The Herd with Colin Cowherd - LIVE NBA Draft Reaction: Cooper Flagg to Mavericks, Ace Bailey to Jazz + favorite picks & surprises

Episode Date: June 26, 2025

Jason is joined by Carson Breber and Logan Camden of 'Nerd Sesh' for a live watch-along for the lottery of the 2025 NBA Draft. They'll react to every pick including Cooper Flagg, Dylan Harper, Kon Knueppel, Ace Bailey, V.J. Edgecombe, and more, plus react to any trades made. They'll also discuss the Boston Celtics recent moves trading Jrue Holiday and Kristaps Porzingis.   #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Well, this is our second, we haven't done this since the Victor Wembenyama draft, the nerdsetsh guys, if you guys remember. This is our second NBA draft live show that we've done since I've come here to hoops tonight. We brought together a group of hoop heads, uh, good friends of mine, all guys that love the NBA that cover the, the NBA for a living. Obviously, you guys know Jackson from the show. And then Carson and Logan from NerdSesh are joining us tonight. We're going to be talking as the draft goes along. We're going to be covering some other big picture topics around the NBA, like the recent trades at the Boston Celtics, have made some rumors about stuff going on with the Philadelphia

76ers with the Los Angeles Lakers. We're going to talk about some big picture topics surrounding the draft. And that's where I want to get started tonight as we kick over to Carson and Logan. I am this this draft is loaded with a bunch of interesting storylines. Obviously we have Boston already shedding a bunch of salary. They could potentially be looking to make more deals tonight. We have the Oklahoma City Thunder who have just won the championship and are allegedly aggressively pursuing moves to move up in the draft and they have the ability to add talent. We've got picks that have already been traded, all sorts of interesting stuff. Let's start with you, Carson. Who is the most interesting

team in this draft for you tonight. There's some good ones. I kind of think that you have to look at the team that just has an insane amount of picks though. And that's the Brooklyn Nets. I mean, it is exceedingly rare that you see a team walk into draft day with five first rounders. I can't think of a time that we've ever actually seen a team pick five times in the first round. So whether or not they stand and pick in all these spots remains to be seen. But regardless, like, this is probably a more important night for them in their franchise trajectory than anybody else because you look at the current state of their roster and like their two best assets are two guys who it feels like

everybody's been presuming they try to trade in nick claxon and cam johnson because they just don't totally align with the timeline camp thomas is obviously very talented but he's in that archetype of like low efficiency non-defending mediocre playmaking guard that you generally don't want to build around so feels like this is it this is an opportunity for them to get you get some actual maybe cornerstone talents in, but their highest pick right now is eight. So do they package some of those picks in the later first round, 19, 22, 26, 27 to try to move up? Or do they just say, we're going to put a bunch of shots up today and just try to add a bunch of young talent to our roster? Regardless, I think that this is like a defining night for

their rebuild. And I'm very interested in where they go. I also think there's just a lot of guys in this middle portion of the draft that fill roughly similar archetypes and some guys that I feel like if you were to trade back and in this case a team that would do business with Brooklyn. I think you could find some pretty similar talents as you go further back in the draft as well. So it's kind of set up well for them in that regard. Logan, any Nets takes or any other team that you're particularly interested in tonight? Honestly, if I'm the Nets, I'm going volume shooter mode, Dion Waders. I think I'm just going to throw the kitchen. Yeah, see what happens.

I mean, they've got a ton of roster spots open. That's the other interesting part of them having all these picks is they actually have the roster spots to keep all of them. My most interesting team is probably the San Antonio Spurs just because of what they did this offseason. Well, in the regular season, they acquired Deer and Fox, but they've kind of found themselves in a really lucky spot to be picking number two because I think everybody's talking about Cooper. flag going one to Dallas. Dallas was also very lucky in getting that pick. But San Antonio has found themselves in an opportunity to draft Dylan Harper, who I think is going to be better than Deerrin Fox when he reaches his peak and should be the guard that San Antonio builds around for the future with this new timeline with Wembe. But they don't just have the second pick. They also have

the 14th pick at the end of the lottery, which I think is really fascinating. You know, they could add two more players that fit this new timeline with Wembe. And it's just interesting, right? They You think they accelerate their timeline by going out and getting a guy like Fox. So do they still go with Dylan Harper? I personally think it would be a mistake passing up on him with the number two pick. But they've got an opportunity to add some new young talent to a team that is looking to be competitive and potentially in the playoffs next season. So I'm really interested to see what the Spurs do tonight. Let's stick around on San Antonio for a second because this concept with Dylan Harper is super fascinating to me.

because, you know, Dylan, you know, after we all just watched a big scoring guard that no one can keep from getting to the rim, just lead a team to a championship surrounded by mainly defensive talent and getting, you know, kind of inconsistent offensive support throughout the postseason. We just saw that work. We've seen that concept work. And the idea behind Dylan Harper makes a lot of sense to me. But we also know that he's got some question marks specifically surrounding. in the jump shot, whether or not that release needs to be refined, quickened up a little bit

to turn into something that he can actually use as a counter to his downhill force. And I look at the spurs at large, and Victor Wembenyama presents this predicament because he's ready to contend right now. He's ready to compete for championships right now. And so with that being the case, how do you actually go about balancing the timeline here? Because when you look at Deere and Fox, when you look at some of the role player talent, how do you make this all work? Like what would you do if you're San Antonio in that case? I would just prioritize the best talent.

I think that that's Dylan Harper. Like I do agree with you. You want to prioritize this short term window, but you also need to prioritize the long term window. And your move to prioritize the short term window was going out there and getting Deerran Fox. So for the short term, yeah, that is the guy who is apparently going to get you into these playoff conversations.

Obviously, the spurs aren't going to. going to contend without dramatic roster improvements. But like Logan said, I just think the talent is too good to pass up on. And he's not perfect. You mentioned some of the questions about the outside shot, the pull-up shooting. But like to find a guy who gets to the rim at the rate he does, who gets to the line at the rate he does, who makes 68% of his shots at the rim and then is also such a gifted passer

and has the measurables that he does at like almost 6-5 with a 6-10 wingspan. I just think there is so much ability there. that sort of like dominant downhill guard is so supremely valuable, especially to pair alongside a stretch big like a Wembe and a guy who can manufacture some more looks around the rim for Wembe, too, with his interior passing. That's where I lean on the side of just get the guy you think can be an actual cornerstone for you long term because I don't really think De Aaron Fox is that. I think he's very good, but he's like not a top 30 player right now.

Dylan Harper is a guy who, yeah, it's always going to be less of a known commodity when you're talking about drafting a prospect, but the ceiling is higher there. So I wouldn't concern myself too much with the timeline because what's the move that they're going to make that's really going to accelerate this timeline other than like a Janus trade, which that's not going to happen.

It doesn't look like. Well, that's the key is there's no urgency to actually make that decision tonight. As we have our number one pick actually coming in as we speak, you can absolutely take Dylan Harper into camp and then be like, oh, he's four or five years away from being ready to play real serious winning basketball. We have to look to move him.

Or you can bring him in and go like, Deeran's kind of struggling as a fit with this anyway. Dylan's playing pretty well. Let's make some move to try to balance more towards the younger side of things. And that's the thing is that it's the talent play within the draft. I'm more just looking in the future whether or not that's a pivot they're going to have to make. Well, Cooper Flagg is officially a Dallas Maverick. I am particularly excited, even though this roster makes a whole lot of no sense at this point in terms of imbalance and the lack of ball handling and the five starting players that could all play at the four or the five. But the biggest thing that I'm most excited about with Cooper Flag is just watching him play defense alongside Anthony Davis.

I think one of the most unique things about Cooper Flag is that he's basically closer to his ceiling than the vast majority of 18-year-olds that you'll ever encounter playing basketball. and he is kind of uniquely equipped to be a number one overall pick for a team like Dallas because I was actually talking about this on the radio earlier today. You look at these guys that come into the draft like Jonathan Kaminga and it's like, man, he just desperately needs to go somewhere he can be bad and like slowly learn how to play basketball at his own pace. If you did that to Cooper, he would go insane. Like he couldn't go be bad for a long time.

That's not, he is ready to play competitive winning basketball in a dead serious environment right now. And I think that that lines up pretty well with what Nico Harrison is trying to do. And so I'm particularly excited, even if it looks a little clunky at first and even if they end up having to make some roster balancing trades, I'm super excited. And one of the unique pieces of the Kyrie Irving injury is it kind of buys a little time early in the season to lean into Cooper more as a ball handler, which I think is something that is still even an area of opportunity for Cooper to get better. And I think it's just such natural feel for the game. It's just something I'm super excited about. Let's kick to Jackson for a second.

Jackson, what are your thoughts on Cooper going to the Dallas Mavericks? I think that he, I think for the short term, it's definitely a little awkward. The fact that they have PJ Washington, Cooper Flagg, Anthony Davis, Daniel Gafford, and Derek lively. And you're presumably only getting three of those guys on the court. at the same time. But long term, it's awesome. I mean, I'm extremely as high on Cooper flag as everybody else is. I do think his best position eventually will be power forward.

So that is kind of like how quickly does that happen for them on that roster is, I think, a big question because I, you know, both because offensively his, at least for right now, his jumper is probably his worst quality and it's not even that bad, but it's probably his worst quality offensively. And defensively, I think you want him as more. of a roamer playmaker type, which you probably won't be able to have to do if he's guarding small forwards. So that's sort of the only, like, when does that pivot happen? I think is the only sort of question for Dallas and for his development. But I completely agree that he is, it's crazy

how ready he is. It seems like how ready he is considering that he also moved up a grade. Like it's one thing to be ready as a three-year college player, even as a freshman who was sort of one of those like 20-year-old rookies, right? He is a child, basically. basically as 18. He should not even be in the NBA this coming season. And he, it feels like by all accounts, he's going to be ready to make an impact right away. Oh, yeah. I, I, uh, the, that's specifically a trait that we've noticed with Cooper over the course of the last three, four years is just every time you put him into a, a higher leverage situation. He's like the dude who gets promoted into jobs that he's not theoretically ready for,

but like he just ends up owning it and leaning into it and kicking ass. Like he's just, he's been putting a bunch of really tough spots. He, like, straight up competed with NBA players over the summer in the Olympics prep. I've been super, super impressed by him. Logan, what are your thoughts on Cooper flagged to Dallas? I want to touch on something Jackson just mentioned with their roster construction. I think Dallas is in a really enviable position. You know, you're talking about that kind of clogged up front court that Dallas has and we're talking about them not having ball handlers. One, which you just mentioned, Jason, I think it's going to be really good for Cooper and his development

just to get those reps and that experience as a primary ball handler where he wouldn't. And I think he's going to fit in seamless as an off ball score once that opportunity presents itself. But there's never a problem having this much talent because ultimately Dallas gets to flip these guys for whatever they want. I think the long term answer like you guys have mentioned, flag at the four, AD at the five. I think it's the best. And just easiest fit for switchability for spreading out the offense to maximize both sides of the ball. So flip Gafford and PJ Washington. I mean, that seems like the most logical thing that we're going to see. Extended effort, though, for three years, 60 million.

Well, that means that they can't trade him in a clearification on that front, that it's like actually 54 and that the other six million are unlikely incentives. And so his contract is still tradable. I'm not 100% sure about that, but I believe he is still tradable. But anyway, go ahead. And I think that's the answer. I think you flip these. They're very valuable commodities and they're expendable to you now that you have Cooper

Flag and AD. Like, they lucked out in this situation. but I think they're going to be, I think they're going to have a really easy time flipping these guys into assets that they need because I think a lot of teams should be interested in what PJ Washington brings to the table, what Gafford brings to the table. And now for the future, you've got Flagg and Lively who are one hell of a front court duo and you've got AD and Kyrie who can help you win now. I just think, and Clay too. I think the Mavs have lucked out. And I think they're going to have an easier time than some people are expecting filling out the rest of this roster. So let's start here, Carson. I'm going to kick it to you like this. it's like the scene from the dark night where the Joker breaks the pool cue in half and hands it to the two dudes. Both Cooper and AD want to play power forward. Who ends up winning the battle for power forward in Dallas? It should be flagged at the four and AD at the five. I know that AD has this obsession with playing the four,

but I just think he is so much more effective offensively when he can play in that spaced out environment and he's not forced to play from the perimeter more. and then defensively, this guy has shown a million times over that he's more than capable of being an elite anchor at the five. So I totally agree with what Logan was saying. I think it should be a flag at the four and 80 at the five. And that's going to be one of the best defensive duos in basketball immediately. Even when they go flag at the 3 AD at the 4 and one of these bigs at the 5, like, is there outside of Oklahoma City going to be a better defense in basketball next year than Dallas? I don't think so.

like that length, that size, that rebounding, that aggregate rim protection in the front court, it is stupid. And Flagg obviously has all the mobility to guard on the perimeter. He's most impactful as that helper and roamer, but just a freak all around talent, man. I totally agree with you, Jason, when you say he is uniquely well equipped, even for a number one overall pick, even for a number one overall pick of this caliber to immediately slide in and be like that do it all wing for a team that wants to continue. 10 because he checks all the boxes. He has the feel offensively. He has the off ball

scoring. He has the transition. He has the ball handling and playmaking and doses at the very least. And then defensively, he's going to be so insanely impactful. The guy's just a winner. The floor is crazy high. And the ceiling is really high too. But it's that floor that is immediately going to be so impactful. I think it'll be a top 50 player as a rookie. And that's a dream for Dallas. Yeah, to your point, we've seen number one overall picks like Anthony Edwards who are bona fide number one overall types of talent that have that has come to fruition over time. But aunt would have been a terrible option in Dallas as a rookie. He would have been such a poor fit. You know, he's so undisciplined off ball as a defender and so

screenable on ball and all that kind of stuff. Cooper can right away like Cooper could legitimately start for any team in the NBA tomorrow. Like he's so he's so a versatile positionally. I do agree with all the points that Jackson's making essentially that like when you play the three instead of the four. There's additional responsibility defensively on the perimeter to navigate screens. And there's more, there's a clunky or spacing in the sense that you're putting to bigger, slower, less skilled players in front of him in the front court. And so I think that's ultimately where it goes. But what'll probably end up happening is it'll be Anthony Davis in one center and they'll have two big looks that they use and they kind of oscillate back and forth between the two,

but then they'll close games routinely with Cooper and AD at the five when the time comes. Our number two overall pick is in. Dylan Harper has gone to the San Antonio Spurs. So we conceptualized this idea that San Antonio, even though they're making the talent play here, going for the best player available. And I had Sam Vassini on the show on Tuesday, and Sam had talked about how he sees a substantial drop off from number two to number three moving forward in the draft from this point in terms of just, you know, risk associated with some of these guys reaching their top end. But there is a window of opportunity for San Antonio over time to continue to pivot to make changes along the way. They have another pick coming later in the first round. So my question

for you, we'll go to you, Logan. If you're keeping Dylan in the short term, how does this work in terms of the basketball trying to work alongside Fox, alongside Victor Wimbunyama, in this system? It's the question after you make this pick. Me and Carson have talked about this recently on a couple of our draft shows, but all three of these guys are in the exact same archetype. And that's what makes it hard to make it viable with all of them. They're all downhill guards who need the ball in their hands. And you've got questions maybe about Castle's jumper.

You've got questions about Harper's jumper. To me, it's kind of what you were saying before we got this thing started, Jason. I think you're probably going to have to pick the guy that you're going to rock with long term. at some point in this season and move off of one of these guards. I think the odd man out is Deer and Fox. And it's nothing against Fox. I think he's a very talented player. I think he's a,

I think it was a good move for San Antonio to do what they did last season. Like, I think it made sense. But I like Harper and Castle's long-term upside more. I think that they're going to be ready to go and win quicker than people expect. And I just think those are the guys that I'd rather build around. I think Fox, as much as we can look at the raw numbers, I think Fox has his own flaws, if it's defensively really being committed. And you know what? I'll give him some grace with that,

right? He was in Sacramento. That's not the best situation. I think St. Antonio, he can be committed to actually working on that end. But Fox doesn't get downhill as much as he used to. I cited this stat on our last show. His rim attempts have halved since the peak that they were at in 2020. He's so relying on that jumper. I just don't think he's. he's as impactful as he could be if he really weaponized his athletic traits to the fullest. So to answer your question, Jason, I don't really know how it's viable with all three of these guys. I don't think it really works right now. I think it's going to be clunky and you're going to have to pick who you go with. But I don't think you can pass up Dylan Harper. And I'm just higher on Harper

and Castle long term than Fox. So to me, Fox would be the odd man out. I think Fox is the odd man out because of it. feels like Castle also is the one who needs the ball in his hands the least. It feels like he could fit the best alongside either of the of Harper or Fox. So he feels like he's squarely as part of their core unless that you know there's a Janus trade. But I also, I think that it'll, I think it'll be really interesting to see what happened in the first half of this season. Because if they're good right away, if they're like, okay, we're above 500 immediately, then it's kind of hard to move off of Dair and Fox.

But if they're kind of around 500 or and then if the bucks sort of aren't as good and the Yannis trade becomes more available than it seems like it is right now, I actually think Fox could be an interesting player in a trade for Yonis. If the Bucks end up making a move like that because the Bucks don't own their picks for a few years, they need to be semi not terrible. And so Dierrin Fox would at least, along with a bunch of other picks, obviously, so it's not just Derek Fox, would sort of accomplish that better than Harper or Castlewood? There are some numbers with Harper specifically with unguarded catch and shoot shooting that are good.

It's part of the reason why I'm encouraged about his ability to become a better jump shooter. We've seen this archetype so many times in the past where the dude who is the ball handler can knock down off the dribble jump shots, but he can't hit off the catch because he just never practiced off the catch in his entire childhood. he had to create every shot for everybody. There's never an opportunity for him to, like, really learn how to be an off-ball catch-and-shoot player. Dylan Harper is kind of the exact opposite where he's an on-ball player, but his shot releases so in front of his face and it's a little drawn out and it's a little hitchy.

And so off the dribble, his energy transfer is poor and every shot looks a little different, and so he's not very consistent there. But then when he's wide open and catch-and-shoots situations, he hit over half of his threes this here, which is a sign of a very good punch in those sorts of situations. So that's going to be really the key is whether or not he can actually figure out the off ball piece

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Go to viztv.com to find your cable channel. Hey, it's us to Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, name? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast.

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Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast.

But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman,

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ball attacking closeouts. I think we've seen flashes of him cutting. So obviously, this is a guy who is primarily going to play with the ball in his hands. That's where he's at his most lethal. But I do think there are some positive indicators. is for him being solid offball. And then in terms of the pull-up jumper, I agree with you.

I also do think that we've definitely seen that the shock creation ability, the ability to create space, the footwork, the stepbacks, like, that's all there. So it's really just the mechanics and the consistency of the pull-up jumper itself. But, man, he just does so much that I love.

Yeah, the fit is definitely weird. One of these three guards is going to be gone. I would be fine with it being either Fox or Castle. I'm not as high on Castle as some, maybe. even though I do like him, I just think there's still a lot of questions there. You make a good point, Jackson, in that he is the guy who is going to do the most things to impact the game without the ball being an elite rebounding guard talent, having the defensive potential that he does.

But until he becomes a dramatically better catch and shooter, if he ever becomes that, like you're still going to have some questions about playing him off ball and what kind of value he can deliver there. But Harper's the guy who I'm going all in on. Like, again, just this level of rim pressure finish. foul drawing, playmaking, protecting the basketball at the level he does. I think he'll become an average pull-up shooter and a solid overall jump shooter. And if he gets there, you're looking at an all-star.

You're looking at a guy who maybe could be on the fringes of all NBA conversations. And there's not another talent like that in this class after obviously flagged. The shooting is actually easy. We did just get our first chams, our first shams report here. And then the pick was in as well that the sixers are keeping the pick and they're drafting VJ Edge. Right on. So no trade, no trade to get off of Paul George.

Really quickly, Carson, before we move on to Vijay, the separation is the more important piece. There are a lot of guys you can shoot in the NBA and they can't get to their spots. And like, I mean, if we haven't seen that on display in this postseason, like the guys that can get to their spots against athleticism and physicality is just so valuable. And the touch is there, the footworks there, the handles there. He's just got to improve his, you know, energy transfer from the ground up a little bit quicker, a little bit crisper. shoot the ball up a little bit more instead of out so far and I think you'll put it all together. I think that potential is there. So VJ Edgecombe to the Philadelphia 76ers, a team that already has Jared McCain and Tyrese Maxie. Logan, what's your take on getting this, you know, obviously

not an on ball guard, but a guy who plays, in my opinion, at the NBA level of two to fit inside the Sixers big picture plans? So I'll preface this by saying, I agree with whoever said there's a little bit of a drop off between two and three. But I still love Vijay Edgecombe. The question marks with him is going to be how great he can be in the half court and what he does for your spacing. He shot 43% on unguarded catch-and-shoot jumpers. So I think there is shooting upside. I don't hate his stroke.

I think he's going to be a good shooter one day. But like you mentioned, he does everything else at such a high level that I'm confident he's going to have a winning impact where defensively, I think he's going to be a problem. He's a supreme athlete. The dude has springs attached to his shoes, just ridiculous bounce where I think he's going to be a really good transition score. And then the big thing is defense and rebounding, a tremendous rebounder for a guard. And so when I look at what the Sixers have right now, I just think they're in best player

available mode. I'm going to be honest, I'm not super optimistic about Philadelphia being competitive in this window whatsoever. you guys know me. I gave up on Joel M. Bede a long time ago. I'm pretty much out on Paul George. So I don't think that Philadelphia really has a real opportunity to compete in the East unless everything falls their way. So I think they should take the best player available. And I do think that's Edgecombe, but I do think he can do some winning things for them. They've got the scoring punch with Embed. Theoretically, if Paul George returns to, you know, what he can be, he could be a

solid three. Maxie is a beast. He's a score. So it's like you don't need more scoring punch. You need guys who can do the little things. And I think Edgecombe can immediately do that, but does have long-term All-Star upside with his athletic profile. I'm concerned about him being an on-ball creator and score. That's not really his role to me. I think he's going to be a really good closeout attacker and off ball score. I think that's more his role cutting, relocating, dribble handoff stuff like that. But I think you kind of get the best of both worlds with VJ. I think that he can give you a little bit of a winning impact now with the little things that he does, but he does have All-Star upside long term for Philadelphia.

Yeah, you know, after what we just, I agree. No, I was going to say I agree, but the question for their future, I think, is what, like, how does the, you know, these three small guards all fit together. VJ is the biggest and he's a super athlete, he's long arms, but Maxie is small and McCain is small, which is why you're probably not saying those two are back court of the future,

just those two. But considering how good McCain was before he got hurt, he was unbelievable before he got hurt. And so it is a little bit of like, how do these three players fit in two spots kind of? Because I don't think Vijay, we'll see, but I don't think VJ's athleticism is enough to make up for him only being sick.

four in terms of playing the three alongside those guys. But overall, I do think he's probably, I agree that he was the third best player in the draft. So I think you got to just go best player. I do think he's a very, real quick. Would you, would you slot McCain in at the sixth man spot? I feel like that's kind of the logical. I would.

I do. It does feel like he's the sixth man there, like from a long term perspective. And it feels like his game is kind of sixth manny. But it's, it's a little, that will be the big question for their, for their second of the timeline, not the two, two small guards that are looking. to score the basketball can't really share the floor in a serious big picture context. And maybe that's a big picture of the decision they have to make with respect to Tyrese maxi. I think VJ is a player I'm particularly excited about after having watched this last postseason

and we just see how important it is to have a guard who can guard his position, but also guard up a little bit. They can cover ground in rotation, crack down, rebound, fly up and down the floor in transition. I actually do think VJ's got some high level closeout attacking moves that he will be able to access over the years. we've seen flashes of it, you know, a Euro step there, turn around fade away here. I, after we just watched Aaron Neesmith fill a very valuable role for an Indiana Pacers team that made it deep into the postseason, you know, one win away from the championship and be

like downright super impactful at stretches. Now Aaron's bigger. But I think that, I think that Edgecombe kind of just fits that mold to do everything wing in the NBA at the two guard spot. He just has to fit into the two guard spot. What's your take, Carson? I agree. I think that short term, long term, this is the,

the right pick. This is just the best talent on the board and kind of something of a life raft for Philly. I still think that they're in a tough spot. But this was the safest pick. This is the guy who, yeah, can do things to contribute now in that all around wing archetype that you're talking about, Jason. I mean, he's like a uniquely good offensive rebounding guard, great springiness and really good feel. Like you see the connective passing that's exciting for a guy who's going to be playing for a team that ostensibly, if they're healthy, is trying to win. And he's going to be in a scale down role, but I think that suits him because of the close out attacking, because of the shooting off the catch. And then defensively, he's good defending at the point of attack. He's

really good forcing steals. He's pretty darn good as a rim protecting guy for his size. So he's going to make plays in every phase of the game, going to get to the rim a hell of a lot. And yeah, there are things that he needs to refine. Got to be more efficient as a finisher. He shot 44% on layups. So that's obviously not going to cut it. And then I do think that you want to see the handle. You want to see the pull-up shooting, improve for sure in terms of his long-term upside, but that's not really going to be his role in the short term. He's going to be trying to do those winning things, and I think that he can do that.

But I do really like him. I think he is a real quality starter with fringe star kind of upside and just a really good all-around wing prospect for a team that desperately needs that. If you're in a position like Philly's in, where you're kind of old and banged up in your star core, you want to be anchored by younger players that can play smaller roles and athletes. And that's, VJ just crosses all of those boxes. And then you add the legitimate upside that he has.

And again, like, I don't, I'm with you guys. I don't think he's going to be some, you know, super high volume on ball guard. I think that's unlikely at this point. But there is some upside there with his athleticism. You can, I've said this about Jalen Green. I've said this about Jonathan Minga. It's really hard for me not to bet on like legitimate A plus athletes. And that's not to say that guys like Green or Camingo would be much better off in the NBA

if they were to embrace more of a Vijay Edgecombe role player type of archetype. But there is legitimate upside in a player that can get to his spots. The number four pick is in, in the Charlotte Hornets, taking Concanipple from Duke, big shooter, off ball scoring weapon, underrated defensive player. On a team that has a lot of guys that like to have the ball in their hands, it seems like it makes a lot of sense. Jackson, what's your take on Khan going to Charlotte? I think he has a lot of NBA ready skills.

Is he ready for the NBA? I don't know. He has a lot of NBA ready skills. And in that sense, I thought he would have been actually a good fit with Philly as well. And the Hornets feel like they're a long ways away from being a relevant basketball team. But I do think he's very solid watching him and, you know, his sort of archetype of white shooter type player, they're not as commonly six-seven. So the fact that he's 6-7, I think, goes a long way. I like his patience offensively.

He does a lot of that playing off two feet, pump faking. It's not Jalen Brunson really ish, but it has some sort of similar. Once he gets his feet in the pain, he's going to be very patient, make the right play. I think he has a lot of, I think he's going to be a really impactful winning basketball player, I think. And I think he's sort of, you know, with his basketball family, it feels like he's a little bit more of an adult than some of the other. guys on the Hornets roster and guys of their, you know, guys I like to draft. So from that sense, I think it's a good fit for them. It's a little high.

This feels like a, yeah, this feels like a really safe pick for Charlotte. Carson and I did our mock draft not that long ago and we mocked his Duke teammate, Malewatch to the Hornets, which I thought made more sense. I guess the Hornets are holding on to this Mark William stock and they think he's going to be their big man of the future is what I glean from this. Like I, yeah, yeah, like Carmel. Anthony Atlanta Hawks legend. I think Canuple's really solid. I think he is an uber talented off ball score the way this guy finds space. He is constantly moving and relocating.

Great when the defender turns his back to him and cutting off of that, coming off screens, some of the go screen stuff he does pick and popping. And he's a really good spot up player. An elite catch and shooter, I think he's got tremendous coordination and footwork. And he's got a quick trigger. He shot 41% in the mid-range, just under 41% from deep. He shot 91% from the line and had a true shooting percentage of 64%. Like, the guy's got elite touch. And I think he's got a little bit more on-ball juice than some people give him credit for. Now, he's not like special there, but I think he's got a little bit of juice there. He's slow and methodical. I'll say that. You know, he's not got a lot of pop, but he's crafty. He's got some change in pace. In college, it was

quickness against Bigs and then strength against smaller defenders. And, you know, he's got pump fakes, rip-throughs. I think he's got a little bit of feel out of pick and roll. So I think there's some upside there. And then the fit here, yeah, another good shooter off ball for La Mello ball. I just, my thing with this pick, again, it's very safe. I think Knoppel is going to be a good, solid NBA player. I come back to two questions with the Hornets.

Who to hell is going to play defense for them? And why they keep passing up rock solid defensive prospects. I liked clinging last year, and I really liked Malu Watch this year for them. It's just getting a defensive anchor. So I like the pick, but I don't love it, certainly. Yeah, I think that safe is a good word for it. I think that Kahn is an extremely high floor offensive player. Like, he's a top two shooter in the class,

and he knows how to weaponize that. You guys have mentioned if it's screening for other guards, if it's relocating. And he really knows how to leverage that shooting threat, too. Like, this is a guy who playing off the catch, playing coming around to screen. is capable of knocking down those two-point jumpers, getting into the lane, playing off two feet,

like you mentioned, Jackson. And yeah, he does have pretty solid passing feel. There's a lot that you know is going to translate offensively. Is the ceiling high enough, though, when you're looking at now a defensive backcourt of Lamello ball and Conneppel, like I don't like that long term. Now, the one thing that they have is solid size as a back court, but still like Kineppel, 6-5 with an even wing span,

basically slow feet. I do think he's a high IQ effort defender. I just think that there are some core physical limitations there where you see him struggling to navigate screens, where you see him susceptible to blowbys. And then Lamello is very problematic defensively. So the couple guys who you could have argued if they were going to take a perimeter player are probably higher risk in like a Trey Johnson or an Ace Bailey because those are guys where you might question the shot selection. With Tray Johnson, I think that you definitely have the same issues about a defensive backcourt, if not more so, trying to put him alongside Lamello. I do think the offensive ceiling is higher for him. I really conflicted on Ace Bailey. I'm not a big fan of his. And so for that

reason, I can't be overly critical. Like Logan was saying, I would have taken Malu Watch here, but I'm a lot higher on Mollawwatch than most. It's not super common that you're seeing him mock number four right now. I think he could have been a really nice anchor big for them defensively when they already kind of have their franchise guard and franchise wing and Lamello and Brandon Miller if those guys can stay healthy and refine some stuff. That would have been where I had gone. I can't hate this pick. It's just a little high for me. I don't think the ceiling is quite there. We've seen this archetype, this kind of like big shooter who's not very mobile, succeed in the NBA, but they have to be very good playmakers and they have to be very smart defenders. Joe Ingalls is a guy that

comes to mind for me as a guy that has kind of been like this just big smart wing that's not overly fast, but because he has size, size is half the battle. And this is kind of the thing with Luca Donchich that I've been complaining about over the last couple years. Like when you're big and you don't have to be the fastest dude in the world and you can be a useful defensive player as long as you're smart and you're committed. And so those are just going to be the things that they have to watch with his development. It's just his ability to make decisions coming off of screening actions. if he's a high-level playmaker in those situations, he will be a useful offensive player

and then obviously the positional defense. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, new? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it.

We just contributed to a first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band.

Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey, Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast.

But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. Help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

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Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The number five pick is in. Ace Bailey, no slippage, no, no falling deep back into the draft. The Utah Jazz are taking Ace Bailey at number five. Anybody got some snap judgments for this one? It's interesting. I would have slightly preferred Trey Johnson here. I do think that I'm more confident in his offensive skill set translating.

I just think he's such an elite shooter and he really knows how to weaponize it and he's a super effective shooter off the dribble. That being said, like, with Ace Bailey, you absolutely have to see the upside. And the upside is not what some people have advertised. It's not the next Kevin Durant, right? He is not that level of shock creator whatsoever.

He's not that level of ball handler. He's not that level of rim pressure. He's very limited as a ball handler. He plays pretty stiff and upright and he really doesn't get to the rim. And he doesn't handle the ball very well. And he doesn't play well through physicality. and you can really force him into taking a lot of tough shot after tough shot when he is trying to initiate.

Not to mention, he's a very bad passer and a very selfish player fundamentally. So for all those reasons, that's not going to be his role. Garts, it's not like you were describing. You were listing off the side effects of the medication. But what if the medication could also be like Michael Porter Jr. Offensively with plus defense? Because that's going to be the mold for Ace to succeed. It's going to be embracing a scale down roller where it's just okay.

I am 6-8 and I am one of the most gifted shot makers on the planet. I'm going to do it coming around screens, off contest, off the catch. I'm going to be an effective cutter because he's a really good above the rim athlete. He doesn't have that like functional burst to get value off the bounce. But as an above the rim athlete, he is impressive. And that's where defensively seven foot wingspan, very good positional rebounder. The stock rates are impressive. If he buys into that knock down threes and play my run,

role defensively role. This can be a really impactful player. My concern with Ace is all the indications are he thinks that he is the next Kevin Durand. He goes out and he says maybe that's a bad shot for you. You don't practice that shot. I practice that shot. He's turning down workouts with teams. That to me is very concerning when like the whole appeal with the guys, the talents there if he sees the vision and plays the right role. And he doesn't seem to be seeing the vision or playing the right role. So I would have preferred Trey Johnson here if I'm Utah. To Carson's point, like when their agents are actually out and about, like, telling everybody he wants to be the score. And he's openly admitting it. It's, it's just, there was some risk for him sliding

and he didn't slide at the end of the day. And I'm with you. Like, the big thing for me is I've just seen this archetype a lot over the years, which is like the big, lanky athlete, like in terms of measurables, like height and wingspan, but that just brings almost no physicality to the position. It's, it's brutal. Like, that, that's the thing. Like, you, with a Michael Porter Jr. It's a perfect example. Like he has to come clean off of a screen because he's not the kind of guy

that's going to bump a defender off to get separation or fight for his spot in terms of physical positional strength. I was using this example with San Vecini the other day, but like he, when he spins into his like turnarounds, like a physical big will bump with that right shoulder and just shoot a turnaround jumper.

No, like Ace is turning into this wild stepback, one-legged crazy shot because he's not attacking with physicality in those moves. And so I'm more worried about the physical tools just not being as valuable as they look on paper. I'm going to put on my Bill Simmons fake conspiracy hat just for one moment. I am wondering if Adam Sliber was like Charlotte, Washington, Brooklyn, you guys can't draft it. We cannot let this behavior be successful. You cannot let this tank the drafts workouts. I want to go to these three teams only you guys cannot take him.

So someone else must take him. And they exiled him to Salt Lake City. I think it's hilarious that he's going to start. Mr. I want to be a superstar. Sign me up for superstar class. And they said go to Salt Lake City. Welcome to Utah. Yeah.

And then is there a Lori Marketing trade lined up or something? Like that's the other thing too because it kind of felt like he was trying to shoehorn his his kind of situation to a place where he can have the basketball in his hands and he's going to be fighting for it with Keontay George and Colin Sexton and Lori Markinen and all these guys. I just don't, I don't really see the natural fit, but at the same time, maybe it's a bet on the culture and like, hey, we bring him in here and we'll convince him, hey, you're not getting the ball. So you better work on these other things. So maybe that's the move. I'm not entirely sure. Any thoughts, Logan? I mean, you said the two words. I saw your breakdown

the other day, Black hole. I mean, that's what scares me is, uh, You know, Alex Caruso had a really good quote. I couldn't think of a more different player from the guy like Ace Bailey, but Caruso says teams are looking for a guy to clean the bathrooms, not a CEO. And to me, it's just a fundamental misunderstanding of what teams are looking for. And so the upside's all there. But my mom told me if I ain't got nothing nice to say, I ain't going to say it. So I ain't got a ton nice to say about Ace.

I see the upside. I think he needs to get his head screwed on. straight. The beauty of going to a place like Utah, though, is I like their system. I like their coach. And there's at least, I feel like a little more structure with a Utah than if he would go to one of these other destinations if it's a Brooklyn. So the talent's there. It's all mental with Ace Bailey. The talent is all there. It's all about if he can, his willingness to play a role and his cerebralness, like his commitment to playing smart basketball. Yeah, I do want to be clear. like, I think you've got to, I don't think this is a disaster pick. Like, I understand.

We're focusing on the negatives here. I had Ace Bailey six on my board. So obviously, the intangibles are going to be a huge deciding factor for him here. But the talent is definitely one of the best on the board. I would have preferred Trey Johnson. But like Ace Bailey's talent is better than Concanepbles. The ceiling is significantly higher. And Lord knows Utah needs talent. I mean, they really don't have any foundation for their rebuild right now. It's Walker Kessler. And we'll see what like Taylor Hendricks and Isaiah Collier and Kyle Philopowski, like they don't have any of those real upper echelon talents. And Ace Bailey at least could be that for them. It's an upside play. I'm with you on that. I, Tray Johnson was my favorite player that I watched in my draft prep.

He has this like kind of unique combination of size for the position, but shooting ability mixed with like all the things that I think you need to naturally be a good score, which is like kind an audacity or a confidence, a creativity in terms of the, you know, different dribble combinations and footwork pieces that he's added to his game. And then also just like the ability to kind of adjust angles and be, you know, fluid on the ball in order to be that type of score. And like I like the shots that he takes more within the context of an NBA offense. Like I'm fully okay with Trey Johnson leading a bench shoot it and coming off of a ball screen and him having a drop coverage big too far back and him

taking a pull at three. That to me is a good NBA shot for a good shooter in the same way that like 70% of the shots that you see Ace Bailey take when he has the ball in his hands, you're like this feels like a wasted possession in many cases. And so like the dirty little secret about those shots, those super super tough shots is you really only want to take them in the last few seconds of the shot clock or like in a switching scheme, playoff tight in. you got a good matchup against a smaller player against a switch and you go to a turnaround fade away but closer to the basket where it's more reliable there's just a lot of as tray johnson has just been picked by washington like to me tray represents like real NBA offense in the form of an

aggressive score like his his ability to hit up pull pull up threes coming off of action his ability to hit three's running off of off ball action both moving to his right and moving to his left adding some of that scoring flare. I still think with Trey, my biggest like hang up with Trey, and I shouldn't even say hang up. It's just something I think he's got to work on, but I believe he will, is he's just a little bit rushed right now

by the speed of the game. And I think that once he figures out that like change of pace and using physicality and strength to set guys up for screens and then like moving in these quicker, shorter bursts that kind of manifests in these shots, I think that'll help him be better at getting separation. We saw in the Xavier game that he kind of just got lock and trailed out of the game. And so there's a certain amount of like just like additional veteran savvy that he can add to become even better.

But to me, he just makes sense as a off ball score right away in the NBA and then a potential on ball score, depending on how some of his specific fundamentals run out. I think Trey's the best score in the draft. I mean, I really like what he put on tape. My only concern on top of what you said, Jason, he was sub-60% in field goal attempts at the rim, so I think he needs to become a better rim finisher. But the guy has phenomenal touch. I mean, at all three levels.

And I think some of the percentages are a little bit misleading because I think the difficulty of some of the shots that he's putting up, like he's a sub-38% shooter in the mid-range, but he's got great touch. All the shots he's taking are tough. The only thing I'd add on to what you were saying, too, is I'd love to. his back to the basket in his post game too. Trey showed a little bit of that too. He was an 86 percentile post score last season. So I just think he's got a really high floor and I think there's some real upside to tap into. Like you were saying, I just, I'm more confident that Trey is going to be

a reliable player than Ace. I just think the floor is higher there than he's going to step in. He's going to get you buckets. I think he's the best score in the draft. I also mocked him to Utah, but I really like this pick for Washington. They're, uh, I don't know what to make of the middleton mccallum like i think i'm glad they have some veterans in there yeah it's it's interesting it's very interesting i'm glad they've got some veterans in the room but uh i really do like this pick for washington i like trey a lot i like this a lot too go jack i like it too i was this is almost i feel like this is the first time in a while i've been like okay Washington seems to be doing some of the right things i think getting off the jordan pool thing was smart i think not to see jim

not they're going to make the playoffs or anything but i do feel like you got sarr now you got tray johnson And why not see what that looks like with some veterans who can try to, because a lot of NBA players talk about the lack of vets across the league. And now maybe they got too many. They got three of them all of a sudden. But I do feel like the situation all of a sudden feels a little more thought out there. And I feel like it's a better, a better environment for some of these younger, raw players like Sarr and Johnson.

Yeah. And he's an extremely gifted score. Like he is definitely the most intriguing offensive talent in Washington. to now by far, but they do have some other pieces you like, right? Obviously, Sarr with his two-way potential, Kula Bali with his two-way potential, but they need somebody who can kind of break the game open offensively. Well, yeah, I like Bob, but like we're talking about a different level of a talent here with Trey Johnson. I think that you said it, Jason. I mean, just an elite off ball score. Best shooter in the class, in my opinion. Not often you see a guy knocked down 40%

of his seven and a half three-point attempts per game and everything indicates that this is a legitimately elite shooter, the free throw shooting, but it's the ability to do it off the catch, off screens, in transition, off movement, off the dribble with the step back, like lethal, lethal, lethal jump shooter, knows how to weaponize it. And if you're comparing him to an ace, like this is a guy who, yes, has a very score first mentality. He is a score for sure. But he can make the basic reads, the pocket passes, he can find the roller, he can actually occasionally make some skip passes for you and some laydown passes. So like, he's much more effective weaponizing his scoring threat, even though he is still a basic playmaker. He's still definitely

jacked up some tough shots and definitely I agree with you, Logan, about the rim finishing. Also, I'm not optimistic about his defense. Like, he has decent enough tools at 6-6 with a 6-10 wingspan, but a lot of bad defensive effort and lapses in focus and really brought you no defensive playmaking at the college level. So I think he is going to be a negative. defender, but not like a terribly negative defender. I just think like kind of below average for sure. But you can see him having that great offensive impact that justifies him being picked here because I think that the ceiling is absolutely there.

And even the floor offensively, just with that shooting is pretty high. With the playmaking piece, like this is another difference to me between him and Ace Bailey where it's like with Ace, you're basically like, hey dude, I know you're posting in the left block, but can you please like look at the floor and see what's happening around you? and try to find a read there. Whereas because Trey Johnson takes real NBA shots that you see real NBA scores regularly take, like the kinds of shots that you'd be comfortable

with them taking at any point really in the shot clock, because he takes a lot of those shots, you can really lay out basic reads for him. Like, hey, dude, look at the tape. When you come off the screen and they're at the level, that literally means the pocket is open every single time. You know, like you can teach him like these kind of basic reads and, you know, especially with him being surrounded by,

as many vets as he's been surrounded by. Like you don't think C.J. McCollum can be like, hey, dude, you will make your life easier if you start making this pass. You start making this pass. They won't even show at the level anymore. They'll see if you'll get more open looks. You'll get more of these opportunities. And so to me, Tray Johnson just follows much more of like a proven mold for what works

in the NBA. And I mean, we literally just saw a, uh, a player and Buddy healed get finally moved into a competent five-out system where he was playing with some real talent and being guarded by the second best defender in every in every situation and immediately be useful and like the volume is the key. Like it's not when when everyone knows you're a great shooter and you're still getting seven, seven and a half, threes off a game. Those are the tricks of the trade. Good shooters know how to get open and he knows how to get open in action and I just think there's a lot of like really translatable stuff with him right away. And as far as the defensive end of the floor goes, like we saw

buddy within a system become a useful defender because it's culturally demanded. And that doesn't mean that Trey's going to go to Washington and suddenly learn how to be a great defender, but they are slowly sort of building out some defensive culture with some defensive talent. And again, I'm a big believer that anyone's capable under the right surrounding circumstances. As the number seven pick is in and the New Orleans Pelicans are taking Jeremiah fear. anybody got to take that's exciting i mean definitely very high upside kind of boom or busts because there's a lot that jeremiah fears does need to refine and figure out but he is definitely one of the most dynamic offensive talents in this drafts and i like him going top 10 there are a lot

of people who i think were kind of out on him the point where they didn't see him as a lottery talent i had him eight on my big board so the sales pitch here is basically this is a guard who is going to live in the paint, who has the quickness, who has the physicality, who has the change in pace as a driver, who has the footwork navigating the paint. Fantastic ball handler, nasty hesitation, move really shifty. And then once he gets into that paint, nice floater touch, he's also got a nice little mid-range pull-up game and he gets to the line a ton over six free throw attempts per game. And with all of that rim pressure, he just draws so much defensive attention that he can

play make off at a pretty high level. make the laydown passes and the kickouts and the wraparounds and he can make those adjustments in midair to find his teammates. He can make the occasional skip pass. So really was quite an efficient high volume pick and roll creator. That's everything that you love about the offense. Because when you can just get into the paint like that and make the reeds, that's incredibly appealing to build any offense off of the concerns and the swing factors for him are the three point shot. Just over 28% from deep. That's what he was in high school. as well, but you see the indicators of like elite free throw shooter 85%.

He's got really good touch in the paint from the mid range. He shot 36% off the catch from deep. So that's a better number. And again, he has the space creation. He has all the handling and the footwork to get those shots off. Just has to be more consistent there. The rim finishing also, he only shot 53% at the rim. So you want to see that number improve.

And he was a high turnover guy that I probably attribute a fair bit of, to just him having a crazy offensive load. I also do think, though, sometimes he did make some questionable decisions. And then the defensive issues. I think that that's just a reality whenever you're trying to build around a small guard, six, two and a half of the six five wingspan in today's NBA, like your offensive value has to be so great that it outweighs your defensive issues in an era where everybody is trying to target defensive weak points

and bring those small guards into the action over and over again. And that's a more significant concern than ever before. but the guy doesn't turn 19 until July. He's so talented. And if he just figures that shot out, he's one of the few guys who does have star potential in this class. And for New Orleans, man, what do you have going for you?

Everything's a disaster. Like, you might as well take on the high upside talent. I could see the case for like trying to get a 3-&D guy who I guess could help them win now. But you're not winning now. So I lean on the side of liking this for them. I think Fears is the, I was like to.

Sorry. I think he's the like biggest boom or bust guy in the class. It's funny because like you're reading out kind of the laundry list of the concerns. Like he's a 10th percentile guy protecting the basketball in this draft. He's 16th percentile when finishing at the rim. But you do see the upside. So I think it's a very high risk, high reward play here for New Orleans. But there's legitimate star upside. He's super shifty. I think he's got the best handle in the draft. Great change in pace. It's like taking a, a big uppercut. You know, I think this is a big swing for New Orleans. They're either going to leave themselves susceptible for a nasty counter-knockout punch and maybe lose it all. But like Carson said, I mean, there's no timeline right now. Like, I like them taking the risk and taking a big swing here. I do like fears upside. But there also is a chance where he maybe just doesn't cut it in the league because of his archetype. For me, I am a big fan. And the guy he reminds me most of is a guy who was taken a little bit later. There wasn't as much risk involved,

but Tyree's Maxie, a guy who was lightning quick, and there were a lot of indicators that his jumper was going to be okay, even though the numbers in college weren't that good. And that's what it reminds me of, too, with a mid-range pull-up, the free-throw shooting. Aesthetically, it looks like it should be a good jumper,

and he just didn't hit it at a super high rate in college. So I would just be comfortable betting that his three-point jumper sort of developed in a very similar way, maybe not as good. Maxis has become kind of elite. I don't know if it becomes that good. But he's similar ultra-fast, great change of pace, small point card, that there were some shooting questions, and he figured those out.

Yeah, we've seen, we've been talking so much over the course of the last couple months about dribble penetration and the value, especially against teams that can switch, especially when teams can switch with their big, like Chad Holmgren in the Oklahoma City series is along the way. And, you know, we saw T.J. McPonnell take on a great deal of value because of his ability to get into the paint. I think it's a big part of what made the Cleveland Cavaliers so dynamic this year was the idea that Darius Garland was healthy and he could just get into the paint at will. There are pieces that come attached to that. Darius Garland is an example of a guy who can get into the paint at will and that has all the playmaking, but there have been issues defensively. There have been issues with health. And there have been issues with his ability to actually knock down jump shots when he gets into the postseason. Because inevitably, when you get into the postseason, you just encounter tougher circumstances. So I think that'll old

be the biggest swing factor is that, you know, the shooting, the playmaking, and the defense. But it's, you know, we talk about it with John Morant. We talk about it with a lot of some of these other guys around the league. It's a really strong foundation when you have something that other teams can't really mess with. And if you've got ultimate quickness, the ability to beat your man off the dribble, that brings a great deal of value in the NBA as long as you can build the rest of the construct around that. waiting on pick number eight for the Brooklyn Nets. What the hell are the Brooklyn Nets doing?

I can't believe they didn't trade up. I can't believe they didn't trade up. I would take the best player on the board. That's Malu Watch to me, but I am really high on him. I just think. Trey Claxton, get Mollawalach. I think that Claxton is kind of misaligned with your timeline. He's on a movable contract, I guess.

He didn't have his best season, so it's a little bit on the big side. But I just don't think the Nets are really in a position to be doing anything other than best player available here. Like, who are they really prioritizing and saying, no, we won't draft to replace you if we think that guy's the best talent. And to me, Mala Watch is quite clearly the best talent on the board at this point. I like Bala Watch. This video of Inside the Nets War Room, they seem like.

Super stoked. Yeah, they are, they are crazy how ecstatic they are for the eighth pick. Right, that's for a long night. Like Malu Watch. I like Mollow watch. I'm a Queen, Derek Queen fan. I think he'd be fun there. but I'm a big model watch guys.

I'm a big Derek Queen guy too. I do have some concerns about him defensively. That was what me and Carson talked about, with a lot of teams. We'd like to see him go to a team with like, I'd like to see him go to San Antonio because ideally you'd like to put him at the four alongside a five that can one protect the rim and also space the floor. But I do like Queens game a lot.

He just feels like a bit of a tweener. But I don't know. The Nets seem like they got their guy, whoever it may be. Igor Demmon from BYU. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. The worst pick of the draft so far by far.

I was going to say I haven't even gotten to an eval of Igor yet. I actually like Demon, but that's very hot. I'm very skeptical of, look, Demons got upside, but I have a lot of red flags about Demmon. I mean, primarily like defensively, I think this guy is a weak point where every game I felt like I watched him on tape. He's getting blown by. Somebody's big bodying him.

like he's tall and long and like I see the playmaking upside and the ball handling but he's going to be a primary ball handler that I don't really trust as a score so I think his value is limited there why would I put the ball in the hands of a guy who can't really create advantages for himself and he's going to be a defensive liability I'm not going to lie to you guys I liked demon like as a pick in the 20s um I didn't like him as a pick in the top We're talking about archetypes that you can see succeeding and players who have a path that they can follow and they do things that translate. And to me, this is the epitome of the archetype that people fall in love with every draft cycle and it doesn't work. The big guard who is a super gifted passer but cannot score the basketball and is going to be attacked relentlessly defensively.

Those guys don't succeed as like actual building blocks as a bench ball handler, sure, but there's just way too. much clunkiness there. You can't entrust a guy with being responsible for your offense if you cannot trust him to consistently threaten the defense with his scoring, which he can then leverage into playmaking. You have to be respected as a score first to be a super impactful passer. And I just have major questions and red flags with Demon as a score. He's a good ball handler. He does have really good sides, but he doesn't get to the rim or the line very much.

he doesn't get super low or explode on his drives, he's not a real one-on-one advantage creator. And I think that he can struggle with ball pressure. He can struggle to play and finish through contract. And the shooting numbers are not good. Like the shot mechanics look solid, but 25% on jumpers off the dribble, under 70% from the line.

And in conference play, this is a guy who averaged 9.8 points per game, 3.2 turnovers on 47% true shooting. While, like Logan says, I do think he is going to be attacked defensively. Like I love beautiful passing. Demon is the best passer in this class. I don't think he can leverage that enough to nearly justify this pick.

Like Logan said, I would have taken him 20. That's when I would have been comfortable with the risk reward here. There's a number of guys who I would have preferred. So we did see, we did see the draft room get very stoked. So what's the upside? The upside is someone figures out as a score. Why would this be the direction? There's more there as a jump shooter off the dribble.

that's basically it or he basically finds an ability to get downhill more effectively and then he can make the most of all the shooting. Like if you were to think of a cop for Demmon, it would kind of have to be Josh Giddy. And Josh Giddy, if he can make 40% of his threes and do it with some volume off the dribble is a very different player than Josh Giddy who makes 28 to 30% of his threes at low volume. So where does that jump shot end up? Is the swing factor for sure? I'm just not optimistic about that. Josh Giddy just went for Alex Crusoe straight up. Yeah.

I was going to say, I feel like the floor ceiling comp is maybe not floor, but he feels like Giddy has an archetype for his floor, but the upside is Tyree Talbert. If you're making the case, you're like, okay, this guy who's like playing. I don't think his jumper is ever going to get to that point. I don't think he has sort of like the overall, the floor managing abilities at him.

But if you're trying to pitch yourself on what does Big Guard best passer in the class look like, it's sort of, it's almost like they, just watch the finals and we're like, that's awesome. How do we get one of those? It feels so much more giddy. Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong. It's such a big question, whereas it's like how he knew he was one of the best shooters in the class.

And I'd already proven himself as a really good off ball player and all this stuff that Giddy hadn't and Demin hasn't. It's really rare for a guy to be this tall and long and to be this skilled. Like he's legitimately like 6-9 with a 6-11 wingspan, but he's not a high-end athlete. He's slow. I really think his seal. and maybe floor is solely dependent on like his off the dribble shooting and three point shooting. Shout out Brooklyn, I guess, man.

I mean, time will tell. So at number nine, we have the Toronto Raptors, a team that was the second best defense in the NBA post all-star break. Now, you always got to be a little wary of that kind of thing once we get into the, you know, kind of February on with the numbers. but this is a team that has shown some defensive upside. Obviously, they have their big picture star and Scotty Barnes. Who does Toronto take here at number nine? Malu watch. I'm going to keep pitching for everybody.

And then a Yaka Pertil trade? I think a Yaka Pertil trade, you lean into this sort of like super huge, super athletic defensive identity if you're them. But I don't know. The catch and finish thing with Molo Watch is what everyone's scared about after what happened in the tournament. Is there anybody who's willing to play devil's advocate there and defend Malawatch for what happened?

I like Malawatch. I think he's got surprisingly good touch, actually. And I think the free throw numbers are like, I was kind of shocked at how good of a free throw shooter he is. I think that is some just he needs a little bit more time. He is kind of a raw prospect on the offense of end of the floor. But exactly. He is one of those, which feels very raptors.

And so I do think that he is going to develop considerably more on the offensive than not something I'm worried about. Not that he's going to be, you know, ever going to be a go-to offensive player, I don't think. But I think the catch and finishability is going to is not an issue at all. And he said, and I think, I mean, he's a real defensive anchor,

immediate impact, like put him in the middle and he's going to make you a really good defense. Like I'm also, I'm really excited about him offensively too. very, very small sample size, but he was 63% out of the midrange. He was 77% at the rim. Some of that is a byproduct of his shot selection. But I like that.

The guy takes shots. He's confident going up with. And his defensive floor is so high. And maybe people have like PTSD of these slow-footed big men, but I really like how he moves his feet in space. And I think he defends well in drop coverage. Like, again, I had him number four on my board like Carson. I'm really surprised that he hasn't gone yet.

this guy is one of those big men that's just going to immediately come in and be a stud defensively like I pointed to cling in earlier. That's not a one for one, but it's kind of the guy that I would point to. It's really similar, just a high floor immediate impact big. And you don't often see 7-1 with a 7-7 wingspan, already 250 at 18 years old, who can move like this. I mean, he was a 99th percentile efficiency finisher off the roll. He had a true shooting percentage of 91 as a role man. So like, yeah, the above the rim stuff. finished so many lobs this year. But then also, like Jackson said, I think one of the most intriguing aspects is the legitimate flashes of touch that we've seen, not even saying he's ever going to be

like a stretch big, but just having that little push shot floater, hook shot game, being able to knock down free throws, we know that that's a legitimate difference maker. And then the defensive versatility and knowing that he's only been playing for four years. And he's one of the younger players in this draft. Like, I just think the floor to ceiling ratio here in an archetype that we know is really valuable, that sort of two-way big. I'm all in. I love the talent. This is interesting. Toronto just took Colin Murray Boyles instead, a guy who kind of plays Scotty Barnes's position, a big lefty, hybrid forward power player, good around the rim, underrated defensive players and versatility there. What do you guys think about Colin going to Toronto? They got these

rangy wings, man. Like, how many of these guys can they get? It's a really. It's a ridiculous. This is high. I do like a lot of what you get from Colin Murray Boyles. I think that he's one of the best defensive talents in this class. I think that you're getting extreme versatility from him there. Offensively, I think you have more questions about where is he going to fit in? Because he's going to be a four. Like he is a very good rebounder for his size. He's a good rim protector, but he's not a defensive anchor. It's more his versatility. That's the selling point there. So you have to find a role for him that is going to be more perimeter-centric. And that's where the jump shot is a big question and concern.

He's a 70% free-throw shooter. He made 9-3s all year, shot 26% from deep. So I think he's going to be below average as a jump shooter. He has to get into that sort of average range to justify this value. And then he does do things that I like offensive. Like he's got good feel. He's a pretty good rim finisher. He's got good instincts as a cutter.

He has some mismatch attacking potential as a post-up player. Like, he definitely has game there. I just don't know how much he'll be utilized, but he's got a nice little skilled face-up game. He's got some good passing feel. Like, he does a lot of connective winning stuff. This is just high for me when I do have questions about his offensive role. And I don't really see the ceiling there.

If they were going to take a wing and he's not really a wing, he's more of a forward. Like, he's more of a four. There were guys who I liked more. And if they wanted like a defensive-minded big, I would have taken Molo Watch. And he's kind of like walking the line between those two roles almost. He's a nice player, but this is too high for me. I mean, they've gift wrapped Malu Watch to the Sons, man. Oh my goodness.

You're right. You're right. If they mess this up, that is a good take, Logan. I'm sending the Sons an award of some kind. That would be incredible. I think we've seen so many kind of guys that come through that fit this mold where it's like they're looking for that like undersized big slash forward who's a good playmaker and a versatile defender ever since draymond had success but i do think colin has real

physical tools which is something i think draymond was contending with at his in his time but i'm i'm a big believer in power i'm a big believer in physical power that can move its feet yeah it's it when you can move your feet and you bring real power i think that there's real value there and i think that you know big guys that can play out of the role that can beat switches is that can also guard multiple positions and be a backline defender. I think there's value there. I think there's certainly upside. But I can't get my mind off the idea of Phoenix having Malawatch fall right into their lap.

And watch them mess it up. I was about to say, we haven't until the pick is in. Wait for Phoenix to do something. Okay. Who does Phoenix take instead of Malawatch? Acer Newell. I don't know. It's got to be him, right?

I mean, he's the best player. What about what about? best player available and they've been talking about what about cedric coward what about carter bryant like a role player wing that's an athletic physical player to be alongside dylan brooks and add a physical identity to the team i wouldn't hate that but like just considering the circumstances they were in last year with big nurk at the five and not being able to play defense it's just foolish to me to not center is where you can have the most impact you know as a defensive player and i think mowalooch is an elite defender or it's going to be really good

good at the NBA level immediately. I think the funniest pick is if they went with somebody like Derek Queen or something, and Nishbia is like, yeah, we're going to run some offense through him on the low block. So, Nishbia is kind of a college basketball head, you know, as a Michigan state person, so that wouldn't be too much. I really hope he keeps his hands off. You know, I wouldn't hate Bryant or coward. I like both of their games.

I definitely like coward more. I just think he's going to be a winner. But they've got so many guys on the wings already. Like their entire roster is like book. Jalen Green, Dylan Brooks, Ryan Dunn. It's like Brad Beale, you can only have so many twos and threes on your roster. I just think it would be really foolish to allocate your most valuable asset. This is, again, guys, they got one pickback for KD, man.

You got to make this thing worthwhile. Like, I think this is a huge misstep if they don't take Malu Watch. Do you guys think that Phoenix is going to at least have some bit of hesitation with Mowatch in some of his rebounding issues given that they were such a terrible rebounding team? I think the rebounding stuff probably has more to do with the amount he was playing out in space defensively. And I think that that's an indicator of like one of his cool abilities, which is that he is this massive human being who can move his feet, who isn't necessarily going to switch a ton. But we'll switch some and can play up at the level. Like I think he's going to be a good rebound.

I also think he's a better shot blocker than some of the raw numbers would indicate. And even like per 40, you know, his rebounds. Rebounding numbers aren't bad. He's a really good offensive rebounder, which is part of the reason I'm encouraged about the defensive rebounding being better than the numbers. I mean, 2.7 offensive rebounds a game in 21 minutes. That's pretty damn good. You got to be a physical ass kicker to get that many offensive rebounds. I'm with you on that.

Are we annoyed at all? A Houston Rockets logo is on the screen right now. It's so dumb. It's so dumb. It confused me for a second. Trying to prep making a graphic. Oh, wow. Okay, we got a Shams report.

Wow, a trade. The Charlotte Hornets are trading Mark Williams to the Phoenix Suns for the number 29 pick and a 2029 first round pick. Wow. You could have had the better, you could have the better Duke Big Man without giving up. Hold on. The pick is still coming in. They might take both. Mark Williams, to me, I did a deep eval into him for the Lakers so we could talk about him in a minute.

I have to see what this pick is. This is going to be interesting. I do like getting a way out in the future first from the Sons. That's like a savvy move from Charlotte. I'm not going to lie. They got the Sons gave the number 29 tonight and a 2029, 2.29. The Sons can trade. Yeah, but is that one of the three first that they got back in that separate?

It might not be their pick. That's the thing. Oh, it might not be their pick. Remember, they flipped that one pick they had for three picks from somebody. They don't have that 209 pick. 26 to 31. Go Sons. Okay. Here comes Adam.

What a funky deal to happen while you're on the clock. That's got to be like defense for not taking Molo Watch. They took Moll Watch. Why are you making? What in the world is going on? Here's the thing with Mark Williams. This is a team that's been bad at center for a long time. So they're probably trying to stock up.

But they've got the entire Charlotte Hornet's center rotation in house now that they can, that they can rely on. The, uh, Mark Williams is a very good role man. a very good offensive rebounder, but he is legitimately atrocious on defense, and apparently the medical was really nasty. So, like, I wouldn't want to rely on Mark Williams as a starting center. Do you think this is mostly an attempt to essentially offer insurance at the position?

We're taking a young player to play center in a dead serious team that's got a bunch of win now guys in Devin Booker, Bradley, B.L. Dillan Brooks. You've got some young talent in-house, like Ryan Dunn, but it's not exactly a bright, bright future, but you bring in a young player, but you have Mark Williams as kind of an insurance policy against the young player. I see that.

I just don't know if I'd be giving up two first for Mark Williams because, like, I agree with your evaluation, Jason. I think clearly the offensive talent, I mean, the athleticism pops at his size. We even saw a little bit of passing feel from him this year, but like major, major availability concerns. Obviously, the trade got rescinded with the Lakers. Lakers legend Mark Williams.

And then defensively, the tools are there. Like we saw it as a rookie. We saw it as a prospect. And then it's just like falling off a cliff. And so how much is he going to be able to turn that around? It's kind of hard to say. I do like Mollwatch more long term. And so I do think that they kind of overpaid for Mark Williams if they're going to have

both these guys. That being said, I'm glad that they took Mollwatch. I don't think it's crazy for them to invest kind of big in two different centers this offseason. I do think the Mark Williams thing is a bit of. of an overpay, but I mean, they needed to retool their entire center situation and they got the best talent on the board here at their biggest position of need. Now they have their offensively inclined center. They have their defensively inclined center who I do think has some offensive

upside too. They have their guy who is year four more ready to play now. And then they have their rookie who's 18 and has played four years of basketball. So I can kind of see the vision. At the end of the day, I'm just happy they took Molo Watch and didn't mess it up on that front. Dude, Marlwatch is weeping. you need somebody to grab all the bricks jalen green's going to be laying up there the sham shams clarified the 2029 first rounder it's the least favorable of cleveland Utah so now we're talking about the 29th pick and the 20 something pick in 29 so those are two those aren't not valuable first rounders that's not terrible when you

consider you know what it could be so I actually have a hilarious story to tell you guys So do you guys remember when the Nick Richards trade went down last year? I, because Paul Farrington, you guys all know Paul. He just messaged me. Paul Farrington used to produce this show. He,

he one day got a legitimate, like 25 minute, like reaction to Mark Williams getting traded to the Sons because I misread the report. And I did all the prep and recorded like a full length. This is what Mark Williams would be able to do alongside Kevin Durant and Devin.

Booker trade reaction. And literally, Paul texts me, he's like, did you mean Mark Williams? Like, are you aware that it's actually Nick Richards? And I was like, what? And then I went and read the report, and I felt like a total bum ass. And then I told him to scrap it and pretend it never happened. So maybe somewhere

on Paul Farrington's computer, we can find the original Mark Williams to the son's reaction. It's a little dated now, since the roster is a little different. But, yeah, Logan, Logan's right. There's going to be a lot of bricks to grab. So while we wait for Portland to make their next pick,

what did you guys make of Boston and then pivoting to Anthony Simons and shedding some salary over the course the last couple of days? I think that this was inevitable. I think that we all knew that they were going to be trying to get off of those KP and drew contracts. It was clear that a major priority for ownership was going to be getting under the second A for not having to pay an egregious tax bill and those are the two contracts that you look at to make it happen. I think that overall, they did it a pretty nice job. Like I'm not the biggest aunt Simon's guy. I think that he is a difficult archetype to really entrust with a significant role or to pay a really high dollar

value. And it's the same sort of push pull we've been talking about, very skilled offensively, but will he be efficient enough impactful as a playmaker to justify that he's a terrible defensive player? Probably not big picture. But for this year, why not? You know, need more creation, obviously, with Tatum out. You need a guy who can produce some offense for you with volume. He can do that. And it's a one year trial. And then you see where you go from there.

I think getting off the Drew contract is a win for them. Getting back two second rounders is a win. I thought they really made out nicely with that deal. And then the KP one, it's more just like kind of, all right, they got off his contract. Like, you know, they get back basically nothing to do it. It's George Nyang and a second rounder. He was in expiring, all the availability questions.

Like, I get why he wasn't super coveted as an asset. I like that a lot for the. the Hawks and I like it for the Nets. I think both those teams made out with more interesting packages for Boston. It's just like, this makes sense. Everybody around White and Tatum and probably Jalen Brown is going to be expendable. And then they've got Pritchard and Houser on their really team friendly deals. And we'll see if Al Horford sticks around. That's going to be your group going forward. But you're going to be transitioning to a pretty dramatically different era of Celtics basketball around that when Tatum comes back. We haven't really seen a

lead guard like Anthony Simons, a true lead guard that can beat his man off the dribble and and kind of provide some real downhill speed with the ball in this Boston Celtic system. Like, Kyrie even, you know, obviously that was a much lesser roster. I just think, I think there's a certain amount of like big lead guard speed that Anthony brings that I'm just curious to see what it looks like. And I think it's kind of an interesting flyer. Like you, you could just literally let his contract run out and view it as an opportunity to just shed salary if you wanted to, but in the meantime, you get to find out what it looks like in this system. And like, you know, Portland has been a dumpster fire for a variety of reasons over

the last several years, but Boston kind of is the quintessential place where people learn how to play modern basketball. And so I think that there's a, a potential upside there that at least makes it exciting. I, me and Jackson were talking about this the other day. Like, at the very least, and for any being in a Celtics jersey kind of makes next season a little more exciting for Celtics fans. We did just get the report from Shams that I'm sure will be coming across the TV in a second. The Trailblazers are trading the pick to the Memphis Grizzlies. And the pick is your guys' boy, Cedric Coward. Dylan Brooks Replacement.

Cedric. Dylan Brooks Replacement. I absolutely love it. I mean, I think it's a really good value pick. Like Coward is one of my guys, if not my guy. honestly probably him and Malu Watch are the two guys in the lottery who I'm maybe the highest on compared to the consensus. But this is a guy who wasn't really super high on a lot of people's radars because

he only played six games this year before he got hurt. He was at Washington State. And before that, he was at Eastern Washington. But truly one of the players I'm most confident in translating to being a real quality wing and a quality starter got awesome measurables for a wing six six with a seven two wingspan. That's just phenomenal length and size at the position. and does so many of those things that you want from a starting wing.

Like, first of all, the efficiency is incredible. This guy's basically 70% on twos and 40% on threes over multiple years of college basketball. I think he's an elite three-point shooter. He's got a mid-range pull-up game when he's attacking closeouts, playing off the bounce. And then he's got good passing feel and connective abilities there. He's just a very high IQ guy, takes what the defense gives him, can score inside the arc and is an elite shooter from beyond it.

and he can make the reads as a passer. And then defensively, great screen navigator, super fluid, agile mover. And obviously the length is super impactful. So he's almost 22. The ceiling isn't the highest, but the floor legitimately is among the highest. And if you're Memphis, this is what you want, right? You want a wing who can contribute right now on both sides of the ball

and help you revitalize your playoff chances. I think it's a phenomenal pick for them. Yeah, I love this move for Memphis too. I think he's got legitimate upside too. like maybe not as high as some of the highest guys in this class, but I think there's more to tap into. Carson was talking about some of the efficiency numbers. Over three years of college,

because we can't just use his last year, over 70% at the rim, 55% out of the mid range and 39% from deep. That's a legitimate sample size. And he's just the total package. That's what I call Cedric Howard. He can score. He can play make.

He can rebound. He can defend. I just think he's going to be a really immediate impact player. and I think Memphis crushed this pick. I'm intrigued to see what they gave up, but I really like this for them. Reporting is in from Jake Fisher. He said they traded 11 for number 16 in this draft, a future first rounder and two second rounders. And so exactly what that's a lot.

That's a lot to see. Wow. And I mean, we already know that Portland is on some sort of weird win now trajectory going after Drew Holiday trying to open up a spot for scoot. Anderson and they're kind of loaded up at this athletic forward that can defend position already. And so it makes some sense there. I mean, the big thing for Memphis and, you know, Memphis has kind of always had an eye on this sort of thing. This is why they keep drafting guys that can help them right away. But guys that are pretty big for their position that can dribble, shoot, pass, and defend are so immensely valuable in the NBA. And to me, Cedric Howard just fits

that mold perfectly. And he fits a position of direct need for next season. at the small forward spot. I think it makes a big price to move up five spots. I mean, I'm yeah, there's got to be some real protections on that.

I love Cedric Coward, so, and I love the fit, but that is a lot. I like that trade. It's in Orlando first, too, so they're going to be, I mean, but I do like it for Portland. I think that's a good point, Logan. I mean, why not? They're just drafted and or stashing a draft capital at this point. So does Jalen Well,

moved to the two with Bain gone at that point? Probably becomes your starting. Yeah. So it goes Morant, Wells. Does Coward start at the three right away? I'm ready for it. Who else would? Yeah, I like him starting.

And I really like the Wells coward. I mean, just that combination of shooting, defense, some secondary tertiary ball handling and playmaking for you. Those are two winning basketball players to pair alongside John Triple J. So I like the vision there. Does Memphis have enough ball handling to be good next year? No, certainly not. But do you think they end up trading, John?

But I don't think they will. I would too, but I don't think so. Yeah, I, it does, he does feel like a, like a reset new change of scenery can. This feels very Atlanta West to me, where you've got this lead guard that obviously has his flaws, but anybody could drink the Kool-Aid and talk themselves into thinking he's going to be the guy who saves their franchise, but he's now in this weird holding pattern where he's surrounded by role player talent and good enough to be fighting in the play in tournament every year, but not good enough to get above it.

That's what it feels like to me. And Atlanta's now being aggressive. Exactly. And he's kind of being more of a seller, you know, at least Atlanta now talked himself into Big Three, Trey, Jalen Johnson, KP, and of course, Jackson, they are in the East where the bar is totally different. But actually, I'm excited for Atlanta. The bar.

That's an aggressive move, though. So that's an aggressive move from Memphis to get up, to give up that kind of compensation for a second round pick, or for a five spots in the first round. Yeah, I am excited to watch Boston next year just with that group of guys. I'm excited to see Jalen Brown in a lead ball handling role for a good amount of time. One of the big things with Amphurny and his efficiency tanking last year was him getting the primary defensive assignment every night, as opposed to alongside Dame where his efficiency was higher. Celtics fans also got to see firsthand as Anthony played pretty well against them last year. And I think ultimately what it'll come down to is whether or not Amphorne can defend in that system. Because I think if he could defend in that system and they could get him at a respectable number,

I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to keep him on board. Okay. So at number 12, we have the Chicago Bulls. Where do you guys think Chicago's going on? Ironically, I really liked Cedric Coward. for Chicago. I think you look front court, right, either like a three and D wing

or a defensive-minded big, probably. Like a Carter-Bryan or maybe a Sorber. Yeah, maybe. I don't know how long, you know, if they want to, you think they're looking for more of a long-term kind? I can never wrap my, trying to rationalize what the Bulls are trying to do is like impossible.

But you think they're looking more long-term or short-term? Because like long-term, I would hear like in a Sengay or maybe a Beringer with, upside, but like immediate impact, I'd probably be looking at a, I do like sorbber to them. And you know, give them a little bit of flexibility to get off that Vooch contract. That'd probably be where I'd go. We have another trade. I've got another trade here. Yeah, go ahead. Jackson. The Hawks are making weird moves all across the board. They're trading them to where one pick after this, board they're trading the 13 pick to the Pelicans for 23 and an unprotected

26 first most favorable of New Orleans and Milwaukee. Those could both be good picks. That's, depending on what happens with the- I mean, it's a 10-spot move-up, so you've got to need to give up something decent, but unprotected 2026 first, potentially from New Orleans and Milwaukee. Yeah, and with the guys that are available at this spot, I don't see anybody that makes it turn a sense for a way right now. They just wanted out another, like, rangy 3-D wing.

They are, obviously, I already have a few, but I don't know if you can ever have too many. But I just like that as a value proposition for them. They didn't need to force it. yeah well and that's the point if they can find we talked about how it kind of like flattens out once you get to this point in the draft they can find a role player wing at 23 you know with zachary rissa shay and jalen johnson they don't necessarily have a ton of minutes available on the wing right now i think that makes some sense some little asset curious who new Orleans is so excited about trading up for is the real question pick is in for the bulls here a sen get we got i can see that for sure i mean we were talking talking about them wanting to go out there and get a wing or somebody in the front court who's more defensive-minded. And Asengue is a guy who I think there's kind of a split opinion on where a lot of people are optimistic about the ceiling that he has just athletically. And I do think

he's going to be quite a good defensive player. He's got really good length and versatility on that side of the ball. He'll play physically. He's a decent secondary rim protector. And then offensively, he can weaponize that athleticism in transition with the cutting. He gets to the line a lot. He's got some potential as a closeout attacker. And then he's got like decent feel as a connective passer. The concern for me with him is just, I definitely see an outcome where he's an offensive liability in the half court because the shot is a huge question mark. He's 25% from three. I don't really like the mechanics there. He has some bad misses. Was that Mike Miller with him though? Is he working out with Mike Miller trying to fix that jumper? Is Mike Miller just with him? Oh, I was

not looking. When he was celebrating, you know what? You know what? Mike Miller. That's a good indicator. Yeah, good for you. He said Carson, I'm on it, man. This is fine to me. Like, I would have preferred Carter Bryant, but I like this philosophically for the Bulls. You guys are going to love this. Derek Queen to New Orleans at 13. That's so funny. I was totally thinking that. Like, how are they going to, what are they going to draft a Zion replacement? Like, kind of this weird, big awkward foreman. And that's exactly what they did. That was like the least, my least favorite destination for for queen actually.

What the hell is? Yeah. What the hell is? I do like Queen as just a value talent here, but he is like that big, thick kind of face-up driver who's going to want to get downhill a lot. And defensively, you're trying to find a role for him as like a tweener. I don't think he can be a five for you defensively. And then offensively, you got questions about the jumper, big questions about the jumper.

I don't think this is the spot for him to maximize his skill. He can't play with Zion. He can't play with him. Do you guys think this? I mean, do you guys think that this kind of indicates that they're, it kind of looks like they're booting up for the future, right? I mean, fears and queen?

Yeah, so I would assume that the new front office is coming in and cleaning house. That's what I would assume. That way. Yeah, I would imagine. Yeah, you can't. How are you playing Zion and Derek Queen? I'm not. I mean, I definitely like the talent here.

He's kind of boom or bust just because he is in a very unique mold. But you do see that ability to get to the rim, get to the line, some of the feel and vision as a passer. Like, there's definitely a lot of offensive upside for him. If you can put the right infrastructure around him where you can kind of insulate him defensively, maybe with a great five alongside him there. And then offensively, I think the swing factor is his jump shot and what level he can get to there. He can be solid. But yeah, interesting, they picked two very skilled offensive players, both who have jumpshot questions.

That's a little rickety. but it is a fun sort of offensive duo to build around. If you could get a defensive center. Seems like a drafting from upside. I mean, I see the vision. Yeah, definitely. What do you guys think makes sense as a Zion destination around the league?

So this would have to be a team that can anchor him with a preferably a center that can shoot and also protect the rim. So we're already pretty limited there. San Antonio. San Antonio. Okay.

I don't know who's taking on Zion. and they would have to be a team that really needs some rim pressure. Yeah. Or a desperate team in need of an upside play. He's going to play 20 to 25 games. I don't see a robust market there.

What if you, what if like Cleveland did something crazy like that? You know. And put him next to Evan Mowgli. I'm just throwing out. I'm grasping at straws here, guys. That's wild. I feel like he's going to end up. The Cleveland one, I can see the bones of the basketball fit there. That would be.

That would be amazing. That's a big risk. Yeah, Cleveland, with Cleveland, they didn't really have reliable rim pressure off of Donovan Mitchell. They kind of got exposed as like half of their playoff rotation, suddenly not looking good in the playoffs. There's, Cleveland,

it would be like a wild upside play. But I'm just trying to, I'm just grass in a Jared Allen base package. Yeah. What about Miami? I don't put their hat in the ring for anybody. Brooklyn. I wonder about Phoenix.

Phoenix. Phoenix would be interesting. Centers, but we'd get reporting about Miami that they wanted Zion, but they didn't want to give up Jaime Hawkes or like Haywood Highsmith. Heywood Highsmith is where they draw the line for sure.

Like, yeah. No chance. He's like such an astronomical talent, but even not accounting for the major, major health stuff. He's always been a tricky guy to kind of figure out how to build around, because what you said, Jason, like the stretch big who also protects the rim, there's a handful of those guys.

And you, like, really want one of those guys with Zion. So that in and of itself is weird. And then, like, you want them to be like your de facto point guard offensively. So you want to put a bunch of shooting and rangy wings around him. Like, it's a little clunky and I just don't see people taking on that risk. What do you guys think about this isn't the cleanest fit? What about like Detroit? That's an interesting one.

But it's the shooting. It's the shooting big. Like with Miami, at least you could talk yourself into like, okay, well, this is the time to get off of BAM for the most value because we know we're not good enough yet. We trade BAM for assets and youth. We look at Zion and Keller where as basically our stretch five in Zion type of construct. We bet on our culture and the ability to keep Zion in shape. But I feel like Zion would be like Miami. Miami. Like, yeah. What are you trying to say, guys? I'm trying to say. I mean, everyone's going to make the same jokes about Derek Queen also, for the record. I will not be making those jokes, but someone will be making these New Orleans, New Orleans jokes. Yeah, that's, that's a very good point. Number 14 is going to be the San Antonio Spurs.

I like what does Spurs take here? They got some good options here. I like a wing for that. Carter Bryant would be great. I think Carter Bryant makes a ton of sense. I think that's got to be the vision is you're all in on far for now and obviously you already have Fox. But you just want to stack as many good two-way wings. as you can around that core guard in Wembe, I think.

And he's the best guy in that mold on the board. I do love Neat Clifford. I love him. I just think, like, even though he does some of that wind stuff, and he's a great rebounder, and he's got solid defensive tools. Like, he is still a guard. Like, he's a ball handler.

And I don't know if they have room for another 6-6 guard who wants to get into the paint a fair bit with the ball in his hands when they already have, as we talked about Harper and Fox and Castle. But if they did that, I wouldn't be mad because I love the talent. I think that Carter Bryant's a cleaner fit, though. Yeah, Carter Bryant feels like very NBA archetype that they need for sure. I do think they're in a unique position where if you're like, let's try to take a slightly wildcardi pick because they have kind of so much going on already

that that's how you can talk yourself into a guy like Need Clifford. But Carter Bryant feels like the, you know, tried and true. There's a lot of Carter Bryant's in the NBA right now. I like anchoring Wembe with big physical assets. I like Yaku Chonis a lot as a talent among the guys. guys who haven't gone yet, I don't think there's room for him in San Antonio. And yeah, yeah, his slide's a little interesting, though, because you can see the concerns, just with like athletically, you know, is he going to be able to hang defensively?

He's going to get targeted. It's kind of seeming like when you're in that mold and it's kind of the same thing with beers, like you probably just need one team to be really high on you to take you number seven. But if that one team isn't there, you can see other teams being concerned about the red flags and then you do kind of slide. And I think that's maybe happening with Yakichon. Not that he's sliding crazy far, but it's a little bit of a slide for him. I think Carter Bryant's definitely the play here.

Any front court, I think they need a three or a four. I think your guard spots figured out. You've got your five guy. Maybe Sorber, if you wanted like a backup five man for Wemby, but that's not really as big of a concern. I'm so not. Oh, I love how Sorber's a big body. I love how physical he is. He is a, he's like a throwback kind of guy.

I just like his, he plays nasty. And he's going to be like the eighth heaviest dude in the league day one. He's like 263 pounds. He's a big nasty dude. I like that. I want that guy on my team. We're obviously going to be calling it quits here in a few minutes. So is there any other guy that you guys have on your boards that you want to shout out before we call it today?

Any shoutouts? Any guys that's like, you know, we're not going to be on the stream long enough to hit this guy, but I don't want to get a chance to shout out this guy that I'm high on. Yes. I love Walter Clayton Jr. He may very well be a bad archetype. I don't care. I think people, I said I would have taken Clayton in the top 10 just because I'm so confident in him being a really good player.

I know that a lot of people feel like that's a reach, but really good shooter, really good feel. My one can, my two concerns with him are obviously defensively as a smaller guard and then some of the rim finishing. He was good this year, but his past years at Florida and I, He was like under 55% as a rim finisher. So don't get me wrong. There are red flags there with Clayton, but he's an elite, he's a special shooter. Like I think that gets overused, but I don't know. When I watch Walter Clayton, he makes me feel tingly.

So yeah, shout out Walter. I think he's going to be good immediately, but I think there's definitely some upside there too. Yaku Chonis and Ekechliford, but those are my two favorite guys left on the board. With Yacuchonis, one of the higher offensive ceilings, this is a guy who could potentially be an elite shooter who is definitely an elite space creator for himself as a jump shooter. But the shot selection can be tough. The jump shot efficiency really went down later in the year, although he did have an injury. But I think there's indicators that he's a really good shooter. And then he's a really good below the rim finisher, really good foul draw, gets to the rim a bunch

and one of the best passes in the class. The concerns would be high turnover, going to get targeted defensively. How good is the shot? But I'm an optimist with him. And then he, Clifford, I just think, is a great do-it-all guard. He's 23 and a half, so you understand that the ceiling isn't the highest, but he can create, he can knock down shots off the dribble off the catch, he can drive, he can facilitate. It's a great rebounding wing, so those are my two favorite guys. I like those guys as well. It's going to be annoying if OKC gets either one of those guys, because either, I mean, not that Yaku Jonas is fairly fits in their classic archetype, but sliding him in around a bunch of great defensive players. It's like this connected

play. And they need ball handling. And they need ball handling. I think he'd be awesome. Maybe we should stay on through pick 15. Um, yeah, we'll stay on those. I got like those guys. I also like the Stanford big rain. Oh, I don't know. His, his game is so awkward and funky and weird, but he does a lot of things. And he's ginormous.

I love it. Carter Bryant to the San Antonio Spurs. It's the right pick. And I, I think that like Carter Bryant's a guy who some people got a little high on for my taste, but he ends up going at 14. And I think that that's a really good range and a value pick. Like, he wasn't productive. He didn't have a big role as a freshman.

But even though I have. definitely reservations about what level of offensive player he can be. There's really no creation, but even beyond that, like, you know, what level of closeout attacker is he going to be? Is he going to have any sort of intermediate game playing off of attacking closeouts, playing with an advantage? He projects to be a pretty good shooter. He projects to be an awesome defender, good cutter, good feel, solid connective pass or good

transition score, like just a high floor guy and an archetype that you like. And I think he's exactly the kind of player. the Spurs need. We were just talking about a big athletic wings around Wembe and your guards. I think it's the right pick. So I am loving the idea of Yakuchonis in Oklahoma City. I think this makes a ton of sense. I think that Indiana with their ball pressure exposed a weakness within Oklahoma City's roster in just their ability to put the ball on the floor and create for others beyond Shea and J-Dub. I think that this is just a

And a ball handler that can help set up teammates for quality shots brings a little bit of that pull-up shooting. Obviously, the jump shot didn't go in at the highest rate that he'll need to get to at the NBA level. But I think that makes a lot of sense. Is there anybody else on this board that you guys think makes sense for O.K.C.? And before we get into this, like I've talked about this concept before, but I think as Oklahoma City looks to shed salary, the way that they'll do it is by not spending on role players beyond rookie contracts. I think it'll be a lot of chat, J. Dub, and Shea, and then just cite. through rookie contracts, the occasional like, oh, we love this guy. So we'll package two or three

first to trade up in the draft to get the right kind of guy. But in many cases, right here in the middle of the first round is where you can find the fourth year, fifth year college guy who played in a really good system and is ready to play in a winning context. So anybody else here that makes sense for Oklahoma City. And I think what a lot of Thunder fans might say to the Yakuchonis pick is this is what we have Nicola Topich for. And if you say, okay, well, we want to take multiple shots. at that. I can see that vision because clearly ball handling is a need. I think a lot of them are high on him and I

did like Topich a lot. I thought he was a really good value pick. So it's always a gamble when you're entrusting a rookie with that, but the same would be said for Yakicona. So I can see that argument for sure and the talent is definitely there. With Neat Clifford, I just think you get a guy who can do some handling for you, but it's also just like

such a thunder kind of player where he's that do it all, big guard, has the length to be solid defensively and rebound. And I can just see Presti falling in love with those measurables, that versatility, the epitome of like pro ready, again, 23 and a half. You know what you're getting with him. That was actually the pick that we mocked to OKC at 15 and I would very much like to see them take him. Okay. Dude, 10 rebounds a game as a non-center in college. And 91st percent of a world

creator, 95th percentile isolation creator, Jason. Like he's got game. Obviously, you can talk about the competition, but it's not joke competition. Colorado's, state was a good quality tournament team. And he was part of that in like, they won a tournament game. They were very competitive in their second tournament game. He's got the creation juice, but they're also sort of a motion offense.

There's a lot of ball movements so he can play off the ball too. Like, I really like him. Yeah. I also think speaking of trying to draft players that they can not, so they can shed some of these salaries. If a lot of like, they're going to have to move up Hardinstein very soon talk from them. So Sorber would be a guy who sort of fits this like rookie

big body center type that maybe isn't it's going to they don't want to be a starter but if you go up against the Denver Nuggets again in two seasons and he's maybe ready for that sort of type of battle in a season or two it could he makes sense of sort of just like a find a role player big in the draft type because I do think that's a great try I mean I think there's three archetypes that's why I'm not that big more ball handling it's an elite shooter or it's a big who can replace heart andstein and give us those quality backup minutes you don't think they're ever going to be looking for a traditional four man at any point because they still don't really have one on the monster beyond chet if he becomes that guy

like i like who's the guy that's going to feel like if they needed to throw an aaron gordon type of defender at somebody just a big physical strong like are they just counting on jdub to be that guy like i think that's part of their rebounding issues that they have over the years is that they don't have like a six eight to six 10 rangey forward i kind of like newel in that spot because of that he sort of feels like brandon clark to me as sort of this sort of like just filling all these stop gaps and be an athlete and get a bunch of rebounds and hopefully one day growing I see that. I also think like Colin Murray Boyd would have been a guy in that mold. I did see him to okay see a fair bit, but he's off the board now. You know, I see it. I just think this would be

a little high for me in terms of the value. I'm just questioning some of where does he fit in kind of on both sides of ball because I do think he's more of a four. Like I don't think he can anchor the five for you and then offensively does he have the perimeter skill to justify that like there's the flashes of touch, but is that going to be enough to be a real foundation? I have some of those questions. But I see what you're saying for sure, Jason. I mean, that was my thought last off season is go out there, get that, like, more powerful, big forward to play the four.

So you keep chat at the five, because long term chat's going to be at the five. There's not a ton of those guys out there, though. And like, I would love to see them get Cam Johnson. He's not that kind of power player, but he has the size and obviously the elite shooting. He's not a great positional rebounder, though, for his size. so he's a four, but he's really a wing. You're right that it's a rare position. Like this is honestly a big part of why I'm excited about Kevin Durant in Houston.

Like it's just so rare to have a four man that can legitimately play offense at a bunch of different spots on the floor, but that can get a defensive rebound and it can make a help side rotation at the rim. Like those are pretty rare qualities at the position in the NBA. And like even at 37 years old going into next season, Evan Durant can get a defensive rebound and he can protect the rim and out of that four spot. And so I think there's real value there. And I am curious to see if Oklahoma City ends up ever filling that archetype or if they just plan on. You know, a lot of it is, you know, Chet's offensive development too.

Like if he speeds up his release and becomes a more, you know, a better ball handler in traffic and some of the things that really exposed his offensive issues in this postseason run. I think if some of those things come to fruition, then they wouldn't need to do that. The pick is in. We will get our Oklahoma City pick. We'll react to it. And then we will call it a day. Any other NBA draft takes you guys wanted to unleash before we call it a day? I feel like there hasn't been a ton of surprises outside of that.

I really did not like that. That was the best celebration we saw all day. Clearly I'm missing something. And it's the biggest, whoa from us, you know. I do like, I do like Barron. a little bit. Say it correctly.

Big man, he's only been playing bass. Yeah, no, I can't say. I'm from the South, man. We're going to give it a little dirty touch to it. He's, he defends like a wild man. Like, he's, uh,

he's only been playing basketball for four years. Sorber. 15. I like it. I like it. Jackson called it. I think it's solid. That's the kind of team that I feel like,

again, I wasn't a big Sorber fan, but that's the perfect kind of situation. Good defender, good rebounder, like defensive playmaker. And he's, he is, big and nasty. He is big and nasty, and I think it'll translate to the playoffs.

Also, like you were saying, Jackson, sorry not to cut you off, Carson, if they do got to move off the Hardinstein money to clear up some contract space, I think he could be a good guy to fill in on that rookie deal. They love their bigs, who can pass, you can run handoffs and spot cutters and do stuff like that. I think he can do some of that for you. He's a nice two-way player. Like, the ceiling is pretty low, but I don't think OKC really cares about that at this point. I think they're trying to find the guy can play that role for them. And it's one of the needs we talked about. So I'm good with it. To your point, we had discussed, um, we had discussed the idea of, uh, like going with more of like a

wing, but this is an Oklahoma City team that has an enormous amount of depth at that position already. Whereas at the center position, you know, obviously they have Jalen Williams who played spottingly, uh, sparingly throughout the postseason. But like, this is a position where like, they might actually have some more use use for him in the short term. Especially like if you look at a situation where Hartenstein is no longer on the books in a couple of years. Any other thoughts that you guys have? I wonder how far you could. Oh my God.

Minnesota could actually be amazing for him. Like just take a swing on a ball handler. Yeah. That's a good point. A backup ball handler. Dude, he should be there. Frankly, he could be their starting point card in like two seasons. And there's like,

Memphis, I would assume, is still looking at Scottie Pippin Jr. As their backup ball handler. That's Portland now. Memphis does need, oh, they traded that pick to Portland. Okay, that's Portland's pick. And Portland just literally got rid of a ball handler to clean space for Scoot Henderson. So they'll probably go a different direction. Yeah, Yakuchonis to Minnesota is a really interesting, a really interesting option.

All right, guys, that is all we have for today. Almost two hours. We might have come on and push that record. I think that we hold the top 10 spots for the longest show. in outside history. We might have to look into that. We'd have to check ESPN stats and info real quick. But as always,

we appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. I plan on recording a mailbag tomorrow on draft-related stuff. So we'll take questions from these YouTube comments. We'll also take questions. I'll send out a tweet asking for questions. But tomorrow, we're recording a mailbag.

Again, that's all we have for today. As always, we appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. And we will see you guys tomorrow. What's up, guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening. to and supporting hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys supporting us, but if you

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Tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel.

help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam, it's Isaiah Thomas.

And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season, and I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was crying. You just under. That's how personal it got.

Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in to you, he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Every family has its secrets. But what happens when you discover that your dad has been living a double life? That is not the look of an innocent man. Is everyone lying to me about who they are? I felt such desperation. I felt it was what I had to do.

Listen to Deep Cover the Family Man on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.