The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Middlekauff - 3 & Out - 18 game NFL season inevitable; Beer chugging phenomenon; NFL and AAF GM Phil Savage goes inside the AAF collapse

Episode Date: June 4, 2019

Subscribe here to the 3 and Out with John Middlekauff Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/3-and-out-with-john-middlekauff/id1352730623?mt=2. In this episode, Middlekauff explains why an 18 game NFL season is an inevitability, why the recent social media phenomenon of NFL players chugging beers is relatable to the common fan, and talks with former NFL and AAF GM Phil Savage on what went wrong with the AAF, why he has no regrets about taking the job, and working with Saban and Belichick. Follow John on twitter @JohnMiddlekauff and go to www.theherdnow.com to find the latest content. Subscribe now! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Now that's tasty. eBay motors.com. Let's ride. What's going on, everybody? John Middlecop, three and out podcast. Back at it again. Got a big show coming up. Got a couple things to touch on

that I've seen around the league. Something Roger Goodell said. Something I noticed going viral on Twitter. Had a long conversation today with a good friend of mine. Worked with him for a year in Philly. We've stayed close ever since. been a general manager in the league was a GM of the AAF, ran the senior bowl for a long time,

and was the color analyst for Alabama for about eight years. Got to start working with Bill Belichick, work for Nick Sabin, my guy Phil Savage, who's just awesome, just has tons of nuggets and knowledge of football. I mean, he's been, he worked for the best. He worked for Belichick and Nick Sabin, then he was a GM for, or excuse me, an assistant GM forever under Ozzy News.

and then became a GM in the NFL with the Cleveland Browns. And the Middilkoff mailbag will probably push off because the interview was kind of long until later this week. But my DMs are always wide open at John Middlecoff. Slide up in those DMs on Instagram. You can also hit me up on Twitter. Easiest way to get a hold of me. But I answer questions on here from Instagram at John Middlecough.

But I want to start with something. I saw Roger Goodell said that ultimately, four preseason games may not be necessary. And I know Collins big on this, and I'm a big believer in this, that the NFL, you know, baseball, the baseball drafts going on right now,

and my Twitter timeline was full of people. Jeff Passon, who covers baseball for ESPN, was tipping the picks. I wouldn't even call it tipping the picks, because most people are not watching MLB network. I mean, I was, but the ratings aren't.

going to be huge. Like tipping the picks, like welcome to 2019. And of course, a bunch of baseball media members are furious. You know, it's hurting the sanctity of the sport. Like, hey guys, get with 2019. The market dictates it. You ever heard of this thing called Twitter? We want to know the damn picks immediately. I love it. Baseball, you know, they don't do well with change. Basketball sometimes is the opposite probably of baseball and changes too fast. Like change the basketball. Adam Silver said today they're going to like get rid of the word of. owner for actual owners. You know the guys that own the team, the owners.

They're a little probably over-aggressive. Football, you're going to take criticism any time you change no matter what. Football's probably somewhere in the middle. They do a good job of just constantly adapting. One thing, and people have been on this for probably the last five or six years, the preseason

is a disaster. And the hard part about football is like you can't really half-ass it. It's why, in basketball, Basketball, you can play all offseason. You can play pick up five-on-five games. It might not be an NBA game, but if you get 10 NBA players, you can play the sport.

In baseball, you can, like, simulate A-Bs against a professional pitcher. In football, I'm going to, if you're listening to this, I'm probably at Niner practice on Tuesday. The practices in the off-season are absolutely nothing like the sport, because you're not in shoulder pads. So you're not hitting. Like, that's an essential element. So you can't really fake it. And then the problem with football in the preseason is, and rightfully so, people are so scared to play their starters. I mean, Sean McVeigh, I think, has been probably the most aggressive the last couple years, has punted on the preseason, has waved the white flag, does not even play anyone, doesn't even dress them, does not even dress them.

And it's worked out pretty well for him. Roger Goodell has kind of acknowledged this is not working out. Let me read his quotes. I feel that we should be doing. what we should be doing is the highest quality. And I'm not sure the preseason games meet that level right now. Yeah, no shit, Raj. I'm not sure talking with coaches that the four preseason games is necessary anymore

to get ready for the regular season to evaluate and develop players. There are other ways of doing that. Now, I disagree there a little bit. The only way that you can evaluate the guy from like 60 to 90 on your roster is preseason games. Because you can't evaluate that much. I guess in training camp you can a little, but you're not doing 11-on-11. It's scrimmage. I would imagine a lot of teams don't even do goal-line drills.

Like, hey, ones-vers-ones, red zone drills, goal-line drills. Not a lot of teams are doing that. So it really, there isn't much place, yeah, I know Odell Beckham's good, or Patrick Mahomes is good, or Julian Edelman's good. But I don't know, like, my seventh round pick relative to my practice squad guy from the previous year, there's not that much time to evaluate them. but let's call it what it is. The NFL and Roger Goodell don't really care about that.

They have to get rid of these preseason games. To me, I'd probably just do two. Now, the curveball in all of this is the next CBA, the players, because of the explosion and probably the bubble that's about to burst in baseball and basketball, the amount those guys are going to get paid, football players are kind of pissed off because they go, why don't we get more guaranteed money?

And I say it all the time. Fans benefit from the last. lack of guaranteed money. Can you imagine if an NFL team had to sign a contract like Chris Paul and had them on the books for three more years at $120 million total, a guy that they would cut right now if they could? It would hinder and hurt the NFL if you had to guarantee money. One, players, once they get over 30, you just get old so fast any moment you snap up a finger, a guy can be terrible. And two, injuries are just a huge element to the sport. I mean, they just play a huge role because it's a very violent game.

but I do think there are going to be arguments we want more guaranteed money and the one thing that Roger is going to be able to say back well we can play more games you guys want more money and it's clearly kind of been an elephant in the room with the owners with the commissioner the 18 game schedule

now you could argue that 16 is probably enough I personally don't need more I'd be fine with just two preseason games and start the season but if the players are adamant and they never have been before because they always crack because they never stand united well enough.

Now, in fairness to them, it's hard. Unlike the NBA, which has 12 players a roster, even baseball, has half as many people a roster as football. There are so many players. So the spectrum of super rich and super low-income guys, again, it's all relative, is really high. There are a lot more low-income guys than the super-rich. Low-income guys kind of need to work.

And the super-rich guys, let's call it, it is like brady doesn't care he just wants to play he wants his money so it's kind of a tough happy medium uh but i would imagine just seeing the way the NFL has operated over the years for preseason games probably on its last leg the next cba the four preseason games will be bye by to me now the question will be i think the NFL will be open to doing some more money stuff with the player contracts but 18 games and that could be a defining moment of roger godell and if you I mean, we've all followed Roger Goodell's career. To me, his defining attribute is money comes first.

So if we lose two preseason games, I'd honestly be shocked if they don't add two more regular season games. Okay, there's a phenomenon. It's just engulfed social media, and I love it. Now, full disclosure, I was never a great beer chugger. That wasn't my go-to. but this thing that David Bactiari started kind of exposed Aaron Rogers

and then from Matt Stafford to Mahomes to Trubisky to Josh Allen at a softball game and I think it kind of symbolizes something about the NFL and there's a reason that for multiple reasons that the NFL dominates in terms of interest one I say it all the time just the nature of the sport you only play once a week

but I'm actually for my other podcast interviewing Mike McGlinchie this week and he went viral for something similar. He basically went to a San Jose Sharks hockey game with all the Huffins of linemen pulled the jersey over his face and they basically waterboarded him with beer. And it's funny. It just kind of resonates with the fans because a lot of the fans are just beer drinking, fun-loving, normal humans. And I think one thing with the NBA,

and I kind of have a theory right now why the NBA ratings are down. The sport feels very elitist. Its players make an astronomical amount of money. Many of them talk down to the fans. The league feels like super progressive and a little out of touch, almost a little extreme. I say it all the time. Most fans are not extreme left or not extreme right. Most humans are somewhere in the middle.

And they don't really enjoy talking about politics. Just talk about sports and hanging out and being fun. What do the best NBA players right now drink? LeBron James always drinks wine. I got news for you. I can't remember the last time unless I'm going to like a nice dinner. Hey, you want to come over and crack open a bottle of wine? Like there's a reason that Trubisky, Josh Allen, Mahomes,

like all this stuff is going viral because it's pretty relatable. Most people can relate to just slamming some beers. It's fun. And I say it all the time about the NFL. Like the NBA. The Warriors are in my business. backyard. Even their team is somewhat of an outlier. None of their core guys beside Durant was a top one or two pick. But it's not like they have a bunch of undrafted free agents. The craziest draft pick

was Draymond Green. I think it was like the third pick of the second round. It was an All-American in college at Michigan State. Steph top seven pick. Clay 11. Uh, Andre Guadala, top 10 pick. So yeah, I mean, they don't have any number one overall picks, but their picks are still top 10 guys in the NFL, look at the amount of patriots that are undrafted free agents or seventh rounders or six rounders. Look at the amount of NFL players that are six, seventh, undrafted free agents that are not guaranteed anything that like most of us in normal walks of life have to earn our first paycheck. At any moment, it can be cut off and taken away. You notice a lot of first rounders eventually kind of get exposed in the NFL because it's about more things than just

talent, just like all of our jobs are. You know, I sell advertisement for my podcast. I got to be pretty aggressive. I'm working on a NFL Hall of Famer to get him on the podcast. Took me like three text message just to get him to respond. I just kind of, I got to be relentless.

I just keep wearing him out. He finally responded for the first time today. And basically all he said was, I'm super busy right now, maybe a little later. But I just got to keep going. It's basically like, I'm a sales guy. That's my lead. Most of you guys can relate.

Like in the NFL, nothing is guaranteed. As you listen to this, the men-niners practice, there are several veterans on this team. Now, the Niners are probably a bad example, but all over the NFL right now, guys are kind of on edge. They know they have first, second, third-round picks, breathing down their neck.

They know they might have that second or third-year practice squad guy that, goddamn, this guy looks pretty good. Coaches are kind of liking this guy. It's a competitive environment. Now, the NBA in Major League Baseball is, But once you sign these contracts, you're kind of on scholarship, where the NFL does a couple things. One, the sport, the competition is much more like a real job.

Like you get fired at any moment. Most of us are at-will employees. We don't have a seven-year guaranteed deal. We can relate to the players. And then the players are just kind of normal. Most of them are kind of blue-collar. Why? Because the nature of the sport has them getting yelled at all the time.

So there's a humility that comes with it. Now, I'm not saying there aren't super cocky guys. There aren't assholes in the sport. Sure, there's that in any company, in any walk of life. But for the most part, and having spent a lot of time around them, coaches included, people are kind of normal. Now, coaches are a little nutty because if you're going to be a coach, you've got to be a little crazy. But they're pretty normal. They can relate to people, you know, to people business.

Where I think the NBA has kind of got away from that. LeBron's sipping wine in his huge mansion. Michael Jordan, while he was elite, he kind of had some relatable qualities. Love to smoke cigars. Love to drink. Love to gamble. You know, most people would be like, yeah, love to golf. You know, love to hoop.

His life was pretty basic. Most of our lives are pretty basic. And I think these quarterbacks, and you know a think piece is coming out from just some crazy journalist, that like, we got to stop all these players from chugging beers. It is a bad look. and then, you know, seven people will read it because no one reads newspapers or the USA Today or whoever, what columnist.

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Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On hurdle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WMBA standout, Kate Martin, and rising hockey star Layla Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't.

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Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama,

the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action, with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kier Games.

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and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch life becomes about wins and losses Steve Burns, Dustin Ross because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid because that's two different intentions bro

absolutely and that's two different levels of trust I want you to just really be a good person Join me, Keir Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Learn the Hardway, and listen now. Write it, but that's coming, but I love it. It's so genius, and it's kind of cool how it organically happened, kind of at the, you know, I mean, Aaron Rogers is the reason this kind of started. He's taking some shit, and I've said over and over. I think he's going to need to redeem himself in a locker room with some of the guys,

maybe just when they're going to summer break, maybe just bring in like a 12-pack of course light and they all can slam them, maybe shotgun them. But he's going to have to do something. But I think this is pretty cool. And it's just sometimes you can't, this is just, I think you're going to see it all summer long when these guys go on Fourth of July stuff. They'll be tweeting it out.

And it makes them very, very relatable. It's very good for the sport. Because it goes, I've done that before in college too. Those guys seem fun. What's the first thing you say when you meet someone famous? Like, was he cool? How do he act?

You'd be like, yeah, I'd like to have a beer with that guy. You know, I'd be like, yeah, Matt Stafford. I'd like to slam a beer with that guy. I'd like to sit at a bar with that guy. And that's what the NFL has a lot of. And they always have, and they definitely do right now. That's why the sport, I mean, an element to why the sport is just so damn popular. The players are relatable.

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International Incorporated. Beneficial State Bank member FDIC 2021. Terms and conditions apply. Visit aspiration.com slash zero for more information. Support for this podcast in the following message comes from American Express. With Amex Platinum, once-in-a-lifetime perks happen all the time. The high-end airport lounges that make layovers enjoyable. The dining perks that open doors to new restaurants.

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former Alabama color radio analyst, and former general manager. We're going to have to dive into this of the AAF Arizona team. I'm sure we're going to talk about that. And my friend, most importantly, Phil Savage. What's up, Phil? John, I'm well, my friend. Yeah, too many former's there.

I need some current stuff. And, of course, I'm still doing a lot of work for Sirius XM radio. But, yeah, with the demise of the Alliance of American Football, at least a month earlier than any of us could have ever anticipated, I'm between assignments right now is the way I'm terming it. Well, let's actually start with the A.F. Because, you know, from the outside, where John Middilcoff sits in Northern California, I think a lot of people that follow you on social media and have heard your name over the years,

they'd go, once you left the NFL and you did the Alabama radio and you ran the Senior Bowl, and it felt like you brought in the Reese's Senior Bowl, it just became a little bit more, a bigger event the last five or six years. When the news came that Phil Savage was leaving the Senior Bowl to run an A-F team, I know I was a little shocked. How'd that decision even kind of take place and materialize? Well, what really happened is that the 2018 Senior Bowl, Bill Pollan, one of the co-founders of the Alliance, was covering the event for ESPN. And while he was on the ground in January, he reached out to me and said, hey, you know, I'd like for you to be one of the GMs of one of our eight teams in this new league that I'm going to be a part of. And I said, well, do I have to interview for it? And he said, no, you know, you don't.

And so a Hall of Fame executive who offers you a job like that, it makes you sit up straight. And so several weeks past, we got into the spring. And as it turned out, he had also talked to Rick Neuheisel about being a coach in the league. Well, Rick and I had worked at UCLA together years ago in 1990 and stayed in touch with each other. We obviously both worked for serious XM. And so I tell Bill, hey, I'll do it if Rick is the coach. and Rick is telling Bill that, hey, I'll do it if Phil Savage is the GM. So it was really a good match, and I felt like that, you know, in the springtime, I definitely wanted to do it.

The question would be, was there a possibility to try to do both? In other words, do the Senior Bowl in the fall in January and then shift gears and go to the alliance. And, you know, I felt like that there was a possibility that that could happen. but in reality, it just was not going to work with the leadership, quite frankly, at the Senior Bowl. And so when the fork in the road presented itself, I just felt like, you know, I feel like that my work in Mobile, which is my hometown, felt like we had kind of maxed it out from where it was when I got there. We had the number one picking the draft in Baker Mayfield. We'd had Josh Allen go seventh over all the quarterback from Wyoming.

you know, at different times. We had 10 first rounders one year. We had, you know, over 90 players drafted several years. And, you know, the sponsors and all those things were in good shape. And I just felt like that, you know, maybe this would be the time to make a move like this. And look, I wouldn't have done it just for anybody. But when the idea became that first of all, it was Bill Pull-in and then secondly, it was going to be with Rick, I'm like, you know, I should go do this again.

My wife was open to it. And so at that time, we didn't even know which team it was going to be. We just knew it would be out west. And so ultimately, we landed in Phoenix, which was Rick's hometown. And I have absolutely zero regrets about making the move because it gave me a chance to be a GM again, A. But B, it just was an unbelievable experience to actually build not only a team, but help put together an entire league. and that was something that we had a lot of fun doing. Yeah, there were some twists and turns along the way,

but it was one of the most enjoyable football jobs I've had. And from a pure football sense, it was really well done. Unfortunately, the business side of things, unbeknownst to Bill Pollan and all of us that were on the football side, it clearly was never in a solid foundation of a financial situation to sustain. itself and it all came crashing to an end on April the 2nd. Well, that's what's pretty crazy, just from a football sense, like you said,

you got a Hall of Fame guy as kind of the overlord of everything, all the coaches and GMs, which are football people first before business, obviously believed in it, and then that opening weekend was pretty cool. I know the television ratings were, you know, high, and then it was clear that we were going to

buy you a bunch of guys who were going to get some NFL shots. And then I remember the first time that maybe a story came out, the league was in financial trouble, and then they had to go get the second, you know, that guy from the Carolina Panthers or whoever the hockey guy was. Is that when you first started getting a little nervous, or did you even think that wasn't even a big deal when that happened? Really, there were two different steps. We had had many camps in December, and between the week after Christmas and before New Year,

it seemed like there was about a three-day period where things kind of went dark, and there were some rumors that, hey, wait a minute, some hotels weren't paid, this, that, and the other. but then we all showed up in training camp in San Antonio on January 3rd, and it was all systems go. And so it was not really a thought for any of us throughout the month of January. We got into February, and after the first game, the first payroll was going to be due for the players. And it was explained to us that there was just a change in the payroll companies, that it had nothing to do with the actual finances.

And, you know, all of us just shrugged our shoulders and felt like, okay, that's the deal. Well, then simultaneous to that is when we find out we're getting a new investor who would actually have decision-making authority over Bill Pullen and Charlie Ebersaw, who were the two co-founders. And I think that was probably the key moment where everybody was like, okay, we've been putting all this together under the two co-founders. now this is a little bit of a variable in the middle of this. And really from that time on, there were some different little rumors along the way. But again, John, never to a point where you felt like we wouldn't at least finish the season. Do you think that guys like yourself, New Heisel, and a bunch of people that have the league, would have got involved? Obviously, Pollian was important, but Charlie Ebersol, who, you know, I don't think most people know,

but they know that last name, and to older people, that name means something because of the power of his father, Dick Ebersole. If his name had been Charlie Middlkoff, would you have been as comfortable getting in the league or did you just place a lot of, I don't know, maybe blind trust because of how powerful the guy's name was? Yeah, I think it really, because the name recognition was Bill Poland

and then obviously Charlie and the connections his dad, and family had to the television networks and just, again, you know, going back to all the combines that we did last summer, and then the quarterback camp, which was a quarterback combine in the fall. Phil, I watched your guys quarterback draft on CBS Sports last year. Yeah, in Las Vegas. I mean, all of that felt as real as anything that I've ever done in football. I mean, it was never a thought that, okay, this is really a,

thinking ship because really all along there were there were different times where questions were asked and inevitably it was always said oh no we're good for at least three years financially viable this is all great news and you know our job was to come in and put the football piece of it together and unfortunately in this situation there apparently wasn't enough checks and balances to make sure that the other side of it was really going in the right direction and But again, from, you know, our players, especially with the hot shots, and I can't speak for all eight teams, but I know for our team, we had a really unique situation in Glendale. We had a building at a place called the Thunderbird School of Global Management that had just recently been purchased by a small college called Arizona Christian University. So they were basically renovating the campus grounds for next fall.

And we were the only ones on that campus. We had our building, which was as good a football building as you would ever see as far as meeting rooms, you know, exos video, training area, all that kind of dining hall. And our players stayed on campus. Then we practiced at the Cardinal Stadium, State Farm Stadium. There's some practice fields outside of that facility. We dressed in practice there. And then our games were at Sun Devil Stadium, which they did a, you know, a beautiful job on the field.

and they welcomed us with open arms. So from our standpoint, I think our players would say, man, you know, this is as close to the NFL as I could possibly be without being in the league. So we took a lot of pride in terms of the work that was done behind the scenes to put all that together. And, of course, I had gone to the Valley, gone out to Phoenix, maybe three or four times, you know, in August, then September.

I was going out there about once a month to try and, identify and then help us get situated in terms of facilities, which was probably the biggest challenge of all of it in terms of finding a place to meet, eat, dress, and practice. You know, you wouldn't think of it, but that's probably the toughest thing about trying to get a league started. When did you find out it was over, and have you ever had any contact since with Charlie? We had a weekly conference call every Tuesday, and I mean, it was like clockwork. 12 o'clock Central, 1 o'clock Eastern, 10 o'clock Pacific,

every Tuesday starting really the middle of last May. And I would tell you, John, that if you could have eavesdropped on those conversations, you would have said, man, this thing is totally legit because it was player personnel, player personnel rules, game rules, officiating, medical scenarios. I mean, anything that you could think of that you would have to be on top of to put a league together, it was discussed in those calls and just a lot of really confident professional people. And so on April the 2nd, which was our Tuesday and our regular conference call, there was obviously some reports overnight on Monday.

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That maybe this thing was coming to a close, and that's when Bill told us all in that conference call that we were to cease operations immediately. And, you know, a couple of the teams were practicing that day because they had a Saturday game. And so they actually had to physically go out and stop to practice. Wow. And I know the San Antonio team, Mike Riley, the head coach, there's a good friend of mine. He told me afterwards that he said, Phil, we were on the field practicing, and 20 minutes later, our guys were walking out of there with garbage bags full of stuff. He said it ended in 20 minutes for us.

Now our situation, we were not in practice that day because we had a Sunday game coming up, so our players were off. And through the social media, TeamWorks app, we were able to communicate with 49 of our 52. Three of our guys had gone home for family situations. So 49 of our players made it back. And, you know, we had a meeting and talked through and walked through everything. And some of the nightmare stories that you heard about other teams, like guys getting kicked out of the hotel and getting charged for stuff. That didn't happen with us, thank goodness. So our guys had somewhat of a smooth transition.

They were allowed to stay in that dorm, you know, for several more days. I think even a couple guys stayed for a week or 10 days afterwards until they could figure out where they were going to go. I mean, you know how that goes. The one negative story, that one's going to go viral, not the positive ones. But, you know, being out here in the Bay Area, I got involved in a startup several years ago that, you know, kind of went belly up just all of a sudden. just ends. I'll be the first

say honestly, you've been doing this longer than me, but I think it sucks, but it's an incredible experience. You really can't get it anywhere else. You know? Just... No, no, you couldn't. And, you know, like I say, I have no regrets about

doing it because, you know, again, it was a lot of fun with Rick as our head coach. We had a really good stack. You know, Nick Allioti came from Oregon. Yeah. We had several really good coaches on the staff. Our players, the thing that I found, John, that was refreshing about it, is that every person involved, essentially, the coaches, the staff, the players.

All of us had been fired, cut, traded, told you weren't good enough, whatever. Everybody had been through the ringer in football. And so now it was just really about your love and passion for the sport and knowing that, okay, this is an opportunity to do something that I do something that I really enjoy doing. And I thought our players were hungry. I thought they were humble. And it was refreshing to be around guys that really were playing. I mean, look, 70 grand is a lot of money for 10 weeks, but it's not NFL money. And so those guys that decided to, you know, put their hat in the ring and try to play, they were doing it because they really loved the game. And they felt like,

okay, this is a way for me to make a living. So there's a lot of good ideas that came from the league, and obviously the XFL is going to try to take their shot at it next spring. I don't know if a spring league is the right approach, or maybe you try to run it simultaneous to the NFL is almost like a true minor league system where players could get called up and those sorts of things. You know, the idea of the alliance was to do it as a spring league.

That's what the XFL is going to do. But I'm not sure that that is really the right approach. I'm almost of the mind that doing it in the fall, simultaneous to all the other football, might be the best way to approach it. Do you own or rent your home? Sure you do. And I bet it can be hard work.

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A.F to Sabin, they're still close with a bunch of people in the NFL. It does feel like the business of the NFL. I mean, I'm someone that also worked in the NFL, but now I make a living off just talking about it. And because there's so many crazy, salacious stories, I'm able to do well. And so many people care. Do you think the, I don't know how to put this, but like the expansion of media and the business element of football has impacted or changed the sport? or it's still football's football and it's just extra noise that the good coaches are able to kind of, you know, cancel out?

Well, I just think that the popularity of the sport, it's gotten to the point where, you know, a lot of people want to play, a lot of people want to coach, a lot of people want to scout. I mean, John, when I went to the Browns in 1991, I think we had like 12 coaches and maybe six scouts. Now you look at the NFL, and like Tampa Bay this year, they've got 20. 28 coaches on their roster. How many does Nick Saban have? And, you know, in college, I mean, you have 10 official coaches, but then you have really as many analysts almost as you want. And so the explosion of people, you know, that are in the game,

connected to the game, and obviously the dollars that are available out there, I think that's probably part of the motivation for people wanting to get into it. I mean, look, when I started almost 30 years ago, you got into it because you love the sport and you want a coach or you want a scout or whatever it's going to be. And, you know, you serve as a grad assistant for a number of years and you don't make a lot of money for about six, seven years until finally, you know, you get a real opportunity. And now with the fast track that people are on, not only players, but coaches and scouts, I mean,

look, this year, you know, just look at the hiring cycle of the coaches this year. You know, I would say that 20 years ago, you know, you couldn't have gone from being a one-year coordinator to being a head coach. Now, there have been exceptions. I mean, Andy Reid never officially called plays in Green Bay before he became the coach at Philadelphia. But, you know what I'm saying is everything now happens so much faster. You know, you draft the rookie quarterback in days gone by. You could red shirt or sit him for a year, no worries. Now if the guy sits for four weeks, that seems like.

like 10 years. It does. As anxious as people are about getting quarterbacks on the field. Do you think, because you've been around Belichick and Sabin, and I've read your book on, you know, talk a lot about saving any Belichick and just reading the Belichick book,

I can 100% say both those two individuals, they both make, you know, combined probably $20, $25 million between their two salaries, but they did not get into football for the money. They got into it because they loved football. It does feel like a lot of coaches now, and like you could say the same thing about assistant coaches, just young coaches in general and scouts are in it maybe for the wrong reasons, or do you still think a lot of guys are coaching because they like coaching? I mean, you've seen it, I mean, you've seen a ton of coaches come through Sabin's operation the last five, six years. Do you think that's impacted at all, the money in the sport? John, I have to think that it does.

I mean, look, I want to say that the purity of it is still there. You know, people finish up playing and they decide they want to go into coaching or, you know, go into scouting. I mean, look, in 25 years ago, most of your scouts were former coaches. You know, they had already spent time in the NFL and then they would bump over to another side of the building. Nowadays, these 20-somethings, they're starting off with the idea that they're going to go into scouting. So that's a lot different now than it was back then. But I would have to say that the dollars probably are more attractive and have attracted more people to the game. And I would even restrict it to football.

I mean, I would play all sports. When you consider the amount of coverage that it gets, it's so visible. to just the average person. And then when you dig into the dollars, I think that, you know, obviously people are drawn to it for that reason. But you're right about Bill Belichick and Nick Saban. I think certainly there's got to be some piece of pride to say, okay, nobody makes more money than I do as a coach.

But I don't think that either one has ever focused on what they were making. I think at a certain point they turned it over to the representative. and those guys kind of handle that for them. And, you know, the rest of it, like I say, if you drop Bill Belichick in the middle of South Dakota at a high school and said, hey, you're going to coach the long snappers and special teams, he'd do it better than any coach in the country for whatever the salary was. If you took Nick Saban and said,

hey, we're going to, you know, pay you $100,000 to be the defensive back coach at Duquesne, you know, he would go there and do it better than anybody at, that level, I'm sure, because that's just their makeup. That's who they are. Who do you think likes football more, Nick or Bill? Oh, wow. You know, I think that, I think, golly, I guess how I would separate it, I think Bill may have more appreciation for the history of the sport because of his

father and just the fact that, you know, he just grew up around it at a young age. it's all he's really ever known, and I think that he has such a respect for the game. I would say with Nick Saban, it wouldn't have mattered had he chosen basketball or hockey or another sport. His competitive nature is really the driving force behind his success. And so I don't think he's really worried about history. He's not worried about the future. He's worried about today and trying to win whatever game is going on that particular day. Of course, I wrote that book, Forcing Goal Every Day.

Yeah. And that's the sense you have of it when you're there. Everybody has a job to do, and they're expected to be on point every single day, other than the few weeks of vacation that they get over the course of a year. Would you say Bill Nick might be the most intense football coach? Would you say Bill's the smartest when you just factor in the total package? I mean, you saw it from the ground floor. or when no one really knew, I mean, the people knew who he was because he had been a coordinator for Parcells,

but as a first-time head coach, and it seems like you guys still talk about to this day, it was clear this guy was just on a different level. Yeah, I would say that for both of them, you know, the football intellect is there. Secondly, the incredible work ethic is there. And then thirdly, they both have really adjusted with the times. I mean, you know, you look at the coach's ages. I mean, it's Bill Belichick, Nick Say, even Pete Carroll, there's a handful of guys in their 60s, but it's a young man's sports.

Yeah, sure. And, you know, I would say that, you know, one of the differences between them is obviously, you know, Nick is like a rolling thunderstorm. You know, he's going to come through and it's going to be high winds and thunder and a lot of lightning and then it'll be over, you know, whereas Bill, you know, he's more reserved, but, you know, his ability to say something in a sarcastic way, Believe me, get the point across in much the same manner as the same manner as if you say get chewed out by Nick Saban. I mean, totally different approaches, but, you know, both of them have a way of motivating their people.

And, you know, it just really goes down back to their to their personality. I mean, I've always thought Coach Belichick was somewhat of a shy person in reality and somewhat, you know, you know, more reserved, whereas, you know, where Nick is also very shy and an introvert, you know, in small groups, but in front of a large crowd, I mean, he can command, you know, the 1,500 person audience where they take in every word that he says. So it's interesting, the contrast between the two,

but like I say at the very beginning, the three things, the football intellect, the work ethic, and then the adaptability. To me, that's really what separated those two from everybody else. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it was crazy about Sabin's team coming back this year. As you would say, you know, and you'd have a front row seat for the majority of this tenure, has been defined by defense. Well, it does feel like this year he has the best quarterback over this run coming back into a, and Jerry Judy, I mean, let's start with Jerry Judy.

I mean, how good is this kid? Is he, obviously, if the top two guys would be Julio and Amari, I guess Calvin Ridley's throwing his hat in the rain. He's pretty damn good, too. is this guy that level? I mean a top five pick in this upcoming draft? Because that's where the buzz feels like that. Yeah, Jerry is, you know, he's a slippery when wet kind of player out in space. I mean, he is, he's quick, he's fast, he's agile, he catches the ball, he's got really good instincts.

He understands how to, you know, get open and stay open. If I were rating them, I mean, look, this is just kind of a blind dark throw, but My respect for Julio Jones is way up there because I saw Julio as a ninth grader when he came, an eighth grader actually, when he came to my football camp down here in South Alabama. You know, he's a phenom. He's like 6-1-190 pounds as an eighth grader. He's better than most average high school kid there. You know, he's lived up to the height at every stop, whether it's been from high school to college,

college to the NFL. And that is hard to do. Yeah, it really is. And I think Amari Cooper, to me, has been the second best receiver that Bama produced, even though he went a couple spots higher than Julio. But, you know, that's a year-to-year draft value thing. I thought Calvin Ridley was a nice player.

Obviously, he went the first round, but it was at the bottom end of the first round to Atlanta. I thought that was probably about the right spot. And with Jerry Judy, I would say that if he plays as well as he's capable of this year, he would have a chance to be up there with Amari Super. I'm not going to put him in the Julio category because Julio's a freakish height, weight speed prospect. And, you know, Judy's probably going to check in at like 6-1-190 in that range. So he's just really, really skilled, but he's an excellent player.

There's no two ways about it. What about the quarterback? I mean, is he a legitimate number one overall guy? You know, John, I think if you just take Tua for what he is, which is a guy that's got very good eyes, he's got a quick release, and he has mobility. There's no reason to think that he wouldn't be a top tick

with this caveat. He has not really stayed healthy the whole time he's been Alabama. He arrived as a mid-year, broke his hand. He ended up backing up Jalen Hertz for the fall, then got in, obviously, and help Bama win the national championship at the end. Then all the hype last year, you know, same thing.

Had another little injury in the spring. Then got into the season, had an ankle and a knee, and really wasn't the same player in November and December that he was in September and October. And, you know, to me, that's something that you have to assess, is ruggedness, durability. You're talking about 16 to 20 weeks in the NFL. I mean, it is a tough year in that league.

And does he have the lower body durability? I mean, on the hoof, he does. I mean, you know, he's thick-legged. He measured in this spring a shade over six feet and then 230 pounds. So I think he was up about 10 pounds from where he was last season. So I don't know if he tried to gain the weight to give himself a little bit more girth. I don't know that. But, I mean, look, if a team is drafted number one,

one and they run sort of a West Coast, you know, quick rhythm passing game, then I don't see how he would be, you would pass him. If the team is more of a play action pass, you know, want to sit the guy in the pocket and throw from the apex of his drop, then maybe he wouldn't be the choice. And a team would, you know, look at a Justin Herbert or somebody else. But, I mean, too, is going to be, he's going to be dissected this year unlike probably any quarter. quarterback we've seen come through in a while. I would agree there. You told me something a while back when Jimbo had Florida State humming.

You said he recruits an SEC player, but he plays an ACC schedule. And now that Florida State's falling off, Clemson just picked it up and ran with him, probably better. They're kind of doing the same. I mean, you saw the draft. They're pumping out Alabama-level players, and hell, they just beat Alabama. And now it was a little freaky because they had all these guys come back that usually would have gone pro, but you live in Alabama. I mean, you know this program well.

Do you think they've caught them? Do you think it was just kind of an outlier season? I know they beat him before, but that game was a coin flip game where last year was a blowout. Do you think, you know, and I think the big question is one day Sabin's going to retire, Davosweeney played at Alabama, but are we sure that would you want to follow Nick Sabin when you could just stay at Clemson and make huge cash and guarantee, you know, you know, easier road to the playoffs every year? I just, you know, is Clemson, would you say it's caught up to Alabama,

and do you picture of Dabo leaving Clemson when it's all said and done to replace Nick whenever he retires? Yeah, John, a lot to discuss there. This spring, when Clemson extended Davo and made him a $9 million a year coach, I thought the way they structured that deal really put him in a situation where now he doesn't have, to explain to anybody what he's doing. He can stay at Clemson from now until the end of the deal, or after about six years or so, once that buyout goes down, then he probably would have the option to go back.

And what I'm saying is I think that new contract extension buys him enough time for Alabama to see what they're going to do. In other words, is Nick Saven going to be done in the next year or two, or is he really going to go another six or seven years? But my point of it is that I think there's enough time in there that if Nick Saban did step away, somebody else could go in there, and then you could see Davo come back.

I don't think there's a snowball chance in Hades that he follows Nick Sabin directly at Alabama. And he may never come back to Alabama. I mean, look, he's got a pretty good thing going. He's built his own program, He's put his own name on it. He's beloved there. And, you know, it's nice to be wanted.

And as long as he stays at Clemson and keeps winning, he'll always be wanted. And he'll be seen as, you know, kind of like the number one choice to come back to Bama. Whereas, you know, if you actually come back and then it doesn't go as well, you, you know, you tarnish your legacy a bit. But I'll say this. I think the name to keep an eye on for Alabama as we move into the future is actually Freddie Kitchens, the new coach of the Browns. And the reason I say that is if you look at the history of Vama when coach Paul Bear Bryant retired and then unfortunately passed away, who did they go get?

They went and got Ray Perkins from the New York Giants. Then after Bill Curry followed Ray Perkins and they were looking for a coach, who did they go get? They went and got Gene Stallings from the Arizona Cardinals. And so, and then, you know, the most recent coaching change, they've got Mike Shuland, place, he's not doing well. Who did they go get? They've got Nick Saban from the Miami Dolphins. So that's three coaches in a row who had some degree of success over the years that came directly from the NFL.

And I think, you know, who knows how Freddie Kitchens is going to do? The expectations are very high. They may go on and win the Super Bowl. And if they do, maybe he'll stay up there forever. But I do think that he'll be one of the top two or three names, regardless if that job were to open. in the next couple years or eight years from now, I think he'll be on that list.

Yeah, that would be pretty crazy. And you've been to Cleveland before. I mean, that's the hype on that team right now feels a little overzealous given that they were. I think Baker Mayfield's record last year was one in five against winning teams. That town, I mean, if they don't start, what happens, Phil, if the Brown start one and two? Wouldn't people start freaking out immediately?

I mean, the expectations of them making the playoffs, when they just haven't gone in recent memory, it just seemed a little out of whack. Yeah, the last winning season, John, was in 2007. When I was still the GM and Romeo Cornell was the head coach. Now, we flopped, you know, the following year in 2008, but since then they haven't even had a winning season. And, you know, most of the time people do things in stages.

And so you would think that the next stage, really, for the Browns, would be to get to 500 or 9 and 7 and really can, 10 for a playoff birth. And I think, look, in that division, which that division is taking a step back, I think, this off season, relative to what it's been in years past. I mean, I remember saying one time to one of the riders there in Cleveland, you know, years ago, I'm like, you know, the truth of it is, the Browns are fighting for third place with Cincinnati as long as Flacco is in Baltimore with that defense.

And Big Ben is in Pittsburgh with that defense. And they said, well, that might be another decade. I'm like, exactly. And you know what? It's been a decade before now. There's some cracks in that division where maybe the door opens a little further for Cleveland to get into the mix. Well, Phil, I'll let you run. You know, you're just a man with many talents.

You've done it all. You know, most football people have only done one thing. You have about eight million things on your resume. They want you to call a game. They want you to run a senior ball. They want you to run a team. I mean, what can't you do is my question? Well, I'll tell you this, John.

As you know, in the NFL, when you're GM, if you get fired, the likelihood of you getting a second opportunity are few and far between. And there are a few out there, John Dorsey. Why do you think that is? You've always told me that, and it's true. Yeah. Do you have a theory line? In New York.

And I think, you know, really, there's a couple reasons for it. A lot of times now when GM opening, occur, the teams will promote someone from within, like this year, Miami, it was Chris Greer, who's already on the scene there. In Baltimore, it was Eric Acosta, taking over for Ozzie Newsom. So there's some familiarity with an in-house candidate. Plus, typically, it doesn't cost as much to promote somebody from within as it does to go get a stranger from outside the organization. And then I think the other thing, too, is once you're a GM, your record's going to travel with you. and it's hard to sell a GM who has a losing record to your city, to your fan base,

maybe even to your own organization, when in reality, we see it happen with coaches all the time. Coaches get recycled each and every year. And so for whatever reason in the GM world, that doesn't happen. And where I was going with that story is that in 2009, that spring after I'd gotten fired from the Browns, I told my wife that I said, I don't know what could happen, but I really don't think it's a reality that I could get another shot, at least right now. And I said, I'm going to try to expand my resume in a lot of different directions so that if one thing dries up, we'll just keep right on going with something else. And I never imagined that, you know, 10 years would pass, and I would have had the opportunity to do some of the things that I've been able to do, whether it's, you know, work for ESPN on the insider.

show or call the Alabama games as the color analysts. I mean, those are all things that I love to do. Working for serious XM has been, you know, just an absolute joy to be able to talk about college and pro football, you know, year-round. So all of those kinds of things have been fun, and hopefully, hopefully people think I've been decent at it. I've enjoyed you, Phil. That's, I can say that.

I could say that. Does Nick Saban miss you? Does he text you every once in a while? Wonder when you're coming home? He moved on. God Hardley. He moved on. He moves on to the next battle, the next competition,

the next thing that's on the radar. And, you know, like I said earlier, he's got an amazing ability to segment things over the course of a calendar a year. And as long as those things remain in the prophet, for order. He's going to be on point with most everything he does. But, you know, Clemson, I mean, we'll see how Clemson is this year. They lost a lot of talent. They still have arguably the best quarterback in college in Trevor Lawrence. And you're right, though, in terms of

them accumulating SEC talent playing an ACC schedule. They may not have to be, you know, quite at their peak throughout the regular season, like, say, a Georgia or in Alabama or an Auburn would have to be LSU maybe. My gym is also a hotel. And today there was a guy sitting in a hotel in an Auburn Polo. And so I'm waiting for a coffee, and I'm kind of eavesdropping. And I hear him saying, he's on the phone talking about offers. And I was like, wow, I bet that's a football coach out here spring recruiting.

You know, Dela Sals right down the street. And it's just crazy to me in these Auburn, Alabama. I know Oklahoma, obviously, I mean, all the big schools. it's not just in their backyard. I mean, they're going all over the country to find players. They just, because there's no expense that's in their way. So I would imagine it was Auburn football out here looking at football players. Yeah, there's no expense.

And then the other thing is on the other side of it, the players and their families, they're more familiar with teams and programs on the other side of the country than they've ever been before. I know. Because of television and because of social media. and, you know, obviously these coaches move around a lot, so sometimes a guy will go from the East Coast to the West Coast or the opposite direction, and, you know, he'll bring a pocket full of players with him

because of the relationships that he built at his previous school. So, yeah, everything's wide open now in that regard. And I want to say this past year for Bama, now this is quite a departure from the 70s and 80s, but I want to say this year of like they're starting 22. there's like 15, 16 of their starters were from out of state. That's crazy. So they definitely subscribe to the idea of national recruiting.

But I will say this. When you say that, when you get to the Iron Bowl, one of the concerns that Nick Savans always had is that when Alabama gets to that Auburn game, the kids now don't realize what a huge rivalry it is. They think LSU is the team they have to be. beat. And the truth of it is is that the Iron Bowl means more to more people in this part of the country than any other game. But sometimes these players come from other parts of the country and they don't grasp that until they get into it. Well, because as a California guy, if you

ask me, I mean, I know the Iron Bowl is a big deal, but what's the Alabama's biggest game every year? I'd like, well, LSU, you know, because it's always the, you know, five o'clock game on ESPN. It's just a big deal. It always feels the biggest because it usually has national championship implications too. Not that the Iron Bowl doesn't, but the LSU game maybe is a little more sexy, at least for us outsiders. That's what it feels like.

Yeah, and you know, LSU obviously for a good stretch of time there has been the game. In other words, the winner of that game had a chance to go on to the BCS or perhaps the SEC title game which would lead to the playoffs.

So that's kind of the first big hurdle for both schools. And then you know, for Alabama when they, if they clear LSU, then the attention turns to Auburn. But it is kind of an interesting dynamic, the way that college recruiting, how much it's changed. I've said this, John, and I know you want to wrap up, but, you know, while Nick Saven's going to go down as maybe the greatest college coach in the history of the sport, his most influential contribution to the sport has nothing to do with X's and O. It has all to do with the recruiting of the Jimmy's and the Joe.

I agree. You look at it. When he came to Alabama, nobody else had player personnel departments. Now they do. Now they have literally staffers, student assistants, grad assistants, analysts, people that are assigned to those 10 coaches to help put these recruiting classes together via the evaluation, via the communication. And they've just, now every major school in the country,

has a player personnel department. As a matter of fact, last week, I've been hosting a scout school for each of the last six years, and we had kids come in from as far away as Oregon and UC Davis to as close as Tulane and Florida and South Carolina and Alabama, and all those people that came to the school last week,

they would not even have been, they would even have had a job, you know, 10, 12 years ago, but now with the advent of these players, personnel department in college, there's just a huge amount of people that are involved in terms of the evaluations and then the recruitment of these high school players. Well, it's funny as I had Drew Hill on from Oklahoma that I used to work with at Fresno State. I think you know him.

He now is, you know, he came there with Bob Stoops and then he stayed with Lincoln, and he has multiple people that work under him. He's only in charge of recruiting. Him and Lincoln just deal with the 85 scholarships. he's basically acts as like, I guess the head coach is the GM, but he's like the assistant GM, you know, just in charge of every offer they make, every coach that goes out spring recruiting.

Like you said, I mean, Sabin, and he once interviewed with Sabin, I mean, it completely changed the game, and every single major program that has, you know, that's trying to win a national championship, has basically copied them, and rightfully so. Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating. and a lot of the guys that, you know, have gotten their start at Alabama

and then, you know, spun off from there to other colleges. But I'm really, this is a totally different subject, but this little scout school we started it five years ago. And, you know, just in the last five years, we've had 16 attendees come through that are now scattered across 12 different NFL teams. So, you know, guys came in here with the hopes that, hey, I'm in college, but I ultimately want to jump to the NFL. and 16 of them have been able to do that over the last five years.

So it seems to be a program that works, especially for the ones that try to apply, you know, what we teach them. Well, I get this all the time, and I know you probably get it 10 times more than me. How do I get into football? How do I get into football? And I got in as a graduate assistant on the recruiting side. I know you did it on the coaching side, but now there are so many opportunities with all these guys at major programs. If you're just a student, these programs, they're just, you go in there and cut. tape, they have opportunities.

You just need to go in and ask. Now, they may not pay off the bat, but it will lead to other things because there's never been more jobs in college football on the recruiting side, which is basically scouting, and then that always kind of is the bridge that leads you to the NFL. I mean, that's kind of the catalyst that most people in the NFL started in college in some form or fashion. Yeah, John, we had 20 participants, and I would say a third of them, maybe even half, just cycling through it in my head real quick.

They are all undergrads. In other words, they can be walking in there with, you know, their program shirt on, but they're undergrads already working towards a career in player personnel. So these guys are, you know, jumping on that horse very early, which is so, so different than it used to be. Because in the old days, you had to at least spend some time in coaching before you even thought about going into scouting.

and now people can start off in scouting without ever coaching a down. So the opportunities are definitely there. Well, thanks again, Phil, and I guess you're probably headed to dinner. Enjoy dinner. John, I am. My wife's got a big project. She started at Arts and Music Festival and Workshop. And it's all this week.

It's actually been over the last 10 days. So she has some world-class singers and actors and actresses from New York and across the country that have descended to lower Alabama, and they're going to have a number of shows this week, so I'm going to go get changed and go do that. But, man, I'm happy and proud of everything you've done. It's just been fun to watch you develop this media profession that you have and obviously grow your company as much as you have.

Thanks, Phil. Really appreciate it. Any first-round draft picks in the musicians or some seconds or thirds or? I tell you what now some of these people I mean this is like legit talent it'll bring a tear it'll bring a tear to your eye you've been to a Broadway show I'm sure I have like if you go to a really good one

and they they are like really you know really gifted it's just amazing some of the the talent that the people have so I admire what they do it's not my world but I definitely recognize their ability well have a good night Phil talk to you soon okay John thank you bye I appreciate Well, hope you guys enjoyed that. And I told a little white lie there.

I've never been to a Broadway show. But, you know, you just got to go with the flow sometimes. Be back on Friday. Middlecoff mailbag questions at John Middlecoff on Instagram. Get up in there. If I'll answer some of you manually this week. And see you a little later this week. Some mandatory mini camps going around the league.

I'm sure we'll get some good stories as the week goes on. And hope you enjoyed it. See it. Talk to you soon. Peace. Hey, Singles, do you feel like a tourist in your own town? Too busy to enjoy all your city has to offer? Events and Adventures organizes up to 30 unique get-togethers around town each and every month. We do all the work, so you have all the fun.

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