The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Nerd Sesh - The Boston Celtics are the 2024 NBA Champions

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

The nerds react to Game 5 of the NBA Finals as Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown and Kristaps Porzingis close out Luka Doncic, Kyrie Irving and the Dallas Mavericks. Timestamps 00:00:23 - The Celtics are historically great 00:12:19 - Who deserved Finals MVP? 00:20:28 - How high has Jaylen Brown climbed among the NBA’s elite? 00:25:54 - How much Jaylen Brown has improved 00:28:22 - The contributions of Derrick White & Jrue Holiday 00:35:55 - Sam Hauser’s revenge tour 00:41:28 - How would you grade Luka Doncic’s finals performance? 00:50:16 - How would you grade Kyrie Irving’s finals performance? 00:55:16 - What does Dallas need to address in the offseason? 01:01:45 - Dallas’ historic mid-season turnaround 01:06:08 - Is Al Horford a hall-of-famer? 01:14:33 - Does this run change your perspective of Joe Mazzulla? 01:17:37 - Is Boston the best champion since 2000? 01:28:54 - Is Boston the heavy favorite for next season? 01:32:58 - Has Boston even played up to their ceiling? #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Charles Darwin. The nerds is where it's at. Welcome everybody back into nerds session. As always, I'm Carson Brever, and alongside me is local. Camden, and we have a new NBA champion. The Boston Celtics, your Boston Celtics, Logan, those boys up north who you love, oh so much, have officially put away the Dallas Mavericks in five. Not a surprising outcome at all in this game, considering how things had been going,

but a dominant showing from the Celtics nonetheless, Logan. They now finish this season, 64 wins in the regular season, 16 and 3 in the playoffs, putting them in some rare historic company there. in terms of that end-to-end dominance. When you think of this Boston Celtics team, what do you define them in this championship run and in this series? I define that this is a historical team. You lean into it a little bit, Carson,

but that's kind of my big takeaway from this series is just how great this basketball team is and how different this title is and how we should view it from previous winners. One, Boston finally gets a big monkey off their back, man. We talked about this a lot leading up to the, the finals, six conference finals in eight years, you know, two NBA finals appearances in three years. This is a team that has consistently been hitting their head on the ceiling over and over again,

man, just can't break through. And they finally get it done. But that's kind of the emphasis to me, is that it's the team getting this done. I don't think that we're crowning a new best player in the world, so to speak, the way, you know, former titles, you know, I just, I want to clear that out of the way because I think that's a lot of the way a lot of casual NBA talk is going to be discussed. Is all Tatum's about later? I don't think. I really don't think we're going to see that. Jason Tatum shot, what, like 38% from the field in this series? 39. Yeah. I don't think we're getting that talk. But I think we got to emphasize that, right? Yokic has his run. Janis has his run.

A couple years back, you know, Kauai has his run. This to me is different. This is an all-time team. And you can clown them for their struggles in game four. You can clown them for struggling with easy opponents in the East. Conference, I sure did, all throughout the playoffs. But they go 16 and three during the playoffs. And as you mentioned, Carson, they are just the 10th team in NBA history to lose three or less games than a playoff run en route to a title. They had the tied third highest net rating in all of NBA history. And I think it's important that you also contextualize this, that they do this largely without Christop's forzingis. Did they need him most of the way? No, they faced a lot of inferior competition, frankly, in the Eastern Conference. But they do it without him. That makes this

run all the more impressive. And I think the area you have to look at most is Boston's defense throughout, man, if it was Tatum and Jalen Brown on the court, if Porzingis was healthy, like this is a great all-time defense, man. They held Dallas eight points below their regular season offensive rating in the NBA finals, an offensive rating south of 110 for Dallas. I mean, that's really impressive, considering they have one of the greatest offensive players in NBA history and Luca Donchich. And that's where I largely credit this team, man, for consistently making life hard on Luca and Kyrie for game planning around Dallas's role players to force them to eat to beat you for consistent effort on the glass, man, for consistent hustle and

energy from everybody down the roster. That's my big takeaway from this, man. This is an all-time defense. I think this is an all-time basketball team, and we are not crowning a new superstar, a new face of the NBA, so to speak, but this is the culmination of a team that has worked really hard to get here and hit their head on the ceiling a lot in work. working up to this moment, man, and it's the crowning of a new NBA juggernaud, in my opinion, man. I know a lot of people are going to push back all their path was really easy.

All they faced inferior competition every single round. I do think this is an all-time team. And maybe not top 10 all-time, but top 15, top 20, top 25. I think you can make an argument. And, yeah, they're historically great, man. That's the takeaway from this team. This is a historically great team from start to finish, man. Boston dominated.

And the talent there has never been in question. We've said it multiple times. When you're talking about five top 50 dudes on the same team, you got to go back close to 40 years when you're talking about the late 80s Lakers and then the 83-6ers when you're seeing that sort of talent in terms of a complete starting five-on-one team and even down one of those guys with KP out for most of the series. And clearly very hobbled tonight when he did play, Al Horford steps up and plays a phenomenal basketball series.

So you mentioned the rare company that they join. Since the playoffs expanded to the full four rounds, here are all the champions to lose three games or fewer. The 86 Celtics, top three team of all time. The 87 Lakers, the best iteration ever of that team. Definitely a top 10 team of all time. The 89 Pistons right on the fringe of top 10, I would say a top 12 team of all time.

The 91 Bulls, the most dominant playoff version that we ever saw in the Michael Jordan era. The 96 Bulls, who a lot of people will tell you was the greatest team of all time. The 99 Spurs, shout out to them, the 0-1 Lakers, who had the single most dominant postseason that we've seen outside of maybe the 71 bucks. They actually have the best point differential in the playoffs. And then the 2017 Warriors, who I would probably say are the best team of all time.

It's them. And then it's the 1996 pulls just a hair behind. So that's the company they're in. And even if you push it a little bit further back to when you're just looking at three full rounds, well, then you have joining that the 83-6ers. utterly dominant postseason team, the 82 Lakers, the 72 Lakers and the 71 bucks, the 72 Lakers and 71 bucks also both being clearly top 10 teams of all times. So when you pair that with the regular season resume, there is context to be applied.

This was not a difficult postseason path. But nevertheless, this was an overwhelmingly talented team that was exceptionally complete on both sides of the ball. And I think you hit on the key point, Logan, their consistent floor was provided by that defensive identity. because the Celtics are oozing with offensive talent. And they actually posted the highest regular season offensive rating we've ever seen this year. But the staple of their success, especially in this series, was their ability to limit this Dallas offense to take away all of the easy lobs that we had seen because of their ability to switch everything

and keep the bigs from getting behind you on the role. To force Luke and Kyrie both to consistently score in single coverage against a bunch of great defenders. There was not a weak point on the floor in this series. You're talking about trying to hunt Derek White, an all defense guard. That's how sound this personnel was, especially in that starting five, because Al Horford played out of his mind defensively in this series. You're not getting easy corner threes because you're not overhelping on these dudes.

And even when they were facing overwhelmingly single coverage, like Kyrie and Luca both struggled as scores compared to their average. They were both below their normal volume and efficiency. And the whole game plan is to make them beat you as score. take away their playmaking impact. So when you can take a chunk out of them in both those aspects and you can test at times these very suspect role players with wide open above the break threes and they don't punish you,

it was just phenomenal game plan. It was phenomenal execution. And they have phenomenal defensive talent. So as much as anything, that is the MVP of this series for Boston, as is their aggregate offensive talent. You can't talk about this team. You can't talk about this run.

You can't talk about this series without Drew Holiday. His overwhelming defensive value, his exceptional rebounding, his all-around versatile offensive impact, the dynamic three-point shooting of Derek White and his valuable playmaking and defense. But I do want to give props in this specific game to Jason Tatum, Logan, because one of the stories of this series has just been him going out there and doing everything but scoring at a high level, enabling their defensive scheme because he can guard fives playmaking as well as we've ever

seen, but the shot had just been abysmal through four games of this series. he came out in this one and he actually started ice cold. But that second quarter, he ends the first half playing by far his best offensive half that we saw throughout this series and completely out playing Luca in the first half of this game, which ultimately really was this basketball game. It was kind of over once Peyton Pritchard hits that signature half court shot of his, that man, just unbelievable at those shots. But from the jump, like Tatum is just generating good offense.

He's running that inverted pick and roll with Drew Holliday as the screener. he's making the right reads. I thought that consistently he was hitting the necessary kickout passes, finding dudes in the dunker spot, pushing in transition selectively, all the stuff that he's been doing so well, creating for others in this series. And then after he did start cold as a shooter,

he started getting to that rim. He was very aggressive, really nice drive on Max C C C Clliba, who guarded him well, beat Derek lively off the bounce. And so in a lot of ways, this first half kind of personified the areas of improvement that we've seen from Jason Tatum

from this year compared to previous seasons. The playmaking growth, I think, has been very real. This series to me is the best playmaking series we've ever seen from Jason Tatum. And he had some awesome moments in that 20-22 run. He also had stretches where he was just turning the ball over way too much. Like he was much more consistent in this run and particularly in this series. He had a lot of turnovers in game one, but created so many great shots for his teammates. And then the added strength, the added physicality as a driver.

We've heard that he's put on like 20 pounds of muscle from last year. he struggled as a finisher overall in this series. But in this game, I thought that he was pretty darn good there. He still missed a couple of chip shots around the rim. But for the most part, when things were sort of going south for him as a score, because the jump shot was off as it was throughout this entire series. And really the entire postseason, he used his physicality. As the people would say, he remembered that he's six, nine.

And that was really, really essential in the first half of this game. And then he went quiet in the third, but it's okay. Your team is too good. You built too much of a margin. And then he had that little spurt in the fourth quarter. I guess you could credit him with sort of closing the door. Like that game was over. I almost felt a little bit weird watching that because I was like,

are he and Jalen going to stat pat in the fourth quarter? Like are they thinking about the finals MVP? Because we got a very assertive Jason Tatum once the game was basically over. I will say. But hey, he was cooking in that little stretch. So this was a very rough scoring series for him. Like that is apparent with the volume. That is apparent with the efficiency.

That was the case. in every game except for this one. Game three, he had a good first half, but then he really struggled in that second half, struggled in fourth quarters overall outside of tonight. But he consistently found multiple ways to impact the game. That doesn't change who Jason Tatum is. As you say, if you want to put him in best player in the world conversations, you're out of your goddamn mind.

Like there is a completely different level of offensive consistency that you are getting from those absolute tier one guys that just puts them on a different level. If you want to compare Jason Tatum and Eniqa Yokic, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. There is not even close to the level of two-way gap that would be necessary to offset the offensive gap between, in my opinion, maybe the best offensive player ever

and an exceptionally inconsistent superstar in Jason Tatum. But again, I don't think people are doing that. I still don't think he's top five. But the concern with Tatum as your number one was always, okay, if we need him to rise to that top five level consistently, to go toe to toe with the absolute best. in the world offensively. Can he do that?

Because most champions throughout NBA history, almost all of them really have needed that. Boston is so great that they didn't need that. And Tatum played like a top 10 player. I believe he is a top 10 player. But the offensive consistency was something that a lot of teams couldn't have overcome from their number one guy.

This is just a different kind of situation. And that's where I agree with you completely. This is about the Boston Celtics. The story of this team is one of the most talented and complete basketball teams. It's not about the guy, as it has been with some other recent champions and a bunch of champions throughout NBA history. But that does raise an interesting question, which is Logan, to you.

I don't believe they've announced this yet. I'll check in a second. Who is the finals MVP? I think it's a question of the series, man. Am I crazy for wanting to give it to Drew Holiday? Like, am I out of my gourd for that, Carson? Well, I wouldn't say that you're out of your gourd. I wouldn't say you're off your rocker.

However, I would disagree with it. Here's why this is so tough, right? I think overall impact, if we're going to give it to somebody, I think Jason Tatum was probably the most impactful Celtic on the court across five games. The shooting numbers are terrible. That's why I don't want to give it to Tatum. I'm also biased against Jason Tatum. If you did not realize at the start of this episode, Carson was saying that facetiously.

I do not like the Boston Celtics. I have not like the Boston Celtics. I wear a beanie on here sometimes. I wear it quite ironic. Tonically. Tainum gives you 22 points on 39% from the field, 26% from deep, 51% true shooting. So he's got a stain on his resume. Jalen Brown was not consistent in this basketball game. He took a lot of boneheaded threes, just pull up threes where I'm like, can we move the ball guys? Can we kick the rock out? He gives you 21 points on 54% true shooting. Okay.

In Holiday, who I don't want Holliday's efforts in this game to get lost because I thought he arguably with Tatum might have been the best player on the floor in this game. His slip and go screen stuff with Luca early was genius. And there are a lot of possessions where Luca has matched up with Drew. And Drew knows that Luca has fallen asleep on defense and just gets to the right spot where he needs to be. If it's out of the short roll getting to the paint, if it's in the dunker spot, Holiday is a star off ball the night.

And I think the aggregate contributions you get with him on the glass, with him playmaking gives him a compelling case. I don't think any of these guys have a perfect case for finals MVP, and that's why Mason. I think you could argue Jalen Brown with what he gave you in transition, what he gave you consistently defensively on Luca Donchich. But again, you get some boneheaded decision making, some carelessness with the rock.

Tatum, you get the scoring, and then Drew Holiday, you just don't have the numbers. So in a roundabout way, I've kind of talked myself into Jason Tatum, I guess because of overall impact, defense, rebounding, playmaking. which begs a question to me to our basketball historian on the stage with us. Carson, it's like the ugliest scoring finals run from a finals MVP ever. Like, I have talked myself somehow. Coming into this game, I was leaning Jalen Brown, but it also required a great offensive Jalen Brown game,

which we didn't get tonight. And so, and this is back-to-back nights where, or back-to-back games, excuse me, where it's two poor Jalen Brown offensive performances, which has led me to Jason Tatum. So do you think it's Jason Tatum and do you think this is like the worst scoring performance we've ever seen from a finals MVP outside of maybe Iguidawa? So that's kind of the question.

It's are we talking about volume scoring that was inefficient? Because obviously we have just seen some straight up role players win this award. Andre Guadala being an example, Kauai Leonard being an example in 2014. West Sunseld was not a role player, but he was not scoring the basketball. He was every nine points per game in that series. Cornbread, he was getting buckets in that series, but he's not scoring at like superstar volume. When you're thinking about dudes who were really inefficient in a volume scoring role,

the first who comes to mind to me is Tim Duncan in 2005. And there's a decent amount of people who think that should have actually been Monu's finals MVP because Manu was much more efficient. he was just a better offensive player overall. But Tatum is joining some rough scoring companies since 2000. This would be the sixth lowest points per game by a finals MVP. It would be the second worst true shooting percentage clearing only Duncan. And considering era, I think it might actually be the worst if you adjust it to league average.

But Logan, I checked Jalen Brown has been announced as finals MVP, which is really interesting. I ultimately would have given it to Tatum. Like you, I was tempted to consider the Drew case for effort plays rebounding efficiency, just such a winning basketball player. But I don't like viewing finals MVP in that way. I don't like viewing it as who overachieve the most, who did the most winning things on the margin because that's how you get an Andre Guadala.

Like I do think it should be the best, most impactful player in that series. I think Drew's limitations creating for himself ultimately take him out of that conversation, even though he's not that far off. Like it's not insane to make a Drew case, but I wouldn't agree with it. So you laid out the numbers comp. Tatum gives you 22, 8, and 7 on 50.5% true shooting. And he did do a little bit of late game stat padding in this one. But I just think the efficiency gap between him and Jalen closed by enough overall

to where I would prefer the value of everything that he did at such a high level in this series. I thought his playmaking was legitimately awesome. He was consistently getting by his man and creating. great shots for his teammates. Like a number of great shots, even more so maybe than the raw assist number would reflect in terms of the gap between him and Jalen as playmakers.

I think Jalen was better in terms of pure on-ball defense with what he did on Luca. I thought that he really did quite well in that matchup. But Tatum's rebounding value, his defensive versatility, what that enabled schematically, again with him guarding centers and switching everything,

I would argue was at least as valuable and impactful overall. And as you mentioned, I really did not like Jalen's shot selection in these last two games. I thought he forced a lot of bad pull-up jumpers. And Tatum took some shots that I didn't like. Like there were stretches where I didn't love his shot selection. But overall, he mostly either missed good looks or he was creating good looks for his teammates. He really struggled as a jump shooter. So I'm not pissed with Jalen getting it because I do get those scoring issues for Tatum.

but I did feel like his process was better. I did feel like the attention that he demanded was valuable and was more significant than Jalen. So I did feel like he was the most impactful player overall in this series. But this wasn't going to look like your typical finals MVP either way. I mentioned that Tatum would have been in rough company in terms of scoring volume and efficiency. Jalen is pretty much in that same realm. It was never about the guy. It was always going to be about this team's aggregate talent.

And if you just look at the course of these finals, in each of their wins, Logan, a different Celtic was the best player. KP was their best player in game one. Drew was their best player in game two. Jalen was their best player in game three. Jason Tatum was their best player in game five. I can't remember the last time that that happened.

Four different dudes being the guy for you in each of your wins. But with this team, it's not the least bit surprising that any one of these dudes could step up and be the hero on any given night. Drew with incredibly effective off ball scoring and rebounding in game two. KP with just that dominant mismatch attacking and rim protection in game one. Jalen Brown gives you 24 points in the second half of game three. He's nails as a shot maker. And tonight it's Jason Tatum, who is ultimately your most consistent source of offense.

That just feels very appropriate to me. So this is undeniably the weakest finals MVP since Andre Gwadal in 2015. And it's better than that because Jalen Brown does a of a higher volume role offensively, but you compare it. I mean, since then, we are looking at Yokic all-time series. Steph, Janus, like, these are dominant, dominant final series. Janus, out of those three had the best pure finals. I think they're all probably in the top 15 to 20 individual final series we've seen.

LeBron, Kauai, Katie, back-to-back, LeBron in 2016, like, those are all-time individual performances for the most part. And at the very least, like, yeah, that dude played like a top three player in the world in that series. Just not like that this year. And that's okay. I think it does bring up another interesting question with Jalen Brown. And I do want to give him some props too.

I don't want to just completely dismiss his case because I do think it was close. And like I said, coming into game four, if they had swelled, I thought it was going to be Jaylon Browns. I thought even after a bad game four. I thought it was pretty clear after three. Like Tatum still had the all around impact edge when you're looking at everything but scoring, but the gap purely as scores and the efficiency gap at that point was too big. It's really Jalen really struggling these last two games. Tatum really stepping up in game five.

That to me offset the margin that Jalen had as a score. I agree. And then, you know, Brown does have the moments though. And that's the one area where I give him over Tatum is like, we kept waiting all series long for like Tatum to wake up out of this spill he was in and just catch, you know, fire as a jump shooter, right? I've been very critical of Jason Tatum, but I was really surprised at how much his jumper, you know, was off in these playoffs entirely. Like there wasn't ever really a series or damn near a game in this, you know, entire run. I was like, all right, man, you know, Tatum looks like old Tatum, right? This is a guy who dropped 50 points in a playoff game one time.

That's just not, you know, something you can do it. Yeah, twice, damn it. Like, you can do it once. That's, and we never got like that version of Jason Tatum at all in these playoffs. And I think if he has one of those games, maybe he has a better case. But Brown has the steals and transition and all of those points. And that's another valuable aspect of this too is Brown got a lot of easy stuff in transition. It's swung games, man.

It has all those monster dunks. So I'm not mad at it, man. Like I said, I think three Js had a real chance at this. If it was Jalen, if it was Jason, if it was Drew, I would hear an argument for any of them. The question I'm going to pose to you, Carson, because I think, conversations may get a little bit out of hand after this. Jalen Brown is better than Jason Tatum or so-and-so. I'm not going to entertain that.

What I will entertain is how high, and we're going to balance out his struggles and where he's succeeded, how high do you think Jalen Brown climbed with this playoff run with his finals run? Does it drastically change your view of him as a player and where he ranks among, like, the league's best? Has he climbed up into a new, you know, an upper echelon to you as a player with this? I think he's somewhere around the 20th best player in basketball. I think there is a tier of 14 guys that you really could not argue him above.

And I think of that tier probably ends with like the Anthony Davis, Devin Booker, Anthony Edwards, depending on where you have him, Jason Brunson sort of range. Yeah, like those guys. I just think what they're capable of doing is number ones is pretty clearly on a different level. After that, I would still take Jimmy over Jalen Brown. I did see that debate. I do think that the playmaking edge for Jimmy to me makes them a more consistent number one. And I think defensively in terms of impact, what you're getting is very similar.

It's not a big old margin there. Then you have sort of like the unilateral big time offensive engines with your Tyrese Halliburtons, who I do think I would prefer as a number one. Now, Jalen is an awesome number two, especially in this role. Donovan Mitchell, with how dynamic he is offensively. Again, I would prefer as a number one. I do think that Kyrie is in this conversation. Jalen clearly outplayed him in the series.

So maybe because of the consistency defensively, the physical advantages you would give him the edge. Darren Fox has to be in there. Like there's a lot of the sort of dynamic smaller guards who are clearly better offensive players, but the question is, does Jalen's defensive impact offset that? I think that he's in conversations with all of these guys,

but I would have him around 20. I do not think he's a top 15 player. Yeah, I think I agree with all those guys. Mitchell has elevated himself into a new tier for me as a player after this run. And not just over him, like I'm revisiting conversations we even had with, is a tangent, but like even we talk with,

HOOP venue a while back. I remember that Dibook versus like Donovan Mitchell. And even that, I think I, Mitchell proved himself a lot in this playoff run. And I think he's definitely over him. What about a guy like the only other guy that I was thinking about that you didn't mention was Trey Young. Yeah. He's not so bad.

Yeah. But I think that Brown has to be stamped as that kind of guy in his physical imposition and his defense and his transition. He's got a lot of great traits that just translate to winning basketball. And the Celtics can't get it done without him. Like, I just don't want to elevate him into, you know, because we'll look at the resume and we'll go, oh, he's got finals MVP of this great team. I just don't want to elevate him into conversations where he doesn't really belong. I still don't really think Brown's a number one, but damn, he is like the best number two.

You could ask him. Like, he is, he's so great in this role. But I think I agree with you, man. I think top 25 stamped and then you can make arguments for top 20. Brown is, uh, Brown worked him way. And he was consistent in these playoffs, too. Do you think Brown was consistently Boston's best players throughout the playoff run, too?

No. I think that he was their best score overall. I still would give Tatum an edge as their best player throughout this overall run because of the playmaking. And I do think he was a more impactful overall defensive player, including when you look at what he does on the glass. But this was a really awesome Jalen run. And honestly, the finals was not the best of it because of how this series ended,

but like his efficiency overall, he posts a true shooting percentage of 59. He's been a pretty average efficiency score in the regular season. He was better than that. And that's more impressive because it was the playoffs. And his three point shot kind of left him towards the home stretch of this series, but still his physicality. I mean, he was amazing finishing around the rim.

Playmaking, he's still not a plus there overall. But this series was some of the best that we've seen from him in a high stakes scenario. He absolutely improved there. defensively. He talks about making his own all defense case. I don't think that he's quite there, but I do think he's improved as an all-ball defender. I think he's improved his attentiveness away from the ball,

which historically has been the biggest issue with him. And I do think he is like at that sub-ball defense level. I think he's a very good defender. So he's an awesome basketball player. And I love the guy, dude. I've said it before, but he's a cow bear. There's not a lot of good cow bears in the NBA these days, Logan. And I had season tickets to watch Jalen Brown.

So I saw him at least 10 times in person that year. And sometimes I feel like people overplay the player development angle with him. Celtics fans, I don't think always have an accurate gauge of their own struggles. I saw somebody call him like one of the greatest player development stories in NBA history. It's like he was the third overall pick who turned into a really, really good basketball player. I think we've seen crazier stuff than that over the years. But legitimately, at Cal, he was an incredible, incredible raw athlete. the speed, the power, the frame, all of that was very, very obvious.

His ball handling was shit. His shooting was not nearly good enough. Like, they really did take an exceptional raw athlete. And of course, he deserves a bunch of credit for this, as does the Celtics organization, turn him into a pretty polished score, an improved all-around player. Shout out Jalen Brown, dude. Like, I am super happy for him having this moment. And compared to expectations, there's no question that he played better.

than Jason Tatum, like, just in terms of, if you were to grade them on their own scale, Jalen would grade higher for this series than Jason Tatum, for sure. But I do want to give more props just to this collective team. Derek White in this series gives you 14, 5, and 3 with 2.2 stocks on 59% true shooting. Drew in the finals, 14 and a half, 7.5, and 4 on 62% true shooting. Al Horford, it's not going to show up as much on the stat sheet, but 7, 6 and 3 on 68% true shooting. awesome efficiency, some nice playmaking moments. And defensively, out of this world, through the first three games,

I believe that Luke and Kyrie were combining to shoot 27% with him as their primary defender. And that was with him taking on a bunch of those possessions. Like they could never target him. In fact, he was the best defender on both of them, at least up to that point in this series. I haven't checked the number since then. And the effort plays that you get from all those guys tonight, Logan, a big part of game four was just the Celtics came out flat. Dallas did a lot really well.

Boston did a lot poorly. The shooting variance very much flipped against the Celtics in that game. But they just weren't quicker to the ball. They weren't getting the 50-50 balls. They weren't hustling on the glass. This game, you get 13 offensive rebounds from Drew, White, Hauser, and Hornford combined. And specifically the activity of those guards and wings, rebounding from the perimeter, crashing from the corner,

just using their quickness to get to those balls was massive. And then you have some incredible high effort defensive plays. White blocks Derek lively off an offensive rebound. That was ridiculous. He also, it's numerous bailout late shot clock threes. And they're all contributing to this team defense. Like just what a collective performance. And specifically Drew Holiday, Logan, there's just some amazing stats from him. He set the tone early in this game with what he was doing as a screener.

Then he stripped Kyrie, got out in transition. He was active in the dunker spot. Again, he cut off of an offensive rebound. He had a pull-up three. When the defense was worried about KP posting up, Clebeah was kind of playing the entry pass. He was a bit too far off and Drew just banged a three in his mouth. And that offensive versatility has been the story of this postseason.

We have seen over really his entire career, Drew cast into this role of being like your lead perimeter creator in New Orleans. He had to take on that sort of offensive burden. In Milwaukee, yes, you have Janus, you have Middleton. But Drew was expected to be a 20-point. point per game score and to run a significant portion of the offense to have the ball in his hands in terms of time of possession more than any other player. And he has been alleviated of that role.

And it has just made him such an efficient and effective player. He has the most points per game off of cuts by any guard in the playoffs, the most offensive rebounds per game by any point guard in the playoffs. Another four to 90s. He's at like two a game in the playoffs outstanding there. And he's third among all point guards in post-up points per game to just SGA and Luca. Like he's just doing stuff that is really big man stuff, right? Cutting, rebounding, posting up. That's the sort of physicality and effort that you get from Drew Holiday that is so impactful.

And when we zoom out and think about his career, he now has on his resume, twice being the dude to put a team over the top. Like you trade for Drew Holiday the next year, you win the title because we can give all the love to KP. It wasn't KP in this series. KP played two and a half games and he only played 20-something minutes in game one. And basically that same amount in game two, like Drew in this playoff series was clearly the most impactful edition that they made in just an incredible offseason, an offseason for the ages by Brad Stevens.

He's taken these teams that have been elite in the regular season, as you talked about Logan, knocking on the door, hitting their head on that ceiling. But in each case, they had a clear flaw. Like Milwaukee, they did need somebody who could bring real point of attack defense with improved offensive skill. And Drew wasn't the most consistent there, but he brought enough,

especially in that 2021 title run. It was up and down, but he brought you enough. And then obviously made them such an elite team defensively, which they completely lost without him this year. And then here, you needed a guy who could bring the sort of insane defensive mentality

of Marcus Smart. And Drew is honestly even a better defensive player, but also bring you more consistent, stabilizing value offensively, not take you out of rhythm with bad shots, make 40 plus percent of his catch and shoot threes, cut as he has, rebound on the offensive glass as he has. And he's done that. He's helped resolve issues in both these spots. He's just the definition of a winning basketball player.

And he's a guy who, if I remember correctly, he's only been an all-star twice, but has always been the default answer for who's the most underrated player in basketball, Drew Holiday. Who's the best perimeter defender in basketball, Drew Holiday. And now he shows you his offensive value in a reduced role. And it's just a fantastic run for him. I'm so happy for the guy and the success that he's had in the late stages of his career. And he's still going.

He got his extension this year. Like he's going to continue to be a very, very impactful basketball player and pivotal to this team trying to win more championships. 100%. And I mean, he's like a dream number three with everything that he does, man. Like you can't. And he's so talented. Like all of those years where he's painted in that role, you know, it just made it better, right? where he's having to outperform himself and go above expectations.

It's molded him into this. And I don't think, I think Milwaukee took him for granted. I think they accredited a lot of their defense to, you know, just Janice and Brooke and that drop. And I think they took him for granted. He comes to Boston here. And really, like, I think you have to emphasize that. That's what makes this thing work, man.

Again, we keep talking about this collective here in Boston. It's the Boston defense that wins in this thing, and it's how they can play. Nobody else can play ball like this. where you can just effortlessly switch everybody, where everybody can put the rock on the floor. Everybody can shoot. Everybody can get down to the hole, man.

Shout out, Orford, dude. He's attacking closeouts and going to dudes chest. Everybody can be in the dunker spot, Logan. Your guards can sit in the dunker spot, and they're effective there. And your centers are 40% three-point shooters. It's insane. And there's no answer to it.

There's no weak point that they can attack, man. There's nothing to exploit. when your answer offensively is to try to exploit Derek White. Sorry, man, you don't have any answers. Like, he is such a perfect weapon, man. And I'm glad he can come out here and do this, man, because he's so much better a player. Like, I think he could be a number two at this point.

If you wanted to, I don't know how great that team is, but this role he's in is it's a dream scenario, man. And you talk about this on office. He's your number five offensively, like when you're at full strength. He's averaging 13 points per game. That's a luxury. That's the perfect situation for Drew at this stage in his career. Yeah, I mean, this has just

been a master class in so many ways. You bring up the Marcus Smart thing. Like, think about that team that Boston went to. I think they were early. I think, I don't know if that year that Boston was ever going to be ready to win the title, right? They were very talented. They had a great defensive culture. That team's got Robert

Williams out there playing a lot of minutes. And shout out Rob, like he's a good defender, but again, limited in other ways where you can exploit something. He can't shoot the ball. You're just going to sag off of him. It's going to be a little more crowded driving into paints. Marcus, smart. Oh, my gosh, man. I hate thinking about that series. Like him is your lead decision maker and like you're going. All right, man. Marcus, you got to go run offense for us for a little bit because Tatum and Brown can't handle the ball. There's no weak points here, man. And also, the last guy, I want to give a shout out to Boston,

too. Shout out Sam Houser. Yeah, man. Wow. He made me eat crow. Dude, he made me. sure did. Houser of Masterclass. We had a clip of the things you were saying about Sam Houser. I think we might have to. I will not quite like that. I called Sam Houser a bum verbatim. He played great defense of Lula.

I might have called him a hockey or a cracker. I don't know. We're going to have to rewind the tape. Sam Houser played his ass off in this game, rebounding, defending, shooting the pill. He just does a lot of great role player stuff. And I'll give him credit, too. do like he's not a like lucca got his but it's like lucca's going to get his on 90% of guys who guard him

right like the way he held up in that matchup the effort plays the activity the shooting the high IQ stuff shout out sim hauser man he's a really good role player and i was completely wrong this is a great basketball team and it's again that is just what i want to hammer home i don't want to beat a dead horse here but it is everybody it is all hands on deck and that's why it's something beautiful man it's something that i've come to realize that it's an endearing quality about Boston, man. It's not about, it feels like a football mentality at some point where it's all hands on deck, man.

It's all my dogs in the middle. We all got to work and we're all going to work to accomplish this. I don't care who gets the credit. Did we win? Boston did that. And I got to tip my cap to him, man. And I got to tip my cap to Sam Houser, man. I was saying some, yeah, some frankly slanderous things about that young man.

He's a much better basketball player than I've painted him to be during these playoffs. Terrible. If he wanted to see you in court, I would gladly be his lawyer. Sam, you have my number, man. Let's make this thing happen. Let's bleed Logan Camden Drive for every last cent that he's worth the bastard, all the things that he's said about you over the years. Sammy Houser, Lil Sammy Houser, sleeper for finals MVP?

Was he snubbed? Listen, man. Pretty damn good series from a white boy of the year. Honorable mentioned Sam Houser. 8.2 points per game in about 15 minutes on 74% true shooting. A little bit inflated by some of the garbage time stuff that he did in game four, but he was consistently really good in this series. Game four was by far his roughest game defensively,

but like in games one, three, and five, he hits multiple threes for you and he holds up pretty well defensively. And this game, like the effort plays, the offensive rebounds, the deflections. He was just everywhere. And I want to give a shout out to Derek White as well, man, because the difference between Derek White two years ago to Derek White today is just absolutely massive. In the 2022 finals run, he was eight points per game on 36% from the field, 31% from three. Like that was particularly a rough run from him offensively.

Over the course of this run, he's 17, 4 and 4 on 40% from deep. Like his emergence as a top 50 player has just been yet another. master stroke of this Celtics organization. Again, they drafted brilliant talent with Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum. They traded for an undervalued great talent in Derek White, who they developed to be significantly better than what he was when they traded for him. And then they added two outright stars this past off season to put them over the top, to bring the more defensive personnel, to bring the more offensive skill in shot making and versatility. It's just not that surprising. Like they were going to

get this done eventually. I thought the Nuggets could be the team that would give them the best run for their money. I picked the Nuggets to beat them going into this, but there was never any question. The Boston Celtics were going to be the team representing the East. And once you got to this matchup against the Mavs, I felt that the talent deficit was just too overwhelming. We are going to take a quick break. And then on the other side, we will talk about the Mav side of this where things went wrong for them after some quick words from Draft Kings. We are this close to crowning and NBA champ. And with the action heating up on the court, it's even hotter at Draft King's Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA. And Draft King Sportsbook has you covered

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And I'm C.J. Toledano and our podcast Point Game, is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level

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Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm George Adano. You might know me as that loud guy who yells out, help on the internet. Help! Somebody! Please!

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Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. So there are some more Celtics points that I want to hit on. We're not done with giving the Celtics their props. They're the NBA champions, after all. We might as well celebrate them. But Logan, of course, the Dallas Mavericks fall short. And they fall a good bit short.

It's sort of like Logan Camden attempting to dunk. Ha ha, ha, could you imagine? Sorry, man. Luca Donchage, of course, is at the front of that. He falls short in this one. how would you grade his performance in this series? It's a good question. I think I'd give Luca a B minus C plus.

Oh, generous. Though he does fall really flat. Or just a Trophy rating. Sad. Sad to see from Logan. No, I'm just kidding. Sorry. Also, man, me, dunking, bro.

I'm not even, I guess it is a good comp. I'm not even close. That's what I was thinking. I was thinking, what's an image of a man falling comically short of something? But I didn't mean to offend you. I might hit the net a little bit, man. I might get there. It sucks because I think Luca's supporting cast is always going to let him short in shooting the basketball.

In the way Boston wanted to load up on Luca and on Kyrie was always going to shoot him in the foot. I just didn't, I think after game one and game two, you kind of realized that like Dallas is going to have to have, you know, torrential shooting. and Kyrie and Luca are going to have to be nails every game. So I cut him a little bit of slack in a few areas. One, again, his limited offensive supporting cast, him struggling with an injury, but I do think Luca falls flat in a few areas, one in a couple of games. And in this one, settling for that perimeter jump shot when it's clearly not hitting. And Luca was off consistently, man, with that three ball.

Shoot 24% from behind the arc. That is a big area where he falls short. I think he did a really poor job in protecting the basketball. He racks up nearly five turnovers per game in these playoffs. In this game specifically, too, there's a lot of possessions where he just gets stripped from behind and never sees the other guy. And the other damning part is the effort and just attentiveness defensively. There are spurts, there are stretches where Luca is locked in and engaged and one-on-one stuff is eating.

But in this game, I mean, he gets picked on. Like, they're involving him in the screening action a bunch. As we mentioned earlier, there's a lot of players where Drew Holiday has him, him on him and realize, oh, man, Luke is just going to ball watch. I can get to an open spot and find an easy look. So, yeah, I think he leaves you hanging in a lot of areas, ball protection, shot selection, shooting from behind the arc in general and general defense. I also want to give Luca props for the insane burden that he has on his shoulders

in generating offense for this team. But, yeah, I mean, it's a letdown. From the level that we got from Luca last series, I'm expecting best player in the world, Luca Donchage. And we didn't get that whatsoever. and specifically the game where he fouls out is going to be a big stain on Luca for a very long time, man. I think that's probably a key game. And this is a key series that Luca's going to wear until he gets over the hump and wins a title.

And it's going to be very hard to do that considering how much better the West is going to get over the following years, man. Denver's not going anywhere. Minnesota's not going anywhere. Oklahoma City is going to get better. Like, you know, it's not just a gimmie that an all-time – and I think Luke is an all-time player that he's a good. gets back to the finals, right? It's not just a given that that's going to happen. Do I expect it to happen? Yes, but it's not guaranteed. So I think it's right in the middle, Carson. There's a lot of areas where he left a lot to be desired, but I also have to recognize the offensive burden that he deals with.

So I give him a C. You think that's too high. You think I'm being generous with that grade. That's a little high, but we've moved down from the B minus. A C I'm more comfortable with. I would consider like a B minus or a B. basically the expectation for Luca. I don't think that Luca was close to the expectation for him in this series. I thought that he clearly had a below average offensive series. He gives you 29 points, 5.5 assists the night on 53% true shooting. So partly by design, the playmaking impact is not nearly what you're used to. But at the same time, when he is seeing more single coverage,

he's not able to capitalize on that with more scoring volume. And the efficiency is really rough. defensively, he was mostly a disaster. And as you mentioned, turns the ball over too much in this series. And in this game, first half, he gives you nine points on four of ten shooting with three turnovers. You knew the series was over then and there. When Jason Tatum was just on another level, then him offensively, you just weren't going

to come back from that. He wasn't assertive enough in the first half of this game in particular. But overall, it just wasn't the series that you needed from him. And there is volatility inherently with his reliance on. on the pull-up threes when he is not going to consistently shoot them at elite efficiency. And that is the story of this postseason for Luca, right? He is extremely hot and cold as a pull-up jump shooter. He's incredible against Minnesota.

He's really, really bad against the Clippers. He's really bad in this series. And against O KC, it's kind of the tale of two halves in that series. Like he started this postseason, the first 10 or still games. He was really, really cold. And so when we talk about the best player in the world conversation, and we talk about the best offensive player conversation, this is why I prefer Nikola Yokic.

And I thought a lot of people were too hasty to proclaim Luca the best player in the world after he had an awesome shot making series against Minnesota and just overlook the issues that he had had offensively in the first two series in this run. And some of the realities of his game, like I do think that Yokic gets you consistently a higher shot quality because of his play style, his ability to play this overwhelming bully ball out of the post, his insane paint touch, which is unmatched, makes him less reliant on his jumper where even when his three-point shot was ice cold in this playoff run, it's just a difference in volume. And he has such an overwhelming ability to score in the

paint that he still gives you significantly better efficiency and also is scoring at like 29 a game in this playoff run. And the offensive impact beyond that is just always more multifaceted with Yokic, the elite screening, the elite offensive rebounding, a bit more offball movement, some more of that quick ball movement within the flow of an offense and just the fact that he's never going to force the issue and he's a better pure passer. So you're just getting a more overwhelmingly great shot quality with him. I do think again, people got a bit carried away with that conversation. Luken to me is a top three player, but he didn't play up to expectations in this series. And when we look at where he has to improve, obviously the defensive

side of the ball, mostly he was fine throughout this playoff run, but it was really brutal through the first three games of this series. His inability to guard Jalen and Jason on an island was one thing, but the lapses in focus were equally, if not more, brutal. And you just can't have those going forward, especially in the NBA finals. Conditioning, I think, is a factor to him holding up on the defensive end. And he carries an overwhelming offensive load. But that's going to be the reality for the foreseeable future.

He has to be able to at least compete defensively. And I also think that the way that he conducts himself, not being rattled by officiating, not blaming officiating, not losing his cool. I want to just see him be more consistently level-headed. And I thought that to his credit, he snapped into shape in game four. He snapped into shape in game five. We saw it after game four against O KC when he went off the rails. He snapped into shape for the last two games of that series, but he's got to be consistent there. And I would like to see him overall just a bit more consistently getting into that pain. And I think that part

of that could be his knee bothering him throughout his playoff run. I also think it's a trend that we saw even before he suffered that injury in the Clipper series. And it's also just a trend of his game. Like Luca has become increasingly reliant on pull-up jumpers and he's gotten better at them. But he's still to me at his best when he is in the paint as a score and a playmaker. And I thought that he was great finishing in the paint in this series. Again, was the jump shooting that killed him.

So the great question Theo asked, friend of the show, shout out. I would give him either a C minus or a D plus. I think that he had to be significantly, significantly better than this for the Mazz to ever have a chance to win this series. And this doesn't change my big picture outlook on Luca. I still feel very similarly about him to the way that I felt going into this series. And I do think he'll be back. I do think he'll be better. But this was uneniable a letdown.

And Dallas never had as much talent. So on paper, they were always going to be the underdogs. If they were going to win, it was because Luca and Kyrie were going to have to be overwhelming. Luca fell short of that, and Kyrie also, Logan, certainly fell short of that. Yeah, I'm wondering if we give Kyrie an F or a D where Kyrie grades out on this. Guy's probably a D minus, I would say. Yeah, he gives you sub-20 a night on 41, 28 splits, 48% true shooting. And he's just got to be better.

The one area I'll cut Kyrie slack. And what is so frustrating about him is it's like his inability to, Get in rhythm if he's struggling. One thing that was so consistent about Kyrie is like if his shot is going early, Kyrie has this like avalanche effect where he sees it go through the hoop. And this is true of a lot of hoopers too, where you get two or three going. And it's like, all I'm cooking this game. And consistently through these playoffs and in the finals it felt like if Kyrie's shot was falling early,

he was going to have it. And if it wasn't, it wasn't going to turn around. And that's how it felt in this one too. Kyrie gets to all of his looks. And that's what's so frustrating about this game is like, I didn't hate Kyrie's shot selection ever. I didn't hate the looks that Kyrie got to. I actually liked Kyrie's process.

I thought his decision making was solid. I thought the way he worked to get to his looks was great. He was just missing. And that's a reality of being a tough shot maker. Like he gets a couple of open threes in this game. This is him. He gets open threes throughout the early part, you know, the first four days.

games. He's missing them. He has one good game where he's on from behind the arc. And then in this game and a lot of others, point blank layups that he's making. There's one in this one where he gets to his spot, little lefty layup right out of the rim, and he just never gets it going. And it's like, that's just a reality of who he is as a player, right? Nothing's ever going to come easy to these guys who get tough buckets. And for Kyrie Irving, who isn't what he once was athletically, isn't what he once was in terms of quickness and shiftiness. And, you know, it's not drastic from Pete Kyrie, but it is older Kyrie. And so this is just the reality of him as a player.

And this is a really tough team to go up against defensively. When you're going up against two of the best defensive guards in basketball, that doesn't change that he had to be better. And it doesn't change the fact that I would give him probably a D minus or an F. It sucks for him, man. I didn't hate his. It wasn't a IQ thing. You know, it wasn't a decision-making thing.

It was just him not his. getting his shot. And that's life is a tough shot maker for Kyrie Irving, man. And this is a really tough defense to get matched up against. It doesn't change the fact that he completely underwhelmed and didn't give Luca the support he needed. Luca didn't give Kyrie what he needed. Kyrie didn't give Luke what he needed. It's really a disappointing, disappointing finals from both of these guys when, you know, we saw what they could do at their peak against Minnesota, man. And just seems like they blew their wad. Neither of these guys played anywhere close to expectation in this series.

No, and Kyrie is the worst offender of the two. He was really, really disappointing. The efficiency is just brutal. And I said that I thought that these two were at the highest peak of a collective backcourt that we've seen. And a large reason for that was the self-creation, the ability to create such high quality shots for themselves, regardless of matchup. And the shot making is a huge part of that.

The shot making largely failed both of them in this season. series, the ability of a guy like Luca to pressure the rim is also an advantage, but also comparing them to the other contender, which is Stefan Clay, I thought that the gap between Kyrie and Clay was legitimate. And a lot of that is the self-creation. It is the overwhelming shot making you normally get from Kyrie. I mean, he is still pretty damn quick, dude. He's had a lot of incredible moments with his quickness getting downhill in these playoffs.

He just sucked in the series. I think more than anything, his jumper just was not what it needed to be. I didn't hate his shot quality. He really struggled to score off of switches, though. There was never really a mismatch for Kyrie in this series. The best looks that he got were against KP out of drop, and he just missed a lot of those open pull-up threes. And I think the collective size of this defense was really a challenge for him.

He was blocked eight times in this series. So your foundation as a team required that he be exceptional. He just was not even close to that. And props to Boston again for guarding both these dudes straight up, not conceding advantages to the role. players like an OKC had to and still limiting their individual scoring production. Dallas never stood a chance with Kyrie and Luca at this level. They're just way less talented.

And I'm not sure that there's much more for us to say about Dallas's role players on that front. Like did they have some disappointing shooting performances in games one through three? Absolutely. Dudes missed some wide open shots. But nothing really shocking. Like Boston had clearly coming into this series, five of the seven best players by far that held up Dallas just has more limited guys they have more limited offensive personnel

and Boston had the game plan to take away their easy shots I completely agree I do think it brings up an interesting question for we'll get more in depth as the off season goes along but I was thinking about one clear thing to me about this Dallas playoff run is the fact that they do need a third star so to speak or you know a third like consistent offensive creator, you know, just a guy who puts a little more pressure on the defense. Ideally, a two-way guy. I haven't looked at the contract situation for this team, so I don't even know if this is feasible via sign and trade or via outright and free agency. What do you think about like Paul George to Dallas alongside Luca and Kyrie? I would like it. I'm trying to think about how they would make it happen. You'd have to move Tim Hardaway, Jr. would have to be a

sign and trade. They certainly can't sign them outright. You'd have to move your other mid-sized contracts like a Josh Green. You'd have to move probably Maxi Kleba. Those are some of their more mobile mid-sized contracts that don't require them giving up PJ Washington or Daniel Gafford, who I think you want to hold on to. And then you'd have to attach some draft assets to that because I don't think that there's a whole ton of intrigue and like three decent role players for the clippers and the maths don't really have that much draft capital to dish out. Let me know that they have the guns to make something like that happen. Like I think they only have one or two more tradable firsts.

Let me rephrase this question then. Do you think Dallas needs a player of PG's Calais? or as their third guy to win the title. Like what kind of asset, what kind of players do they need to acquire to put them over the top? Or do you even think that's possible? You know, is a player like that attainable in this offseason? Or there are moves available that you think could make Dallas a legitimate title contender or change their standing in the West?

I think it's highly unlikely that they're able to pull off something really splashy. the rumors this regular season were OG or Pascal C. Occam, I think OG would have been perfect here, but I don't think you can be upset about getting PJ Washington and Daniel Gafford. Like I think in the aggregate, those guys brought you great value. All you had to do was trade two firsts and you got two seconds back in the PJ trade. And like Seth Curry, Grant Williams, you aren't losing sleep over trading any of these guys away. But you have to understand the predicament that Dallas started it.

They let Jalen Brunson walk. And then they had to trade, although it wasn't like a really tough value move for Kyrie. They were able to buy low on him. Still, you're giving up DFS. You're giving up draft capital, giving up Spencer Dinwiddie. You're giving up some of your few remaining assets. And then even after that, you were 8 and 12 down the stretch last season with Kyrie on the floor. You missed the play in to turn that into drafting Derek lively 12.

Amazing value pick. Getting Derek Jones Jr. on the minimum. amazing signing, getting PJ Washington and Daniel Gafford. Like those are four home runs right there. They did the best job they reasonably could have without getting some sort of like star. Like in terms of pure role player improvement, that doesn't happen over one off season. I want to give Dallas the utmost credit for that and keep that in perspective. They don't necessarily have a lot of margin to easily improve here.

But I do think they're going to be really good next year. They're going to be behind Denver. They're going to be behind OK. C pretty clearly to me. Those are just more talented basketball teams. And I do think O KC will improve this offseason because they have crazy assets. But if you're able to just be really good and then you say, all right, Kyrie, want to stick it out with us? Well, I guess you can make an assessment after next year if you're close enough as a basketball team.

But that's what I want to keep in perspective. We have this sort of tendency to really harshly judge moves with hindsight, right? The Sons, why did they trade for Bradley Beal? Well, they had Chris Paul, who was a negative asset. We thought they might cut the guy. They were in a bad situation. Dallas was in a bad situation, and I love the moves that they made. And I still think they have come so, so far from where they would have been

if they hadn't nailed the role player moves, gotten Kyrie for the value that they did. Overall, if I'm a mass fan, I'm still very happy when I consider where you could have, and very likely would have otherwise been. Yeah, it's a great point. And I mean, there were portions. I don't lose sight of this. You mentioned that 8 and 12 stretch where, you know, in the first run with Kyrie on this team, they missed the play in.

The conversation after that was, well, damn, man, is Dallas going to run the risk of losing Luca Donchage if they missed the playoffs again this year? And now it gives him, you know, a little more hope and maybe a little more incentive of sticking around and saying, hey, you know, this is going to work. There's something that I can work with here where we can be, you know, really competitive. So I think you're right, though. I don't think we should look at this as a, you know, a failure. And we also have a tendency to, Carson, to look at this, not just in hindsight, but in the terms of, oh, man, if you didn't win the title, this season was a failure. This season was no means of failure for Dallas.

Like, huge success for Dallas. Yeah, like, you know, we have this win or lose, you know, the Ricky Bobby, if you're not first, you're last, you know, and that just isn't the case. Ultimately, 29 teams have to go to Cancun. It's just a reality of basketball, man. They got to get the boot. Only one team can hoist the trophy. They're on the latest light.

They're already there, man. I saw some dude posted at halftime that the Mavs were there, man. Yeah, I don't think this is a failure, but I also do think that they're going to be hard pressed to really make tangible improvements. So I think it's probably going to be in-house progress is what we look at next season for this team really making jumps. And the two guys I would point to are Josh Green. I really think what we got out of Josh Green was encouraging and lively.

Like I'm not, I know some people after he hit one corner three, we're like, all right, man, look, if lively starts splashing corner three, so it's over, dude, this breaks the game. I don't expect lively to become like an elite floor space or anything, but I do think there's a higher level there. And really, too, well, it's also a story about this. Carson, I know we talked about the Raptors last time we brought up this comp. It is so hard, not only to make the right moves to give yourself a competitive right. It's so hard to get that team to play great basketball within the, what, two-month span that you have post-trade deadline to get up the championship level. That's insane that this team in the span of two months turned around and became not only competitive. They went to the finals.

I don't know another team outside. And again, Toronto kind of had their conglomerate, right? They get Mark Gassal. I can't remember another team that had this many trade deadlines. line moves that was this successful immediately afterwards. You know, I don't know if you want to point to like the 2018 calves. They've got the best player maybe ever on their team, right? Yeah.

That too is also a historic precedent that you just don't see in basketball. No, and the calves didn't even make good moves. They just had LeBron and the East sucked. And so they still got there. No, it's one move. Like that's the historical precedent. In 1995, the Rockets had Clyde midway through the season. And in 2004, the Pistons ad sheet.

In 2008, the Lakers had Pagasol to reach the finals that year. You don't see multiple key moves. And it's just two with PJ and Gafford, but still like two of your starters, you acquire midseason. And they come from the worst teams in the league, like having not had to play real meaningful winning basketball. And they immediately embraced all the things that it took to do so. And PJ has his huge moments in the OKC series.

Gafford brings you such consistent, awesome. rim protection. Like shout out to all those dudes. Again, the value propositions that the maps have made have been fantastic. The shitty part is now you're going to lose Derek Jones Jr. In all likelihood. You're probably going to lose Dante Exum, who was another good addition, who I should have given them credit for.

And so I would like to see them still find a way to improve. Like, there's no reason for Tim Hardaway, Jr. to be a Dallas Maverick next year if they can. move him. Like him eating up $16 million, the guy was basically unplayable in the playoffs. I would gladly move off of him. Josh Green, I really like. I don't know that there's that much room for improvement.

I think he kind of does what he does at this point. He's improved as a shooter. He brings you the energy. He brings you the athleticism, the impact defensive plays. I like the guy. But I think that there are potentially just some ways that they could sort of upgrade the THJ role and maybe get somebody who brings more ball handling to add an offensive of Spark. I know that Bogdan Bogdanovich is going to be a target for a whole bunch of people.

I don't know if there's some sort of sign and trade that they could work out there, send THJ back to Atlanta. That's the sort of move that I would like. And yeah, I wish that they had like a really, really awesome 3-Indie wing, right? I wish that they had OG An Anobie. But overall, the debt that they have filled out this roster with, I think is pretty good. It's going to be really hard for them to replicate this. It is because, again, they were able to avoid Denver who would clearly be the hardest matchup. They were able to take advantage of injured clippers, a less mature OKC team that I just think is going to be more playoff experience next year and again will be improved as a roster.

And then they just played an awesome series against Minnesota. Like they had a very legit path through the West. I'm not trying to take away from that. But the West is only going to get harder. And I don't think the Mavs have easy avenues to getting better. So it's a great season for them. It's a great run. it's going to be tough to pull off again.

And the biggest thing to me is just like, Kyrie has to sort of reprove his value here because he is your co-foundational piece. And if you're going to commit to him long term when this guy is 32 years old now, you're going to give him another contract. If that's a mistake with Luca, now you have him committed to a guy who's falling off

and you're paying him until he's 37, 38 years old, that's when you are in jeopardy of losing your superstar foundational franchise talent. And that was always the concern with Kyrie. It's just like, is he the right guy? Are you close enough? Overall, I thought the MAZ would be a lot further away than they are right now. So I view that as a success.

Okay. I want to give a little bit more love to Boston because when we were talking about all the dudes, we didn't specifically rain praise upon Al Horford, enough Logan. I have a lot of Al Horford numbers that I'm just going to read out to you. Okay, because to me, there's not a more deserving. dude in the league of winning a ring. Outside of Chris Paul. Chris Paul.

Oh boy. He's played championship basketball since 2005 and he hasn't gotten a ring. I know some people disagree, but what a perfect point guard. But outside of him, Horford's at the top of that list since 07. This dude has been playing winning basketball. He's played in 186 playoff games in his career. Only 13 players top that number in NBA history. And those players have won an average of 4.4 rings.

So Al was way beyond due. for a ring. He has 14 winning seasons in 17 years in the NBA. His teams have been better with him on the floor for 15 consecutive seasons. He is tied. Fifth among active players in career wins with Kevin Durant. He's 12 among all active players in career plus minus. He's one of just 15 centers ever to average five assists a game in a season. One of just 10 centers ever to make 143s in a season.

and he is the only center ever to do both. So that rare blend of playmaking and three point shooting from the five that so many teams are looking for with awesome defense. This guy's made an all defense team and could have made several more. And the longevity is all-time special. He's one of just nine players ever to play 500 plus minutes in a postseason at 37 years or older. And specifically in this series, again, the amazing switchability,

how well he guarded both Kyrie and Luca and the floor space. It was so valuable, not just the raw number from three. A lot of bigs, stretch bigs, are not comfortable shooting from the corners, right? You have your guys who are just above the break shooters. Al was awesome there in the playoffs. He was like 43% from the corners, made a big one tonight, 45% from the corners in the regular season on legit volume, just as so many complimentary things and has been doing it for his whole career.

Even when he was a star, he was like the winning impact, not necessarily big stats guy sort of star. So the question that we've been hearing for Al Horford for some time is, is he a Hall of Famer? What do you think, Logan? Yes. Yes. Love it.

I mean, love it. Not that the bar is, you know, super high for the basketball Hall of Fame, but also I don't really think this would have bearing on if Al was going to get in there. I think he's a lock now, but I don't know, I think he's going to get in regardless. Also, one, I want to give you some extra props on Al Horford, because a long time ago when he was stationed in Oklahoma City, a lot of people wrote him off as washed a negative asset. The guy carrying the Al Horford flag was our very own Carson Breber saying,

hey, this guy would be a great role player on a good basketball team. And he goes to a good basketball team and he keeps providing that impact. And I underestimated him in this run, though. I want to be clear about that. I thought he was going to be like the relative weak point defensively. and he was as strong a point as any. So shout out Big Al. I thought so, too.

Coming into this, he had the second most career playoff games without a title. That is gone. He has ringed up now. And also, this is a crazy step. Minimum 2 NBA final series. Al Orford is the best three-point shooter by percentage in NBA finals history. Let's go. I wonder who else is on the short list there.

Danny Green probably fell off, but he certainly would have been there for the same. spurs years. I think Mike Miller's too. I thought you were going to say Mike McGee and I was going to say, yeah, he was a sharpshooter. Head of his time, Mike McGee. Showtime Lakers' role player legend. I'm checking

to see who else is on this. Oh, our boy, oh no, I only played in one. I was going to say Chris Paul. Shane Badiye, Rick Sam Hauser. Yeah, buddy. Yeah, buddy. I can't do this show anymore. Get ready to learn Chinese, Logan, Camden. We're sending you to the Chinese

Basketball Media Association. You're going to cover Jimmer. I can't competently evaluate white basketball talent. Bro has a condition. I just can't bring myself to like white basketball players. Something about them. That's something to unpack it another time. Anything else you want to say about Al Horford in the Hall of Fame?

Are you just going to talk about white dudes? I'm actually shocked Sam Allison on the list, like eight minutes per game. No, dude, I mean, what I think is really remarkable about Al Horford and guys like that, like Brooke Lopez, too, is how they adapted, right? When you think about Prime Al Horford, he's a great player, always has been, right? I mean, he won a national title at Florida, him and Joe Kim Noah and Corey Brewer and the boys, right? Most states, that was a great basketball team then, and he was a winner then. Always great, out of the pick and roll, always great defensively, always a great rebounder and passer for a big and pretty skilled.

But, you know, the one thing that brought those guys down was their limited floor spacing, and Al could shoot. That's a big misconception, I think, about a lot of centers from the 2000s or, you know, even before that, like, guys couldn't shoot at all. Most guys had a mid-range game, you know, like 15 feet and in. But, you know, people just conflate that to say, oh, if you can't shoot a three-order, you couldn't shoot at all. But it is a hard thing to just add to your bag, especially as an old player. And that's what kept Al around. Like, think about if he had always stayed as he'd be a lumbering guy who's not a great vertical athlete, Like, sure, could be a good defender.

He moves his feet out there. He's gotten better. I think Horford lost weight too over the past couple of years, man, to, like, stay in shape. Right. But he could have had negative value. The thing that kept out being a really impactful player on the court was the threat of him shooting the pill. And last year was ugly, man. That was a bad out-horford run where I cringed when he shot threes.

This is not the case, man. And it's just, it's a testament to him as a player in his career. that he was able to change his game so much and stick around, man. That's not an easy thing to do. And we take it for granted because, you know, it's the modern age. Everybody can shoot. I'll edit that to his bag, man. And that's a big part of the reason why he's getting his ring today.

Absolutely. Al Horford had not attempted more than half a three a game until his 29-year-old season, 2016, his last year in Atlanta. And since then, has consistently been one of the premier stretch bigs in the league. And as you mentioned, it was always a good. mid-range shooter, but just so many winning things that he does for you. And we think about him now as like the ultimate role player, but I don't want to neglect that he was at the very least the co-best player on some really awesome Atlanta teams. Like you're talking about teams winning 50 plus games.

Of course, the most famous being 2015 when they were the best fake team of all time and they won 60 games that year. But like you go before then into the job. Josh Smith and Joe Johnson days, like Al Orford has always contributed to winning, and that goes back to his college career. And when we're talking about the Basketball Hall of Fame, Logan, like it or not, that matters. Your college career absolutely matters.

It's a reason that Bill Bradley is in the Basketball Hall of Fame. International Basketball matters. That's the reason Serenis Marshalonis is in the Hall of Fame. The bar just isn't that high, as you say. And to have Al's longevity to be a five-time All-Star, to have, again, this sort of impact that doesn't even necessarily show up on the statute, And now to have the ring, that just puts a nice button on it. Of course, this is not the defining stretch of Al Horford's career.

He's always had the traits to contribute to a team winning a championship. And now the dudes around him did their jobs. They had enough talent. And Al did his job at a really high level. So I do think he's in the basketball Hall of Fame. With the parameters that we've laid out there, do I wish that the bar were higher? Yeah. But the bar is set now.

Calvin Murphy's in there. Calvin Murphy was cool. He was a one-time All-Star. wasn't nearly as impactful a winning basketball player as Al Horford, nor does he have that college resume. Put Al in and deal with the ramifications. He's not Hall of Very Good. In basketball, he's Hall of Fame.

Any other sport, he'd be Hall of Very Good. This is different. I do want to give props to Joe Missoula, Logan. I think that we've already talked enough about the game plan. But again, just the faith in the personnel and the identity and the principles on both sides of the ball. Awesome. Game management, really good. Just a noticeable improvement from him.

him in year two, really impressive to do this as the youngest coach in basketball. Shout out to that guy, because he's been really consistently quite good in these playoffs. And I just wasn't sure that he would be like a positive for them necessarily in this series. It wasn't like I was like, oh man, Joe Mazzul was going to blow this for them. But he was clearly a positive. I just love the way he communicates with his team. I love the way he keeps these guys on track. They're all the mighted up moments from this series, man.

It's just he keeps the guys locked. He keeps them focused on ball and he's so clearly like, I thought. I judged him really harshly after his first season as a head coach. And I thought that he may be like not ready for the moment. He may be a little too young. Missoula gets it, man. And I think he's a really brilliant mind. I also love him in the press room, man.

That guy is all about some. He's funny. He's hilarious. He's one of the best interviews. Also, timely timeouts do at these playoffs, man. What are the biggest stains from Boston last year? Oh, my God, dude. Can we end a run, Joe? Let's burn one.

Let's burn one. He did it in this run. So much, so many major improvements, but the communication with his two stars and keeping them locked on, hey, do this next time, do this next time. People, we always, you know, for a long time, if we talk about basketball is a game of talent. basketball is a game of matchups and adjustments. And I thought every time, you know, Boston needed to change something or needed to change their focal point, Missoula was there and kept his guys locked.

Missoula has grown so much to me as a head coach and has grown on me as just a person. Like I think I think Missoula is a really good coach. And I don't think that's just because he has an all-time talented basketball team. Again, I think he enhances these guys legitimately. I think he makes them a better team as their coach. for sure. And I think that he has improved their offensive process. Like there were a couple stretches where it broke down in this series. Like the second half of game three was pretty bad.

But overall, this series was always going to be about mismatch hunting, but he kept them committed to that. I thought he did a good job of manipulating the weak points defensively for Dallas where they were on the floor, Kyrie and Luca, getting those guys to be the low man, getting the bigs out in space, just like compromising them deliberately. attacking all of the vulnerabilities on top of a really awesome defensive game playing that they

committed to they never veered off of that even when luca was torching them in game two they did not veer off of that and i thought that they were consistently rewarded for doing so so shout out to big joe he is more than just an enjoyer of cinema he is a very good basketball coach imagine an olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged it's the enhanced games Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? This Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what.

He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid.

He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us every. everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball.

Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Edwin Castro. also known as Castro 1021. And I'm Kunky, his best friend and business manager.

And we've got a new show called the 1021 podcast. I'm taking you behind the scenes on how I became one of Twitch's most popular streamers. We also love sports. And with the World Cup right around the corner, we'll be breaking down the biggest storylines ahead of the big tournament here in the USA. Listen to the 1021 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your. your podcasts.

The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self-discovery, and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well-being, and the practices that help you find clarity, peace, and self-mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming. The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected.

We're becoming more individualized, but we actually meet people in connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Jared Adano. You might know me as that loud guy who yells out,

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And on my new podcast, Hope from a Hippocrat, I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with my sage advice and thoughtful solutions. Sike, I'm a comedian. I'm not qualified to give good advice. Join me and my comedian friends as we riff rant and recommend some of the most legally

dubious advice known to man. If I'm calling you, even if you're on your phone, let it ring twice. One ring is too scary. Oh, cream of chicken suit. Hey, cream. Cream a chicken suit. This is Help from a Hypocrite, the worst advice from the dumbest people you know. Listen to Help from Hypocrite as part of the Mike Coutura podcast network available on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcast. or wherever you get your podcasts. I do want to talk about where this team ranks

among recent NBA champions. And I guess throughout the course of NBA history, we talked about some of the specific company that they've joined. But where do they fall, Logan, for you? If we start since 2000, because we talked about where we thought they'd be if they won this series in five.

We got a question asking exactly that from a fan of viewer who perhaps has some sort of clairvoyance. Now that that's happened, where do you think they fall? Top 10 since 2000 seems about right. For sure. I know. I'm wondering where they, I'm probably taking the 0-1 Lakers.

Oh, probably. Logan, we can drop the probably. I'm probably taking, I just, the inconsistency of J.B. and J. Jason Brown and, damn, can I speak English? Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum. Their inconsistency is this number ones is what brings them down,

but it's rare that you have a collective. I would take Denver over them in recent memory. Okay. There's not many. There's a huge talent gap between a team like that, and like even the, I wonder if I'm taking them over the, I don't think I'm taking the 2014 spurs. I wonder if I'm taking the heedles.

I'm probably taking the heedles just because of LeBron and D. Wade. That's close, though. Like that's what I want to emphasize. I was like the aggregate talent that Boston has, their complete five. A lot of these teams are just star studded at the top. And Boston's got a ton up and down the roster. The other thing with the 2013 heat, which is the best version of that team, is that their role players were better than they'd ever been.

LeBron was the best that he'd been. But D. Wade had really taken a step back because of injuries. And he's only giving you like 16 a night in that run. So they don't have as much of an overwhelming. star factor as 2011. Dway is like a top five player. He's not close to that by 2013. But I think you hit on a lot of the ones that they're in the range of. I would take them over the 2014 spurs, which is an amazing basketball team. But if we're looking at sort of the no superstar mold, I do think that this selfish team is an even better version of it. I do think that

they're even better defensively. And although the spurs offensive process was so consistent in their ball movement, their shooting was so excellent. This Boston offense to me is just a bit more talented. They have more absolute weapons on the floor. They have the athletes, again, to attack mismatches like crazy. They have the ball handling for a bunch of different dudes to break you down off the bounce. KP is a special sort of weapon. So I would lean them in that matchup.

The ones who are clearly above them are the 2000-0-2 Lakers and the 2017 and 2018 Warriors. I think those are the teams that are just too talented, too dominant. They have separated, no matter what the numbers may say. versus the 08 Celtics dude. That's a close one. And of course it's different eras. So we are sort of viewing it in terms of just the dominance within their era. That team did struggle some in the postseason.

They played a lot of really competitive series. And I think the reason for that is just a lack of consistent elite offensive talent compared to this team. That 08 Celtics team was better defensively. I don't know that they were better by a wide enough margin to offset the offensive gap. that this team does have. And that's another team that didn't necessarily have like that offensive, very consistent superstar, but this team has more aggregate talent,

more consistent, awesome shooting, more versatile supporting gas guys. And then you get to 2013 and it's like, do you just trust LeBron being at that sort of overwhelming level to guide you past? I probably do. I probably would take the 2013 heat. But I think I'm taking this team over the,

2014 spurs. I think I'm taking them over the 08 Celtics, but that one is really close. And the nuggets of last year are also really close. There's no doubt that Boston is a better regular season team than the Nuggets. In terms of the playoffs, I do think the Nuggets had a more consistent floor. The Nuggets never, ever, ever could have lost a game by 40 like the Celtics didn't

game for and even down KP. Like the offensive formula for Denver was just so rock solid with Jamal. playing at that level. Yokic was going through everybody. It's to me the best offensive postseason we've ever seen from an individual guy. But there is superior defensive talent here. That one is a little bit easier to just directly match up, though. And I think that Boston would really, really, really struggle with Yokic.

I just don't think that they have the front line. The switchability that makes them so great does not work against Nikol Yokic. KP really can't defend Yokic. he's not physical enough as a post defender. He's not good enough as a pure rebounder to keep him off the offensive glass enough. And that nugget seemed to me ultimately was better than this year's because of Bruce Brown. And because Jamal was at a completely different level. MPJ was better in that run than he was because of just how bad he was in that Minnesota series.

That one is really, really close, dude. I'm conflicted. Boston's more talented. Boston's the more dominant regular season team. I guess I'll give Boston the edge because of that. But I think that the matchup would be a challenge for them. So they're like to me, just outside the top five in terms of like if we're counting the individual iterations of these great teams like the Lakers, like the Warriors. But if we're viewing the Lakers from 2002 as one entity, same for the Warriors when they repeat in 17 and 18, then I think that these Celtics are a top five.

team of this century. And I do think they're a top 20 champion ever. Damn. I mean, no, Annette, I'm going to assume you're going to reject all these teams. Let me throw four more as you rapid fire. Okay. 2020 Lakers versus this team. This team just has way more firepower. LeBron and AD would be the two best players on the floor in that series. And that is what's challenging about this team.

When we're comparing them to these other great champions, almost all of them were more battle tested. But I don't know. I just think the margins with this Boston team were so large that like I don't want to this credit, the dominance of this run. I think you have to understand the context. Like, it's not the same as the 2001 Lakers sweeping three straight 50 win teams out west. But it is still really, really impressive.

So, yes, I would take the South East team. 2019 Raptors. I would take the Celtic team. Kauai would be the best player on the floor. That team also was very complete. But there's a different level of offensive dynamism that you're getting from Derek White and Drew Holidays are fourth and fifth options versus Danny Green and Sergi Baca.

There were a lot of really good players on that team, but I think the Celtics top six is still definitely stronger. 2016 calves. 2016 calves are tough because they beat the Warriors, which is obviously insane. But I do think some crazy things had to go wrong for that happen to the Warriors, such as Steph being hurt, Bogit being. being hurt, Harrison Barnes shitting himself, Dramon getting suspended. Again, that's a level from LeBron that is just like crazy hard to deny.

And Kyrie was awesome in that run. But I think I would probably lean the overwhelming talent of the Celtics. But part of what's interesting is like, how do they follow this up next year? Because I do think that that will still lend some perspective not to like, okay, are they a legit champ or not? There's no question they're a legit champ. But when we're talking about putting them in these conversations that their talent would indicate, their statistical resume would indicate in both the regular season and the playoffs,

it could provide some perspective on exactly where they fall because they're running it back, man. They're running it back with the same damn team. They have all these dudes in place and that's scary for the league. Do you disagree with any of those? I do think that the two strongest champions sense the Warriors. If we just put it in this like era of parity perspective are pretty clearly, last year's Nuggets and this year's Celtics to me. Yeah, I think the biggest thing is the overwhelming offensive talent.

I also was thinking about like 2011 Dallas in terms of like really good role players along with the star, but it's a different game. Like I think that's what's important to emphasize here is like, I mean, Celtics have what, the highest offensive rating ever during this regular season. Like it's, again, I know we're comparing it's different areas. So you have to compare them relative. do they played but there's a different level of dominance and there's a difference level of offensive and defensive ease man uh they're up there for sure but that that's the thing and

i think you had on a big key too man can they come back next year and can they just roll through the east again can they dominate the finals i think it gives them a edge and i think it gives i think it's going to give tatem and brown like even more confidence in themselves maybe they didn't have it because they don't have the hallmark of a champion yet but i think wearing that I think they're going to defend it with honor. And like you said, dude, everybody's under contract. I would anticipate Boston. I would frankly be shocked if Boston wasn't back here next year.

Yeah, I would be too. There are teams that have opportunity to improve that have some great foundational pieces in place. The Sixers, if they do out of Paul George, that's a pretty awesome big three that they would have. The Knicks, maybe just running it back at full strength. You have your questions about Julius Randall, but they have the physicality to match up. have the depth. They have now two offensive stars to deal with their awesome role players and rebounding and all that. Like those are the sort of teams who'd have a puncher's chance, but there's nobody who heading into next year is going to look Boston in the eye out east and

say we have as much talent. And even out west, it's probably not going to be we have as much talent as you one to one because they were the most talented team this year. And then that was never the question. The question was, okay, will the gap in that like superstar, quotient come back because I've seen a conversation about like if the Celtics are a super team I don't think they are I think they're a super talented team hey oh but a super team to me means that you are talking about multiple top 10 players on one basketball team and that's not what the Celtics are the Celtics are five top 50 players and one Al Horford who is awesome that's just like an incredibly constructed basketball team you wouldn't call the O4 Pistons a super team you

wouldn't call the 2014 spurs a super team. And while the Celtics are more talented than even those teams, that's the closest thing that you would find to that sort of mold, right? Though four all-star caliber players, in 2006, they literally had four all-stars, but you wouldn't consider them a super team because none of those guys are top 10 players. In the Celtics case, none of those guys are top five players, certainly not multiple of them in that sort of top 10 legit superstar range. So what's the vibe for next year, Logan?

Do you think the Celtics are the heavy favorite overall? I know you say you'd be shocked not to see the back here. Well, I think it's the heavy favorite overall. Yeah. It is mostly, honestly, it has a lot to do with the path. I mean, the talent, the reason that a lot of what you said, the talent, the gap between them and the other teams out east, the ease of the path, I think that Boston is going to have.

I think they'll clearly be the number one seed, have the easiest path. And then out west, again, that's a huge part of it. Like there's such a talent discrepancy between the two conferences. whoever comes out of the West, I'm not saying they're not going to be close in talent level. It's just going to be a lot harder for any of those other teams to come out because they're going to be playing much better teams than Boston is going to be facing, right?

Like I can almost pencil in Boston as the Eastern Conference champion again next season. There's not really a team I can do that for out West. And so for that reason, because I expect Boston to be right back here, they probably would be my favorite. I got Denver too. But again, it comes back to the point that Denver's path is going to be so much tougher than Boston's. And so, yeah, there probably are my title favorite. Damn, that sucks to say.

Oh, this guy, this guy in the city of Boston. You know, they should have you drawn and quartered if you ever said. I was expecting. I was expecting that to happen today, man. Yeah. Well, you're lucky, pal, because they're not going to fly all the way out to you until I docks you. And then they will. What were we talking about?

Oh, yeah. favorites for next year. Sorry, I got caught up in the imagery of you being drawn and quartered in the city of Boston. It's very colonialist. It feels like something that could have happened in the early days, you know, maybe out in Plymouth, Mass, right after the witch hunts of Salem. I do think that Boston is kind of the de facto favorite because they have everything in place. Like through this next year, they have all of their core six guys.

And they were this dominant mostly throughout the playoffs without Christoph's porzingis on the floor, which is kind of crazy. Now, I may not pick. Boston when it comes time for our preseason predictions. Maybe I want to get cute. Maybe there's a matchup I really like. Also, we don't know how the offseason is going to go. O KC has the assets.

Denver, if they maintain KCP, if they retain him, then to me, they're right there with Boston. Like, they definitely would have been the best matchup. Again, it's just the Yokage factor. If Jamal is significantly better next year than he was this year, that's the team. That's the team right now that is currently in place that is on Boston. Austin's level, in my opinion. But absolutely, they're going to have a tougher path. So if you're just betting, you just got to think who's going to get eaten by their own conference?

Where is the cannibalism going to take place? It's out west. It's not in the east, even though I do think the east will be a good bit better next year. I did see a question about the 2015 Warriors versus the Celtics, which I think was an interesting question. Harrison Barnes and other champions. Yeah, but Harrison Barnes didn't have an aneurism that year. But that being said, I don't think that the Warriors is a team. were as ready as they would be the next year.

And so that's close. I mean, obviously that was an incredibly dominant regular season team, but I do think that they were a bit more vulnerable. This Boston team is crazy, crazy talented man. And the number of ways that they can win on both sides of the ball really is pretty exceptional. You don't see teams that are, weren't they top two in offensive and defensive rating? Like you don't see that stuff.

Again, they had the net rating of the 2017 Warriors, which was the best of any of those Warriors teams. And then they had a really, really dominant postseason. Like, I want to give props to this Boston team. And I do think they have staying power. I think that we don't want to just go around proclaiming, oh, this is the team that is going to run the league for the foreseeable future. But obviously, Boston is an awesome position to repeat.

I thought that Denver was in really good position to run things back last year, but they lost a valuable piece in Bruce Brown. Boston's not going to lose that. Boston's not losing anything. So the burden is on the rest of the league to improve. And that, of course, will happen throughout this offseason, Logan. Any final thoughts on this series? My final piece on Boston that I want to add on to that is, I mean,

what else could have gone wrong in these playoffs that would have made you, like, hop off the bandwagon for next year? Like, we saw bad Jason Tatum games and the Celtics still won. Like, we saw them without Christop's Porzengis, and they still won. You know, these are all conditional things where if the Celtics lost the NBA finals, we would be bringing all of these things up. But it's like, damn, it didn't even matter.

Like, that's where you can have your concerns, but it didn't even matter in this playoff run. So another thing, bro, I don't know if there's any other champion that you can point at and say, any given game, this guy can be our best player. And it's four or five different dudes. Yeah. Exactly. Like, that's why I would separate Boston and designate them as the, the title favorite, man.

Damn. This is probably the best team we've seen in a while, dude. Now that we've, like, talked all through that mental exercise, this is probably the best champion in some time, man. I think it's a great point that you just made. They didn't hit their ceiling. Like, when did they really hit their ceiling in this run? It didn't happen.

And Jason Tatum can play way better. And that's a great point that friend of the show, Jason Tim, made, I tweeted something early in this game, about how it would be great if Jason Tatum could make a shot. You're welcome Celtics fans. I'm sorry, Mavs fans, but I inspired him to greatness in that second quarter. But absolutely he can be better.

Like, this is what Jason said. I was going to say it myself, but I realized he already said it well. No matter what your opinion of Tatum is, there's no question that he's better than this offensively. And I would expect him to be more consistent next run and to be better as a three-point shooter. KP is an amazing basketball player.

So the bar will be higher next year. the path will be tougher. I can almost guarantee you that, but this team does still have another level they can reach. They shot 36% from deep in these playoffs. That's a little bit worse than I would expect. I would expect them to be up around 38, 39. They're a great, great shooting team.

So they're in an incredible position to replicate their success. Congratulations to the people of Boston. If you do want to put Logan through any sort of medieval torture, just let me know. I will sell him out for nothing more than a people. piece of bread. So you guys just let me know. And seriously, thank you to all of you who have been with us throughout this playoff journey. Thank you to all of you who are longtime fans. Of course, we love you. Thank you to all of you who joined us on YouTube or just on the audio. We really,

really appreciate you guys. This has been so much fun covering this postseason. Really interesting playoffs. I know that maybe the finals were a bit of a letdown on account of one team was way better than the other. But what we saw out West, I thought, was really awesome. And Boston is a really impressive champion overall. And more than anything, Logan, it's just been great talking basketball with you every night. Let's be frank. It's been really fun. So if you guys are wondering, what are these nerds going to do throughout the summer months? Oh my God, there's no more basketball. You guys have no idea what's coming. The summer of greatness is about to be upon you. So stay dialed in. We're bringing trivia like you've never seen it. We're bringing.

like you wouldn't believe. We're doing lists. We're going to dive into historical stuff, stuff that maybe you haven't even thought of. We're going to have a whole bunch of fun. We're going to be ranking things. We're going to be playing games. We're going to be still coming out with three shows a week.

And of course, TikTok, great place to find us throughout the offseason. All of our trivia stuff will be there at NerdSesh. Basically everything gets posted to Instagram and Twitter as well. So follow us across those places for all the short form content that you want throughout the offseason. And of course, we have actual offseason stuff to cover. We have the draft coming up in nine days.

We are going to cover that extensively. Then we have free agency. Not long after that, we're going to cover that extensively. So plenty, plenty of nerdsush content still to come. And we very much hope that you guys are there to enjoy the ride with us. Because as I said, it's going to be the summer of greatness.

And you don't want to miss out on the summer of greatness. It's going to be a white boy summer as well. And so if you're thinking, who's the pick for a white boy of the year, in 2025 starts with white boy summer starts with offseason training and we are going to be dialed into that and everything else so

as always Logan any final words you want to get in there to end the post season that was beautiful man I almost cried also yeah I love you I love you guys thank you guys for tuning in yeah seriously appreciate you guys so with that as always I've been Carson Braber I've been Logan Camden we will see you guys very

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