The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Jenkins and Jonez - Tashan Reed Is Your New Favorite NFL Reporter

Episode Date: April 1, 2023

The guys are joined by The Athletic’s Tashan Reed to discuss racism in the NFL and his new narrative podcast series “Between The Lines”. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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We're excited to welcome on our guests for this week's Jenkins and Jones and friends to Sean Reed of The Athletic, his brilliant podcast, between the lines of podcast about race and diversity in the NFL, just wrapped up on March 7th. you can find that either in the athletics football feed or it now has its own feed wherever you get your podcast. I know Tyler and John and I have all been listening to it and really enjoying it.

To Sean, thanks so much for making time to come on the show, man. We appreciate you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate that promo right there. Yes, sir. We're professional now. We just get all the promo out, you know, we bang it,

and then boom, we're done. Now we could talk like human beings. Yeah, yeah. Get to the shits now. Yeah. yeah so um so to sean man first off like bro i just want to congratulate and commend you on this project it's really fucking incredible um you mentioned you put 18 months of work into this and like bro i just hope you know you're taking some moments here and there to just be proud to

telling yourself for this you know so give yourself some paths on the bat but um so you know it's such a thoroughly extensive project where you know you really dug into like the specifics and you know the details and the timeline and you know the the minutia of the NFL's, you know, spotty history in regards to diversity hiring. You were so detailed in your reporting and your storytelling here. And while you were like, you know, laser focus on the NFL here, the project also feels like while the NFL is under the magnifying glass here, if you zoom out, it's so much bigger than the NFL. It's like an allegory of the black experience in the corporate world. The black experience trying to climb the socioeconomic ladder in this country.

It's like, you know, the NFL is what's been. being discussed on a micro level here, but those are the issues that's being addressed on a macro level. And it was done exceptionally well. So I'm just curious, you know, as to what motivated you from a personal standpoint to take on such, you know, an expansive and such an important project. Yeah, I think it's more of like a life story for me. Like obviously, anybody watching this on camera, they can see I'm black. But I grew up in Ferguson, Missouri. I have older parents. Like my dad, he just turned 75. So he was born. into Jim Crow, grew up in the Civil Rights Movement, you know, grew up in the projects in St. Louis, his family were sharecroppers from Arkansas.

And so he had a lot of context in terms of the shit that black people have been through in this country. And then my mom, she grew up in Arkansas in the 60s and 70s. And so she had a very direct relationship with the South and how things, you know, how to get down, down there. So I already had that baseline, you know, context for what being black in America could mean. You know, not that that's everybody experienced, but some of the ugly side that was in the past and that was still going on. And so I always was very aware of what it meant to look like me in this country. But I will say that living in Ferguson, which is about 70% black in the area that I did, like I never really noticed it to be an issue for me personally because everybody around me was black. All my friends were black. Most of the people I went to the school

were black. And so, like, there weren't really, there wasn't racial tension. Like, I didn't have, like, issues with being ostracized because of how I looked. And so it wasn't until 2014 when I was getting ready to go to college. And Michael Brown got killed about two weeks before I went to college. And, like, I didn't know him personally, but, like, we went to the same high school, our freshman and sophomore years, so we had a lot of mutual friends and kind of word kind of spread quickly what was going on and then kind of just seeing, you know, it wasn't the first time, obviously, that somebody black had been killed by police in the questionable circumstance in St. Louis, but seeing the way that the community reacted in terms of the protests, seeing the way the

police reacted in terms of the force that they used, and then how that was covered on a national scale. Again, this is, you know, going into college where I had already decided to go working in journalism. and pursued at Edmizzou. And so I saw how the industry that I was about to go into talked about people that looked like me. And so I kind of made the decision then pretty early on that like, you know, if I did make it to the point

where I had a journalism career that I wasn't going to cover it, how most people covered it at the time in what was sort of the origin of the Black Lives Matter movement that's become very, you know, corporate now and kind of, you know, trendy now. And so like whether that was whatever league I covered, Whether I stuck with sports or didn't, like race was always going to be something that was part of my coverage. And more specifically, you know, the issues that black people face and not just issues, but like our culture, just blackness in general was always going to be something that was a part of what I do. And so just kind of the natural progression, like I've always written about race, whether that was when I was covering Florida State football in my first job with the athletic in 2018 and 2019 to being on the Raiders beat since 2020.

And so it's always been a part of my work. And this was just sort of like the most fully fledged version of that coming through. And kind of a new medium for me. You know, I'm mostly a writer, but this podcasting world, it's kind of a new space. And then it gave me a new challenge to kind of tell a familiar story, but do it in a different way. I was around 30 when Mike Brown died. You know what I mean? Like having lived in Ferguson, like made runs to that liquor store or trillions times that he was at.

You know what I mean? That quick trip was a quick trip that I went to. I went there even more than the liquor store. You know what I mean? Like, you talk about Mike Brown's death and how it affected you, you know, I influenced you, you know what I mean? But you were like born and raised in Ferguson. You know what I'm saying?

With the school with the man. Like a lot of connections there. Like, how was that experience for you at 18? Like I said, I was 30 and I feel like there's, for me, there's more before Mike Brown and after Mike Brown. Like that, I remember talking to Tyler, we would joke about how our, you know, how our, you know, I mean, we didn't, like, we, like, I think that woke us up. Like, you know, like that woke us.

We approached like, oh, we reminded the shit ain't sweet. We got, there's a lot of work to do and we need to be a part of that. You know what I'm saying? And I remember the streets and like the city feeling like like almost that street in particular felt foreign because it felt like it was occupied. Like it felt like red October, you know, to me. You know what I'm saying? Like, how did that, how did that feel to you?

I was confused, honestly. Like, I just didn't think that that could still happen. Like in terms of the just. just a really militant response that the police, you know, came with to that protest, which is mostly peaceful. I know everybody talks about the rioting and all that, but that was later on initially, even when it was just completely peaceful, they were still acting like that and tear gas and, you know, beating people up and all kinds of things like that. And so, like, again, like, I had my parents who had lived through that kind of stuff. But I was like, yeah, that's 40 years ago. Right. There's no way that could still happen now, right?

Like, I knew it was, I ain't, you know, I had no illusion that, like, racism was gone. Like, but, like, for me, like, in my context, at that point, like, since I'm 18, like, Barack Obama was in office. I'm like, we got a black president. Like, this can't possibly, like, something like this can't happen. So when it did, I was just, like, in shock, I think. And, like, it took a while for me to really, like, accept, like, even throughout the, once the, once the, I guess it wasn't a trial, but the, the grand jury kind of deliberation before they ultimately, like, said that they weren't going. on the charge during Wilson, like, when that came down, I was just like, I cannot believe that they're really going to let them, like, get away with this, you know? And so that for me was

very eye-opening in the sense of, like, what America still was. And, like, it, you know, I also kind of got a kind of prepare me for what was to come when I went to Missouri because my, it was very tense on campus because a lot of black people at Missouri are from St. Louis. And so my sophomore year, shit just kind of started to pop off. Like there was like a white student that carved like a swastika in a bathroom made out of feces. Like it was like they were riding around in hoods and pickup trucks and throwing bricks through dorms where mostly black people lived at and they knew that they lived there. They were like coming up on black women in downtown Columbia, Missouri and like ostracizing them. And we had a black student body president at the time who was gay and they pulled up on him and yelled all kind of slurs and things like that.

So eventually it reached a breaking point. And sort of some of the students kind of formed this group on campus, sort of pushing for formal acknowledgement and formal change from the university because they really just kind of disregarded it. And so like it kind of rapidly evolved to the point where like the Missouri football team was like, we're not going to play unless, you know, something changes. And then that's when everybody kind of descended again and like, you got CNN flying out and people protesting in the quad, which we called it.

And, like, campus was, like, we were getting, like, bomb threats and shooting threats. I'm like, get yak from, like, people saying they're going to come shoot up every N-word they see on campus. Like, like, we had, like, a situation where, like, we had to go to the black coaches center on campus. And, like, people were so scared that they didn't want to go to class that we would send a group of, like, 10 to 15 black people to walk people to class and then go get them after their class and walk them back. So it was like, I went from Ferguson to basically Ferguson at my college. And then Trump got elected and everything that came with that. And so for me, it was just like, oh, like, this is. This is like a crash course of just like all this stuff coming at me at a very young age while I'm like trying to figure out what I want to do in my career and like everything like that.

And so I think just having that that influx really shapes, you know, what type of journalist I ended up becoming once I got started in this business. I wanted to ask you a little bit about. One second. Mike, I got a question about it. I just wonder how your parents reacted to it because like I remember like being there in a city and like a lot of people were like don't go out. Like a lot of the older people who had fought through it. Like, don't stay inside. Stay inside.

You know what I mean? And you were active, I was active out there. Like, what was that experience like with your parents and like the elders? You know what I'm saying? That, you know, just one of the best for you. Yeah. And so, like, my, I kind of had a unique experience with that because my dad, he was retired by then.

But growing up, like, his main job was he was like a CEO at the county jail downtown, or not downtown in Clayton. And so, like, he knew, like, he knew from his life experience, but also, like, he knew the ends and out specifically of how the St. Louis Police Department operated and how they handled things like this. And so it was like a hard stop with him. Like, nah. Don't go down there at night. Like, if you're going to do something, get the hell out of there before sun goes down. Like, and that's, it's kind of ironic because, like, when my dad was my age, Ferguson was a sundown town. And so there were like some parallels there. So for him, I'm sure he just had. It was a fear for him because he was like, I mean, like I said, Michael Brown was my age. We went to the same high school. We were both, you know, graduates that same year for him. It's like, that's not happening to my son. And same thing with my mom.

And so like they just wanted to make sure that like I didn't put myself in a situation. Because like I'm not like a super confrontational person, but like once I get there, I get there. And so I can say some things and maybe do some things that I shouldn't, especially at that age when I was 18, 19. team, like, you know, just naturally more, like, you don't think too much. For sure. And so they were very, like, protective and kind of concerned and worried about it. Obviously, I'm all right. But, you know, that was something that I definitely heard.

Not just them, but also I have four siblings and they're all older. I'm the youngest. Like, my youngest sibling outside of me is 38. And so they all were also very protective and making sure that, because I was really the only one of us that, like, was born and raised in Ferguson. Like, all of all the other ones had, like, bounced around. live in different places, but that was my home. And so, like, they knew that I had, like, a different level of connection to what was going on. And so it was very much like a thing, not that it was about me.

Like, obviously, it was much bigger than me, but, like, my family was very intentional about, like, making sure my head was on straight with that whole thing. I'm just curious about, you're talking about your life experiences growing up. And I think for, you know, a long time, especially in sports, but in all journalism, there was this idea that it was like, because, a priest or something, right? Like, okay, this was your life up into this point. And then now you're a journalist. You're going to take off your ethnicity. You're going to take off how you grew up socioeconomically. And now you are like an objective, like circle of light or something, right, that like is just processing news and reporting it back out. And your generation, and I know you went through the Sports Journalism Institute, I believe, right?

Yeah. And I mean, everyone I've worked with, we've been like, lucky enough to hire graduates that institute. I mean, really a strong thing across everyone I've worked with who came out of there is your generation is really starting to turn around that incredibly idiotic idea of like putting aside who you are as a person in order to do the job of reporting, right? Is that something like that's a end of that's a, this is really more of a question I guess for the end of your career, not the beginning of it, but is that something you take pride in and are conscious of that like you and your generation are sort of starting to make that really, really big change for us as a country?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I went to the Missouri School of Journalism, so it doesn't get too much more about a book than that for people that aren't familiar with it. But so there was, I mean, during that time when the protest started my sophomore year, they were very intentional about telling my journalism students like, don't participate, like, stay objective, don't post anything on social media. And I, you know, I was like, fuck y'all. Because my thing is, like, the first thing I was in this world was black.

And so that's what I'm going to be when I die. I just want to be this whole way through. And so I'm not putting that to decide for anything, let alone my career. And so I made that decision early on. And, like, you know, I mean, at the time I was a student. So it wasn't like, you know, I was making some bold proclamation or something. Like, you don't even formally get into the J school until your junior year. But when I did get into it, the year coming off, coming off all that stuff, my sophomore year, I was like, yo, this is how I'm operating.

And so if y'all don't like it, don't really care, like, it's how it's going to be. And so, like, even like my first internship, like, it was working for the St. Louis American, which is a magazine in St. Louis. It wasn't sports-related at all. And I'm writing all these, like, criminal justice reform and, like, these, like, you know, foundations. And I was not at all, like, really. like I did my sports journalism class and stuff like that, but I was kind of like getting on like another track almost until I kind of like zoned back in

when I did start pursuing things with the sports journalism institute my senior year. I went through that program after I graduated that summer. That's when I really started like, all right, I still want to do sports. Let's hone in on this and really lock in. But like I said earlier, like that was still something like always in the back of my mind. It's like I'm still going to work this into my coverage.

Obviously you can't force it. Like when it's not there, try to make it something that is not. Like, I don't believe in that. But when the situations do arise, which they will, because, you know, races cannot be separated from journalism or sports or anything in this country because of the history of this country, which, you know, as much as people want to forget it, like, it's very tangible and still felt today. And so that's, you know, luckily having that, have an SJI, which, you know, kind of gave me that foundation of a lot of black and people, black journalists and people of color and women and people that are, you know, from

these marginalized groups gave me more comfort in that being my approach. And so like, even my first job covering Florida State football, like that was when Willie Taggart was there and he got fired his second season. Like he was terrible. Don't get me wrong. Like they were awful. Right. Broke there, Bowler Street. But he got fired and I believe it was 21 games. And like this is when the homeboy in Nebraska that used to play there was still employed and a bunch of other terrible coaches and like, like towards the end, we was about to get fired, like somebody posted on Facebook, like this Photoshop picture of him, like his face on a lynching victim. And like, there was just a certain side of it that people just didn't seem to want to talk

about. And like, I'm at this time, I'm 23, I think, 22, 23. The only black person, really, that was on the beat of some prominence. And so I was like, I'm going to talk about this. I'm like, you all get mad at me, so what? And so, and then that kind of carried over to the summer of 2020. When I started on the Raiders beat in 2020, and obviously everybody knows what happens then. And so I wrote about race pretty candidly for the athletic and told some of my life experience.

And in 2021, when John Gruden popped out as like the greatest bigot of all time, like I was, you know, critiquing him for doing that. And Mark Davis, after the George Floyd verdict, he, like, tweeted out, I can breathe. and I wrote that he was wiling out for that. And so it's been something that it's just always been a part of my career and it's been very intentional. And I don't, and even outside of my work, like on social media, like, I'm very open about discussing what I think about many things, but also race. And that's never, that's never going to change.

And so if a company wants me to, I'm just not going to work there. And I'm fine with making that decision. Real one. You know, I mentioned how detailed and how, how, comprehensive, you know, all the research that you put into this project was. And, you know, there was a lot that I learned here. There are a lot of, you know, eye openers, you know, for me listening to this. And one was, you know, I realized that I was not all the way completely familiar with the origin of the Rooney Rule, right? Like, I wasn't, of course, I wasn't naive enough to think that

the NFL did that shit out of the goodness of their own heart. You know, I just always kind of thought that there were probably grumblings from, you know, within the NFL workforce. But, you know, you went into the history about how there was an outside group that did some independent research and had Johnny Cochranist's lead counsel. So the NFL decided to get ahead of that shit because they knew a lawsuit was coming, right? So, you know, that was an eye opener for me. I wasn't quite aware of the specifics of that. So I'm wondering, like, you know, during all the research that you've done, you know, on this project, you know, what was, like, the biggest eye opener for you?

I think for me, it was, it wasn't, like, one individual thing. It was just as I reported it out, like, I just became more aware of, like, just how comprehensive the issue is in terms of the NFL's race problem. like we always point towards the owners for the lack of black hair coaches, which they are obviously very capable of culpable for that being an issue. But it's like it's kind of corny, but it's like it's on everybody, really. I guess the players, you know, because of the way they've been suppressed, they don't feel comfortable using their leverage and their power like a Colin Kaepernick did to try to push for change. It doesn't really happen that much, even now amongst the coaching ranks. Once we do have black head coaches that get in some spots, a lot of times they don't hire black coordinators or black quarterback coaches or promote them to positions that lead to head coaching jobs.

Black GMs, a lot of times, they hire white head coaches and promote white people throughout their support staff. Obviously, you know, owners, there ain't know black people there, but the owners, you know, and we all don't know what their issue is in terms of this and why they behave that way. And then me as media. Like, there ain't that many black reporters out here either, which I don't know if people, you know, keep that in mind all the time. And, you know, a lot of these publications, it's starting to change now with like the summer 2020. Like I said, it's going to trending now. But historically, it's something that you didn't really cover because of that old objective mindset.

Like, oh, that's politics. It's going to make us lose our readership and all that kind of shit. And so, like, it's on us, too, to make sure it's a constant conversation and not just something that we talk about during Black History Month, during those glorious 28 days. And, you know, when the hiring cycle is up or there's a lawsuit from Brian Flores or like there's something, or Colin Kaepernick happens. Like, you can't just talk about it when it's a flashpoint moment that's going to get you a lot of clicks.

It's got to be something that you talk about a year-round. Like, you know, because it's a year-round thing. It's ever, unfortunately, it's something that's always the case. And so it takes, it's going to take all of that. Plus probably external pressure, like lawsuits, the threat of lawsuits or sponsorship dollars being potentially. stripped away. Like, you know, the best example of that is probably what we saw with the Washington football team, you know, with them changing their team name. That was because of sponsorship

dollars. So it's going to be something like there is no like quick one size fits all solution for this. It's not going to, it's going to take a lot of time. And unless it's a comprehensive effort from everybody, it's just never going to change. And again, it's not an NFL exclusive thing. Like that's America. Like, this is what this country was built on. Like as much as people want to run from it, like it's a racist country and it's built on systemic racism and slavery and stealing people's land that wasn't theirs. And like that is in our infrastructure. It always has been. And that's how it was designed.

And so changing that isn't easy. Obviously, it's been in place for hundreds of years. But the only way to do so is a collective effort and surge that's constant and doesn't waver it because if it waivers, then you get all that shit starts to strip back and it starts to revert. And then you get in that cycle that never really ends. And so that's what I, like I kind of already knew that. But I just analyze, because every episode, like episode one is kind of the historical context

And episode two is the players, episode three is the coaches, episode four is executives. And episode five is sort of taking a look at everything comprehensively. And so, like, getting into the granular details of how race impacts things at every level just gave me a greater appreciation for, like, how much it actually needs to be improved and done for there to be sustained change, not just these brief, you know, glimpses of hope. You know, when we get like an 07 after Tony Dungey and Lovie Smith faced off in the Super Bowl, we have seven black hair coaches. or right now I think we have five black GMs or no we have eight black GMs and five black team presidents but would that be sustained like you know no it's not unless you know those things that I mentioned change and so I think that was really my biggest takeaway from this project throughout my all my time working on it and that's really kind of what I landed on in episode five

at the end where I kind of gave them a monologue just kind of giving my thoughts on everything for sure and if we could stay on the Rooney Roo for just a second more Um, you know, I'm curious on on your thoughts of it. You know, I know it's easy to get delusion with it given its underwhelming results, but I personally think it's still very much needed for a number of reasons. And, um, you know, I'll get into my reasoning why I feel that way. But I'm curious to hear on, you know, where you stand first. Yeah, I mean, like the premise of it is cool is just it doesn't have any actual backbone. Like if they break it, which they do every year, nothing happens.

So like, why would I stop breaking it? Like there's no consequence. There's no checks and balances. And so it's like, it's like, it's a. great rule in theory, but if you just let people break it and nothing happens to them, it's pretty useless. And so there has to be some sort of enforcement component, like, you know, in these obvious situations where, like, clearly it's a sham interview and they knew who they're going to hire from the jump, hire from the jump, and they're just interviewing a couple random black

people just to say they did. Like, there has to be some sort of recourse. And really, the only time that happened is, I believe it was with the lions at one year where they got a fine. And even in the fine was like, you know, six figures. I didn't shit to the NFL team. They don't care about that. And so, like, it has to be like some sort of actual, like, consequence that they would care about incurring, um, to really make them follow that rule.

Otherwise, it's just like a light suggestion, which obviously is not going to do anything. Okay. Um, so where, where I'm at with the Rooney rule, um, one, I think that, you know, a lot of people are hardwired to think that if a solution is an absolute and doesn't comprehensively,

and holistically solve a problem, then that solution has no merit. And I just wholeheartedly absolutely disagree with that line of thinking. The results of the Rooney Rule are unduewhelming, for sure. It doesn't really have a lot of teeth. But I don't think you really put that onus on the rule itself. I think that, you know, the brunt of the blame should be placed on the people making these hiring decisions. And secondly, I think that, you know, there are all types of hurdles that diverse coaches face.

And we need to, you know, combat these. hurdles at every step in the process. And one of those hurdles is just getting an interview, right? Black coaches and diverse coaches are not plugged into a lot of these networks that white coaches are hired from. They're not in these, you know, good old boys networks that a lot of their white counterparts maneuver in. And I just do not know how you, you know, combat, that without the rule. Like, how do you fix that? How do you tell these 75-year-old white owners that they need to embrace black people more in their personal life, that they need to, you know, invite more black people to Thanksgiving, get them more.

group chats with black people, right? Like, I just don't see a viable alternative. And like I said, I see the flaws of the Runeer Rule clear as day. But, you know, I think that falls on the people making the hiring decision. It's not necessarily on the rule itself. Well, I don't think the Rune Rue Rue is going to do those things that you mentioned. There, like, there is really no on us on them to build those relationships just because the Rune Rune Rue exists. I think it has to be more so supplemental programs that are put in place, which they used to have, something that Ron Rivera, who I interviewed for the series, is that when he was up and coming coach back in the 90s and early 2000s, they had this sort of kind of minority coaches

summit where they had opportunity to meet with ownership and build relationships. And that's where he met the Spanos family, who owns the Chargers. And they ended up hiring him as a coordinator a couple years later. And when he was interviewing for the Panthers head coach and job, they called Jerry Richardson who passed away, he called the Spanos family for recommendation. And they gave a good one because they had a relationship with him because he met them at that summit. And so like that's an example of, you know, that sort of relationship paying off. But then they took their program away. They most recently brought it back last year, I believe. And so we'll see if that provides some

different results. But you can't just be a Rooney Rule. Like you got to have formalized programs like that where they can network, not just with owners, but GMs, have coaches, other decision makers. and learn how to angle themselves towards these positions and make relationships. Because relationships is probably the biggest factor when it comes to these head coach and hires. Like, if you're running a billion-dollar corporation, you're not going to hire somebody to effectively run it for the most important component of it that you don't have a good relationship with. Like, that's just stupid. Nobody would do that. Right.

But if there's nothing that, like, provides a forum for them to build those relationships with people that don't look like them and that aren't in their bubble. how would they ever form those relationships. And so that's where, to me, not just on the decision makers, not just the owners, that's where the league office comes in. Y'all have to create some more. Like I said,

they're bringing some of them back, but you have to make sure that they're actually, like, effective and not just there for show and shake hands and kiss babies and take some pictures and post some shit online. Like, it has to actually be, like,

useful. And so there's always more it can do. If it's just a runny rule, like I said, it might as well, it's useless to me. Like, it has to be supplemented by consequence

if you don't follow it and also supplemental programs that support it and lift it up and, you know, help those, you know, required interviews for the head coaching jobs, for the GM jobs, be interviews with people that they actually know. Because if you just have them interview a bunch of strangers, they're not hiring those strangers. That's why the numbers are what they are now. And I can't really knock them for that. I can knock them for not making a better effort to go make the relationships. But, you know, like these people, they're rich, white billionaire. It's like, what reason do they have to get outside their bubble?

You know, so unless you like make them basically, they're not going to do it. And so that comes on the league office, which I know they don't have all the power. Like, ultimately, they work for the owners. And so that's where that kind of conflict happens. So, like, to a degree, the owners have to be willing to do it. Otherwise, it's just not going to happen. But I do think the league office can do a better job in steering them in the right direction. For from a creative standpoint, like with this project, how consuming was this?

You know what I mean? It's so thorough, so well thought out. You know what I mean? Like the interviews, the context you add in the narration, you know what I mean? I don't give a fuck about football. but I'm loving this. You know what I mean? Like it's, you know, like, how was it piecing all this together?

How consuming was it? What were your days looking like? I needed every one of those 18 months. I'll say that for sure. Part of it was just, like, a lot of it was just honestly that I didn't, I still had to do my day job, you know, in a sense. Like the month I pitched a podcast, I believe, in September, 2021. And I officially started meeting with my producer, October. and that was the month that John Gruden resigned.

So that was fun. So you had some of shit going on that month is what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, I cover the Raiders. I cover the Raiders. So, like, there's always something going on. I can't not do my, I can't not do my job. Right.

And so I do that and do the podcast. And so, like, the first few months was mostly ideation, figuring out, like, you know, how many episodes, what we want the episodes to be about? Like, what is the overall tension of the project? you know, what's the format? How long do we want the episodes to be? Who do we want to reach out to for interviews?

How do we want to do those interviews? What are the interviews going to be about? And so there's just a lot of like prep work, I would say, in the first few months. And then we started interviewing people. And with a topic like this, you know, it's difficult to get people to talk on the record, which was the only option because it's a podcast. Like, I can't. This isn't like a story where I can make you an anonymous source or anonymous quote.

Like, even if I don't say who you are, people don't hear your voice. Right, right. Right, right. You are. So, like, it was harder to get yeses for this than, like, a written story, I would say. And then figuring out the scheduling and the timing. So, like, the reporting process was another task in itself. And then once I had sort of a good foundation of reporting, then came something that I'd

never done before, which was script writing. Zero idea where to start. And so, like, I have to write the scripts for all five episodes. And that was sort of an evolving process of, like, you know, I started with what I had. And then as I did more interviews, I went back and changed things. flip things around and cut certain things. And I have a producer that I was working with throughout all of this and acting like I was doing this by myself, but I was doing, you know, most of the work on that front.

And it was more so like getting some assistance along the way. And then, you know, kind of coming into this year, I would say in January, that's when I felt like I was at a good point where I still was doing more reporting, but I felt like I was good enough with the reporting and where the script was to start voiceover ahead of, you know, our plan launch in February. And I had never done voiceover before. Like I do a podcast. I have our Raiders podcast.

I do twice a week during the season. But there's just a different, there's a different type of audio that voiceover is, like your voice inflection, your tone, the consistency you have to have. Like the recording setting. Like I'm in my living room right now. And there I was in my closet in my bathroom,

my bedroom, my bedroom, with the door closed, with my mic position a certain way. to like make sure that like the acoustics around me and it wasn't echoy and all that kind of shit that I just never even like gave any thought to in the past. And so that was a process. And then when we started getting the episodes together, I was listening to it and I was like, I don't sound good enough. And so I went and got a different mic and re-recorded the entire series about a week before it came out. So like I said, I need everyone those 18 months.

It was a hell of a hell of a tag. especially balancing, you know, like I said, my day job, which is, will be tough regardless of what I cover, but especially covering the goddamn Las Vegas radio. You know what I mean? So, like, it was a lot. Like, that made it more rewarding at the end and more so seeing the response from my colleagues at the athletic, other people in industry, my friends, my family. Like, it was hard for me because the series came out over the course of a month and I was still in process. Like when the first episode came out, I was working on episode two. When that came out, I was working on episode three.

When that came out, I was still working on four or five. And so it was hard for me to really like appreciate it or like say how I felt about it until it was all the way out. And like I kind of sat back and like just kind of took it all in and all the reaction that I got. And that's like, I would say really the last couple weeks is the first time where I'm like, and that was pretty dope. And that's 18 months after I started it, you know. So it's been a process for sure. Can I ask you a dorky technical question? Sure.

Exciting. I thought it was a really brilliant decision to structure this sort of moving up the power structure as you did. Instead of doing like episode one, the 60s, episode two, the 70s, what went into that decision? And it sounds like you made that decision kind of like you said, when you're doing the prep work for it. But what went into kind of choosing to structure it that way so that it wasn't just to like, We're going to start way before anyone's thinking about. You were able to incorporate kind of the history of all these different things in each episode. Yeah, I kind of viewed it as like an inverted pyramid because like I said,

I think we always start with ownership. We always go there directly with this issue. Like it's their fault. Like it's like starting with the players. People are probably like, why are you starting there? Like it's not their fault. And so like, no, it's not. But like you need to understand like this is where it starts.

This is the foundation. Like this is why as further you go up, people get further away from this issue and care less and this is why in episode five we get a better idea of why this is how it is right now and so that was kind of my my thought process with it episode one is more of a it's a pretty wide wide ranging episode like it's more of history it goes all way up from you know the start of the NFL to you know Colin Kaepernick to you know today basically um coming off george floyd and so that one's more of like a foundation table setter but then from there i kind of wanted to It's just like, all right, we're going down to the perceived bottom of the, the bottom of the perceived power ladder and going to work our way up just because I think that's kind of the opposite of what people expect.

It wasn't just trying to be contrarian, but I think it like served the purpose of giving, every step up you go, you have more context, more context, more context. So when you get to the ownership level, like, oh, I absolutely understand why this is how it is. At least that's what I was hoping people came away with it from. That's how I took it. No, for sure. Like I said, I thought it was, I thought it was a really, it's not like when, when the show was pitched to us, I was like, oh, that's obviously an interesting topic. But I was really sort of blown away by that structure. I thought that really like unlocked the whole way you reported through it for sure. Thank you. I want to talk about episode three. That particular episode, you know, stuck with me in a very unique way. In that episode, you discussed Clarence. Sheldon, who was the Charters run-inback coach, worked his way up to their offensive coordinator

during the Ledanyan Rivers Gates era when they were one of the best offenses in the league, right? And, you know, he had aspirations of being a head coach and, you know, had interviewed multiple times, but he ultimately retired at, I think it was 58, which is young as hell for a coach to retire. You got like 15 more years in the tank at that age. And he retired because he had grown weary of fighting a battle to become a head coach that he felt he wasn't going to win. And, you know, I had mixed emotions about that. Part of me was, you know, just just so crushed that this, you know, football mastermind walked away defeated with so much more to give. And part of me, you know, actually respected and was happy for him, you know, that he

was protecting his peace in this way. So, you know, this episode was about Clarence Sheldon in particular, but, you know, it was also about how crushing the glass ceiling can be for black professionals, right? So, you know, with that said, I'm curious if while putting this together, if there was like any story, any interview, any fact you came across that just kind of, you know, hit your emotions in a unique way like that story hit me. That was it. Because honestly, I did not know. I did not know who Quirren Shilman was when I started this project and zero idea we were. Same in. A lot of that.

It makes sense because, for one, I was like 12, I think, when he became their offensive coordinator. So I didn't really necessarily know who the NFL assistants were at the time. But he was basically Eric Bien to me before Eric B. enemy. Obviously, we all know who Eric B. enemy is now. Like, we're very aware because I think it's covered in a different way. But it was easier not to know who, if it was 10 years ago, it would be much easier

not to know who he is. And that's because Norv Turner got all the credit for the offense. It was his offense. It was his superstar players. And so, like, Claire and Shelman was like, he's there. But, like, he's not really, that's not responsible for any of that. That's the way that it was perceived. And so, and for I think his story, why it stands out for me is I think, you know,

and I've written about, you know, the coaching issue before at the college level, at NFL level. And I think people get sort of tired of hearing the same numbers and the same story arc every year over and over and over and they kind of get desensitized to it. And to the fact that these are like people, these numbers, like these aren't just numbers. These are individuals with like emotions and families and things going on in their life. And I think Shelman brings that to light because he was like literally getting up to go to work in the morning and feeling shitty about himself. Like like this, he had millions of dollars. He was making six figures. He was a highly successful team.

Like he could have rolled that shit out and kept going, you know, for like I said, no, 10, 15 years and made even more money and been cool. But like it was such a burden on him mentally that he literally could not do it. anymore. And that's like, we don't really get that, you know, when you just look at, oh, there's three blackhead coaches or four technically, but three who identifies black, like, all right, cool, it's the same number I saw last year. And you before that, and here before that, like, who cares? But it's like, when you get a story like that, then it really brings it to light. You know what I mean? Like, like what these people have to go. And not that, not that everybody is like that, like, you know, like, I can't live with myself, you know, because this is taking such a

burden on me. But that does exist. And there's probably more of those people than, then you would think of. And it's not just coaches. It's executives. It's players who end up in these situations where they feel like they're contained by the system and can't be themselves and speak out and get to where they want to go. I mean, like, I know we like forget it since, you know, we had a Super Bowl with two black quarterbacks. But like, Doug Williams had to go through hell to be the first black quarterback to

to be a starting quarterback on a team that won a Super Bowl. And so it's something that I think his emotion and his passion, which I think you can hear in his voice, which is another thing, like, about this project that, like, I think I learned. Like, there's just a different feeling you have when you hear somebody say something and you can kind of feel their emotion versus, like, reading it on a page. Right. Like, if you just read the course that he said in my story, it probably wouldn't hit the same versus, like, if you hear his voice and kind of like the choppiness of it. You know what I mean? Like it just hits you in a different way. Yeah.

I was going to say like Doug Williams. He just, you know, that was something else that, you know, you know, kind of, you know, hit me in the emotions when he was just talking just so matter of factly about his upbringing in rural Louisiana. He's like, yeah, you know, I had to be home, you know, before sunset or I might get lynched, you know, basically. Right. And he and for sure that that resonated in a way that when you hear it wouldn't if you read it, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's hopefully that, you know, it's not like, I wouldn't say it's inter.

I wouldn't say it's like, I don't know if it's. tan is a word, but I think it just, it kind of grips you a little bit more when you get that component of it, that you just lose in some other mediums that there are out there. For sure. You have your age and your Twitter bio, you're 26. You young as hell, my boy.

You feel me? You know what I mean? You can tell, no wrinkles on that face. You know what I mean? It's nice and taut. Hey, hey, I turn, I turned 27 on Saturday. Oh, hey, happy people later. Happy lady. Happy lady. Happy lady. birthday. He's still, you're still good 10, 15 years away from the hokas with John. But yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know, man. The young folks, some people fucking with the hokas, you feel me. I don't know. We'll stay away from that. But anyway, bro, you're extremely successful. I know you went to Missouri, you know, J school, which is what, like top two, top three

in the nation, something like that, but like, it's top one. Top one. Okay, there we go. Okay. You know what I mean? Top one. Yeah, but is there like, you know, we get a lot of listeners that are like trying to figure, no, it's no USC. Jackson says no USC. They do all right in Missouri. USC's an entertainment department, Jackson, not a journalism department. But I'm wondering, like, you know, was there any particular things you think that was key to your success or, you know, any advice you give to? We had a lot of people that are trying to figure it out.

They'd be hitting us all up about, you know, what they're trying to do with their lives. But is there anything like, you know, in particular you've done, you think that kind of was beneficial to you to be so successful, so young, doing this important work you're doing currently? Yeah, I think it's kind of a basic answer, but like my thing, I've always put, put working, you know, above all else. Like a lot of people I feel like that in my age, we like to talk about what we can do, what we want to do. Like, I think I can do this. Like, if you give me the opportunity, I can do that. It's like, yo, just go do it. It's like bust your ass and get it done.

Like, I pitched this podcast to the athletic. Yeah. Yeah. I know I wasn't going to get no extra money for this or anything like that. But I was like, yeah, I'm going to do this because I want to do it and see if I can do it well. and push the boundaries of my career and become a better talent, I guess, overall. Or, like, I don't just write about the Raiders. Like, I write about, you know, the Aces here in Vegas and sports expansion and the NBA

and Summer League and boxing and all these other things. Like, I don't have to do any of that. Like, I'm not getting paid to do any of that. But I do it because I know in the long run, when it comes to me getting to where I want to go, it's going to pay off. Like, it may not be immediately when I want it to be or exactly how I want it to be, but I'm going to get there. And like that's the thing. I think people, when they don't get that instant gratification, they allow that to affect their grind level, you know, as I like to call it. Like they just, God, man, I didn't get what I want. I'm just go ahead and do my daily job and just do the bare minimum and get by it so I can get up out of here. Like, that's not going to help you. Like, you got a bunch of especially like if you're a person of color or a woman or both or some other marginalized group. Like we are not going to get given anything in any industry.

in this country or most countries probably, and especially not in the journalism world. And that's something that SJI, the Sports Journalism Institute, really drove home for me with Sandy Rosenbush, who was a white woman, and Leon Carter was a black man. And Greg Lee is a black man who run that organization and just a network of people that came out of there from, you know, Malika Andrews to Marcus Thompson to, you know, some others, you know, throughout the business. Like, you know, you just learn, like, you got to bust your ass. Like, it's like, it's, like, it's kind of the old cliche, like you got to, you know, work, work twice as hard to, you know, get the same result, you know, as some of your other counterparts. And so that's my thing. And it's like,

you have to be consistent with it. You cannot waver it. You cannot give them any, like, ounce of a reason to like, see, I knew he was, you know, lazy or I knew that, you know, he didn't want to, or she didn't want to go for it or they weren't serious about this. You cannot give them any room to, like, discredit you, you know, for the talented individual that you are. And so that's always been my mindset and like I don't really see that changing. Um, you know, and like, like, like, like, like, I'm, not, not where I want to be yet. Like I'm not, I still have a lot of work to do and places to go, but I feel like I'm on the right path because of that. Um, and that's something I'm always going to keep intact. And that's a other part of it is like once you start having success, you can't get

complacent. Like, you definitely want to appreciate it. I'm not saying like, just keep going and going and going. Like, you want to like definitely be mindful, like where you've gotten, um, you know, wherever you happen to be. But you can't just ease up and relax. And, because again, that's where they just gives another opening for somebody to doubt you or say you can't do something. And so it has to be like this constant quest, like almost a never-ending quest to continually, you know, improve and get better. And the only way you can really do that is to work. And so that's my advice to really people of all ages, but particularly, you know, young people. That's good advice.

Tyler, you got a last question? Sure. There was a quote from Beaumani Jones. I said a homie, Bo, that I feel. feel like, you know, if you had to pick just one quote, just kind of one thesis statement to, to kind of, you know, encapsulate what the issue is here. I feel like Bowen nailed it when he said, you know, something on the lines of, um, the problem is, you know, white people fundamentally believe that black people are intellectually inferior and we're not going to make any progress until we

address that, like paraphrasing them a bit there. Um, so, you know, that was what stuck with me as, kind of, you know, I guess the thesis statement of sorts of this project. So I'm curious as to what you would say to Sean is kind of, you know, what you would say is like if you could boil it down to just a quote to, you know, something in your words. Like what would you say is the thesis statement of this project? Um, I think the biggest thing is like the reason why all of this, you know, is what it is, is racism. Just got to be honest.

Like, you know, I'm not saying that everybody is a racist. But a lot of people that are causing this issue. are either racist or they're okay, you know, continuing to live and thrive in a system that's built on racism, which you might as well be a racist at that point. And so, like, people don't like to hear it. It makes them uncomfortable. It's like, oh, wow, I can't possibly, you know, why are you calling me a racist? Like, I have black friends. And I'm like, no, like, this is, that's what it is. Like, that's literally the only answer. There is no other explanation. Because we've seen too many times that, like, when companies are diverse or, you know,

where it's a coaching staff, where we're talking like sweet, sweet level stuff, it only makes you better. It only makes you more money. Like, just look at, like I said, just look at the Super Bowl.

Patrick Mahomes is like the best quarterback I've ever seen in my life. And he used to tell him, people that look like him that they couldn't play quarterback just because they have his skin color. Imagine if they just didn't let Patrick Malone's play quarterback. You know how fucking stupid that would be?

Like, how much less money the Chiefs and the NFL would be set to make? And so it's like the only reason you actively exclude people. from a talent pool for any position that look a certain way is racism or sexism or transphobia, homophobia, whatever it is, whatever the label is, like, you can't get around that. And people have to stop ducking and dodging and trying to find these alternative,

you know, reasons for what the issues are. Like, that is it. Like, we have to embrace that, accept that, and find ways to combat it. And so you can't, you can't fix the issue until you acknowledge what the issue is. And so that's my, you know, kind of thesis from the this project and you know we'll see if people you know want to do that in the coming years they haven't shown me any reason to believe they will but um hopefully they do so we can see some some progress not just in the NFL but you know in America and the world as a whole for sure for sure wise words man big fan of your work here big fan of you rooting for you i'm sure man during your path you got a fan in us welcome back anytime you want to hop on man it's been a pleasure like

I said this is an incredible project highly recommended to all our listens go check it out. All right. Sean Reed, thank you so much. Check his workout at the athletic. And please go check out between the lines podcast. It does have its own feed. Like he said now, all the episodes are out. All five of them, brilliant podcast. Thanks so much for hopping on with us and being so generous with your time. We really appreciate it. And like Tyler said, we're all rooting for you for you for sure. Hell yeah. I'm a boy. Thank you. Thank you.