The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Jenkins and Jonez - Jonathan Abrams on Hip Hop History

Episode Date: October 17, 2022

The guys discuss the big money Warriors and the MLB playoffs before being joined by Jonathan Abrams to discuss his new book, ‘The Come Up: An Oral History of the Rise of Hip-Hop’. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The volume. To Jenkins and Jones on the volume podcast network. It is Monday, October 17th. Do you all know I fucked the date up last week on the podcast? No, no, and I don't care, honestly. You can fucking use a day. It's Monday, November 36th. Who gives you fuck?

As always, Jenkins and Jones hosted by my buddy's Dragonfly Jones, aka Tyler. Oh, shit. Hey, how's it going, everybody? Man's forgot his mic, dude. Yeah, that motherfucker was not in this goddamn shot. LeJethro Jenkins, aka. La Jonathan. The Jethro Jenkins?

What's that, Bubbas? I'm Gardy B. A.K.A. Mike. Stay tuned later in the show. We've got a great interview, one of my favorite interviews we've ever done with Jonathan Abrams, whose book The Come Up releases tomorrow on Tuesday. You definitely want to check that out in the interview and the book. But really excited.

We all got copies. They sent us review copies. I'm a couple hundred pages into it loving it awesome book and a great interview can't wait um all right let's talk about the warriors we can start with the warriors

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All right. Let's talk about the Big Buck Warriors. Money bags. Sheesh. Yeah, them boys got paid. Everybody. Do y'all remember that? It's one person.

Do you all remember that clip when they was popping bottles in the locker room and pool and Wiggins was hugged up? They're like, what are you doing this summer? They're like, I'm getting paid. What you do? What you do?

I'm getting for you. I remember that? Yes. Here we are. And they were correct. Yeah. $140 million over four years at Jordan Pool. $109 million over four years to Andrew Wiggins.

It's going to bring the Warriors payroll for the upcoming season to a record setting. $483 million. They got it, though. They'll be a right. I remember everybody saying that Wiggins was odd, man. And I'm thinking like, bro, did you see that man in the finals? Right. All-star starter, as young as he is, you know what I'm saying?

You're going to like, you know, you're going to let that go? Ridiculous. They're too smart to let that go. You know what I mean? So I'm glad he got his bag. I'm glad he wasn't a man. Now he earned that for sure. And it's interesting that he's an all-star starter.

He's young. He had a great finals and Poole still got more money. That's how highly they think of Poole. You know what I mean? So that was something I peeped as well. Yeah. You know, I think the Warriors are to be commended here because we see so many championship teams fall apart because owners don't want to pay people. You know what I mean? So, you know, giving them their props to that because they're not, that's not going to be what's going to cause the downfall of the Warriors. Obviously, they're not going to have Pool or Wiggins Walk. They lock both those guys in. So, I mean, they look like a franchise that, you know, is fine with doing what they need to do to remain a, you know, a championship or a championship contender. Which also brings us to the next point is that there's going to be some tough decisions coming up as well. on the paydays for like Draymond and Clay. So, you know, I'm really not sure how they figured those two out, honestly.

Well, I appreciate it. It's interesting. I'm a Bob Myers fan. I'm always interested in what he has to say. I think he communicates in a way that's like not totally full of shit and also pretty straightforward. But his quote was, I know what the numbers are. I can't evaluate what we're going to do next season until we see what happens this season.

I just know this. There's a huge commitment to winning. There always has been. I believe there always will be. I'm lucky to be in an ownership group that believes that and their actions prove it. And as a Lakers fan, I just have to totally fucking agree with that. And I can't believe that I'm sitting here wishing that the Clippers and Warriors philosophy of winning first would trickle its way down to Los Angeles Lakers. But, and Meyer said, again, they haven't made any kind of decision with Draymond and Clay. He said, we have to take it year to year. If you

asked me a year ago if we were going to pay pool and wiggins this i would not have believed you it ain't a year ago bubble though it's today and they earned that bag you feel me but i wonder really new a clay because i know like you know draymond you know we we've we've talked about that you know i mean so and drayman's not the drayman that got the bag that he's actually playing on currently you know i mean but but clay still has some he's still putting up decent numbers you know i mean and he's you know he's good i mean he's good on decent on decent on the defensive end still and still can get a bucket on the other hand. They also don't have a hard cap.

I mean, they've progressively made it so that the luxury makes you pay more and more of a penalty, but if your ownership group says, we don't give a fuck, I'll pay an extra $100 million to compete for a chance. They might be the yankus.

Who gives a fuck, right? Maybe they pay Draymond and Clay. Like, if they truly don't give a fuck, then the NBA will let you, as long as you're paying a higher and higher luxury tax, they'll let you spend what you want to spend. What's the soft cap?

It's several tens of millions of dollars below what their current payroll is. I don't know that they, I don't know that they're going to feel pressured to make particularly hard decisions. If they contend again and honestly, even with Draymond, if Draymond looks like the captain of the defense

is contending for a championship, I don't, shit. Y'all said it. They have the money. What so? They're not worried about the money. All right. Speaking of, well, maybe a sport

where money is a little bit less predictable in terms of how it helps you contend baseball playoffs have been absolutely fucking crazy and I'm regretting letting my son talk me into being a Dodgers fan a couple of years ago. They just got knocked out by the Padres after one of the best seasons and best regular seasons in history. And the Braves also got knocked out.

So we have a fucking Padres, Phillies and LCS. It's truly crazy but I don't know. It doesn't really feel like there's a lot of playoffs left where is it like baseball and hockey where it's just truly. like who's hot, you know what I mean, at the moment? Like, it's wild. I've never seen anything like that. You went 111 games, you assume you're getting into the fucking championship series.

Like, I don't, that's the thing about baseball. I mean, I don't know shit about hockey. I'm, be honest. I've watched like 12 hockey games in my entire life, you know what I mean? So, but baseball, I remember like the Braves those years when they were like fucking stacked and they would get beat by the Phillies and the Blue Jays and shit like that. And it's like, who the fuck? Nobody was talking about these niggas all year.

You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? And so that's baseball to me when it comes to the playoffs. As much as we shit on baseball, I think it's one of the most exciting playoffs because there's no guarantees. Like going into that Padre series, there was a chance if the bats got cold,

they can lose at all times. There's like you said, there's less guarantees in baseball than possibly any other sport. Yeah. Baseball playoffs, like I cannot imagine being a fan of a team watching baseball playoffs, right? Because the whole shit about, you know, I think the things that bore me about regular season baseball

excite me about playoff baseball, right? The slow pace, the build up to the suspenseful moments, right? Like that bores me with regular season games, but it's the whole shit of the whole playoffs. And it has me on like the edge of my seat. I cannot imagine being a fan of a team dealing with that shit, bro. Yeah, it sucks, bro. It's fucking terrible.

It was like 111 wins. And I think it was the biggest run differential since 19, 16 and then they lose 3-1 to a team that they went 15 and 4 against during the regular season. The regular season is like background music. You know what I'm saying? And then like the playoffs is like the most of spit. It's Jaws. You know what I mean?

Like you know what I mean? It's just like the discrepancy between like the regular season and playoffs and baseball is probably the biggest. You know what I mean? Of all the sports. Because it just, it feels like a totally different sport when a playoffs begin. Like it's a sport I can actually watch. watching enjoy. It's not that during the regular season, you know what I'm saying? 100%. All right. Stick around for our interview with Jonathan Abrams.

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author of All The Pieces Matter, the Inside Story of the Wire, the author of Boys Among Men, How the Prep to Pro Pipeline Redefined the NBA. Currently at the New York Times as a sport reporter, he is here to discuss with us. His new book set to drop, which is called The Come Up and Oral History of the Rise of Hipop. We have the one, the only Jonathan Abrams. Jonathan, how's it going, brother? What's up, fan? Thank you for having me on this week.

I would have not done good on Nina's episode. My fruit knowledge is probably limited to now and later flavors. We did discuss candy flavors in that. Like, you know, I discussed how I had no cherry flavor was so much better than cherries when I was a kid. But you guys went in depth. Yeah, yeah. We go in depth. She had a hipster list, Jonathan, for sure.

But I was impressed. And it was, I was laughing with my wife about it because she was like, this is definitely someone who's mom shopped at Asian grocery stores. Because my wife was, those are all my wife's favorite fruits. But she was like, you weren't expecting Kiwis and white nectarines on a top five fruit list. Yo, my kids will probably have scurvy or something because they do not eat fruit. Really? Nah, I cannot force them unless it's like a popsicle or something. What about vegetables?

Any type of balance there? Balance? Nah. Just meat and carbs, baby. You know what I'm saying? Real medieval with it, you know what I'm saying? Yo, I have a five-year-old, the only meat he'll eat is Chick-fil-A chicken nuggets. I swear.

You got taste. I mean, I can't, if I had to pick one meat, that might be on the short list. Yeah, my daughter will eat Chick-fil-A chicken nuggets or white starch carbs. She'll eat potatoes. She will eat rice. She will eat bread. And that is it. My little brother, my little brother for two years, all he ate was white rice with

soy sauce and Honey Nut Cheerios. And he still has his abs at 26. So only person is still got him. You feel him? So yeah, they'll be all right. So Jonathan, man, first off, this book is incredible, bro. Like, it is an accomplishment. You know, I think the history of hip hop is something that has been written about a million times before. But never

quite like this where, you know, it's an oral history where you spoke with like, I think over 300 artists, DJs, radio hosts, record label execs to bring this story to us. It's such an ambitious project and it's fucking incredible. So I'm just curious about the process here because, you know, like I said, it's such an ambitious, huge idea that manifested itself in an incredible way. So I just want to know the ends and outs of how you put this, you know, an incredible all-encompassing piece together.

I appreciate that because I feel like I was working on this thing since like Lil Wayne started his mixtape run. It's been a while. It's been a while and I would like talk. to some of my journalist friends and let them know that I was working on something like this and I would see their side eye, be like, you're going to try to do what?

Yeah. But I mean, I probably would have side-eyed you too. Like it's like I said, it's a ridiculously ambitious idea that you nailed. You know what I'm saying? It is, but you know, I thought that hip hop is something that hasn't been excavated as much as it should, especially those pivotal early days, right? Like, it's such a gargantuan industry and it permeates

all a society, yet do people really know about cool Herc and Grandmaster Flash and Cold Crush Brothers? So personally, I wanted to learn more. So I started from that perspective. And then as I continued, it turned into this story, this almost saga of how this musical genre rose from nothing in the Bronx and just permeating everything that we see today. Gotcha, gotcha. Going, you know, you mentioned, you know, you wanted to flesh out the the birth of hip hop a bit more. And, you know, I'm someone who, you know, as Braun said, I consider myself a hip hop historian.

You know what I'm saying? But, you know, reading through the first few chapters, like, I'm learning too. Like, you know, there was something, you know, there was a passage that she wrote about the blackout in New York City, 1977. Like, I was familiar with the blackout of 1977, summer 1977. I think a lot of us are. But I had no idea the role that it played in like bolstering hip hop and kind of jump-starting hip-hop because, you know, it was a young genre just started in, you know, like five years ago,

72 at 1520, Sedgwick had, um, Sedgwick, you know, with the Koo-Herk party. But it's like, you know, I never put two and two together because everyone said after the blackout, you know, these stick up kids went looting and everybody had DJ equipment after that. You know what I mean? Because, you know, you know, these hip-hop pioneers, they weren't 35-year-olds with 401Ks. They were broke teenagers from the hood. You know what I'm saying? So, so I'm just curious, like, you know, during your research here, was there anything, you know, you? You know, you discovered that that kind of blew your mind, like any other, you know, like serendipitous type shit where you're like, wow, if this little thing doesn't happen, this major thing doesn't

happen. Yeah, it's interesting. You look at how things build off of one another. And I'll just go with, in 1982, the message comes out. And hip hop up until that point had been really just party music, right? Like, rappers delight. But the message comes out, and it's something more meaningful. It's social construct.

It's broken glass everywhere. and School E.D. is in Philadelphia. He's an up-and-coming artist. He hears that song. Yes, PSK launches off of that. So PSK launches off of that, Parkside Killers, which is really the start of reality rap, hustle rap. You know, the media called a gangster rap, but they called it something different when they were starting it.

Ice-T hears what School E.D. is doing. He comes out with six in the morning. Ice Cube and NWA, and everybody is listening to what Ice-Tee. and Schoolie D are doing, then they come out with boys in the hood. And then that thing, it all propels off of one another. There's so much a hip hop where if one thing doesn't happen, the next thing doesn't happen. Right, right. Ice-T told a great story about how when he started rapping, he said, you know, I was doing hip-hop.

You don't stop, you know, party-type music. And he said, his homeboy came up to him and said, yo, Ice, man, you're rapping about parties. He said, we don't go to parties. We rob the parties. And he was like, yeah, you're right. And that's when he shitted the two of a gayster rapper, right? So yeah, it's just, it's just little shit like that.

But like you said, it's for sure like a domino effect of things. Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry. No, I was just going to agree with that. And then just to illuminate on the blackout a little bit more because I think that's such a pivotal story. You got to think about what was going on in New York at that time when it's the summer of Sam. The Bronx is desolate. It's decayed.

The Bronx is burning back then. and the kids really have nothing to do. And being a DJ, it's really, really expensive to buy all that equipment, and plus you need space. So it's really an undemocratic playing field where only a few of the privileged kids can actually do it. So that blackout really, really evened out what was a really unfair playing ground. And then a lot of crews come up after that because they're mixed. You know, you've got a turntable.

I have a mixer. You know, that's how a lot of the early groups actually form. Yeah. So we talked a little bit before we started recording. Like I'm always fascinated with the process by which things go from being popular culture, right? Like Shakespeare Dickens, like anything, you know, that survived from art from however long ago was just like at one time what people were doing for fun, right? And then at some point, there's this transitionary process where it becomes kind of enshrined into capital A art and it becomes academic and everything. else. And I think there are some rappers, you know, like Jay-Z obviously is very self-consciously

concerned with that process, right, of how that's going to happen for hip-hop. But to me, I mentioned to you, like, I think books like yours, like this to me is sort of where you start seeing scholarly works that are still entertaining are part of that process too. And I'm just kind of curious, like you mentioned feeling like these origins were important because of how big hip-hop has become. Did you have a sense of kind of writing for history or writing for posterity or kind of being a part of that hundred year conversation about this music that really did become popular in our lifetimes obviously. I mean, I think the goal is that with any work that you're doing

that hopefully it lasts. And I felt the responsibility of putting something together important. And especially talking to people whose stories weren't as well known, who were really impactful. Edwin Fletcher, who went by the name Duke Booty, he helped co-write a lot of the message, and he passed away last year, and I knew that his story wasn't as well-known as it should be. So, you know, somebody like him,

I'm really, really happy to get his name and his thoughts and reflections into this book. Same thing with Rocky Ford, who helped Curtis Blow do Christmas rapping. And he passed away, unfortunately, but I was able to include him in this book. So getting people like that who may be honest well known,

but who had a really, really great hand in helping hip hop and birthing it from the start, basically. It's something that I'm proud of. Did you say his name was Duke Booty? That's what he went by. Interesting. They had some names back then, though. Yeah, you got some name like a motherfucker, but you've talked about

in a podcast before that you said, couldn't listen to rap growing up. Like, your mom was like, keep that rapity rap stuff out of my house. You know what I mean? Now you're writing a book about it, you know, about the history of it as a whole, you know? You have kids and rap is the most popular thing in the world. It's ubiquitous at this point. You feel what I mean?

How are you managing that now? Like, I mean, you know, I'm wondering how are you approaching it in a similar way or do you just like, yo? Because then you talked about like Tupac being really important, you know what I mean? And you, you know, making sure to tap into that back in the time when it wasn't, you know, wasn't even close to the biggest, you know what I'm saying? It was, you know, more underground at that moment, you know what I'm saying? So I just wonder how you're managing that. Yeah, no, I have an eight-year-old and a five-year-old, both boys,

and I walk around the house playing Kendrick Lamar, playing whatever. Now, I say that, and I also come with the caveat that I have a way, when she hears curse and she'll give me the Jonathan, and I'll turn it down a little bit. But, you know, especially when I'm driving around in the car with my boys, like I want this music to, I want them to know it. You know, I want it to be in their. And, you know, it's all just just words, you know. And if they have the knowledge to be able to, you know, be educated and know what words they can use in school and whatnot,

but be able to still hear the message. I'm fine with that. We're similarly aligned on our parenting philosophy there. But I am curious because my kids are nine and six. They're almost the exact same ages of years. What don't you? Is there anything you don't let them, you know, watch or listen to or anything as they're getting older? because you got an eight-year-old, I have a nine-year-old,

they're right on that brink of like, it's difficult to have any say-so and what they want to do, obviously. Like, is there anything you're planning on kind of keeping from them or are we as a generation doing away with the concept of you're not allowed to partake of whatever? Honestly, I don't know if this parenting advice works for everybody. And like I say, my wife balances me out.

But, you know, I feel like kids these days are going to be exposed to shit way earlier than we were when we were growing up, it's just impossible. My kids have iPads that they use and play the games all these times when, you know, we become too lazy to do stuff with them. The honesty is respected, bro. You know, and, you know, I feel like it's the world we live in and I just try to, you know, instill those values where, you know, they know right from wrong, you know,

because they're going to be challenged throughout life. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Something that hopped out to me is, you know, the hip-hop world, it is, you know, expansive, but it's also tightened it at the same time. Like, I was reading an excerpt where Big Gip from Goody Mob, you know, he mentioned that Tupac

played Hit him up to him and Left Eye. Big Gip and Left Eye were the first people to hear hit him up. Like, you know, I knew Pock and left eye were cool. Like, I knew he introduced her to Andre Rising and all that, but I had no idea like, you know, Big Gip and Pock were homies. You know what I mean? So, like, you know, during your research, was there anything that, you know,

kind of hopped out to you and like that kind of surprised you like any any friendships or like, you know, bonds or anything like that on those lines? Gip was like this universal figure that everybody loved, right? Gip cool as fuck, super cool. Gip was cool with Pimp C. He was cool with Puck. He was cool with Biggie.

Let me think of what comes in mind. Shorty B, he was a producer. He was somebody who worked with both Biggie and Pock, and there's only a couple producers who have done that. Easy Mo B was another one. So hearing both of their perspectives is, perspectives of working with those two guys at the same time were really unique and informational for me, especially for that Biggie Tupac chapter. That's one that comes to mind immediately.

For sure, for sure. People sleep on Easy Mobee. He had his hands on ready to die on, you know, Tupac Me Against the World. Like, Easy Mobee put in work, man. Yeah, he's super, super talented. And he did Craig Math. Yeah, yeah, Flavin, yeah. And, you know, speaking of Pock, You know, you did mention that Pock was like your favorite rapper, right? Yep. Yeah. What's like your favorite album, favorite track from him? Man, I get it.

Like with Pock, the thing I love about him is that it's like whatever mood you want, there's a song for you, you know, like, especially growing up, like I didn't, I didn't get that education that I wanted to about the world around me or that I felt I needed until I was able to listen to Pock the way I wanted to. So I think about changes. I think about, you know, dear mama. I think about, you know, I think about hit him up. When you want to go straight, straight this row on somebody.

Yeah. And Brenna's got a baby. I mean, I think that song just really, really illuminated for me the world back then and gave me an education on stuff that I didn't even know that I needed. For sure, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, Poc contained multitudes, man, for sure. He accomplished so much in just 25 years.

Like, it's so crazy to look back on. Exactly. But, um, go ahead. Mike, I'm just warning for you. Do you remember where you were being Southern California native like me, where you were when Tupac died? Um, yeah, actually, and it's kind of a crazy story. I tweeted about this.

And then it ended up, um, Jeff Proman wrote about it for, I think for Rolling Stone. But, um, I was, uh, I was a student at Polly or about to be, but I knew people on the football team, they actually saw him. They got into like an altercation with him. They were on their way back from Vegas, and he was going to Vegas. I remember that Perlman story. Yes.

So he got that off of, I had just tweeted about this because I knew some of the guys on the team and I knew the coaches. And it sort of popped off in Southern California, a little mini Twitter of like, Like, there's no way this happened without someone having written about it. And that was my lesson that instead of tweeting interesting stories that I've heard from the homies, I need to just fucking pitch the story to Rolling Stone. But Jeff did a great job with the story. And so, yeah, like, but that was all wrapped up in it because it was this like, every,

all of that happened so fast. But yeah, I mean, that felt like in Long Beach, you know, obviously he was very connected with Snoop and a lot of people who, when we grew up, those people weren't media titans. They were your friends, older cousins, homie, you know, whatever. And so I think, as I'm sure you had a little bit as well, we all had this feeling that we were kind of in the center of the world, right? Like, we're listening to Power 106 or we're sneak listening to Power 106 or whatever. And then three months later, this stuff we listen to everybody's listening.

You know what I mean? So I definitely had that feeling of like it just kind of felt like being in a movie a little bit. Was that, was that your experience too? Yeah, I mean, for me, when Pock died, it was like one of those, like, man lands on the moon moments that you'll never forget, like, where you were when that happened. And, like, I've only ever gotten that feeling. The only other time in my life I've gotten that feeling was when Kobe died, right? Like, when, like, the laws of physics aren't supposed to apply to this person. They're way too young.

Like, this isn't real. And I remember, like, for years after, like, the, the, music that Pock had kept being delivered, delivered, delivered, and you would just think that he would be in Jamaica chilling. Like, I really wanted to believe those rumors. I was fully a Poc is in, uh, is in Costa Rica or Jamaica conspiracy theorist for sure. And part of it was just being 13, 14, like, well, how would this album be coming out otherwise, you know, and just not having a real understanding of the world. He's Jesus on the cover. If you switch the words around him at Maca Belly, it's, says I'm alive.

Disregard the K, but it says I'm alive. Yeah. Those conspiracy there is about him chilling in Cuba and all that were, yeah, yeah. But I mean, I was down the rabbit hole of like, if someone that famous got killed, they would have caught who did it. You know what I mean? Like,

there's no way there wouldn't be someone in jail right now. Like, look at every other president that got assassinated. They caught the guy who did it. Like, I was fully down the rabbit hole on all that shit. For sure. Yeah, so Jonathan, you know, you said Pox your favorite rapper, but you also mentioned that Dr. Dre, the

chronic G thing, like that was what drew you into hip hop. For me personally, like you can see the tribe, you know, poster in my background. Like, I remember Benita Applebaum being the first song that I fell in love with as a rap fan. So what was it about, you know, Dre's sound, the chronic sound, the G-Funk sound, that kind of,

you know, just captivated you and made you a rap fan? That's a Southern California sound right there with the synthesizers and the P-Funk and rolling down the window. and driving through Southern California. That was one of the first times that an album really, really got radio play too.

Just a hardcore rap album, but straight radio play all across the country. And it was just music that you could vibe to. It was the one, two, three, and to the four. There was a great time for music, and especially hip-hop music. Yeah, the chronic was a monster, bro. Like, G-thing was one of those songs

where you can say like it shifted the entire soundscape of rap. You know what I mean? When that shit dropped, you know, the crown kind of went from New York to L.A. You know, L.A. kind of became the dominant sound. The chronic is just a masterpiece. I think it's like if you asked me to name out like Mount Rushmore, Top Five, it's up there for me. Yeah. And you go by what it influenced.

I mean, the chronic helped influence UGK. It helped influence outcast. It helped influence a bunch of stuff that came afterwards. For sure, for sure. Yeah. And, you know, you've interviewed. you know, like we mentioned, like 300 plus people here. So, like, who was like, you know, like a surprisingly cool or fun interview?

Like, I know you probably came across some dickheads, you know, the odds just say that that had to be in the mix. But, like, who was like, you know, someone you got off the phone and was like, wow, that person was surprisingly cool as fuck or whatever? I don't know if there was anybody who I was surprised by, but like the people who took time to really think about the questions and really give illuminative answers for somebody just growing up when I grew up in the era I grew up, somebody like Ice Cube, just for his impact in the hip hop. Killer Mike was dope. Just Blaze was real cool. There's a lot of people

like that who really, really stick out. Yeah. Yeah, I want to know who the dickheads were. You were smiling when he says someone was a dickhead. I know you're not going to tell us, but I'm just saying. There's a couple people who immediately came to mind. I wanted to ask you, just as a writer, I just wanted to ask you about the work that went into this. You mentioned that your first draft of it was considerably bigger. And I just like, just as much as you know off the top of your head, can you share with us some of the logistics, 300 plus interviews, like, how long did you work on this? How much effort was it to get it down into like one book length? you know what I mean?

Like, you must feel like unbelievable that this is about to actually come out this week. You know what I mean? And be done, right? Yeah. I mean, I think I started this in 2017. And just to start it, I think first off, I read about 30 hip-hop-centric books just to make sure that I had a good base of knowledge before I even started out on this thing. And there have been, like, I don't want to get it twisted.

there had been some really, really good history of hip-hop books done. Jeff Ching did a great one, and Dan Charnas did a really, really good one. But I knew that an oral history format would be different in these icons names and icons voices being delivered and almost having it like they're in a room bouncing ideas and thoughts and reflections off of one another. So that was a big thing. And then it was knowing like I would have to hit these big tent poles in my, milestones and hip hop in this book and also knowing that I needed to be flexible with the voices that I did get to include to be able to tell their story. Like there's no one story that's going to or one book that's going to be able to capture this great every important person, moment, history, date in hip hop history.

Like that's impossible. But I wanted to be true to moments and sparks that really influence and propelled other moments in hip hop history. history while also telling individual stories inside of this book. For sure, for sure. Well, you nailed that shit, man. Like I said, this book is an accomplishment. You should be extremely proud of yourself because like you mentioned, I probably would have side of you like, how the hell are you going to make this happen? But you for sure pulled it off, man.

Appreciate you hopping on with us. As we mentioned, the come up in oral history of the rise of hip hop in stores October 18th. Make sure you get your copies. A hell of a read. Appreciate you hopping on us, Jonathan. Oh, man, I appreciate it. Thanks, guys. For sure.

Our thanks to Jonathan for hopping on with us. Like I said, up top. If you have a chance to go pick that book up tomorrow, definitely make sure you go and get it. It looks like an instant fucking classic to be completely honest with you. Tyler, how far? Have you been reading into it still? Yeah, yeah. I skipped around a bit, but now I'm reading like chronologically and shit.

So I'm on like 100 pages deep right now. It's so good, man. Like, you know, I told her, I feel like, bro. This feels like an instant classic. Like this might be like some hip hop Bible shit. You know what I'm saying? So shout's to Jonathan Abrams, man. of a piece of work.

For sure. All right. We've got an instant classic of our own right before we started recording. John's daughter, Somi, took her first step. She was like waiting until we recorded to start walking. She's been playing around with it, taking like one, two steps here and there.

You feel what I'm saying? And then like, rather telling me, John, she just took six steps. So obviously, like, yo, I'm going to let me go over there, brought the camera. She walks to me. she walks to the couch dog man like i just i man i i know it's going to be like i it's weird understanding how much harder being a parent is going to be now but also still wanting it to happen like it's so it's a weird experience but yeah man like i don't i haven't been that happy

or proud possibly ever maybe when she was born but so these little things she took steps oh my god i'm like fucking elated you know what i'm saying like a human's being a human It's funny, but yeah. Yeah, but I think that's the crazy thing and having a baby reminds you of that that like other than breathing and blinking, we had to learn every single thing that we do every single thing.

Like, you know what I mean? Like, like you, every single thing that I did today would be, you'd be losing your mind if Somi did it. If she, like, put a sock on. Bro. And bro, that's what's so funny to me.

Like a kid, like, she'll, like, she'll, like, feed herself. And I'm like, good job. I'm like, you know. like it's fucking confetti comes out the ceiling and shit you know what I mean like the smallest things we're celebrating you know what I mean

so but yeah that's like that's the perfect like other than breathing you know what I'm saying and fucking you know what I mean like everything is learned and it's interesting seeing a human from this perspective you know I mean just constantly learning every day but yeah man

Shorty we got a walker now bro we got a we got a walker man I don't know to feel about it. I'm excited, but I'm also, you know, there's some nerves there. But yeah, she was curious because she's already in everything. Now she's, now she's just, you know, it's going to turn that up by 10, you feel me? She's expanding her catch radius. You know what I mean? Right. Right. Right. But so. All right. Normally we end, like, usually when I'm putting the topics list together for Jenkins and Jones, I will scroll back through the group chat because if we

were having fun talking about it in the group chat and then we'll have fun talking about on the podcast or I'll scroll one of your guys's timelines or whatever and no one's really, we haven't really, none of us been tweeting anything in the group chat. We can't talk about what was in the group chat but we can talk about how we can't talk about what was in the group chat.

We haven't had one discussable text in the group chat in like two weeks. That's how you know the group chat popping on. That's what it's really good when you can't talk about it. What goes to the group chat stays in the group chat the last few weeks, man. me. You feel me? Shit, dog.

We'd be canceled if it got out of his playing. It's not that bad, but yeah. The woke mob would be after Jenkins and Jones. I would pivot to an anti-cancel culture person very quickly if the group chat got leaked. Oh, shit, oh, shit, man. Maybe we should quit while we're ahead, though. Maybe we should Somebody gonna hack our shit

You feel me We gonna be out of here dog Not Tyler Not because Tyler does See they might hack the I message That's a problem That's only problem With the iPhone

Tyler There we go Save y'all man You saved us Thank you Your brick did the work That we needed to do You feel

All right y'all Thanks to Jonathan Abrams For hopping on with us Thanks to Jackson and all Of the other producers On Jenkins and Jones And we'll see y'all In the middle of the week

I think we're doing our NBA preview for the Thursday episode since the season's starting this week. So make sure and check out Thursday. We will talk about every team in the league. And block Kanye's name on Twitter. Just block his name, dog. Let's not talk about that man no more.

Let's move on. Yeah. He's gone. It's over with it. Yeah. Thursday NBA preview. We will talk about every team in the league, even if we're only talking about your team

to say that we don't want to talk about your team. So check it out. I love the NBA preview every year. We have a fun time with that. So we'll see you all. Thursday. Bye. Bye. Bye.