The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Middlekauff – 3 & Out – Jets GM mess; NFL doesn't need a draft lottery; Guest: Oklahoma Dir. Player Personnel Drew Hill on Baker, Kyler and Jalen Hurts

Episode Date: May 17, 2019

Subscribe here to the 3 and Out with John Middlekauff Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/3-and-out-with-john-middlekauff/id1352730623?mt=2.  In this episode, Middlekauff looks at the aftermath of the Jets firing GM Mike Maccagnan in favor of Adam Gase, why the NFL doesn't need an NBA-type lottery, and talks with University Oklahoma director of Player Personnel on the programs big time recruiting momentum, having the last two #1 picks in the NFL Draft, what he expects out of Jalen Hurts in his first year in Norman, and why CeeDee Lamb will have a huge year. Follow John on twitter @JohnMiddlekauff and go to www.theherdnow.com to find the latest content. Subscribe now! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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pursuant to licensed by MasterC International Incorporated. Beneficial State Bank member FDIC 2021. What is going on? John Middlecock, three and out podcast. Back at it again, a little bit different of a show this week. Have a good friend of mine, a very unique interview coming up. the director of personnel, he's basically like the general manager, of the University of Oklahoma.

He works side by side with Lincoln Riley, my friend Drew Hill, who actually hired me at Fresno State. Bob Stoops originally hired him at Oklahoma. He's been there with Baker, been there with Kyler. Now they have Jalen Hertz from Alabama, Hollywood Brown, has been a part of recruiting all these players, kind of a unique perspective that you just, you know, you hear a lot of GMs talk and you hear a lot of coaches talking in the NFL.

you hear coaches talking college football, but I don't know if I've ever heard an interview with the guy that runs the personnel department of a major college program. So I think it's really cool, a good friend of mine. I'm really happy for him. He's crushing it. They're crushing it.

I think they've won the conference now four years in a row. Have the top number of... I mean, you're listening to a guy that's been a part of a program now that's had the number one pick in the draft the last two years has been two quarterbacks. And two unique quarterbacks. You know, Baker's a little bit more traditional besides his size, but his game is traditional in the sense that he's a pocket quarterback,

he's an accurate quarterback, but Kyler's about as unique as you're going to get. He's barely 5-10, he's a runner, but he's extremely accurate. And Drew spent a lot of time around those two individuals. Then we talk about Hollywood Brown, C.D. Lamb, who he thinks is a star. I mean, I agree with him. Who's going to be a first-round pick this year if he can stay, if he stays healthy, which, you know, as Drew alludes to him on the podcast, he thinks he's poised for a massive year.

And he's already had two back-to-back massive years. So he's a first-round player and just kind of BS a little bit. So that was fun. And then the big news, I guess, a couple days ago about the Jets, blowing out Mike McCagden and his right-hand man, Heimerdinger, have some thoughts on that. And then, you know, should the NFL ever go to a draft lottery? Because I'm sure many of you, if you're listening to this,

I mean, it's just great theater, watched the NBA lottery, and it was incredible. I mean, you're on the edge of your seats waiting to know if the Knicks can get Zion. If the NFL should ever think about implementing it, because you know the NFL, they love television shows. They love things that move the needle, that fans would love. It would be an awesome show, but at the end of the day, looking into some stuff last night, the NFL just doesn't need to do it. I'm not going to do a Middlethoff mailbag this week. For those of you guys that are new listening to the podcast, at John Middloughoff,

is my Instagram handle, DMs are wide open, you slide right in, and then I answer your question. You can ask anything, literally anything. Mainly football related, but if you want to throw a curveball in there,

I'm cool with it, at John Middlecoff, my Twitter handle, also my Instagram handle, my DMs are open on Instagram, slide right in, and I do the Middlecoff mailbag basically every podcast

that I don't have a guest. So I'll come, I guess, when's my next podcast? We'll be out Tuesday. We'll have the Middle Coff Mailbag in there. But let's start with the Jets. I've only worked really in two businesses, in football and then in radio.

And for the most part, in the NFL, I was pretty lucky. I mean, I was around multiple GMs, Brett Veach, obviously, Howie Roseman, guys like Lewis Riddick that are, you know, crushing on ESPN. Phil Savage, who's been a GM, and now running, you know, ran the Senior Bowl, and then ran an AAF team. He's been on ESPN, done a lot of stuff. a bunch of lower level guys on that staff are now doing bigger and better things. I was on a really good staff. The only guy that has really failed was Ryan Grixon.

And I think most people on that staff, most of them work in the NFL and they would never tell you. So I'll tell you. We all knew that he was going to fail. He wasn't very good. And that was my first experience with like, God, this guy is in this great position and then he got an incredible job with the Colts

and he shouldn't have. And then in radio, I work for middle management. You often, you know, you've seen movies and stuff that just make fun of middle management. And I could never really relate because I'd never been around it. And then I saw it in radio, middle management making, you know, three, 400 gur, and you wouldn't have the individual that I worked for. You wouldn't trust them to walk your dogs across the street. And it's no different in, you know, in any walk of life, right?

People get jobs that they have no business getting, whether they're friends with the right person, whether they're friends with the person that's influencing the hiring position. We all can relate. If you run a business, hopefully you try to avoid hiring people like this, if you work for just different business, especially bigger companies, you work with a lot of slapies. And sometimes a sloppy can have a very, very important job. Now, if you're at the top of the food chain, you're eventually going to get exposed. Mike McCagnan had no business.

I repeat, zero business ever being a general manager. But at the end of the day, he was tight with the guy that was influencing the person making the hire. And that was Charlie Casterly, who had hired him with the Houston Texans and was in the ear of Woody Johnson when he was looking for a GM. And then it was clear, in his tenure with the New York Jets, he never should have been a GM. He had no business being a GM.

And this offseason is a perfect. example of this guy's being over his head. Here's the thing. Adam Gase, he should not, he's the interim GM right now. I think it's pretty clear they're going to go after Joe Douglas with the Eagles, hire someone than he knows, and he just wants to coach. He is dependent on having a good personnel guy with him. But one thing's clear, whatever you think about Adam Gase,

it can't really be argued that he's a pretty good offensive coach, and what he did in Miami that first year with Ryan Taneyhill, they made the playoffs. and what he's done with Peyton Manning, what he did the year with Jay Cutler in Chicago. Adam Gase has proven, now he might have some flaws, but he can coach, and he can especially coach offense.

Now, can he get along with people? Will he be able to figure it out with Greg Williams, you know, that was somewhat of an arranged marriage? I don't know. But I know that Adam Gase deserved to be a head coach again. Mike McAgnon will never, I repeat, never sniff being a general manager again. but Adam Gays, the entire league, and I talked about it earlier this week with Levion Bell.

Levion Bell not showing up for training, or not training camp, but voluntary workouts. And as I said, when you get to big boy jobs and when you get paid a lot of money, some things are voluntary and they're actually mandatory. The Jets, who Mike McAgnon was bidding against no one. I know a team that was in the running for Levon Bell that was basically going to get him for a one-year, million dollar deal. And they almost tripled that by giving them two years and almost 30 million dollars is essentially what the deal works out to be. But Levi-on-Bell not showing up these first several weeks of mandatory mini-camp. Don't get it twisted. It's voluntary. I would imagine

Levion Bell, beside the injured guys, was the only person on the Jets roster not participating in stuff. That's an embarrassment when you were just, the Jets bailed Levion out. of financial hell because he had embarrassed himself by turning down the $15 million. Then the entire league, the market spoke. I think Levion Bell's kind of a sloppy, but I will never say that he's not a baller. He is arguably the total pack, the best running back in the league, him or Gurley when Gurley's healthy. You could probably throw Zeke in there too.

But Levion, when you factor in, he can run inside, he can run outside, he can catch the ball, you can flank him out wide as a wider seat, he can do it all. He can literally do it all. This guy, a guy that could do it all that had fresh legs, the entire league said, I pass. And I get running backs aren't that valued, but the entire league said, not feeling it. Adam Gase, reports have come out, did not want him, especially for that price tag. And McCagnan still did it.

And to me, the moment Levion Bell stopped showing up exposed McCagnan. Like this guy, is he just playing fantasy football? Because one, who was he bidding against? And then two, if Adam Gase is going, listen, we're overpaying this guy, this is stupid to give him this much money. The moment he doesn't arrive, and again, do you understand these off-season workouts, this isn't the late 70s or 60s Vince Lombardi double-day training camp? These players are there for five or six hours. You work out, you eat lunch, you go to some meetings, OTAs haven't even started. And this was a guy that missed a year of football.

To me, firing Mike McCatt, what took so long? I see a lot of people saying the Jets are a mess. To me, the Jets are a mess. If anything, I tip my hat and give him some credit. Get rid of this guy. Get that guy out of the building. He was so in over his head. Let's call it what it is.

Did he really hire Adam Gase? Like, Adam Gase was by far their only option once Matt Ruhl turned him down because they tried to dictate the staff to Matt Ruhl. And I think at the end of the day, the Jets are better off with Adam Gase because you have Sam Darnold. You need a guy that can coach. quarterbacks. And you can't really be disputed that Adam Gays can coach quarterbacks and Adam Gays can coach offense. So I give the Jets some credit.

They, whether the timing is right or wrong, you could argue it's never a bad time to do the right thing. Now, sometimes it can look bad optically on the outside. Like, why did you wait three weeks after the draft? Just get rid of the guy. So I think the Jets made the right move. I think Levyon Bell has been a disaster so far. Is he going to be good on the field? Yes, he's a good player. But is he somewhat toxic in the locker room? Are already some of these players going, this guy's one of the highest paid players on the team?

He's not even around. And again, we're not, you know. Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect. We were God's chosen kingdom on earth. He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian businessman catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back. Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets,

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You need to tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my. my life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind.

Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear.

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The question is, how do you conquer them? On hurdle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WNBA standout Kate Martin and rising hockey star Layla Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain.

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At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games.

And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get started. so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch life becomes about wins and losses steve burns dustin ross because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid because that's two different intentions bro absolutely and that that's two different levels of trust i want you to just really

be a good person join me keir gains is we have real conference conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the hard way and listen now. Carrying luggage or, you know, 100 pound dumbbells up a mountain 10 hours a day in off-season workouts in phase one and phase two. We're in the wait room for a couple hours.

We're on the field for a couple hours. We eat breakfast. We eat lunch and we go home. And we do this like four days a week. It is not that hard. All these players show up because they have all these kickers in their contract. It's an easy $150, $250, $250,000, whatever the incentive is. It's easy money.

I mean, it's the easiest money they'll ever make because the money they make in the fall is really hard. Practice is intense. The season is intense. Games are really intense. This is not intense at all. You get to hang out. I mean, Google or go to Twitter and you see the Niners have been doing this and it's happening all around the league. Guys are out and about, having fun.

drinking beers at dinner, going to basketball games, going to hockey games, BSing. But it's kind of a time when your team comes together. Again, when you watch, and I follow a lot of the teams on Twitter, their videos of the players, I would imagine 98% of the league is attending all these workouts. Because again, it's really easy. So at the end of the day, McCaghan should have been fired long ago. But to me, the Levion Bell, even more than the CJ Mosley, because yeah, they overpaid CJ Mosley, solid player.

But whatever, he's there. They need a team leader. To me, the levy on bell thing was just a nail in the coffin for his Jets career. This clip is brought to you by State Farm. At State Farm, they know it's important to ensure the things you love. They also get that everyone has a budget. That's why they have options, like insuring your car and your home, getting you great rates on both.

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eBay Motors. Let's ride. Okay, let's touch on this thing called the draft. And the draft, the other night in the NBA, was as captivating of a television show as you'll find. I mean, I was on the edge of my seat, because of Zion the buzz. Obviously, the NFL draft every year, same deal, especially the first round. Well, I saw a lot of people tweeting,

and it got me thinking, should the NFL implement a draft lottery? And my first response was, hell yeah, how fun would that be? Then I realized they don't need it at all. The reason that the NBA has had a lottery forever, and especially now that they've changed the lottery is to disincentivize tanking

because in the NBA, one player can change everything. And same thing with the NFL when it comes to quarterbacks. But the major difference in the NFL than the NBA is the NBA, and I follow the NBA closely, the last four or five years, tanking has become an epidemic. There is probably, you could argue, close to a third of the league. There are 30 teams, around 10 of the league,

them tank, actively tank, actively try to lose games. To me, it's a big reason why the NBA has suffered in the ratings. People are tired, like so many markets aren't even trying to win. The resting players with the NFL, they just don't have that issue. There are only 16 games, one, they never rest players, and even when there is a great quarterback, maybe week 17 teams actively tank, but I looked last year, and I'm in my backyard, I happen to have two of the worst teams from 2018, the 49ers and the Raiders. Both teams, I repeat, both teams were 2 and 10 heading into December. Two and 10. Both teams. The Raiders are a great example. They were two and 10, and they, even more than the Niners, the Niners lost Jimmy Garoppolo. They didn't

actively headed into the season trying to lose. John Gruden did. Traded Khalil Mack, one of the best players defensively of the last 20, 30 years. Then mid-season traded Amari Cooper, cut Bruce Ervin, was just getting rid of players left and right. They were two and ten heading into December. They went two of their last four games.

They finished four in ten and they ended up the fourth pick overall. That had huge ramifications on their draft pick because it was kind of a three-player draft. once Kyler Murray went in the two-topped defensive linemen, and then there was a huge drop-off. And they ended up, quote-unquote, over-drafting a player. Can you imagine that if they just would have tanked properly,

they would have picked second, they would have picked Nick Bosa. But they don't tank. Why? Because no one in the NFL tanks. Players don't tank. Coaches don't tank. It's just not a tanking league, even when you're the Raiders, and you actively kind of tanked through your personnel moves,

but they still tried to win. And then they did. They won two. of their last four games. So the lottery, it's just not necessary. The drama of the season, unlike the NBA, which regular season has been borderline rendered irrelevant. I mean, I watch a ton of NBA games.

It's terrible. The product during the regular season has never been worse. The playoffs look like a completely different sport. It's a great part about the NFL. Are the playoffs more intense? Yeah, because it's kind of a one-and-done sport. But it doesn't look that much. different than the regular season.

You watch a good regular season game. It looks like a playoff game. And we get countless number of those throughout the regular season. That's not the case in the NBA. So while the lottery, in theory, and it was fun to talk about, like, let's do a lottery for the NFL. It really isn't necessary because the biggest reason the NBA, especially why they change the lottery to make it even more fun, is to disincentivized teams to tanking. Like, if you tank, you're not going to be rewarded. But the thing about the NFL is teams just don't tank.

The Raiders who literally attempted to tank through personnel still try during the regular season. I still can't. It was crazy re-looking at this that they won two of their last four games. Think how insane that is. This team that was going to, I mean, I don't know, pick, they would have ended up picking number one probably if they just finished, they would have picked one, if they would have finished two and 14, screwed themselves. and Cleland Farrell, there's a big drop-off between Nick Boas and Cleland-Farrell. But I do give them some credit that that's not how people are wired. Like Derek's not trying to lose the games.

Gru's not trying to lose the games. Coaches don't try to lose in the NFL. People don't try to lose. GMs don't try to. No one tries to lose. So while the lottery is fun to talk about, it's just never going to be necessary. And it's never going to happen. But I'm not arguing that it wouldn't be an incredible television show and do a mess.

massive television rating. So let's now dive in, my good buddy, the director of personnel, basically the GM of Oklahoma football. Work side by side with Lincoln Riley. We'll talk about a bunch of stuff. Here we go. Well, I got a big, big guest today. An absolute, this guy hired me, got my start into football.

We're still good friends this day. He's gone on to bigger and better things, left me in the dust. Drew Hill, the director of player personnel for the University of Oklahoma. What's going on, man? How you doing, buddy? I'm doing great. How are you doing? I'm doing great, man.

Doing great. Just here in Oklahoma, got the coaches out on the road, spring recruiting, so I got a little time to talk to you. I think people are fascinated. Obviously, the NFL right now gets a little lax because just OTAs is pretty chill. for you guys this time of the year, while no more practice, you guys are pretty active on the road right now. All coaches all over the country are all over the place right now, right? Not just for next year, but locking up, talking to or recruiting sophomores and juniors.

Exactly right. You know, it's quiet around the office, but it's not quiet on the phones. You know what I mean? So those guys are out, you know, flying, driving, beating the bushes, trying to find, anyone and everyone that can play at Oklahoma. And, you know, with us being situated in the middle of the, you know, United States, it's pretty good, you know, West Coast, East Coast to get here.

And so they're out there trying to, you know, bang the bushes. How much time do you guys spend, how many commits do you guys have right now for the fall? Pretty decent amount? Yeah, we got, we got. And, you know, how it is in college football, guys commit, de-commit. So we're in a good spot right now and still kind of going on that in that upward trend, getting hot like we need to be. Is it a priority to meet with those guys instead of talking and then just the juniors and sophomores as they come? But is the number one priority to meet when your coaches go on the road with the guys they're committed for this fall class?

Yeah, I would say so, yeah. I mean, you don't want to lose anyone, but you also got to, you know, use your time wisely because you only get so many days to go out and recruit. And, you know, you've got to get from the west coast to the east coast and obviously down to Texas and Oklahoma and see all the guys that you still got that you're trying to get. I know that Lincoln, how long has the rule been

that the head coach can't go on the road in the spring? about 10 plus years now? I don't think it's been, yeah, it might be 10. Yeah, 8 to 10 years, something like that. You've been in college football for years now. Is that a good or a bad thing, you think? Like, why did they even do that? You know, I tend to go both ways on it at times,

but now with the early signing period, and it gives, you know, head coaches, you know, December and January, when we're out, they're basically spring recruiting at that point. Yeah. Because most of your guys have already signed at the early signing period. So I don't think it's a huge deal. I mean, especially with the early signing period,

really helped that situation out a little bit. Gotcha. So the early signing period, Lincoln during December and then after you guys' bowl game, can just go on the road to the commits you have for the following year. That's where he does his time if the guys are already locked on board. Yeah, he's basically out seeing younger guys and any of the other guys that we're still trying to close at that point. Gotcha. I get so many people DM and me, and I'm sure you do too, people asking for jobs, and people are fascinated.

Just how do you get into the NFL? And now you've been a part of this. This is a kind of explosion of, you know, the scouting world in college football at programs like the one you're at right now. You know, we work together at Fresno, but you had been there for a while and you'd worked in the NFL. Just give a little bit of your story, kind of how you got involved in football and were your career past taking you to this day? Sure, sure. You know, I started out my freshman year of high school and all the way through my high school career with the Atlanta Falcons every summer, working training camp in the college scouting department and pro personnel department. And every summer I was up there, 9th grade, 10th grade, 11th, 3rd, 12th grade, and then had the opportunity to play junior college baseball there in Atlanta.

And every summer I work for the Falcons again. at Dern training camp. And at that point, my boss, Danny Malk had left and gone to the Green Bay Packers, and Reed Johnson and Ronnie Hill came in and kind of hired me as a year-round, basically a year-round intern. And so I did all the grunt work there for three years and still had some college left to do. So they set me up at Southern Miss, and I went and worked at Southern Miss and finished my two years with the hope to go back to Atlanta.

and things didn't work out with the new ownership. And so I went to school for another semester at Southern Miss and then got the job with Pat Hill out at Fresno State. Go dogs, baby. Stayed with Pat out there for eight years and went to Colorado State with Coach McElwain for two and then over here to Oklahoma with Coach Stoops and now Coach Riley. So you've been at Oklahoma now,

you going into your fifth year? This will be, I've been here five years, so this will be my sixth. And I know when I was with you, you were basically in charge of, you know, everything from recruiting, breaking, you know, who we should sign and scouting to what food we were going to eat on the road. How much, you know, it was doing a lot, you know, underpaid overworked. How much is the job kind of change for you? Like when Bob Stoops hired you, because. Once you went with Mac, it became a little more like you're doing now, right,

a little more Alabama, more focused on football, and then how much has it changed? Like when you got to Bob, was it a little more like Fresno and it's changed with Lincoln? Like, what's that been like? Yeah, so, yeah, obviously at Fresno State, you know, we were doing everything. You know, we were answering the phones. You're getting food scheduled. You're getting buses. You're getting airplanes.

You're doing all that stuff. And then you're sending the coaches out. So, but yeah, when I got the Colorado State with Coach Mack, it was, you know, he brought a lot of that stuff from Alabama. And then, you know, the move to here, you know, with Bob, it was a lot like it was at Colorado State. You know, I'm still organizing stuff. And then, you know, Lincoln comes on and he takes it to the next level and is able to, you know, bring in some other great pieces that allow me, you know, to watch film and evaluate, and manage the 85 scholarships and the walk-ons.

And so I've been able to, you know, hire a guy from Fresno that I watched, you know, grow up from a kid to where we played against him when we played UCLA. And I was able to bring him in, and he's kind of, you know, my right-hand guy. I let him take care of the defense when we break up, and I go with the offense, and then we all come back together and share thought. and he helps me break up the film, and so we rock and roll it. When was the first time, because you were with Lincoln when he was in a sit, he was the offensive coordinator, did you know pretty early on?

Like, you've been around Jim McElwain, you've been around a lot of guys that took off at Fresno State over the years, you know, to bigger and better positions. Did you know this guy's, this guy's pretty special? Yeah, oh, yeah. I mean, right out of the gate, man. It's just a, I don't even know how to explain it. He's just, the guys immediately respect the guy. He's highly organized, just like Mac, and he just got this aura about him.

Like, this guy's going to be something big one day. And I had no idea it was going to be here. But I sure him glad it was because it's been really, really good, you know, not just for the family, but for my growth as well. I assumed that, you know, just whenever you're, you're, younger guy. You know, you're just kind of loosey-goosey, but last year I had him on this same show. I mean, he's a pretty intense dude. You know, you don't want his age fool yet. Like, he's not just going through the motions. He was kind of intimidating to talk to you. Like, I had to feel

like, God, I got to be on the ball. No, he's a smart dude, very smart, which is great because, you know, I'm all over the place. But yeah, now, he's an intense guy. I know how me and you were on the sideline at Fresno State when we scored touchdowns and stuff. I mean, he would have been right there with us. Yeah. He'd have been a baby. He'd have been a baby, but he would have been right there with us. Well, you guys, I mean, Drewski, you've had a pretty good run here at quarterbacks.

I know you had a guy that he was a rookie last year, was started for you guys for three years. When you first got to Oklahoma, you've told me the story a little bit before, and I think most people now, because a guy is so famous, I've heard Baker's story, the walk-on situation. He left Texas Tech. but how did you first hear his name? He didn't necessarily just come to Oklahoma. Did Bob Stoops know he was come to Oklahoma? How did it all kind of play out? He wasn't a scholarship guy right off the bat.

Tell me the story a little bit. The first time you met Baker, Bob's the first time he met Baker and how he had to earn a scholarship. Yeah, you know, he got here the fall before I arrived. So I arrived, or the spring. I'm sorry, he got here in the spring, and I got here in July. And, you know, I had heard and seen Baker play, and, you know, it took a while for me to, you know, get to know the guy a little bit just because he didn't know me.

I didn't know him, and I'm trying to meet the whole team and get a feel. But just a different dude. I mean, you know, very, very personable, very likable guy. And the guy wasn't even, he wasn't on scholarship. We're going through August camp. I'm like, holy smoke. So did he practice? He's going to sit out.

Did he practice with the team that spring when he came to the school? I don't know that. I wasn't here. I think he did. Gotcha. And then we went to camp and we're kind of going through the season a little bit. And Bob's like, if we got a scholarship open, let's just put him on now. And I'm like, yeah, we got a scholarship open.

So we went ahead and put him on. And I kind of didn't know that the guy wasn't on scholarship at that point, which, you know, You go out there and watch him sling the rock around. You're like, holy smokes. When's this guy going to be sitting out of year? Because you had Trevor and I was a quarterback, right, that year? Trevor, yeah. So Baker was just running the scout team?

Baker was running the scout team. And, you know, just going up and down the field and doing it with intensity. Like it was a real game, you know. It was unbelievable to watch. and so, you know, there was a battle the next year between him and Trevor, and he ended up nudging him out, and the rest is history.

I mean, he just kept getting better and better every year. I remember last year Lincoln told me, because I asked him, when was the first time you knew you kind of had something special? And he said that it was, I remember watching this game on my couch, that game against Tennessee, where you guys, you know, kind of played like shit,

we're down on the road, and then, I mean, this comeback, and him just leading the charge, you know, in front of, you know, I don't know how many people, you know, 100,000 people there? Yeah, it was one of the louder games I've been to. And it was like, oh, my, this guy's pretty good. And that would have been his, like, third game ever starting.

He ends up going a couple years later, number one overall. You've run around a lot of first-round draft picks. You've been around Derek Carr. When was the first time, like, when you were around him when you went, this guy's going to be a legit NFL player. Not just, obviously, you knew he was a good college player. That first year you guys were really good. I think you went to the playoffs.

But, like, you're like, this guy is a legitimate first-round draft pick. It would probably have been his junior year, you know, kind of later in the season, seeing him do what he was doing. You know, I remember distinctly being at Baylor the year they were really good. And we had to go to Baylor in the rain and beat him. And just bake was just different, you know. And then that junior year, he just kept getting better. I'm like, this guy. is the first-round draft pick.

I don't care how tall he is. I'll stand on the table for the dude. I mean, he just got that kind of leadership, and people just, you kind of flock to a guy like that, and you want to fight for him. And hell, I wanted to fight for him when I was talking to the scouts. And it pissed me off when guys were talking about his height, and I don't care how big he is.

Just listen to me. He's going to be a player. But by a senior year, it felt like most of those scouts agreed with you right like it was pretty clear yeah i mean everybody that came in was like wow wow i mean they were impressed with how much that he had improved from year from year one of him starting to his senior year just totally baffled you've lived it i mean we hear so much about it i know dorsey loved it like the moxie what he was like with his teammates i mean can you describe anything obviously you've seen

I know you love him. You know, he's close with your family. Like, what's he like? Like, what makes him so special? Like, why is he such a good teammate? He's got unbelievable leadership skills. I mean, and like I said, he's such a likable guy and a warrior. I mean, you want to go lay it on line.

Hell, I want to go lay it on the line with him whenever I'm just standing on the sidelines. Like, I'm ready to go. But, you know, and then after the game, I'm looking for my daughter. the game and I'm like, where is she? And she's on Baker's shoulders, you know, walking to the locker room. I mean, it's just that kind of guy. I mean, he cares about people. And he can get people motivated to follow him and lay it all out on the line.

What's crazy is he goes number one overall. And everyone's like, yeah, you know, Oklahoma's got this other guy. Then Billy Bean drafts number, you know, number nine overall. It's like, they'll still be pretty good. I remember watching some YouTube film of the spring game, or maybe it was just some garbage time that he played in Baker's senior years. Like, God, this guy's got a good arm and can kind of run around. And then by about the end of September, you're like, oh, my, this guy's a freak.

Did you guys, was Kyler, because he was playing baseball? Had you played with him in spring, like, did he get to go through spring workouts? Did he play in the spring game? And when did you know with him? Like, oh, my God, we got something here again. Yeah. You know, with him, it was different just because with Baker, you got to see the progression from year one starting to year two to year three. With him, it's kind of like just slammed right in your face, like, bam, here we go.

And, you know, with him doing both baseball and football at Oklahoma, I mean, we had to work closely with compliance and with the baseball staff to work out his 20 hours a week. That's a good point. You know, doing spring ball, and then we're having to move up spring ball to, you know, eight o'clock in the morning so that he can go get on a plane and fly to, you know, Waco or Lubbock or wherever they're playing at that week. And I can remember distinctly walking into the players' lounge, you know, mid-morning, and the guy's just laying, he's not even on the couch. He's laying on the carpet, you know, just out cold, just exhausted.

You know, I mean, it just takes so much to play one sport in college, and much less to play two and be elite at both of them is incredible. So, yeah, he's, so, you know, we didn't know he was going to obviously be a one-and-done first pick in the draft in August camp, but you could tell that moving forward into the season that he was something just, you know, Charlie Wardish. I mean, something you'd never seen before, or if you had seen it before, it had been a long, long time, you know, between Charlie Ward and this guy.

Yeah. But, you know, you just watch him kind of joystick around defenders and the guy throws the ball so well. He throws the ball so much better than you would think, you know, just seeing him in person. and seeing him, you know, 5, 10, 511, whatever he is. I mean, he don't throw it like that size guy. He throws it like a big 6-3 guy.

I mean, you don't see a whole bunch of batted balls. And I think, you know, moving through the season and not seeing those batted balls, you're like, okay, this guy can do this. When did you start kind of feeling? Are you the pro liaison at Oklahoma? Like, do the scouts go through you? Yes. And you've been doing that your whole career.

When did you start getting a field? You know all these guys. really well, the directors, the head guys, the God, this guy is not just a first round pick, he's going to go really high. You know, I think it was probably, you know, mid to late season. I know I saw it, and I told the scouts this for the first time when we played Texas, and we were down. And, you know, it got to the point where we were down a good bit,

and the guy just put the whole team on his shoulders and brought us. you know, all the way back in that game. It was crazy. To a three-point game where, you know, only him and Baker could do something like that. And I was like, this dude. And then to see him after the game, he's just, you know, the guy hadn't lost many games ever in his entire life. And to see him just so distraught after one loss. And I just remember talking to the scouts.

I'm like, I've never seen anything like it before. I mean, he basically just, you know, put on a Superman cape. and brought us all the way back to three points, and we just ran out of time, basically. I know you're tied with his family. You know him really well. Did you know by the end of the season that he was all in on football? Because I don't think us on the outside really found out

maybe right before the Combine, right, when he announced and he tweeted that statement out. I mean, because clearly you get drafted that high-end baseball and the A's loved him, you know? I mean, did you think it was a hard decision for them? Was it something that football, How did that process play out for you guys inside the building? I had a good inclination that it was going to be football,

but nothing verbally from him or the parents. They were just going to see how it played out the rest of the season. But, you know, I had been talking to the scouts about him just because, you know, there was that chance at the end of the season, you know, with baseball. You never know what was going to happen. so then when he when he announced and I mean by the time he had announced you mean I mean he had played the season you knew he was going to be a first round pick I mean he's just

those guys like him that with the speed and the arm strength don't come around that often or maybe ever before yeah because I mean I was around Vic and he did he was a little bigger in Kyler but he was not an accurate passer you know like Kyler that was a my last, that was my last draft with the Falcons, the Mike Vic draft. How many passes do you think he averaged in college? 20 a game? I mean, total attempts. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't like

he wasn't in the same style of offense, so yeah, it would have been less than Kyler. But yeah, I mean, those guys, I mean, Vic had a big arm, he could rip it. I mean, he could fly a little bit bigger, a little thicker, but, yeah,

I mean, they're similar. Were you at Oklahoma when Kyler was coming out of high school? I was, yeah. We recruited Kyler my first year here and didn't win out on him. But I'm glad we won out on him the second time.

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Open your free, our heart radio app. Search learning a hard way and listen now. Kyler, so now in your four years being at Oklahoma, was he one of the better high school recruits you've seen? Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, you had the same questions that all the pro scouts are going to have. You know what I mean? He's, you know, 5-10, whatever, but who cares?

And I can remember Link being, you know, when he was transferring, he was like, this guy's potential Heisman trophy guy. I mean, Link said that. Yeah. And I'll be dang. Who'd you have to beat out when he was leaving A&M? Was it pretty easy, or was that then a re-recruitment that was tough? I think, you know, it was – I think he wanted to be here.

I think this is where he wanted to be. And that says a lot about him coming in. I mean, that was what makes junior year, and then he was going to have to sit behind him through his senior year, and, you know, he could have gone anywhere and started. you know, that second season after he sat. But he came here, you know, redshirted, ran the scout team, and then backed up Baker for a year and then came out and bawled out and went number one.

All right. It shows you you never know. And then this year, you get a quarterback that, you know, I think, for me, when I watched Jalen Hertz, you know, I've never been, I've kind of been on the fence on him as a player. And then I've seen some videos since he's got to Oklahoma. where it feels like he's already the team leader and it's like, this guy's a badass.

You know, I mean, have you ever quite experienced anything? It feels like he's got a little baker to him. Like he just shows up, owns the room, and people just follow him. He's got great leadership skills.

And just wait until you see the guy in person. I mean, he is, he looks like Rodney Anderson. I mean, the running back from last year. He's a big, thick dude.

And, you know, guy speaks, and people listen. and he's a very intelligent kid. And, you know, he's still come along. He just, you know, he went through spring, but he's still trying to learn the offense and get going.

But he's with the right guy. I mean, quarterback whisper. Well, if Jaylen Hertz goes number one overall, you know, Lincoln might as well just retire, you know. Just call it a career. When you recruited Jaylin, did you guys go in on Jalen after? Did you know going in to like by the end of the season that Kyler, like there was no chance of him coming back and playing again? Was that on the table before you knew that, because he technically could have played baseball right and still played another year of football?

Let's say if like the NFL scouts said, yeah, you'll only be a second or third round pick. Was that something that you guys didn't know about or were you got to go after Jalen regardless? There was still, you know, during the season, it was still on the table. I think, you know, with Kyler, he's really, really, really good at baseball. And he's, he, his, but his passion is football. Yeah. And we all know how good he is at football. But, and I don't know, I can't say that, but I know he's always been passionate about football.

And so there was a chance, you know, there was nothing written in stone that he was just going to straight go to baseball. But, you know, after the season and the season he had, it's like, whoa, this guy's going to make a lot more than whatever he made playing baseball, playing football. Well, I know this. when him and Baker ever come back, lunch is on them when you're out with them because I just saw Kyler, Kyler just signed for $32 million. I can take him.

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Hollywood Brown goes in the first round, and that was with you a bad foot. I mean, who knows if he had been 100% healthy, you might not have made it out of the top 15. Just the recruitment process of him, you had just lost D.D. Westbrook. You needed that speed guy in this offense. He was a junior college player, right? Talk him to a little bit of that situation. And, you know, his weight, he wasn't exactly the biggest guy

why I kind of made it a unique recruitment. Yeah, yeah, you know, under-recruited, obviously out of high school, probably just with the size and... What would you guess he was coming out of high school, about 130? I mean, he was probably around 140, 145, somewhere around in there. and, you know, went out to junior college in California, and, you know, we found him out there and kind of later in the process a little bit.

And we went all in on him, even with the, you know, I mean, he was probably 145 to 150 when he was out there at junior college, and we went all in just because the speed was unreal. And then you get him on campus, and you get to meet the person. and he is just a phenomenal individual, soft-spoken kid, but very, very likable person. And, man, I love Marquise.

And it just, it worked out for him. He came down here, and I remember Coach Simmons saying, you know, we were trying to bring him all a little bit slower than we brought D.D. We felt like we threw D.D.E. in there a little too early. So they're trying to bring him all a little slower. And he's standing behind Dennis, and somebody went down against Texas,

and he's got his mouth. mouthpiece in ready to go. He said, all right, here we go. And it was all over after that. I mean, he just ran past everybody. He can, he can fly. He can fly. When you get a guy, because, like, you guys are watching him on film, two things I'm interested in. One, when you say he comes on late in the process, does like a coach call you guys? Were you in, you know, were you in there just banging away the tape and you just notice them? Like, how does that even come on the radar? And then once you bring him out and you go, hey, coach, Stoops or Lincoln, this is Marquise, and he's 140 pounds. Like, I would imagine you guys aren't recruiting many guys that weigh under 180, right? So, I mean, was that a concern?

And even you that love the guy, you know, like, that's usually guys like that don't make it. They're just so small. Yeah. I mean, Lincoln is not so hung up with, you know, heights and weights as much because, you know, the offense, he can move them around and get them in the right spot. But, and we've had success with some smaller guys. Because Dede's not that big, is he? No, I mean, no, Dede's, you know, six foot.

And Shep was, you know, 5-11, you know, Marquise. We've had a lot of success with some smaller guys. And, you know, Lincoln's so creative that he's like, I don't care how much he weighs or how big he is. He can fly. Let's go get him. And so we went out and battled and, and got him over here.

And he did a great job, man. Unbelievable. And he also had some pretty good cats throwing to him. God, I mean, it's a pretty good get when you get a junior college guy, you know, who's not really on anyone's radar, and then the guy becomes a first-round pick. You know, it shows you that... No doubt.

I asked you this on the phone when we were talking the other day. 40-yard dash, you put the two of them standing right there, and you got to pick one, Hollywood or Kyler. Who would you pick? Oh, my goodness. Because we've got to play this game because neither of them, Kyler never ran a 40, and obviously Hollywood was hurt. He wasn't able to, so no one will ever know.

We just know that they're fast. I know. When you're that fast, it doesn't matter. Marquise always had that foot deal, you know, for some of his career here. So we didn't want to, we already knew he was. We didn't need to know exactly how fast he was. He was fast enough to go past people that we played. So we didn't want to, you know, aggravate that foot anymore.

in the off season running 40s. But, and Kyler, the same thing. You know, he's playing baseball, so he didn't run 40s here. I mean, I don't know. You think both guys are high 4-3 guys? I mean, you've seen a lot of fast guys over the years. Yes. They're legit fast.

If they're not 4-3, they're right there at it. Yeah, 4-4-0. How about his other running mate? I don't know if he's that fast, but he makes plays. CD Lamb, 111 catches, and 18 touch-st. touchdowns in his two years playing. You know, he's a beast. I mean, every time I watch you guys, it's not just making catches.

It's just the one-handers. It's the contested catches. Just a freak show. And you see this draft, that guy from Arizona State that's just a contested catched guy, Nikiel Harry, that I loved. This guy's better. You know, and you've been around, you compare them to a guy you were around at Fresno State. And it's still one of the biggest crimes in draft history that Devante went in the second round.

you know, late in the second round too. How good is this guy and, you know, is he kind of the guy now for you guys this season? He is the guy. And he may not have all the flash and all the stuff that Marquise had, but this dude is one of the better ones that I've ever been around in my life. And again, I'm going to stand on the table for the guy. I don't know that he'll come out this year, but he's going to have the opportunity to. And again, like I told you, I like to compare him with guys I've been around before.

And, you know, we had Devante Adams at Fresno. And, you know, Devante didn't run 4-4-0. But, you know, he was elite. You knew it his freshman year when he was running scout team. And this guy from day one that he stepped on campus has been elite. as a freshman, as a sophomore, and next year as a junior. And he catches, I'm looking at a picture on my wall right now with me in the background, and he's just as fully extended one-handed catch in a ball in the air.

I think it was UCLA game. And he's tough, he blocks. He's going to be, you know, he runs fast enough for that league, but he's big and he's developed his body. I mean, he's strong. He looks great right now. He's going to have a great, great season. I mean, not many guys as a true freshman. I would imagine your time in Oklahoma.

I mean, was D.D. still on the team? Marquis, like, come on the scene and play right away and play well. I think he had, what, like eight touchdowns as a true freshman? Yeah, he was a true freshman. So when did you know with him, like, early on in training camp? Like, oh, my, this guy, get him away from the freshman. Take him with the big boys. Like, did that transition go pretty quick?

I honestly knew on him. off a high school film. He was that good. He was that good. And his recruitment, you know, after we offered, he committed and then he decommitted because he wanted to go around and see some other places because he hadn't been able to go see a bunch of stuff yet. Did that make you nervous?

It did, yeah, but the contact was still there. He still, you know, had a great relationship with us. And he did exactly what he said he was going to do. He went and took some visit. and then knew this is where he wanted to be, so he recommitted to us, and it was the best thing. We all slept better after knowing that. Who was your biggest competition with him?

Probably LSU. I think that's one of the trips he went on. Probably them, yeah. At Fresno State, we were like shedding off Arizona State and Nevada's and Oklahoma's a different ball game. You guys are going against LSU, Georgia, Notre Dame, Ohio State. Yeah, I know, I know.

You get the call, hey, coach, you know, I'm just going to check out some other places. Where are you going? You know, I'm going to check out Alabama and Georgia. You're like, oh, my God. It's a little different ball game. Would you say you recruit most of the guys? Like, who would you call your biggest recruiting rival? Or is there even one?

I mean, it's, you know, the guys around here, Texas, A&M. And then, you know, because we get out of, of. of our little area here in the Midwest, and, you know, anytime you go down south, you're going to run into recruiting battles. So we've run into a couple down there in the south. But really, it's just, you know, for the most part, it's around here, Texas, Texas A&M, those guys.

Well, I remember when we were at Fresno, Bob used to come into California and get a guy or two. I remember you got Kenny Stills. You guys, someone told me that you just had to commit a coach on the road, a kid in California, I think, in the valley. Like you guys still recruit California still to this day? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we've got Caleb Kelly on the roster from Fresno.

So I love going in there and getting guests. Yeah, don't sleep on the valley. Produce some dudes. That's right. So, I mean, what's Drew Hill's schedule like, you know, for this? How many more weeks are these guys on the road? This week, and then, you know, they all got a certain amount of days on the road with that 168 total. So, you know, next week they'll have like two or three days left apiece.

So we'll be winding down next week. So when these guys go out have basically you and Lincoln gone over, the guys you want to hit, the schools you want to go through with that individual coach? Is it like a team effort or are they just giving a schedule and then they kind of come back? Like, how does the process work to pick and where exactly these guys are going to go? We meet on it before they leave and figure out everyone's, schedule individually and then sit down as a staff and they tell everyone where they're going. And then we actually come back every week, whether it be Friday or Saturday.

Because we're usually in here on Saturday anyway because unofficial visits, you know how, you know, people are going to be here. So usually Saturday, we'll sit down and go over what they saw and then we'll break up offense and defense and they'll go watch all the film. and we'll also go over what they're going to do in the next week. You know, the term, you know, like when we were at Fresno, like a diamond in the rough, was probably a little different than for you guys, because the moment you find a guy that maybe other people's aren't on that you like

and you offer, that becomes a national story, right? Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. But there's still that part of me that still wants to find that guy. You know, I want to go find that guy, that diamond in the road. that maybe he's recruited by smaller schools instead of the big boys and you guys like them. Yeah. But how do you balance once you offer them, once the guy gets an offer from Lincoln Riley and Oklahoma, then other teams start recruiting them, right?

Usually. Does that change? Yeah. No, yeah, I mean, you just got to trust in what you do and trust that, you know, moving forward that you're going to do everything you can to get that person. Well, Jalen Hertz, quarterback this year. I know you guys, I was watching a little YouTube cut up, this kid from Arizona, Spencer Rattler, that is going to be there in the fall.

And you were telling me, you already got a guy on campus that was a five-star kid from Texas. I mean, are you guys quarterback you right now? I mean, just quarterback after quarterback after quarterback. I mean, I would think this is quarterback you right now. Quarterback you, O-line you, running back you, let's go. I know back in the day, like one thing we had at Fresno is ran a pro-style offense. big, you got guys drafted, you know, it was good for guys. Clearly, that does not, you know, I'd throw that out the window now.

I mean, you guys just proved it, back-to-back number one overall picks, and that were short. So, I mean, how much easier does that make it now that Lincoln's known as his quarterback whisperer? You guys are going number one in the draft. If you were a high school quarterback, why would you not want to come play for you guys? I agree, 100%. I mean. You want me to be on the recruiting pitches?

Because I'll get in on them. You guys feed me? Yeah. Come on, baby. Let's go. You're only going to make us better. They got some good food around there, good cafeteria. Oh, yeah, I know you like to eat.

I like to eat, and I like my free swag from the equipment guy. I would imagine they're a little more liberal about giving out free clothes at Oklahoma than they were at Fresno. I struggled to get a pair of sweats, remember? We had the same pool over every game. It didn't matter if it was 30 below or 87. I think people don't know this story that are listening. I mean, me and you know, it's still people that we know talk about it still, that the equipment guy and me did not get off on the right foot.

He hated me. And then one time his machine that he watched all the clothes in, my school ID was in my pocket, and he washed my shorts, and the ID got into like the wherever and broke the entire machine, and they didn't know what was up until they opened up the machine, and it was just a picture of me on the ID, ruining the tube.

I don't think I ever got anything else with that. That's not mine. I denied it. I said, I don't know. That's not me. What do we say? They had to fly somebody in from overseas to come fix the thing? I mean, Fresno didn't have any, they barely had any money,

and they had to be like 50 grand to fly some dude to 50. Classic. You guys, now you're with Jordan Brand. You probably got so much swag. You don't even know what to do with. All right, buddy. Good to talk to you. Boomer sooner.

Boomer, baby. Well, I hope everyone enjoyed that. You don't get to hear a director of college personnel, you know, at a top five program that's producing top NFL players. It's just a pretty unique interview. I don't know if you're finding that anywhere else, but three and out podcast. Thanks for listening.

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