The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Michael Jordan, Joe Burrow, Trevor Lawrence, OBJ

Episode Date: May 5, 2020

Colin talks about Michael Jordan being authentic and the media shouldn't ask him to change who he is. He feels Trevor Lawrence is a better player than Joe Burrow considering Burrow had more weapons. Also his thoughts on Odell Beckham Jr.s latest comments. Guests include John Middlekauff, Bryan Cox, J. A. Adande, and Penny Hardaway. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played. with and just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to listen to learn the hard way on the iha radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast what's up guys

this is clivert taylor the fourth and on my podcast the clivert show i'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff like being an internet famous referee we're in the middle of a game this linebacker this linebacker walks up to me he goes a ref my mom wants you to wave at her what Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Rhett, my mama want you to weigh better. What? Hey, Ms. Parker.

Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for listening to The Heard podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday from 12 to 3 Eastern, 9 to noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and FS1. Find your local station for the herd at Fox SportsRadio.com or stream us live every day on the iHeart Radio app by searching Herd. We're listening to Fox Sports Radio. Ah, here we go on a Tuesday live in Los Angeles. This is The Herd.

Wherever you may be in, however you may be listening, IHeart Radio, Fox Sports Radio, FS1 and Sirius XM Channel 83, the former Miami Dolphin, Pro Bowler Brian Cox, one hour, from now, Jets, Bears, Pates, Pats, and Dolphins. They'll be joining us. Joy Taylor, how are you? I'm great. You know what I watched yesterday? The Alex Smith documentary.

How is that? It's pretty fascinating. It's kind of hard not to root for him after watching it. And his leg, if you have a light stomach, it's not for you. Yeah, I've, I have not watched the injury. I've saw Joe Thaisman's live once. I never watched it again.

I hate watching athletes get hurt severely. Oh, I do too. I never rewatched. Oh, I can't. But the comeback for him is really, I mean, he's at 17 surgeries. It's incredible. So is the Michael Jordan documentary. I want to lead with this this morning.

Everybody's enjoying it, except for, you know, the media, where some media people have taken shots at it. The latest is Mike Sealski, who writes for the Philadelphia Inquirer, big column yesterday, which a lot of sports writers said, Here, here. You are so accurate. Sports writers, no more than everyone. And I'm glad you're unveiling the truth.

Good boy. The headline here is the last dance. Michael Jordan shows us who he really is. Yeah, it's a documentary. It's not a movie. It's not fiction. Michael is showing us who he is, which is awesome and competitive and relentless and feisty as hell.

And sometimes he can be a little mean. scary. So are hedge fund guys. So are politicians. Mean happens all the time. In his opening paragraph, it says it's become harder to separate the entertainment and nostalgic value of the series from Jordan's agenda. Not really, not for anybody. Six million people watch every week and everybody loves it. From his desire to preserve his legacy, imagine that, settle scores and rub his status and greatness in the faces of his real and perceived rivals. One in particular, Jerry Krause. The Bulls' GM for 18 years has served a convenient function throughout the last dance.

He's been the series' primary source of narrative tension. Yeah. Because the overwhelming story of the last dance is the tension. That's why it's called the last dance. You do get the entire series. is about this season. And they go back and pluck different, you know, dramas and controversies throughout the course of Michael's greatness.

But it's called The Last Dance. And it's called The Last Dance because the Jerry Krause GM here who you're defending, who has passed away, rest in peace, told Phil Jackson, 82 and No, I'm not bringing you back. To break up the greatest dynasty ever. The entire documentary is called The Last Dance, which is what Phil. wrote on a binder and gave to the team before the season because he told him, I'm not coming back. Let's call this the last dance. So yes, the tension that Jerry Krause created is the title of the documentary.

That's why there is narrative tension centered around Jerry Krause. That's what the story's about. So that's what they keep talking about. And Jerry created that. By the way, the writer also says there is something cheap and unseemly and quite telling about the inclination to continue bullying a man who isn't around

to defend himself. No, Michael was tough on Jerry Krauss when he lived. So why should he be inauthentic and lie? Sports writers are looking some of them for soft, happy endings to this. Or a new Michael. Michael has been completely authentic. He hates Isaiah.

Did then, does now. Doesn't back away from it. Michael Jordan, business first over politics, then and now. Doesn't back away from it. Michael Jordan, gambled then and now, doesn't back away from it. Critiques of Jerry Krauss, ripped him then, rips him now. Sorry, this is not a movie. Where the great villain learns about himself, and by the end of the movie, he's a better person.

That's called a movie. This is a documentary. documentaries are supposed to be real and authentic looks at the primary story. Jerry Krause was going to blow up the best team ever. Now, it may have been Jerry Reinsdorf, as Charles Barkley said yesterday, very may well have been Reinsdorff's mission to be cheap, but Jerry Krause was such an insecure, as this writer does point out later in his article, Jerry was insecure.

He was a kid that got picked on. He could never get over it. Steve Kerr acknowledged during this, and Steve Kerr's a nice guy. He's like, I was there. Jerry Krause couldn't get out of his own way. So when I read these articles about this is unveiling a new Michael, no, it's not. It's delivering the exact Michael. Everything I thought about Michael before, I think about him now.

I think he's relentless. I think he's great. I think he's incredibly competitive. He's intense. He's an alpha male. And if he didn't like you, he'd confront you. He didn't back away from Isaiah. He didn't back away from Jerry Krause.

He wasn't passive-aggressive. He didn't have a burner phone. He'd go right after you. And that's why we love him. So this is not a movie. The Americas made their mind up. They like Michael more than an insecure general manager, who may have been in his private life a wonderful guy.

But there were so many missteps by Jerry Krause. telling Phil Jackson, 80-0, you're not back. Can you imagine if Bob Myers had told Steve Kerr that going into last year before's win for the Warriors? Let's not make Jerry Krause a victim here. Everybody in this documentary has come out just like we thought. Now, I do think Phil Jackson, who I had a great deal of respect for, I've got even more for him now. I'm like, there's so many spinning plates. I always thought Phil was the best coach in the NBA I'd ever seen.

Now he's the best psychologist in America and the best coach. So I do think all this stuff with Phil, I've kind of been blown away by his balancing act of Rodman and Krauss and Reinsdorf and Pippen. And it's his maturity and his emotional discipline has blown me away. Everybody else is landing exactly as I thought. In fact, I didn't ever cover the Bulls directly. I wish I would have. I know people that did. and I've had people on that did, but I didn't cover them directly.

But you didn't have to be a bulls insider to know Jerry Krauss and Jerry Reinsdorf were not ideal that Michael and Pippin and Phil were often working against them. And that's been portrayed. That's not bullying. That's not cheap. I mean, if I struggled with somebody my entire life and my career, thank God I haven't. But if they do a documentary someday and it will be low budget if they did on my career, I would tell you exactly what I felt then.

now. I wouldn't soft-pedal it. If I didn't like somebody, there's a couple sportscasters I don't like. I don't like them now and I'd tell you later. I didn't like them. That would be, that would be, now, if you gave the script to Hollywood, they'd have a happy ending. But that's not what we're doing here.

I think it's been a great documentary. I think sometimes when they go back in time of the dates, it's a little confusing for me as a viewer. I think some of that is, Jason Hare, the documentarian who I had in my podcast last week, the guy is rushed. literally started this thing airing it and they weren't finished.

They're still editing it. I mean, they're not done with this thing. It's a rush job. It is. They're having, they're not, they don't get nearly as much time. You don't want to start a documentary, start airing it and you haven't finished it. I mean, that's just not the way it works, right? You want it done.

You get production finished. But this idea that this is, we're all struggling with how brutal and ruthless Mike is. I don't think anybody I know struggling with it. I think it is absolutely, I think I respect Michael Moore because he's not a BSer. And maybe we're softer in society. Maybe we're all more evolved now and we should be nicer. But it's funny. Fans say and the numbers illustrate people used to like the NBA more in Michael Jordan's era.

It was tougher. The players were older. They were veterans. And research shows people liked them and people still buy more Michael's shoes than LeBron, Steph, Kevin Durant shoes combined. But part of that, like, I don't think the media really quite gets, we like the alpha. Like, I love the fact that Michael won't back down from his gambling, his Isaiah hate, his Republicans buy sneakers to, and calling out the management.

That's what, that's part of what I like. I'm not struggling at all with it. It makes me like it more. Because for years and years, people said you're an MJ hater. And I'm like, no, but he's not perfect. This is what I said on the air for years. I know a lot of guys that covered Michael. He's not perfect.

And you know what we're seeing during this documentary? He's not perfect. He's real. Michael is real. He can be a real pain in the butt. He can be real vindictive. He can be real petty. He can sometimes be real mean, but he's real.

And I'll take that. every day of the week instead of the social media posturing I see from everybody else. All right. Odell Beckham story. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Odell's talking. And if you are a critic of Odell Beckham, what he's saying, he puts a bullseye right in his back.

He just stepped right in to your angst with Odell Beckham. That's coming up. Be sure to catch live editions of the Hurstown. weekdays in noon Eastern 9 a.m. Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the IHeart Radio app. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source,

the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist,

Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough.

Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on Earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust.

I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free, our heart radio app, Search learn the hard way and listen now. What's up, guys?

This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Clivert Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff, like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this guy, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What?

Time out. Quarterback on office, Blue, 42. Hey, ref, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Where's he at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Lucas. and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game.

We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson,

we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He run up the court, licking his. his fingers why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass

up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1-800 Flowers has limited delivery on Mother's Day. Lock it in today. 1-800 Flowers, beautiful Mother Day Gifts and Bogays. Go there right now.

1-800flowers.com, enter the code H-E-R-D. J-A. Adonde will be joining us on about 10 minutes. He runs the journalism school at Northwestern, one of the great universities in America, and had a unique opportunity in his life to cover Kobe for the LA Times and cover MJ for the Chicago Tribune, or Chicago Sun Times, excuse me. So he's one of, I think he may be the only sports writer in America that covered Kobe and Michael, and that was his beat.

And he's going to talk about the story between the two. I'm really interested in that. But I saw this story yesterday. If you're a critic of OBJ. And in New York, the media was critical of him. They thought he was into OBJ more than winning. I think he's really talented. Sometimes I think he's high maintenance.

I'm not a huge fan of high maintenance people. So I have kind of a confirmation bias against anybody that I think is needy. They just wear me out. Cam Newton wears me out. I probably never gave him a fair shot, but OBJ sometimes, same thing. So yesterday he comes out, talks about his body, how it got beaten down last year. And he has struggled with injuries. You know, he's a guy out that little run routes over the middle.

he gets clobbered, he gets hurt, he's been injured. It's part of a real story, a real narrative now about him. But he says, this now is my time. This is probably going to be one of my best seasons. I'm bigger, stronger, this is my time. And my first thought is, okay, the critics of OBJ are going to say, oh, it's always your time. It's not our time. It's not us.

It's not we. It's not team. It's I, me. Look at my Bentley, look at my watches. And even his quote now, it's my time. It's actually not. It's Kevin Stavansky's time. It's his time to put in a new system.

There's two things here that need to be considered and discussed with OBJ saying it's his time. Number one, Cleveland has, in my opinion, the deepest arsenal outside of maybe the Kansas City Chiefs offensively in the NFL. They got two of everything. So if OBJ thinks he's going to have 95 catches and a dozen touchdowns, he's delusional. He's not going to get those touches. Number two is Kevin Stefanski likes to run the. football. Kirk Cousins was 24th in pass attempts. That's with Adam Thielen and Stefan Diggs. Cleveland also has two excellent running backs. Kevin Stefansky's also in a division with Baltimore

and Pittsburgh's pass rush. He's not going to put Baker Mayfield in the crosshairs 34 times and pass attempts. Cleveland's building a run first offense. Here's something else. Cleveland brought in an excellent tight end, Austin Hooper from Atlanta. Last year in 13 games, he have 75 catches. He's an 80 to 85 catch potential tight end. He's a volume tied end. Jarvis Landry, even in the mayhem last year in Cleveland, had like 80, 85 catches.

In Miami, it was 90. We suspect he'll get closer to his career average, 90. So Austin Hooper's going to get 75 to 80. Landry's going to get, you know, 85 to 90, 95. And they've got two excellent running backs and a new coach who likes to run the football. If OBJ thinks he's getting a bunch of touches and a bunch of touchdowns, he's off. And happiness is all about expectations. The data tells you this coach runs the football.

Austin Hooper is going to be a sponge in the middle of that defense. This is a new offense. And also, I would say this, Cleveland's going to be better. They're not going to be trailing in all their games like last year. If you look at Cleveland's schedule, there's a lot of. a wins on that schedule. They're not going to be throwing the ball in the fourth quarter in a lot of games. I think Cleveland's going to be a nine-win football team this year. Maybe 10, nine. I think it's a real football team. Just less chaos. But if you lead late in games, Kevin Stefansky is not going to be

dropping Baker Mayfield back to pass. So happiness is about expectations. And OBJ may think it's his time, but I think it's Kevin Stefanski's time. And frankly, if you ask me who else's time at was, I'd say Baker Mayfield. He's going to win the coach's approval, or he's gone. And he's not going to win it throwing to OBJ. He's going to win at winning games. And you're going to win games in this league if you have a running game. You've got to have some semblance of a running game.

This was the first year New England couldn't run the football. It was their worst year in years. Here's Joy with the News. No, no, no, no. Turn on the news. This is the herd line news. Well, you like what the Giants. did this off season.

I do. They're an interesting team going into this year. And Daniel Jones will get a chance to lead the Giants from the very beginning of the season after taking over for Eli Manning last year. And Eli said on Sirius XM NFL radio yesterday that he thinks Jones will benefit from not having him in the room anymore. I think it'll be easier this year for him to kind of step up as that leader. Just, you know, last year it's probably awkward for him, you know, me being there,

be being in meeting rooms and just kind of the whole dynamic. I think me being gone and him just, he is the quarterback, he's the guy for him just to have that control and the authority over receivers and offensive line. I think he's proven to be tough and work hard. He's done all the right things he has kind of gone in that approach of keeping his head down and not saying more than he has to and working hard and earning the respect from the teammates. And I think now he can elevate that where he's, you know, now he's in charge. It's an interesting perspective. It probably was awkward for Daniel Jones last year. Sure, sure.

I mean, if you're in a quarterback room and the coach asks the question, who answers first? The guy with two Super Bowls? Right. So there is something to that. Eli said this will be a hard off season for Daniel Jones because of, you know, everything that's happening. He's going to be behind it a little bit, you know, trying to implement a new offense and all of that. And obviously there's a new head coach there as well. But this is something.

There's all these underlying dynamics within teams that we kind of forget about sometimes. I don't think I would have ever thought about what it's like for Daniel Jones to be in the quarterback room or in meetings with Eli Manning. Even if he is starting, you know, who's the leader? Who's really in charge? It's obviously still in a large way, Eli Manning's team and franchise. So this is a new fresh start for Daniel Jones and Giants and an opportunity for him to step up. So the Eagles drafted a quarterback, Jalen Hertz, in the second round this year, but Carson Wentz says he isn't worried about that affecting his position on the team.

I had a feeling there's a chance if we'd want to draft somebody, just given the way our roster is laid out and trying to get younger and stuff. So there's no concern for me. I think the team showed their investment in me last year. And, you know, I have nothing but confidence in faith in them. And, you know, they have nothing but confidence in faith with me. So, you know, I think it's all just about strengthening that position and this group that we have. For me, it doesn't matter who's in the room with me.

I'm the most motivated person in that room. I strongly believe that just because that's how I'm wired. As much as I didn't like what the Packers did in the draft with the quarterback, I really like what the Eagles did. I like Jalen Hertz to begin with, and I think it's just a good situation. And obviously, we know what Carson Wentz's injury history is. So if you're bringing in Jalen Hertz, who's very athletic and, you know, still a little raw to bring up to be the back. up for Carson Wentz and very well may see some time on the fields based up of

Wentz's history this is a good situation and Carson Wentz should understand that I mean obviously you know you're competitive and and it's your spot and you really the guy and there's you know all those those naturally egotistical things going on when you bring in someone else at your position but you also have to have some self-awareness this is this is the way things have gone for Carson Wentz they gave him his contract he has his extension he's safe we know that it's his team and he's very talented and I think last year really I mean at least for me The way that he carried the team last year with all the injuries that they had.

It was he really earned my respect last year. And his body is what it is. We'll see what happens moving forward. But he really showed what he had in him at the end of last year. Finally, Andy Dalton is heading to Dallas to back up Dak Prescott. And he made an appearance on Adam Schefter's podcast to discuss why becoming a cowboy was the best situation for him right now. Once I got released at that point, I had to figure out, okay, what's going to be best for me, what's going to be best for my future. and just for the next 10 years for me.

And so I just weighing all the options, you know, I had several options out there and I had to figure out what was the best situation for me to go into that was going to set me up for this next half of my career. And so, you know, I felt like it was the best opportunity, you know, for this year. And it hopefully set me up for my future. I think that this was a big picture plan. I think Andy Dolan is being very smart with his career. He's obviously still hoping for starting job.

next year. He'll be a free agent. He wants to work with Mike McCarthy, who has a excellent track record with quarterbacks. And he already has a home in Dallas. He lives there in the offseason. So this was a perfect situation for him to be. It really was. It's, you know, what you're seeing is Teddy Bridgewater, not the most talented guy, coachable, respectful, focused, gets a job. Andy Dalton on the market for about a day. again, coachable, respectful. You can bring him into the locker room, gets a job. This, what the NFL's telling you, all the teams are telling you, Marcus Mariotta, was able to get another job.

Nick Foles, able to get another job. If you're focused, you're a good person, you keep your head down, you're not distracted. The NFL community wants to give you a job. That's why I say about Cam. Cam comes off as talented, but sometimes distracted, unfocused. not totally committed. And people say, well, the injury, let's stop there. If Patrick Mahomes couldn't get a physical, you'd still sign Patrick Mahomes.

Right. The NFL's telling you what they like. They like Teddy Bridgewater, Andy Dalton. If you're a grinder and you're, and you come into a room and you make, you lubricate the room, they'll give you chances, even if you're not gifted. I mean, nobody really thinks Marioita, it doesn't work. But he got a nice contract. And Teddy got a really nice contract.

So I think, by the way, Jalen Hertz went second round. Now, that's before most people thought, what's the story on Jalen Hertz? What a great kid he is. His story's incredible how he dealt with two are replacing him. So once again, the NFL is telling you, this is what we like from our quarterbacks. Well, yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone can accuse Cam of not being tough, obviously. Oh, he's tough. He plays through injuries, and he is far more talented than a lot of the guys.

that you just mentioned. But I really wonder what the GMs and what the coaching staff and players are saying about Cam, what the scout on him is. Because we know what he does on the field. We know what his talent level is. And we know what he does off the field. I mean, he's Walter Payton Man of the Year finalists. So it's not, those aren't the issues.

So what is it in the locker room that's the issue that these other guys are not having? Because again, like you said, you don't really need a physical. We know that Cam has passed. He's going to be able to play. Right. You know, regardless of whatever this is. that they really wanted to evaluate them, they could figure out a way to do it. So what is the actual issue.

That's what I'm curious about. Joy with the News. Well, that's the news. And thanks for stopping by. The Heard Lye News. Director of Sports Journalism at the prestigious Northwestern Middle School of Journalism, J. Adande, has the rare distinction of covering Michael Jordan for the Chicago Sun Times and then the late Kobe Bryant for the Los Angeles Times.

And I believe he's the only sports writer in America who, ever had that distinction. There was a lot of national reporters or columnists who could, you know, on an individual game cover them, but it's a very unique situation. He's joining us now sponsored by Mercedes-Benz the best or nothing. So let's start, first of all, Jay. Thank you for coming on. Let's start with Michael. And so I imagine, as you watch this documentary, it is to some degree, some confirmation of stuff you already kind of knew, right? It is. It hasn't been revelatory for me. First of all, nice to be on with you, Colin. It hasn't been revelatory for me or for, I think, any of the people that you see

quoted in there or who had been around. But what it is is for everyone else to get a chance to see it. And the one thing I do appreciate is hearing Michael discuss it with the benefit of perspective and, you know, hearing him look back and just seeing how unwilling he is to let certain things go, in particular the grudge with Isaiah Thomas. But you see what resonates with him. You see what sticks with him. But I think it's a chance for other people to see. It's funny. Some of these stories that he's telling, in particular of the time he went to go to retrieve Dennis Rodman, when Rodman was AWOL, I had heard those stories before. I think it's fun that now, okay, now without being discussed publicly,

we can all share in these stories. You know, I defend him on the gambling issue. I said, listen, me gambling $100 is Michael gambling $50,000 on a golf game. He is a relentless competitive guy. And, you know, it shows him with security guards, you know, flipping quarters up against the wall. He didn't hide from it. That's who he is. He let himself be miced when he golfed, miced when he was flipping coins up against the wall.

You know, the gambling issues, again, that was pretty much understood. Do you think he addressed those appropriately? I think so. It's weird. He doesn't come off as super convincing. I believe him, but just his tone when he's defending himself

against certain things is weird. And maybe in part because he's not in practice of having to defend himself. He wasn't in that position a lot throughout his career. You know, all the exalted Michael Jordan. He didn't have to be defensive. So he comes off as a little defensive here. one of the rare times that he's being asked to do so.

But you got at it. The desire that he has, has anyone been as driven by money as Michael Jordan? The drive that he had to become the most marketed athlete in the world, certainly the most marketed athlete in team sports, in American team sports, unprecedented levels of endorsement dollars for an African-American team sport player, had the chance to get the highest salary, in NBA history twice.

Comes back for the Bulls in the late 90s and has a $30 million contract and a $36 million contract. And that was important. And it had been important to him for a while. Magic Johnson, while covering the 93 finals for NBC would sit around and chat with the media.

And he told us if one thing Michael hasn't had is that distinction of being the highest paid player in the game. And that was something that he'd wanted for a long time, wasn't able to finally get it until 96. And so you saw Michael's desire just to have money at all costs. And it wasn't about the need for the money when it came to, you know, tossing quarters against the security guy for $20. But it was just desire to get your money, to beat you by taking your money.

I had Charles Barkley on yesterday, J.A. Adonda, joining us. And I said, listen, as an African-American, you can have an opinion on this. And mine doesn't really count as much. I see it from the outside. I said, I do think we ask so much of our athletes and so many have to overcome situations in their life that by the time they get to their professional status, I just appreciate them. I'm not going to hold them accountable for great political savvy or great business acumen. I just appreciate, I can separate, first of all, art from artist. We're all flawed.

But I think it's unfair looking back that we asked Michael to be an activist or care about. something politics, which he had almost no interest in. But that's my perspective. What is your perspective on that? I've always wished and wanted and hoped that he would do more, but I don't think it's a major detraction. One thing I was thinking, okay, what if he had endorsed hard again? Would that have made a difference? Would that have changed enough minds to get him elected? He did support him and make donations to his campaign. Yes, he did. So do you think that matters more than his endorsement? You know, LeBron James endorsed Hillary Clinton in 2016, and Donald Trump still won in the state of Ohio.

So part of it is what difference would have made. Also, I don't look for our athletes, our entertainers, to provide leadership in that. That's not their area of expertise. Thank you. You know, and especially today when we have an African-American former president. I'm interested in his political opinions and Barack Obama's endorsements. Those carry much more weight to me than what an athlete or entertainer does. And also, what if he'd been outspoken, but we disagreed with him.

That's right. You know, like, there's no guarantee that people are going to say what you want them to say. So I think what it was was that we wanted them to say things. You know, it's funny. Like I look at Mark Hamill's tweet on social media. He's very politically outspoken. And I think, like, yeah, this is cool. you know, Luke Skywalker agrees with me.

But what difference does it make, ultimately? You know, it maybe makes me feel better. I think it makes people feel better if the people that they look up to hold the same views as them, right? And I think that's what we want. Yeah. But all it does is make us feel better. I'm not sure it makes that much of a difference.

And I do think you can make a difference behind the scenes. And Michael did do some things behind the scenes. And yes, he could have done more in front of the cameras. And spoken out, you know, maybe he could have spoken out more. for people who didn't have the advantages in the luxury that he did. I'm not sure he did that enough, but I know he did do things to support people who didn't have as much. And, you know, just go to the media guide for the Charlotte Hornet and look at the directory

and look at the diversity of the staff that I would say is higher than the typical professional sports front office. And I think you can say he's made a difference in that way. Yeah, I've told sports writers or sports media people in my. life. Chuck Todd can barely change my mind politically. A sportscaster can't. So you're doing this for an add-a-boy. You know, you're doing this for validation or preening or projecting on social media. You're not going to change anybody's vote. So don't screw your career up. Jay Adonde is joining us. So I want to shift to Kobe now. Did you ever talk to Michael about young Kobe? And what did he say,

J.A.? I did. I happen to be in D.C. when Kobe was on one of those stretches scoring 40 points every game. And I asked Michael about it. This is when Michael was playing for the Wizards. And he said, you know, I'd see in him that same desire to separate himself from his peers that I had, you know, the way that I wanted to separate from Clyde Drexler or Charles Barkley. And he wanted to separate from, I forget who was being compared at the time.

Maybe Alan Iverson, Trace McGrady, Vince Carter. And he saw that. And, you know, we've come to learn both from Michael at, at Kobe's memorial and Kobe in this documentary they were able to interview him before he passed away talking about the relationship that they had

and they did have this bond and part of it was just that ultra competitive fury that drive that they had I used to see Kobe one time he was injured the 0304 season and he had nothing better to do so before the game he would

challenge and bet you know members of the media like Michael Thompson the former Laker who was on their radio broadcast crew. Other reporters around, he tried to engage me. I knew better than to bet against Kobe Bryant. I was not going to bet against Kobe Bryant. So he did stuff like could he make a half-court shot left-handed?

His right shoulder was injured, so he was shooting everything left-handed. And could he make one from half-court if he gave him three tries? And, you know, if he did, you had to do like 50 push-ups or 100 push-ups. You know, they were kind of low stakes. He wasn't going to try to bankrupt you. he would bet the ball boys in Miami. He'd give him a pair of shoes if they beat him in a shooting contest. If he won, they had to run the steps in the arena.

And, of course, he won. And I just remember this grin on his face as the kids running up and down the steps and coping says, isn't competition great? It makes everything better. Yeah, a lot of similarities with me. Those guys had to turn everything into competition, everything. Yeah.

Sometimes our greatest strengths are our personal frailties. And that's the reality of Michael is he was hyper aggressive and sometimes to the point where it could be mean-spirited or overwhelming. You work in a college campus now as the director of sports journalism at Northwestern. You know, when Kobe passed away, your students grew up watching Kobe, but they probably didn't grow up watching MJ. But do you sense the last dance? Do you sense his influence on your college campus even for 18, 19, 20, 21?

year olds? Well, it's certainly been there with the Air Jordans. I mean, you walk on campus, kids still born long after Michael's heyday or walking around wearing Air Jordan and really value them. What they're seeing, so Melissa Isaacson, my colleagues who covered Michael for the Chicago Tribune in the 90s, she's on our faculty, and her and I do a chat with our graduate sports students, sports journalism students, every Sunday during the airings of the last dance, just to answer any questions they might have just tell some behind the scene stories of covering michael and the bulls and i think it's fun for them and they they really are just amazed i think at how driven he was how great he was how big those bulls teams were just everything they did mattered

how larger than life they seemed how outrageous Dennis rodman was all of it i think they it's difficult to relate and i said i kind of compare it to when when people watch the u 30 for 30 on University of Miami football team and just how wild and outrageous they were and you just can't fathom a football team acting that way. You just can't fathom the circumstances of this team in part because they didn't have social media. I think Michael Jordan and the Bulls would have been destroyed

by social media and the internet. It's best for everyone involved that those things weren't around back then. But just the way the coverage that existed before social media and the way that this team could exist, And they couldn't be demythologized as easily. You know, if we were seeing them, the people were tweeting stuff that I saw Michael go in here and doing this.

So there was this mythology around them, and that carries to this day. I could spend an hour talking to you about this. As you know, having been in this business, there are restrictions on time. But I just, I just, I. Hard out. Is that what you're saying, Tom? We got a hard out. Well, you do a great job.

I'm very, very happy for you. And I just find that your perspective on. this is fascinating. I'd like to bring you back if I couldn't about a month when this whole thing's over for another opportunity because I feel I'm shortchanging myself, you and the audience here. But congratulations on your career ascension and I'm very happy that you came on with this today and keep kicking butt. You're spreading the right messages to those journalism students in a great American city and a university Northwestern. And please come back on again when this thing is over. I'd love to hear more.

I'd love to. And it's not like we're going to have anything else to talk about a month from now. So I'd love to visit me. Great to talk to again, Colin. All right, J.A. Adonde, the unique perspective of the Lakers, Kobe with the L.A. Times. And then he covered, he worked for ESPN. That he covered Jordan and the Bulls. I could be wrong on this.

I don't think there's another member of the media in the country that covered both. It's fascinating to me. I wish I could give you 25 more minute to that. I could have gone forever on that. stuff. But as you know, time restraints ensue. Coming up next, we're getting ridiculous with Joe Burrell. And I'm starting to feel bad for Joe Burrell. I'll talk about that next. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending,

opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice. on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kier Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests.

I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase. that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross,

because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth,

fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game.

This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Look. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Wreck, my mama want you to weigh better. What? Hey, Ms. Parker.

Listen to the Cliverts show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves,

I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers while he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah. You figure it out real quick.

Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Joe Burroughs a nice quarterback prospect. He's not nearly as talented as Justin Fields or certainly Trevor Lawrence, the Clemson quarterback.

But it's remarkable to me that because Joe Burrell, on a significantly better team, at 23 years old, he'll be 24 soon, beat a 20-year-old Trevor Lawrence with an inferior team, Clemson, LSU was a better team. They had 15 guys drafted, five in the first round, or 14 guys drafted this year, five in the first round. That's insane. And there's an argument to be made, and I don't have a lot of pushback that LSU is the best college football team for a season ever.

I don't have a lot of pushback. They beat seven, like, top 25 teams or something. I don't have it in front of me, but it's hard to argue. They beat everybody and often convincingly. But Mel Kuiper was on an ESPN show this morning, get up, and he's talking about, well, because of that game, you saw it, Burrell is way better than Trevor Lawrence as a prospect. How can you see those two on the field in that final game and think Joe Burrow wouldn't have gone number one over Trevor Lawrence, considering Lawrence was struggling in the game prior

of that against Ohio State until, like I said, Sean Wade left that football game. in that game turn. So I think, no question Joe Burrow would have been a lot guaranteed to be the number one pick to the Bengals. Not a single GM I know thinks that, not one. Joe Burrough is a fifth year, 23-year-old senior who didn't do anything, could not beat out J.T. Barrett, Dwayne Haskins. Couldn't beat him out.

J.T. Barrett. It's a scout team guy in the league. Trevor Lawrence was so good that he goes to Clemson. The coaching staff says Kelly Bryant, you're 12 and 2 last year. Sit down. 19-year-old's better. Trevor's just 20 now. At 19, he walked into a program that was on fire that had won a national championship.

Here's Kelly Bryant, goes 12 and 2 the next year. They sat him for a 19-year-old. High school, not close. I saw Trevor Lawrence play in high school. It's bigger than Burrough, stronger, better arm, bigger hands, better athlete, everything. This is totally unfair. As a freshman, Trevor Lawrence, 30 touchdowns, four picks.

No redshirt year. Just go play. It's not close. To say that Burrow beat Trevor Lawrence head-to-head proves anything, is Nick Foles better than Tom Brady? Because I watch the Super Bowl. What does that prove? Larry Bird's team beat Michael Jordan Lott.

So did Isaiah Thomas's team. Doesn't prove anything. Michael was better. So this downgrading Trevor Lawrence because he lost to probably the best college football team ever makes no sense. In fact, there's an article today. Joe Burrow draws concerns from anonymous NFL general manager. He's Alex Smith-like. According to Mike Sando, Mike's really good, the athletic.

The GM compared Burrow to Alex Smith. He said, quote, he doesn't have a lot of power strength in his arm at all. all. He's a one-year producer. Love his brain. His short accuracy. He's Alex Smith. In fact, Burroughs 6-4-220, Smith was 6-4-2-13. They're even built alike. I've said Burroughs more Tony Romo, but I think Romo and Alex Smith, talent-wise, pretty darn close. I'd take Romo by an inch. So I just think it's incredible that because of a singular game, Trevor Lawrence had never lost a football game until LSU. And people say, well, you know, he's struggling. against Ohio State.

Against Ohio State, Trevor Lawrence threw for 260 yards, two TDs, no picks, rushed for 107 yards in a touchdown, and they won. That's struggling? And that was the best Ohio State team people said ever. People were saying that was the best Big Ten team ever. So I think it's incredible how unfair we are to this kid. He's a really nice quarterback prospect. Trevor Lawrence is almost four years younger than him.

He's a kid. Trevor Lawrence is sealing. He's not even close to it yet. Get your free credit scorecard today, even if you're not a Discover customer and include your FICA credit score and checking your scorecard will not hurt your credit. Learn more. Discover.com slash credit scorecard.

Discover.com slash credit scorecard. Limitations apply. Joe Burrell's not Trevor Lawrence. No, he's not the herd. One more herd? The herd streams 24 hours a day, seven days a week within the IHeart radio app. Search herd to listen live or on demand whenever you'd like.

Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies,

and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kier Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing.

and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth, or are you a good person because you're afraid?

Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast.

Learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the hard way and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee.

We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue 42. A rep. My mom, I want you.

you to way better. What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before.

And he knows. Without Luca. And Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He run up the court, licking his finger. is why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, I said, you figure it out real quick.

Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is The Herd, wherever you may be, however you may be listening, live in Los Angeles, IHeart Radio, Fox Sports Radio, and FS1. Brian Cox is going to be joining us.

The Super Bowl champ, the multiple-time Pro Bowl. Boulder. Talk about a rare distinction. He played under Parcells, Belichick, and the late Don Shula, and Shula had great impact on him because the last years, Don Shula coached in the NFL, which is over two decades ago, 25 years ago, Brian Cox was coming into the NFL as Don Shula was exiting the NFL, so we'll talk to Brian Cox about that. Jay Adande was on earlier. I just love having him on. Former reporter for the L.A. Times and the Chicago Sun Times covered MJ and Kobe. You know, he said something during it. He defended Michael Jordan on not taking a political stance, and he said, would it have mattered?

And this has always been my takeaway to people in my profession. I'm like, who are you trying to, you have no influence on sports. Forget politics. I have a massive audience. It's debatable if I have any influence in sports. You think I have influence on politics? And people go, well, celebrities in Hollywood give out endorsements, and they mean nothing. How do I know that?

Because none of them endorsed Joe Biden, and they all hate Trump, and that's who's running for president. They all backed Bernie and Elizabeth Warren and Betta O'Rourke and Mayor Pete. They all had endorsements. None of them were Joe Biden fans because he wasn't cool and lit. He wasn't trendy. He's old and forgetful and comfortable and not cool, and he's running for president. So the Hollywood endorsements, and they're generally way more politically engaged than sportscasters, Hollywood endorsements mean nothing.

Sports endorse. I've seen people torpedo their careers in my field with political stuff. Michael Jordan's like, what's the win? What's the win on this? The idea, LeBron in Ohio had no impact. Endorsed Hillary. She lost. So, I mean, if LeBron James in Ohio can't have impact, boy, that tells you something, right?

People have made their minds up in America. conservatives watch Fox liberals watch MSNBC people you can't change people's minds anymore you really can't so I mean even reasonable people now we've all made up our minds you like Trump or not you're not going to somebody that doesn't like him

is not going to like him like it's over if you've already made your mind up on Trump you're in it or out and you're not going to move any of those people I always consider myself to be an independent and I've already made my mind up he wears me out okay Joy Taylor's joining me So I thought J.A. Adonde offered this perspective, kind of defending Michael, which is Michael made a decision.

I'll give you money. I'll give you, I'll give you a donation, which can really help a candidate. But I'm not going to publicly put myself out there. I was always okay with that. Like that's, in my business, Jason Whitlock's very political. I'm not. I'm good with it. I'm okay. You know, he's political. Well, he likes politics. Clay Travis likes politics. I'm not into him as much. I mean, I am, but I don't. don't see the value of me going out and telling you for against. Vote for who you want. It's your vote.

I'm not going in the booth. You are. Who am I to tell you who to vote for? It's not how I roll. Brian Cox, you guys give me an update. He's there. Oh, there's Brian's already ready. Super Bowl champ, three-time pro bowler, had the distinction of playing for Don

Shulip, Bill Parcells, and Bill Belichick. So let me just start with this, Brian. First of all, I love having you on. I love talking to you, and we miss you. give me Don Shuliffe I said what was the impact because he was leaving coaching

as you were in the NFL what was his primary impact for you going forward I'd have to say Colin I'd have to say probably trust commitment and I'd probably say

probably the biggest thing that I take away was his patience with me being a tough player to deal with. His patience and his love for me probably allowed me to trust coaches and people moving forward more than anything. That's interesting. So you saw yourself as difficult. And when you say he trusted you, did he, did he want to know you? Did he, was it more than just coaching?

Yeah, yeah. After I left Miami and he retired. When I was living out in California and he came out there to open up the season's 52 out there. He called and invited my wife and I and we went over there. So I'd see him in places and stuff and he had a love for me and I had a love for him. But what I mean when I say patience is those times when I crossed the line was over-emotional and had to go to his office to see him, he would lay in to me pretty good.

But at the end of all of those meetings, he would always end with, I love you, let's figure out a way to get a win this week. And that's something that stayed with me, the patience that he had, the ability to teach and not get overly emotional. When you look at coaches in this day and age, this era, you look at coaches that run players out of town

because they can't handle them, you know, to the, to the, I think it probably hurts their team. Yeah. And I say that when you look at OBJ, when Sharma and that regime ran him out of New York, not only did you lose a good receiver that hurts your chances of winning, but you took a player out of the locker room that could help you. And like if Coach Schumer would have did that to me, I think it would have had a real negative effect. So I'm appreciative. When you look at Adam Gaines when he was in Miami, how he got rid of Ajaya and he got rid of all those players.

It's like you've got to be able to deal with wrong men and be able to get them to buy into the team concept. And that's what I appreciate most about Coach Shula. You know, it's funny because when you're talking about that, and I think about Bill Parcells, who was kind of a legendary psychologist, did you ever see similarities with Shula and Parcells at all? Well, I try not to compare anybody. and, you know, that's a lesson I learned from Parcells. But at the end of it, playing for Parcells, Belichick, and Shula, how do you define greatness? They're all great.

How do you compare greatness? They're great. And when you think about Don Shula as a coach, he had two losing seasons in 33 years. Crazy. Right? He had three Hall of Fame quarterbacks. Most people can't coach one Hall of Fame quarterback. He had three.

Countless number of Hall of Fame players. I mean, the man was a better man than he was a coach. And when you talk about his coaching ability, it's monumental. Yeah, I love hearing that. Brian Cox, by the way, who's always a great guest on any of our Fox Sports shows. You know, as we battle this virus, it's been interesting. The draft was a phone business, a Zoom business, free agency. And I look at all of this and how we're adapting.

And I've said, Brian, I think this is going to be a year where veteran players, veteran coaches, people who are good at adapting are going to have a huge edge. When you look going forward, no OTAs, perhaps a smaller preseason, that feels like a veteran team with a veteran quarterback or even a Mahomes read that have been together three years. Does it feel like to you that'll be a significant edge this year? Well, I think that's always a significant edge because even though we're in an age now where we have to use technology, in the past, it's been the teams that's been able to adapt and change things that didn't work and improve and better things in that system that's always been able to win. So the best coaches, this won't change. The best coaches and the best managers of teams will still be successful. Brian Cox is joining us. So your takeaway when Green Bay drafted a quarterback in the first round,

Aaron is older and has had injuries. And Green Bay has a history of drafting the next quarterback way in advance. That said, I would get if Aaron Rogers didn't love it. I'm not going to ask you to guess what Aaron Rogers thought, but were you okay with Green Bay in the first? round using that pick for Jordan Love? Absolutely. I'm okay with it. I think at the end of the day, when you are, when you are an organization, you have to do what's best for you. And when you look at it, if I'm Aaron

Rogers, I'm saying, okay, this is what they did to Brett Faw when they brought me in. Okay, I'm a competitor. I'm great. I got a job to do. However long I'm here, let me go out and do the best job that I can to the ability. Now, selfishly, you wished it okay with that first rounder. They would have drafted somebody that can help me win right now. But at the end of the day, it's a business. And if they can let Tom Brady lead New England, they can let Brett Forbes leave Green Bay.

They can do it to anybody. They can let Joe Montana leave San Francisco. Anybody can be gone. So when you look at it from that standpoint, the team did what's best for them. The best thing that Aaron Rogers can do is go out there and play well and maybe hold Jordan Love on the, bench for the next four or five years.

Were you ever on a team that drafted a linebacker? And the messaging was, hey, Brian, this guy could replace you. Whoever you brought in here, I'm better than they are. I mean, that was the way I thought. And, you know, for better or worse, my emotion wouldn't allow me to think that somebody was better than me. It was like, this is my field and I'm just allowing you to play on it. So that's just the way we're going.

And that mindset, for better or worse, got me over-emotional at times. And I can say that now because I'm matured. But when you're in that storm, you don't see that. I'm just angry. I was the angry man. I was the angry black man for real because I never wanted to go back to where I came from. That's really fascinating. I'm watching the last dance and the Michael Jordan documentary.

and, you know, Michael, for whatever reasons, was a relentless, and maybe it's because he was overlooked in high school. But I think sometimes people want Michael to change, and he's doubled down on Isaiah. He's doubled down on the gambling. He's doubled down on Republicans buy sneakers, too. He's doubled down on criticism of Jerry Krause. And we're trying to change Michael, and I'm like, no, this is who Michael is.

It's funny that you acknowledge I was kind of an angry guy. But I would argue, Brian, that's your jet fuel. You're not the same guy without that, are you? No, you're not. But for many years, I tried to figure out what was it? You know, I was angry, but I was angry because I never wanted to go back into a situation and raise my kids the way I was raised. And I was playing out of fear, the fear of failure, the fear of not being adequate. enough. And it took me years. I think maybe within the last five years, I just recognized that.

Whereas if I had someone to come up to me that was able to say, okay, Brian, here's how we're going to deal with this. This is what it is. You know, I had to deal with it on my own because people were afraid to talk to me. And so I understand Michael's edge because that's what makes you great. But it also, off the field, opens you up the criticism. Did you, if I can, did you go to get therapy or something? How did you solve the riddle? How did you do it? Well, I did get therapy.

I had a doctor in Houston when I was living in Houston that did a wonderful job, and I've seen some other people. But that all came of fear of failure, and I didn't realize it. I always thought like I was just mean and tough, and you know, you get to hear people say, this guy's crazy. This guy's on drugs. But when it all comes down, when it all bogged, you have to go. to the root cause, the root problem. And I was scared to not be adequate enough and not be a good enough father and a good enough provider to take care of my kids.

And that's what my whole foundation of anger was. God, I just, I love when people can just open up about stuff like that. Brian Cox is joining us. For the record, you were in New England a few years. Shocked, Brady left. I kind of was. Were you? No.

No. I think it's been in the mix for about. six or seven years. I think that Bill Belichick thought Tom Brady was done four or five years ago. And I thought that the egos got in the way of both men. I think when you look at Tom's situation, I need to have more leeway and more say because I've delivered these championships. And when you look at Belichick's thoughts, his thoughts are we have a system in place that it's the New England way.

we're going to win regardless of who's there. And when men get into those competitions to see who got the biggest penis, usually the whole organization hurts because it becomes a meat fest at that point. And so, you know, Belichick had a plan and he orchestrated it for this day to come. He envisioned this.

I can promise you, he knew that this day would come. And he took himself out of it and he let Mr. Crab deal with Tom and he knew that the salary cap situation wasn't going to work. And he wanted this outcome. And so now without Tom, he can feel like I can prove I can win without him, okay? And I didn't have to take a quarterback in the draft because it wasn't one I liked. So that tells me that he likes Judge Stittem, you know, quite a bit.

Or he feels like one of the former Patriots off the tree, Jacoby Brissette, one of them quarterbacks are going to become available at the end of training camp and he'll get a quarterback at that point. But, you know, he knew that this day was coming. And for Tom Brady to get out, Tom was tired of everybody saying it was Bill Belichick. It's the way, it's the offense, it's the system, the way it's set up, that he wants to prove that he can do it without Bill. And it's going to be interesting to see.

I thought, you know, fortunately for me, I play with Marino. I think he's the greatest quarterback I've ever seen, and he has no championships. And then I put John Elware's second best quarterback that I've ever seen with my own eyes. So it would be interesting to see if Tom Brady can go to Tampa and deliver a championship the way everybody's saying. On paper, they look good. But I don't know if he can pull it off. By the way, how's your family? Are you in Houston right now?

No, I live in Atlanta. I'm down in McDonnell County, and the family's good. We've been pent up. You know, I got a daughter who was teaching English in China. And then when this virus started, she got back to the States in mid-February, my wife got her to come back to the States. And she's saying she wants to go back to China. She loves living in China. Wow.

She says a great deal, but I'm a little nervous. But she said, Dad, if you think about it, the virus started in China. They got a two or three-month head start on us. So they're starting to dry up and they get clean. It's safer to be in China than it is Americans. So I said, baby, you've grown. Whatever your decision now. I'll live with.

Man, I love having you on the show. I miss seeing you. I appreciate it. I miss you too, brother. Brian Cox, one of the really good dudes. I learn stuff every time I talk to Brian Cox. Hey, man, thanks. You're welcome.

Well, good dude. Great stories. Isn't it great stories? He's like, man, I'm just, I love when a big tough guy can go, yeah, I just, I was living out of fear. It's like, it's so great. Such great messaging for people out there who may be angry. figure out why the hell you're angry.

Well, think about it. I mean, during Brian's playing days, did you want to be the one to walk up to him and ask him why he was angry? No, no. He was great, but he played with an edge. You know, I think it's funny. Like, that's, you know, we ask people to be, you know, what made Michael Jordan great and Kobe great is an edge.

And that edge can be off-putting, you know? Yeah, but that's why it's an edge. Yes, that's why it's an edge. So we want him to turn it off when they go home. And it's like, some guys can. and Michael is kind of competitive all the time. I don't know if you have an edge that you can necessarily turn it off. I think competition you can,

but if you are that kind of personality, it doesn't really ever turn off. I mean, it's clearly never turned off for Michael. My wife jokes at my competitiveness. I was competitive with everybody until I had my kids. And I told my daughter this one time. I said, your mom and I are going to be the only people in your life.

Regardless of what people tell you, even friends, we really are rooting for you. Friends can tell you they're rooting for you and your boss can tell you. But it's like, no, we really are rooting for you. Like, we'll root for you over us. Your success over ours. And it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, the kids are a major life shift. Oh, God, they change. I used to go on airplanes, Joy.

And if I heard a kid crying, I was always like, God, that's annoxious kid. the second I had a kid, and I went on a plane, and I heard a kid crying, I thought, oh, those poor parents, oh, those poor parents behind me, I feel such sympathy for those parents. Literally the second I had kids, I'm like, oh, that's going to be me. Oh, my God, my kid's going to be crying and biting me and biting passengers, and I'm going to be sitting there and I can't. Biting passengers? That's a little extreme. Kids are crazy.

My son went through a biting stage. Coming up next, NFL schedule is released coming up Thursday. It's Tuesday. That'll be Thursday. Two teams I'm really interested to look at their schedules. One's not good. And one is good. And I think both could be unraveled a little bit or assisted by the schedule makers.

That's coming up. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1 and the IHeart Radio app. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet. It lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with. so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people

scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff.

Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This is a little. linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, rec, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Ms. Parker.

Listen to the Clippers show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? This Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before.

And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us every.

everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah. You figure it out real quick.

Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Although our part of these days, we're sharing more. Geico sharing more too. The Geico give back 15% credit car motorcycle policies for both current and new customers that lasts your full policy term. Visit geico.com slash giveback for info and eligibility. Penny Hardaway is joining us in the last hour. And my buddy, a former NFL scout John Middlough, in about 15 minutes. Here's Joy Taylor with the news.

This is the herd line news. One of my favorite all-time players, Marciaun Lynch, came out of retirement, who rejoined the Seahawks for the end of last season, gave him a little spark. Yeah. And he said on SportsCenter last night that it's possible he comes back again for 2020. Well, I mean, it's almost on that expecting, you're unexpected. But I mean, you know, just as far as right now, what I do know is I'm going to keep a silent, like is that, you know, my agent has been in talk with Seattle.

So like I said, we'll see what happening. If you work out and they, I mean, it. and I get back up there, it is what it is. And I mean, if not, I'm living good, so I ain't really tripping too much. He's just the best. It's not out of the realm of possibility. I mean, nobody really thought he was coming back last year,

and he came back and, you know, did what he needed to do for a short amount of time. Frank Gore just signed a one-year deal with the Jets. He turns 37 this month. Yeah. You know, there is no age anymore. And he came back. You don't need him to be a star or if Marshawn can come and, you know, like Frank Gore. He's a good blocking back. He can catch the pass occasionally. I mean,

you're not asking Marshawn Lynch to be a 27 carry game back. Right. Of course. There's many different roles, especially at the running back position. He came back before week 17 of last season after all the injuries to the Seahawks backfield. You know, Rashad Penny towards ACL, Chris Carson had a fractured hip. And he just turned 34 in April. So he's actually much younger than Frank Gore. Obviously, Frank Gore is in a different category altogether. He's, he's some just unbelievable career. But I'm excited to see if this happens. It's, you know, keep, keep playing as long as you can.

Again, Marshawn Lynch is a, you know, he's his own man. He's going to do whatever suits him the best. But I'm looking forward to seeing if that happens. So Payton Manning has been preparing for a potential management role in the NFL since his retirement. He's visited various teams and picked the brains of coaches and GMs about what it takes to run a team. But the right opportunity just hasn't come yet. He told Bleacher Report, I've had, I have. I've had conversations with different people, but I've never had a formal contract offer,

nothing in writing. I've had football conversations that I think, you know, are probably gauging my interests, and I'm asking them questions about what their direction is. It's just not something that I have moved on yet. I don't even know if, does he have to work? I'm sure he doesn't have to work, but just because he doesn't, he has the funds to not work, doesn't mean he doesn't want to not have work to do for the, rest of his life. He's still, you know, a young man as far as, you know, the workforce goes.

But, you know, you want to have something to channel your passion and competitiveness and energy into. But, I mean, I mean, there's a lot of talks about him going into broadcasting as well, which he would be, you know, incredible on, you know, calling games. But I don't know. It's a lot of pressure and a lot of work to run a team. It's very different than, you know, being in the booth calling a game once a week. That's a whole different workload. That's, that's, your life. That's your whole life running an organization. If money was the same, and people will be surprised by this, I'd much rather be a general manager than a football analyst. Really? If money was the same, oh, the idea of building, you're building a business.

Like to me, you know how my brain works. I probably should have majored in architecture. I like building stuff. The idea that I could run an NFL franchise is, you know, I'm not qualified, never going to get that opportunity, obviously. But I, to me, I think, I think I have the best job in America. I really do. I talk sports. And I can literally go home and watch games and that's where I get paid for. I think the second best job in America is an NFL general manager.

An NFL GM is so much work. Well, you know what? I mean, I'm not saying it's not an amazing job and very rewarding, but it is not like your phone is on 24-7. You have to answer to the owner. You have to answer to fans. You have to answer to season ticket holders. You have to deal with players.

You have to put together plans with coaches. You have to stay on the same page with coaches. You have an entire organization to run. That's so much responsibility. I don't think I'd be great dealing with fans. But I would deal well with coaches. You're going to earn your paycheck as a GM in the NFL. You don't think I'm earning my paycheck right here.

I'm not saying you don't earn your paycheck. You certainly do. I'm just saying you're going to work the extra hours if you are an NFL GM, which is like that's a big commitment, which is why Peyton Manning's taking his time to decide, you know, where he wants to end up doing that. if he does decide to do that. So the Bears are planning to have an open competition between Mitchell Trubisky and Nick Foles

to be the team's starter this year. But now that the Bears have moved further away from Trubisky by declining his fifth year option, Foles is a big favorite to get to the nod. According to Fox Betts, Foles is at minus 133 to be the starter in 2020, and Trubisky is at plus 235. So Foles is looking like he's going to be the starter,

which is, I mean, that's what we are. That's certainly what I'm at. expecting. I don't know what necessarily to make of Nick Foles. I'm probably higher on him than most people. But I also feel like we know what I know what we know what both of these guys are. Right. So if Nick Foles is what he is and Trubisky has reached the ceiling, I would rather go with Nick Foles in this situation. Again, having a quarterback competition to me is that that means you don't really have any faith in either one of these guys, if that's the case. I very much believe in saying this guy as a starter, even if it can change later on in the season, at least you, you have

designated a clear leader. The team knows who they're supposed to be following, who they're supposed to be getting their direction from as opposed to, well, the rest of us are just going ready for the season and then they'll figure out and let us know who our guy is. I don't like that mentality going into a season. Fair enough. I get it. Joy with the news. Well, that's the news. And thanks for stopping by. The Heard Lye News. So Thursday, the NFL releases its schedule, 8 p.m. Eastern. So we already know who everybody plays. You can Google your favorite team. The teams are there. You know where they play them, home or away. So it's all there. You just don't know the order of it. The order matters. I think one of the things that really unraveled Baker Mayfield was in year two was the

beginning of the season. He faced so many elite defensive coordinators or defenses that it just unraveled the entire season. He lost confidence. People lost confidence in him. And they just couldn't get going. The placement of when you play games matters. I'll give you two teams. Cincinnati's very interesting. There's already enormous pressure on Joe Burrow to start immediately. No OTAs, probably a shortened camp. Start

in a great division with the worst roster in the division. That's not debatable. That's a lot of pressure. But if you look at the Bengals' opponents, they face similar teams. They face the Jaguars who are tanking, the Giants who are rebuilding, Washington's rebuilding, Miami's rebuilding. Houston's had a noisy offseason. If they could play those teams earlier, September, early October, big advantage for Joe Burrow. What you don't want is that game against at Baltimore,

Philadelphia, at Philadelphia, at Pittsburgh. I don't even think you want to play Cleveland early. Or Tennessee. Last year, Cincinnati couldn't stop the run. Tennessee early. So Cincinnati's schedule is going to be very easy. Does it slowly allow Joe Burrow to go two and one? one, three and oh, they can be competitive. People now, you get a certain momentum. We all know football's always been about momentum. The big play changes the game. Also, the Green Bay Packers.

Green Bay's schedule has got four teams that now have either a new quarterback or a new system. They face Carolina, new coach, new system, new quarterback. They face the Bears. Nick Foll's probably going to start new quarterback. Tampa Bay, new system for Tom Brady, Indianapolis, Phillip Rivers. If Green Bay could get Carolina, Chicago, at least once, Tampa and Indianapolis earlier than later, big advantage for Green Bay because Aaron Rogers and Matt LaFleur are now in their second season together. And you could say, you know, it may only mean one or two wins that wouldn't have been wins,

but I'd rather face Brady in September than I would in December. It matters. So I think the order of it is why I get so freaked out about it. The first thing I always look at with NFL schedules. It's always been this way. I look at how many quarterbacks do you face that are better than yours. So the good news for Joe Burrow is Cincinnati's schedule isn't loaded with a lot of Pro Bowl quarterbacks. Lamar Jackson twice, Big Ben twice, Carson Wentz once, Deshaun Watson once.

Then it's old Philip Rivers. We don't know, Baker Mayfield, Daniel Jones, Guard. under Minchu. So Cincinnati's got the one thing I like. Joe Burrow, if he's as good as everybody claims, I don't think he is. I think he's fine. I think he's a B plus prospect, not an A, not an A plus. But they don't face a lot of rigorous pro bowl quarterbacks. So if they get a break with scheduling two, then on that five and a half over under, I'd probably take the over. Right now I say under because I don't think they're going to get the scheduling break. John Middlecops, a former NFL scout friend of mine is on the

Hurt Podcast Network. Why can't Cam get a job? Why wouldn't James fetch much either on the market? We'll talk about that and Burrow. Mel Kuyper saying, oh, Joe Burrow would be number one if Trevor Lawrence came out. I just don't see it. That's not what any NFL general manager or scouting director has told me over the last year. Not one, even after the LSU hammering of Clemson. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern 9 a.m. Pacific. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet. lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the

noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kier Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing,

we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person

while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app.

Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Cliver Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her.

What? Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, rec, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Where's she at? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Cliverts show on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

What's up, fam? This Isaiah Thomas. I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game.

We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson,

we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court,

and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the, iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. John Middlecalf's former NFL scout for the Philadelphia Eagles. He has a podcast three and out with John Midlokoff on the Heard Podcast Network, a buddy of mine. And, you know, we were talking about just a second ago, the importance of schedules. The first thing I look at, who's your quarterback and how many quarterbacks will you face probably better than yours?

So Joe Burrow, the Bengals, the Bengals schedule, there's not a lot of problems. ball quarterbacks. There's Carson Wentz, there's Big Bandlers, Lamar a couple times, and it's a bunch of kind of guys in developing teams. But I do think schedule matters some for a team like Cincinnati. Do you? Well, you know, we all love the schedule release. It's really fun. But the NFL, unlike definitely basketball and even baseball, there's so much turnover every year, right? So many teams go worse to first. You think a team's going to be good, and then they go from 12 wins the seven wins or vice versa. But I think for Burrow in that division, where you play the Ravens, who we know are going

to be good, the Steelers won eight games with Duck Hodges and Mason Rudolph. They have an excellent defense. So that's going to be tough. So do you play them early? Do you play them late? When do they, you know, stack up? And even the Browns. I mean, they've been a dumpster fire for years, but they do have a lot of talent.

I do think it matters a little bit for a young quarterback where he kind of starts out. Does he get to start out a couple of games at home? Is it on the road? Especially this year, Colin, think about it. The OTAs are not happening. I know they're doing virtual meetings, two hours a day, four days a week or whatever. But that is just not the same. I mean, listen, OTAs are not Bear Bryant double days, but there is a lot of mental learning.

And for a quarterback, taking in a new offense, learning some new teammates, getting some timing down with guys he's never played with is really important. And that's just simply not going to take place over this, you know, the next couple months. OBJ said, he said, this is going to be my time and my season. And I look at OBJ and I think, okay, Cleveland acquired Austin Hooper, Jarvis Landry's a volume guy. Kevin Stefansky doesn't throw the ball a ton. Now, some of that may be the directive of Mike Zimmer, but Kirk Cousins was only 24th in pass attempts. So I look at OBJ and I think to myself, listen, if happiness is tied to expectations,

if he had 70 catches, I would actually be a little surprised, right? I would tend to agree. It'll be hard for him to have the production from those first couple years of the Giants when he was clearly their go-to guy and, you know, head and shoulders above the rest. In this offense, you know, one thing was DeVancey last year in Minnesota. When Dalvin Cook was healthy and on the field, they slammed it down your throat. Yes. And this team has multiple running backs. But Cousins did have some big moments throughout the year when Diggs had his mind right and was playing.

He hit him deep several times. So I think they used the deep threat in this zone, you know, offense. Kyle Shanahan does. McVeigh has. Kyle did when he was in Atlanta. When you have a speed guy and you're running it, you can hit some big shots. But the volume of targets to me probably will not be there because like you said, the tight ends. They love the tight ends in this offense.

And Jarvis Landry is just a consistent guy assuming he's healthy. You know, when the season starts just over the middle, it's an easy target for a quarterback. Let's face it, Colin. coming off a terrible year and just needs to kind of get the train back on the track. John Middlkoff is joining us, former scout, done talk show stuff. He's a part of the herd podcast network. He was a scout for the Philadelphia Eagles. Jalen Hertz for the Eagles goes second round.

Little high, but I get it. And I think he'll be fine over time. If there was a first round, you know, we know this, that we just had half the first round didn't get their fifth year option picked up. There's going to be a lot of bus in the first round. Are there one or two first round guys that you just don't know if they fit? Because to me, fit is so crucial in this league. Like Isaiah Simmons, that could be a bus because I'm not sure what the fit is, right?

Colin, he's just not a plug-and-play player. I get the media, you know, thought he's the next. I don't know. Lawrence Taylor meets Ed Reed. But he's a guy that all my buddies in the NFL just said, when you really studied them, you better have Todd Bowles or Bill Belichick moving him around. His defensive coordinator at Clemson makes over $2 million, the highest paid coordinator in the country.

Why? Because he's elite, Brett Vannebles. Well, Van Gogh, Joseph, the last three years, has led atrocious defenses. For two years when he was the head coach in Denver, unlike when Wade Phillips was running it, the defense fell off and was bad. Last year in Arizona, it was really, really bad. Now, Steve Kime historically has hit on a lot of, you know, kind of versatile players like this.

Dionne Buchanan, the Honey Badger, they have had success with that type player. But they had Todd Bowles moving those guys around. I don't see it with Vance Joseph. And it's not like Cliff Kingsbury can add much, Colin. He's not a defensive guy. He's an offensive guy only, and historically his defense has been terrible.

So who's helping Isaiah Simmons to be put in the right position in Arizona? I'm not disputing his physical attributes because they're special, right? He's tall, he can run, he can move all over the play. place. But those guys sometimes need the right coordinator. This is a coaching league. We've seen a lot of talented players go to the wrong

scheme or the wrong team and not play well. I got that one, a little red flag for sure. I've said with Joe Burrow yesterday, Mel Kuyper said he and Trevor Lawrence, if they came out in the same class, you'd take Joe Burrell slam dunk. And I think, you know, we're getting to the point now where the hype, the mythology of Joe Burroughs, he could not beat out J.T. Barrett or Dwayne Haskins. Trevor Lawrence came in as a kid,

and essentially they sat the Clemson quarterback who was 12 and 2. Just sat him, just said this kid's better. When I look at Trevor Lawrence and I talk to my guys in the NFL, they're like, oh, this is like Andrew Luck stuff. This is, he's got to have a little more command at the line of scrimmage, but it looks like no miss. Are we over-hyping Burrow now? Like, is it becoming, to me it feels like pump the brakes on Burrow?

Well, I think he just had such a historic year at just a massive program in a, you know, I think I read a staff, the SEC West had more first round picks than I think the ACC and the Big Ten combined. So what he did in that conference and on that side of the conference against the best talent was remarkable. And then really once the SEC championship in the two playoff games, but we act like Trevor Lawrence hasn't played Big Boy Football. He's also played in four playoff games. Now, the game against LSU, he was atrocious. But, you know, Michael Jordan had bad games, right? I mean, Mickey Mantle struck out. I'm not saying he's going to be those guys as a football player, but you can have bad games. He's going to have three years starting when it's all said and done. I think if Trevor Lawrence would have been in this draft,

for example, the Bengals, I know you've talked about this, are such a conservative organization. It would still be easy to take Joe Burrow. But I think if you gave a lot of the younger general managers, the more aggressive teams, they would have no problem. And I mean none taking Trevor Lawrence number one. I still think he is in line to be the top pick. We see some things change. You know, I thought Sam Darnold was a lock to go one, and Baker Mayfield ends up going over him.

We'll see how Justin Fields comes out. But I say at worst case scenario, coming into this season, he's a top two pick. And I would still lean he'll be the number one pick when the draft comes around next year. Minute left, little more maybe. Dak Prescott, what's he supposed to make of the Andy Dalton move? What do you make of it?

Where's Dak Prescott's leverage? Who is Jerry Jones big against? We see James Winston, Cam Newton, there's nowhere for them to go. Whereas if he rescinded the franchise tag, where's he getting $35 plus million? And Andy Dalton had an awful year last year, but he's had a lot of success when he was on really good teams. I like Dak Prescott. I do. And I would love him for $25 million.

I just, I have a hard time paying him $35 million when he's already proven he can't really carry the franchise. This team's so good. When you pay a guy that much money, the Rams are a good example. You have to get rid of guys at, you know, next year, the following year. I think they're going through a lot of scenarios. I don't think this sets in stone. Dak Prescott's ends with the Cowboys. I do think it gives them options because they would not have been this aggressive just randomly.

I can't see it. I hope you're still social distancing. Up in the Bay Area, could you go to the beach yet or anything? Yeah, I walked by the beach this weekend in Santa Cruz, and they were handing out $1,000 tickets if your feet hit the sand. So I stayed back, but you were allowed to surf. So if you're in the water, you were good. You walked on the beach $1,000.

There's not much rhyme or reason to what's going on around here, so you just kind of keep your head on a swivel and keep moving. So how do you get to the water? Don't you have to walk on the beach to get to the water? Well, no, it's coming down a hill at a house, you know, So I walked down, keeping our distance, and then we just kind of got close and then saw some police working on four-wheelers. And, you know, I didn't want to get the $1,000 ticket for standing on the beach. Unless you ran straight to the water, you'd be okay.

Okay. John Middlokov, good talking to you. See ya, call. Yeah. By the way, I was in Ventura County, north of Los Angeles County this weekend. And the beaches were – I saw surfers all over the place. And then I was down in Newport a couple of weeks ago, Orange County, south of L.A. County. And there was people everywhere.

L.A. County restricted beaches, but we have a higher number of infections. Higher infection rate. I have no idea. Social distancing works, I think. That's all I know about this. I think it works. The online savings account from Marcus by Goldman Sachs, a high-yield account, no fees. Money actually grows. Please learn more. Marcus.com. Try their online calculator. Compare rates from other banks. The high-yield online savings account at Marcus.com. Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd, Weekdays and noon Easter.

9 a.m. Pacific. Oh, here we go. Hour number three live in Los Angeles. This is The Heard. Wherever you may be, and however, you may be listening, IHeart Radio, Fox Sports Radio, and FS1. The Great Penny Hardaway in 15 minutes joins us.

Joy Taylor, how are you? I'm great. Just staying home and eating snacks. They have done studies, wonderlick scores, and on how smart professions are. Scientists, doctors, engineers. The media always ends up much lower than the media thinks of itself as brilliant. And two things got me thinking about that today, that the media has a sense that it's very smart and it's never as smart as it thinks.

Number one, with this virus, nobody can understand Florida. They're out in the beaches. and the media is like, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Or their death rates much lower than New York City, New Jersey, Connecticut, all these smart states.

Cellular data, because the media never understands that people are smart. I've given you this example. The media always projects that when a city gets the Olympics, traffic's going to be terrible. L.A., Salt Lake City, I've been to both.

Salt Lake, I should say, is the one I'm coming. covered. But the people, the public, hears traffic's going to be bad and they're smarter than the average bear and the public stays home. In Salt Lake City when I covered the Olympics, the traffic, there was no traffic. All these doom and gloom predictions and people that live in Salt Lake were like, ooh, let's rent our house out or stay off the roads and watch the Olympics. Similarly, in Florida with a virus, none of the media experts can figure it out. Why is their death rate so low. Because according to cellular data,

Floridians by March 15th, they weren't stupid. They watched what was happening in New York, and they stayed inside. And that's why they didn't get hit. March 15th, Disney World closed down pretty early, and Floridians were smart enough to go, regardless of what our governor says,

I got an old grandma and don't want to get it and give it to her. The people were smarter than the projections by the meeting. media. This is now segueing into J.A. Adande, who was on with us earlier. He was talking about Michael Jordan not going into politics, and the media always pushes back. You should go into politics. Dary, of course, did and almost got fired as the Rockets GM. There's a reason that athletes like Michael Jordan, who have billion-dollar brands, don't go into politics. Because nobody changes their mind on it. I've watched people in my business. torpedo their careers. Why would I talk about politics? I'm not going to change your vote. Chuck Todd can't change your vote. I'm going to.

George Stephanopoulos, Joe Scarborough. They're not going to change my vote. They're political guys. I'm not. And J.A. Adonde talked about Michael Jordan, not wanting to throw political support behind people that ticked off the media. But it was, you know, the classic Republicans buy sneakers, too.

Here was J.A. Adonde, journalism head at the University of Northwestern, or I should say Northwestern University. I've always wished and wanted and hoped that he would do more, but I don't think it's a major detraction. What if he had endorsed Harvey Gann? Would that have made a difference? Would that have changed enough minds to get him elected? You know, LeBron James endorsed Hillary Clinton in 2016, and Donald Trump still won in the state of Ohio. So part of it is what difference would have made? Also, I don't look for our athletes, our entertainers, to provide leadership in that. That's not their area of expertise. Thank you.

And also, what if he'd been outspoken, but we disagreed with him? That's right. You know, like, there's no guarantee that people are going to say what you want them to say. So I think what it was was that we wanted them to say things. Sometimes the people who think they're smartest in the media are the dumbest. They really think their political opinions matter. They don't. People have made up their mind.

People that like Trump cannot be dissuaded, and the people that don't like him will never vote for him, regardless of what happens to the economy or the virus going forward. So keep it to yourself. Just hurt your brand, hurt your audience. And Michael Jordan understood that. I'm not the average player. I'm the player.

Representing McDonald's, which was the number one chain in the country. Representing Nike, the number one shoe brand in the world. Representing the NBA, which was the hottest ticket. it in professional sports. I'm representing a team, a city, executives, brand after brand, after brand, after brand. I'm not changing anybody's vote. I'm just going to donate to one of the candidates,

which he did. So it's a classic example. Is the media can mock and point fingers and your stupid Floridians went inside March 15th. Cellular data proves it. They were like, eh, this stuff's kind of dangerous. I got a grandma, grandpa, you know, he's got a little lung issue.

I'm going to stay inside. They didn't need the media telling him to do that. And Michael Jordan was smarter than the media. He always got it. I'm not going to change anybody's vote. I don't know anything about politics. You know, it's a great story. David Falk is a legendary agent.

He's all over this last dance. And I've told this story before. So just permit me two minutes here. If you've heard it, sorry to bore you. I think I've told this before. just to give you a sense of how smart Michael Jordan was as a businessman. So when Michael came into the league, his reputation was you just couldn't stop him. But Magic Johnson was winning all the titles.

So Nike came to Michael Jordan. And they said, listen, we're going to give you a million dollars to play Magic Johnson in a one-on-one match. And we know you'll win. And Michael Jordan, and this just shows you how smart. he was said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And David Falk said, why not? It's a million dollars. It'll last 10 minutes.

And Michael said, because I'm seen as the selfish, great individual player, magic seen as the great team player, if by chance he beats me, and I don't think he will. But if he did, he's now both and can have it over me potentially forever. And David Falk admitted, he said a light went off. And I was like, of course. Oh, my God. None of us at Nike. None of us with law degrees.

We didn't think about that. Michael knew his brand better than everybody. And he knew that going out and giving this strong political activist move didn't have any influence on voters. It had no way. And what if he had come out and said the opposite of what the media wants? Kanye West is one of the only musicians who's pro-Trump. Ask him what the feedback has been if you don't align with what Hollywood really want you to say.

Hollywood loves athletes to have an opinion as long as it aligns with theirs. How do you know, Michael's opinion aligns with yours? You don't. And I think it just shows, you know, the intelligence of MJ and really knowing his brand. also saw Penny Hardaway in a few minutes. Also, we had Brian Cox on earlier. And Brian Cox was a great player.

But he played for Don Shula, Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick. And one of the things I talked about, I said, you know, you're watching the last dance. And I was saying one of the things I like about Michael is that sometimes we expect him to flip a switch and go from tough Michael to soft Michael. And Michael,

is what he is. He's intense. He can be funny. We've seen him laugh a lot. He could be great. He's super competitive. You know, and, you know, sometimes he kind of veered toward pretty harsh on Jerry Krauss. He can be pretty harsh. But he was harsh when he was alive and he's harsh when he's passed. Same with Isaiah Thomas. But I was asking, Brian, about that competitive drive thing that Michael Jordan has then and still has today. That mindset, for better or worse, got me, over-emotional at times. And I can say that now because I'm mature, but when you're in that storm, you don't see that.

You just, I'm just angry. I was the angry man. I was the angry black man for real because I never wanted to go back to where I came from. For many years, I tried to figure out what was it? You know, I was angry, but I was angry because I never wanted to go back into a situation and raise my kids the way I was raised. And I was playing out of fear, the fear of failure. The fear of not being adequate enough.

Yeah. And it took me years. I think maybe within the last five years, I just recognized that. You know, I had to deal with it on my own because people were afraid to talk to me. And so I understand Michael's edge because that's what makes you great. But it also off the field opens you up to criticism. Yeah. It is.

This is a documentary. It's not a movie where the villain learns his lesson and is a better person or the star learns a lesson. And then there's a perfect story arc. It's not the way this stuff works. Michael's tough then. Michael's tough now. It's the way he is. And it's why he's great.

There's a lot of people in the NBA, a lot of athletes. You know, I remember thinking this about Michael. I remember watching the Phoenix Suns Chicago series on a couch in Las Vegas at the time a girlfriend. And I was like, you know, Michael's 6'6. He's not the tallest guy. He's not the quickest guy. He's not the strongest guy. why does he make it look so easy?

Well, we find out now he was the most relentless guy, the hardest working guy, is that that is the difference. Have you ever watched an NBA game? They're all six, seven. I mean, everybody's unbelievably athletic. And you're like, well, what's the difference? Michael did not have the best vertical jump. Dominique Wilkins did.

Michael wasn't the better ball handler. I think LeBron and Kobe are better ball handlers than Michael. Michael didn't have the smoothest jumper. He wasn't a very good three-point shooter. Michael wasn't the best rebounder. Michael wasn't the strongest player. It was the relentlessness and the work ethic that made him great. And very few have it.

And don't expect them to turn it off ever. That's just who they are. Penny Artaway is coming up next. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific. It's great to have you in. So years ago, I've told the story I worked in Tampa. And I love the NBA. And nobody in the sports office wanted to cover the NBA.

and I was like, I'll go cover it because we had this team in Orlando, which was about an hour drive away, and they had Penny Hardaway, and they had Nick Anderson, and they had Shaquille O'Neal. And they were kind of like people thought they were the next great team. They were the nicest guys. Penny Hardaway wouldn't remember me. I was this nobody reporter. But I remember going back and I would tell guys, I'm like,

it's the nicest team I ever covered. Like, everybody was like gracious and nice. Penny Hardaway was the emerging star. Third year now entering is the Memphis head basketball coach. You made the All-Star team. four times and 14 years in the NBA, a gold medal winner, a national high school player of the year in 1990. And Penny is now joining us. First of all, thank you, and congratulations on getting the job. It's very rare that a star player gets into coaching and succeeds. You have a winning

record. So good for you. Congratulations. Now, first, thanks off. I really appreciate. I appreciate everything and being on. It's been a great ride for me so far. So let's start with this. So when you broke into the league, Michael was retired, then he came back. Do you remember, because a lot of people, Penny, thought you had a lot of Michael Jordan in your game, very vertical, could handle the ball, could drive to the basket, could play above the rim, could shoot a jumper. Do you remember your first meeting with MJ? Yes, I do. I remember that I was hearing rumblings about him coming back and the game that he came back.

I think it was at Indiana. and I got super excited because I hated that he was returning when I was coming into the league. And then he came back. I was like, now I'm going to get an opportunity to play against who I thought was the greatest player of all time and to see how I could test my skills against him. And the first game that we played against them, I felt like I had to get my respect in that game. And I think we beat them. I had like 36 points.

We beat them that game, Ben Orlando. Now, so when he came back that first year, people forget this. your magic beat those Chicago Bulls. It's as if that series never happened, Penny. It just disappeared into the ether. But let's go back to that series. So Michael comes back. You actually are the kings of the east.

So talk about that series. And was Michael at his best? Was he still working himself into shape? Take me back to that series. No, Michael was not at his best. He was not the Michael Jordan that we all knew all those years when he had a rhythm. When he came back, he was rusty, and rightfully so.

He changed numbers. He was wearing number 45 because of his baseball number. And then he changed the number 23 in game two and played a better game. But you could just tell he was very rusty. He did not like the new arena. He was the old Chicago Stadium guy. The United Center was not his type of a building when he first came back. He was having problems shooting the ball off the glass.

He didn't like the rims. He didn't like the bigger arena. it was like a lot of things that were like a factor for us for sure that were just you know he wasn't himself and we had all those things working against it I mean working against them and helping us and working for us and we beat him in a series now it's funny then the following year michael's back to being michael he's now not in baseball shape he's in basketball shape so when you look at your games against him when he was back to michael and you're this fledgling young superstar what was he like to face? Was he tougher to guard or was he a better defender? Like, like, where did he

give you the most trouble? Well, when it comes to Michael Jordan, well, he was really hurt losing that series to us. And that entire summer, we were on his mind because he felt like we were the new, the new up-and-coming guys that he was going to have to beat. He had already gone through, you know, the Pistons and, you know, Boston and all these guys, the Lakers, he's going through these guys to finally get to where he really needs to get to. And then he wins three championships and then retires. And then comes back on this young team now, it's like the big dog on the block.

And playing in that series the following year, he came back with a vengeance. Even though we had injuries, he was a totally, totally different player, tougher to guard, and he was so tenacious on defense because it was more personal. Michael, that was the hand check era, Penny. People always say Michael was stronger than people on TV thought.

Did you sense that? Yeah, for sure. hands, big hands. And when you can hand to text somebody, you definitely could push them in an area where they didn't want to go and you'd have to fight that off and try to resist that. But yeah, he was very strong because he started working out and getting

bigger and bigger every year. Yeah. When you watch the documentary The Last Dance, Penny Hardaway, the Memphis head basketball coach entering his third year, are you learning any new things about Michael? Anything new? I kind of learned some things about him

that are kind of like in the last dance like a lot of this stuff. Like he came out and said a lot of people are going to think he's, you know, because of the last dance. Yeah. He's just so competitive and he just speaks his mind. And Michael is Michael has a, you know, a really good sense of humor, always looking for, you know, a joke or to say something.

The thing that really shocked me was the Jerry Krauss situation where he and Pippen were really just ragging on Jerry Krause as much as they could. That doesn't usually happen with a point. players in a GM. No, I mean, actually your GM was Pat Williams in Orlando, and he's a very gregarious, likable guy. In fact, you go back to your teams. I mean, you know, it's funny.

People forget this. You had the Little Penny commercials, which are the Chris Rock voice. There was a moment, Penny, when you were turning into a superstar in America. And when you watch the Michael Jordan documentary, I'm taken back by how God, like he was. He was a mob. And you were, for a brief time, you were getting foisted into that space, Penny. You were literally the next thing. Were you ever uncomfortable with it? Just this constant hovering mass of people and attention and cameras around you. You know what? I really enjoyed it. And I can see how Michael, for as long as he did it, how he got to a point where he was like,

man, I'm leaving it and I'm not going to miss it. For me, I enjoyed every moment of it. I guess everyone's different. I never looked at it. And he went, man, I can't go anywhere. Everywhere I go, there's moms of people. I looked at that as love. And I just try to reciprocate that and show love back. But, I mean, I couldn't speak remarkable for me. I enjoyed every minute of it.

You know, it's funny. I remember Shaq, a friend of mine lived near Shaq in Orlando on the butler chain of lakes. And he'd see him out occasionally in a boat. And he's like, man, that guy is, he just is so unique. And everybody loves Shaq. Take my audience back, Penny. to the Shaquille O'Keele. Now, this is pre-Lakers.

He's a little skinnier. The first time you played with Shaq, take my audience back to how special he was. No, Shaq was much smaller than he was with the Lakers, very agile, mobile, can handle the ball, would start the fast break and be the first person down. If he had the ball and then without the ball, he was the best run runner and the fastest guy

and the first guy down the floor. I don't know who the fastest guy in the league was at that time, but Shaq wasn't too far behind that guy on a dead sprint. Like he was very athletic and very mobile. I might be overstating that a little bit, but for a big man, he could really move because he wasn't, he understood who he was, and that's the way he kind of figured his game out early on in his career,

that I had to outrun everybody and be in better shape. And he did a phenomenal job. The total shack that no one knew was the smaller shack that played with me in Orlando. that type of shack. Most of the people started seeing him when he won the championships and got a little bigger and stronger. For the record, Penny, I think you would have adapted well

to the current NBA, which is no hand check, more three-ball shooting. Do you ever look at the current game and think, man, I was just born about seven, eight, nine years too early, maybe ten years too early? You know, I think it would be fun

because I do think that my game would, you know, it would transform. translate from that era to this era because I was a guard that was dynamic in the transition. They're not as much posting up, but as far as the transition game and shooting threes, I'm sure I would have adapted to it. Back in the day, threes weren't my game. I was more of a mid-range shooter and the post guy. But I do look at the game nowadays and go, man, if I could have played in this area, it would have been a lot of fun.

You know, you're the Memphis head coach, and I've been saying before for about a year now, I have nothing against the G-League. but if I had a son and I could send him to college for a year and have to go to a college campus, have to play within a system, use it as a platform so he can go to the tournament and people can see him. That's the only reason I know who Zion is, the tournament and Duke. I have nothing against the G League, but I'd like to see the NBA at least occasionally give a hug to college basketball

and not see it as an enemy the way the NFL really uses college football as its ally. Are you bothered by young players now saying, we're not even going to go to college? High school to a minor league pro league. Does it bother you at all? It doesn't bother me the guys want to go G League at all. I think I've been quoted in the last couple weeks

that I like, I say the G League is needed, but only if a kid 100% to me wants to go to the G-League. I feel like you do. I wish the NBA and the NTA could come together and then work it out. But if a kid wants to go to the G-League, man, I'm all for that. If they see that avenue has been the best avenue for them, then I support that 100%. I just don't like when the kid is already committed or already signed with the school and it's focusing on going to that school and then he keeps getting recruited by the G-League. That's what I don't agree with if that's happening. Because if you see a kid come out of his N-LI or out of a commitment, you're thinking that

still negotiations going on. That's the only thing that I said about the G League. I think it's great for development. I think if a kid wants to go there 100%, then I'm for that kid to go 100%. I just didn't like the part of it where if a kid is already focused on going to college and has signed, then I think that kid should be off limits. That's just my thought process.

If you had a son who's a great basketball player, would you tell him to go to college for a great coach, great program for a year or go G League? No, I would go to college. and I think the NCA stepped into the right, made a step in the right direction by allowing kids to, you know, to make money on their own likeness. But there is nothing like college.

I think if you ask the percentage of the guys in the NBA, what's more fun, college or NBA, most of the guys are going to say the college experience because you learn so much, you get a chance to be around students. You don't grow up too soon. You get a chance to kind of develop over the month and then kind of kind of take your game on

and then you get drafted, but you get a chance to be a kid. The college fans and the college experience is the best experience I've ever experienced in my life when it's come to basketball more so than the NBA. The money is great, but the college experience is so special. And you want every kid to kind of go through that and kind of and be a part of that. But like I said, it's not for everybody. It's going to be a selective few guys that are going to say, I don't want to go to college. I want to go to the G League.

And, you know, to me, I support those guys that want to go do that. So you felt you grew up a little bit in college? Yes, I spent three years in college. I played two, and it was the most fun time I've ever had. It's just to develop my game, to be around teammates, where the game is pure. The college fans are amazing, going from arena to arena, going to different college campuses.

Yes, it was the best time in my life. Yeah, because I was saying when I watched the last dance, one thing I'm really struck with, Penny, is how mature Michael was his first year in the NBA, and a lot of that is Dean Smith, that Michael was really a grown-up. He also had great parents. But I really do think Michael was really ready to be the face of the league,

his first year in the league. And I'm not sure a lot of these kids are, they're quite ready yet. Like James Wiseman's a great player for Memphis. He now moves to the NBA. Is he ready? The money, the fame, the travel, the competition, the nightly, you know, activity athletically. ready for it?

I don't know if any 18-year-old, and James is 18-year-old, is fully ready for that. They're mature. He's a mature 18-year-old, but you don't know if a kid is really fully ready for that because they don't understand what the world really is going to, you know, hand to them. But I just don't see an 18-year-old coming in and just be in the face. I know LeBron did a great job. It took Kobe a while. He kind of went through, you know, the ups and downs of, you know, playing on different, you know,

playing on the team and kind of coming off the bench. and being a guy that worked his way up. And even with Kevin Garnett and guys of that nature, but I don't know if one guy is ready to do and take on the entire league by himself an 18 years ago. I know Zion is trying to do it, but it's tough. It's tougher at that age. And like you said, with Michael,

with that experience of having Coach Smith and great parents, that all helped him be more mature going to that next year. Yeah, he was refined and polished and ready to roll. Hey, Penny, basketball coach Penny Hardaway, Memphis entering his third year winning record multiple time all-star a decade and a half

NBA career what a pleasure it is to talk to you today man I appreciate it no same here thank you so much for having me you're right Penny Hardway good stuff I didn't know you know he stayed

in college for three years I did not know that I didn't so he must oh yeah no he was I remember you know what I remember hearing about him so you know how joy they have these personal workouts right and I remember you know people

were working penny out in these personal workouts. And I remember, somebody could probably, you know, Google it. It was back whenever it was. And people were like, that was the greatest individual workout of players ever had. Like he had something. Apparently one of these teams worked him out and they were like, that's that guy. He was, he was thin. So he got banged up a little.

Remember, it was a much more physical league then. But when he came out with those little penny commercials, he was like the next guy. It was Shaq and him. Orlando, they were the next, they were the next great team. Joy with the news. No, no, no, no, no. Turn on the news. This is the herd line news.

Those commercials were great. Oh, they were hysterically funny. Isn't it amazing how quickly a commercial can bring you back to something, like the like-mike commercials? Do you remember the commercial with Michael's mom where she's shooting? No. She's shooting the basket. Like this, Michael, and she showed them how to shoot.

I love that commercial. You can YouTube the little. penny commercials. And it was just Chris Rock and this little guy. And he was so sarcastic and funny. He was this trash-talking little doll. They were great. They'd go YouTube the Little Penny commercials.

They were about, I remember six or seven of them. They were, you would wait for them. Like the next year, you would wait for the little penny commercials. They were that good. So the Jets signed running back Frank Gore to a one-year deal, despite already having Levi-on-Bell on the team. But before the news was announced, Adam Gates told ESPN's flight deck podcast that the Jets were hoping to take some pressure off of Leveon this season.

I'm excited to get him going, put him in the best position possible, both in the run game and passing game. I do think that we have some guys that can help, maybe lessen the load on him to where it's not all on him. I, you know, hopefully we can get some of these younger backs to where we can make a good one-two punch to where he can really, you know, excel instead of just feel like it's all on him all the time. They do have some other running back. Jacks, obviously, Kenneth Dixon, Josh Adams, and La Michael Perrine, and Frank Gore played for Adam Gase in 2018 in Miami. So he's coming into a situation that he mostly already knows. Lacey's familiar with Adam Gase.

But I like the idea that they're not putting all the pressure on Levy on Bell. I think that the Jets are a really interesting team. So do I. You saw a story yesterday, Joy. Marcus May, that safety may be on the trading block. So that tells you they're going to sign Jamal Adams. So Marcus May may be on the trading block. He's a very good young safety.

So, and they drafted a safety out of Cal. So anyway, but I just saw that yesterday. Yeah, there's just, they're in a very unique position, right? Because we don't really know what to expect from the AFC East this year at all. We don't know what to expect from the Patriots, what to expect from the Dolphins. We're assuming the bills are going to come back, you know, mostly the same as they were last year, which is a good team and probably should be at the top. I think they're at the top of the AFC East.

But the Jets are just kind of that wildcard to me because Sam Donald's, not going to have mono again. Right? He went seven and six with the worst old line in his division, maybe in the AFC, and he had mono, and he went seven and six. So it's like, and it looks like their draft and their free agent acquisitions up the front in their offensive line, Sam's going to finally have protection for the first time in three years.

The AFC ace is going to be a different world for the first time in a very long time. So the Eagles got Carson Went some much needed offensive help this offseason, and he is excited to get to work with his new teammates. I'm extremely excited, you know, not just with adding Jalen in the first round and adding his speed, but also going out and getting Marquise. You know, I've been watching him on tape for years through crossover tape through the league and everything. And just extremely impressive who he is as a player and the speed and the dynamic that he brings as well. So those two obviously jump off the page, but then obviously going down the list of the other rookies that we drafted.

I just know we've added some speed and some explosiveness that I'm excited to be created. and find ways to get those guys involved. Smart move by the Eagles this offseason. I mean, we expected them to do this. Obviously, they were ravaged with injuries last year, and Carson Wentz had to carry that team. But they did take three wide receivers in the draft, Jalen Rieger, John Hightower, and Kez Watkins of Southern Miss.

And they obviously, as he mentioned, they acquired Marquis Goodwin from the 49ers, which I think is a great movie. Yeah, that's a sneaky move. Mark East Goodwin's not an A, but he gets open. Markis Goodwin's a guy. In Philadelphia system, Doug Peterson will scheme him open like Kyle Shanahan did. I like that move.

And you want a solid receiver when you're bringing in three rookies as well to add to your roster. And you want to give him as much reliable help as you can. So speaking of Jordan's mom, Michael Jordan obviously loves cigars. And he's shown plenty of footage throughout the last dance. And he only has one of them next to him in his interviews. You know, this is at the beginning. He's got his drink and a little cigar sitting there. Right now.

I noticed the cigar wasn't lit, but it is there. Well, the director, Jason Hare, revealed on ESPN's last dance after the show that MJ's mom was the one who put an end to the cigar during the interviews. He said, Jordan told him, I can't have the cigar today because my mom got mad at me because she saw me smoking a cigar. I absolutely love this story. His parents obviously had amazing parents. And Mrs. Jordan is always.

I love seeing her and hearing her talk. I mean, her story about him being in college and needing stamps and, you know, the fact that she kept the letters. There's no question. It's so sweet. Michael's parents, you know, I don't understand why people get so sensitive about this. It's not a kid's fault, but having strong parental support really gives you such an advantage over any kid that wouldn't. Michael's parents come off looking really good in this, really smart and really supportive. and then he goes from that to Dean Smith in that system for three years.

Michael had a childhood and three college years. Joy, by the time he got to the NBA, he was a refined, smart, you know, driven, aspirational kid. The idea that that's not an advantage coming from a rock solid foundational play. His parents, you know, there every night, kids, supportive, sports, games. And his brothers obviously shaped a great deal of his his drive and relentlessness. No, of course, having a strong foundation is the way to build anything in life. So of course, it puts you at an advantage to not have to have that extra stress to worry about when you're

also taking on everything that Jordan took on. But, I mean, it's been really great to see that side of Michael as well. Like, you know, he clearly has a great relationship with this mom. And it doesn't matter if you're Michael Jordan, if your mom tells you to put the cigar down, you're putting the cigar down. There's no argument about it. No more cigar for you. Good stuff, Joy, with the news.

Well, that's the news. And thanks for stopping by. The herd line news. So for the next two days at this time, on our best for last, whenever you have over and unders in the NFL, and the over under is Fox bet will give you a number,

like Bears 8. And what they're telling you is you have a choice to bet they'll win more than eight, less than eight, or it's called a push. You think eight's the right number. But all those over and unders, they're telling you what divisions will look like. They're giving you a roadmap. Here's where teams are going to finish.

So we're going to do the AFC one day, the NFC the next day, and I'll give you my sort of feeling on how Fox Bet in Vegas, how they see the divisions ending up in the NFL. We'll do that coming up next. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern 9 a.m. Pacific. Tonight on FS1, it's the best of WWE. All the action begins at 7 Eastern with a look back at some of the biggest moments from the biggest stars, including Rick Flair, Edge, Brock Lesner, and Roman Raines. The best of WWE tonight on FS1 and the Fox Sports app.

This Mother's Day, 100 Flowers, limited delivery. Lock it in now. 1,800 flowers, beautiful Mother's Day gifts, bouquets, arrangements, It's 1,800 flowers.com, enter the code, H-E-R-D. All right, so I gave over and unders last week, but I wasn't terribly specific. I just said more than this, less than that push. And I thought today and tomorrow, we'll do the AFC today and the NFC tomorrow. I'll be more specific.

This is what I believe, because over-and-under sort of tell you what Vegas thinks divisions are going to look like. And I'll tell you, if I agree or don't, based on my over-unders, and be more specific today. So let's start with the AFC East. The over and unders by Foxbet tell you it's going to be Buffalo winning the division tied with New England, then the Jets in Miami. I don't see that. I think Buffalo and the Jets tie for the division lead. Miami has eight and eight written all over it and New England finishes fourth. Jarrett Stidham is starting with no weapons outside of Julian Edelman, who is a slot receiver.

I just don't think this team offensively can keep up with many in their division. Buffalo added Stefan Diggs. I think the Jets went out and did a nice job to upgrade their O-line and their wide receivers, and they already have Lavin' Bell and two really good tight ends. So I think the Jets are the easiest bet in this division over six and a half. Sam Darnold went seven and six last year with mono and an atrocious offensive line. So I think it's Buffalo Jets at the top, Miami close in New England and fourth, and I feel strongly about it.

The AFC North. Fox Bet believes Baltimore wins, Pittsburgh 2nd, Cleveland, 3rd, and Cincinnati 4th. I do agree that Baltimore wins, but 10 wins, not 11, more of a target. I think Cleveland finishes in second place, Pittsburgh 3rd and Cincinnati 4th. My question with Pittsburgh, I don't know if they got any better, and I don't know what to expect from 38-year-old Big Ben. He has never been an off-season grinder and workout machine like a Tom Brady, a Drew Breezer, or Russell Wilson. that is not his DNA so far. I think he could be back, but again, no OTAs, no can't, would he be rusty?

And the division is significantly better. I think Cleveland ends up finishing second in the division and is one of the most improved teams, at least from an organizational standpoint in the NFL. Cincinnati, five, six wins kind of feels like tops. AFC South. So Fox Betts over unders. believes Indian Tennessee tie for the division lead, Houston third, and Jacksonville finishes fourth.

I think Indianapolis wins it going out at 10 and 6. I think Philip Rivers, with that offensive line, will revert back to Philip Rivers a couple of years ago, inspired, motivated with tremendous protection. I also love the Colts draft. Two guys that will make an impact as rookie. Running back Jonathan Taylor and wide receiver Michael Pittman. Tennessee is 8 and 8. Why? Because I think there has to be a reality about Ryan Tannahill. I think we all went crazy. But if you look at the numbers in his last two or three games,

including playoff games, they were creating an offense that was moving the ball despite Ryan Tannahill. I do think Houston steps back. It's been a noisy offseason and Jacksonville's tanking. I'll give him four wins. And I doubt they even get there. And finally, the AFC West. Fox Bet thinks Kansas City runs away with it, a four-game lead by the end of the year over Denver and Las Vegas and the Chargers. I do not see it that way. I think Kansas City wins the division at 11 and 5,

but Denver fights them the entire way. I think Denver had an unbelievable offseason. I loved adding Melvin Gordon, A.J. Bouye and Jr., and Jeryl Casey. I thought they went out and addressed speed on the perimeter. They won four of their last five games to end the season, and they played the AFC East and the NFC South, and their tougher games are at home.

The Chiefs tougher games are on the road. I think the Chargers potentially could be a playoff team in that division finishing in third place at 9 and 7. Tyrod Taylor to me is the perfect anecdote, the perfect medicine for Philip Rivers. more athletic. You get the same maturity, but far fewer mistakes. They can move the pocket a little more, and I think it's a roster that rivals almost anybody except Baltimore in football. And the Raiders, I think it's six and ten. I don't think they know exactly what they've got at quarterback right now.

I think they've got Derek Carr, who I like more than John Gruden and Mike Mayock, but I think Marcus Marietta is just there waiting. So these would be my seven playoff team. in the AFC based on over-unders, ties broken by odds to make the playoffs. My playoff teams would be, let me look again, Buffalo, Jets, Baltimore, Indy, Kansas City, Denver. Did I miss one? And the Chargers. Yeah. My playoff teams, Buffalo.

So Buffalo, Indy, Kansas City, Baltimore, Baltimore, Kansas City, Baltimore, for sure. Then Denver for sure makes it five. I've got two more. It would be Jets and Tennessee. No, Jets and Cleveland. Yeah, that's my playoff team. Are you reserving the right to change your mind when you see the schedules on Friday?

Yes. I've got segments to fill. Yes. Yeah, I have a right to change my mind. I'm just saying this morning, based on my Fox bets over and unders, here's what they think the divisions will look like. And I'm telling you, here's what I think they'll look like. Yeah, so my playoff teams are Kansas City, Denver, Baltimore, Buffalo,

Indianapolis. That gives me four. And the three other ones are Cleveland, Denver, and either the jets or chargers based on the tiebreaker. Again, I have a right to change my mind. Don't look at me like that. I'm not going to feel guilty if I change tomorrow or Thursday. With everything going on, you're probably worrying more.

than ever. Maybe you should relax. Yes, M drive relax. 50% off right now. No hidden fees, no contracts, no nothing. No coupons needed. Check it out. MDrivevrelax.com. That's MDrivevrelax.com. Relax. M drive relax. All right, Joy, nice job today. Thank you. We're through it. Another one. Tomorrow's Wednesday. We'll be here. Hope you are too. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline.

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