The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - Top 5 NBA Finals Stories: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander vs. Haliburton, all-time great DEBATE, TV ratings

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

Jason breaks down his top 5 storylines heading into the NBA Finals between the Oklahoma City Thunder and Indiana Pacers including the Shai Gilgeous-Alexander vs. Tyrese Haliburton matchup, whether it's time to have some all-time great conversations, why the ratings conversation is dumb, and more. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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All right, welcome to Hoops Tonight here at the Volume. Happy Wednesday, everybody. Hope all you guys are having a great week. Well, as promised, today we're going to go through the top five storylines of the 2025 NBA finals. We've talked a lot of basketball over the last couple of days. We're going to get into some of the narratives that are surrounding this series, some of the debates, and some things to keep an eye on in terms of stories to follow in this series.

You guys know the joke before we get started. Subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on Twitter at underscore Jason LT so you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast fee wherever you get your podcast under Hoops Tonight. It's also super helpful if you leave a rating and a review on that front. Jackson is doing great work on our social media feeds, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok, make sure you guys follow us there, and then keep dropping mailbag questions in our YouTube comments so we can get to them in our mailbags throughout the remainder of the

postseason. All right, let's talk some basketball. So the first storyline that I think we've already seen quite a bit of talk surrounding in the week leading up to the finals, just people complaining about small markets and the ratings, right? Like I saw there was kind of already a theme heading into the conference finals. as we had the Knicks alongside a Minnesota Timberwolves team and Oklahoma City Thunder team and an Indiana Pacers team. But this to me is the inevitable part of the NBA cycle. There's a lot of talk about having small markets

and that being the driving force behind low ratings when that simply is not the case. We've seen so many examples of teams in every sport be able to overcome whatever perceived limitations sit in their market to become a very resonant team among NBA fans. Like classic examples we talked about recently. Like Golden State wasn't viewed as that type of team. Steph made them into that type of team.

Cleveland wasn't viewed as that type of team. Cleveland was one of the biggest rating draws in the league for a while because of LeBron James. You build that sort of ratings monster. In the NFL, teams like the Kansas City Chiefs. You think the Kansas City Chiefs were major ratings. draws 10 years ago, this is something that you build through exposure in high stakes moments like this. Very similarly, we remember after MJ retired, there's a phase there where it's like,

oh man, like who's going to be the next guy, who's going to be the next face of the league? But then it just builds in momentum. And all of a sudden it's, okay, here comes Kobe, here comes Shaq, here comes Tim Duncan, here comes LeBron, and all of a sudden we have a very healthy trove of stars to drive the league forward, right? It's all part of that natural kind of ebb We're in a weird spot here. LeBron and Steph are aging out. Some of these younger stars like Tyrese Halliburton and Cheyieldis Alexander don't have a ton of exposure to casual basketball fans yet. This is their opportunity.

It is through playstyle and resonating with people and being the type of culturally resonant basketball force that Steph was, that LeBron was, combined with sustained success in late May, in June, that actually provides the foundation. to have a strong set of ratings moving forward for the league. Again, ultimately the NBA finals, the goal of them, is to showcase the two best teams in the NBA. This series may only have one top five player, maybe only three top 25 players between Siakum and SGA and Tyrese Hallib Burton, depending how you feel about Chet or J-dub. I haven't done my player rankings yet.

Maybe J-Dub lands in the top 25, but like maybe as few as three players than top 25, but it does showcase the best basketball that has been played this season. And specifically within the realm of what works in the modern game, as we've talked about so much, you can increase your offensive efficiency by like roughly 20% every time you push the ball in transition. Pushing the ball in transition is low-hanging fruit that exists in basketball for you to take advantage of.

It is there for everybody. And the Pacers and the Thunder have been two of the best to do that. ball pressure is a simple market inefficiency that makes ball handlers uncomfortable, forces them to work later into the shot clock on offense, potentially forces turnovers by speeding up those players and can lead to easier transition opportunities going the other way. This is low-hanging fruit that is available to everybody in the league, and the Pacers and the Thunder have just been the two best teams at actually taking advantage of it. This is a showcase of the right way to play basketball in the modern NBA,

regardless of who is on your roster. And if you have the ability to replicate these things, you can actually drive more success for your team. And in that case, I find it to be a very interesting series. It's not going to crush in the ratings. It never was going to, but that doesn't mean that teams like this and that players like this can't eventually drive ratings.

If I would have told you in 2008 that in the 2017 NBA finals, we were going to see the Golden State Warriors and the Cleveland Cavaliers, all of you would have been bitching at the time about how it was going to be a low ratings type of situation. That's not the case. These guys can build juggernauts in the ratings with their presence and their ability to capture their hearts and minds of basketball fans. Number two, Tyrese Halliburton and the line of embarrassment perpetuated by this Oklahoma City defense. I've talked a little bit about this on the show over the course of the last couple of weeks, but Oklahoma City has done some serious damage to some really good players in the

postseason run. So I wanted to actually give you guys a rundown of just some of the specific, truly damaging performances their defense has done to some respected players around this league. In the first round, Desmond Bain had a game where he went three for 12 with four turnovers. Another game where he went three for 14 with five turnovers. Jaron Jackson had a game where he went two for 13 with just four points, four points on 13 shots as a power forward in the NBA. In the suite, Weep game. He went just three for 12 from the field. I talked about Nicola Yokic playing three of the worst games of his career in Rapid Secession in that second round series. In that series, in game two, three, and four, Nicole Yokic shot just 33% from the field, just 18% from three, and had

16 turnovers to just 15 assists. How often have we thought of Nicole Yokic as a guy who only makes a third of his shots over a week of basketball games or as a player that has more turnovers than assists. That was the type of damage that Oklahoma City did to Yokic during a stretch where they won two out of three games and regained control of the series. That is the damage they were able to do to the best player in the world. Julius Randall had almost entirely rehabbed his playoff image through what he did through the first two rounds, like on both offense of the floor against the Lakers and then just successfully breaking down Golden State's defense over and over again the way that he did.

He had a two for 11 game for just six points in game two against Oklahoma City. And then in game four, a pivotal game at home where they desperately needed him to be good, he was just one for seven with five points. So this is a long list of really good players that Oklahoma City hasn't just had success against, but is flat out embarrassed. Like even with Yokic in those games, relative to what we usually see from him, that is quite literally the lowest end of the Yokic spectrum that Oklahoma City's defense showed us.

Tyrese Halliburton at various points in his career, especially in the postseason, has shown that when things get really intense in terms of ball pressure and physicality, he can have a problem with maintaining his aggression and engagement in the game. and I think it's very possible in this series that Oklahoma City could bring out some of those really embarrassing stat lines for Tyrese Halliborne. He's susceptible to those under any circumstances

against this particular defense. I think we could be walking away from this series talking very differently about Tyrese Halliburton than we did after the first three series. That is a storyline that we have to keep an eye on. Number three, Shea Gilder's Alexander. if he can finish this off by winning this series and winning finals MVP

is putting together one of the best guard seasons in NBA history. Even if you want to take that guard part and set it aside, to win at least 68 games, to make the All-Star team, to win the scoring title, to make first-team all-MBA, to win MVP of the league, and to tie it off with the finals MVP.

he would be just the second player in NBA history to accomplish all of those things in a single season with just Michael Jordan in 1996 being the other one. Now, there's always a natural pushback to this sort of thing. And I totally understand it. It's just human nature. We start talking about it. It's like, holy shit, this is one of the best seasons in NBA history. And then we all immediately want to start bringing other guys up.

And I totally get that. It was like that. I mean, I'm a LeBron fan. It was like that with LeBron. I remember it was like, oh, my God, he just won his second title. And the jump shots he was hitting against the spurs in game seven and just the way he played down the stretch of game six. And everyone's like, is this the greatest basketball player ever?

And what did we see? We saw this like natural pushback from everybody as it became like, no, no, no, no, make him burn it. Michael Jordan did this. Kobe Bryant did that. And it just becomes part of that, like, natural pushback. I understand that. That's part of the deal. But that doesn't mean we can't acknowledge what we.

we're seeing in the moment. Shea has an extremely talented roster this year. He has one of the more talented rosters in recent NBA history. This would not be as difficult as some other championships that other stars have won. That goes without saying. But over the course of his career, those circumstances will shift. I don't think any player in NBA history has had a more talented roster than Steph Curry did in 2017. But he had another opportunity in 2023. or to 2022, excuse me, to demonstrate that he was capable of leading a championship team that had less talent. That was actually operating at a talent deficit in the NBA finals. And so over the course of Shea's career, we'll see more of those challenges that arise.

Maybe as this Oklahoma City roster gets more expensive. Maybe if he forces his way out to some other team, hoping for greener pastures one day, he ends up on a more limited team that's maybe too star-laden and doesn't have the necessary. depth. There's so many different ways that Shay's career can go. And this is just one part of the story. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to us. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we, how do we actually come up with

the name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. We were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

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The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis, and I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris, every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay. Jenchian win. I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French, me. And she likes Clay.

Listen, Lennar Rabakina is arguably the best player in the world right now, and I actually can win on any surface because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. And yeah, like if he wins the finals this year and has this incredible season put together, but over the course of the rest of his career is underwhelming,

then he's not going to be remembered with MJ. And he's not going to be remembered with Steph and LeBron and Kobe and the greatest guards that have played this league. It's all about sustaining, and it's all about putting all of those feathers in the cap of your story. I talk about this with Steph just a minute ago. Like if Steph only won the two Kevin Durant titles, probably gets remembered differently.

But he didn't. He won two others, right? LeBron, same time. thing. If he only won the 2020 title alongside Anthony Davis, you know, different type of story. If he only won the two titles with the heat, but that's not what happened. We saw in 2016 him overcoming adversity in a different way. In 2013, a couple of seven game series down the stretch of the postseason. That 2020 title clearly his easiest one. It's not the one everyone goes and tells the story about when they're talking about how great LeBron James is.

But in the part of the journey of being a basketball player, there are going to be years when things kind of pan out for you and it goes easier than you're expecting. They're going to be years when things don't go your way and you face more adversity and you have to dig deeper and you have to reach a different level as a player. In this season, things have gone pretty smoothly for Oklahoma City. But even in that context, Shays had one of the greatest seasons in NBA history and he deserves credit for it based solely on the fact that no one's ever done it other than Michael Jordan in 1996. And it would be an excellent first feather in his cap. No one's going to put him as the

second or third best player of all time unless he sustains this for the better part of the next decade. But this is the first step in that direction and it's been an incredibly impressive season from Shagos-Alexander, obviously pending him finishing the deal. Number four, is Oklahoma city, an all-time great team. Now, as I've said multiple times, you do not earn that status, at least not in my book, unless you win multiple championships. For all the reasons that I just said, circumstances change. It's like Boston this year. Boston this year, have a couple of guys get injured, don't play as well as they typically do, right? Porzingus is dealing with an illness. Jalen Brown's knee isn't quite where it used to be, and you run into a tough matchup,

what we didn't think would be a tough matchup, but it ended up being a tough matchup in the second round. And all of a sudden, things were a little tighter. All of a sudden, we had some close games. We didn't have to see Tatum and Brown make super surgical clutch time decisions last year in the postseason in high-stakes situations. This year we did. They didn't do the job.

New York actually beat them, right? It is through multiple seasons that we see teams overcome adversity. It is through multiple seasons that teams can attain that status of being an all-time great team in NBA history. But in this single season, would we consider this to be an all-time great single season in NBA history? Well, they right now are 80 and 18. If they won this series in five games, let's call it, they'd be 84 and 19. in that particular case, that puts them pretty far up the list in terms of best records in single seasons. This postseason run has been pretty impressive for them.

We talked about the Western Conference being an absolute bloodbath, and it was. They were the one team who got a favorable first round matchup. They earned it by winning all of the regular season games that they did. I thought there were seven good Western Conference playoff teams, and obviously Oklahoma City got to play the eighth. But after that, they beat the 2003 chance. the best player in the world, a team that I viewed specifically as a tough matchup for them. And guess what? They brought some adversity to the equation. And we got to see Oklahoma City

overcome that adversity. They were down to one in the series and trailing by eight in the early fourth quarter of game four. They're trailing by nine early in the fourth quarter of game five. They overcame that. That Timberwolves team is a very, very good team that has beat a lot of really good teams. That Timberwolves team beat Kevin Durant, Devin, Booker, and Bradley Beal. They beat Nicola Yokits last year. They beat Luca and LeBron this year. That is a team that has done some damage. And Oklahoma City survived them.

And if they beat this Pacer's team, that's a Pacer's team that just won an Eastern Conference that had two 60-win teams in it. So, Jackson and I were having some fun before the show. We were trying to figure out how we would rank the top five teams since 2010. So I'm calling that like kind of the end of that era when Kobe won his last title in 2010. So I'm going from the 2011 Mavs all the way through to this theoretical 2025 championship Oklahoma City team. If they were to win, where would they rank?

I thought the 2017 Warriors were the obvious number one. That is the most talented roster ever assembled in the history of the NBA. I don't think it's particularly close. They had the second and third best players in the league playing on the same team. They had Clay Thompson, who at the time was one of the high. highest level starters in the league, an elite defensive player, the second best shooter to ever play the game. That was a phase of his career as well when he was really starting to come together as a more consistent playoff performer. Clay Thompson was ridiculous. Dremong Green, the best defensive

player of our era. Andre Gwadala, one of the most gifted role players of our era. The 2017 Warriors clear the field, in my opinion. I think they're the greatest basketball team ever assembled, even counting the 90s Bulls, even counting the 80s Celtics and Lakers. I don't think anyone's come close. I just think they're far and away the best team in NBA history. Simple way to put it, they were in that bloodbath of a Western conference, and they literally swept them. They swept the entire West. They won 15 straight playoff games before the Cavs finally were able to beat them once in a game in Cleveland in game four of that NBA finals run. The 2017 Warriors clear the field. I think there's actually a gap between them and everyone else. Number two for me,

the 2025 Thunder would land right there. Sixty-eight wins. Beating the types of teams they would beat on the way, to me, that clears the other teams that are on this list. Where it gets interesting is starting to talk about those teams. Number three, for me was the 2013 heat. They won 66 games. They were a defending champ, which is another layer to add to this as well. And beating that San Antonio Spurs. They have a back-to-back seven game series in the playoff run.

They beat that Indiana Pacers team in seven in the conference finals. and then they beat that San Antonio Spurs team in seven in the NBA finals. That San Antonio Spurs team is also on this list as the 2014 Spurs. I have them at number four. They beat Dirk's Mavs in the first round. They beat Kevin Durant's Thunder in the conference finals, and they beat LeBron and Dwayne Wade in the Miami Heat in the NBA finals. Not as successful of a regular season.

I think they only won 62 games, but a more impressive playoff run. So I put them on that list. and then the fifth best team since 2011, the 2024 Celtics. Kind of a weak playoff field. They kind of just coasted through and beat everyone. I thought the only real tough teams they played were the Pacers and the Mavs, but they handled both of those teams in four and five games, respectively. But they had an incredibly dominant regular season,

especially statistically, which put them on this list at number five. So, in short, among the last 15 champions, If Oklahoma City closes this deal, I'd put them in second place behind the 2017 Golden State Warriors. Then our last storyline to follow in this series. Is this series a sign that you need to win with depth in the modern NBA? Yes and no. There is more than one way to win a championship. We were talking about this the other night on playback.

There's a bunch of different ways to win any singular basketball game. Don't underestimate Star Impact. Yes, these are deep teams, but hey goes with Alexander, 40 points in the pivotal game four against Minnesota. Multiple games where he was very good in clutch time against the Denver Nuggets. Tyrese Halliburton, three games that he straight up stole with game winners, and one of them that ended up sending the game to overtime. These guys, their singular talent is a big part of why they are where they are. The depth to me is all about that low-hanging fruit.

In order to ball pressure full court for an entire game, in order to push in transition as much as these teams do, in order to capitalize on every little detail in every single possession over the course of a 16-game playoff run, you do need depth. And so, if you have less depth, you can't capitalize on as much low-hanging fruit, that puts more pressure on your start. but we have seen stars carry the load on teams that have, you know,

six or seven players that they trust in their rotation and get it done. So, yes, to me, what it's proven is that death certainly is very valuable in the modern NBA. It's not the end-all, be-all. I don't think the Thunder make the finals without Shea. I don't think the Pacers make the finals without Tyreys Halliborne. If you replace them with like kind of like league average types of players at their position, let's just say, you know, like if we're looking for a kind of like a playmaking guard to fill in for Tyrese Halliburton,

like if you take like Chris Paul at this point in his career, that's not even close to the same team. If you take Shea Gilles and turn him into just a scoring guard, like call it Devin Booker, I don't think the Thunder are nearly as good as they are with Shea Gildes of Alexander right now, right? So don't underestimate the star power and the way that those guys elevate these teams. The low-hanging fruit just helps you win basketball games. And if you have depth, you have a better chance to capitalize on that low-hanging fruit throughout each season and post-season. All right, guys, that's all I have for the show today.

As always, I sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. We have Colin Cowherd coming on with us live after every game in this NBA finals run. We will be live after game one tomorrow night after the final buzzer on YouTube. I hope to see you guys. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast?

Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it. But, you know, tired and sick. Tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy,

not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your performance. podcast. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff

nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Winning on Clay is an art. The rallies are relentless. And at the French Open, only the toughest survive. I'd know. I competed there for decades. Join me, Renee Stubbs, on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast for no nonsense breakdowns of the biggest matches, the toughest players, and the moments that define Roland Garris. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lerner Rabakina is arguably the best player in the world right now.

I actually can win on any surface. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcasts on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed Human.