and not go by the letter of the law and be like, this is just physical basketball. but then every little tiny bit of contact that involves him with his jump shot,

we're going to send him to the line for, right? Including that grift around the foul line and then the step through where knee Smith got him on the forearm. Again, by the book, all of those are fouls. And so I don't like the mis, like the unbalanced appropriation of that or the application, the unbalanced application of the rulebook where we're allowing Shea to be super physical against the defender to get separation. But then when the defender actually stays attached to Shea, they're not allowed to touch Shea.

I think that that makes for a bad television product. And in general, we had a highly entertaining finals game last night that ended with a parade to the foul line. So I just don't think it's good TV. I personally would like to see the league take steps to basically never, ever reward a non-basketball play with free throws, ever, ever. Like, even if you're in the penalty, if the guy's got his hand on his arm and you do that janky ass, pull up, great, nice job, side out of bounds. You're not getting free throws for taking a non-basket shot. That is a big picture take that I have surrounding the idea of what I would like for officiating to look like in the NBA so we can have less of Luca grifting.

Less of Brunson grifting. Less of Shea Gilder's Alexander grifting. That's what I want because it's bad for television. I'd rather have them fix that. I do not think Indiana got screwed last night. And the reason why is the rules of engagement have been pretty clear and established by the NBA throughout this entire postseason. And I will be able to tie each of these dynamics to specific things that we've discussed

on this show in this postseason run. Okay. So for instance, let's talk about the, let's talk about like the bump foul that J. Dub got out of a timeout in the second half. That was a part of a of an initial push by Oklahoma City or Shay's like step through touch foul, that kind of stuff. Okay. We talked about, if you guys remember in the Minnesota series, I tweeted out a clip of Alex Crusoe guarding Anthony Edwards. And we discussed this clip on the show. And in it I talked about how Alex was being super hand.

and forward physical with Alex out, or excuse me, with, uh, uh, aunt out on the perimeter. And he is super hands. He's like grabbing him, holding him doing all that kind of stuff. And then Ant breaks Alex off with a pretty nasty move. And when he breaks him off, he gets an angle. As soon as he gets an angle, Alex goes hands off. And he's up high and he's sliding his feet and he's taking contact in the chest and ends up getting in the lane and making like a really nifty reverse layout that Alex tries to get to in time. He just barely misses it. Really nice bucket from Ant. But I want to call attention to Alex Caruso understanding the rules of engagement. The NBA has allowed throughout this entire postseason run a ton of hands on contact when you

are squared up with the on ball guy. But when you get an angle, all postseason, they've been calling a lot more of that contact. In the last two rounds, it's been a little bit less of like the lane line bump foul, but we did see that. We've seen it a couple times in the series. J. Dub got one last night. There was one that, I think it was Tyrese. I can't remember Alex Caruso had one in this series on Obie Toppin.

The lane line bump foul is still something we've seen a few times in this series, but it's been called a little bit less. But for the most part, throughout this postseason run, if you're squared up, you're allowed to be handsy. If you give up an angle, get those hands off. That's been the way they've called it. I don't like it in the context of some of the grifty stuff they've allowed, but they've been somewhat consistent in the way that they've allowed contact

on the perimeter versus contact on drive. So like, we know what the rules of engagement are. Similarly, off ball. What have I said nonstop regarding Steph Curry in the way that the Houston Rockets guarded him? And the way that the Timberwolves were going to guard him, if he didn't hurt himself. And looking back towards the regular season and every single time that Steph has ended up

in like a high leverage playoff moment, Warriors fans constantly complain about what? The grabbing and holding of Steph off ball. Off ball, the NBA has allowed a shit ton of contact in this entire postseason run. So, for instance, if Tyrese Halliburton wants to work more out of dribble pitches, meaning if he doesn't want to dribble the ball into the screen,

but he wants to have come flying off that screen with Turner, he's got to understand there's going to be a lot more contact allowed there. Because throughout this entire postseason run, if you are off the ball cutting to end from the basketball, they are letting you be hansy. So what is Lou Dork doing there? Yeah, he's Falun Tyreys by the book. But the NBA has established as part of their rules of engagement in this postseason

that they're allowing a lot of off ball grabbing and holding. holding and pushing. So like here's the thing. Did I think it was ugly that they let Shea get away with a push off while sending him to the free throw line on some really ticky tack shot attempts? Yeah, it's not good television, but it kind of falls in line with what they've been doing in this entire postseason run. If you are a well coached team, which I think the Pacers are, if you are a basketball team going into any series in this playoff run should be talking to their guys and being like, hey, listen, when you're on the perimeter, you can be physical, but once you give up that angle, get the hands off. That's when they're getting tight with the whistle. Or, hey,

if we're running off ball action, you guys need to be prepared for physicality. This is part of the issue that we're going to run into. We're going to have to be really careful with our handoffs, with our backdoor cut passes in those situations. We saw another one last night. How many times in this series in the last two games have we seen Oklahoma City turn the ball over? Because, because Indiana's bear hugging a dude in a full denial and they try to back cut out of it. And a thunder player will throw a back cut pass. And that guy will be being held. And so he can't get to the ball in time. And so the Pacers beat him to the ball. And now they're running out the other way. That's the exact same thing hurting the thunder. They are being physical in their off ball defense on both ends of the floor.

And so again, I have my frustrations. I hope the league works over the coming years to get rid of some of this non-basketball junk. I want to see Shea Gilders-Alexander win the title making shots like the three he hit on the right wing. I said this last night. I'm cool with the push off. Let Shea push off. If defenders are going to be handsy on the ball, Shea should be able to be handsy back. Like I am like pro push off. You just can't not. call the push off and then also call the tickey tag stuff. It's bad television. I agree. But all of it falls in line in general with what the league has allowed throughout this postseason run. Oklahoma City is taking those rules of engagement, playing smartly within them and leveraging that to win postseason games. And I've seen a lot of people just complaining about it on the other side instead of doing the same. And I would argue the Pacers have benefited from it in their own

away like we discussed earlier. So again, let's separate conversations about the state of the NBA and officiating from, oh, fairness and getting screwed or whatever. The Pacers lost to the Thunder last night because they couldn't score on them. And same thing happened to Minnesota and the same thing happened to Denver. It's ultimately the demon that has to be conquered if you're going to beat the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Thunder have just maximized what you can do in terms of defense within the context of what the league is allowing in this postseason run. All right, two more quick mailbag questions, and then we'll get out of here for the day. Do you think Dallas is a good destination for Kevin Durant if they can keep Cooper flag?

So it gets tricky because you're already super deep at Ford. So like if you look at the Mav's current roster, you have lively Gafford in AD. So you have three guys that can basically play the five. And then you have PJ Washington and you have Cooper flag. It's just a glut of front court players. It's five guys that all can play like a star. role on a on any team in the NBA that play either the four or the five. And so that makes it particularly tough in terms of like trying to balance the roster by bringing in another power forward.

Now speaking strictly from the basketball, I like KD's fit with Anthony Davis. Anthony Davis, this phase in his career is like a pretty big and strong center. So I like that like physicality fit better than I like KD with like a Victor Wemanniama, for example. I love the idea of a KD a back line in terms of defense, the ability to have Anthony Davis come up to the level in ball screens, which has always been one of his elite traits. He's very good at contesting there. He's very good at switching there.

While KD can be the low man that kind of operates on the backside, he's the type of offensive player that they need. All of that makes a ton of sense. It's just a simple question of timeline, right? So like, are you going to continue to dive into this older timeline with Anthony Davis and an injured Kyrie Irving, and potentially a Kevin Durant. Are you going to lean into this younger timeline

where you've got some guys that are in their 20s like Daniel Gafford and PJ Washington and super young players that are on the rise like Derek lively and like Derek lively and a Cooper flag and obviously guards like Jaden Hardy. Like there is a there is a up and coming generation of Mavs young players and you've got to at a certain point pick a timeline. I mean, we've just seen, we saw Golden State try to do the two timelines thing. And it just

has led to a lot of frustration in the last few years as they've watched their young guys all of a sudden become do a ton of money, which has changed their value and trade conversations. It just gets tough. And so my thing is like, okay, if you want to get, get KD and commit to like a Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving core, sure, go ahead. But like at a certain point, you got to pick. you're going to go for the future with Cooper or are you going to go for the now? And I think if you try to split the difference, you're going to end up with a mediocre team now and a mediocre team in the future. The guys that you have are valuable. If you can get Kyrie back out onto the floor and get him playing and get him demonstrating that his knee is good and that he's ready to play, you can trade

him and get value for him. Same thing goes for Anthony Davis. Same thing goes for some of the depth that they have guys like KeeJ Washington that don't make a ton of sense on a Cooper flag team. Daniel Gafford that doesn't make a ton of sense on a Derek lively team. There are guys that Dallas can flip to bring in a bunch of draft compensation and then open things up for Cooper Flag to be able to slowly work himself into the NBA player that he wants to be. I'm okay with them starting the year with this current roster. There's no reason to trade everybody right now.

Anthony Davis's value is lower because he was hurt. Kyrie's value is lower because he's hurt. Bring everybody back. Go into camp. Be a funky, weird team that's too. in the front court and has a, you know, kind of a few redundancies on the roster, but just be the best most fun team you can be until these guys kind of get to the point where they rehab their trade value. And when they do, then you can make that decision. And

who knows? Like maybe Kyrie and Anthony Davis both look amazing and like Kyrie comes back in less than a year and manages to come back, you know, an all-star break or something next year. And he looks like Kyrie and AD looks like AD and you look like the super deep elite defense. and all of a sudden you can, you know, let Cooper Flagg slowly work his way into the player. He's going to become on a competing team. But it's just I just don't think I would throw all the chips in the bag for Kevin Durant at this point. I think that that kind of messes with the timeline for Dallas. And I think that's a big part of why they haven't been as mentioned.

I still, I've seen the reporting. It looks like there's still several teams involved, but it looks like Minnesota is becoming a more realistic destination. Minnesota to me is my favorite Kevin Durant Minnesota is my favorite Kevin Durant destination by far. I just think that he is super fun with Ant. I think he compliments that team in every way. I think they compliment him in every way. It would be a worthy match for a team like Oklahoma City

in a series that I would really like to watch next year. I'm hoping for KD to Minnesota. Last question. This isn't related to the NBA finals, but did you watch the Michael Beasley versus Lance Steve? even one v one. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. I didn't watch the whole video, but I saw highlights. And it reminded me if any of you guys who have ever played like a real one-on-one with some animosity where like both guys are really trying to win and there's been some shit

talk and it kind of feels like pride is on the line, that's what it looks like. But you saw in that Michael Beasley versus Lance Stevenson, it gets super physical to the point of like being borderline, just a rugby match. And it gets super intense. And it ultimately comes down to which guy can through physicality get to spots. And so I'm not surprised at all that the big strong forward was able to get to his spots more effectively and knock down shots over the top. But I, uh, I remember, uh, being in a couple of examples of, of like, kind of like, like, contentious one on ones like that. I had one with a college teammate when I was at Arizona Christian that was we were actually joking about it with each other over Instagram

messaging to each other like a couple months ago. But like it was very similar. We got into it a few times of practice and then we were like, you know, let's play some one on one. And it was like, I remember it being like one of us was bleeding too. Like it was like the most physical game of one on one basketball I've ever played in my entire life because it just becomes so intense when pride is on the line like that. And anybody anybody who's been in that situation knows, exactly what I'm talking about. But when I watched the Michael Beasley versus Lance Stevenson one-on-one, I immediately just got some like some of that, like just deja vu from what that is like. And I think it's fun. I think it's an example of, I don't think it always has to be that contentious. Like,

I think if they did it at All-Star, for instance, with active NBA players, I think it would be less contentious and a little bit more like, you know, both guys kind of easing their way into it. But when you put real money on the line, when you put real pride on the line, one-on-one becomes this blood bath physical sport. And I'm not surprised that Michael Beasley was the guy who won there. And obviously Michael's just one of the more underrated one-on-one players in the history of the league.

He's got stories of him doing damage to so many different players in practice over the years and games over the years. But yeah, I just couldn't help but think back to some of the more contentious one-on-ones that I've been in in my life when I was watching that video. All right, guys, that's all I have for this morning. As always, I sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting me

and supporting the show. We will be back on Monday night for game five of the NBA finals. We'll have a live breakdown on YouTube as well as our normal playback stream. I will see you guys. As always, I appreciate you for listening to

and supporting hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys, you guys, supporting us. But if you could take a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it.

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