The Herd with Colin Cowherd - HOUR 1 - Celtics-Heat, Curry, Rivers

Episode Date: May 24, 2022

Colin's thoughts on Boston's dominating game 4 win over Miami The Warriors do a great job hiding Step Curry's flaws Doc Rivers is a better coach than people think Guest: Dan WoikeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

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Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fans, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tauntons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of the world. of two.

Listen to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down,

and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black. people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. Thanks for listening to The Heard podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday from 12 to 3 Eastern, 9 to noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and FS1. Find your local station for the herd at Fox Sports Radio.com or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Heard. You're listening to Fox Sports Radio. Here we go live in Los Angeles. Angeles, on a Tuesday, it's the herd, wherever you may be, however you may be.

Iheart Radio, Fox Sports Radio, and FS1 tonight the Mavericks season. Luca and the Mavericks, will they get swept? Boston, Miami, I think we have a winner before the series is over. Joy Taylor is joining me. Joy, how are you? That was a very humbling effort by the Miami Heat last night. They missed their first 14 shots, not great. Yeah, I'd like to put that first quarter behind me.

I think it was the worst first quarter in postseason history for the heats, if I'm correct on that one. It was a tragedy. But we're two and two, so series is not over. It's just one game, I suppose. Well, let me tell a story. Storytime with Uncle Colin. Years ago, I had to do an event in New York. And then the company that had me speak got a town.

car and I was in the car for an hour and a half driving home with an odd bird. He acknowledged during the drive. He didn't really like people. Different personality. But for the next hour and a half, I spent in the car with this guy, he was brilliant. He was really one of the smartest people's, smartest people I've ever listened to in my life. But he was different and quirky and a little dysfunctional. And what he did for a living was most.

mostly be alone or drive people around in utter silence. I just tend to be talkative and ask a lot of questions. And we tend to think, you know, the richest people are the smartest people. And that's just not the case. There's smart people everywhere, but they don't want to play the corporate game. Maybe they just don't align with certain personalities. There are brilliant people all over this world, and they just don't care about money. I could sit and read all day and be the happiest people in the world.

And in sports, we tend to think about something that's kind of analogous that like the most talented team always wins. It's like, no, that's not the case. The talented teams have dysfunction and ego. And they're often at big blue blood programs that have pressurized environments where players shrink. The Toronto Raptors won the title in 2019. They were lucky to get into the finals because they got a crazy bounce by Kauai Leonard. Remember that legendary picture? Or they don't even get to the finals.

and then they get to the finals and the Warriors fall apart. They were not the best team. The New England Patriots lost to the Giants. They'd beaten them a month earlier in New York. And David Tyree made a catch the only one of his career that mattered that stuck to his helmet like there was super glue. It's a lot of luck. It's okay.

You still get the title, but luck is involved, timing is involved, health is involved. And Boston is better than Miami. Miami may win the series. Boston's better than Miami. They have more elite players, more flexibility on defense, but this is a boom or bust sport now with all the three-point shots. And if you're hitting them, boom. If you're missing them, bust.

And you can have quarters like Miami hit. I mean, we've seen some quarters by these good teams that are just horrible. But the difference is both these teams, Miami and Boston, can be boom or bust because they shoot a lot of threes. The difference is, one, has really high-end multiple elite defenders, Robert Williams, Marcus Smart, Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown. This is the best defensive construct in the NBA, Boston. It's a really good defensive team, not just pretty good, really good. But now Marcus Smart is hurt, and Robert Williams has been hurt, and everybody's nicked up.

Miami is a testament to culture and coaching, and Pat Riley and Eric Spolstra and Jimmy Butler's passion. But their boom isn't as high, and their bust is lower. And that's just what they are. And they may win this series because now we're tied at two, and they get to go home. but don't kid yourself. Belichick and Greg Popovich are cautionary tales of how much brilliant culture there's a ceiling to it. And I just think Miami's ceiling. We saw it. There's an argument to be made. It was in the bubble two years ago, right? When it was a younger team, not as banged up,

and now PJ Tucker's older and the Butler's got knee inflammation. And Kyle Lowry is older. They are like the warriors without the talent. They're really close to just fall in apart physically. They can be really interesting when they're healthy and really bad when they're not. But, you know, we, the best team does not win every series. Boston's the better team. Everybody I trust, everybody who knows basketball that I use as a source, we're all, everybody's saying the same thing. Like, Boston's got more good players. But Boston, because this is the league, boom or bust, take a three, nothing else, they have horrible quarters. But in the 16 quarters in the series, Boston's one or tied third.

of them. But they've also arguably had two of the three worst quarters that just took them out of a game. So, you know, I look at the teams that are remaining, and I think Miami has very little margin for error. But if they don't have another horrific quarter, who knows? Boston, to me, if they're healthy, they win it. And if they just play with intensity, inexplicably, they're not talented enough to have mail-in quarters. And in a couple of quarters, Boston just hasn't shown up. they haven't played hard. They're not that talented. Golden State does know us have to play hard to win.

Boston has to play hard to win. And Jason Tatum talked about the secret sauce last night in the W. I think I do a really good job of, you know, after I sleep it off, regardless if I have 10 points or 46 points, the next day is the next day and whatever happened, happened. You know, I didn't doubt myself. You know, I know I play basketball. And obviously, we knew that how important this game was.

And everybody just had to come out with a different sense of urgency. I want to talk about the Warriors tonight. They can beat Dallas and sweep them in the series. It feels like Dallas is too good to be swept. But be that as it may. You ever go to see a magician? Card tricks. What they're really trying to do is show you something over here,

get your attention while they're doing stuff with the left hand or vice versa. And, you know, there's no such thing as magic. I'm pretty sure, although I did see a Swedish magician that did something amazing with a chair and duct tape. Anyway, Golden State really came to terms very early with what Steph Curry was. And I think this is a big secret to their success. They knew he was a brilliant mind and a brilliant shooter and a brilliant ball handler. He was going to be the soul of the team. But he wasn't very good defensively. And he's small, and he's been hurt. But instead of trying to elevate him and ask for more, Golden State said,

we're just going to surround him, draft and develop defensive players. Clay Thompson, Draymond Green, they went and got Andre Iguidala. Now they have Kvon Looney. They acquire Andrew Wiggins. In all the moves they make, even KD has always been a willing defender. In all the moves they make, they don't bring a poor defender to the room. they have Gary Pate in a second who can defend multiple guard positions. What they've come to terms with is, listen, we have this brilliant guy, and instead of squeezing

more out of him, we're going to get the brilliance of his offense and his brain and his ball handling and hide his flaw. Do you realize since Steve Kerr entered the Warriors, the Splash Brothers, and Kevin Durant and Clay Thompson, they have held opponents to the lowest field goal percentage in the league? and that's with a liability with Steph Curry. A liability. They're number one in the league and number two defending the three. Because they came to terms very early with what Steph was.

Brilliant A++ in multiple things. Not a good defender. And that's what's interesting about Dallas. Everybody's figuring out, you know, what are we going to do with Dallas and what are we going to put with Luca? He'll never be a great defensive player. I don't think he has the body for it. I don't think he has the interest in it. And he is so ball-centric with his ball usage.

You see this with Westbrook and Harden, he just didn't have a lot of gas at the end of a series to play both ends. He doesn't. He is so good offensively. He puts all his energy into offense. So as we sit here and look at Dallas and go, let's pair him with this score and that score. I would re-sign Jalen Brunson,

but he's 6'1 and small, so he's not a great defender, and Luke is not a great defender. I think there's an argument to be made for Dallas, going forward, they should steal a page from the Warriors. Acknowledge what their star is, but also what he isn't. He'll never be a great defensive player. Start to draft and develop defensive players. Don't get the most offensively gifted player.

You don't even know if he can play well with Luca because great offensive players like KD couldn't play with Westbrook. Great offensive players couldn't play with Hardin. I think Dallas and Luca will struggle if you pair them. with another elite score. But when Clay Thompson came out of Washington State, you know, the thing with Clay was, big, strong body that could defend and hit a three. But the key with him, he's a catch and shoot guy, he could defend.

He could hide Steph's flaws. I don't know exactly what Dallas is going to do. But sometimes you have to admit, here's what our star does. And here's what our star does not do. You know, Kareem both ends. Michael, both ends. Kobe and his prime bow. both ends. LeBron, absolutely both ends. Durant really does give you an effort defensively.

Steph, size, willingness, ability, strength, and in its game. And I don't think Luke is either. So everybody's caught up in what are we going to pair? What's the answer? In this entire warrior dynasty, because of the Splash brothers and the ease in which they score and their engineering of the three-point shot, the analytic first team. We haven't really paid attention to the truth. They've always been a great defensive team, and Steve Kerr, though he was known as a shooter, has become a remarkably deft a defensive coach. Not just good defenders, Draymond and Clay and Wiggins and Peyton and Looney.

They don't ever bring anybody over, not somebody they really need who's a lousy defender. because they get, then they'd have two on the floor. And as much as we fall in love with the three, Boston, I think is the best team in the East. They're better on defense than offense. And the warriors are probably, maybe probably going to sweep the Mavs, and it's not just hitting jumpers. It's that they've completely discombobulated Luca and the Maverick's offense.

All right, good stuff today. By the way, Rick Buecker yesterday on Luca taking the next step defensively. We've set the bar so high. I mean, it's been the last three years that he's been the preseason favorite to win MVP. He has to get into better condition. He has to utilize the pieces around him better. He has to become a better defensive player. He doesn't have to be a great defensive player. He just has to have the kind of conditioning and desire to be able to give you a consistent effort at that end of the floor. But I think a lot of people think like Rick, Lucas is not going to be a great defensive player. You can spot that early.

Jordan took so much pride in it. LeBron took pride in it. Janice took pride in it. Drew Holliday took pride in it. Tatum takes pride in it. Jimmy Butler takes incredible pride in it. Some guys, look, I'm going to do my work on the offensive end. I am so gifted, I can give you 40 a night that psychologically, whatever it is, they're just not engineered to be great defensive players.

I think Steph's got a little bit of that. I think he could be better. I think there's limitations, and I think that's what you have with Luca. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the IHeart Radio app. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined, And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told,

and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know.

I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and, conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person

because you're afraid. Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keer Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose

on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free, our heart radio app, search learn the hard way and listen now. A lot of different stories this morning on who the Lakers want to hire as their head coach. Doc Rivers, according to Mark Stein, is one of the names out there.

You know, Doc, I know Doc pretty well and I like Doc a lot. Doc has been so public for so long, it's easy to take shots at him. And I've always kind of laughed and rolled my eyes at the Doc narrative. Doc has a 59% career winning percentage. That's the same as Eric Spolstra. And Quinn Snyder, who everybody wanted to be the next Laker coach. And by the way, in the last decade, Doc's winning percentage in the West overwhelmingly is 62%.

Eric Spolstra in the East, the weaker East, has been 59% and had LeBron for four years in his prime and De Wade for almost all the years in his prime. Doc can coach. He's great with veteran teams. He's got a title. He gets L.A. Media, day one, he's got respect. He was a very good player. He's a very good coach.

They just had a list of the best coaches of all time voted on by executives and coaches. And Doc made the top 15. But again, people always confused that Clipper team is a great team. No, it was fun to watch. But Chris Paul couldn't hit a three. Blake couldn't shoot and DeAndre Jordan couldn't. They didn't have enough shooters as the league was increasingly becoming a shooter's league. Golden State suddenly had them all.

And so in the end, he's never had a LeBron and he didn't have the shooters. But the Clippers were really fun to watch. But the Clippers, even now when they have a great front office, are still struggling to figure out how to win playoff series. Doc has their highest winning percentage of all time. But a lot of these names out there, I look at him and I just say, I got nothing against Darvinham or Terry Stott's and Kenny Atkinson. By all accounts, Kenny did a great job in Brooklyn before, you know,

he got run out by whoever ran him out. But do they get the respect? What happens at the Lakers? LeBron, Anthony Davis gets injured and suddenly they're 8 and 13 as we, you know, turn the corner in January, and all of a sudden you've got people doubting it. This is a very hard roster to navigate. Russell Wexbrook is probably going to be around with all that money. He's going to be around until the trading deadline.

And Anthony Davis, his guy that doesn't like to work out terribly hard, though he's gifted. And LeBron, we know the offense is LeBron. He is the de facto point guard. And though he claims clutch sport and LeBron claim he doesn't have personnel power, he got personnel power. So, you know, it's just one of these things that we confused. I mean, look at last year with the Sixers, or this year with the Sixers, I should say. Embed gets hurt.

His face gets blown up. Hardin just dissolves and Thibel wouldn't get vac, so he wasn't available in Toronto. That's not a championship team. That's just not a championship team. So you can criticize Steve Nash for they keep getting bounced. And he's got Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving. But, I mean, you start looking at. Doc's career, you win 62% of your games in the last decade, and you didn't have LeBron

on any of your teams. That's hard to do. Eric Spolster's a great coach against the weaker East with Pat Riley assembling his roster with LeBron, Andy Wade, 59%. All right? So I don't want to hear that Doc. Doc is public, and he's been public forever because I remember, you know, I don't remember exactly how old I was, but I watched Doc River.

play and then he was on television. And it's like Steve Kerr. Steve Kerr's been on my television for basketball for 20 years. He just happens to be winning a lot of championships. Also remember this, Doc has a title. None of these other candidates have a title. Doc has not only a title, but he is a meta-world peace jumper from two. So, you know, sometimes people that have just been out there for so long,

they're either going to step in it or they're going to get over-criticized. My only knock on Doc is when he gets defensive and tries to defend himself. I wish he would stop defending himself. He did this about two, three weeks ago. It's easy to use me as an example, but I wish I would tell the whole story with me, all right? My Orlando team is the 8th seat. No one gives me credit for getting up against the pistons who won the title. That was an 8th seat.

I want you to go back and look at that roster. I dare you go back and look at that roster and you would say, not a hell of a coaching job. Really? I mean, the Clipper team that we lost, we won. Chris Paul didn't play in the first two games and was playing on one leg. And we didn't have home court. And then the last one, to me, is the one we blew. That's the one I said, we blew that.

And that was in the bubble. And anything could happen in the bubble. There's no home court. Game seven would have been in L.A. Now, I buy his arguments. A lot of people won't, but I think it kind of weakens him that he's up there defending it. I wish he would just rest on it. He just got voted one of the 15 best coaches ever.

Every coach in this league gets fired. It's just the way it is. It's not the NFL. Well, I mean, I should say that. Andy Reid got fired. Ed Belichick got fired. But, I mean, this is the, with all the money now in pro sports, we're not talking millions anymore.

The owners are billionaires. The TV deals are billions per network. you got to win really fast. This idea, Doc can't coach. Doc, to me, is the best fit with the Lakers. Doesn't mean Philadelphia wants to let him go, but man, he's won a title, he played in the game, he has the ability to kind of navigate the stars.

And this Laker team is an old roster, it's an odd roster. There's some egos here. And I think he and LeBron would work together. Both regards, both play the game, both have been around. around. I don't think you want to experiment with a coach. I mean, Frank Vogel feels a little like Terry Stott. In the end, there was no power. Doc would come in and have some power. Jeannie Bus knows Doc. The bus family knows Doc. They respect Doc. They like Doc. They're not going to rush him out of town if things don't go well in the first 45 games. This is a franchise

that is now in their sixth coach potentially in 11 years. Like, they're moving through coaches. You wouldn't do that to Doc. You'd give Doc the extra a year or two. I think he's the best guy out there for this job. Joy with the news. Turn on the news. This is the herd line news. Well, we know that it was a big point of friction between Russell Wilson

and the Seahawks. The team was built on defense. Yes. There's a little bit of a campaign to let Russ cook and obviously he wanted some say and a little more input on what was going on with the team. And now Russ is with the Broncos. And he seems like he will finally get

his wish by being the center of a Here is Broncos head coach Nathaniel Hackett on fitting the offense around their new quarterback. We want to build this thing completely around him, make sure he's comfortable and watch him come alive. I think he did some awesome things today, utilizing his athleticism, at the same time being able to just be a pure dropback passers. So I think there were a lot of good things, and we just got to keep on developing that and just the integration of the system and his feels with the rest of the team, you know, how he is with the other guys, wide receivers, tight ends, and just get those two guys all on the same page. I think at this point in the evolution of football, if you're still arguing to build around anything other than your star quarterback, you have just been caught in a time vortex and you're just lost. Like, it just doesn't make any sense to me.

You can look at the team that won the Super Bowl the last two years, which is the Rams and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Was the Rams defense a massive part of why they won that Super Bowl? Absolutely. They ate up that Bengals offensive line. made things extremely uncomfortable for Joe Burrow, and Aaron Donald and Von Miller made huge plays that essentially won the game. So I'm not saying that you should ignore the defense, but that same team wasn't in the Super Bowl the year before.

And the reason was they're a quarterback. Matthew Stafford is the reason why they were in that Super Bowl and won that Super Bowl. They went out and got OBJ, which is a great example of, we know the centerpiece of this offense, we know the centerpiece of this team. We're going to give him as many things as possible. but they went out and just got Alan Robinson with the Rams. Right. They're, you know, to your point is, the other thing is, Joy,

you know Russ is so committed. You know, like sometimes with Aaron Rogers, you know, it's like a battle with his front office. And you think to yourself, we're going to build the defense up because if he bails on us, at least we'll be in games. Right. You know with Russell Wilson and Brady and Mahomes and Allen, they are so committed, borderline obsessed with this thing,

that not only you're going to pay him the money, but they're not going anywhere. Like if you can furnish them with a kind of assets, like Matt Stafford, he's all in on this stuff. He doesn't do Hollywood. He lives here and hides. He's a football guy and a family guy. So I think Russell's one of those guys,

not only easy to pay for me, like Stafford, but easy to build around. I know he's, we're all in together in this thing. I don't always feel like that with all quarterback, specifically Aaron Rogers. Are we in it together, or is it your mission? And I'm just holding on trying to maintain a relationship. Right.

But yes, and to that point, if you have the guy in the building who you can build around, do that. But you should take advantage of, you were just talking about Luca, obviously a different sport. But you know you have the star, build around what they do best and lean into them. Russell Wilson's already proven he is a winner at the highest level. He has a Super Bowl. And he can elevate a team. So you've got all those things in place. To go, to be like, all right, we'll just let Russell do whatever he does,

and then we'll just focus on building up a great defense. It's like you've got to have a balanced team there. And I think that's where the Cops got lost. And they didn't, their defense is also not great. So you did a bad job at Leanington that side of the ball. So the Cardinals opened the OTA phase of their offseason workouts on Monday. Kyler Murray and Marquis Brown were among the players not working with their teammates. And although this part of the offseason is voluntary.

Yes, it is. Cliff Kingsbury thinks the NFL rules play a big part in attendance. He said as a coach, You want to have these guys here all the time, but it's not how the rules are set up. Different guys handle it different ways. I would love to have my quarterback there, but some aren't going to show up.

This is the way it is. Look, we talked about this, I think it was last week. If you want someone to be there, you make it mandatory. There are some things that you do for work that you know aren't mandatory, but it's understood and implied, you better be there. Especially if there are new pieces

and there is an added amount of pressure and you're the guy and you're wanting to get paid by the way. So I, listen, if you don't want to show up because you don't have to, that's on you. But again, even this, which you were talking about with Aaron Rogers,

I am permitted to not take you seriously as an organization or as a winner. You can control your career however you want to. You can ask for all the money you want to. And we can decide that this is, you know, you're not really building towards a winning organization. Now, that's not saying that that is, an absolutes, there are certain situations where you've worked together a long time, you have

that chemistry, you have that continuity, there aren't new pieces coming in, you aren't adjusting to a new coach or a new system, and in that case, you don't really need to be there for off-season voluntary workouts. That's not the case with every situation. I wouldn't say that with Green Bay. There are some other players, obviously Tom Brady is skipping OTAs. I feel like he's somebody who's probably earned the right to not have to do OTAs if he doesn't want to. Yeah. And also, he's got, it should be noted. Now, this would be his third year working with the same group of receivers. That's what I'm saying.

There's some continuity there. He's thrown the ball a few times to a few different receivers around the league. I think he'll be okay. So one of the biggest obstacles the Browns have faced in moving Baker-Mayfield is his $18.8 million salary. According to Albert Breer, Cleveland has now offered to eat a good chunk of Baker's salary in order to facilitate a trade. Baker is still on the roster, which means the Browns may need to take on more, if not all, of his salary. salary to move him essentially buying a draft pick. And this is why the Browns are the Browns.

Not bad enough that you have $230 million that you're on the hook for with DeShom Watson, who you have no idea when he's going to play. There was a report yesterday that there might be a decision before the season starts. I imagine that the league is going to want to have some sort of decision before the season starts. And you already guaranteed Baker this $18.8 million, which now you probably have to pay for in order to get him off of your roster, because I don't think you want Baker in the building come fall, regardless of Deshawn Watson situation. Now, what I'm about to say is probably wrong.

And it's easy for somebody like me to say this when I'm here and you're a general manager. But I've always thought teams get too paralyzed by what they get back. Because Baker's a first round pick. I look at Baker and say, got us to the playoffs. We never had to sign him to a massive contract. I would just get him out of the building. if you could give me a fifth round pick. Now, GMs don't want to do that

because other GMs look at them and go, he got hoes. My takeaway with Baker, the best Baker in Cleveland is the one that's not there. So I would just move him, and I wouldn't even mind moving him in division. I would move him, let Baker go,

you don't want Baker in this Deshawn mess in the building. No, that's why they're talking about they might have to eat all of the money. I would eat it, let him go, move on. But I think sometimes, and Andrew Barry's, smart guy, and maybe specifically in this instance, it's not right. But I do feel sometimes in sports, they always say it's much easier when you bring in a new

GM to like get rid of the draft picks of the previous GM. Like GMs hold on to their draft picks saying, ah, that guy is getting like Daniel Jones in New York. It's over. It doesn't work. But the Maras, they like the pick. And so they're going to give him another year. I feel like Baker, just let him go.

Get an end table for him, a globe, an encyclopedia. Who cares? Just move him out. Let him go flourish and make money with his beautiful wife and have a life. Just move out of the Baker's business. There's a lot that the Browns did wrong with the Baker-Mayfield situation, which we have talked about extensively. A lot. And there's a lot that Baker Mayfield did wrong.

But I'm with you. Now, listen, we obviously know there are egos involved, which creates this intangible level of nonsense that you have to burrow through when you're trying to make these deals. You don't want to get nothing back for the number one overall pick. But maybe he wasn't the number one overall pick. We're all pick. Okay.

People make mistakes. They do it every single year in the draft. There are a bus every single year. Don't get paralyzed by this mistake. And to your point, it's not like he was a complete disaster. You want a playoff game. Cut your losses and move on. You need to romanticize the situation.

You want a playoff game with it. Over Pittsburgh. Over Pittsburgh. Pretty good. Which is, you know, the highlight of your... If I had told you when you drafted Baker, you will eventually win a playoff game and beat the Steelers. You just signed up for it.

And by the way, you'll never have to pay him big money. You're to sign up for it. Considering Cleveland's track record with quarterbacks, that is, that's the closest to Cleveland's going to come to a Super Bowl. I'm throwing all the shade right now. Sounds petty. Joy with the news. Well, that's the news. And thanks for stopping by.

The Hurd-Ly News. He works for the L.A. Times. He's the Lakers beat rider, previously covered the Clippers, has covered the NBA for nearly a decade. Dan Wojke is now joining us, and he's joining us in studio, which we don't get that much anymore. So it's an in-house guest is just such a treat for us. Wow. I want to start with the Doc thing because Doc ends up being a speedback for a lot of people, right? For sure.

But, you know, I never thought the Clipper team was a championship team. I thought they were wildly Lob City. They had like two years that I thought were legitimately they were there. And they didn't get there. The Sterling year. And then the three-run Rockets year. Those were like their two real. won those years?

The Sterling year would have been... Maybe I'm too early on the Warriors, but it... It's pre-Warriars because they beat the Warriors in the Sterling year. And then the second year, I think the Warriors did win, but they were on sort of the collision course with the Warriors. Yeah, and the Warriors, unlike the Clippers' front office, the Warriors had moved analytically into the three ball, and they were a little bit ahead of them, I would say.

Like the Dodgers are with some of these baseball... Yeah, Golden State was innovating. the Clippers were really good at the Salabasball that was sort of working then. Okay. And so my take was I never thought they were the best team in the league. I did think there was a time they were the most entertaining team. But I think, you know, Doc's winning percentage in the last decade in mostly the West is 62%. Spolster with LeBron and Wade in their prime in the east is 59%.

Don't tell me Doc can't coach. Like if you look at this Laker roster, there's some big personalities and some big paychecks and not necessarily the strongest front office. I'm sorry, but I like Doc's eyes and ears in that organization. So I think it's a twofold thing. And like you, I like Doc a lot. And I've seen Doc operate. I've seen him win games.

You covered it. Yeah, I mean, I've seen a lot of Doc Rivers coached basketball teams in my life. I think the arguments for Doc are a lot of what you laid out. Like, he's incredibly experienced virtually for the last decade plus in basketball. He's done nothing but coach stars, right? Like, he's only really been in that situation. and so like this is a really interesting sort of recipe of stars and like having somebody with that type of experience it's sort of like a warm blanket right like you can feel fairly comfortable

that doc knows what he's getting into and has ideas for how to manage this stuff especially if russal westbrook is back to um i think the other argument for doc is that he wins a lot he does win yeah right um the issue with doc i think and he's sort of a prisoner of his own success in this way is when you're talking about him versus like spolster well like spolster has multiple trips to the finals and he has rings and doc has one ring and i think a lot of people look at at the teams that maybe could have gotten there and look we could argue about whether this this philly team was good enough or if last year's philly team was good enough or or which clippers teams had like real shots like i think doc and kind of the mistake doc has made and i think he would admit to this is like

he's defended himself that's what we just said and like you should never defend yourself i mean seriously you should just be like my record is my record like i'll see it in springfield one day when i'm in the Hall of Fame. Like, we can talk about it there. That's right. But like, you know, I mean, he's passionately defending himself. And when you do that, you open yourself up to rebuttals. And the rebuttals are, 3-1 leads, you know, because you've exclusively

coached stars, your expectations aren't to win 60% of your games. Your expectations are to win titles. And so when you don't, right or wrong, like, that is the baseline to which your teams are judged. It's funny, like John Calipari. If Calipari won a second title at Kentucky, there's nothing

you can say. But he's got one, and he knows it, especially in the southern footprint where Savans winning these things every other year. If Meta World Peace doesn't hit a jumper, Doc's got two. And none of this stuff would matter. And that's the difference so often, Dan, in sports. Totally. It is a bucket.

And it's like, I mean, if Kauai and Leonard if that ball rams out. Forget, Raptors don't win a title. They don't get to the finals. And who knows what Nick Nurse's reputation is in that situation then, too, right? So I think you're on it. I mean, Doc in that sense, I think, like,

with the Lakers is an interesting fit. I also, though, think, though, and this will be the problem, and this is the issue when you talk about the Lakers is the longer you talk about something, for me, in my mind, I start to hear the counter arguments because there are no easy answers, right? It is like, you start to go down this road and you're like, oh, man, maybe I should have turned the other way. This is also, though, very traditional Lakers thinking, right, in the sense that Doc Rivers by far is the biggest name available. Well, maybe if he's even that available. I mean, he has a job right now, too, right?

It's a bunch of first timers and guys that didn't work. Sure, right? It's not the most exciting pool of candidates in that sense. They're very well maybe a great coach out there, and I think the challenge in hiring coaches, if you talk to General Manager's about this, like I have been over the past month or so, is that some will tell you it's the hardest thing they do

is to hire a coach, because there's maybe a handful that really move the needle, there's maybe a couple that really actively hurt you, and then everybody else is kind of in the middle. Right. And sort of it's, then it becomes about personality fit and management. It's not so much about X's and O's. It's not so much about that stuff.

It's about how do you work within a culture? And a lot of that is guessing. And you don't know. What might seem like a great hire on the introduction day could be a disaster really quickly. Yeah, sometimes you win the press conference, and that's the best day. Frank Vogel was the third choice for the Lakers. I mean, really, like, that is a team that wanted to hire Monty Williams. That is a team that wanted to hire Tyron Liu.

they ended up with Frank Vogel and they won an NBA title. You know, now, ultimately, how successful was it? They're in the same position again three years later. But I mean, it is like one of those things. Like, you know, I remember when they hired Frank Vogel, it wasn't like this huge outcry around Los Angeles said, oh, we found our new tactician, we've got our guy. It was, we got a third choice.

Pete Carroll, not the first choice for USC. Oh, I remember I was on a plane, on a tarmac flying with a friend to Cabo. And we were like, what a terrible hire. Retread. Retrend. Retrend. Yeah. You just never know. It's so hard.

All right, Dan, stick around. Dan Wojke, L.A. Times, more. It's the herd. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd. Weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific. Hey, it's Ben. Host of the fifth hour with Ben Mallor, along with my trusty sidekick, David Gascon,

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Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all. Embedded in the games and with the Apple, fleets for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care which I'll say. Yep, that's me. Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became. bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross

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Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and comments. conversations with so many incredible guests.

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left, Dan Wojki, L.A. Times, I got to get to it. Celtics lose in this series. Chris Middleton wasn't there. Brooklyn was a mess, and Bede got hurt. I'm sorry, Dan. Boston loses. I got two starters for Miami couldn't score last night. If Boston loses, I move Jalen Brown.

Wow. I think it's drastic. And the reason why I say that is watching the playoffs this year, watching the Lakers struggles very routinely this season, two-way players are the key in this NBA, right? You need guys that can play, who can guard multiple positions on the wing, who can create and who can hit shots.

Jalen Brown is young and he fits into that category. Now, eventually things get dicing when you start paying three, four guys, max top, top tier, you've got to be sure that they're the right guys. But like if you look around the league and you look at, like, look at Dallas. Like Dallas would kill for a dude like Jalen Brown on that team, right? Like that's something like they've got guys that do versions of it. And they do it pretty effectively, but not with his sort of offensive skill, right? Dorian Finney Smith, super underrated player.

Reggie Bullock, underrated player, guys that shoot, guys that guard. but not really guys you can put it on the ground and go. And to me, that's the thing with Jalen Brown. Like, I can tell you how much Boston values Jalen Brown, right? Is that that was back when Anthony Davis was in New Orleans, and like that trade was kind of when he requested the trade and, like, Clutch was trying to funnel him a little bit to the Lakers. Boston didn't want to trade Jalen Brown in that deal.

Like, I mean, that has already been, like, established as a groundwork. Like, that's, they think Jalen Brown, and that was three years ago, Anthony Davis. Lakers, I give the Celtics Anthony Davis, I get Jalen Brown and Williams. I just, I don't know that Boston does it. All right. Lakers would do it. You know, and to be honest, Colin,

I don't know that the Lakers would do it. And the weird thing is because the pathway for the Lakers, we're talking about this a little bit in the break, the pathway for the Lakers is like, Anthony Davis has to get back into that MVP conversation, right? That was sort of the idea is that when they traded for him was that there would be like a little bit of a torch passing from LeBron D.

We saw hints of it in the bubble. where AD was spectacular. Best basketball he's maybe ever played in the NBA happened in Orlando. But he hasn't been in that MVP conversation. He's made me look silly. I've been on TV, I've been on radio, and I've predicted him as like an MVP-type candidate. He hasn't sniffed it.

And I think that is for the Lakers. Like, that's their pathway. I don't think Jalen Brown's that kind of a player. Honestly, I think he's a terrific, a terrific complimentary player. I don't know that he's the type of guy who works his way into that MVP, all NBA conversation. For the Lakers to succeed, they need AD. He's the higher ceiling.

Oh, by far, but he's never available. I love Joy. If she was here only on Monday, Tuesday, Joy, we have to trade, joy. Availability, right? It's the best ability. All right. Finally, three minutes left. Dan Wojke-L.A. Times. I could spend an hour with this guy.

We probably should have booked him for four segments. Oh, gosh. But I want to throw this at you. Everybody wants to pair Luca with somebody. They're going to lose this series. My takeaway is Golden State acknowledged very early. step's never going to be an elite defender draymond clay looney iggy they've never brought a guy in who was not a willing defender so i get the brilliance of step and i can hide his problem lucca's not built to be a great defender i don't think he wants to be it he's hard in ball usage sure how about just go defense around lucca sign jalen brunson with lucca and just go defense well i think the the reason why you wouldn't want to do that is because of the star power that's coming in the west right like that team and that plan might be good enough to get you to the conference finals this season.

But next season, you look at a Clipper team that, in theory, should have a healthy Kawhi Leonard and a healthy Paul George. You look at a Denver team that should, in theory, at least, have a healthy Jamal Murray, healthy Michael Porter. Who knows what the Lakers are going to do? Like, the level is going up in the West. It's going up in the East, too. And who knows what injuries will come up next year that changed this.

But I do think, you know, you mentioned that with Steph. And yeah, they won that way without. a star they won with one with Kevin Durant, you know, who also guards. He's a willing to figure. You know, and I think talking to people in Dallas, I remember I sent some tax after Game 7, some people I know there. And one of the things they were most impressed about in that Game 7 blowout, Luca on defense in that game, right?

That Luca bought in defensively, bought into what they were doing, the traps with Devin Booker and stuff like that. And he was moving around the court in a way that, you know, maybe there, there is, I think, more there defensively. And that comes up being a better shape, obviously. I don't know that that guy will play 82 games of defense. He shouldn't have to, right? He does too much on offense.

But to your point, I mean, look, look for stars. You should look for two-way talent if you can find it. But you can, I think, build around a player like Luca Donchich with the right fit. They've shown that this year. The star power would have said, keep Porzingis, right? Like biggest name, second biggest name on the roster and stuff like that. Instead, you know, you move him, you bring in Spencer Dinwiddie, a third guard, and all of a sudden the floor opens a little bit more.

you get a little more active on defense, and here they are, you know, playing really meaningful basketball and the NBA for the first time in Lucas' career, like this deep. 50 seconds, Westbrook for Buddy Heald and Malcolm Brogden. Is it just a bunch of nonsense on the internet? I think the issue with that deal is what kind of draft capital would the Lakers have to include. Are we talking the 2027 first round pick? Are we talking the 29 first round pick? Why not?

Well, because if you could count on Malcolm Brogden to play 80 games, he wouldn't be available. in the trade. Right. And so the question becomes for the Lakers is do you make one of these moves where you expend draft capital or do you just kind of sit with this Westbrook deal for one more year and you do what you've always known with the Lakers, which is you have cap room and you

chase stars, right? Like that has been the formula for them. It works sometimes. It doesn't work always. But they're in the best position in the league with cap space. They've got the most offer in terms of legacy and things like that. That to me is what they're wrestling with is do we expend that capital or we just ride

this out. Dan Wokey, L.A. Times. Great first hour. Hour two next. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human

potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds, I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th

with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of taun tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two.

Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. For 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year.

I don't think there's a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.