The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - West contender rankings, LeBron James vs. Donovan Mitchell, Steph Curry's longevity

Episode Date: August 23, 2025

Jason answers mailbag questions from Hoops Tonight listeners on topics including if Kevin Durant is enough of a boost to lift Amen Thompson, Alperen Sengun, and the Houston Rockets over the top compared to Nikola Jokic's Denver Nuggets & Shai Gilgeous Alexander's Oklahoma City Thunder. Then he discusses how he compares Los Angeles Lakers forward LeBron James and Cleveland Cavaliers guard Donovan Mitchell, how Bron and Steph Curry compare, as well as Stephen's impressive longevity for the Golden State Warriors. #VolumeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas.

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A lot of questions surrounding Kevin Durant and the Houston Rockets, some of their big picture potential this year. I really want to do a deep dive into KD and the Rockets today. After that, I got a couple of really interesting questions surrounding Donovan Mitchell, including the question as to whether or not Donovan should be ranked ahead of a guy like LeBron. So we're going to dig into that a little bit. There's some big picture stuff with like LeBron versus Steph in the recent history versus all time. We've got questions surrounding some theoretical Los Angeles Lakers trades, all sorts of interesting stuff to get into today.

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TikTok, make sure you guys follow us there. And then last but not least, if you want to get a question into this mailbag, all you're going to do is go to our full episodes on YouTube. And in the comments, drop mailbag with a colon and then write your question. You can ask questions about absolutely anything to get into the mailbag. We're also highlighting specifically in this series questions that are related to the player rankings list. I'm going to try to get to several of those in here as well. So you disagree with where I have a guy ranked. You think he's too high. You think he's too low. Just tell me where you think he should be ranked. Explain why. Give a little elevator pitch and we'll get into those debates in our Friday mailbags as well.

All right. Let's talk some basketball. So first question, I have been feeling that the rockets aren't real contenders for an overly simplistic reason. KD is too old. When is the last time we saw a player as old as KD be the best player on a championship team. LeBron in 2020 was two years younger than KD will be by next year's playoffs. You have to go back over 40 years to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in 1985 to find a guy at least as old as KD is now. So on a championship team, and its two guys are widely considered to be two of the top three players of all time in LeBron and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. I just don't see KD being that third guy to accomplish this feat. But is this too simplistic. Also, you don't have him ranked as a top 10 player. And it's exceedingly rare to win a

chip without a top 10 player. So this is actually a really interesting topic to me as it pertains to the age of Kevin Durant. How much can he help their offense really? And is there any sort of precedent for this sort of thing, right? And I was actually getting into the Rockets quite a bit. I was having dinner over at Adam Morris's house the other night. You know he covers the nuggets and we just moved up here to Denver. And Adam and his wife have been super kind to my wife and I, helping us feel welcomed as we move to a brand new city. As you can imagine, it's kind of scary and a little bit lonely at times when you uproot your life and you move up to a completely different area, right? And Adam's just been, Adam and his family have just been

super kind to us. But it was fun. We were just sitting out on his patio and looking at the Rocky Mountains and talking some hoops. And we were shooting the shit about the rockets. And one of the things that we were getting into is this idea of how good can the rockets get on offense really, right? Because if you, on the one hand, if you follow a very simple logical pathway, this was an awesome team last year. And they were awesome because they were incredible on defense. And they used that defense to get out in transition to score enough on offense. And they did just enough with Alperin Shangun and Fred Van Vleet to be able to win basketball games. And they locked down the second seat in an incredibly tough Western conference. Their offense,

was abysmal in the half court. They ranked 22nd and half court offense last year, according to cleaning the glass. That's kind of an insane stat, if you think about it, for a team that was a two seed in that crazy Western conference to be 22nd and half court offensive rating, again, according to cleaning the glass. So in theory, if you follow like a basic logical pathway,

you add Kevin Durant to that situation, you substantially improve your biggest weakness and you become a much better basketball team, right? I mean, even if you look at the defense, And I think a lot of people are rightfully talking about how Dylan Brooks is a substantial loss. But I think KD is a very good defender. He's different than Dylan. He's not a guy that you're going to put on the opposing team's best player all game.

But he improves their backline defense. He provides a level of length they don't really have in their starting lineup. And he can switch on to different positions as well. And is actually a very good perimeter defender. We were talking about in the KD ranking video, how good he is defending on an island. So I think Houston is going to be an incredible defense again. So in theory, KD makes them so much better, right? Because he addresses that need.

But I do think it is a bit more complicated than that. For the record, for you all any further, I still see Houston as a top tier contender in the Western Conference. In that group of three with Denver and Oklahoma City and Houston, I view them firmly in that tier. But the things that I'm about to explain are why I view them as a clear third place or a third, like third most likely to actually get out of the conference because of the question mark surrounding them.

Offense is a lot more complicated than defense. Continuity matters. You have to learn how to play together. Denver added some guys, but they're going to be playing the same style of offense with the same core players that they've been playing with for over a half decade now. offense is going to come easy for Denver this year.

Oklahoma City's offense has some cracks in it, sure, but they're basically running it back again with the same dudes playing the same way for the third consecutive year. And while I view Kevin Durant as one of the better offensive players in the league, he's not what I would call a traditional offensive engine, a guy whose specialty it is to just make fine, man offense flow and be super easy. He's a score. He's one of the very best ever, but he's a

score. He's the guy who takes a good offense and makes it elite. And it's just about roles, right? Like, there's a certain diminishing return when you have offensive engine types. I've talked about this, like if you wanted to theoretically pair a Luca with a Chris Paul in his prime or with a, you know, with a, uh, Nicola Yokic, right? Like, there's a diminishing return when you have multiple of those offensive engine types, but like a lot of those kinds of guys aren't going to be the elite shot makers that are the types of dudes that lift good offenses into elite offenses, right? Like, this is a unique trait that Kevin Durant has. He made the Golden State Warriors unbeatable when he was there because they already had an engine and stuff. They were already

and a great offense. And he took them from being that to being all time great, like the possibly the greatest offense of all time, right? That's what Kevin Durant did to that group. So like I do think Kevin Durant obviously makes the Rockets a better offense. The question is, will he be able to improve their offense enough? Like, this is more complicated than just KD graded offense equals Houston graded offense. I mean, guys, like, I see similar issues with the Los Angeles Lakers,

and they have substantially more offensive talent. They're not surrounding, you know, Luca with a bunch of defensive specialists, the way that Houston is going to be surrounding Kevin Durant with. The Lakers have a shit ton of offensive talent. And yet they went through extended stretches, both in the regular season with Luca and in the Timberwolf series last year, or they didn't look like a good offense because it takes time and effort

and that continuity builds naturally for you to become a good offense even with high level offensive pieces. Houston does not have an elite offensive player now. Or excuse me, elite offensive roster. They added an elite offensive player. They added some shooting. Like I think Dorian Finney Smith is going to help.

But it's going to be a process. how all of this works out for Houston, how this season goes for them, will depend on what level they can get to on offense. Does he make them a little bit better? That's not going to be enough. Does he make them a lot better? That's where they could end up reaching their ultimate goals

and competing for a championship. I think a big part of the job is going to be figuring out how to turn the attention that KD draws into easy offense for the rest of the guys. Essentially, what I'm saying is having KD function more as an offensive engine than as a score all the time. I think if KD just plays in the mud one-on-one basketball against aggressive help over and over and over again, I think that could lead to some disappointing results. But think about it from the perspective of opponent game plans.

Katie's going to draw a lot of attention. like if you're coaching against the Houston Rockets this year, what are you going to do from the standpoint of your game plan? You're going to overplay KD and you're going to overplay the paint. You're going to try to get the ball out of his hands and you're going to try to concede decent catch and shoot looks to mediocre jump shooters. That's what every team is going to try to do.

So the key will be taking advantage of KD's unique ability to invert spacing. KD was the best jump. shooter and basketball last year. We talked about that in his ranking episode. He's going to come off of wide pin downs and he's going to draw a second player to the level. He's going to come off of ball screens on the ball and he's going to draw two to the ball. And that sort of thing, that specific ability to bring multiple defenders out to the perimeter, that can be used to turn all of that overhelp into dunks, not threes. If the big man, think of it just from a very basic

basketball geometry. Kevin Durant comes off of a ball screen. The big man shows up at the level. You have two on KD. His man rolls out of it. Who's now accountable for that man? The low man, right? The low man is typically guarding the guy in the weak side corner. He's going to be stepping over to guard that role man. Who's the next helper in that line? If the on ball guys on the ball and the screen defender is showing on the ball and the low man is tagging the roller. The next guy in the rotation is literally going to be the guy up on the wing. It's easy to get behind that guy. There are dunks to be had there. That's what the Golden State Warriors have been doing to teams with high step pick and roll for years and years and years, turning that two on the

ball sequence into dunks. So now just this is where you got to take advantage. This is where you got to take of a men Thompson's versatility because now imagine whether it's shangoon setting the pick and him short rolling and a men Thompson working the baseline or men Thompson screening and rolling and shangoon working the baseline it's going to be pivotal that they establish timing and this is what is going to take time this is what the continuity brings through thousands of reps you can get to the point where you have that timing down pat. And you can try to set up the floor so that a men's working the baseline

or Shangun's working the baseline and the other is in the short roll spot. And it's, you know, someone like Dorian Finney Smith on the wing. That's the kind of option where it's like, okay, now we're using a men not spacing the floor, but as a dunker. We're using Shangun, whoever it is, one of them as a dunker and the other as a decision maker in the middle of the floor. And the only three-point shooter you can tilt it to is going to be a, you know,

a Fred Van Vleet or a Dorian Finney Smith. Better options than in the past when it was Dylan Brooks, right? Like it's one of those things where that geometry, setting up that flow, getting the timing down so that they can go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, wide open corner three for Dorian Finney Smith. You know, like that sort of, that sort of sequencing is going to be what breaks this offense open into being elite. Again, I think that's going to be, that's why I've been advocating so much for like a substantial

increase in Kevin Durant pick and rolls this year. I think, you know, Kevin Durant's not necessarily the highest level pick and roll player in the world, but that allows him to draw his attention further away from the basket. in the event that you work more out of KD in the high post or in the low posts in ISO situations or post-ups, in those situations, KD is going to draw the double teams closer to the basket. The closer the double team is to the basket,

the easier it is to force it to become a three for somebody. The more double teams that KD draws 25 feet from the basket, the more dunks and layups you're going to generate, which obviously are going to suit an athletic Houston Rockets team that doesn't necessarily shoot the ball super well. That's what's going to suit them more. So again, I think figuring out that progression, figuring out that timing, making sure that your off ball offensive players are playing in a spot where they're most comfortable rather than when they're uncomfortable, if you screw it up to where a man, Thompson's catching more in the short corner corner wing,

that's going to lead to lesser returns with this particular office. So yeah, I think the easiest way that I could explain it is Houston from a pure talent perspective is right up in there with that tier Denver and Oklahoma City year on. But there are clearly some bigger question marks for them than there are for other teams. There's a wider range of potential outcomes for them on the offensive end of the floor. And where Houston ends up this year will come down to how those particular question marks pan out. Now to the other two parts of your question, though, how does KD's age factor into all of this? It entirely depends on how they play. Again, if they play ugly, grind out

basketball and KD kind of insists on playing more like he did in Phoenix, lower volume, pick and roll, higher volume, mid post, ISO, base up stuff, that's brute force basketball. And I could see him wearing down a little bit just because they'll need so much of him in that spot in order to be successful in offense. And that's just a lot. But if they can figure out more ways to use the attention he draws to initiate offense, again, more double teams further from the basket or aggressive shows at the level coverages further from the basket, that's where you can find ways to kind of like turn the way he's guarded into points rather than forcing him. him to really physically carry that load. And I think, I think if they can figure that out,

I don't think his age will be a problem. Why? Because this is a really young and athletic Houston team. And they're going to anchor him with so much size and athleticism that, you know, like, even when we were talking about Katie's rim pressure, Katie's rim pressure is going to factor in for me when it comes to, you know, the player rankings list when we're talking about in a vacuum basketball. But this team is going to generate so much rim pressure in transition and a Ben Thompson through his ability to, you know, just get by people and to get aggressively closer to the basket. Alper and Shane Goon's power game. Like, Houston is going to be fine on the rim pressure fund. It's more just like the greasing the wheels, creating advantages and

making basketball easier for them. That's the thing that I think Katie's going to be able to help them with. It's kind of a unique fit in that sense. But yeah, yeah, like I'm, whether or not Katie's age plays a role is going to come down in large part to how they play. Minutes per game. I think would also be a factor. Like Houston's an elite defense. So they're going to be able to sit him for 16 minutes a game and still give themselves a great chance to win. That'll help in the regular season.

But especially when they get to the postseason, how they play will be a factor because they will have to ratchet his minutes up. And lastly, the part about KD ranking 11th when typically you need a top 10 player to win, I just don't think that's necessarily true. I just think you need a superstar to win. And KD is certainly a superstar. he's just in that second tier. We're just in such a deep league now

that if Kauai and Joel and Bede are healthy, we have 14 of those guys now. But I think KD is every bit as good as everyone else that I have on this list, up to number five. That's where that kind of line of demarcation is. So I think KD is plenty good enough. It's just about what heights the team can reach collectively,

which is going to come in large part down to what style do they choose to play on offense and how well it all comes together. on that end of the floor in terms of their continuity and how quickly they figure things out. Don't understand. Next question. Don't understand some of your Donovan Mitchell arguments. He played four less minutes per game than the year before, four and a half minutes less than two years ago. That's the main reason his total usage numbers were down. That's just an 11% decrease in his minutes and his time of possession per game decreased by 22%. So I don't care about the minutes

going down, by all indications, even just watching the calves, Donovan Mitchell had the ball less. He was clearly in a different role. It wasn't simply just that his minutes were cut down. He literally dropped in time of possession by almost a fourth. That is a huge change in approach from Donovan Mitchell year over year. Next question. I'm as big of a LeBron fan as anyone, but I can't agree with him being higher on the list than Donovan Mitchell. You mentioned. You mentioned, LeBron finished sixth and MVP voting while Mitchell finished top five. Donovan Mitchell led his team to the number one seed and statistically the second highest rated offense of all time. Additionally, if this list is based on the player you want from October to June, then health has to matter. Spida played 71 games last season. It was healthy going into the playoffs and average 30. It seems unfair to blame anything on him regarding their playoff run last season, seeing as he was without his wingman and his secondary playmaker Garland for the entire playoffs. And he still had a damn near 50 point game and is a notorious playoff rise. think back to the bubble. Again, I love LeBron, but he hasn't been fully healthy going into either of the last two playoffs. And you wonder if he can maintain the intensity as a primary, secondary option for four series.

It's tough to bank on a fully healthy LeBron season through the playoffs, whereas Spita is smacking his prime. So I'm taking him for health and availability. Thanks and keep up the great work. Best basketball pot in the game. Thank you so much for the kind words. We're going to really dive into this one because I think it's an interesting debate. The rivalries, the marching bands, the upsets. Saturdays just got way more fun. College football is back. Think you know the game?

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Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, name? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it.

We just contributed to a... We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. And...

Oh, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of... the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing,

a bit for the podcast, people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast.

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consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. There are a couple things that I disagree with for you. Like, spite of playing 71 games was a little out of the ordinary. He typically does miss significant chunks of the season. That was one of the seasons where he played more than usual.

And even though he averaged high scoring numbers, didn't think he did an amazing job in terms of flow of the game, like floor management type stuff like we talked about when we were doing the Donovan Mitchell video. And even though he put up big scoring numbers, the team, even though he was surrounded by a lot of shooting and quality role men talent, the Cavs did not put up good offensive ratings when Donovan Mitchell was in control of the offense. So like, I pushed back on a couple of those specific things. But I want to dive into this because I don't see a large gap between the two. Anybody that I have ranked five to 12, I could see a case for any player to be ranked above any player. Like,

there's absolutely a case for Donovan Mitchell to be above LeBron. It'd be a harder case to make, but you could absolutely argue him above a guy like Anthony Edwards. It could be like he has more reliable short range scoring. He's got like better floater short range jump shooting. He's more attentive and disciplined off ball defender. Anthony Edwards makes a lot of mistakes on that end of the floor. You could make the case. Again, it's not a case I would make. I think it is clearly a little bit better than than Donovan Mitchell. But the point is, is like, anywhere from five to 12, you could argue anybody over anybody. Like, if you're going to make a case for LeBron to be down at 12, you're going to focus on some of the inconsistencies in the regular

season with his effort or some of the stuff with his age. And if you're going to argue him up to five, you're going to be like, well, the guy that was playing in the first round against Denver, two years ago looked like a bona fide top tier superstar. And like when you have that dude, you just give yourself a really good chance, right? Like there's, you're going to make cases either way. And again, the case against health or excuse me,

the case against LeBron is health, as you mentioned. LeBron at his top end, the guy we saw in February, he's one of the five best players in the world. But there's no guarantee that he'll be at that level when you get to the playoffs. And you're right. I thought that in 2023,

when he had the foot injury, he wasn't even close. He was more like a third tier superstar because he had this broken foot and he could barely move and it was affecting him in a bunch of areas of his game. I thought he was at that level in 2024. It was sneaky one of his better playoff series. They just got nuked by a couple of Jamal Murray game winners. But they led the majority of the series. He averaged 28.7 rebounds and nine assists on 64% true shooting.

He hit clutch shot after clutch shot after clutch shot. it's just the nuggets did more on offense at the end of those games. It just wasn't enough to win the series. And again, Denver's one of the great teams of this era. And they're defending champs at that point in time, right? And I thought he was fine against Minnesota. He was right at that second tier superstar level. Certainly better than he was in 2023 when they made the Western Conference finals run,

but not as good as he was in 2024. So to your point, it's kind of like a roll of the dice with LeBron as far as which player you're going to get when you get to the postseason. But that's the first point that I have to hone in on here. LeBron's floor is just so high as a basketball player still to this day. Like injured foot LeBron in the Western Conference finals run, 25 points per game on 58% true shooting. Again, not the 30 points per game on 57% true shooting that Donovan Mitchell just put up, but still really good scoring, 25 points per game on 58%

you're shooting. Go look, just go look at the NBA.com website sort five points per game and look at how many players were averaging that type of scoring on that type of efficiency in this year's postseason run.

10 rebounds per game and seven assists per game. 10 rebounds per game is a huge foundational boost to a basketball team. And like say what you want to say about LeBron's regular season defensive effort.

He's still a very good playoff defender to this day while helping to anchor your defensive rebounding, while becoming an excellent catch and shoot player. Last two playoff runs, he's 18 for 37 on catch and shoot jump shots. It's 49%. He can still generate offense, not at the level that Donovan Mitchell does now, but still really good at it because of his playmaking talent and his size and strength. And like, yeah, like, Donovan Mitchell had a more impressive regular season. He led a kick-ass Cleveland Cavaliers team to a phenomenal,

season, but it's important to acknowledge that that was an excellent cast team. Darius Garland's phenomenal ability to just beat people off the dribble and slice teams up in the paint made things easier for everybody. Evan Mowgli becoming like a legit, awesome two-way player. Jared Allen established himself as one of the better regular season centers in the NBA. Their insane depth of three and D off ball talent that Kobe Altman put together. It was an awesome team. That roster actually makes a shit ton of sense. for LeBron James, a point guard who can break the defense down, elite defenders that can shoot, elite defenders in the front line that anchor things that can handle some of the physicality,

tons of high level offball role player talent. That's literally why this summer, when LeBron and all the rumors around the Lakers started popping up, everyone's like, hmm, what if you went to Cleveland? Because it just makes so much basketball sense. And again, like LeBron, even on the low end of what you're going to get in the postseason, his floor is just still so high. And you might just get one of the top six or seven players in the lead when you get there, which is a ceiling that I don't think Donovan Mitchell can reach. So, like, I just still think LeBron's a better basketball player than Donovan Mitchell, even at his old age. And I, for the record, I believe if you swapped them right now, like right now, even with the janky lineup stuff, you'd have to move Strues to the two

and play LeBron at the three next to Mowbly and Allen, it'd be a little bit funky. I think that's a better team. Frankly, I'd make that team a gigantic favorite to win the Eastern Conference. And I'd give them a substantially better chance to win the title. I think LeBron is a bit better than Donovan, but I also think the fit, the surrounding talent, all that shooting, a point guard that can help break the defense down. I even think just in pure basketball fit that matches up better. with LeBron in Cleveland than Donovan Mitchell does in Cleveland.

So, yeah, again, that's just my take. You're not wrong for putting Donovan Mitchell above LeBron. Again, I think there's a clear case you can make. I think it's a defensible position. But I still think LeBron's a better basketball player than Donovan Mitchell. And by the way, I'm going to be hitting him very soon. So it's not like I have him astronomically high. I just have him ahead of the guys that I have below him on the list right now.

Next question. Austin Reeves and Jared Vanderbilt for Jaden McDaniels. I see this as a mutually beneficial trade for both teams. What are your thoughts? It's an interesting trade on the surface, especially when you view it through just a short-term lens, right? Like Austin Reeves provides secondary ball handling to a Minnesota team that desperately needs

that kind of like skill guard off of Anthony Edwards, right? And Jaden McDaniels makes the Lakers substantially more athletic and gives them that starting caliber small forward that they desperately need. But it comes with a fatal flaw for both teams. For the Lakers, part of the reason why they value Austin Reeves is the proven pathway to success with Luca Donchich,

which is another kind of like pound the ball type of shot creator that can run spread, pick, and roll with similar types of players that Luca plays with and just run a reasonable facsimile of what Luca does to spell Luca when he's off ball and to carry the offense when Luca's off the floor. I think the Lakers view Austin. Reeves as their Kyrie Irving or their Jalen Brunson in terms of being that secondary

ball hand. Now, there's a much more complicated conversation we can have about whether or not Austin's capable of that. Jalen Brunson is top 10 on this list this year. And Kyrie Irving is one of the best number twos of all time as a guy who's literally won a championship in that role. And I don't think anybody's under any delusions thinking that Austin Reeves is better than Kyrie Irving. And I don't think any of us are thinking that, right? So there's a complicated conversation you could get into, which is like, are the Lakers making the right decision betting on Austin Reeves being their number two with Luca? But I think that's what they see him as.

I think that's what they see. So I don't think they're going to make a move that trades Austin Reeves unless they're getting that guy back, the guy who's going to be Lucas number two, or unless they have a clear plan, like, oh, this guy is going to come sign with us or whatever it might be, some sort of intel, some sort of plan to replace that guy who's secondary off of Luca right when LeBron retires or before. If they don't have that, I don't think they're going to trade Austin. And then the second piece of it is if you trade Jaden McDaniels, the Timberwolves suddenly have a gaping hole at the small forward position. Like Jared Vanderbilt, you

included him in that deal. If he started next to Julius Randall, I think that would be a spacing disaster, especially with Rudy Colbert on the floor. I don't think Terrence Shannon is ready for a starting role yet. If you start Dante Devenzo, you're going to start having size issues. I just think it would be plugging one hole but creating another

hole in the process. So I just don't think it makes sense there. If the Lakers are going to make a move for like an elite starting two or three, somebody in the J.D. McDaniels, even like Herb Jones. And they're not going to move on like an Andrew Wiggins

something along those lines because he's too old. I think they're going to have to wait till the middle of the season. I don't see anything that makes sense right now because, again, they have to have a plan for a ball handler coming back. Or they need to be able to get that player without including Austin Reeves, which then puts you into a different class of player, right? Or at least a player that's not yet available that can drive the market price down. They're going to have to wait till something takes shape elsewhere around the league.

Like, oh, the Pacers fall out the gates and decide there will. willing to get rid of an Aaron Neesmith, for example. Like, or like Andrew Nemhart would be like a pipe dream because he'd be a guy that could also be that secondary ball handler off of Luca. But like you're, if you could get a player like that, it's going to have to materialize at some point down the line because I just don't think it exists right this, right at this point. And I think it's probably more likely because of the Lakers are so hesitant to give up draft assets at this point, holding out for the superstar that they're going to pair

Luca with. I think it's probably more likely that they end up getting older options, like someone like a Contavius Caldwell Pope out of Memphis, right? Like on a buyout or maybe you, because KCP has a player option after this coming season for over $20 million. So like maybe you ship out expirings, guys like Gabe Vincent and Maxi Klibe and you just tell Memphis, like, we're not giving you anything else, but we'll take KCP and clear your books next summer. and we'll take ACP as a, as a starting too. That would be the kind of deal that I think is more likely for the Lakers than something that's kind of splashier and bigger.

Because I just think that they're trying to play the slow game with Luca, which I think, again, the problem with playing the slow game with Luca is, whatever you anticipate you can get that big carrot that you're thinking about that's going to drive all the success in the Luca Donchage era, you got to also factor in that you're losing an all-MBA player. Like LeBron is probably going to be an all NBA player this season. And that might be the last time. And whenever LeBron leaves, whether he gets hurt this year or like gets hurt next year

or just decides to retire at some point, whenever LeBron's done, you're removing an all NBA player from this roster. And so that's kind of why I view the overcautiousness is a little bit of a flawed strategy. That's not to say that you need to go mortgage your future. As I've said, I don't think the Lakers need to go move Austin, a first round pick and all these swaps and second round draft compensation and everything under the sun to go get a 30 year old Andrew Wiggins. I'm not saying that. I've said on the record, I don't think that the Lakers should move on Andrew Wiggins unless they can do it without including the first round pick because I understand their situation. I would just include Dalton. and maybe a swap and a second round pick and see if you can squeeze Wiggins out of them, you know? Like, because obviously making a move for Wiggins is a win now type of move

that doesn't have as much long-term upside. But I am saying that if an elite, let's say a Jaden McDaniels, for example, comes available, someone of that ilk, Herb Jones, whoever it might be, and you can get that deal done with the first round pick and you keep Austin, I think the Lakers would hold on to the first round pick because of their pipe dreams of Yannis. And I'm saying I think that a first round pick spent on a 26 year old, legitimate, awesome 3&D guy at the small forward position would be mutually beneficial to this era and the future.

On the one hand, all of a sudden you've got LeBron and Luca and this kick-ass 3&D player that you can go try to make a run with right now. and that guy is an asset. He's a 3-and-D player in his 20s. He's worth something. So even if you decided to go make a move for a superstar down the line, he's a guy you can include in a deal like that, that the other team is going to be like, well, we're getting back a 28-year-old, like, all-defense guy.

This is something I can sell to my fans, right? Like, I think that the asset management piece and the lack of valuation from the lake, of super high-level starters as opposed to superstar talent, I think that lack of value placed on super-high-level starters is going to be a mistake in this Luca era. I think Luca is such a unique star.

He's such an offense in and of himself that he's not as dependent on super, super-high-level superstar support. That's why he can get it done with Tyree Irving or get it done with Austin. Or not with Austin, a guy like Jalen Brunson, right? And by the way, that Celtics team was an all-time great. They lost. Luca personally needed to make some improvements,

especially as a defender and getting into better shape. There are checkpoints that Luca has to hit in order for that build to work in order to win a championship. But like, Luca kind of grants you the grace of not necessarily needing a top-tier superstar next to him. Same with Yokic, right? That's how Yokic won the title.

He's such an offense to himself. he's such an elite high-end engine that he can win with really high-level starters rather than needing, you know, to have Janus next to him. Right. That's the unique thing that these ultra indomitable offensive engines bring to the table. And if Luca gets in great shape and he doesn't tire out at the end of games and he gets better on defense, I do think he can win a title surrounded by super high-level starters in a legitimate mid-secondary creator, the ilk of the Kyrie Brunson variety. Right? So like, that, that to me is

the pathway. And so I think that's where I just differ with the Lakers and their kind of big picture like basketball philosophy. It's like, I don't think the Lakers have a big picture basketball philosophy, or at least if they do, it's being drowned out by the superiors. I know there are really smart people that work in the Laker front office underneath Rob Polinka. And like, I just, I am not sure if the Rob Jeannie, you know, Kurt Rambus crowd has the appropriate vision for what works in the modern NBA, even under Luca. And so that that's what kind of freaks me out a little bit. It's like I don't, I think if you ask them like what Herb Jones is worth, they would probably speak more like they would not be willing to spend as much as some of the smarter teams in

the league would be willing to spend to get a guy like that. when the reality is, is alongside Luca Donchich, when he would generate Herb a million butt-naked corner threes and his ability to guard on the perimeter and funnel into a rim protector and all those sorts of things that Herb Jones can do. In the context of Luca, that's worth more than even if you picked up Herb and put him somewhere else. Like he, Luca is such a unique player in the way that he drives value for that type of role player.

And I just hope that the Lakers value that sort of thing eventually. Jason, I don't know if this mailbag, if this is mailbag, but I've watched Curry and LeBron go at it for the last five years. And I've noticed that Curry tends to outplay him in regard to impact.

A lot of people don't want to accept it, but I seriously think he's been better than LeBron for the last couple of years. A lot of general fans point to stats to show that it's close, but in my opinion, Curry's impact has been far greater than LeBron's. And I've noticed that LeBron's stats

make him often better than he, I can't, this must have just been a typo, it says make him out out to be better than he is in the last three to four years. He slacks off a lot on defense and his points seem to be a bit hollow or empty. Don't get me wrong, but he's still been a top top, top five player the last five seasons,

but I could definitely be wrong, but I was wondering on your thoughts about how, about this, especially since most NBA fans don't watch games and just point to stats to show how close it is. So more or less, you're just saying you think LeBron or Steph's been better than LeBron for the last couple of years. You said far better. I don't think it's far better. But I actually agree with you.

I think Steph has been better than LeBron over the last few years. LeBron is super old now. And he's just more prone to injuries that makes it harder for him to reach his peak. His peak is still every bit as high as everyone else in the league. Like, again, last year in February, there wasn't a NBA player playing better than LeBron last year in February. but then he got hurt again, right? And I mean, you guys are starting to see this. You Steph fans like, Steph has been a monster, but he just got hurt.

He's 37 now. Like, this is kind of what happens when you get into these years. And we'll see if that ends up being a fluke. And it was just because he had to carry such a crazy load right in the run up to the playoffs because of their predicament because they waited so long to make a trade. And maybe Steph will be healthy from here on now. We'll see you. But like, I do agree that Steph has been better in the last few years.

than LeBron has been. Like from, I'd say 2022 to 2024, yeah, that stretch, he's been a more reliably great player. That's actually why it's so difficult to have these kinds of discussions with people. Everyone just focused on the wins and losses

when basketball is just so much more complicated than that. For example, the Lakers, led by LeBron, beat the Warriors in 2023, led by Steph. But I thought Steph was a better player than LeBron in that series. LeBron was on a bad foot.

He was struggling to score effectively. LeBron was great in game six, especially. Like, LeBron was awesome at times in that series. And again, in game six, he was a fucking monster. But Steph was the better player in that series. But the Lakers were the better team and the better team won. Similarly, you'll hear Warriors fans constantly talk about how they went three and one against LeBron in the finals.

I thought LeBron was the best player in all four of those. series. The Warriors were just obviously, similarly to the Lakers Warriors series in 2023, the Warriors were just obviously better teams. The 2015 calves were decimated by injuries in that series. Kyrie and Kevin Love Out, there was a massive talent gap. And then the KD Warriors are literally the greatest roster ever assembled in the history of the NBA. People were just being dense for whatever reason, at least among the Warriors. At least among the Warriors fans that look back on that era. I mean, if the Lakers traded for Janus tomorrow and Luca and Janus knocked Yokic out of the playoffs, that doesn't mean that Luca or Janus are better

than Yokic. That's incredibly stupid logic. But for whatever reason, Warriors fans make that very case when arguing Steph over LeBron. When the second and third best players in the league at the peak of their powers, played on the same team, they beat LeBron twice. So my take is, for the entirety of LeBron's prime, LeBron was a better player than Steph. But Steph in his late prime has been better than 38, 39, 40-year-old LeBron. And lastly, the gap in both of these cases is close, in my opinion, which I think is a testament to the greatness of both of them. So, for instance, like, I do think LeBron was better than Steph during that whole era.

but Steph got close. He got close to the guy many folks consider to be the best basketball player ever. That's an incredible feather in Steph's cap. That's a big part of why I have Steph as the fifth best perimeter player of all time. He legit competed, like went toe to toe and competed against the goat. It's remarkable. Similarly, LeBron's staying close to Steph and the stars at the top of it. Like, it's close.

Like, Steph's been better than LeBron the last couple years, but LeBron still made second team all NBA and was sixth an MVP voting last year. And, like, has definitively been right up there hanging on for dear life with those guys. That he, like, it's, he continues to make all NBA every year. He just got second team. It's a truly remarkable accomplishment for a 40-year-old basketball player. Him remaining at that level for as long as he has is literally the biggest part of why I view him as the goat.

If I'm starting to franchise from scratch, and I'm guaranteed a 10-year stretch where he's the best player in the world and another decade plus where he's an all-MBA player, I'm giving myself a lot of chances to build a championship team. No one's come close to that. And last little bonus step topic here.

Again, he just suffered that injury in the postseason, which kind of takes away from this. he's putting together a sneaky little case for longevity on his own. Like among small guards at his age to make second team all NBA, like most small guards fall apart rapidly in this phase of their career. And Steph just hasn't. I'm curious to see how long he'll drag out this level of play. Because like, I still have him pretty high on the list this year.

I have him above LeBron again. But at the same time, he just got hurt and he just missed a playoff series. so hopefully that isn't a sign of things to come. I'm hoping, like I said, that that was more to do with the Warriors waiting forever to finally get Steph a second star and he wore his body down to the point where he had to play super hard at the end of the season

instead of chilling and getting ready for the playoffs. So like whether or not it was a fluke, we'll play a big role in where I rank Steph next summer, right? If he gets hurt again this year, then like if he gets hurt again this year or if he's dealing with a nagging injury that causes him to play below his peak when we get to the postseason, all of a sudden, in those same cases you're making about LeBron and his health and his ability to stay at his peak,

now apply to Steph as well. So that's going to be something I have an eye on this year. I am banking on Steph being healthy, and that's why I have Steph as high as he is. You guys will see where he ranks on the list this year when we get there. But like, I'm going to be keeping an eye on that because I think that's going to play a big role in where he ranks next year. Last question, non-basketball question. So as a fan for years now, I'm happy for you and the misses as you guys embark on a new chapter in life. And congratulations. so much. However, and I don't even want to ask this, but I need to know, does this mean

two sons' podcast is dead? I love that channel. So some of you guys listen to my other podcast that I do. It's just kind of like a passion project on the side. I don't do it nearly as much. We only do like maybe 30 episodes a year. But I cover Star Wars in particular, but like all the big lore stuff like Lord of the Rings, Game Thrones, that sort of stuff. Major TV shows and movies and stuff with my best friend, Luke. And we haven't done an episode in a while in large part because I was in my busy season. And right after that, I immediately moved across state lines. So it was just like super like just a tough transition period. And Luke just had a new baby. So like he's been dealing with that too. So we've been kind of like not working for a while here. But to be

clear, and we did. We covered Andor. But covering Andor was the last time that we did episodes. And So a couple things. First of all, Luke's my best friend and me moving to Denver doesn't change that. And we're going to continue to record. We got them set up with remote equipment. And I'll just be doing Tucson's podcast from here. And we'll do it over Zoom calls. I think it'll be even funer, even more fun for both of us because it'll be opportunities for us to hang out again.

Because we'll obviously be hanging out less being, you know, 900 miles apart. But yeah, we're going to, the main thing is I'm actually. trying to work out something with him on Tuesday or Wednesday this week because I watched the first two episodes of Alien Earth on Hulu and I loved it. And episode three is tomorrow night. And so I'm trying to get Luke, I think he's on board, but I think we're going to do an episode here in the next few days that covers Alien Earth. So if you guys want to watch along with us and just kind of hang out on the podcast, we'll be keeping an eye on my Twitter feed over the course of the next few days and I'll tweet out the link. But if you want to find the channel, it's just two sons podcast.

It's a whole YouTube channel. You go back there, like every Star Wars book we've read. We've done an episode on, Star Wars movies, that sort of thing. Like, we've done a ton of content over the years that I think, especially when you're doing TVs and TV and movie shows, it just still holds up. So you guys can check out the older content there. And then again, hopefully within the next three days or so,

we'll have our new episode there. But Nicholas, thanks so much for supporting us. And all of you guys that do listen to that show, thanks. And if you guys want to check it out, you guys know where to find it. But that's all I have for today. As always, I sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting me and supporting the show. We'll be back on Monday with number nine, number nine.

And I will see you guys. Nope, number eight. Because number nine is Jayne La Brunson. We just said. So I'll see you guys on Monday for number eight. Hey, guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe.

I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it.

We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people. questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but, you know, tired and sick. Tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments.

If we didn't talk ever again, I was fine. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in to you, he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball.

So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Every family has its secrets. But what happens when you discover that your dad has been living a double life? That is not the look of an innocent man. Is everyone lying to me about who they? I felt such desperation. I felt it was what I had to do. Listen to Deep Cover the Family Man on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.