The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight X Nerd Sesh - Nuggets-Timberwolves Reaction: Ant Edwards & Wolves BLOW OUT Denver

Episode Date: May 17, 2024

Jason Timpf is joined by the 'Nerd Sesh' guys to react to Anthony Edwards, Karl-Anthony Towns, and the Minnesota Timberwolves' DOMINANT 115-70 Game 6 win over Nikola Jokic, Jamal Murray, and the Denver Nuggets. The guys break down the game's biggest plays and share their predictions ahead of Game 7 in Denver. Later, the guys share their predictions for Knicks-Pacers Game 6 and Thunder-Mavericks Game 6. The show ends with the guys ranking the Top 5 players remaining in the NBA Playoffs including Nikola Jokic, Anthony Edwards, Jalen Brunson, Luka Doncic, SGA, and a heated Jayson Tatum debate. #volume #Herd Timeline (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements): 04:00 - Nuggets-Timberwolves Reaction 21:22 - Who wins Game 7? 35:43 - Who wins Knicks-Pacers Game 6? 46:35 - Who wins Thunder-Mavericks Game 6? 59:46 - Ranking Top 5 Players Left in NBA Playoffs 82:00 - Check out Nerd Sesh!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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issuance. See dkng.com slash B-Ball for eligibility and deposit restrictions, terms, and responsible gaming resources. Welcome to Hoops Tonight here at the Volume. Happy Thursday, everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great week. got a jam-pack show for you guys tonight. We decided to pivot around the end of the first half there as it turned into a complete and utter destruction as the Minnesota Timberwolves

tied the series at three, sending us to a Game 7 in Denver on Sunday. They were up by as much as 50, the most destructive blowout of this postseason to this point. So with that, we're going to bring in the guys from NerdSesh, Logan and Carson, and we're going to take a deeper dive into this particular series, talk about what we saw tonight, talk about what we expect in Game then we're going to use tonight as an opportunity to bounce around to the other two remaining semi-final series that we have Mavericks thunder and nix pacers you guys know the joke before we get started subscribe to our brandy youtube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos follow me on twitter at underscore jason l t so you guys don't miss show announcements don't forget about our podcast feed

wherever you get your podcast under hoops tonight and they keep dropping mailback questions in those youtube comments so we can keep hitting them throughout the rest of the post season all right let's talk some basketball so what's up guys thanks for taking the time to come uh on uh short notice and hang out, talk some hoops. This game, you know, it's really hard to learn much about a game where a team goes up by 50 points after they got out class three times in a row right before that, right? I said the same thing after the Knicks won game,

game five at home after the Pacers tied in game four. Like when you're playing Indiana and the Knicks get killed and then you go back to New York and the Pacers get killed, it's very clear that effort and energy and focus is the primary determining factor. I thought that was clear in this game from the opening tip. I'm going to pitch it to you guys, to you first, Carson. We're going to go around. I want you guys to give your thoughts on what happened tonight. I'm going to give you one stat before we start. Minnesota's defense tonight. Another incredible performance, according to cleaning the glass, held the nuggets to 65.2 points per 100 half court plays. They outscored them by 41.1 points per 100 half court possessions. It was a complete

and total destruction. What did you notice tonight, Carson? Well, I think you hit on the key point, which is that this was clearly going to be a bad Denver game, not from the jump, right? Because early they were actually getting out in transition and they got out to that 9-2 lead, but pretty clearly thereafter once you see the 20-0 run. And I think that we, We have to give a lot of credit to Minnesota for that because this is a fantastic defense. I believe one of the best defenses that we've seen this century. And the last few games didn't change that. That was just an all-time offense winning out against still a great defense.

And in this game, there was a reversal. To me, it immediately felt more like game two. This was a very physical game from Minnesota defensively. The ball pressure actually had a substantial impact at a few points, which we've seen Denver has found ways to nakes. gate over these last few games, but like there's the bad Jamal Murray turnover early. And they were much more physical. And I thought they did a really good job on Yokic as well, super active with their hands.

They're getting those backtaps. They're poking balls out just like they were in game two at a ridiculous level. And they did a really good job of forcing anybody other than Yokch to beat them. I thought last game's game plan was just shockingly bad from Minnesota in terms of how willing they were to allow Yokish to work in single coverage. Now, there came a point where he started specifically hunting that stuff. He was like, okay, I'm not going to let Rudy roam. I'm going to force a switch here, and then you're not going to send help when I have Gobert

on me. But like, he was just allowed to really toast them in that game. And they have seen by far their most success against him and this Nuggets offense in the series when they send doubles. In game two, that was the single biggest thing with Rudy off the floor. They didn't really have a choice. But they doubled the hell out of him. And they just have such an athletic advantage.

Their rotations were so excellent in that game. They were running dudes off the line. They were forcing contested threes. And they just sped up that offense and they threw it into the chaos. And that's what happened in this game again. It felt like the Nuggets completely lost their sense of self. And they were just operating at this very hectic pace that was clearly to their disadvantage. Like you have early shot clock Aaron Gordon threes.

And I know that you shot the ball quite well from Beyond the Arc in this series. But you don't like those looks. Early shot clock, Yokic threes. with how he's been shooting over this postseason. You don't love and you would just like for them to work to get a better shot. Off of these Yokic doubles, oftentimes they're just taking like the first catch and shoot three that they get instead of trying to consistently swing that ball

and put the defense further into rotation. And I just thought that things got worse and worse for them. And the issues compounded. And then you have like Aaron Gordon forcing an ISO on Gobert, missing a turnaround. He dribbles off his foot trying to attack. Kat, the non-yokic Minutes, were awful in the first half offensively.

And ultimately, as well as Minnesota defended, and as much as Denver was thrown off their rhythm, they also just couldn't make a shot. Like even when they got a good open look from deep, it didn't matter. They were four of 21 from three in the first half, I believe. And Rudy also did an incredible job protecting the rim in this game. And I thought forced a number of tough misses in the paint

where Jamal is just way off on a floater. Christian Brown doesn't even want to put up a shot. Like his presence was monstrous. in this game. And he really kept them from scoring in the paint. And when they're struggling to score from deep as they were in this game, that is obviously a massive factor. And Jamal was brutal. One of 10 in the first half, really disappointing effort. I thought that Ant did a great job on him. I thought, again, this was a very physical performance and that threw him off his rhythm. He was also just missing open shots. So the offense broke down, but I was really

disappointed by just the effort as well. They allow 11 offensive rebounds just in the first half. you have that sequence to end the half when, yeah, they've been down big for the entire period, but they're finally building some semblance of momentum and Aaron Gordon throws the ball up into the air and then they just concede an easy offensive rebound to Jaden McDaniels. And from that point forward, it was like awful rotations. You get a yokeach lazy turnover. He wasn't protecting the ball like he has been. Just a really bad letdown performance from them.

Facing a team on the road that you know is, first of all, going to pride themselves on the defensive side of the ball. and they're going to start their effort there. They are going to bring the physicality, if it is allowed, more so than anybody else in the league. They are more athletic than you. And so if they are giving a bunch of effort and you aren't, you can just get smacked in the mouth. And that very much happened in this game. Yeah, they did get smacked in the mouth. I do want to give a ton of credit to Minnesota, man.

It was a defensive master class in this one. And, you know, I think you hit on it, Carson. It's not really the consistency of this defense and how they can affect Denver, but it's the capability. the fact that they can have games like this. Like everybody wanted to make big declarations about this series every step of the way, myself included, wanted to write Denver off after the first two games, wanted to write Minnesota off after the last three games. But the bottom line is that nobody has been able to disrupt Denver in the way that Minnesota has.

And I think it is a testament to their defense that a game like this is possible, let alone that we get three in a single series. Like I think the big key is doubling Nicole the Yokic, getting the ball out of his hands consistently and forcing other guys to kill you. They did a phenomenal job in recovering off doubles. Carson, you mentioned how they dominated the glass to 11 first half offensive rebounds. Guys, that's the most in the first half in the playoffs since 2004. They also grabbed 61 boards overall.

That's the most in a game since the 2022 Warriors. Wow. They just forced the nuggets to settle for so many jump shots. The nuggets in the regular season were 30th and three-pointers attempt under just under 32-3s a game. They attempted 21 in the first half. That's on the Boston Celtics pace for a single game. You guys know how I feel about the Boston Celtics. Like that's not a great stat.

You just got to get downhill. They finished this one seven to 36 overall. And they beat them in the paint 46 to 36. Like that's a huge key, man. They can't get anything else going. They can't hit the broad sign of a barn on a jump shot. And their offense was just out of sorts. I thought the game plan was great.

I thought the energy and the effort was great. And I want to give a big shout out too. You mentioned Rudy Gober. Carson. I want to give a big shout out to Cat and how he stood physically in the post, too, and Jaden McDaniels. Like the will of him, dude, not even what he did offensively. He had a great offensive game tonight, too, but just that takes a toll, man, that consistent effort and energy. And he didn't look tired at all throughout this game, man, kept applying ball pressure, kept getting after it. It was just a genius game plan, tremendous effort, tremendous energy,

and something that you rarely see against this Denver team, man. It is really amazing that Minnesota is able to pull off three games like this in a single series against maybe the best offense I've ever seen. Yeah, the talk after this game is going to be tactically focused around the double teaming, right? Like, that's going to be the big thing. It's like, oh, we double team Yokic. It threw off Denver's offense. This is, this is where things kind of took off. And I think we're going to learn a lot more about that adjustment in game seven. I do think that that's the best available route for them, mainly just because Michael Porter Jr. is not shooting particularly well in this series. And so as a result of that, and Jamal Murray's not

shooting particularly well either. So like, you got to go down by making these dudes that are out of rhythm make shots. So like I, I 100% agree that that's the strategy. But I didn't think that that was the determining factor in tonight's game at all. It was just a complete physical, athletic bludgeoning. That's literally all it was to me. And, you know, one of the things we noticed and we saw this at the opening stretch in the first quarter of game one. pretty much throughout game two, and then throughout the game tonight, like one of the big things that Minnesota's defense has done to Denver for stretches is speed them up. And Carson, you specifically referenced this,

but this really like kind of showed through for me at the end of the first quarter tonight where it's like you just see them making uncharacteristic non-denver Nuggets types of plays. Like you said, rushing a jump shot when there's an opportunity to get something better, you know, just not being as methodical with their execution. I think the best compliment that you can pay a defense, or I should say that the best indicator of a defense really having an effect is when you make an offense or an offensive player play a different way than they typically do. Meaning like if you get them out of their their kind of like tendencies and get them to start like rushing, making mistakes, taking shots they don't normally take,

anytime you get them to like literally lose their head, so to speak, that's a testament to the defense. And again, one of the things that, regardless of what happens in game seven, I think we can say for sure that Denver has really struggled for stretches with this Minnesota defense. They have a way of kind of like holding up underneath that onslaught. And to me, it comes down to being like really deliberate with their offensive execution. It kind of reminds me of game three where it's like just being really good about. handling ball pressure, being patient to get the ball up the floor into your spots,

setting really good screens, kind of executing from there. Honestly, like, there was a stretch early second quarter where Yokic stayed on the floor where he typically doesn't. And I think they did that. I think Michael Malone did that on purpose to try to kind of regain control the situation before he put Yokich out because he knew 31, 14 or whatever the score was at the end of the first quarter, you bail on Yokich there. It could be a 27 point game in a matter of minutes, And honestly, during that stretch, they generated multiple wide open threes off of the Yokic doubles. And they were missing them. But what happened was they got a few offensive rebounds and got a couple putbacks.

And then they went down to the other end. They locked in. They got stops. They actually kind of methodically worked it down to 11, even though they weren't shooting well. And then as soon as Yokch checked out of the game, it was 19 and 90 seconds. It was over that fast. And so really, like, that, that to me is the, is the, is like the kind of like the, the kind of ebb and flow of this series.

Minnesota's defense is oppressive, but Denver is capable of executing against them and scoring. Carson, you had a tweet that you sent out after game five that I thought was really, really fascinating that Denver had a 127 offensive rating in those, in those three games against this defense that we all think is the best, right? And what's crazy about that. that is Boston had the best offense in the league this year at a 122 offensive rating. So just think about that.

That's the level of production you were getting out of that Denver offense. We know that they're capable of scoring against them. They just have to be really deliberate with their execution. As soon as they let go of the rope a little bit, the problem is Minnesota's way more athletic than them. And so as soon as they do let go of the rope in terms of like their discipline and execution, it's not just that they lose, they run into a buzzsaw. And that's why we're seeing these like blowouts in game two and in game in game six where it's like when they let go, they just can't hang.

But before we kind of move forward, I want to make sure that we appropriately kind of focus on Minnesota here because Minnesota has their flaws. You and you two and us or you two and myself, we've discussed that specific set of flaws all season long, having to do with some of their offensive limitations, especially if you can force Anthony Edwards to give up the basketball since he's playing like. he's playing like prime Kobe and MJ these days, right? So like there is obviously limitations there, but their defense is real. They're capable of shaking their opponent's foundation. And when they do, it doesn't really matter what their other flaws are.

It's almost like confidence takes over. And then all of a sudden, Jade McDaniels gets going offensively. All of a sudden, like my Connolly starts being super aggressive and hit and pull up threes and other pull-up jump shots. And like, I just want to credit Minnesota.

I thought they played a hell of a game. I thought Anthony Edwards had an incredible bounce back after that rough game five. There was a report that he went to one of the staffers for Denver. It was like, see you in game seven. That's writing a check, and he had to cash it today, and he did. And so I just want to shout those guys out. So here's the thing.

I still think that Denver is capable of executing and beating this team in game seven. However, the problem with this is you now have put yourself in a situation where the variance of a single basketball game gets you eliminated. And so there's a considerable amount of risk here. As far as it pertains to game six, I don't really necessarily, and I said this to you guys before we actually went live, I don't really see tonight as a huge downmark for Denver in the sense that it's just really hard to beat a team four times in a row under any circumstances, let alone a really good team, right? The damage they did was the damage they did in the first two games. By dropping those first two games, they put themselves in a predicament where they were almost certainly going to face a game seven if they were to win the series. now here we are and I'm going to toss it to you first Logan as we head into game seven I'm assuming we all are sticking with our Denver pick do you still remain confident there

or do you feel like Minnesota has them on the ropes and has a chance to win confidence an interesting word I wouldn't say confident I'm hopeful there's just still other things that need to swing back in Denver's way for them to win I mean I think the biggest thing is the supporting cast. This game is a complete indictment on the supporting cast and what they've done this series. And the first guy that you've got to point the finger at is Jamal Murray. Like the thing with Jamal, too, is he's a rhythm guy, right?

And a lot of scores and a lot of shooters in the NBA are like that, man. You get that first one to go through to nylon and it's like, all right, I'm going to have a good game. And I felt like you could see the confidence kind of leave Jamal's body as this game went along. Like he starts out this game, 0-4, 0-5, and then he's getting these open mid-range looks that he would put up without any hesitation if his shot was falling. And he starts being passive.

It's like what you said, Jason, about a great defense getting you off of your game. And he missed enough early. And they got him off his game where he was second guessing himself and being more passive and passing up open looks. Like, it's a broad blanket statement that you could make for almost any team. But like the second guy has got to pull his weight. He's got to play so much better. Game one, game two and or, excuse me, this is game one and game two.

13 points on 37% true shooting. And this one, he's 10 points on 4 of 18 and 2 of 7 from deep. Like, he's got to be better. Michael Porter Jr. has got to be better, man. In round one, he was probably Denver's second best player against L.A. Like, they needed him. 23 points on 70% true shooting. And this one in this series overall, he's 12 points on 55% true shooting.

And a big thing here with Denver is the fact that they don't have a luxury of depth here. They don't have role players that they get. turn to. Guys, they're benching this game, and they've talked about the bench in this series a ton. I think that's an interesting factor to look at it. Is Holiday going to hit his open looks? Is Christian Braun going to do Brown? Excuse me. Is he going to do something? And this one, they shoot four of 28. The bench does for Denver. Like, they don't really have margins offensively if MPJ and Jamal aren't pulling their weight. They don't have avenues to easy offense. Like, you know, maybe the bore and take, Denver's got to bring energy. They got to bring more

effort, obviously. Or Jamal and MPJ go hit a freaking shot, man. If they can't, it's wraps. Like, Minnesota's going to steamroll them once more. And Yokic can make all the right reads, man. He can make all the right passes. If they're diverting this kind of defensive attention to Yokich and the Nugget supporting cast is not going to make them pay, they're not going to win.

So it may be a boring answer, but like the number two and number three just have to hit open shots, man. They got to alleviate some of this pressure off of Yolkich, because once they do, and you got to stop doubling Yolk it as much. It opens up the floor for him. Everything for Denver gets going. It's on those two guys to get it going in game seven. Absolutely.

Those guys have to be way better. Aaron Gordon, who has been really good in this series, I thought just the decision making tonight, again, he was just chaotic in the first half of this game. And I thought that that was costly where he has been so good. But I do expect Denver to win. And a big reason is that so much of what we've talked about has been an issue of focus.

and of effort and of consistency, which really has been the polar opposite of the Denver team that we saw last year. Like, that's what's so stunning to me is where they really separated from the pack last year was just the consistency of their offensive process, taking care of the basketball, always engaged defensively. They didn't have like a bad game in all of last postseason. They didn't lose a game by double digits. Whereas this year, we've seen obviously all the slow starts and all the carelessness

against the Lakers and they pulled through because they're just that much better. But then you have this series, just the bludgeoning that they take in game too, which I thought was more about like an all-time effort by Minnesota's defense. But of course, like they got sped up and thrown off their rhythm and they weren't ready for that battle. And this game, they just don't have the focus. They went, Jason, from as you say, like three games of offensive perfection, posting an offensive rating of 127 against this defense.

Yokic played two back-to-back masterpieces and they were hitting 45% of their threes. just everything was clicking. They figured out the ball pressure. They were playing so more methodically, making such great collective decisions. And then they're the first team tonight to score 70 points or fewer in a playoff game in eight years. So that's just completely bipolar. But to me, locked in Denver is still the best team in the league. And that's what they showed over these last three games.

But as you say, like, they leave themselves open now to the variance of one game against a really good basketball team that kicked their asses. is legitimately in the first two games of this series, and obviously again tonight. But again, that was just sort of like, you just throw your hands up and it's like, all right, that was never going to happen. They obviously have to be focused from the jump, but I fully expect them to be. That is why I think doubling Yokish makes sense, though. It's just the inconsistency of the supporting cast.

And that's the trend that we've seen. The Lakers found their most success doubling against Yokic. The Timberwolves had by far their best defensive game, doubling him aggressively. It's not a question of him making the right reads. Like we consistently see. He can make those skip passes if you really pressure him with length. Like sometimes they'll come out a little bit high. But generally he's going to make the right read.

It's just a question of, all right, can we contest them? Can we rotate well? Can we run them off the line? Can we force anybody else to make decisions and make shots? Michael Porter, Jr. over his last three games, six points per game on 38% true shooting. This is one of the greatest pure jump shooters in NBA history, I legitimately believe. And he can't make anything right now.

the shots that he's taking are out of rhythm. They're forced even for him. I give him leeway because he's such a crazy contested shot maker, but these are not good shots that he's taking. And Jamal absolutely has to be better. So I do expect them to heavily double Yokich, but I also agree it's not like they figured things out, being like, hey, we can double Yokich.

If the Nuggets jump shooters are hitting, well, then that's still a really, really bad answer. But this year, when you leave Yokich and single coverage on a postup, he's averaged 1.25 points. when you double, the Nuggets average 0.94 points. So a lot of that is just the shot making of the teammates, but like there is a pretty clear answer. There's no good answer to Nikolokic,

and specifically his post-up offense. But the worst answer to me is clearly just letting him work in single coverage like they did in game five. I do think that the bench minutes are certainly crucial for Denver. They have outperformed there, but this was a really night rough. This was a really rough performance tonight. And the Timberwolves were absolutely just better in this game, not just defensively.

Their offensive process was way better. Having Mike Conley back on the floor, you just had more shot making, you had more good decision making out there. That ball was moving. You saw it from the jump. Cat was being proactive as a playmaker. Jane McDaniels was outstanding and he has been pretty rough offensively this series. He was two of 12 from deep coming in a night and he was hitting his open threes, but he was also attacking closeouts.

He was aggressive as a driver. So this Timberwell's offense has had some low lows, but tonight was a pretty high, high. All of that to say, yes, this was a night that was all Minnesota and it was no Denver. But when it comes down to it, all the money on the line, I do think Denver can focus up. I do think they can dial in their offensive process. They have the best player on the floor. And even if Jamal and MPJ aren't shooting well right now, like those are really, really good shooters of the basketball. This is an incredible offense.

I believe one of the three best offenses we've seen this century, and I would bet that to win out on their home floor. Yeah, I'm picking Denver as well. I want to look at this from both perspectives. The Denver win on Sunday would look more or less, I think, like what game three looked like in the sense that I do believe that Minnesota will go back to doubling a lot. And I think that Denver will counter that by going back to a more steady diet of pick and

roll and using Yokic more as a screen and roll guy than as a, as a post guy, just to try to kind of maintain some of that rhythm and flow. And again, we know what Denver is going to do to try to mitigate some of the ball pressure stuff. They're going to have Yokic and Gordon bring the ball up the floor more. Yokic is going to be setting monster screens from the opening tip of this game to really try to free up Jamal and help him get kind of free, right? From there, it's just about them kind of maintaining that methodical approach and then continuing the defensive game plan. Because one of the things we haven't talked a lot about tonight is Denver, I thought,

had a really bad defensive game. And the dead giveaway was like a lot of the same, you know, kind of extra attention they threw at Anthony Edwards wasn't there from game five. A big part of that is I thought they allowed Minnesota operate a lot in semi-transition. And a big part of that is just not ever scoring and constantly being in transition cross-matches and where, you know, when you let Ant really kind of gallop up the floor with a head of steam into like that semi-transition, it's just really difficult to kind of corral. him and make him play passive basketball. And then I also want to credit, and I thought he had a

really good playmaking game, even above and beyond just assist totals, just like getting the defense and rotation and making easy reads, which by the way is contagious and it kind of sets everything else up, right? So we know what a Denver win would look like. I think it would look a lot like game three for Denver going into game seven. Minnesota, I do think has a legitimate path here, though. And I think it kind of comes down to a couple of key things. First of all, you, you know, you have to throw a hellacious defensive punch from the opening tip. Like we talked about earlier, you can shake Denver's foundation. And when you do, they kind of let go with a rope mentally and they can kind of fall apart.

So like you got to throw that sledgehammer at that foundation at the opening tip and see if you can crack it a little bit. Right. That's a big piece of it. Just a lot of defensive intensity, which by the way, in game three, they very much did not bring. And that was a big part of what Anthony Edwards talked about after the game, right? Secondly, Anthony Edwards, in my opinion, is probably a top five player in the world and is flat out unguardable in the majority of situations. And so what if he just goes in and has a red hot pull-up jump shooting game? You know, that's a factor that has to be kind of weighed in here. You mentioned Jada McDaniels.

He got kind of going in a big way offensively tonight. Some of the stuff like Kat and Nasreed posting up, a big part of that I thought was Denver didn't really bring the physicality. I think they've demonstrated that they can flatten out cat's postups and turn him into more of an over-the-top shot maker and kind of limit his effectiveness. I do agree that Mike Conley just in a lot of ways is just kind of like blue guy is kind of like a cliche that we use in basketball, but he just kind of makes everything come together, especially with this decision-making of that group, right? So like again, I'm picking Denver, but Minnesota absolutely has a chance to win this game. There's a pathway for them there. I wouldn't even say they have a chance. There is a version of this game that they will win if things go a certain way.

They have that type of firepower. And so this to me, I would put it roughly, we'll go around quickly. I'm going to put it at about like 6535 in favor of Denver. What do you think, Carson? Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win.

Yep, that's me. Clever Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skisks. hits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill,

waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so just so you're not just so you. y'all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. And yes, I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fans, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tontons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That is exactly what I was going to say. And I agree with everything that you laid out. But I do expect Denver to be much more prepared for the physicality of this game,

to be prepared for that sort of elacious defensive effort. Like if you're not in game seven and if you are, as you say, just giving the sort of lazy defensive effort that we saw tonight, I thought some of the rotations were really poor. That's not going to happen in a game seven. So, yeah, I think 6535 is a good spot. Yeah, that's the exact same number I'd say too. No way.

Yeah, no, that's so weird. That's so weird. I was going to go 70-30, but I was like, that's a little. You guys are cowards. That's a good number. No, I wanted to see Carson. I wanted Carson to come out with like the 973. Like I wanted Carson just to just lean into his Yokic standum with full force.

Minnesota is great. I think these are two guys teams. So, okay, on that note, let's move around to the other two series real quick. We'll just spend about 10 minutes on each of them. So I want to start with, let's start with New York, Indiana. game four and five, kind of similar to what we talked about tonight, not really a whole lot for you to learn about in the sense that, you know, we have this bizarre game four where the Knicks just let go of the rope.

Basically for the first time all postseason, it seems like every other time they've been up against it and they find themselves in a 10, 12 point deficit. They would just somehow nix their way back into the game, you know, and they let go the rope, right? Then we go back to game five in Indy, or game five back in MSG. And it kind of, it was like a little bit of like game one.

one where Tyrese Halliburton's weirdly super passive, but at the same time, the Knicks just bring this hellacious, desperate effort, and they pull out the win. Rick Carlisle super pissed off after the game about their effort level. We'll start with you, Logan. How are you guys feeling about game six

back in Indiana tomorrow night? You have to be P-Oed at Indiana's effort level, man. That's the biggest thing. I was, oh, Jason, I don't know if you saw it, man. I was all in on the Pacers. I said they're going to mop the Knicks last two games. The Knicks are tired.

depleted. They're going to run these boys. And I bet on the girl that doesn't play defense and I bet against a team that plays really hard most nights. And I feel quite foolish for it. Like New York just has bankable things that are consistently going to show up night to night in the way that the Pacers don't. The first bedrock of this team is Jalen Brunson. And the Indiana Pacers have no idea how to contain or how to defend him. Last game, game five, 44 points, seven assists on 58% true shooting. These numbers were midway through game five, so they're probably, there's a few more shot attempts on them for sure, so they're not fully right. This is about in the third quarter. Brunson was 14 to 21 on Nemhardt in the series, 11 to 28 on Neesmith, and three of 11 versus

McConnell. So I think a big thing for the Pacers is you've just got to match these Smith's minutes. You have to have him on Brunson as much as possible. He just gives you the best route to maybe winning against him. I don't think it's going to work. Like I think, Brunson has been dissecting doubles. He's been getting everything that he wants. And so, again, that's just something that you can bank on with New York. Jalen Brunson's going to show up. The other thing that you can bank on is just how New York has crushed the glass and the effort, man.

You mentioned it, Jason. They're plus 32 in total boards in this series. They're plus 18 and offensive boards. And in game five, they win 53 to 29. Overall, they win 20 to 5 on the offensive glass. And they dominate second chance points, 26 to 9. Like, that's the scary thing about Indiana, man, is it feels like, sure, New York does not have many quality basketball players. They are playing their like eighth and ninth men as starters.

It's ridiculous how many bodies and how many guys they're out. But I expect this team to play hard, really hard. I expect the role players to do their jobs to a great level. I expect Jalen Brunson to put the team on his back. And the Pacers scare me. Like, are the Pacers going to play defense? Is Tyrese Halliburton going to shoot more than 10 shots? That's the biggest question mark to me, too, dude, as a superstar player.

The Pacers were scoreless for six minutes in the third quarter of game five. And it's like, where is Halliburton? What are we doing? You got to take a shot. So Indiana just scares me to bet on after I put all my chips in on them, man. Are they going to play defense? Are they going to give me effort? Is Halliburton going to shoot enough shots?

And the other guy that I point the finger at is Pascal Seaccom. I've just been consistently disappointed at him not successful. exceeding and attacking mismatches. And like, this is a small Knicks team that is routinely trotting out four guards in Hartenstein. That's a scenario that Siakum's just got to dominate. So when I look at these two teams, I just think New York has more bankable and consistent things that they're going to do on a nightly basis. I think the Pacers can get hot. I expect them to match that effort and energy, but they burn me, man.

And I'm scared about betting on Indiana again. They just have way more red flags to me than New York. New York may be lacking quality basketball players. but I know Brunson and the boys are going to bring it. Hard pivot from Logan from where he was at after game four. I expect Indiana to win game six. I would take the Knicks to win this series in seven. I don't necessarily disagree with a ton that you said, Logan,

like the reason that I ultimately have a little bit more faith in a Knicks team that is so shorthanded is because Brunson has much more consistently played up to the superstar or friend superstar top 15 guy, whatever you want to call him, level that he has earned recognition for, whereas Hallie, although he had an amazing stretch in games three and four, this series has been much less consistent with the aggression.

And so I absolutely would bet on them having the best player on the floor in the biggest game. I would bet on them winning the effort category. And then I think they've gotten enough in terms of spot-up shooting. I still think there are some really good connective playmakers there, guys who make really instinctual plays defensively. They still have more of defensive foundation, even without OG. In a do-or-die spot, I would lean the Knicks.

But for game six, it's just tough for me to see the Knicks going into Indiana. And I know that they have this ability to, like, summon this superhuman effort within themselves. But they didn't in game four. Game four was finally the spot where they were like, oh, man, that was the one to steal. Game three, where we shoot 50-something percent from three. Dante gives us 35. They couldn't get up for that specific game.

And obviously we saw tonight, like, when you are the team up three, two, going on the road, it's tough to summon the same level of effort that the home team has. And Indiana has been really good at home. They haven't lost a home game in these playoffs. And that's where it's like, okay, now they have clear basketball advantages. They have nine real quality basketball players. They have two stars on the floor to the Knicks one. They play super fast and can just build those.

leads, especially at home. I'm with you on like Siakum has to play those small ball looks off the floor. He has to be better as a mismatch attacker. And that goes from Miles Turner as well. And those guys have to rebound better because there's no reason for the Knicks to beat you on the glass when they are playing this super small ball look. And that's a win for them because Deuce McBride is just better than precious. And it allows them to match your pace more effectively and bring ball pressure.

And they have more shooting, all these things that were big in game five. But with the home crowd behind. them knowing that they have to bring that sort of energy and ultimately having more weapons. I do think Indiana probably takes game six. So I'm actually a little bit more optimistic about the Knicks winning game six. I think I lean slightly towards Indiana in that game. It's probably like a 55-45 for me. I think it's going to be a really close game.

I think the underrated part of game four that people are forgetting is it was like a really quick turnaround. It was basically a day and a half after game three. In game three, it was very much a heartbreaking end to that game. Right. So I think that plays a role. Especially with Jalen Brunson dealing with his foot injury. We're not just talking about not having a quick turnaround.

We have an extra day in here. The Nixon Pacers played two days ago and they don't play again until tomorrow. And so you got two full days off. That's big for Jaylen Brunson's foot. I think one of the things that Tom Thibodeo figured out, and he figured it out earlier in the series, but he did it with the starting lineup in game five, is just kind of understanding that Deuce McBride is one of his five best players.

and there's just way too much with presses. There's a play in game, I think it was in game five, that to me, like, perfectly encapsulated the problem with precious to chew. He catches in the left corner wide open for three. Doesn't take the shot, drives the baseline, and shoots a floater short off the front of the rim. And you're like, oh, man. So, like, in one of the specific things from a matchup standpoint

with Deuce McBride on the floor that becomes a problem for the pacer's, is they can't stash Halliburton on Josh Hart because Josh Hart's just a wrecking ball in the offensive glass and it becomes a problem. I still think I'd put Tyrese on Josh Hart. I just don't think they'll do it. The main reason why I'd put Tyrese on Josh Hart is I think you could hedge and recover

and get away with a late close out on Josh Hart when he slips to the three point line. And then again, I would confront the rebounding issue more as a team. But they're not going to put him on Josh Hart. I just don't think Rick Carlisle wants that physical mismatch. Dante Even Chenzo on Miles McBride can both, both hit picking pop threes at a pretty high level. And Juice McBride did an amazing job in Game 5 of just kind of making the next read in line

to kind of get the defense and rotation and kind of take advantage of it. Really, when it comes down to it for me, even though Indiana actually has won the half-court battle so far through five games, they're at 100.8 points per 100-half-court plays. The Knicks are at 100 flat in the series. But I do think a big part of that was the blowout in Game 4 kind of poisoning the data a little bit. I think I think I trust New York's half-court offense a little bit better. And so think of it like this from the standpoint of the odds. I think the Pacers, I give them like a 55-45-45 chance to win game six, right? But I think I give it like 80, 20 in favor of the Knicks in game seven. So for me, just from

the standpoint of like a basic statistical analysis, the Knicks have a pretty good chance to win game six and a really good chance to win game seven. And to me, that makes them the clear favorite. I don't want write them off entirely. But yeah, I think Jalen Brunson is the best player. I think that they're just a little bit more consistent with their effort and energy on both ends of the floor. I just think they're a better basketball team. You know, the Halliburton piece, and you guys, Logan, you broke it down beautifully. But like, one of the things with Halliburton is like, he was taking 11-3s a game and hitting over 40% of them for a few weeks before that game five. And then he goes out and takes four of them. And like, I did, I did this bit on my show after that game.

You know, I think every single player archetype has a downside. I think, you Yokich has a little bit of this too with his playmaking where it's like all of a sudden in game two, he's passing out of a single coverage. You know, and it's like, dude, your team's falling apart. You got to be aggressive. You know what I mean? And like that is by the way, LeBron had that a lot over the years where it's like he's just continuing to make the right play. And it's like, yeah, but we need you to kind of take over the game here. And so some of that is kind of a natural side effect of his, his personality as a basketball player. But I think it gets exacerbated. with his age and some of the stakes at play here, because this is this first time being the best player on a championship team. Best player on a playoff team. Yeah, exactly. I misspoke. The best player on a team that's actually making a playoff run,

it's a different vibe entirely than being in a supporting role, right? So I lean I lean New York. I probably lean in that 6535 for them to win the series at this point. I'm feeling pretty comfortable about that. So let's move on to let's move on to the, Maverick Thunder series. This to me has been a really fascinating exhibition of the downsides of having a really young team. And one of the main things that I point to there is like, you know, around the league, we're seeing youth actually win, but not youth in the early 20s. We're seeing

youth in the late 20s win. It's the it's the prime guys. It's the guys in that 25 to 29 range that have kicked the shit out of the 30 to 35 guys, right? And that has been kind of the big story of this And one of the things that's really noticed that I've really noticed in this series for the between the Thunder and the Mavs is just the thunder have been unable to reach their ceiling through a lot of young guy decision making mistakes. And the Mavs have had issues with their stars being consistent. But in terms of overall process, they've been more diligent about getting the right shots and playing for each other and playing to their strengths, which I think is manifested every single time that they've really put their foot on the gas.

As a matter of fact, the two losses to me primarily came down to Luca just sucking in game one in game four. And as long as Luca reaches a certain floor, I think they're going to win. And so we're heading back to Dallas for game six, which I believe is on Saturday. We'll start with you, Carson. Where are you at with this series right now? I'm confident in Dallas, and I would pick them to close it out at home. This should have been over in five. if not for an absolute Luca disaster class in game four. And of course, Shea coming through huge clutch in the well as well.

But even Kyrie couldn't make shots in the fourth quarter of that game. Like that was just such a collective meltdown. Clearly we are seeing a more consistent level from this Dallas team because it's exactly like you say, not only has this not been a good Luca series. Last game he was really good. Kyrie, a lot of it to me has just been so consistently seeing two defenders and he's playmaking well. but also I would have liked to see him assert himself more in some of these spots and maybe even go away from pick and roll and just go to work in isolation. He's such a great shotmaker.

Like, he to me hasn't quite had the offensive impact you would like to see. Neither of them have had like the sort of collective big night that we know that they're capable of. Partly as a product of scheme, but also just as a product of their performance, the level that they're playing at. And still they're up three, two. And again, this series should have been over by now. So I have a lot more confidence in Dallas's role players right now. I think that PJ Washington and Derek Jones are kind of running circles around what you're seeing from the OKC wings in terms of shot making from PJ, but also just in terms of the

physicality, the athleticism, how they're making plays. They are consistently getting the ball to those corners when you're seeing two guys sent at Tyree and Luca. And they're making shots. And on the flip side, I just think OKC's offense is kind of broken down. both these teams are having to deal with awesome rim protection. Like the efficiency in the restricted area for both these teams is just brutal. It's like way below the rest of the field in this series.

And you got to give props to Chet there and you got to give props to Gafford lively there. But one team is still producing. One team is still getting good open looks in the corners. And the other team is just really struggling to move the ball. They're at times forcing finishes, which is just not going to work out when you're dealing with this level of rim protection. And they're forcing some shots from beyond the arc as well, like where you make an extra swing pass and you can get a better look. And they also just aren't really knocking down even the decent looks that they're getting from 3 O KC. I do think it's mostly a product of

just not having very good shot quality though. So you can start Isaiah Joe like last game and then you can't roam off of Josh Giddy super easily. But Isaiah Joe wasn't on as a three point shooter last game, nor was Kason Wallace, nor was Aaron Wiggins. Those guys have to to make shots to ultimately figure things out for OKC. And J-Dub has just been really, really rough, has not been nearly the second shot creator that they've needed, hasn't been able to consistently create advantages, also just has struggled as a shooter.

Like, he's just off. So when I think about where Dallas is at without getting like really good Lucan, Kyrie consistently, they're just checking more boxes. They're physical. The defensive foundation is so strong. I think they can win even more convincingly on the glass than they have in some of these games. So I would confidently expect them to finish out this series.

I'm with you. I just think OKC, they're incredible what they've done for being so young. They're the youngest one seed in NBA history. That is awesome. What an accomplishment. But up and down this roster, the dudes other than Shay just aren't ready for this moment yet. Yeah, the supporting cast has really let Oklahoma City down. And so when you couple in the other factors, like, you know,

SGA's been pulling his weight. Like he's 30 points last game, this series. He's 32, 10, and 7 on 59% true shooting. I know you mentioned this last episode, Carson, when you're facing this kind of defensive intensity and pressure and these kind of packed lanes and all this defensive attention, it really is remarkable that SGA has been this effective. And he's play-maked well.

Like, he's seven assists in this series. He'd have way more if his boys could hit a shot. Like, they're really letting him down. J-dub is the guy that I point the finger at the most. game four, he's 14 points on 5 of 19 from the field. Game 5, he's 12 points on 6 or 13. And you can't overstate like how important three-point shooting is to this team. They were number one and three-point percentage in the regular season.

Game 5, they shoot 10 of 40. This series, they've been at 35% against Dallas. And outside of game one, they've shot 35% or below 35%, excuse me, from deep in four consecutive games against Dallas. So you couple the fact that Oklahoma City has consistently gotten very little from their supporting cast. Dallas has gotten everything. And then you get to the physicality department, which is why I really give the edge to Dallas. They've won every game on the glass outside of game one.

They're plus 12 in defensive rebounds or excuse me, total rebounds or plus nine in offensive rebounds. Like those are just things that don't change. Like I trust Dallas's defense. I trust them on the glass. If Luca can shut up and stop crying. to the refs and do it he did in game five. Like I'm very confident that the Dallas is going to come through and handle business. But it really comes down to Oklahoma City supporting cast.

And I just don't think they have done enough to propel Shea. Shea has done everything you could have asked for him in this series. Like he is going above and beyond. And I'm really disappointed at how the supporting cast has let him down in this series. Yeah, the stat that I gave to just kind of demonstrate the bad process is they're actually shooting 42% on wide open 3s in the series. They're making them. The problem is they're only generating 16 of them.

They generated 23 of them per game in the regular season. They were just so much more diligent about that. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

within probably 10 days I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clipper Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jay and I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Thank you finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of taun tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two.

Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something I've noticed for a long time. I work with a lot of young basketball players, obviously, through a bunch of different avenues. I work with the college kids that come back to town. I work with my high school team that I coach. and one of the most frequent things I notice,

and I've used this kind of like this story on the show before, but like young basketball players struggle to identify what's working and repeat it and then identify what's not working and like trim that fat out of whatever they're doing. They have a tendency to kind of bounce back and forth

and not really be aware of the value of what every possession is. And I think the dead giveaway there is like, look at how Dallas is like, PJ Washington has it going. So they're just like hunting him with skip passes every single time he's being left open. You can literally see Kyrie and Luca like just trying to find reasons to give him the basketball. You know what I mean?

And with Oklahoma City, it's kind of just, they're just playing so read and react, but not like not with any sort of diligence and bigger picture sense of what's happening in the game. Everyone's just kind of playing. You know what I mean? And like I'll see that with young players where it's like you'll run a big. basic action. Maybe it's a ball screen where you're attacking a specific mismatch and this one guy can't guard when a guy's going downhill at him and you'll get an easy layup. And then you'll go down the floor the next time and I'll be sitting there thinking like, let's do the same thing again. And then someone will just go off script and take a random pull-up jumper. And you're like, what are you doing? We just got an easy layup doing this. So how about we do that until they figure out how to stop it and then we figure out what we're going to do next, right? Like basketball doesn't need to be as difficult as it is sometimes. And like, Honestly, like one of the big things that's dawned me in this series, I actually do think Oklahoma City has more offensive talent than Dallas.

And I think they've demonstrated that throughout the season, right? The problem is, is like, Dallas is just playing better basketball. They're just playing a more diligent and smart brand of basketball. I do think one of the things that has stood out in a big way is Dallas's defense is for real, particularly at the perimeter and at the rim. And this is one of those things I remember after the trade. They went on an East Coast road trip. And that was the game where Max Drew sit the,

that was the trip where Max Truc beat him on a, on the full court game winner, if you guys remember. But their defense was just straight ass on that road trip. Like it was so bad. And I remember sitting there thinking like, man, like, I don't know if this team is capable of really locking in on that in the way that they need to.

But they did down the stretch of the season. And like I legitimately have been super impressed by them in this playoff run. And one of the things too that I want to say before we, move on. Tyree, there's some funky box scores in there. And, and like, I get it. I know I'm a Kyrie fan. But, like, I think he's been pretty damn good in this series.

Like, Tyree is just a basketball player, man. Like, he just does all of these little things really well. And, and just kind of has a feel for, like, the timeliness of what's happening in a game. Like, he didn't have, I can't even remember how many points you scored in, in game five. Wouldn't much. but he hit this like huge pull-up three. I want to say it was in the early fourth quarter that put them up 14.

And like he hadn't even been being aggressive, but he was aggressive on that possession. And it almost felt like he was like, I can hit this shot. I'm going to hit right here. It's just going to change the mental dynamic of the game because 14 just feels insurmountable in a lot of ways. And so, yeah, like I just want to shout out Dallas.

I've been really, really impressed with them. They flipped me in the last month of the season. I had them considerably lower in my contender rankings. and I ended up moving them up to third behind Denver and Boston at the very end of the season after watching that last stretch just because I thought they were peeking at the right time and I really thought they were figuring some things out defensively and like it's been cool to kind of see that come to fruition

and I've just been really, really impressed by them and honestly I think Dallas, if Dallas and Denver both escape, I think that would be a really, really fun Western Conference finals and to me, that does feel like a proper conference finals type of matchup. Before we get out of here tonight, I've decided I've made an executive decision. We're going to do an additional segment. Not going to be a long one. We're going to rank the top five remaining players in the NBA playoffs.

Okay. We're going to do it as a group effort and get into a little bit of a debate. Okay. So let's just start with this. We all agree that Nicole, Yokich is at number one, correct? Does anybody want to argue that at all whatsoever? No, agreed. Okay. So we've Nicole Yokic at number one. Who's number two?

And let's start with you, Carson. Who's the second best player remaining in the playoffs right now? This is in terms of who would I want for the remainder of these playoffs, like based on the level they've been playing at? Purely in a vacuum, playing at this level, in a vacuum, but within the scope of this playoff. So for instance, I want you to evaluate Anthony. Edwards and guys like Aunt, guys like Jalen Brunson. I want you to evaluate them within the lens of how they're playing in this postseason run. So that's what makes this tricky because I do think that Luca is the second best player remaining big picture.

I also think Luca has been the second best player on his own team in this playoff run. And even though he figured a lot of things out last game and got his attitude together and the pull-up jumpers were falling in a way they just haven't been. and his decision making was great, and he was getting downhill more, he was engaged defensively. He's been so, so, I don't even know if I would say up and down.

It's been more bad than good, considerably more bad than good for Luca, considering the standard that we hold him to. To me, aunt's been the top two guy in this playoff run. And part of that is like, yeah, he's been unbelievable as a pull-up shooter, and he finally had a clunker in game five

where those shots just weren't falling, and that was rough. but also, like, I really like a lot of the shots that he's getting as a pull-up shooter. I don't think it's always going to be this good, but I also do think it's legitimately better than it was in the regular season, and he has taken a jump in every postseason. He's defending at a high level. The athleticism just does not stop his willingness to dominate a game. I feel like he's earned two right now, and that's not big picture.

Like, I would still have Luca and I would have SGA higher on my player rank. rankings, but Ant's been the top two guys in these playoffs so far. Ant's number two for me as well. Like when the difference I would make is I think Luca's ceiling is higher, but I think Ant's floor has consistently been higher in these playoffs. Like, you know, Ant's drawing all these double teams too when his pull-up jump shooting isn't hitting and he's making good decisions.

But what we're talking about on our show too is the fact that, you know, when Ann gets a double, he's not really going to make you, he's not going to punish you for the worst part. Like he's not ever going to kick weak side to the corner or like, that nailing the coffin type pass that's going to, he's going to make the right decision. And so that's why I say on, like, it is ceiling when Luca's drawing those kind of coverages and he's on and he's strong and he's getting downhill. Luca, I think, is definitively number two. But like the floor that we've gotten from Ann has been so phenomenal.

And I mean, Jason, you say he's unguardable like already. I do, man. Nobody can stay in front of the kid. And yeah, the level he's been at, I think he's number two. And I'm going to spoil it a little bit. guys, I think I'd have Luca maybe four or five out of the remaining guys. Like, just with where he's been at, where his floor's been at and where he's been at consistently, Luca's probably lower than I would have him at full health.

So I think it's unquestionable that Ant has been the second best player in this postseason run based solely on results, based on how he's played to this point. I am going to bump him to three for Luca, though, in the sense that even though, even though, had some really bad moments. Like if I was picking players that I'd want to lead my team going into the conference finals, for instance, I just trust Luca a little bit more with his experience and a little bit more of his like half court surgery type of stuff to be a little bit more resilient to adjustments and things along those lines over the course of the series.

And it's just a respect to the fact that I do believe Luca is the second best player in the world right now. So I'm going to go with Luca at two on my list, but I would put Aunt at three. I'm assuming, Carson, you would put at or you'd put Luca at three as well, right? I would, although I have been concerned by a lot of what we've seen. And I think, like even as his jumpers start falling more, just the fact that he hasn't been getting downhill consistently. And I think the knee is definitely a component in that. Like, we are definitely not seeing the Luca that we're used to.

So I don't want to be overly encouraged just because game five was really good. But I do just think he's earned the recognition just because of how great of a basketball player he is in the offensive mastery. Long story short, yes, I would still have him at three, even though I definitely don't think he's been at that level consistently in these playoffs. Okay. So, Logan, since you think Luca's at 17 and he's a bum, who do you have at three? He's not a bum. Thank you for putting those words in my mouth, Jason. I'm not super encouraged consistency-wise, and I agree with you guys, like at full strength,

I think Luca's definitively number two, but I think they gave him some of that good, good before game five, somebody at Big Ben special in his leg, and something like that. I think they gave him, you know, somebody at a, you ain't going to feel it during the game, and I think it was able to get him to lock in a little more.

I am just skeptical at how healthy he's going to be, how much he's mowing at the refs, how much he's concerned with that aspect at a game. Mr. Consistent has been SGA, and like I just bank on it. Like, I think that he might be the most consistent score in basketball. If I need 30, man, like, no, I wouldn't put him over Yokic, but I might put him too. SGA just has an unstoppable skill set. And I think his playmaking numbers would look better if his teammates were hidden looks.

Like, he's been so good as a decision maker. He's been so great at dealing with doubles. He's gotten any bucket that he's wanted. And in the fourth quarter of these games, like he's still. stepped his game up. It's been about the consistency for me in these playoffs. And Luca has just consistently played below his means. Is that still a really good freaking basketball player? Yeah. But I'd rather take the guy that has been consistently great and great in almost every single game in these playoffs. And that's been SGA. And so again, this is nothing against Luca.

I think Luca at full strength is number two. But I wouldn't put him, I wouldn't put him over SGA in these playoffs thus far. Okay. So I have Carson at Yokic, Aunt Luca. And I have Logan at Yokic AntsGA. Correct. I am going to tweak mine because I made a mistake. This was something I intended to do, but I made a mistake. I'm moving Ant down to four and I'm putting Jason Tatum at three. And here's the reason why.

I'm a huge believer in Ant. I think he might actually be my favorite player. And I think that Ant is going to be better than Jason Tatum within 18 months. Like I think that's how highly I think of Ant. Ant right now, though, is just a little. bit volatile like any other 22-year-old in terms of his like just ability to handle the the random kind of curve balls that the NBA playoffs can throw at you kind of like him just getting completely like just completely blindsided by the double teaming in game five for instance

i also think aunt has had some really bad defensive moments in this postseason and he's one of those guys that's like devastating on the ball and he had i thought he had his best defensive game of the postseason tonight against jemal murray He was great. Much better screen navigation, just stayed attached to him a lot better. But a big part of what happened that kind of hurt the team in game three and game four was and it just kept losing Jamal on screens. And that's a big weakness in his game at this point. Jason Tatum can be a frustrating basketball player. God knows that I've gone into that in excruciating detail over the course of the last few years. And there are things that I despise

about his approach and that I wish that he could get better at in terms of his like scoring resiliency. in terms of like his ability to be efficient. Like he shot over 50% for the first time all postseason last night. Like he's not having a good scoring playoff run. That said, I think Jason Tatum has been underrated in a bunch of key areas in this playoff run. First of all, I think he's been unbelievable defensively.

He's arguably their smartest and most impactful team defender in terms of like just his versatility, his ability to switch everything like, oh, let's put him on Evan Mobley or like to let's put him on Evan Mobley to start a playoff series so that we can switch ball screens and we know we're not giving up anything there rebounding or or in protection even like they there's just a lot of of upside there he's an excellent rebounder in a way that I think is really underrated at his position he's averaging over 10 rebounds in the cavs series he another big piece of it too for me is like he's uniquely

kind of like a nice fit with this group because his passivity and is willing to willingness to just make the right play kind of allows a lot of the other guys to kind of stay to be more impactful. I think the big weakness of his is like identifying when to be like, no, give me the damn ball and get out of my way. And that's why I don't have him higher on this list. That's why I think that Yokic and Luca are clearly better basketball players than him. I think they just are better at identifying that balance between playing in the flow of the game versus being really aggressive. So I just think, I think right now Tatum's floor is so much higher than Ants, just because he's a more experienced, better,

kind of like all around basketball player that I'm putting him at three. But to be clear to Ant, I think he's been the second best player in this playoff run to this point. I'm just saying, like, if I was picking players for a seven game series that started tomorrow in a vacuum, I think Tatum is just a little bit more reliable in all of the other areas of the game. Where would you guys have, would you guys have Tatum in your top five?

So I feel very confident about Ant above him. To me, the gap in defensive consistency does not offset the fact that at the end of the day, I don't think there's any world in which Jason Tatum could have done, could be doing what Anthony Edwards has consistently done just as that takeover offensive number one, 30 and night on 66% true shooting. And yes, hasn't been great as a playmaker, has been mostly good enough. when we are talking about projecting this, as I mentioned, like he has an effective field goal percentage of 57 and a half

on pull-up jumpers in the playoffs versus 44% in the regular season. That is not going to be sustained. That is like better than any single pull-up jump shooter in basketball this year. But he is in a rhythm right now. And like that rhythm has been pretty consistent over the course of these 10 games. I just think Ann is a significantly better score of the basketball at the end of the day. I think his unrelenting downhill pressure combined with the fact that right now he's just way better as a pull-up shooter.

I just don't think Tatum could do what he's doing right now. And I don't agree that Tatum is in some ways like a very good connective number one. But also when you're in Boston, you get to have the luxury of doing that because you can have offensive explosions from Derek White for a series. You can have Jalen Brown be your best offensive player, which I would argue up until last game, like, well, he's been their best score throughout this playoffs. I would say Jalen Brown has been. So I would have Tatum at five.

I would have SGA confidently at four. I think his floor as a score is just outstanding. And again, I think he is capable of providing a consistency there that I don't get from Tatum. SGA is shooting 53% from the midrange and even facing, as we've talked about, a great defense with great athletes on the perimeter. Derek Jones Jr. is a tough draw. Packed paints.

He's the best downhill guard in the league. And he can't get all the way downhill right now. and he is still killing you with great volume and efficiency. He's still making the right reads, and he's having a real defensive impact. I think SGA is a better basketball player than Jason Tatum, both within the context of this run and outside of it. Five is tough because I really have so much respect for Jalen Brunson

and what he's done as an offensive number one. But I do think that is the threshold at which, like, the all-around value of Tatum does surpass us. the singular shot-making value that you get from Jalen Brunson and playmaking because he's drawing such obscene amounts of offensive attention. Like I do think Brunson is clearly a better offensive player, but I do think Tatum is the better all-around basketball player, and I would take him going forward.

But that's even close for me. So I'd have Tatum five. Okay, hold on first, hold on for a second, Logan. So I've got, I'm actually putting Jalen Brunson at five. I think that in, when you cut when you kind of, yeah, well, again, we're splitting hairs here. This is a tier of players that's probably six long, not five long,

but we're forcing it to five for the sake of some good debate. So I'd have SG8 six, and I certainly don't see much of a gap, really between three and six, really between two and six. I don't see much of a gap there. Like Yok is kind of on a tier on his own. So don't take this as an insult,

Thunder fans. I just am kind of giving this as a, as an opportunity to shout out Jalen Brunson. Jalen Brunson, to me, has had kind of a similar job to Shea in this postseason and I just think he's done a better job of it. In fact, I would argue that like, there's more pressure on Jalen Brunson to produce every single game. Like, to put it simply, like, we just talked about how we think the Knicks are going to beat the Pacers. And it

requires Brunson to go score 70 points in those two games or 35, 40 in a one game if they close it out. Like, it is an absolute necessity for Jalen Brunson to just completely tattoo those guys as as a score as a score the entirety of one or both of those games. And he just continually shows up every single time they need him to. I think he's one of those guys too where his like lack of physical imposition on the game kind of makes people think what he's doing is fluky. And look, I need to really, really dive into the tape to kind of, and I plan on doing that this summer to kind of get like a better feel for what makes

Jalen Brunson such a dominant score. My on the surface kind of a take on it is like kind of 30,000 feet. It's just he's the ultimate. It reminds me of Kyrie in the sense that. like he literally has every move in the book. He can shoot step back threes. He can hit forward moving threes off of ball screens. He can do it going both directions.

He can hit pull up mid-range jump shots in ball screens. He can hit turn your back to the basket, fade away jump shots in ISO and post-up situations. He's got all of the floaters and hooks from the short range. And he can finish at the rim. And he's a great playmaker. And so like he literally can do it all. And that in and of itself, I think kind of gives him a level of versatility that he can always kind of throw a change up at whatever defender is guarding him. And that makes him kind of

super resilient in these situations. And so even though like, yeah, in a vacuum, I would take Shea to run a franchise because I think he's younger and more physically gifted and obviously like there's a lot of upside there. But to me, like Jalen Brunson deserves his flowers for this playoff run. And I think he's just done a better job of what Shea's doing on a nightly basis and a higher pressure situation for a team who needs it more. And so I put Jailen Brunson at five. So Logan, I have. have you at so that puts my list at yokich luca tatum aunt brunson carson's at yokech aunt luca sGA taitam logan i have you at yokech aunt sGA and we need your four and five luca and then brunson i just want to ask real quick jason what do you mean about by his lack of physical imposition like on the game

like i think brunson's a pretty physical guy no he plays a physical brand what i say what i mean is he's not particularly fast. He's not particularly strong. Well, he is a strong player for his size, but he's not, like, particularly big. He's not particularly tall or athletic. Like, he just, he's straight up beating these dudes with,

with skill development and, and just IQ and savvy and audacity and just, like, alpha dog, you can't guard me. Like, he's just doing it. I'll tell you that the ball don't stop would love him. He's just straight hooping these guys into the dirt. Oh my God, he must love him.

But he's no Jamal Crawford. I'll tell you that. The reason I would go with Brunson and like SGA over Tatum, you make a great argument, I think Jason about what. So you have Tatum outside the top five entire. I wouldn't. I mean, I'm the resident Boston Celtics and Jason Tatum hater. I will wear the hat. I will wear the hat.

I will be the spokesperson for the campaign. Yeah. Like I think you make a great case for Tatum with what he brings defensively, with how great he has been on the board. and how imperative that is to Boston's winning formula. Like without Christopps-Sports, Ingus, Boston is kind of at a significant size and interior disadvantage with Horford. Like, you need Tatum to play that role. And so I think he's great at those things and all the extra things.

But I just don't think Jason Tatum could do what Jalen Brunson is doing right now. I don't think Jason Tatum could do what Shea Gilgis Alexander is doing right now. Like, Jason Tatum has such a high ceiling when his pull-up jumper is going. And that's great. but I've also seen Jason Tatum's offensive floor, and it's a pit, man. It is a big hole. Like, I just,

Tatum brings such a lack of offensive consistency that I would always take Brunson and SGA over them because I can just count on these guys to consistently deliver. I don't trust Jason Tatum to consistently deliver. Like, he's got all the tools. He's got all the traits, but it's about putting it together. And SGA and Brunson to me clear him as number one scores,

and number one playmakers. And I just value their offensive skill sets more than Tatum. I don't know why you guys have surprised. Like, I had Tatum outside of my top 10 players. I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. Tatum is honestly, it's not a big gap for me. Like, I do view Tatum more highly as an overall basketball player.

However, what Brunson is doing right now is ridiculous. And there's nothing fluky about it. Like, I compared him, I don't know, six weeks ago maybe. Or really he and this whole makes. team to being very Iverson and early 2006ers-esque in that you have this team that is built on high effort, defensive-minded guys. It's different, of course, because now it's 2024 and most these dudes can shoot, but you have no other shot creators and you have this small guard who has to bear a ridiculous offensive burden. And it's not possible to be super efficient under those

circumstances. Like Jalen Brunson's true shooting percentage is 54 in these playoffs. Well, below league average. There's no question he has been one of the best offensive engines because he is the only reliable shot creator. And my God, he's going to get into some of offense. Yeah. None of them are bad shots. Yeah. None of them are bad shots because they literally need hit. Like if he takes a tough term out of beta way, you're like, that's the highest value shot. They can get on this possession. And then honestly, like, most of one of the things that you're hitting there too with the 54% for shooting percentage, it's being amplified by offensive rebounding because he's just getting so many additional attempts. True. So what I think is really interesting about the Brunson Tatum dynamic is

like there's no question that both of them is very much engineered for their current situation. Like Jason Tatum is never going to need to carry the offensive burden that Jalen Brunson does as a score as a creator, him being such a strong part of that connected elite when they're dialed in defense. That's what the Boston Celtics need. Whereas I think if Jason Tatum were on the New York Knicks, Like you would not be seeing the level of offensive production that you're getting from Jalen Brunson. So that one is legitimately tough to me. But when I think about the ceiling of configuring a team around either one of them, I do think it's a little bit higher with Tatum, just marginally so because of course

Brunson's doing this under difficult circumstances, but he's never going to be like the most efficient offensive number one because of some of his size limitations. He's incredible. and then it is like the gap in two-way impact and Jason Taney being one of the best rebounders in these playoffs. And by the way, that's part of the reason that I go SGA over Brunson. It's not purely about the offensive impact. It's not to say that Brunson is bad defensively.

We all know he's a champion charge taker, but like SGA is making impactful plays as a helper. He's averaging like over three stocks a game. Like he's not all world there, but he's legitimately quite good. And I think that that's where the gap is as much as anything. This was fun. Yeah, one last thing I want to hit just on the Tatum thing. Like, I, let's not forget it that he does play one of the most important positions

athletically in the league, which is like that big forward. Like, this is the guy that's responsible for low man responsibilities a lot of the time. This is the guy that has to clean up the defensive glass a lot of the time. This is the guy that has to usually hang with a larger post player. Yeah, exactly. And so, like, I think that, like, we, again, I believe, I believe truly everything I said about as it pertains to Tatum. I think that Ant's ceiling as a pull-up jump shooter and his first step are just going to be what allows Ant to enter into conversations both currently and all time that Tatum is kind of incapable of entering into.

That said, like focusing on the scoring is just one small part of what Jason Tatum does. And as much as he's been frustrating and plateauing as a pull-up shooter and as an efficient score, especially in the post-setting, his overall impact has been ascending, in my opinion. And I thought the end of that game against Cleveland last night was one of his best moments as an NBA player in the sense that like he just looked like the old savvy. Like it reminded me of like LeBron where it's like he's not doing anything stupid other than just looking the direction of the defense is leaning and throwing basic swing and skip passes that set guys up for success. And so I just want to make sure that Tatum gets the the appropriate level of respect that he deserves that goes beyond just the scoring piece. All right, before we get out of here, guys, why don't you tell me a little bit about what you're working on over at the NerdSSSH channel? Everybody who's tuned in tonight, make sure you guys head over there and hit that subscribe button for them. They're doing a bunch of really cool stuff.

Carson's going to tell you about it right now. Yeah, so we are at NerdSesh. First of all, of course, appreciate you having us on, as always, Jason, a bunch of fun. Very glad that you added that segment also the top five players. That was fun, wasn't it? I thought that was great. So, yeah, follow us at NerdSash on YouTube. we are doing

almost nightly shows we're reacting to a bunch of these games we're actually going to take tomorrow night off but then we'll be back on Saturday. On top of that, you can watch all of our shows on our YouTube page. We also are doing some in-depth video

breakdown film-driven content. I just made a video about why Yokic is the best score on the planet right before they lost by 45. So go check that one out. Beautiful timing by Miomai. And yeah, you can follow us across social media

if you want, Instagram and TikTok at NerdSash, Twitter at Nerd underscore Sash. We do a bunch of trivia content there on top of posting some clips from the show to get more of our analysis. So that pretty much covers it. Thank you guys seriously for taking the time tonight. I know it's short notice, but when we get a team losing by 50 in the playoffs, it's no longer, no longer makes sense for me to get up here and talk X's and O's about what's going on. So I appreciate you guys taking the time out of your night to make this happen. All of you guys supporting the show, Obviously, it means the world to me that you guys keep rocking with us as we get through this

playoff run. Again, it would mean a lot to me as well. If you guys head over to NerdSach and subscribe and support those guys are doing great work over there. That's all we have for tonight. I may or may not do something with film in the morning. We'll see how I feel when I wake up. And then we're for sure going live after the final buzzer of Nick's Pacers game six. So I will see you guys then.

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