The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hour 2 - Thunder vs Pacers tonight

Episode Date: June 13, 2025

Colin talks to former head coach Chris Peterson about Caleb Williams and why he’s struggled to adjust to the NFL after a prolific college career Ric Bucher also stops by to talk about The NBA Finals and why the Pacers are giving the Thunder so much troubleSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox Sports Radio in noon to 3 Eastern, 9 a.m. to noon Pacific. Find your local station for the herd at Fox SportsRedia.com or stream us live every day on the IHeart Radio app by searching Fox Sports Radio or FSR. You're listening to Fox Sports Radio. Here we go. It is a Friday getting fired out. One of my favorites, Chris Peterson's a couple of minutes away. One of the smartest guys in football.

Great article in The Athletic about Sean McVeigh and Chris Peterson this week. My favorite article ever in the athletic. And a coach will be here in a couple of minutes. So, J-Mack, as we go to the second hour on a Friday, one of the things I don't like to do, but I do have strong opinions on quarterbacks. I like to go into a draft and tell people's. I want to take a side on these quarterbacks. And there have been a handful I've really not thought we're going to work.

I said the Tebow things, it's mythology, it's not going to work, Mansell's not going to work, Zach Wilson's not going to work, Daniel Jones, Willevis, Jamarcus Russell. When I've really come out and said, it's not going to work, I think I've been right. Now, there have been guys that I've been higher on. Obviously, I love Trevor Lawrence, Andrew Luck. Trevor has not delivered yet. I was high on Sam Darnold. I think last year validated some of my opinions.

It's pretty special. But I will say, Shadoor Sanders, Shadur Sanders, is different. I don't love him like I like Andrew Locke or Sam Darnal. I don't think he's that kind of athlete. But when you see the numbers, and I watch them in college,

when you see the numbers that he's completed 77% of his throws in OTAs in mini-camp, and he set the all-time accuracy record in college behind a bad old line and no-run game, it is kind of startling. It's like, wow. So do I think he's a franchise quarterback? I do. But, you know, Brian Dable had issues reportedly from reporters I trust.

And Mary Kay Cabot says the Cleveland staff is kind of, it's slow growth. They're not giving him the whole playbook here. Yet they are Dylan Gabriel. I don't know that to be true, but I trust Mary Kay Cabot. Here is Stefanski again talking about Shador Sanders. He's a very, very hard worker. He has fun when he's in the building. I'm enjoying watching him progress with every single meeting, with every single rep.

He's doing a great job. And I think as a young player, I don't care what position you're playing, you're going to run a play or you're going to get something wrong. That's so valuable because then you get to correct it, get it right the next time. And he's doing a really, really nice job. I think he's showing up early. He's staying late. And he continues to get better every single day. And that's the fun part.

Okay. So now, now the other thing that we know to be true for all. rookie quarterbacks is who's your first NFL coach you can do a lot worse than Kevin Stefansky now that helps Dylan Gabriel as well but I do think that's a benefit for shodura Sanders Eric Mangini used to coach the Browns came on yesterday he said cowherd pump the brakes there is a desperation coming off with Deshawn Watson for for some quarterback to emerge for some hope to be there for the franchise And they thought Chodor could potentially be a high-pick form.

And then they get him in the fifth round. So it's just, it exploded in Cleveland the second that he got here. And what Kevin Stefansky is trying to do is he's trying to tamper it down. He's trying to push it down. And you see, all of his reps have been with the back-end guys. He hasn't gotten any reps with the ones. To me, that's a good decision because as soon as he gets in with the ones, then the hype train is going to roll even first.

further. And there's no question. I mean, Cleveland, because they have struggled historically, they're just dying for a star quarterback. They want their Joe Burrow. You know, they passed on Mahomes. They want their Joe Burrell. They want their Lamar. They want their Mahomes. So they go crazy when they get Baker, Johnny Mansellor, Deshaun Watson. And you can feel the hysteria building for Sador Sanders, but I kind of get it because they've missed so many times. Baker worked for a short term. With that, Chris Peterson is joining us live. Fox Sports College Football Analyst. You know, it's funny about this stuff.

I was talking about Caleb earlier, and I was a big fan of Caleb, and I went to dinner last night with the Bears President, and I said, he was magical for the first year at USC, and the first six games of the second. And I said, then that Notre Dame game happened. He got sacked six times, and I think Lincoln, Riley, and Caleb lost trust in the O line, and he got into really bad habits, and I thought last year in Chicago,

the coaching staff didn't correct those habits. From what you've seen of Caleb, the stuff we like about him, Chris, is pretty obvious. Are there things you've looked at and that if you coached him, you would be like, hey, I got to clean this up with Caleb Williams. I haven't studied, Colin, as much as you have, but I'll say this.

You know, one of the harder guys for me to ever coach in my career has been scrambling quarterbacks that are really athletic and their legs are as much of a weapon as their arm is because there's such a fine line between when you should take off and when you should hang in and it's one of those things like, no, no, no, no, yes, yes, yes. And so, and then you lose trust in your O line,

well, you know what's going to happen. So, you know, this guy is a phenomenal talent, but I think at the NFL level, one of those superpowers that these guys have to have is their pocket presence. There needs to be an instinct in there. They need to be trained in there. And really to be one of the elite guys, they have to be elite in the pocket. I mean, if you just go back to the Tom Brady, who, you know, know, can't run at all, couldn't run it all.

I mean, that guy was so phenomenal in the pocket. I mean, that was his superpower, in my opinion. So Shadour's not a runner. You've seen plenty of him. Right. He's more like Kirk. To me, his comp could be Kirk Cousins. It may be a little more movement.

Is there something, give me what you liked about him, and something you saw as an analyst and thought that that's a little, that's concerning? Yeah. Well, I did like him a lot. I saw flashes where you saw the arm talent, the anticipation, I mean, the accuracy. So all those things you did see. I mean, at Colorado, there was a cut.

I put together a highlight one time in Washington. I was like, oh, man, this guy's got something. But then going back to our conversation we just had, the weakness that I thought he had was pocket presence. Like, Shador, to me, is athletic, but he's not very fast, certainly by NFL. standards. So he is going to have to like minimize what we're seeing on tape right here and learn to get really good in that pocket. And if he does and gets comfortable there, which is a big F, I think he can be really good. So this next question, I got a lot of pushback apparently on this.

Thank God I don't read my phone or email, but I got a lot of pushback. I said, listen, college football has pivoted to the playoff. And the responsibility of Ryan Day is to get to that playoff. And it's like college basketball. Tom is old job at Michigan State. Get to March. I don't care. You can lose to your

rival. You'll keep your job. If you get into the Sweet 16 in March, those checks keep getting cashed. And so I look at Lincoln Riley and I say to myself, he doesn't get to play Oregon State anymore, or Washington State, or Cal, or Arizona. Now it's Ohio State.

It's going to be on the docket. And Michigan and Penn State, the travel's worse, the weather's worse, and also the two teams, the three teams that followed into the Big Ten are Oregon, Washington, and his rival. So I can see Lincoln and USC going, guys, we'll play Notre Dame occasionally early in the season. We don't want to have an annual November game, and I defend blowing up that rivalry. Urban Meyer doesn't like it, But from a coaching standpoint, how does it land for you potentially not making that a regular game? I get 100% where the Trojans are coming from. Now, do I like that for the greater good of football?

Absolutely not. No one does that loves college football. That's one of the most historic rivalries in all of college football. So it's like, wait, what? What are you doing? But I get it because you said it. It is about getting to the college football playoffs. And, you know, I actually like the selection committee.

I kind of like that subjectivity. But one thing that I do think has been a little bit skewed with them is strength of schedule. They always talk about that. But when it push comes to shove in my mind, when I look about who they put in, they lean very heavily on the wins and losses, maybe more so than the strength of schedule.

You know, I look at the March Madness like you were talking about, and they have all these metrics, and no one seems to debate those on strength of schedule and RPI and all those type of things. And I think if college football brought that a little bit more into the game with the committee, I think it could make for a good formula. So listen, most college football coaches yourself potentially included are they love tradition of it.

And there's a lot of movement. There's the playoff. There's the NIL. There's the transfer portal. Now, the thing that bothers me more than everything is the transfer portal because my take is I don't mind if you transfer. I don't like you transfer in three times. First of all, I actually don't think it's good for the kid. I think you have to fight through bad situations in life.

and if it was up to me, I would say you get a transfer, but you can't transfer more than once over 18 months. That'll give you about two in college. You don't get a transfer every year. And you could say, well, coaches leave. They don't leave every 18 months. That's not the way it works. And coaches, by the way, are bosses.

Players are employees. My bosses at Fox get things that I don't get. That's the name of the game. But if I said to you, what needs more tweaking going forward? the transfer portal or the NIL. What scares you a little bit? What worries you more? Colin, if I'm hearing you right,

are you trying to lobby to be the commissioner of college football? Because I think we take you. I think we would. I mean, here's the thing about what's going on, and I think most fans understand this. There's a lot of good information out there. There's a lot of logic, some of the things you're talking about. The problem is everything's getting sued right now.

And the lawsuits are not over yet, even though the house settlement's coming down and it gives us a little more structure, but who knows how that's going to last. But there's no question. You know, the NIL, I think every most people in the game, the coaches, the players, they get the NIL. I think everybody's on board with that. There's no question. It's the transfer portal and the tampering. And, you know, a guy going to five schools and five years and all. And it's, you're right, it's not better for the kids in the long run.

There's just no real structure to it. And I'll tell you, me being not on the sidelines, my whole heart and soul is into the greater good of college football. And it's just like, I worry, I talk to so many fans like you do, that are getting so fed up with the college game. You know, it's like, I've heard so many people like, I'm out, I'm not renewing my tickets, I'm done with college football. and it's because of, for a lot of these longtime fans,

they have a hard time wrapping their mind around paying the players. That ship has sailed. I think they can get over that. But what they don't want to do is pay these players and then have them leave every year. You don't even know who the players are. And I think you're feeling that even more so

in college basketball. To me, college basketball problems are always a couple years in front of football, the extremeness of it. And you're seeing that in college. I used to be the biggest college basketball and I can't even follow college basketball. So I know that's coming in college football unless we put some guardrails on this thing. So I hope it gets worked out sooner than later.

Yeah, and I also think if you, the transfer portal is one of those things. It's like in life, oh, I make more money, I'm happier, more money, more problems. And I look at the transfer portal and you say, oh, I'm going to go buy, I can go buy a starting corner. Brian Kelly, Lincoln Riley, Dion Sanders, a lot of these programs that brought in heavy transfers, their chemistry is no good. So I still, like Debo Samuel, Davo Sweeney this year is going to have a great team. He doesn't believe in the portal in the NIL.

So I still believe you have to build through high schools. Okay, I want to go to this article, Sean McVeigh. And if you haven't read it, folks, it's just great. And basically, Sean was going through a personal crisis a couple years ago, and you reached out to him and said, hey, I know what you're going through. Sean McVeigh is one of those people that I remember the first time I saw him at the podium. I was like, how old is he?

He's like, should be a president. With your conversations with Sean McVeigh, have you ever met a coach, maybe at that age, especially? What to you is the secret sauce to him? Because I think there's an argument, even within, he is the best coach in America right now. You can argue college or probably. He may be the best coach in the world.

What jumped out to you as a veteran coach with him? Colin, I think you're exactly right. I think this might be the best coach in the world. I mean, and I'll tell you why. The guy is truly a football savant. I can't tell you the type of mind he has, how he remembers things, plays. you know, we've been talking for a couple years

and things that I said to him, you know, years back that he'll bring up and I'm thinking, I said that? He doesn't forget anything. So this guy truly knows offense, defense, inside and out. He could be a world-class defensive coordinator. So he truly is the best in terms of X's and O's, as good as anyone that I've certainly encountered. But to me, what makes me,

makes him so special is, you know, before he's, what, 38, he won a Super Bowl, been to another one, and has the humility to say, yeah, this isn't working so well. You know, all those things that we've been after our whole life isn't feeling exactly how it should feel. And for him at that point to say, I need to figure some things out and then make the changes, it is phenomenal. Like this guy's an inspiration to me, and I can't wait to more coaches get to hear him talk. Because first of all, most coaches that are in the hot seat, in their current positions, aren't going to talk about being miserable and how hard this is. They're just not going to go there.

Sean will. He's that secure. He has that type of humility. And it's just awesome. And then for him to go and work to change his own game, it's just really like nothing I've ever seen. And so he's an inspiration across, you know, in terms of the total package of like, because it's that thing like, you know, when you talk about change and, you know,

it's that cartoon, you ask, hey, who thinks we need to change and everybody raises their hand? And then the next question is, okay, who wants to change? Nobody's going to raise their hand. Right. I mean, the hardest thing we have to do in life is probably change our sense. and this guy is full on embrace that. And so for a guy that's accomplished as much as he has, as smart as he is, to have the humility, the self-awareness to go, I need to change some of these things to help myself and this

pro. It has been, it's an inspiration. I can't wait for more people to really figure out and listen to Sean talk. Chris Peterson, one of my absolute favorites, 14 years as a head coach, boy, Casey State for eight, Washington for six, coach of the year, two-time Bear Brian Award winner. We love having them at Fox as always coach, and I appreciate you

on a, I imagine a drizzly day in Seattle once again, joining our show. I appreciate you, Colin. It's great to talk to you, and how many days do we actually have? You know, college football is kind of a train wreck outside of the Saturdays, but on Saturdays,

let's go. Absolutely. It's a little messy, a little chaotic. Chris Peter Anderson, great stuff, Fox Sports. Also, Rick Buecker, Stu Holden stops by. I got to tell you something, that United States men's national team for match losing streak and Christian Pulisic not joining the team. So I'm on Team Pulisic on this one.

He's the world, he's our best player. And I think the signal he is sending is World Cup is won, being a star and being paid eight figures annually, is two and all the other stuff like the gold cup that's a distant third and i think he's right i think as our american soccer players have elevated to the point of starring in europe country first cash second all the regional tournaments distant third so i support it alexey lawless doesn't we'll talk to stew holden next hour it's the herd Want more herd? The herd streams 24 hours a day, seven days a week within the IHeart radio app.

Search Herd to listen live or on demand whenever you'd like. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, new? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a... We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special.

So how do we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this.

We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite.

Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. Help an Acapella band with their between. Queen songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis. And I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs. And on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to work. win on clay. Jenchian win.

I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lena Rubakina is arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I Heart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Tonight is big, could be historic. Teams that go ahead, three games to one, and the history of the NBA are 37 and one in the finals. Okay, so Indiana's fourth quarter supremacy,

OKC starts fast, Indy finishes strong. It's at Indy. OKC look gas, didn't get a lot of time to rest. Indy is great at home. OKC is very vulnerable at home. OKC needs the whistle. When they get the whistle, when SGA gets to the free throw line more than eight times,

they're nine and two. If not, they're a 500 team. J-Mack with the news. No, no, no, no, no. Turn on the news. This is the herd line news. You've heard of the merchant of Venice? The merchant of Oklahoma.

That's going to be the new one when they win the title. All right, Con, let's get started here with my The main man, J.J. McCarthy. Now, I came on filling in for you two weeks ago and really gassed up the Vikings. I liked them. And you came on this week and hammered the Vikings and J.J. McCarthy. Well, the Minnesota media took note and asked J.J. McCarthy yesterday about the narrative of his allegedly weak arm strength. I would say, you know, a lot of it just comes with the stigma of playing at Michigan and, you know, not throwing the ball a lot.

But at the same time, you know, it could be my frame. And, you know, they don't see a 6-5-240 guy, so how can he throw it 61 miles an hour at the combine and all that? But at the end of the day, you know, it's going to show up. And, you know, the people that know, no, no. And, yeah, I think it's just, you know, the situations I've been in and maybe, you know, not passing the eye test for some people. Now, first of all, the word I used to describe his arm strength was modest. His arm is, he's got a modest arm. It's okay.

It's Kirk Cousins-ish. It's not a bad arm. He didn't have a noodle arm. Hi, Matt. Let me just interject with a fact. At the Combine, he had the second highest velocity on his throw, 61 miles an hour behind only your immortal hero, Joe Milton. Remember with the Patriots now, I believe, with the Cowboys.

So carry on. Again, his arm is fine. Do I think it's Alan, Mahomes, Stafford, Do I think it's, no, I don't. I think it'll be somewhere between, you know, 12th and 17th in the league, it'll be, it'll be fine. He's got a fine, I watched them at Michigan. His arm is okay. His arm is Shador Sanders.

It won't be an issue. It won't be a strain. It's fine. I would push back on that, but let me move on to the next element of this J.J. McCarthy thing. So obviously the media was really excited about this. I'm not kidding. They took your word and were grilling McCarthy. do you think honestly he turned the hat backwards because he knows that's a thing you don't like

i'm being dead serious colin no i don't think he's aware of that a lot of people do that people are this is like a running joke among players the hat backwards it's a real thing you made that no i i have had to lecture a handful of players through the years when i see them in person i've told them i don't like it i told bo nicks don't do that but um nobody listens to me and um i think again I don't know what, I said this yesterday. I like mystery with my true crime series, not with my quarterbacks. I just like to, I'm getting a lot of conflicting reports. Much like Sodor Sanders.

He got a great landing spot. Justin Jefferson, a great left tackle, and Kevin O'Connell. And just like Cleveland, Kevin Stefansky. Like, that helps. So do I think that helps? So I think it's harder to be Caleb Williams with Matt Eber Fluey. than J.J. McCarthy or Bo Nix that get an offensive coach.

I think that's about 50% of the game for these young quarterbacks. Who do you land with? Chaos or an offensive guy. So I'm just, I'm not saying it's not going to work. I just, I see mystery. His arm is modest. But we should have seen Patrick Mahomes

getting the gifted landing spot of Andy Reed. And oh, by the way, that guy, I believe his name was Tyreek Hill, who was an electrifying game-breaking receiver at the time. So, you know, Mahomes, he got a better. than J.J. McCarthy's got it. And he got to sit for a year behind Alex Smith. That's about as good as it gets.

Let's get to the next story, and that's the 49ers, Colin. Big off-season for them on the defensive side of the football, and they made some offensive moves as well. They do retain the core of Purdy, Kittle, and Warner, not to mention McCaffrey. Coming off a 6-11 season, Steve Young loves how the front office handled things. I'm very happy with how they handle the off-season,

had a clear plan. It was a plan that was retooling. It wasn't a complete restructure. Now what has to happen is your veterans need to stay healthy. Trent Williams number one. That's exactly. He is exactly right. The story for the Niners.

Because you've lost two very good defensive players in the linebacking unit and the safety spot. Trent Williams is the key. Debo's gone now. Cross your fingers on Ayuk's head. health. And by the way, cross your fingers on Christian McCaffrey's health. He's got a lot of carries and Trent Williams. That's the key to this whole. You know, I've told you before, take Brock Purdy out of it. When Christian McCaffrey doesn't play, Shanahan's record is under 500. Forget Brock. When Christian doesn't play, they don't win as much. Do you think he's going to play

17 games? I don't. I don't want him playing 17 games. Take some weeks off when you're, you know, 12 and 3 and coasting to the number 1C in the NFC. Final story, Colin, is to the NBA. Now, this is interesting. We get a slow drip almost daily of Janus Crumbs coming out of Milwaukee. The latest, which I think is total balderdash, Milwaukee allegedly is pitching Janice on,

hey, hey, you can have the ball in your hands more next season if you stay. And here's a problem. He led the league in usage this past season. Like, what the hell are you talking about, Bucks? And that's why I just don't believe this crap. And a lot of those guys are point cards or guards that are heavy with the ball. Yannes is a big.

Colin, I just don't get it. He was second in touches per game behind Dame on his team. So he's getting the ball a lot. And I don't want him with the ball with two minutes left because he's not a good free throw shooter. So if that's the pitch, if that's your pitch, it's not much of a pitch. I've said this. You got a title with Lou Alcindor at the time. You got a title with Janus.

A lot of these small markets, I mean, if you look at dynasties, the history, Boston, San Francisco, Los Angeles multiple times, Chicago, players more attracted to those areas. A lot of the small markets that win, they get one. A majority of the small markets who are really good don't even get one. You got one. Pat yourself on the bat. You got one. You can get four firsts. I mean, if you go to, if you go to Houston, you could get Shen Goon, another starter, and three first minimum.

In an era over the next 10 years where draft picks are going to be better players, because college basketball due to the NIL is retaining more of its top players and stealing more of Europe's top young players. So, like, to me, draft picks are better going forward than they have in the previous 10, 15 years. So, I mean, to me, this fear sometimes of small markets of, you know, oh, we're losing our star. Oklahoma City, Westbrook, Hardin, Kevin Durant left. They're back in the finals because they came to terms with some guys aren't happy. What we're not going to do is bottom out.

And I think Milwaukee's closer to bottoming out, even with Yannas, than being great. 100%. Now, go do it, Boston did. Danny Ains rebuilt the Celtics.

They were still viable. But Milwaukee's not a viable team right now. Colin, just to hammer home your point, listen, I get it. Milwaukee was excited that Janice,

who was taking, what, 13th overall, became a star, like a global ambassador. But fans need to realize. Like, hey man, we drafted you.

You played here for eight, nine years. If you want to go somewhere else, that's your prerogative. You could do that. I hate that. this idea that fans think, hey, we drafted that guy, he's ours forever. That's not how life

works. If Yonis wants to go see the world or America, let him do it. This idea, if he asked for a trading and people blast him and rip him, I'm just, I'm going to hate that, man. 90% of even great pro athletes do not do a Kobe or a Jeter or an L way. It doesn't work that way, especially in the mobility of society. So I don't know how many years Yonis is beginning to end, been in Milwaukee. It's over 10 years, right, from It's like KD and LeBron with OKC and one. You've got division titles. You've got a ring.

Now go get four draft picks. Shen Goon and All-Star Center. Another starter. Rebuild. I love. By the way, one of the fun parts about being a sports fan is the growth, the rebuild. I mean, you don't think these OKC – they've been selling out every game for like five years.

These OKC fans, they love this. These guys are young. That's part of what's great about basketball or football is the rebuild. Now you can do it faster in football than basketball. But, I mean, how exciting would it be if you're, tomorrow I told you. The Bucks have four first rounders, an All-Star Center from Houston, another center. That's not exciting? And you've got to grow with a team.

J-Mack with the news. Well, that's the news. And thanks for stopping by. line news. John has been there 12 years. Rick Buecker, thoughts on tonight. Indiana wins tonight. They're winning the championship.

They're winning the championship. 37 and 1 if you take a three games to one lead. It is, there isn't outside of Indiana. There's not a GM a coach or a player that it would pick the Pacers. This is crazy. And we may see some history. Rick Buecker next. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern,

9 a.m. Pacific. on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the IHeart Radio app. Hey, we're Kavino and Rich. Fox Sports Radio every day, 5 to 7 p.m. Eastern. But here's the thing. We never have enough time to get to everything we want to get to. And that's why we have a brand new podcast called Overpromised. You see, we're having so much fun in our two-hour show.

We never get to everything. Honestly, because this guy is over-promising things we never have time for. Yeah, you blubber lips. Blame and me. Well, you know what? It's called Overpromise. You should be good at it. because you've been over-promising women for years?

Well, it's a Kavino and Rich after show, and we want you to be a part of it. We're going to be talking sports, of course, but we're also going to talk life and relationships. And if Rich and I are arguing about something or we didn't have enough time, it will continue on our after show called Over-Promised. Well, if you don't get enough, Kavino and Rich,

make sure you check out Over-Promised, and also uncensored, by the way. So maybe we'll go at it even a little harder. It's going to be the best after-show podcast of all time. There you go. Over-promising. And remember, you could see it on YouTube, but definitely join us.

Listen to Overpromised with Kavino and Rich on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news? Huge news.

We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend.

But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes.

I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey, Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. Help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis, and I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay. Jen Chinch win. I mean, she went down at three to, Rabakina, but I'm delighted.

She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lena Rubakina is arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, tonight, everything is on the line. I said this a couple days ago. Here's the bad news for OKC. They're a young team and all the pressures on them. I mean, it feels like Indy's been playing with House money since Milwaukee.

So the younger team is on the road where they're not nearly as good and all the pressures on them to win because they're the favorite. Oh, and by the way, they've struggled in the fourth quarter, and I would argue the best playoff fourth quarter team is Indiana in the playoffs. There are a lot of things, and I had said this before the series. A favorite, they're very rarely in my life,

has a favorite to win the NBA championship in the finals been one of the younger teams. How do young players react to trying to clinch this series even if they're the better team? And right now I'm not sure they're the better team. Rick Buecker is joining us live. You and I were talking during the break. there's, I think

Indiana knew kind of what they were getting. This 10 deep defensive rush dominant score. I don't know if OKC thought Benedict Matherin was this good and T.J. McConnell was this irritating. I feel like you have these two ascending

young players and they're creating havoc and OKC's been dislodged a little bit. And that's my take. This Matherin kid, I mean, I said the other day, there's a little Westbrook here. Like his energy, you loved him out of college. Yes, yes. I know I loved him when he got drafted. I loved his attitude coming out, was fearless, and I believe that he could be this kind of guy. He needed to pull it back a little

bit and become a little more efficient, but he has done that, and he has been a difference maker. OKC, I believe, knew what they were going to be facing when it came to Indiana. I think the rest of the world did not, has not appreciated what the Pacers have had and how perfectly constructed they are to create problems for OKC. And that we think OKC of having the depth and versatility, and they did, they had that. But so does Indiana. And they also, and this may be the biggest difference, they have in Rick Carlisle, a guy who's already won a championship manipulating an underdog roster and winning a title. He's been to the playoffs 16 times. He's won a championship with a team under similar circumstances. Mark Dagnall is a fifth-year head coach making his second appearance

in the playoffs and has never been to the finals before. And so he's having to react and counterpunch with a guy who just understands this platform and what he's doing on a far higher level. And I think that that's why you're seeing Rick Carlisle do something very unorthodox. He's playing a nine-man rotation. You had nine guys in game three play 15 minutes or more for the Indiana Pacers. Oklahoma City Thunder went with the traditional seven-man rotation, and you saw them gassed and exhausted. The Pacers pressed them 94 feet for 48 minutes. He, where Carlisle decided, you know what, I don't know if my stars are as great as their stars,

but I believe that I'm more versatile and I'm going to test the endurance. I'm going to make this a war of attrition because that's the one thing that I have is I believe that I have more players that I can play more minutes than OKC can. They've got to rely on their stars, Jalen Williams and SGA, to drive the bus, on everything. I've got a Benedict Mathuron coming off the bench and a T.J. McConnell who can go get their own buckets and I can give Tyrese Halliburton and Pascal Seacum some rest so that when we do get to the fourth quarter, all my bodies are fresh. You know, with the new aprons and the CBA, you can't stack rosters anymore. Loston was the last one to have like a little bit of a

stacked roster. I would argue that point guard, I mean, when I was a kid growing up centers won titles then it was Jordan and Kobe it was wings I think we can make an argument that point guards efficient point guards that can score and elevate could be the next 10 years you can't stack roster

so what you have to do is get a player that can elevate others and make B guys B plus B plus guys A minus I think Halliburton could be the model and maybe I'm being hyperbolic here but all these aprons we're done

was stacking. It's over. You can't do that. And I look at Halliburton, I'm like, that is the ideal player for Adam Silver's new NBA. Is it not? Yeah, I believe that whether it's a point guard or a point forward, but having a playmaker or multiple playmakers is the answer. Because one of the things that makes Indiana, again, so challenging, is that it's not just Halliburton, but Andrew Nemhart, handles the ball and initiates the offense as much as Haliburton. It's Palliburton does. They've got multiple T.J. McConnell coming off the bench. You have multiple guys who wouldn't be described as great, but just very good. And they have eight, nine players as a result that can feed off of those playmakers and are not going to cost you the same as

having, like the Phoenix Suns with Bradley Beale and Devin Booker and Kevin Durant. I don't believe that the Big Three model has worked for the last four or five years if you really break down the teams that have won championships. But having playmakers who can make lesser players better and scorers and guys who don't necessarily have to score who can just create for others, I do believe that that's the secret sauce. And having depth and versatility and spreading the wealth literally in terms of how you spend your money is the future of the end. NBA. So, listen, KD is easier to trade for than Yonnas because you don't have to give up as much draft capital. And I've made this argument, Rick, I think over the next 10 to 15 years,

we're going to go back to the old, the Tim Duncan era, the Grant Hill era, where college players are on a percentage basis going to be safer picks because more players because of NIL are staying for another year in college. And the NIL is cherry picking many of the top European players. Illinois is going to have five European international starters. So college basketball went through about a 20-year run where the player of the year, a Doug McDermott or a Tyler Hansborough was a rotational NBA guy. And I think two years ago that UCon team that won is the beginning of a next decade of, if you've got six NBA guys, these guys are going to come in and be able to play.

So I think draft picks will mean more going forward, so I don't want to give them up. You don't have to give up much for KD. Is there a fit that you, I don't think it works in San Antonio, but is there a fit to you where he really works and a team has the capital to get him? Boy, that's a tough question. I would say no, not necessarily because the first teams that come to mind are Minnesota and New York in terms of a place where he could go and would be playing for a title and potentially make a difference. But you're going to have to give up, even if you're not giving a. up draft capital. You still have to give up players from your rotation. And can KD at this stage of his career be a big enough factor to make up for the players that you have to give up? People seem to forget that when he went to the Golden State Warriors, yes, they let Harrison Barnes go. But for the

most part, it was because there was this big bonanza of TV money that came in that they could sign him as a free agent. And at that point, KD still had the wherewithal to become their best rebounder, to be a shot blocker, to be a defensive presence, and at the same time, be their leading score or have an impact offensively. I just don't know that he has the game at this point, and the teams that would be looking to acquire him have the wherewithal to make a deal that's not going to undercut them overall. They're not just adding KD to what they have. They're going to have to give up pieces of some magnitude,

contract-wise, in order to acquire him. Finally, tonight, J-Mack has been very good picking the Pacers. He liked them against Cleveland. I've been more reluctant, but I think they have so many levers they can pull, and Carlisle so good at it. I think I like Indiana tonight as well. What do you say? I don't see Indiana losing another home game. And so that includes tonight. In fact, I would expect that tonight's game may not be as dramatic as the last one.

Wow. I just think Indiana has found the formula. If they take care of the ball, they're going to be good. And I just, I don't know what Mark Dagnall goes to, especially 48 hours after. Wednesday's game where clearly SGA, Jalen Williams, and Chet Holmgren ran out of gas at the end. I expect that the Carlisle was going to come with the exact same game plan, and I don't really see a counter punch for OKC unless, unless Alex Caruso has the kind of game that he had in game two, but they're going to have to win the bench battle.

And I don't know that I see the role players for OKC doing that on Indiana's home floor. You know, that's a great point. And we've talked about this for years. Role players and bench players, you get a huge, there's a big delta in their performance based on whether your stars are your stars. Shack and Kobe were good everywhere. But your role players and your bench guys can be phenomenal. I mean, the second quarter for Indiana's bench was, it was. I don't remember a playoff finals game.

I was like, the bench is winning the game. Benedict Mathrin was their leading score off the bench, and he didn't play in the first quarter at all. And Carlisle went to his bench four and a half minutes into the game. That's the formula, is I'm going to play more guys than you play, and I'm going to trust them to get the job done, because I don't have to rely. I mean, if you look at the way the series is gone,

and Halliburton hit the game winner in game one, But by and large, it's not like Siakum and Halliburton have carried this team to these two wins. It has been as much Benedict Matherin and Andrew Nemhart and Miles Turner and Obie Tappen all coming to the table and providing something. Rick Buecker, as always, buddy, have a great weekend, enjoy tonight. Happy Father's Day. Yeah. That Benedict Matherin, you guys were all giving me crap when I said he's got a little Westbrook, played in the Pack 12, most athletic guy in his roster.

He's a most athletic pacer. Insanely confident. A little loose. A little loose. There are moments you're like, slow it down. But I don't know, man. This kid is and plays bigger than his size. That is Westbrook.

Westbrook was super athletic, incredibly confident, ridiculous energy. Plays bigger than his size. And sometimes you're like, slow it down. Turn the governor on just a little bit. You're going a little hot. This kid is, I'm going to stick with it. I don't care what you say. I think he's got a little, he may not be as good as Westbrook all time.

Westbrook's going to be a Hall of Famer, but the kid is jumps off the TV screen. Hour three next. Hey, guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what?

We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it,

but, you know, tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, reader Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on, a Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman. Multi-million dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jet. That's a billion dollar fraud. But how long can this alliance last? Tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the I-Heart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional. who knows what he's doing.

How many men carry a suit or armor. It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed human.