The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - Why Giannis Antetokounmpo is the #4 player in the NBA behind SGA, Luka, Jokic | Milwaukee Bucks

Episode Date: September 9, 2025

Jason explains why he has Giannis Antetokounmpo as the number four player in the NBA, at the bottom of the top tier of superstars, and how he compares to the other elites in the game. Then he discusses why the Milwaukee Bucks trading Giannis to the Atlanta Hawks to pair with Trae Young could be a great move for both sides. All lines provided by Hard Rock Bet.  #VolumeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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We are continuing our player rankings today with number four, Janus Antenacumpa. Then at the tail end of the show, I was driving home from the gym this morning. I'm back to playing regular basketball, which feels fucking amazing. I'm not even going to try to sugarcoat it. I was listening to Zach Lowe

on a beautiful day in Colorado. looking at the Rockies, just a wonderful morning. And then Zach pitched an idea that I can't get out of my head now. And that's what if Janus ended up getting traded to the Atlanta Hawks? And obviously, Janus is a buck for now and probably a buck for this entire season. But it's more just a basketball concept that I want to dive into regarding the fit between Trey Young and Janus. And some of the groundwork that the Hawks have laid in recent years that I think actually

makes them a prime candidate to benefit from a trade like that. So we'll talk about that at the tail end of the show. You guys know the Joe before we get started, subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channels. You don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on Twitter and underscore Jason LT. So you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast feed, wherever you get your podcast under Hoops tonight. It's also super helpful if you leave a rating and a review on that front. Jackson's doing amazing work on our social media feeds on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. Make sure you guys follow us over there. And last but not least, keep dropping mailbag questions in the YouTube comments.

and we'll get to them on our Fridays throughout the remainder of the summer. All right, let's talk some basketball. We have officially made it to our top tier superstar tier. And once again, just like has been the case through each of the previous two tiers, you could literally list these in any order. Even more so than the last tier, I'd say two through four are you could literally jumble them in any case. Like, I'd argue the case to have Anthony Edwards over a guy like Donovan Mitchell.

So from top to bottom of that tier is much stronger than the case to have like a Luca or an SGA over Janus. I think those three guys are very much on the same level. So if you have Janus at two or Luca at two or Shea at two, if you have any of those guys at four, I would understand. But I have Janus at four. So let's start with his last season in review. He played 67 games, 30 points, 12 rebounds, and seven assists per game with. 2.1 stocks, 60% from the field, 22% from three, 62% from the line. That's a 61% effective

field goal percentage weighted for threes and a 63% true shooting percentage when you add free throws into the mix. Another award-heavy season for Janus, seventh consecutive top five MVP finish, seventh consecutive first team all-MBA selection, ninth consecutive all-star selection, and his seventh consecutive year finishing in the top 10 and defensive player of the year voting. Now, before we get into like where Janus is at as a basketball player right now, I want to start with why I have Janus ranked fourth. And again, we're splitting hairs here. I do not perceive much of a gap between him and Luca and SGA. But my case for putting Janice at fourth, centers around the idea that Shea and Luca are both better offensive players than Janus. And as you

guys know, even though I do factor in the defensive end of the floor, to me, it's not like a 50-50 weight. I think it is much easier to build an elite defense around an elite offensive player than it is to build an elite offense around an elite defensive player. I should say it's easier to fabricate a defense that works around an elite offensive player than it is to take an elite defense and get them a bunch of great shots. And so with that being the case, obviously Janus is a great offensive player too. We're going to discuss that in detail. But for me, the case for Janus, when he was considered the best player in the world in 2021, it centered around like an overwhelming physical dominance, right? He was a defensive player of the year candidate. He finished second one

year and first the following year. He obviously is a dominant rebounder, just his overall, you know, like energizer bunny athleticism, right? But Janus, while he's made some slight improvements on offense, which we're going to discuss, he's actually regressed quite a bit as a physical force in the league relative to where he was at his absolute peak. And here's a couple of statistical examples. First is durability. Last year, for the fifth time in the last six years, Janus failed to play 70 games. And that's after he successfully played 70 games in each of his first six seasons. He's also missed playoff games due to injury. Eight of Milwaukee's last six playoff games.

Janice was a DNP over the last three seasons. To his credit, when he's been available, he's consistently produced at that top tier superstar level. But, and that's including

this year's playoff run where he was incredible, but the dependability in the overall, just like two-way dominance is just not quite what it once was. It's also showing up

in some basic statistical areas. He's cutting corners on defense more than he used to. He used to be a two and a half to three stocks per game kind of guy. Now he's like a two stocks per game kind of guy. Not too shocking. He's in his 30s now. He's got to conserve his energy from time to time. I still very much few, Yannis is a game breaking defensive talent when he needs to be in big spots. But you weren't getting like the 82 game monster on the defensive end that you got five years ago. And that is a factor here. So when I look at the fact that Shea and Luca are better offensive players, the case for

Janus would have to center around that overwhelming 82 game defensive dominance. And I just don't see that as as prominent as it used to be. But again, we're splitting hairs. To be clear, I'm not arguing here that Janus has substantially declined or that he doesn't belong in this tier. He very clearly does. I think he has a legit case for the number two spot. There are just some factors that I've considered when deciding to put Luca and Shea over him for this coming season. His case used to be overwhelming two-way physical dominance. He's just experienced some slight declines in that department that are giving those other guys the edge for now. Now let's talk about where Janus is as a basketball player, starting with the offensive end of the floor.

Yonis had an extremely productive shot creation season last year, fueled by improvements as a playmaker and as a shot maker. For starters, he shot 39% on jump shots last year. That was 9% better than the previous year and far and away the best percentage of his career. His previous high was actually just below 34%. So more than a 5% improvement on his previous career high and overall jump shot percentage.

That was fueled by cutting down on his three-point volume and a substantial improvement in the mid-range. Yonis has never been able to establish that little left shot. shoulder hook that I've been begging him to establish over the course of his career, but he has added the ability to knock down that little mid-range jump shot, primarily out of that left-handed high-hesitation dribble that he can rise up and knock down. He made 115 of them last year on 43.4%. Again, nothing that's going to be the super reliable mid-range, short-range shot making that you see from the best scores in the league,

but certainly another element to his game that he's built out. The playmaking piece has been fueled by Janice's improved ball handling and some chemistry with Brooke Lopez and Bobby Portis as cutters and embracing one of the big strengths of that Buck's roster. That Buck's roster had a lot of flaws, but they were excellent jump shooting. The Bucks were actually the very best catch and shoot team in the entire NBA last year, getting 1.2 points per attempt on all of their catch and shoot look. So through continuity and just that overall chemistry that he's built with his bigs, and obviously Brooke is a very different player overall than Miles, but they have some similarities as pick and pop bigs and it'll take some time from then to work out their timing. But I think

that that'll be a similar type of offensive fit that he should be able to capitalize on. And then obviously Bobby re-uped. But through continuity and just chemistry with those two guys in embracing the strength of that roster and jump shooting and honestly just him getting really good at making the reads after lots and lots of repetition, he's made substantial improvements. as a playmaker over the course of the last couple of years. And all of this had mounted to some really impressive shot creation stats. He was low volume in pick and roll. Like he only ran 375 in the regular season last year. But he got 1.13 points per possession. That's awesome. That's like a really good number. Great variety here too. Pick and pops with Portis and Lopez. He even had great

chemistry with Lopez as a roller. I was watching a bunch of Janus pick and roll tape this morning. and he just had so many examples where he would like put the defender in jail and like trapped him on his backside and slowly work his way down the lane waiting for Brooke to rumble and for his screen defender to kind of just step up a touch too far and kind of hit Brooke in that gap before the low man stepped over and he just had a lot of really good reps with Brooke Lopez as a roller as well go screens with shooters just a shit ton of these whether it was Tori and prince or it was Gary Trent, the just sheer number of reps that he got with shooters just running up, AJ Green, just running up and slipping out to the three point line. He got downhill a ton out of

those, a lot of like just simple kickbacks that was like an advantage creation thing that kind of started the engine of Milwaukee's offense. It was a super productive play type, Janus and pick and roll. Like I mentioned earlier, I think it should continue to function well with Miles Turner. I actually want to see his volume double, at least there, this season. I think Yannis should run at least 750 pick and rolls this year. I think that's going to be one of the markers that I'm tracking with him. I just think it's really easy offense. It's like lean into point Yonis, your light on ball handling, lean into point Yonis,

let him function more as an advantage creator. Those go screens just slip, pitch it back, let that dude drive to close out. It's an easy way for Yonis to start an advantage without really having to use too much energy. It was also where he shot the best from three, just having the ball in his hand for a long time, allowed him to build rhythm and feel comfortable with the ball in his hands. He was eight for 16 on pull-up threes at a pick and roll last year. It was one of the few places where he shot the ball really well from the three-point line. Super high volume on ISO, and he was okay there, one point per possession.

It's above average, nothing exceptional, but one point per possession, including passes on 452 reps. I ranked 10th out of the 23 players to log at least 250 ISOs last year. super high volume on post-ups, and he was really good there. 1.1-2 points per possession on 450 reps. That ranked fifth out of the 12 players to log at least 250 post-ups last year. The overall offensive development for Janus as a ball handler and as a shooter and as a playmaker have allowed him to, I actually think, improve overall offensively,

despite him not quite being the wrecking ball of an athlete that he was in his younger years. the yoness of his back-to-back MVP seasons was about sheer athletic force of will. This guy, the 2025-20206 version, he's not quite the whirling dervish that he used to be, but he's added enough polish and change of pace and overall just understanding of the game that I actually think he's a better offensive player than he used to be by a small margin. And the crazy thing is he's still getting to the rim as much and as efficiently as ever, without needing to expend as much energy as he used to. And a big part of that is he's just way smarter

about how he goes about it. I was talking about passing yourself open, right? Like pass first players, they need to score the ball enough to keep the defense honest. That's an issue you're going to run into with the Nicola Yoakich's of the world. Like LeBron James would have games like that

in his prime sometimes where he would just be like, yo, dude, I understand you're making the right read, but the defense isn't reacting to you enough because you're not punishing them enough. as a score, right? Like, that's what past first players need to deal with. These downhill, you know, I don't care if it's a downhill guy or an over the top guy. These score first players, they need to pass the ball enough to keep the defense honest and to keep the floor spaced out. You add in a little change of pace, add in some improved ball handling moves, like little things like Janus has just gotten

way better at like getting his defender to commit to jumping over the top of the screen and then crossing back over and like getting guys caught in the in the blender there and all of a sudden finding himself a runway like different angles on his drives and the timing on his drives like he's just added all those little details that's actually allowed him to get to the rim again like he's still over 70% on like crazy volume and that's a credit to him and just his overall development as an offensive player now there are two things that prevent yonis from reaching the level as an offensive player that the players above him are. One is the gap in playmaking talent,

specifically with guys like Yokic and Luca, like even with Yonis's improvements, he's just not close to being next to either of those guys as overall playmakers. And then the second part of it, and this brings SGA into the equation where he's above him as well, but also with Luca and Yokic,

is reliable short-range shot making. When Yonis is going against good to elite defenses in the half court, especially in like big playoff spots where they start to scout really be prepared for everything. And they can successfully block the rim off from him. And they have the athletes to really close out to their shooters and spook them and kind of forced Janus to hit shots over the top. He still doesn't have a reliable hook shot. And 43% on pull-up middies is good, but it's not going to cut it.

That's 0.86 points per possession, right? this is the recurring issue that Janus has had over the years and slow-court, slow-down half-court environments, especially at the end of big playoff games. And it's the reason why the other stars at the top of the league have managed to slightly pass him at this point in his career. And then on the defensive end, the criticisms I have solely exist in the regular season context.

His effort and focus on that end isn't quite the same as it once was when he won the defensive player of the year ward. And that can prevent him from having as much impact as he's capable of at times over the 82. But in, in like playoff dead serious, we're in a big game and we need a bunch of stops like right now type of sequences, I still view Janus firmly in the top tier of defenders in this league.

And that's his leg up on Luca or Shea or the folks, like the folks out there that want to make the case that Janus is too. That's the case. Yonis can reach a level defensively that can like really change games. and that makes up for some of his situational offensive limitations. Again, the large sample, Janus is as efficient as shot creators you'll find in the league, but in just these situational type of spots, it can become an issue. But Janus's ability to break the game defensively keeps him neck and neck with the guys

who are better than him in those very specific situational type of spots. Bottom line with Janus, Janus may not have made the skill improvements necessary to like really put the league in a stranglehold. But he's improved enough to age gracefully as one of the top tier superstars in this league. And it gives me confidence that even as he gets into his mid-30s, he's still going to be one of those guys that's at the very least in that top six or seven players in the league because he just has made the necessary improvements in a couple of key areas to counteract his declining athleticism as he ages.

The only reasons he's slipped to the bottom of this tier for me center around overall reliability with all the mileage on his body as he enters into his 30s and his inconsistent defensive effort relative to his apex five years ago. But to be very clear, Janus is still very much on that very short list of guys in this league that are indomitable forces of nature.

And he has a very good case to be as high as number two on the list. Him being at number four is as much a testament to the depth of superstar talent that we have in this league as anything else. Now again, for our second segment today, I wanted to discuss a theoretical Yonestrade. We are extremely excited to announce our new presenting sponsor, Hard Rock Bet. Everyone knows and loves the Hard Rock Hotels and Casinos, and now you can use the top-rated hard rock bet sports book to place all of your bets, all NFL season, and beyond. Hard Rock Bet is the only legal sports book in the state of Florida, and is also available in Arizona, Ohio, New Jersey, Indiana, Tennessee, Virginia, Illinois,

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Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. So again, Zach Lo, I was listening to him this morning, and he was just kind of talking, going through a bunch of off-season news, and he brought up the Janus piece,

and he was talking about how, like, for now, he's, like, looking around, but there's nothing super tangible. We know all these teams are going to probe when the time comes, but he brought up Atlanta, and he brought up the fair point to bring up there, which is, well, if it didn't work with Dame super well, why would it work super well with Trey? And he was just bringing that up as a talking point.

He didn't really dive into it. I don't think he is revealing his take there. I would imagine if Zach expounded upon that. He would probably agree with me that Trey is a better. fit. But that's what I kept thinking when Zach brought that up. I thought, like, I think Trey's a very different basketball player than Dave. And I actually think flat out, that is a substantially better basketball fit with a substantially higher ceiling. Now, to be clear, again, as we mentioned off the top, we know that Janus is most likely going to start

the season with the Bucks. I know that they're trying to make that work. I've had this conversation with Bucks fans on the show before, like, it's just about acknowledging reality. You probably can't win. And if you probably can't win and you're not close to figuring out a way for him to win and he's entering into this like early mid 30s phase of his career where you're going to expect to see just a tiny bit of a decline, it's kind of in the best interest for everybody for him to get traded. It's in the best interest for Janus because he's too damn good to be beyond too limited of a roster. Like the East is super weak and wide open,

and it feels like the Bucks can't win it. And like at least they're firmly in that second tier of contenders in the Eastern Conference where it feels like a bunch of stuff would have to go right. And that just feels like a shame for a player who is like we've talked about firmly in the race for the two spot in the NBA among players and still firmly in his prime.

I am there in his early 30s. And for the Bucks, right now they have no future. And a Janus trade could be the vehicle with which to propel your franchise into the next era of Bucks basketball. So again, like, I get it. I understand Bucks fans, you're probably like, I don't even want to fucking talk about this right now. And I understand that.

But like, I just keep coming back to, I think this is probably what's for the best for both parties. So as we start to look around the league, I have literally not been able to stop thinking about Atlanta as a Yannis fit. I think it's by far my favorite Yonis trade destination. I like it because Atlanta is kind of a young, fun team that I have been super high on over the course of this summer. I think Yonis would immediately propel them into top tier championship contention. I think that the fit on the roster is fantastic, which we're going to dive deeper into. And I think Atlanta can put together a pretty nice package for it. I think the package is something along the lines of Jalen Johnson and Yaka Kangwu. The Hawks have a bunch of available first round draft compensation so they can

load it up with picks. All of a sudden, if you're Milwaukee, you get this super exciting young player and Jalen Johnson who's athletic and we'll put it together highlight reels and will be a really fun guy for the fan base to root for, you have legitimate first round draft compensation coming back to restock your troves in that department. I think it just makes a lot of sense. Now let's dig into the basketball. And I want to start with the tray fit.

In theory, the Dame Janus fit should have been better than it was. And even though they experienced highs and the bucks had stretches where their offense looked amazing, it just kind of felt like Dame and Yanis never quite got to the level as a pick and roll duo that they could have gotten to. I think part of this is Dame in his age.

Like if it's 31 year old Dame, it's probably a very different story. I think part of it is just the playstiles. Dame has never been great at like change of pace in ball screens. And I think he struggled with that with Janus as a role partner in terms of actually setting Janus up with quality role man opportunities. Dame had this tendency to like just drive into the teeth of the defense instead of kind of more methodically work and pick and roll until the defense reacted to him so that he could set Janus up with opportunities. I thought it was even jarring how like Kevin Porter

Jr. seemed to have like some immediate natural ability to get the ball to Janus in the pocket just because he played with more pace in the screens. And like it just, it just never quite materialized the way it was supposed to. I even thought there was like way too much Dame Brooke Lopez pick and pop and pick and roll because of the fact that those two just seemed like more of a natural fit as a partnership. I think Trey would figure out how to be awesome with Janus right away. I think within weeks, the two of them would be cutting teams up. Trey is one of those guys that has a couple of very glaring flaws that cause him to slip down in player rankings conversations. And like, I've had him outside of the top 25 often.

He only broke in this year because of substantial injuries above him on the list that, and I think I can't remember exactly where I had him, but I had him like 24, 25 in that range. And like, like, I, I obviously view Trey as a player that comes with his downsides. And those downsides are obvious. clear defensive limitations and competitiveness limitations on the defensive end of the floor. And then on the offensive end, he's extremely susceptible to switching. But outside of that, Tray's awesome. I view him as a legitimate offensive engine, an entirely different tier of overall offensive weapon

than Dame was at the point of his career when he went to Milwaukee. I view him as one of the top tier playmakers and passers in this league. I view him as a guy that would immediately figure out how to turn that partnership into tons of awesome shots for both Janus and for the other role players within Atlanta. I think that Janus, we talked about Porzingis as like a fit to kind of help Tray with his susceptibility to switching. I think Janus is a supercharged version of that. Yannis has one-on-one numbers earlier.

He's one of the better post-up players in the league at volume. Like, I just think that fit makes a ton of sense. To put it very simply, I think Trey and Yonis would be a substantially better duo than Damon Yonis were. And then from there, they have a really well-built roster for a Yonis group. The Chris Ops Porzingis fit, we've seen that Yonis had chemistry with pick-and-pop Biggs. We like the idea of having pick and roll flexibility with Janice and Christops on the floor together, the ability to generate space with Christops as an above the break three-point shooter,

a better version of what Brooke Lopez was in his time there. They've got that depth of perimeter talents. You can give up a Jalen Johnson in that deal. And thankfully, Jalen makes $30 million now so he can take up a big chunk of the salary that you need to send out. But you can keep Zachary Rissachay and you can keep Dyson. Daniels and you can keep McKeel Alexander Walker and you can have like a depth of two-way role player talent surrounding the Trey and Yannis duo. It even fixes one of the specific deficits on that Atlanta Hawks roster. As much as I like that Atlanta Hawks roster right now, they've got

a deficit of ball handling. It gets pretty dark once you get past Trey. Yonis is going to deal with a similar issue in Milwaukee this year. It's a big part of why I've talked about him increasing his pick and roll volume, Janice would come in and immediately fix their ball handling deficit because of his ability to run action with all the improvements he's made it as a ball handler and as an advantage creator in the league. I just think it's the most fun.

Janus going to some awesome team like Houston or Oklahoma City or, you know, him, you know, getting traded to New York to play for the Knicks, like any of those sorts of situations, they kind of feel too obvious and too like, they don't, they lack some of that intrigue. And Atlanta, I just think would be a super fun team for Janus to go to. It immediately reinvigorates Trey as one of the more influential players in the league. It takes a fun young team and propels them from a lower tier to an upper tier. It makes the Eastern Conference, it maintains the strength of the Eastern Conference,

conference. We don't want Janice to go to the West. He's the only top tier star in the conference right now. And so, like, if Janus were to get traded, right now, I'm looking at Atlanta as easily my favorite spot for him to go. I just think it makes a ton of basketball sense. I've been thinking about it all day. All right, guys, that's all I have for today is always I sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. We'll be back on Wednesday with number three. And then we're tweaking our format a bit this week. Instead of a mailbag on Friday, we're going to do number two and number one. So we're going to finish the list this week. I will see you guys

on Wednesday. Hey guys, it's us the Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick and guess what? We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because

we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but you know, tired and sick. Tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy,

not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year

on our podcast, Point Game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was hiring. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come up to him.

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