The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Nerd Sesh - NBA Finals Game 4 Reaction: Doncic & Mavericks DESTROY Tatum & Celtics

Episode Date: June 15, 2024

The nerds react to Game 4 of the NBA Finals, as Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown and the Boston Celtics attempt to sweep Luka Doncic, Kyrie Irving and the Dallas Mavericks to win their 18th NBA title. Timestamps 00:00:23 - Dallas’ defense and interior supremacy 00:12:16 - Luka’s offensive dominance 00:24:40 - Dallas’ elite play from role players 00:31:54 - Where did Boston fall short? 00:37:14 - The Tatum vs. Brown debate 00:38:57 - What can Boston do differently in Game 5? 00:43:19 - Does this game threaten Boston’s status as an all-time team? #Volume #herdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The volume. Oh my God, how could he do that? Are you? Charles Darwin. The nerves is where it's at. Welcome everybody back into nerdsets. As always, I'm Carson Forever. And alongside me is Logan Kandon and the Dallas Maverick slogan,

are not done just yet. We know the historical precedent. Nobody ever in any playoff series in NBA history has come back from down 3-0. But the Mavs respond with, who knows what this game will end up at? We're recording before it's even over. Maybe a 40-point win over the Boston Celtics. What to you was the biggest difference in the biggest key to them just absolutely dominating this one with their backs against the wall?

We got to give a ton of credit to Luca Donchich and what he did offensively out of the gates in this game. but we'll get to that in a minute. I think the biggest key to Dallas dominating this game was their defense for one, and then how they just completely dominated the interior in basically every facet of this game. The Celtics are held to a season low 35 points in the first half. In that first half, they have an offensive rating of 77.8. And overall in this game, they have an offensive rating of 84.5. Dallas forced a lot of turnovers.

Boston racks of 13 turnovers in meaningful basketball time. They hold them to 10 of 30 from behind the arc. Nobody has a good game offensively for Boston. All of their stars, all of these elite guys held below 15 points. I don't know why I'm using quotations. They are stars. Quote. Yeah, I know.

One chance to get back on that Boston hatred and he hopped right on. I'm not going to lie, bro. I hate Boston so much. This was not nice. I like seeing a I like seeing competitive basketball games I actually did not enjoy watching this and this is not competitive at all.

We got Svema Kai Luke minutes. And we got the most waiting for. We got the most racist Boston Celtics lineup of all time man that felt like I hate crime at the end of this game. That's whatever they do. Whenever they are just absolutely beating the shit out of you, they throw four white dudes on the floor.

Isn't that demoralizing? It's not good. Yeah, I'm not comfortable with it. it. I say stars. They didn't perform like stars in today's basketball game. And you know what? I'll push back a little bit against Boston. They've thrown on me in these finals, but they put up a stinker, a clunker in this one. And a lot of that has to do with the step up in defense that we saw from Dallas. I thought a bunch of numbers at you. Luca plays so much better there. It's so much more engaged, like just trying. So much defense is just effort. And we get that from

Luca and this one. But you got to give credit to the interior. And the star of the show. show to me in this one was Derek lively, man, blocking shots, working his ass off on the glass, running in transition. He dominated this one, dude. And Dallas fought for every board. Again, these are numbers for meaningful time, not with the bench and mob out there. Dallas wins the rebounding battle 49 to 25. That's plus 24. They win the offensive rebounding battle 12 to 2. That's plus 10. And in terms of points in the paint, Carson, Dallas wins the battle 56 to 8, 10. I mean, that's disgusting work. That's the key to me, man.

And it shows us a really frightening floor that the Boston Celtics have without Christop's Forzingis. Like, that was a big key to me that Dallas, you know, they really shined in the paint. They didn't have a great game last game, mostly because of Luca Doncherton's second half and what he did defensively. But they were able to do work inside. And I'm glad Dallas focused on that, man.

It seemed like there was a, you know, concerted effort. to get downhill, to get shots in the paint. They opened up this game with like, I think 16 straight points in the paint. It was something absurd like that. But I'm glad that Dallas honed in on the inside. To me, it was a key area where they could win without Christoph's forcing. And they did that, man, getting downhill consistently, getting easy looks inside, dominating the glass, making sure Boston couldn't get a ton inside there.

And that's what worked, man. A lot better defensively, a lot better working on the inside. And shout out to what Luca and Kyrie did offensive. but I thought this game was powered by how Dallas was able to dominate the interior and on defense. Agreed. It was really a perfect game all around for Dallas. You could not have played any better than they did. But it did start on the defensive end. And you give props to lively. I thought lively was amazing in this game. And I thought that he was definitely good defensively on the interior. To me, though, his most pronounced impact was what he did on the offensive glass. So sort of high effort plays. He and Gafford were good defensively.

on the interior, but while they have been like the backbone, the strong point of this Dallas defense for so much of these playoffs, I didn't really feel like that was the case in this one. I thought they did their job well, but to me, well, the biggest thing was the defense at the point of attack, the physicality that these wings were applying, the pressure that they were applying, and just plugging all the holes to where they were not allowing that dribble penetration that they have been conceding over and over again through the first three games. and the single biggest change there, although it was a collective improvement,

is Luca Donchich, Logan. He did a complete 180 defensively. After playing two abominable games defensively, the two worst defensive games that he's played in these playoffs in games two and three, he played one of, if not the best defensive games that he has all postseason in this one. Consistently, we saw much improved effort from him

in terms of isolation defense, regardless of the matchup with Jason Tad and with Jalen Brown, playing physically, moving his feet really well, cutting off angles, just cutting off those drives, forcing turnovers. I mean, Drew Holiday, he forced to lose the handle on multiple occasions. And that's kind of been the focus from the mainstream media, so to say. It's obviously been a huge problem, him allowing these blowbys and consistently allowing dribble penetration when he's on the ball.

But the single most frustrating thing to me about game three was the combination of that with his complete obliviousness and distinterest as a team defender, just leaving Sam Houser in the corner for no reason on the strong side, not competing whatsoever on the glass for defensive rebounds. Multiple times, completely losing Jalen Brown off ball and just allowing these super easy cuts. Like, you have to be engaged. If you can't stay in front of Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown because they're more athletic than you, that's one thing.

Now, he did show even in this game that he can improve there with better. effort. But the biggest thing was just not caring about how you can help be an important part of this defense that constantly needs everybody engaged and connected. And even with his limitations, like that's what Luca was through the first three rounds. He was an engaged team defender, for the most part, with a couple of games where he was off. And there was an exception to that. And that's what he was again tonight. I thought that he was really, really good on that end. And that was exactly what this team needed. And he very much answered the call. Is it too little too? late, maybe, but he improved his performance dramatically on that end.

And I just thought overall, like, they played their best defensive lineups. We've talked about the lack of offensive production from their role players and how that's been an issue. But the reason that Jason Kidd didn't want to play THJ through the first two games, didn't want to really play Jaden Hardy is because this team's identity around Luke and Kyrie has always been about having a bunch of athletes and a bunch of defenders. That's when they're at their best, when those dudes can play. capably offensively.

And that's what they got in this one. You get zero meaningful Tim Hardaway Jr. or Jaden Hardy minutes. And you're getting awesome defense and effort from Cleba and Josh Green. They are staying in front of these guys on their drives. They're making high effort plays with their hands. So ultimately, they just kind of broke down the Celtics offense. And you got them to the point where it's not just that you're neutralizing their

drive and kick game. You're leading to actively bad possessions where now they aren't even. trying to put that pressure on you. They're just forcing these really tough one-pass catch-and-shoot threes. They're forcing these deep pull-up threes. They're forcing these Drew Holiday isolations. And he had five turnovers in this game. All of the exact sort of shots you do not want if you're the Boston Celtics.

Jalen Brown's decision-making, I thought, was really bad in this game. He got sucked into some really, really bad shots. And so that's exactly what you want to do if you're the defense. You're not just taking away their greatest strength. You're forcing them into their worst tendencies. You are speeding them up. You are forcing them into shots that they normally wouldn't take, that they don't want to take. It's like what we saw Minnesota do against Denver on several occasions in that series.

Once you start getting those like quick, early shot clock, Aaron Gordon catch and shoot threes, that's when you know you're doing things right defensively. And that was sort of the equivalent of what you get from Boston in this game. They were just totally rattled. They looked uncomfortable driving downhill. So it was just a complete transformation. And that has been in so many ways the strength of this Dallas team. How awesome this defense has been.

And they struggled to get stops. And even though Boston's offensive rating maybe wasn't overwhelming through the first three games, the shot quality they created in game two, for example, where it doesn't fall, through the first quarters of game three was consistently awesome. And that was not the case at all tonight. And you have to give a bunch of props to Dallas's defense for that. You do. And I think you hit on a big key there.

Carson. I don't want that to get lost in the shuffle with this. Luca and Kyrie pulled their weight offensively. A lot of the guys are making shots, but that's the recipe to winning for Dallas, dictating and winning defensively. That's what we stress so much is, you know, you went on that end and then everything else will come easy. And they did so much better walling off Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum from getting downhill, containing dribble penetration. I also thought they did a great job at recovering too. there's that one possession where they create a pretty good advantage initially. Yeah, and you get two swing passes to Tatum, top of the key.

Two guys are going to the basketball at the end of that shot clock. Tatum has to kick back out to Warford. It's just there was a different kind of level of engagement from this team that we just didn't get. And I think you hit a key there too, man. We're not asking Luca Donchich to be an all-world defender. We're not asking him to come out there and play a game like Drew Holiday. we're asking him to be a key, important call in the defense, and he can do that. I think, you're right, the media, not that we overblew it in game three, right?

I think Luca got rightfully chastised for his effort and engagement defensively in game three, but I think it got a little overblown where some people were doing this revisionist history sort of deal with the earlier rounds where it's, oh, Luca was so bad and this, and that was just not the case at all. Like, you're right. he had one or two games where you can, you know, be critical of him. But consistently, Luca was a good isolation defender and was pretty engaged. Like, game three was just the one instance where, you know, we saw that game two, he was awful too. It's been this series.

This series, he's been really awful. But I totally agree with you because then people started doing the thing where it's, Luca's been awful defensively all playoffs. He's the worst defender in the league. That's just not true. This was a series in which he had been awful. And this game doesn't change how bad. was over the first three games and the fact that that did cost this team.

But I totally am with you on this sort of retroactive rewriting of history that just isn't fair. Because we get caught up in the moment. And it's just important to remember what this team can look like when everybody is locked in there. Like we got engaged Luca and guess what? When we got engaged Luca, look at what ripple effect that causes with everybody else. You can win convincingly possession to possession on defense.

And they just did it, man. I also want to give a ton of credit to Luca offensively. Lucas 3 was not falling in this game. He goes 0 of 4 in the first half. He goes 0 of 4 in the second half, and he didn't let that stop him. One, he got away from that shot. It wasn't falling and he didn't say, hey, let me take nine more. No, what did he do?

He got to his pump fake more. He looked to fouls, but he also just got downhill at will, man. He got what he wanted in the paint. And that's where I was most satisfied with Dallas's offense. is again, I talk about Christop's not being out there offensively or defensively for Boston. That's a clear advantage that Dallas has. And credit to Jason Kidd in this team, they have been great at capitalizing on advantages consistently when they arise within series, right? Dallas has typically had games where they've been off.

But if you give them a sliver, if you give them something they can attack, Dallas has been pretty good at changing up their game plan and going at it. And I thought they did a phenomenal job. Luca deserves an immense amount of credit of what he just does individually, 25 points in the first half, 10 of 18 shooting. It's like, you just had this feeling where he's going to get what he wants. It doesn't matter who you put on him. He's going to get to his spot.

He's going to knock down a shot. But Kyrie also did a great job of getting downhill. 21, 4 and 6 in this game, 10 of 18. He also struggles from behind the arc. That's where I was way more happier with Dallas's offense and their offensive process. And you just see how it opens everything else up for this offense, creating open, easy looks for shooters.

you know, more diverting more attention to the interior because of what Kyrie and Luca were doing offensively. It's just a smarter game plan. And Carson, frankly, we'll get into, you know, Christops and all that. I don't really buy that Porzinez is going to be available the rest of this series. They said, Missoula comes out and says he's available for this game. I think that's smoke. Yeah.

No, dude. He said he's not quite ready, but available for certain situations. Like, what does that even mean? You're just trying to have the idea and the match. Matt's head that, ooh, he might appear out of a cloud of smoke like he's the undertaker. He's not going to play. Yeah, that we could deploy him at any moment when it's advantageous for us. Guys, I think that is all BS.

I don't think KP has a single chance at coming back in this game. And so on the bright side for Dallas, look, down 3-0, this has never happened in NBA history before. You get the game that you need. The bright side is you have a tangible area to attack a weak point on Boston. And that's the bright side. saying that I think this is a, you know, all we're going to see the first ever come back in NBA finals history,

a first ever comeback from 3-0 and NBA playoffs history. But there is a tangible area that Dallas can attack and win at offensively and defensively. And that's encouraging. I don't really buy for a second that for Sengis is going to come back in this series. No, I definitely do not think that we see him, which sucks because he's playing awesome and I love his game. But that's just the reality here from my perspective.

As a doctor, keep in mind as a medical doctor, that is, what I'm saying. Luca was fantastic in this game. Offensively is always going to be his strength, of course. But we talk about the defensive improvement. It was a masterpiece offensively. And 11 of his 12 field goals came in the paint. You mentioned that the three ball was off, and he just didn't let that affect his dominance. And specifically, it was the relentless hunting of the matchups that he wanted. Like, when he got that Derek White matchup, he was going to bully him all the way to the rim. If he got a potential cross match against Drew Holiday and transition,

went downhill, attacked him. But specifically, it was Sam Houser, who he was just going at over and over. And he can get to his spots effortlessly in a matchup like that. Like, Houser had defended him relatively well in the limited possessions that we saw through the first three games. But when Luca commits to being super physical there, and he can just weaponize that change in pace of his,

he's going to win that matchup a vast majority of the time. And he absolutely did in this one. They just could not keep him from chisling his way into those little floaters. What makes Luca one of the greatest offensive players that we've ever seen, among other things, of course, the pull-up shooting and the playmaking. But that physical imposition and change in pace is so, so special. And Boston's whole defensive game plan has been, we're not sending two to the ball, we're not overhelping.

And that's been the right game plan. But when he's just destroying you one-on-one like that, well, then that's a really good result for the Mavs, and that's just tough for Boston to stomach. And that is one of the results of having KP out. It means playing a Samhouser more. It just means putting more vulnerable pieces on the floor for more minutes. And he was also creating good shots for his teammates,

not at like a ludicrous volume, but he was in complete control offensively, I thought played a phenomenal game there. And you talk about the criticism. Obviously, it was extremely, extremely loud. And it's funny because we obviously do our reactions immediately post game. So we come in here, say our piece. We both ragged on Luca for his defense, reamed him.

And then you see, okay, wow, that's what a lot of people did. You see the windy thing. And then you see it progress over like the next couple days of the media cycle where it's all anybody's talking about. I saw a specific ESPN ticker point that was referring to Lucas defense getting exploited. It had the blow by stat. Like this isn't during a show. This is just, you know, where you see news, like where you see. like where you see the results of a NASCAR race or whatever.

And I was like, this is definitely dominating the news cycle. And deservedly so because of how bad he was. But it was a phenomenal response to that criticism. And I do think some of that criticism went too far. Once you take it beyond the scope of this is where he has let you down in this series, this is where he let you down in this game. You start to get some takes, as we talked about, the revisionist history with his whole defense,

claiming he can't possibly be a top three guy, revisiting the him versus Tatum conversation. There was a take from our big boss man, Colin Coward, who I love and have immense respect for, but then I thought went way too far where he talks about Luca being like a better version of Mello, which I think is just wrong for multiple reasons. I guess I'll get into them.

First of all, Mello being a low efficiency score, being a bad playmaker, whereas Luca is, again, a guy who blends this all-time combination of imposing himself down. downhill with elite shot making, with elite playmaking, which makes him one of like the 10ish best offensive players we've ever seen. That's in a completely different stratosphere from Mello. And then in terms of the defensive stuff, the emotional stuff, I just don't think we can

really put Luca in a hole there and say, okay, this is who you are because he is 25 and it's rare to see dudes at 25 in this spot. And that doesn't mean that it's not disappointing because, again, I went off on this dude after game three because it's super disappointing when you see the most apathetic defensive effort that I can think of from a superstar in the NBA finals. You have to understand the gravity of that moment, not just in game four. You don't get a bunch of flowers that wipes everything away. You got to understand that the entire time. But to me, this did show that he can't learn for moments like this. And we've seen that theme to some extent throughout these playoffs of

Luca having the games where he's disengaged defensively. Game one against L.A. He was getting absolutely torched off those switches against James Harden. Then what happened? He came back in game two, played his best defensive game of that series. Game four against OKC when they let that lead slip away. And Luca was complaining and whining and super mad about the physicality. What happened? He snapped into focus the next game.

He did no complaining. He played an awesome basketball game. This was another one of those moments for him. And listen, it's going to end up being too little too late. But when we think about his arc, what he can grow into as a basketball player, in that context, I do think that it's encouraging because he's an all-time great talent offensively. The ability will never, ever be in question because even defensively, he can play at that fine level where he's not actively hurting you. He just has to care.

He has to try. He has to play with the effort that you need from your best player in the NBA finals. And he did that in this one. So of course, the burden on him has been great. And there's a bunch of Luca fans who I'm sure are super pissed about how people have talked about him over the last couple games. But that is what comes with the expectations that Luca has earned by being one of the most talented basketball players that we've ever seen. The standard for him is higher than it is for Jason Tatum. And Tatum, of course, has done the things to impact winning when his shot has been off,

but that certainly doesn't make him a better player than Luca Dodgers because the gap offensively is absolutely massive. Like, I think there's a big gap between those two as NBA players. But you do have that standard as Luca. and specifically when your shortcoming is your effort and your focus, that's what's so disappointing. That's why you have to get on him. And in this moment, he absolutely answered the call.

Yeah, and I think Luca's got that, I think he's got that kind of Michael Jordan stuff where he, like, has a chip on his shoulder. And if you give him that extra kind of fuel or motivation, he's one of those guys that you don't want to give it to him. You know what I mean? You don't want to give him anything. extra that he can work with.

And I think he took it to heart. Again, that doesn't excuse any of his performance in game three. And I loved what Wendy said after game three. I thought he hit everything on the head. He said a lot of the same stuff we did. I also hated his comments in the presser. You know, it came off really like immature after the game where he was talking about NBA finals, you know, we can't play physical, six fouls.

What are you talking? And it just came off really like immature. And so I'm just something. not excusing that at all, but I did think everything in game four, I think he internalized a lot of the things that were said about him, and he changed it. I didn't see him moaning to refs. I saw him hustling and getting back on defense. You know what I mean? He was a lot more under control, and there's one more final aspect. Again, I'm not a doctor. I have not been under the influence of any of these things that Luca is getting shot up with. And again, I don't want

to speculate on something like this. Hear me out. This is about to get kooky. This is about to get Logan Camden tinfoil hat, I can feel it. Do you think that they're affecting him adversely in any kind of extra ways? I mean, emotionally? No, I don't. You don't think so? I don't think that. No.

Okay. I was just, I was just, like, it's just such a drastic change to me. And it's not like we haven't seen this in the playoffs already. We saw it in Oklahoma City series where he's crying and complaining about calls. And in the next game, he comes in completely locked in. I just know Luke has been shot up with a bunch of stuff to get him. to power through these playoffs. And I don't know, man.

Maybe it is a little thing. If anything, it would make you more chill, bro. It's not going to make you a year ago. Legitimately. But no, I really don't think that's the case. I like chill, Louca. I like- I like-chion injections.

I like Happy Luca, man. He looks a lot better. Anyway, this version of Luca, when he gets, when he can reach that Kyrie Zen kind of state, man, it's for the better of the team and for the betterment of Luca Donchich. Tonight was a lot more controlled, man. And that's all you can ask for him, right? You can't go back and play that game

over again. You can't go back and all you can do is make the current situation better. And he did. All of the questions, all of the criticisms. Luke answered that emphatically with his first quarter, or first half, excuse me, and with his defensive performance top to bottom. And with his demeanor, everything that we were critical love in game three, I was really satisfied with what we got from Lucas. Just a really good answer from a question that left, or from a game that left me really disappointed. Absolutely. But he has to be at that level consistently.

And that's where it's like we're praising him for this game. Keep in mind that does not mean that over the course of this series, he has not been disappointing and costly in the effort categories on the defensive side of the ball because of course he overall absolutely has been. And that has been the focus of the MAV's discourse. And while Lucas defense was a big problem and there's sort of a given reality going into of this series, that Boston is way more talented. So you need your two stars of your Dallas to be way better than Boston's best two guys.

You need them to, like, be overwhelmingly great in terms of their impact on the game. That's just understood. But even within that understanding, on top of Lucas defensive struggles, these role players for Dallas, who are much more limited compared to Boston's, had also like really underperformed even for their standards, had really, really struggled. and I thought that that dynamic was very different in this game. And the biggest guy who deserves credit there is Derek lively. I just thought his activity was absolutely sensational,

seven offensive rebounds in this game, just maniacal in his pursuit of the ball. And as we've talked about, Boston's ability to switch everything means that you're not going to get those easy roles for the Dallas Bigs because they're not getting behind you. But what it does allow is for them to have these advantages on the offensive glass against these smaller players off of switches, and you absolutely saw lively take full advantage of that.

And he just had a couple sequences in this game. There was one in the first half where he hits the corner three, which was absolutely insane, made me do like a cartoon rub my eyes to make sure that I wasn't seeing things. I wanted to reach for my spectacles, which don't exist. That was insane his first career three. Then on the other end, blows up an Xavier Tillman attempt around the rim, then gets back in transition.

Kairie throws him a lob. Tatum gets lost a little bit. Emphatic finish, big moments of play. He had another sequence where Derek Jones Jr. just dribbled the ball off his feet. Who was there to the 50-50 ball? It was lively. He picks it up, finds a wide open Kyrie from beyond the arc.

Kyrie misses and then it's lively who was there for the offensive rebound. Just making play after play. And that differential on the glass, that differential in terms of effort to 50-50 balls was reflected across the board between these two teams. But lively was the single biggest difference maker there. And I just think he's already so special in terms of his impact for a rookie, and he can be a really awesome player.

But I want to give props to Josh Green, who defended really well. He made some of those high effort plays, forcing a jump ball, stripping Jason Tatum, getting an offensive rebound. Dante Exum gave you good minutes in this one. Hit it above the break three, which we know has been like the holy grail for the MAF supporting cast when they can do that. He stole a rebound from a Celtic. Maxi Kleba comes in, hits a corner three. He was defending very well.

He deflects a pass into a steel. Like all of those dudes impacted the games with their defense, with their effort, and then also made their open shots, which they hadn't been able to do through the first three games of this series. When this was an actual NBA game, I stopped paying attention after that point. But like before the starters were pulled, PJ, Derr Jones Jr., Cleba, Lively, and Dante Exum had combined to go six of nine from deep. It's not high volume, but it's obviously amazing efficiency. and that's just a massive improvement because that has ultimately been this team's biggest limitation, just the complete lack of production from those guys.

Boston's ability to say, okay, Kyrie and Luca, you have to do everything and just living with the reality that you're not getting creation from anywhere else. And even when those guys had gotten good looks, they were not making them. They really stepped up to the task in this game. And again, it's going to be a case ultimately of too little too late. You're still down 3-1 to a better team with home court advantage.

But they also answered the call on this one. Yeah, they did. Above the break threes, and that was, it's like when the floodgates open up now and everything's going right. And then the pressure is off and then they can just start draining threes. But huge impacts. I mean, once Derek lively hits a three, you know that it's just one of those days. It's like Xavier Tillman last game for the Celtics. Also, one more play that I wanted to mention for Lively.

It gets called back. Lively has that short roll kick out to X him for the open part. and, you know, they ended up calling it back because Exum's football was on the line. You got great minutes. And I would turn to Examine Green more in this series. Apparently, I think Twitter said Tim Hardaway Jr. ended up knocking down five threes. I don't care.

Also a part of the floodgates in the fourth quarter. That's an all-time empty stats. That's the most Tim Hardaway Jr. mess ever. All right, T.HJ, we're going to play you 19 minutes in a crucial game three because we need an injection of offense. He goes 0 for 5 and gets attacked defensively. THJ we're up 35. He goes crazy.

Yeah, everything. I'm going to Examin Green the rest of the series. I think they gave them great minutes. I also think, I love what Exxon brings, like, offensively in terms of extra ball handling, pushing and transition. I think it's a really valuable thing to have just because there's so much, all their other guys are limited. And then Green just brings another dimension defensively.

Those guys are obviously always question marks in terms of what they're going to do shooting-wise, but I think they bring enough aggregate value in other areas where I'm giving those guys minutes over the likes of Hardy or Tim Hardaway, Jr. There's no doubt in my mind. Those are the guys are given minutes too. And they played well enough, man. Yeah. I am pretty disappointed in Boston.

Do you want to get into that or you want to hold up for a second? Let's take a quick break. And then we'll talk about the Boston side of this, where they need to improve after, of course, some quick words from draftings. We are this close to crowning an NBA champ, and with the action heating up on the court, it's even hotter at Draft King Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA. And Draft King Sportsbook has you covered every step of the way, with same game parlays, live betting, odds boosts, and so much more, don't miss out as the NBA postseason winds down.

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And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows, without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series

because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night bases on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing.

That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball like, After you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Most people out here think that taking care of one another is important. And most people would step up for a neighbor going through a tough time.

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Oh, it's one of my other favorite places. The Twilight Gazebo. Sunset Gardens, Twilight Gazebo. What's next? Dead Man's Grove? Mom, could you please try to be a little bit popular? positive about this. From Kenya Barris, the visionary creator of Blackish, comes Big Age, an audible original about

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to start listening today. Hey, it's Edwin Castro, also known as Castro 1021. And I'm Conky, his best friend and business manager. And we've got a new show called The 1021 Podcast. I'm taking you behind the scenes on how I became one of Twitch's most popular streamers. We also love sports. And with the World Cup right around the corner, we'll be breaking down the biggest storylines

ahead of the big tournament here in the USA. Listen to the 1021 podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jared Adano. You might know me as that loud guy who yells out, help on the internet. Help! Somebody!

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available on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I can't help but notice the volume of my hair in that draft came to that, Logan. Be honest, do you think I look British with this haircut? The picture you posted on Twitter, you do look British. You don't look British, bro? I think I'm a professional.

Propa guise, mate. Brof. Yeah, dude, the cut does look in British. Yeah, it's all right. I don't have much margin with my complexion. I mean,

obviously there's a good bit of Scottish and Irish in here, but the cut is definitely making me look British. Anyways, that's something that I'm grappling with. You get a puffer on. It's over.

I think you could convert. I mean, that would be tough. That would be tough. I would love to rock the puffer. Let's talk about the Boston side of this, because Dallas obviously was awesome. But it was also super disappointing from Boston. What to you was the biggest issue on their end?

Yeah, there were a lot of issues containing dribble penetration, reliably ending possessions. I mentioned the rebounding discrepancy in meaningful minutes. They get out rebounded by 24. They allow Dallas to grab 12 offensive rebounds. They get out rebounded by 10 there. Luca and Kyrie were getting what they wanted at will. Some of that is attacking smart mismatches on their end. and some of that is Boston being apathetic defensively.

My biggest issue is probably Boston offensively, and really what we got from Tatum and Brown. Tatum opened this game up, and I thought we were going to get a great Jason Tatum game. Maybe not shooting the ball, but what he was doing, getting downhill, he had 11 points in the first quarter, was finishing really well at the rim through contact.

And if you know anything about Jason Tatum, that's arguably the biggest area where he struggled. Now, his jumper's been horrible in these playoffs. His three ball has been horrible in these playoffs, right? There's been a lot of areas Jason Tatum has struggled scoring offensively. But he's always kind of struggled a little bit at scoring at the rim. And out of the gates, he's attacking closeouts at a high level. He's getting downhill at will.

He's finishing through contact. Taintiff scores four points the rest of the game. Like Jalen Brown scores 10 points total in this game. One, I thought they had a couple of possessions where just bad decisions and bad, ugly turnovers that are just inexcusable. But the bigger thing to me is that in the second quarter, as Dallas is slowly, slowly, slowly pulling away, and it's like, uh-oh, it's time to hit the panic button.

Tatum and Brown just let it pass them by. Again, it's not really... Again, I think Luca and Kyrie on the night-to-night basis are probably more consistent than both these guys offensively. And I like their skill sets more than Brown and Tate. them for sure. But it's just realizing the gravity of the situation and going, all right, man, Holiday's not hitting Jack. All right, man, Derek White is clanging every three. We got to get downhill. We got to take over right now. And I'll cut them a little slack. Boston did miss a lot

of point-length layups. They did miss a lot of open threes in this game. But it's really Tatum and Brown's passivity that left me the most disappointed. Like, they've been great. Or, excuse me, Brown has been great in these first three games. Tatum's been so-so. But, well, Well, we got out of Tatum in the first quarter. I thought he was going to crank it up a notch. I thought we were going to get aggressive Tatum all game long, and slowly, slowly, he just fades away. And I hate that about Tatum.

We've seen that consistently enough where it's like, that's one of the knocks on Tatum. It's not just all his three was off tonight or all his mid-range game was off. He disappeared. It's the Homer Simpson mean, man. He just went into the bushes was gone. He never showed back up.

And Jaylon Brown on that. Same thing. He had some moments in transition, but it's like consistently in the half court. we'll just let this possession pass us by. So really it was everything from Boston. It was all their bad tendencies. It was early shot clock threes.

It was Tatum and Brown being passive. It was bad, costly, ugly turnovers. It's them not finishing possessions on the glass due to effort. It's all of Boston's bad tendencies coming to light on the biggest stage. But the area I was most disappointed by far had to be Tatum and Brown's passivity. These are two guys I consider to be stars. Maybe not superstars, Carson, right? I don't know if either of these guys are top 10 to me, but they're top 20 for sure.

You know, top 25 locked both of these guys. And I just can't have two top 25 guys be this passive offensively when you need them. Your offense is sinking, guys. You're offensive crumbling and you're nowhere to be seen. That's where I was most disappointed with Boston. It was definitely rough from both of these guys. And I totally agree with you when it comes to season control of the game, because although they were both very much struggling to get downhill with the same sort of ease,

and so they weren't getting the same good looks, your offense can't devolve into Drew Holiday being the guy trying to create in isolation. Like if anything, it has to be Derek White. Derek White is the awesome pick and roll ball handler. Like he is the better creator in those spots. Drew is so great at doing everything away from the ball, everything to compliment. but he really, really struggled dictating offense, and they did just kind of let that happen.

So that's my biggest frustration with Boston. You had a really rough game. And you miss some good looks from three absolutely, but also Dallas took you out of your comfort zone. But you have to stay strong to your principles. It's something that up to this point on both sides of the ball, Boston has done. They have believed in their strengths and their identity.

This game, they went away from that. They stopped trying to put that sort of pressure with the drive-and-kick game, and it just led to some really bad results offensively. And you can't overreact to this game because if I were a betting man, I would bet on Boston closing this out in five. If I were a betting man, I would bet a whole, whole lot of money on Boston winning this series.

And they deserve a lot of credit for everything that they've done this season. I do think, though, and we talk about this a lot, there is such a tendency to conflate a team's best players with the team result and just say, the best guy on the best team is the best player, some version of that. And I think we've seen that a little bit with Jalen Brown recently, along with Jason Tatum. I love Jalen Brown. I love Jalen Brown.

Listen, I had Cal Bears season tickets, but he's been playing the best basketball of his life. He deserves a bunch of credit. Once people start talking about him knocking on the door of like top 10 conversations, though, that's where I just want to zoom out again and understand. The Boston Celtics are an amazing team because they have a top 10 player in Jason. Jason Tatum, not a top five player, a top 10 player, a top 20-ish player in Jalen Brown, and then three more top 50 players and Al is playing like a top 75 player. Like that is what in their bench is playing well.

They have an overwhelming amount of aggregate talent. And we don't necessarily have to push up every individual guy because the team is dominating. They're dominating because they are a great team. And I just think, again, some of those things got a little bit out of hand with some of the Jalen conversations. As great as he has been playing, I do still think he's improved as a playmaker.

You're not getting consistent high-end stuff there. He's been great as a score in this playoff run. He's not normally this efficient in that role. I love the guy. He's a really, really good number two. But this was a rough game for him. It was a rough game for Tatum. And just purely when we're talking about the league's absolute best duos,

like, no, they're not a top two, top three duo to me. They're in that next group. They're really, really good. but they are the lead duo for an amazingly talented basketball team. But when we talk about not overreacting to this one, a major factor was just the urgency. Dallas came out with 1,000 times the urgency. Everybody played well due to have been bricking wide open threes,

started hitting them. Boston came out with no urgency and nobody played well. So that's the reality of this basketball game. When you're up 3-0, generally it's a good bit harder to finish a team off if they are going to play with pride on their home floor and effort than it is for them to pull out that one win. So you don't want to overreact to this if you're boss. And I really, really don't think it'll cost them.

But it is still disappointing to just get beaten down like that and really have no response. So where they need to be better, more connected defensively and just a more intense defensive effort overall. I thought Jason Tatum actually wasn't very good on that side of the ball. Tonight, nobody was great. And again, the weak points were exploited more so than we've seen. It's incredible how Derek White. all defense guard has become like one of the couple of dudes you want to go at because it's not

Al Horford. Al Horford, Logan, guarding Luke and Kyrie through the first three games of this series. They shot like 27% against him. And that was on high volume. They had been going at him. Shout out to Big Al. Incredible what he's done defensively in this series. But you need to see a much better defensive effort from Boston.

Also, they did blitz Kyrie like one time in this game. And it led to a really easy attack for Luke off the catch. I do think they need to stick to their principles and their system, not overhaul. helping, not overcommitting there. And then when it comes to how they can get back to what they did so well offensively, as we talked about, don't let your process break down, stick to that drive and kick game. When it comes to targeting weak points, maybe you want to target Kyrie more now than Luca, just because with Lucas size, he can hold up in terms of physicality on some of those

drives better, whereas with Kyrie, you have such a significant size advantage that you can go back to the basket, you can go through them a little bit more easily. although I will say he defended Jason Tatum pretty well on a couple of isolations today. But Tatum can force that switch as the screener and then get a seal and get a very easy cut and basically a wide open layup. We've seen that in each of the last two games. I do think I would probably go more at Kyrie because of that size factor. And Jason and Jaylon need to keep on being aggressive. Those are the things to me.

They're all pretty easy to execute. And if Dallas defends much better, then that makes things harder. But it doesn't mean that things have to go like they did tonight. Yeah, I agree with all of those keys. I have two more to add for Boston, one on offense. I think you see a lot tonight. Lively or Gafford are out on the perimeter because Boston is running that five out and they're matched up with, you know, Holiday or they're matched up with whoever.

There were so many times in this game where the pain is wide open, and I'm just waiting for a Boston Celtic to, like, flash there with no big man. And I just don't think they did that enough. Like, I am consciously looking for that in the game. If Lively is out of the paint, cool. I'm going there with somebody. Like even if it doesn't, even if you don't kick it to him on the low block, I'm either trying to drive when Lively is not down there and forcing him to help off,

which is going to generate an easy look, drive and kick. That's what Boston wants to do. Or like I said, man, I'm setting up something. I'm trying to get somebody to cut to the paint for an easy bucket. More paint touches, more paint. You can't get blown out like that in the paint. And then my final thing is really just urgency in boxing. I need Boston to box.

I was outside of Jason Brown and Jason Brown, Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum and their issues, I was most disappointed with the collective effort on the glass. A big reason why Boston was able to dominate those first two games wasn't because of a crazy margin on that end, but everybody is getting a body. I mean, that just stuck out on the tape. Like everybody is walling up on that end. Really poor effort from this team, especially like, and you got Josh Green who just got subbed into the game and you got,

I have four Boston players just looking up at the rim like, just waiting for the ball to come in, and Green comes in and takes it. There's a couple other instances with Lively. There were a lot tonight where Boston's not putting a body on nobody, not boxing at all. That's got to change. I want to zoom out for one more big picture kind of question, Carson.

You talk about people elevating Jalen Brown to maybe conversations where he doesn't belong, you know, devaluing Jason Tatum. I want to talk about this whole team because I saw somebody in the comments section brought it up. I don't think that one game makes a team, but I know a lot of people are going to react to this violently. Does this change to you, Boston's historical status as an all-time basketball team? Not by any significant margin,

but it makes a little bit of a difference for sure if they had stormed through and played four straight really good games against clearly their toughest competition in this run on top. of the really amazing regular season they had. I mean, that would be a pretty unassailable season. Really the only thing you could point to is the path in the east. But then you would say, okay, but they ran through those guys. And then they destroyed Dallas.

They swept them. But it's not just that they lost. Like they really did get destroyed in this game. So I do think that maybe it slightly changes where they fall in these conversations. But ultimately, that regular season resume is one of the strongest that we've seen, and they still very well could end up finishing this postseason with just three games lost, which is very rare, and they're one of the most talented teams we've seen. So I think Boston's going to end up this year being viewed as somewhere between, in my eyes,

like top 15, top 20 team in NBA history. I don't think that they're going above that in top 10. I don't think they're going below that. And not to cut Boston extra slack, but, and this is kind of a like dream scenario for any team. I think it's unrealistic because it never happens. But if they were injury-free, right? I think there's a real argument that Boston might have just gone 16 and 0 and not lost a single game throughout the fight.

Like the level of dominance that we saw this team reach. But then I know the opponents aren't injury-free. That's true. I get that's hypothetical with KP, but I don't know, the level that we saw this team reach, I just want to also contextualize that that he is such a game changer. We can rain praise on Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum, but Forsingis breaks the game for those guys

and opens up so much more for them that I don't want to lose side of that. Boston at full health is a completely different version than this team. This is their floor. This is the floor of the Boston Celtics without Christop's Foresingus. Losing by 40. Yeah. I'm kidding. No, they're still very good without KP,

but they are absolutely a good bit better with him. KP's a game-changing talent on both sides of ball. I should have been an all-star this year. I called him their second best player throughout this regular season. Maybe J.B is past him with the level he's been at in these playoffs, but it's also tough because KP's only had limited opportunities to prove himself in the playoffs. And he was absolutely amazing in game one. So this team is really overwhelmingly talented.

And that's why I am so confident in them still finishing this out. Their shot quality has been so much higher overall. They have been able to find more weak points to attack defensively. They have way more aggregate offensive skill. the role players are so much more reliable. And then I think they'll significantly improve in the effort categories. Because again, this is like the toughest spot, even though it's the NBA finals to just get yourself psyched up for a game.

When you're up 3-0, you're on the road. It's not surprising when you come out a little bit flat given those circumstances. But I would like to see Logan one Jason Tatum game in the NBA finals where things are clicking for them offensively because you're a little bit. lower on him than I am. But I had him as my number nine player when we did our rankings at the end of the regular season. I'm not a big Jason Tatum guy.

And the thing with him always is the offensive inconsistency. The rebounding impact, the defensive impact is consistently awesome. The playmaking in this series has been really good in games one and two. It was awesome. But the shot making and the scoring has just been like pretty outright bad. And if people want to put him in a top five conversation, like, I just think there's an offensive floor with everybody else who we have up in that tier that is substantially different from Jason Tatum.

And again, like we're looking at four games, dude, and the best was last game where he had 27 on 11 of 26 shooting and he sucked in the fourth quarter. I did not like the shots that he was taking. That is disappointing. So the most important thing, of course, is that you win a title. That's all I'm sure Boston fans care about. but also it's like we got to make sure people don't get out of hand with Jason Tatum stuff. And this is an opportunity for him to have a moment. Like he hasn't had that moment.

As fun as it is to enable a switch everything defensive scheme and to make these plays that don't always show up on the stat sheet. Like if you're number one, you want to have a moment. And he certainly hasn't had one in this series. So maybe that's the silver lining for him. He can come back in game five and kick some ass. We'll see if he's up to it. Any final thoughts, Logan, before we wrap this puppy up? Yeah, and do it on his home floor.

I mean, what better feeling on his own floor. Yeah, that's more fun. That's a lot more fun. The Bostonians, I'm sure, would love that. Get ring number 18. Separate yourself from the Lakers for the moment. People really hate the Celtics, dude. That's what I realized.

What do you think people hate more? The Celtics are the Lakers? Celtics, for sure. I also find it, I find it really ironic that, well, one, I think it's going to be awesome that if they do get it done, They're going to honor Bill Walton, but I also find it ironic that also the year that Jerry West pass away, the freaking Celtics are going to win the chip, man. I didn't want to see that shit.

He just, yeah, he said I'm out. Boston, it's Boston by a mile, man. Boston for sure. I think that might be, is it the most hated, for me, it probably is the most hated sports city like in the United States. Who is it for you? Definitely city. Definitely city. I don't hate anyone, Logan.

That's something that a lot of people maybe can't quite understand. I've hated. I've hated one man. I've since put it to rest. But Tom Brady was number one on my hit list for a very long time. Yeah, I don't like the New England Patriots, but that's because I'm a Bill's fan. In basketball, there's really not a team that I dislike. So the Celtics are a great team. I think it'd be fun if we could all appreciate them as a great team. Not going to happen, though. Not going to happen. People have their blinders on for Celtics good stuff, but Celtics bad stuff. It's like a pack of vultures, man, all over. over that carcass, all over that carcass up 3-0. You have one bad game, throwing a party. So that's kind of the reality for them. But also Boston sports fans are crazy spoiled. And they like to act like they're not. It's like fellas, you know, the babe curse isn't a thing anymore. Bill Simmons tweeted out a picture of like Marciaun Brooks and a couple other Celtics from 2013 and he was like, it's been a hell of a journey. It's like, okay, you guys were literally

bad for two seasons. You understand you have those guys because you pulled off like the greatest heist in league history that then set you up to draft your two franchise building blocks now. Things are going pretty well. He had to endure Jared Selinger and RJ Hunter minutes, man. You wouldn't get it. I wouldn't. All right, guys, appreciate you tuning in. As always, hope you enjoyed. If you did, the good news is there is plenty more nerds session content. If you enjoy, enjoyed the show. Throw us a little subscribe on YouTube if you want to. We have all of our full shows here. We'll be back after game five. Of course, we have our video essays, video breakdowns that you can watch.

I thought about doing one about Al Horford after game three, but then I thought who wants to watch a video about Al Horford? So I decided not to do it. But shout out Big Al. And if they do get a ring, there will be a lot of Al appreciation, which I fully expect them to do. So stay tuned in for the Al Horford love on the podcast when this is. Celtics do win the title. If you want to listen to the show, it's across all audio platforms. You can follow us across social, TikTok, Instagram, at NerdSesh to see our trivia content to see clips from the show, Twitter at Nerd underscore Sesh. You can check out our merch at the volume.com.

And you can join our Discord for a chance to speak to the one and only Matthew Spahn Hour. The link to that is at the link tree across our social media bios. So with that, as always, appreciate you guys. I've been Carson Brabber. I've been Logan Kandon. And this was NerdSat. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel. and friends on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The story I've told myself can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown if you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole. This podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas.

And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was hungry. You just understood. That's how personal it got.

Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis' keep coming to him. He's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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