The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Nerd Sesh - Top 10 Point Guards

Episode Date: July 5, 2024

The nerds rank their top ten active point guards in the NBA! Timestamps 00:00:23 - Honorable Mentions 00:06:21 - Ja Morant 00:18:20 - Tyrese Maxey 00:26:09 - Damian Lillard 00:35:19 - Trae Young 00:47:17 - De’Aaron Fox 00:57:45 - Tyrese Haliburton 01:05:21 - Jalen Brunson 01:13:12 - Stephen Curry 01:20:43 - Shai Gilgeous-Alexander 01:27:37 - Luka Doncic 01:35:19 - Re-visiting Honorable Mentions #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Oh my God. How could he do that? Donate it. Charles Darwin. The nerves is where it's at. Welcome everybody back into nerds session. As always, I'm Carson Brever, and alongside me is Logan Camden.

And today, we are going to be ranking the top 10 point guards in the NBA. This was an agonizing task, Logan. It feels like we always say that when we do lists. These are supposed to be fun. They end up being absolute torture. But I swear this one was extra hard, man. And part of that is the dudes, you have to leave off the list entirely. So before we get into the list, who was your toughest cut?

My toughest omission off this list, Carson, by far, was Cade Cunningham. And Cades are really tough. he's a really tough player to gauge a lot because of his situation in Detroit. He's in one of the worst situations in all of basketball. Detroit has been a bottom five defense every year of Cade's career. In Cates, two healthy seasons, the Pistons have shot 26th and 29th. That's where they've ranked in three-point percentage. And next year is going to be Cade's third coach in three healthy seasons.

Like, it's just really hard to gauge Cade's winning impact and impact on winning basketball games because of his situation. And one interesting stat I found to doing research for this pod, Carson, Kate has the 22nd worst winning percentage in NBA history post-merger. He is 32 in 106 in his career, a winning percentage of 23.2%. And that's what I want to emphasize is it's just, it's tough. It's tough to separate his impact from, you know, his impact individually and team success. And I want to be clear about something too. I put Cade as an honorable mention on this list because I think there are guys that impact winning more. I am

ranking my top 10 point guards right now yes, but I'm also ranking them in terms of a context of where I think they're going to end up at the end of next season, where these guys are going to be. And I think Cade is going to continue to ascend. I think he's going to continue to get any

better. I think he's going to continue to get better. Excuse me. And I really trust his jump shot long term. He shot 48% out of the mid-range last season. He really struggles to finish the rim. Another interesting staff that helped me take Kate off of my list. Kate shot just 55.6% in the restricted area of 236 qualified players. Cade rate 22nd in terms of efficiency in the restricted area. That's minimum two field goal attempts in the restricted area per game. That made him a little easier to take off the list.

That's his major flaw as a player right now, but he's a jumbo-sci. playmaker. I trust his decision making. I trust his jump shot. I think Cade's going to continue to get better and better. And I think next year is going to be a breakout season for Cade. And so that's why it made me hard to leave him off this list. But

I'm confident in my top 10. It made you what to leave him off this list? Confident? What did I say? Not what you said. Kate Cunningham, friend of the show, I saw him in the line on the way to Jungle Cruise at Disneyland. Good guy. I've always been a Cade guy.

I'm wondering if we have a different definition of point guard though just because I feel like no matter how high you are on Cade There are 11 dudes who are pretty clearly above him the position is just so stacked So I'm trying not to really do projecting here for me. It's not about where I think you'll end next year It is basically about where you are right now and there's some little projection involved in that right Okay, might you figure out a fit a little bit better might some shot variants go a little bit more your way than it did this past year but I'm not necessarily banking on like substantial improvements. Like maybe we'll see from Cade, but we haven't seen up to this point. I do think he is a really, really talented young player.

I do think he is somebody who has often gotten disproportionate blame in Detroit. Very good playmaker, but it's just a question of creating easy, seamless offense. And I think regardless of situation, basically everybody else hasn't beat there because they're either a more consistently elite pull-up shooter, they're a more elite playmaker, They're a better athlete who creates a higher shot quality around the rim. Like, Cade's situation makes his life a lot harder. He also doesn't create a lot of layups and super easy shots for himself at this stage. So my toughest cut, Logan, and I have no idea how you're going to react to this,

because again, I'm wondering if we have a different definition of point guard, is Jamal Murray, one of the loves of my life, the man who I own a shirt in his honor. but I just think when you're comparing him to everybody else on this list, all of them are more capable of shouldering the load of a number one. And Jamal really, really struggled on this past playoff run. And it comes down to, with him a question of shot quality. The shot making is sensational. And I do think the shot making is something you can usually bank on.

And he did just have a really rough postseason. But there is the reality that he's not going to create a lot of high quality shots from self at the rim. He's going to trail behind basically everybody on the list in that respect. And he's playing in the most favorable offensive situation that you could dream of, alongside Nico Yokic. There is nowhere that you are going to be better set up to thrive in a two-man game, nowhere where your shot quality should be higher,

and he's still really, really struggled. I understand the calf, but I just think there are guys with more dynamic, athletic advantages that put them at least a tick over Jamal. I thought after last year there was a strong case that he was a top 20 player, certainly played like it in that playoff. run, but I do think we've seen now some of the volatility that comes with his extreme reliance on tough shot making. It's the volatility that has been a reality for him in the regular season. This is a guy who's always prone to having some clunkers throughout the regular season.

And he was just able to play out of his mind in that title run. And he played incredibly well in the bubble as well. But I think that this past run opened my eyes to some of the volatility that is sort of inherent with his play style and some of his limitations. So he is my number 11. Who's your number 10, Logan? In my number 10 spot is Memphis's Jah Morant. And unfortunately last season, we only got to see Jha play nine games.

And this has actually been more of a polarizing take than I expected. I ran this list by some of my friends. And a lot of them thought I was way too low on Jah. Jah has one really special quality. And that is the fact that he is so freaking athletic and get, to the rim basically at will, man. He is a freak athletic talent. And in terms of finishing at the rim, you know, the bevy of ways he can do it, going through guys, finishing with physicality, finishing with finesse, finishing with touch, layups, dunks. He's a special interior

finisher and he generates those shots at a really high rate. The reason he's not higher for me on my list is because I think there are guys that generate easier half-court offense. And And I'm always going to be a little bit concerned about Jha just in terms of his jump shot. This is a smaller sample size from this year. He shot just 24% on jumpers in those nine games that he played. Last season, he shot 33%. He shot 27% out of the mid-range. Last year, he shot 42%.

So I'm encouraged that can be a little bit higher. I mean, the nine-game sample size. We shouldn't be using the nine-game sample size for anything. Yeah. Last season, in the last full season he played, he shot 42%. percent. And Jaws improved there. I want to give him props for that. That's an area where Jaws has grown. In the intermediate mid-range, in the short mid-range, Jaws really grown there. But I think there's just a higher ceiling with other guys because they're just better pull-up jump shooters. Jaws a really

special talent, but I think they're just better half-court engines. And I really value that. That's the only distinction. And it's kind of about where do you come down with that balance, right? Because guys can't generate easy looks at the rim like Jha. They can't create rim pressure. A lot of guys higher than him on this list just can't. They're either past their prime. They just don't have the physical traits to exert pressure on the rim like he does. But they're better jump shooters.

And typically I lean on the side of I would rather have the guy who is a better touch shot maker, who is a better pull-up jump shooter, who is better shooting from behind the arc. Now, I think Jock can improve there. I'm waiting for him to connect because if he figures that out, man, you're looking at a guy who is in a complete half-court offensive engine. You're looking at a complete offensive player

if he figures out the jump shot side of his game. But that is still the significant flaw in Jaws game and why he can't be higher on this list for me. I love him. He is one of the most fun players to watch in basketball or if we just are ranking off of guys who are enjoyable to watch, John might be top five for me. I mean, he is super fun.

But when we are looking at total value, I'm going to hold the jump shot against him. And I am a little bit worried about the post-injury concerns just with the shoulder tear and how that's going to affect him and coming back. But it really is just about the half-court offense and the jump shot. And that's why Jack can't be higher on this list for me. So I have jaw one spot higher than you at number nine. And this to me is the low end for him.

I'm interested to see who you have right above him. Seven through nine are so, so close for me. And that really is the agony of this list. Like the margins are so slim. Jaw obviously has some incredibly special traits on the basketball court. He's a monster in transition. He is one of the absolute best ball handlers in the league. Has that thing on a string with the in and outs and the crosses.

He can do whatever he wants with the ball on his hands. And you pair that with some of the most lethal quickness that we've seen in a long time in this league and some of the most incredible aerial athleticism and acrobatics in terms of his finishing around the rim, in terms of his ability to deliver these mid-air kickout passes and laydown passes. He's just outstanding to watch around the rim. And he was third among all guards and restricted area makes the last year that he did play a full season. He also is quite good in terms of his touch from floater range. He's about 43, 44% there, which isn't super efficient offense in a vacuum,

but it's valuable to be able to knock down those shots out that clip. It's really essential out of pick and roll. He also eats up free throws with the level that he pressures the rim out. He has a free throw rate of about 0.4, which is really high. And he is an awesome passer. Like, he is maybe a step down from the tier one guys, but he has that blend of pressuring the rim at a ridiculous level and being able to make all of those reactive and acrobatic dishes.

But also, he really has improved in terms of his court. mapping, his anticipation, his ability to spot cutters, live dribble passes to those guys, lob passes. He is quite a good on-ball offensive engine. And that rim pressure that he creates will always have value. You are always stressing a defense when you can get to the rim at the rate that he can. And he is fearless about it. And I had a really difficult debate in my mind between him and one other player who was in a pretty

similar archetype and one advantage that Jod does have over anonymous guy who will get to in a minute is just how relentlessly he does weaponize that athleticism. There is nobody who is more willing to just drive over and over and over again and that does put a burden on that defense and that does stress a defense. Some of the limitations for Jod though, he's the least efficient player who we're going to talk about today last season in which he played in full had a true shooting percentage of under 56, which is a couple points below league average. 37 players attempted as many pull-up jumpers as Jha did that year, and he was 36th in effective field goal percentage just above Aunt Edward.

So he is erratic there and generally is just a well below average high-volume pull-up shooter. And he's not somebody who's going to really bring you value away from the ball. When we talk about the most ball-dominate players in the league, sometimes people will be a plop-jaw because there can be this connotation that ball dominance is a negative. And I think people just love Jaws game because he is so fun to watch because he is so electrifying. But he's as ball dominant as a Trey Young, right? They're like equivalent in time of possession.

And I think if you're just evaluating them as on-ball offensive engines, Trey is better. He creates a higher shot quality with his overwhelming pull-up shooting, with the fact that he is just a bit better, a bit more genius as a playmaker. And Jock brings you a little bit of off-ball value with his cutting. But overall, I would say that has a. a sort of minimal impact. He's not doing that at a high volume and he's not comfortable or efficient shooting off the catch. And you mention that he hasn't really capped in a high-end half-court

offense. These last couple years, the Grizzlies offense has only improved by about two points per 100 possessions when he's on the floor compared to when he's off it. And he has let out a 17th percentile half-court offense and a 23rd percentile half-court offense. That's over the last two full seasons. I do think you have to acknowledge the limitations and personnel around him there, the limitations in terms of spot up shooting, and the limitations in terms of creation off the dribble. Like, I don't think that that is close to the ceiling that you do have with job. But is he elite enough? Is he genius enough as an extremely ball dominant player to be inching towards the top five of this list? I personally don't think so. I think that his limitations scoring

outside of the paint, his inefficiency do limit him in those conversations. But the playmaking really is fantastic and it does make him difficult to have down here because it's an edge that he has over a couple of guys above him. But you do have those stretches where he is forcing a few too many pull-up threes, which aren't really good shots for him. Or it's just he's getting to the rim, but he's forcing these really difficult finishes against high-level rim protectors. I'm also not sure if there's a player who's less conducive to being a,

a number two than Jah because of the ball dominance, but with the other ball dominant guys, you're going to get like significantly more three point shooting value, right? Which even if you're not a super willing spot up shooter, just for spacing, that at least makes you a bit more valuable. Jaws is limited in that respect. So he's always going to be a polarizing guy. And I think because his play style is so fun to watch because he's such a crazy athlete, and because the Grizzlies have been quite good, you're going to get a job boost from

some parties. You're going to get people who say, oh, he belongs in MVP conversations, when his individual impact to me has never been at that level of value. I also think there might be some people who have gone too far as Jod attractors now. There were people who were pushing the narrative that they really didn't need Jai out there because of their record without him over the previous couple years. I think there are people who will take his off-the-court stuff into account too much and will imply that that has a bearing on who he is just as a basketball player,

which I don't think it does. Jaws really, really good. The position is just stacked. I think there are dudes who are more great, polished, efficient engines in the half court, and that's why I have him at nine. Yeah, and I think it's important to contextualize why the Grizzlies have been good, too, because I think it's the quarterback attribution thing that we always talk about on this show, man.

It's the star leader, the best player on the team gets all the credit for his team's success, right? So the Grizzlies are great because they're a great. defense. That has been their identity. They've also had, what you can't take for granted, is the fact that they've had a great bench. A couple years ago, right, you had like guys like the Anthony Melton, Kyle Anderson, Tyos Jones. I mean, you're loaded. That is a freaking loaded bench to have. And that's why the Grizzlies have been great. Now, I'm not taking anything away from JAA, but that's what you have to separate to me is Jha is responsible for the offense. And the half-core offense hasn't been that great. And

There are other things that he does, but there are guys who are just better engines to me. And I'm so glad that you hit on the spacing and the ability to be a number two. That malleability, it really does matter to me. One, in terms of floor spacing and what value you do bring off ball, but just in terms of how seamless can you work within the flow of an offense. I don't think Jaws is one of those guys. And I think that can be a similar criticism of Trey Young because he's so ball dominant, right? I don't know if Trey works as a number two because he needs the rock in his hands.

and Tray would at least bring value as a shooter where Jock, I really don't think works, man. Like without the ball, it's really similar to Russell Westbrook in a lot of ways to me. I think John's smarter in terms of his decision-making, right? I don't think he's as erratic as Westbrook was. But that is a knock. And I think people may be shocked at one of the guys that I have above him, but that malleability really is valuable to me in terms of can you play off? ball, can you play on ball? And I think that guys with that, um, archetype who can space the floor

like that are just maybe a little bit more value in terms of ease of winning offense. You make a great point. Historically, the strength of this Memphis team has been its defense. They've only been a top 12 offense once with job. They've been number 15 offense twice. That's the second best offense that they've posted. He's not going to compare to some of these guys in the half court. I don't want to sell short how great he is in transition. how genuinely great he is, and that's been another key part of Memphis's identity. And that identity is changing. We'll see exactly what it looks like this year.

But in the past couple years in which they have been a really good basketball team, it was defense, depth, and pace. And he doesn't have, he hasn't had a good supporting cast alongside him offensively, really ever. So it is worth noting. I do think there are more seamless creators overall, though. Not my guy at number 10, though, who even though I love him, I just would have to see him more proven as a number one to put him above some of these other guys.

I have Tyrese Maxie in my 10 spot, Logan, who I absolutely love, for those who don't know, this guy right here, I will flex this every time I bring this man up if I can. 2020, I said he's the most skilled scoring prospect in the draft. He went 21st overall. Win for me. Had a really strong breakout season, I guess you would say. He was already a really good basketball player,

but took that leap to undeniable stardom, gave you 26, 4 and 6 on 57% true shooting. And when he is on, has one of the most lethal blends of quickness and pull-up shooting in basketball. He's a really effective pick-and-roll operator, a 76th percentile creator there. Expert screen rejecter, just so good at using that shiftyness to get a step on you. Really nice change in pace, 45% on floaters, quite good touch from that intermediate range. and one of his biggest advantages is that he is quite a versatile offensive guard. We saw him play alongside a lead ball handler like James Harden,

and he wasn't quite the player that he is today, but he was super effective in that role. He's an elite spot-up player, 85th percentile, ridiculously good off the catch from deep. He's awesome in transition. It's going to be super effective with his full court speed there. So there is the dynamic of, okay, he could be your number one from the perimeter, he could be your number two very effectively, and he just had an awesome playoff run,

like awesome, awesome, 35 and 7 on 60% true shooting. Some of his limitations. I mentioned that when he's on, he has one of the most lethal blends of quickness in pull-up shooting. He had an inefficient pull-up shooting season, though. He was 44% in terms of effective field goal percentage on pull-up jumpers, which was tied with Ant for the worst out of the top 30 guys in attempts in basketball. Also, when it comes to short,

shouldering the load of a number one. You can have questions about jaw as a number two. But we've seen that he can carry you to respectable heights and even good heights at times. Without Joel and beat on the floor, Tyrese really struggled to produce efficiently this year. 54% true shooting. You felt the lack of really high-end playmaking when he had to carry that sort of burden. And again, when the pull-up shooting is inconsistent, like you just see some of the limitations there because he is a pretty average playmaker.

He's not going to wow you with high-end reads. Definitely one of the weakest playmakers on this list. He was just 35% from mid-range this year as well, which held back some of that pull-up shooting efficiency. So I love the guy. But when you think about those avenues to automatic offense that you need to have if you're going to carry a heavy, heavy load without a top five sort of player alongside you

who consumes massive amounts of defensive attention that make your life easier. Same thing with Jamal Murray, right? If you're a beneficiary of those circumstances, that's the reality. Other guys are working in harder situations to have to produce at the same level or even more so. We can talk about questions for Jha as a number two, but it's pretty undeniable to me that Maxi is a beneficiary of playing alongside a top five player in basketball who consumes overwhelming amounts of defensive attention. It's the same thing I was saying with Jamal Murray playing alongside Nikola Yolkich. That is a clear advantage that those guys have. There are other dudes who have proven that in inferior circumstances,

they can produce at a really high level. And Maxi is not quite one of those guys, in my opinion, at this point. And the lack of high-end playmaking does hold him back in that respect, or super efficient scoring. Like, he's a really, really good number two. If the pull-up jumper is as consistent as I think it can be next year, then I think that he can climb up on this list. but considering that it wasn't quite as consistent as I would have hoped this past year,

and there are many more proven number ones above him, and he is playing in a really favorable situation. I'm going to have him here in my 10 spot. Maxi is the exact guy that I was alluding to when I was talking about Jha and a guy that I had higher on my list. I feel like you're going to push back on this. I have Maxi a few spots higher at number seven. Ooh.

The reason is, is I just really prefer his style of play, and I'll get into it. I have Trey Young below Maxie, too, and I believe in Maxie is a number one. The reason I prefer Maxi is because of that malleability I was talking to. There's a certain level of unselfishness this comes with Maxi where I really trust him to play at a high level off ball. I also trust him to create on ball.

There's a level of efficiency that comes with Maxi, right? Where Trey Young will frustrate me sometimes with his turnovers and trying to do too much. I never really get that feel with Maxi. Even when Embedde was out, right? You referenced that stretch. Worst stretch of his season by far. 264 and 6 on 54% true shooting, still just two turnovers per game.

This entire year, overall, he averaged just 1.7 turnovers per game. Like, he is a stupid, stupid, efficient player. And I was really impressive what he did in the playoffs. And I think you're exactly right, too. I think he benefits from playing with Joel Embed, for sure. But I was super impressed of what he did in these playoffs. man, 30 points, 7 assists, 60% true shooting. He had 1 40 piece. He had 3 30 pieces.

It's that malleability that I prefer. And while you may have questions about Maxie is like your number one de facto guy, I just trust him to fill more versatile roles. And there is an advantage that he has over guys like Trey and Damien Lillard, who is below him as well. I'll go ahead and spoil that. It's his quickness. Like Tyrese is so stupid fast, man. He shot 64% in the restricted area. He can get to those looks. And the difference is the pull-up jump shooting. I'm glad you mentioned it, Carson. I think it's going to balance itself out. I think he's going to bounce back next season. And again, I mentioned that these are more of a projection to me, too. I think Maxxie's going to continue to get even better, man. He has ascended every single year of his career. I think he is going

to get even better. And again, man, it's the efficiency. You may have your questions about him as like your number one guy. Again, I just trust him to play on ball. I trust him to play on ball. I trust him to play off ball. I think he makes great decisions. He's stupid efficient. Yeah, man, I think Maxi's a freaking stud. And it's a little bit counterintuitive to some of these other guys who are like number ones and are proven themselves in these situations. But I just think Maxi's a winner, man. I think Maxie's a really winning basketball player. And so I have him a few spots higher at number seven. It's tough, man. There's the classic dilemma of would you rather have a guy who is more conducive as a number two and maybe the classic floor versus ceiling debate man but it's also like

not just floor versus ceiling because you're talking about a guy who is going to be in an easier role but would you rather have a guy who is better suited for that easier role or a guy who yeah can carry you and can bring you to a higher floor as a number one but how high is that floor really how good of a number one is that guy I love maxie dude I'm not going to lie. I'm going to lose sleep over this entire list. I don't know. I wish that there were a super easy way to evaluate it because if I had a player like

Joelle Embed, yeah, I would rather take Tyrese maxi than a couple of these other guys. I would rather take him than a Jaum Morant. But in a vacuum, I do think the jaw is capable of doing more to carry inferior talent. And I think that the gap there is big enough. We're all give Jaw the edge. But it's not an easy choice. So who is in your number nine spot, Logan? At number nine, I have Damian Lillard, and I struggled, I struggled, man.

Seven through 11 were super tough on this list. Dame has definitely lost a step from where he was, and I am hopeful, I am very hopeful, that a year removed from a really rough time in Damian Lillard's life, we can see improvement, right? This was a really troublesome year for Damien Lillard, and I'm going to cut him some slack. going through a divorce, moving from a place where he has spent his entire career in Portland and going to Milwaukee. It was just really tough. And I think a lot of the stuff he said in quotes and press conferences and stuff, I just don't think Damian Lillard was in the best mental state, right, throughout this entire year. And so I am hopeful that a year removed from that,

we can see a rejuvenated dame, just a Damian Lillard in a better mental state. The one area where I know that Damien Lillard is not going to bounce back, though, is athletically. I think we have definitely seen Dame lose a step in terms of quickness, in terms of athleticism, and I think it's reflected in his efficiency. He just shot 42% from the field. He had a true shooting percentage of 57%. The one value that you're always going to have with Damien Lillard is his shooting. This is one of the greatest shooters in NBA history. If I had to rank him, I think he is top three all time. I think it's Steph, I think it's Clay,

and then I think it's Damien Lillard. That kind of pull-up jump shooting and shooting period, it's going to make Dame's game age gracefully. But there is enough of an athletic gap to me between him and like a maxi, and it made me debate him and Jop. Again, I still think Dame's edge, shooting-wise, gives him the edge over a guy like John Morant, but it's close.

I would hear an argument. We got to see an extended period of Dame without Yannis, and he was still really good. 30 points, 8 assist on 63% for shooting. He was great in these playoffs. 31 points, 5 assists on 64% for his shooting. And I respect how great he can be at his apex. I mean, we saw him take over playoff games still at this age.

Like I said, though, earlier, I am basing this also on the way his career is trending relative to these younger point guards. And I just think it's clear that Dame is on the downward trajectory and these other guys are continuing to ascend. And this position is just loaded, man. Dame versus Jow was by far my toughest dilemma on this list, and I'm still wondering if I should have job of him.

I really value Dames pure shooting, his touch, and what he can provide as a number one and as a number two. Again, I talk about that malleability with Maxi. It's the same with Dame. I can trust Dame to play off ball. trust him to play on ball, and I trust him just to leave my offense out. He's not going to generate as easy looks as some of these other guys, again, because of that athletic gap, but I just really value his shooting and his veteran presence and his

poise and his experience, but the athletic gap is why he can't be higher. If you would ask me this a year ago, man, I might have had Dame top five. Like, Dame was coming up. Yeah, come on. I mean, just the position is still loaded. I don't think you could argue. He wasn't top four. Dan was clearly a top 15 player last year.

He averaged 32 and 7 on 65% true shooting. And the poorly trailblazers were like a 90-something percentile offense with him on the floor. Only seven players in NBA history had done that. Like, I mean, it was ridiculous. Like, if you had asked me this a year ago, Dane would be much higher on this list. But I think it's clear that he is trending in a different direction to these younger guards. But he still brings a ton, a ton of.

value. And again, in comparison to Jha, I just, I like the malleability in the floor spacing that Dame brings me to be a number one or a number two. And he's still one of the greatest shooters in NBA history. That's why, like, even if he continues to decline athletically, I think Dame's game is going to age really, really gracefully. So, first of all, I'm just an agony over this list. I'm sitting back here and I'm reflecting on life, dude. I'm already just a couple names into this list. Like, damn, these are close. We have a lot of tough choices to make. And I particularly agonized between the seven and nine range. I had Dame at nine for a time.

I end up with him at number seven. And he is a tough guy to rank because you mentioned things are not trending the right direction for him career-wise, age-wise, this having been a season in which he did clearly regress. The question is how much of that regression is permanent. How much of it can be healed by improved personal? around him maybe, by an improved fit with Janus coming around, by him just having a better shooting season than he did this past year, I'm cautiously a bit optimistic about that because there's undeniably areas in which Dame regress. Dame is not the player that he was in 2023, not that close. He did not look as quick, which made his offensive game more predictable,

which I do think dinged his efficiency from beyond the arc. Career low percentage of his shots came at the rim, just 19% inside of three feet. True shooting percentage dropped off by over 5%. He had 21 games in which he shot 35% or worse from the field. There was a real volatility to his game this year. And his defense was really poor. Was a weak point even on a list in which there's not a lot of particularly strong defenders. The reasons for optimism, though.

Number one, as you mentioned, he's just one of the greatest shooters that this game has ever seen. I don't know if I would put him top three from beyond the arc period point blank. I think there have been more accurate shooters. Reggie Miller, Ray Allen. You could even say Kyle Corver, right? There's been a number of spot-up guys who are just more consistently going to shoot a really high percentage than Dame. But there's no question that he's one of the two greatest distant shooters that this game has ever seen. And that is still extremely valuable.

And that is where I am just praying that the Milwaukee box can do something to, to remedy their center spot. And just in the interest of transparency, we're recording this a day before for agency. So maybe they went out there and did something. I don't know. But if he had a vertical spacing big, like you just cannot overstate the runway that he creates

with these high pick and rolls. Brooke Lopez, who can only pop is not the dude to take advantage of that. Janus could be, that game could be really dynamic. And I am hopeful that an offseason of those two working together could help develop what should be one of the most unstoppable two-man games we've seen in the history of this league. He also still eats up free throws, which helps his efficiency. And even in this down year, he was a 91st percentile pick and roll creator, that ability to stretch defenses out, that absurd shot making, the runway that he can create for himself,

when he can pull you that far out as we saw in the playoffs. He's not as quick as he used to be, but he can still get himself some easier drives just by pulling you out 30 plus feet to guard the action, made him super efficient, and he's still an 87th percentile spot-up player. That pure shooting does give him off-ball value that you're not going to find in many other places on this list and in the playoffs, just four games, but he balled out.

31 a night on 64% true shooting. It was insane shot-making. So I think in terms of fit, things can only get better. The two-man game, all of his pick-and-roll stuff, can only get more dynamic in Milwaukee. And I do think that he's definitely regressed. But if there is some cause for optimism, it's that one year ago, he was unequivocally a top 15 guy.

And you think about 2022, when he only played about 30 games, so it's different. You don't have a full season sample. But he was really struggling that year. He was really struggling as a shooter. Then he came back, had a career best season. So I'm hopeful that he will be better this year. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that.

And that shooting ability is just so special. it makes him such a potent number two. We know what he's been able to do as a number one just a year ago. Could he do that now? Not in the same way. But the ability to carry an offense out of pick and roll and to also complement another star player so effectively with his shooting ability does make Dame a little bit more appetizing to me than some of these guys

who aren't going to be the most efficient, who aren't going to be the most consistent shooters, who maybe aren't really good offensive number ones anyways. that's why I have him at number seven. But boy, is it close. Man, dude, I'm cut up. I'm cut up about this, man. Yeah, man.

This list is fucked, bro. Why did we do this to ourselves? And spoiler alert, guys, we're not close to done. We've got to do four more positions. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me,

Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok

podcast network on TikTok. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast, Superhuman, documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush go? got to do a little kill. Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have eight on the table right now.

Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Damn.

Man, you've got me rethinking my number eight spot. Okay. At number eight, I have Trey Young. and the only reason I'm debating like Trey and Dame is the, again, the number one slash number two dynamic. Like, Dame is so complimentary when I think Trey has to be your number one. But Trey in a lot of ways, Carson, I feel like has quickly become one of the most underrated point guards in the NBA. We talk about polarizing guys. Like, again, there are some people that think Trey is one of the best point guards on planet Earth,

and there are some guys who think he's chopped liver. I've heard rumors, murmurs out of, like, NBA circles that, you know, some people thought, Dejante Murray was more valuable. Now New Orleans Pelicans, DeJante Murray, I still really value Trey Young. He has led out three top ten offenses. He has led out a number two offense. He's one of the best individual

like offensive engines in basketball, man. The shot quality that he generates for his teammates, the shooting from behind the ark, he's not the most efficient guy. But he's a special, special floor spacer. 26 points, 11 assists on 59% true shoot. shooting. He does come with his issues. He's not a great defender. I think he really struggles to create high quality, easy looks for himself, like just easy, easy shots. There is a lack of

downhill pressure. Carson, he was 144th in restricted area field goal attempts per game for a guy that has the ball in his hands this much. That is an alarmingly low number. And he's also one of the worst high volume at-rim finishers in the league. I mentioned that stat about Cade, where he ranked 22nd out of 236 players. Just two spots above him is Trey Young. He ranks 220th out of 236 players in terms of at-rim efficiency, minimum two attempts per game. So he does come with his flaws. And that is ultimately why Trey can't be like, you know, one of the top five guys to me. The at-rim finishing, the downhill pressure, the defense, the easy shot quality, and it is how ball dominant he is. A couple years ago, this was a hot take at the time just because Tyrese hadn't ascended to where he is now.

I said that I would take Tyrese Halliburton over Trey Young. And some people looked at me like I was crazy, but it was that unselfishness and the ease of team offense that Halliburton creates. And that's what I want to emphasize, right? It's that balance. And it's hard to gauge. Maybe you do prefer Trey's overwhelming ball dominance. dominance. Maybe you prefer his, that style of play, but I don't. And that's why I have Maxie above him. That's why I have guys like Halliburton. I prefer the more unselfish guys who can play off

ball as well. But when I say that, I just don't also want to completely take for granted what Trey can do as your lead number one creator. He's just proven it more than other guys on this list. That's why I think he has to be stamped as a top 10 point guard. But again, I have to recognize those flaws. And that's why he can't be like a top five. point guard to me. But bar none, if you don't have him in your top 10, I really question your top 10. Like I think that Trey in a lot of ways has become really undervalued and underrated in a lot of NBA circles. I agree, dude. It's so funny. The pendulum always seems to swing too far because there was a time where I thought that collectively, it was coming off of that Eastern

Conference finals run mostly. People were a bit too high on Trey. People were talking about him as being like one of the greatest point guards ever, being clearly on that trajectory. The raw production, of course, was overwhelming, but it was like, hey, guys, you know, their offense wasn't really that efficient in this run. Like, a lot of that was actually on the back of their defense. There are some limitations to this overwhelmingly ball dominant style. He wasn't the most efficient in that run or in that season. I think the pendulum has swung way too far, though.

I think people are way too low on Trey at this point. They overwhelmingly focus on the negatives and do not focus on the positives. I have him at number six, and I agonized seven through 10. I mean, I'm still going to lose some sleep over that. I actually don't lose sleep over Trey at 6, and the reason for that is, if you're talking about Maxi versus a John Morant, if you're talking about Maxi versus a Deerrin Fox, if you're talking about Maxi versus a Damian Lillard, whatever, all those guys, then you can get into the debate of, are any of these guys good enough as a number one to where I should prefer

the guy who is better as a number one? But like, what's the ceiling to that compared to a guy who maybe is a more conducive number two? The difference is, trade's proven he can be a number one on great offenses. Like, we're talking about a guy who with very average personnel around him has already produced several elite NBA offenses. The Hawks have been at least an 80th percentile offense with him on the floor for four straight seasons. His offensive on-off has ranked in at least the 93rd percentile in three of those four years. and he pretty much always creates a good shot for you out of pick and roll. He's the best law passer in the NBA.

You mentioned he's not going to be a great at-rim finisher. It doesn't necessarily get super seamless shot quality there, but he's one of the best floater shot makers in basketball, 48% there on crazy high volume. He eats up free throws, draws fouls like crazy out of pick and roll, and you have the pull-up shooting. So overall, he's a really efficient pick-and-roll shot creator, 88th percentile. And he did just have an amazing.

pull-up shooting season. That's one reason that I think I'm a little bit higher on Trey at this point than I was last year when we would have had these conversations. 52% effective field goal percentage and 11 points per game off of pull-up jumpers this past year was really sensational. And the other component is that he's improved enough defensively to where I think he can be a functional part of a good defense. It's not a high bar. Trey is never going to be a plus defender. He's never going to be an average defender. in my opinion. You're talking about a 6-1 dude who is super slight, who's always going to carry a heavy offensive load, but it's improvement from when Trey was like arguably the worst

defensive player in basketball, certainly the worst defensive star in basketball. Now he's just gotten more competitive on that side of the ball. He's found a way to use his hands, his instincts more to be effective. And although I think he got a bit overrated on that side of the ball this year, there's definitely some people who still underrate him and don't acknowledge that improvement when it has happened. And the shock quality that it manufactures, man, for bigs, for shooters, out of pick and roll particularly, is just excellent. And we focus in on his ball dominance.

But again, jaw is super ball dominant, right? Most of these guys are ball dominant basketball players. Is Trey an extreme version of it? Sure. And I do think that that knocks some points for him. But also, he's just better at it than like all of these other guys. He is simply better at man. manufacturing offense for the players around him.

And I'm going to value that. He carries your offense. So when I think about starting a group from scratch, if we just presume average talent, like, yeah, of course I would take Trey above some of the other guys who we're talking about, all of the other guys who we've mentioned up to this point. When I think about who I'd want to pair a young big with, particularly, I would take Trey out of all the dudes outside the top five.

And it's honestly not that close. And that is the fit that I just continue to salivate over Logan. If they got that man of San Antonio, I'm telling you, Trey Young discourse would flip because you talk about he's not an intuitive number two. And he's not. But if he could be your offensive number one with legitimately awesome play finishers and dudes who could compensate for his shortcomings defensively and you could be good on that side of the ball,

there is no reason that you could not win a title with Trey Young as your offensive number one and your second best player overall. And that's something that I'm not confident about saying with the dudes below him. Like Tyrese Maxie, I'm sorry, just as your best offensive player, there's no chance. You're going to be scrapping to be an average offense. Jha, I think you can say the same. Deerrin Fox, I think you can say the same.

Like, Trey is the one dude who has that sort of upside carrying a unit. And I think that a lot of the ragging on him at this point is about differences in perception. You think about how people were talking about him versus Deeran Fox after last year's playoff run when he produced significantly more offense overall. I think they were like equal in scoring, but he's giving you more playmaking. He was actually more efficient in terms of true shooting percentage, facing a better defense with a worse offensive supporting cast. And the takeaway from that was, oh my God, Deeran Fox is like a top 15 player.

This guy's amazing. And it was, yeah, I don't think Trey's top 35. I don't think I want Trey Young on my basketball team. It's perception, man. And it's expectations because he climbed the mountain individually. So quickly, he was getting hyped up so soon. And so now everything he does is measured against that. And people want to see progress.

And if they don't see dramatic progress, while other guys are improving and are probably more fun to watch than Trey as well, those guys always get the benefit of the doubt. Trey always gets the criticism. That is not to say he does not have limitations. And I don't have him in my top five. Biggest limitation? Well, I don't know if it is at this point.

But his defense is a limitation. His pure efficiency as a shot maker is. a limitation. 51.6% effective field goal percentage this past year, which is actually in the same range as a lot of the other guys were talking about Fox and Maxi and Jha. In his playoff career, though, it's only 46%. And that is where what you mentioned, the lack of super easy shot quality for himself, for his teammates, he's always going to spoon feed them great looks. For himself, that can be a bit of an issue. Also, just his shot selection can be frustrating. Sometimes, Tray takes 27 shots, especially in these playoff environments, and some of them are these really

tough off the dribble 3s that, of course, he can make, but are they good shots? Not always. Sometimes they take your offense out of rhythm and can stall it a little bit. I do think that that's a downside, and it can be weird thinking about how you pair him with another back court star. I think with a front court star, with a big, oh my God, he'd be amazing for that guy. But when you're talking about on the dribble creation from the perimeter, Dejonte Murray was always a weird fit. Now, I don't think Dejante is that good personally, and I also think that his inconsistency as a shooter is specifically an issue when you're trying to pair a guy with Trey. But nevertheless, there's not a ton of guards you could put in that backcourt who are stars with Trey, and I would say,

that's an intuitive fit. So, I don't have in my top five for all those reasons, but I do have him at number six, and I think that I have gotten higher on him relative to the consensus, just appreciating what he can do, shouldering that sort of offensive load. and situation is key, man. Atlanta's just not a good basketball team. I mean, they are not close. And if you put him with that dynamic big, I think the ceiling is the roof.

Yeah, I think they should send him to San Antonio. If I could get that deal done, man, I'm throwing everything I can in Atlanta. And Atlanta want him. They're so far away now. Yeah, Atlanta is also having a fire sale. Again, we are recording this, you know, a few days in advance. advance, so I don't know if they've made any additional moves, but you think, they drafted

AJ Griffin in the first round, and they just moved off of him for the 40, like, the 44th pick, a second round draft pick to the Rockets. It's like Atlanta is pivoting into full-on tank mode, it seems, you know, they move off to Jante. I got to think that Trey is going to be another domino that's going to fall unless they think that, I don't know, him and, I just, if I'm Trey, like, trying to win basketball games. I'm not getting any younger. I'm in the prime of my career. I am trying to get out of Dodge, dude. I am trying to go win somewhere, and I hope they can get him to San Antonio. I have already given away my number seven. My number seven is Tyrese Maxie. That is the gentleman. I have one spot ahead. Hold on. I haven't given my number eight. I think that we're

going to have a discrepancy. I would presume he's your number six. And if he is, we can just have the conversation is your number 60 Aaron Fox, Logan. Wow. I'm, God. kind of shocked you have him that low? Eight. It's a difference of two spots. I know, but just Fox below Trey actually is surprising to me. So here's my philosophy on that. It's actually related to what I was just saying about the perspective around their playoff performances.

Fox is so fun to watch, right? I mean, he is this absurdly quick downhill athlete. And specifically in that playoff series against the Warriors, it was like, wow, you're talking about a mid-range shooting clinic. Like, who's not going to love that guy? He plays with energy. It's fun. But then you think about it and it's like, I'm pretty sure that the Hawks also were the better team offense against the better team defense in that playoff run.

There is simply an ability to manufacture great shots for Trey that you don't get with the Aaron Fox. I mean, that is the biggest reason that he's at number eight. As a pure score, I am high on Fox because awesome in the full court, of course. I mean, insanely difficult to stay in front of. Excellent ball handler, low turnover player, just about. about two and a half a game. Really good finisher at the rim. Forty-nine percent on floaters. Improved three-point shooter up to 37 percent on eight attempts a game. This past year, legitimately really good off the catch. 39% on three-plus attempts.

45% on all two-point jumpers. That mid-range game of his is very effective. And he's a slight plus defensively. He's got really good hands. He's got a propensity for playmaking on that end. He's got pretty good length. He's quick. You know, he's not some real difference maker defensively. but I would say he's a slight plus, which is an advantage over a number of other guys on this list. The limitations for him, though. And for me, the debate was about Fox versus Jaw. That was what I really had a difficult time with because Fox is the better shotmaker, which I really value.

And that makes him the better score overall to me. When you're in these playoff environments, it is important that you can beat a defense that is packing the paint, that you can do so by killing them with that intermediate shot making. I think that Fox has a clear advantage over Jha. I think he has a clear advantage as a three-point shooter there. I think he is clearly a better off-ball score because of his catch-and-shoe ability. Better all-around scorer. Better defender, in my opinion.

But Jaws has a big playmaking edge. Like, Jhaar has that ability, again, to make all the dynamic kickout passes and laydowns and lobs. And just to see the game with anticipation, which Trey is just another level up in that respect. Right. He sees everything. He is such a genius passer that Fox really doesn't have. Fox is probably the weakest playmaker on this list. Tim and Maxie are in a similar tier there.

That's a limiting factor, man, to me. And it's even more limiting when it's like, as much as I like Fox as a score, he's never going to be super efficient. I mean, that playoff run, he was like 53% true shooting. This past year, it's like 57% true shooting. And a big reason for that. And another reason that his playmaking impact isn't maybe what it could be, even though he's not, like, extremely gifted there.

is just that he lets defenses off the hook a little bit too much at this stage in his career. His most special trait isn't always will be his quickness. But he's getting to the rim less and less over the years. In 2020, 31% of his shots came inside three feet. In 2022, it was 20%. In 2024, that number is just 13%. And that's such a big advantage for Jha. This is what I was hinting at earlier.

Jha is always going to make the absolute. absolute most out of his ability to get in the paint. He will drive on you 25, 30 times in a game, and that is inherently going to create good shots, right? Maybe you miss a layup, but there's a lot of good outcomes that come from getting to the rim. You draw fouls, you finish at the rim, you create a shot for a teammate. I just wish that Fox was doing more of that at this stage in his career.

And because he isn't, and because he is probably the weakest playmaker here, I have him at number eight. I think he's more equipped to be a number one than Maxie. I think he's better fit to be in number two than jaw. That's why I have him above those couple guys. But versus Trey, I just think, when you're talking about shouldering the load of a perimeter number one, there is a gap.

Fox is the better pure shot maker, I would say. I mean, he's more versatile there in terms of utilizing the mid-range. But Trey creates a higher shot quality for himself, and especially for his teammates. Well, I don't know about for himself. I think I might push back a little bit on that. I would just worry, here's my one concern about, the Trey versus Fox thing is I would just worry about Trey a little bit more

as like an individual like when I need him to step up and get himself a bucket like Fox has that where it is you make a great point I'm so glad you bring up the jump shooting dynamic because that's one of the things that I've harped on ever since Fox has improved as a jump shooter it's that balance of now that he's legitimately good as a jump shooter he settles so much more often and as a Kings fan it is frustrating because It's this thing, like at the start of a game, where if he hits a pull-up three or he hits a pull-up mid-range, it's like he gets it. And the rest of the game, he's a little more confident in himself from there,

so he is going to take that shot more often where, you know, he can just lull himself into repeated possessions of settling for that shot where I would rather him get downhill. That's his best quality. And he has improved so much more in slamming on the brakes and pull-up jump shooting and mid-range shooting. the reason that I have him over Trey, and I agree with you, like I think he's got a, I think Trey has a playmaking edge that Fox can't make up for. It is just manufacturing shots for himself,

where Fox frustrates me at times settling for the jumper at will. He has something that nobody else in the league has. He is the fastest man in the league. And that to me is just an invaluable quality that I, that I just hold really, really, high, that at a moment's notice, he can just get right by you. If you have a plotting big man and you get him involved in the pick and roll, Fox can just blow by that guy and get an easy look.

And that's the edge to me is I just think that in a playoff setting, I worry way less about Fox creating an easy look for himself. And I think there's a legitimate defensive gap between him and a guy like Trey. And that's why I prefer Fox. It's that fastest man in the league, dude. Nobody else can say that. Like, Fox is still the quickest guy. And I really value that.

And I worry about Trey going stone cold in a playoff game and having all these tough looks and he's just not hitting. Fox I know can get to those looks easy. And you can't stop him. Like, you're just not going to. He is going to blow by. You can get to those looks. Yeah, I'm really, really high on Fox.

I'm just surprised, man. I thought that Fox was kind of, I don't know, like in Centsis top six. Like to me, he is almost stamped as that guy right outside the top five for me. It's definitely close between the two of them. I do also want to clarify, I was talking about those numbers from the playoff run. They were actually very close on efficiency. Fox was like 0.8% better, but the team offense was five points better for the Hawks. Trey scored more.

He, of course, averaged a couple more assists a game. I do think again, that's where perception is a factor. And the shot quality, it's like you can't stay in front of Fox, but a lot of times he is going to slam on the brakes, he's going to take that mid-range pull-up. Or he was taking a bunch of threes in that run, and we know that he took a bunch of threes throughout this regular season. So that's where it's like maybe the theoretical shot quality for Fox can be

higher than Trays. But like, sometimes it's like Tray's just the better shot maker. If both these dudes are going to be taking pull-up jumpers, I know who I'd rather prefer to be the guy. taking all the pull-up jumpers for me it's trey young he's just better at it it's close man i uh i don't have a problem with you taking dearon fox i do think he's the better off ball player as well but also it's like not necessarily that he's a difference maker off ball it's just the willingness to catch and shoot and being pretty good there is a slight advantage i'll take the better number one though

it's tough but i felt like i kind of got to be consistent with my thinking on this and I'm going to prefer the dudes who I think are taking on the tougher jobs and doing a good job of it. If they're doing it the level that Trey is especially, because he is doing it at like a difference making level where I'm not like, eh, do I want that guy to be my number one? I would say, yeah, if you put the right personnel around him on both sides of ball, I'm good with him being like my highest volume offensive player. And I think you could win a championship. I do. Okay. Who's your number five, Logan?

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Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that

excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes

of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me

or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

What the hell does George Bush got to do a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes, I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years. for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Number five is the anti-Trey Young. It is Tyrese Halliburton. Halliburton's the guy that I would emphasize that difference where Tray frustrates me sometimes with him doing too much, him taking too many shots, him being so overwhelmingly ball-dominate.

And that's really where this takes spawned from is I just think Halliburton's fundamental unselfishness just. leads to easy offense for everybody. In this run now with better talent, I think you have seen Halliburton's unselfishness permeate to everybody else on the team in a way that you see Yokic and the Nuggets. Everybody wants to share the basketball.

Everybody wants to eat. We're not looking for a good shot. We are hunting a great shot. And something about those players, man. It's rare. It is just rare that you see a guy that has that kind of jeans, and he wants to play like that, and it goes through to all his teammates.

I value that so, so highly. And as much as Halliburton has the ball in his hands, and as much as he gets this offense going, he is remarkably efficient in terms of taking care of the basketball. He is so efficient as a shot maker, 20 points, 11 assists on 61% true shooting. And if you harken back to when he was really at his apex in the middle of this season, I mean, he was at, I want to say, 27 points, 12 assists on

24. It was like 24. 24, like 12 on over 60% true shooting. He was the second best pull-up jump shooter in the league. He's a special, special shooter too, man. And it's just that combination. The pull-up jump shooting, the overall shooting, and the fundamental unselfishness, man, it makes him such a great player. He shot 55% on floaters. He shot 55% out of the mid-range. He shot 68% in the restricted area. again, we're just talking about overall engines. And, right, like, I think I prefer to earn Fox's individual scoring impact, right? Like, the ease that Fox can generate a shot for himself. But again, it's the overall, the well-rounded impact, the fundamental unselfishness, man.

You're just so rare that you see a player like this that can impact winning offensively like that, man, just through his sheer playmaking and passing. And it's funny, too, because we talk about. Trey doing too much. There's some games, like in this playoff run, where Halliburton would frustrate me with his passiveness, where he'll take less than 10 shots in a playoff game. It's the duality, right? But I will take the passivity in some games, and I will take him playing second fiddle some games to just what he normally brings me on a consistent basis with his winning impact offensively and how unselfish he is, and the genius of his playmaking,

man. He is a brilliant, brilliant playmaker, one of the best in the game, one of the most unselfish players I've ever seen. And I've loved that from Hallie from day one, man. That is something that has jumped off the page about him. And that's why I think he stamped his top five, dude, it just leads to conducive winning offense. And I think him and Indiana are a perfect, perfect fit. Yeah, Indiana has the personnel to be a very good offense. Halliburton makes them a great one. He is one of the awesome ceiling raising players on this list because his decision making is so excellent that he basically optimizes offense. And you mentioned that on selfishness. It is important, right?

That when a guy is able to tilt the defense one way and then he swings it to the second side, that those guys are able to make that extra swing pass, right? That they're able to attack that close out, that they're capable decision makers. But just in terms of creating those advantages, the advantages that can lead to the opportunity for a great shot. Hallie is one of the best in basketball. And because of that, there's not a play type where he doesn't contribute with great efficiency.

And the Pacer's offense was just the best in basketball this year. I mean, it was. It was number two in the regular season. It was the best offense in the postseason. And that's both about the half court and transition. He's the best hit-ahead passer in the league. Nobody is better about making sure that you play with Pace, creating easy opportunities for his teammates there.

and he's a 94th percentile efficiency pick and roll creator. We're talking about an elite shooter, awesome touch from flow to range, an effective driver when he chooses to do that. And he's not a high-end athlete, right? He doesn't do that at real high-end volume, but he's got good enough change in pace. And then there's an absolutely genius passer who can make every read to the roller, every read in terms of skip passes, he's outstanding, consistently hitting poppers,

and he is so, so willing to do so. Also, when you talk about off ball value, 80-second percentile spot-up player, and he's going to start basically every possession with the ball in his hands, but it's not going to stick to him. It's going to move. It's going to move. So it may not show up as an assist every time. It may not show up as a shot attempt every time. He's creating the advantage that gets things into motion on a significant majority of these possessions, and he's going to be ready. Right. If you're talking about, okay, make a swing pass, attack a close out, kick out to the corner, attack a close out, right?

he is going to be relocating. He is going to be ready to catch that ball again and then to knock down a spot-up jumper, which is a rare trait to have from a star player. And you mentioned the production that he was putting forth early in the year. Then he had a slump. He had a big-time slump after an injury. And I just think clearly his confidence as a driver was hampered because of the hamstring injury, which then made him more overwhelmingly relying on the pull-up jumper, which made it more difficult, which lowered his shot quality a bit, which made that less efficient. His volume went down. He didn't want to assert himself to the same extent.

Like, all that stuff to me was overplayed. People talking about Hallie regression, maybe he doesn't give you 24 a night, right? Maybe he's probably not going to have this sort of Steph Curry pull-up shooting run that he did to start last year. If he were, then he might even be a spot higher on this lift because that was an absolutely insane basketball player. But I do think he's closer to that than the guy that he was post-hamstring. And I think in the playoffs, he bounced back and he got to a place where it's like, yeah, sometimes you wanted him to do more, absolutely. But overall, he manufactured awesome offense.

And people will try to detract from his contributions to that because he maybe doesn't have the overwhelming eye-popping volume stats. You know who led the Pacers in plus minus? Tyrese Halliburton. You know how plus minus on off in the playoffs, Tyrese Halliburton? Not to say that like, you know, on a sample size like that in the playoffs, those are the best metrics because things can get walky with a small sample size like that. But also, sometimes that's because like these stars are playing 40 minutes so they're barely

ever off the floor. The Pacers actually play dude so much. Like you're getting a decent sample with Hallie off the floor every game. And like, yeah, they still could produce good offense, not great offense like they did with Halliburton on the floor. So I am still super high in him. That selflessness, that efficiency is a difference maker between him and Trey, in my opinion. And I want to clarify, I said that I think you can.

win a title with Trey as your best offensive player. I think that requires a lot going right. Part of that is, in my mind, I just, I want him to play with Wembe so badly. And if they got that pairing, I think that they would win titles, but also Wemby's kind of a freak. You'd have to have a really good defense. You'd have to have really good supporting offensive personnel. How is another dude, though, where it's like offensively, I mean, it is up another level with him, the level of efficiency that I expect him to produce if you put pretty good personnel alongside him. I think you're already seeing that. I think we're going to continue to see that. Okay. How about number four, Logan? I just want to confirm too. So you have Halliburton at five as well.

I have Halliburton at five as well. Okay. At number four, I have a guy that he faced off with in the playoffs. And it's actually on wrestling the other night with Jaylon Brunson. I heard a lot of people in the comment section. They were like, I'd actually tune in if they just brought random people who beef on like uh it's a great idea yeah i really thought brunson was going to hit him with the chair i was fired up may just stare at each other but still pretty good overall dude next we should get like lebron and stuff out there man that would be awesome that would be awesome brunson you talk about those on-off numbers man brunson had one of the most staggering ones in terms of offensive rating discrepancy uh the next were 14.7 points per 100 possessions better with

on the court. That's an offensive rating, excuse me, of 123 with Brunson. That's an offensive rating of 108.3 without Brunson. That's a staggering difference. And the level that he was at in terms of a pull-up shooter and a three-point shooter this year was insane. He shot 40% from behind the arc, which with what Brunson gives you is such a methodical driver, always hunting a shot in the mid-range, you know, going to his post-up game. he's just got so many different ways to kill you that when he can shoot at that clip from behind the arc he's almost effectively unguardable man it is just so tough to stop a guy like that he shot 54% on floaters he shot 45% on stepbacks shot 43% out of the midrange 53% in the paint

non-restricted area like brunson is so so stupid efficient from everywhere on the court and what's so remarkable to me about Brunson scoring at this volume and still being a efficient player Carson was the burden that he had on his shoulders. I mean, you look at the personnel in New York. I get that Julius Randall was out there for a while, but he's doing a lot of this without Julius Randall. I mean, there is no other high-level advantage creator on this team. Brunson just shouldered such an insane load this season and in these playoffs. It's just remarkable that he held up with just 2.4 turnovers per game in the regular season 2. There are just so few guys in the league that could take this kind of responsibility,

this kind of role, and generate offense like this. And again, to me, the differentiator between him and other guys is the fact that he can score from everywhere on the court. You are not safe with Jalen Brunson anywhere. Wherever he is on the court, he can get a bucket from. He's a really good playmaker, too. I don't think he's one of the highest end playmakers, but he's still a really damn good one. Yeah, man, I'm shocked.

I am shocked that Brunson has climbed this high, man. I always like Jalen Brunson. Oh, yeah, you did. You know, I always thought he was a great winning player. I never envisioned him becoming this kind of basketball player, man. A 40% shooter from behind the arc and just one of the best point guards in all of basketball, man. He's really special. He's really, really special.

I hope that with the guy like Tyler Colette coming into the fold, man, with the Knicks making some other big moves for like Bridges, I hope that burden can be alleviated even further off of his shoulders. And the Knicks can be even better, man. Brunson is one of the best scores in basketball, man. He is one of the best point guards in basketball. I think he has to be top five. Gotta be top five.

I would say has to be top four. We would need to see Hallie get back to the level that he was at. early in last year. And you could still argue maybe that Hallie is the better ceiling razor because he does so many things that only get more valuable when you put better personnel around him. In fact, I would say he's the better ceiling razor. But the ceiling that Brunson can get you to was pretty damn high. And the floor that he can get you to is definitely higher just because of the sheer volume that he can take on. That's one of his biggest strengths here. The last guard to average 32 points per game in a playoff run that lasted at least

12 games was Kobe in 2003. Brunson is the first dude in 21 years and the last dude was Kobe being Bryant. And part of that is just his conditioning is incredible. Like that is a factor here. Not a lot of dudes can go out there and take 30 shots a night like Jalen Brunson is capable of. His diversity as a shot maker is also massive. As you mentioned, what he can do out of isolation, what he can do out of pick and roll, being an excellent pull-up shooter, being 50% from floater range, 53% actually, utilizing the mid-range, having those turnarounds with his back to the basket, having the mid-range and three-point stepbacks. Like, he just has so many ways to create for himself and he utilizes every part of the floor.

That creates for him individually quite a high floor, and his physicality is an advantage as well. he's operating at a physical disadvantage compared to like everybody else on this list, right? The guy is basically six foot. He's listed at six two. He's, I would say, a little bit of a miniature six two. But he has the ability to create separation. He has the ability to go through guys because of his strength

that always matters in the playoffs. The playoffs are in so many ways a strength game when more physicality is allowed. Brunson does well in that environment. He gets to the line at a good rate as well, which helps his efficiency. And you mentioned that offensive. swing, man, 15 points producing a 95th percentile offense with him on the floor.

That's a pretty damn high ceiling. And it's not with very good offensive personnel alongside him. It's with solid spot-up shooters. Their offensive rebounding is absolutely a component in them being such a good offense because you're securing extra possessions. That factors into their rating. But what Brunson can do as like the one guy, the one high-end shot creator, is incredibly impressive.

His limitations to me only really matter against the top three and those are the reasons that I can't have him in the top three. Creating super easy offense. Everything for Brunson is pretty tough. And when you talk about those floor versus ceiling dynamics, that's where it's like guys who do have more overwhelming physical advantages or guys who instead of shooting six, seven pull up threes with good volume or three pointers overall, right?

If you're talking about a Steph Curry, well, that's game-breaking three-point shooting at crazy volume that's crazy efficient. Because Brunson does utilize the mid-range and those touch shots so much, I like it. I think it's good to have that sort of variety, but it does make it a little bit harder to be super, super efficient. In the playoffs, 53% true shooting. That's in crazy difficult circumstances. In the regular season, 59% solid, good, even, not matching up to the top three sort of guys.

And largely, that is just because he's always operating. at a size disadvantage and he's quick but he's not the quickest guy out there also you mention this advanced playmaking is an area in which he's limited against some of the best dudes on this list right part of it is his size he doesn't have the height to see everything but he's not making the sort of high-end skip passes that we see with some of these other dudes these beautiful lob passes out of pick and roll and then you do question like the super ball dominant style what is the absolute ceiling there. Those are just little things. Those are why he isn't in the top three for me. I think the production, I think his ability to carry an offense. I think his variety and brilliance as a shot

maker is just too impressive to have any lower than this. All right. Into the top three, Logan. Who is in your three spot? It pains me to say at number three, this guy was definitely number one for a very long time. It's going to be Steph Curry. Steph this year put up 26, 5, and 5 on 62% true shooting and I think would have been hard to argue anybody else, you know, other than Steph for a really long time. But we've seen Steph take a step back in a few areas. One, you know, just athleticism, quickness. You talk about generating really easy shots. Steph is always going to have the unparalleled weapon in NBA history of being the greatest shooter ever. We all know the G word. Everybody talks about it. Steph's gravity is unlike that of anybody else's. And that is an

invaluable trait to have. It is going to make him insanely valuable for however long he lasts the rest of his career, the stuff that you can do with him off ball, the stuff that he can still do on ball creating shots for himself. But just 7.4% of Steph's shots came within three feet. That is the lowest mark of his entire career. I think that rim pressure reflects his athletic downturn. He shot 51.5% on two-pointers. That is the lowest mark for him in a decade. And so, again, it's just the ease of shot quality that Steph has at this point in his career. And I do want to emphasize, too.

The Warriors are not doing Stefan Curry any favors with the personnel that he has on the court with him. He is in an exceptionally tough situation at this point in his career, right? Steph was 35 last year, man. He's not getting any younger. And his situation is not getting any easier, man. Clay is a shell of himself. not anywhere close to what he once was. You're trotting out lineups that have really poor spacing

with Draymond Green or Looney or Trace Jackson Davis. He's the only real offensive creator for his team. So what I just want to emphasize here is I think Steph has taken a step back for sure from where he once was. It's just naturally going to happen, man. We're going to get there too one day, Carson. We're going to get old and decrepit and our knees aren't going to work anymore, man. I don't know, man.

Bro, what the fuck, bro? That's hell of personal for no. Oh, I'm sorry, bro. That wasn't intentional. The knees? Oh, I'm sure it wasn't the knees specifically, knowing that I've had three Patela dislocations. The unmitigated gall out of you, Logan Camden.

I just mentioned that because I felt really old this morning when I woke up. My knees were hurting and I just thought we could. Imagine if you were looking at your knee and your Patella, your kneecap was out of place. Your knee was just flat, Logan. Imagine I'm going to do that thrice. I would prefer not to think about that, actually. Imagine going under the knife for that. That's just my lived experience.

I have been fortunate. I have been very fortunate in the health department, my friend. Relished, honky. Anyways, it's going to happen to all of us, man. And it has naturally happened with Steph. But while I emphasize that, that Steph has taken a little bit of an athletic backseat, the Warriors are not doing him any favors. Like, his situation is insanely hard.

And when you're looking at other difficult situations across the league, I think Steph is in one of the toughest. That's what we can't take for granted, is how great Steph has consistently made the Warriors in just super tough situations. And I think Steph could be more efficient. I think his numbers could be even better if they got him some more offensive help in Golden State. But there are just two guys that are just simply better, in my opinion, at this point, man. And it is just inarguable to have stuff above those guys.

I think there are some people who will make the Brunson has surpassed Steph argument. That's where I'm going to push back and I'm going to disagree. I do prefer what he can do in terms of just like this overwhelming value, making life easier on his teammates because of his offball value, which is like nothing that we've ever seen. With this very lackluster supporting cast, Logan, he's still produced an 82nd percentile offense while he was on the court. nobody else in NBA history has morphed defenses like this to create easy shots for his teammates.

And that is not just off ball, right? That's also with his ability to run these absurdly high picking roles that you have to blitz and then you're creating four on threes. That's Steph. That's what he's always done. And his value to an offense will never be fully captured on the stat sheet. That is absolutely still true. And by the way, he's still an awesome on ball like statistical producer.

He's still the third most efficient 20 point per game scoring guard in all of basketball, just behind the two dudes who are above him on this list. Still a 79th percentile pick and roll creator, an 83rd percentile isolation creator. The guy is absolutely outstanding. But he has taken a step back, and it's not necessarily a huge one, but it is to the point where it's like the top two guys or the top two guys, and I think you'd be hard pressed to convince me otherwise. his last 25 games, Steph was just 23 a night on 57% true shooting.

It was his least efficient pick and roll season since his prime started, and it was really the least that he has created for others in the scope of that prime as well. So when we're just comparing him to, we can say his name, SGA, who is the guy who I have one spot above him. Defensive impact is actually one gap between the two, but more importantly, it's just the ability of SGA to exert himself physically and produce consistently in a way that Steph can't match at this point, to create such a high shot quality for himself, to be there every single night, giving you 25 plus points with good efficiency,

pressuring the rim, killing you with intermediate shot making. SGA is just significantly more consistent in that respect than Steph at this point. I do think that he is just clearly the better basketball player. But I don't think that you could convince me that Steph belongs any lower than this. Because the guy's amazing. He's still Steph Curry. So much of the all-time special stuff that he does applies. And you put the right dudes around him, you can still be an amazing basketball team.

The Warriors have done him at his service. The Warriors middling team success is not about Steph. I mean, Steph's playing at an unbelievable level. Is it a little lower than it has been? Yes. But his supporting cast, it's just not very good. Plus SGA's got more aura, man That was the one thing that you also didn't mention

Does he? I mean, Steph has aura, bro Steph is kind of the OG aura man He's cute He shimmies He has hella swag He's like the most fun basketball player To watch maybe ever

Steph has aura bro I'm gonna have to maybe disagree SGA has also obviously insane aura I think there's a massive aura gap at this point man SGA's on a different level Do you really you really think there's a massive aura gap? You're just saying that because of the Skim's ads, bro.

What? How do you know what ads I've been watching? I know you, Logan. Plus, I have your computer search history. Dude, SGA is... And by the way, Skims is about as good as it gets. That's about as broadcast friendly as it gets. I was going to say that's on the good end, man.

You don't want to get into the weeds of that. Yeah, you searched SGA edging compilation, which luckily didn't exist. Anyway, SGA is probably my favorite player to watch in the league. Like, him or Brunson are just masters, masters of their craft. And I completely agree with what you said about the physicality, man. That is the distinction to me. And I know that people get tired of the word consistent with SGA, but that really is what it is, man.

It is such a consistent baseline. You get every single game. And it's just stuff that you can't take away. The way he uses his arm and pushes off. the way he big bodies guys, the acrobatic finishes at the rim, the way he can finish through contact but can also finish with insane finesse, the mid-range game. The thing that's so remarkable about watching SGA play is he will take the most difficult shot you've seen in the game. It is 100% contested. He has a hand in his face. He has just created a sliver of space and you're going,

man, there's no way that shot can go in, right? Bottoms. Bottoms. Bottoms. Bottoms. SGA is just like that and you just can't stop him. You just can't stop him, man. He is, there's no real way to game plan or like to take away what SGA does.

And it really befuddled me, Carson, that leading into these playoffs, there were so many people suggesting that SGA was going to take a step back in the playoffs or he was going to fall off or this wasn't something that he could do every single night. Bull. He did it every night.

Like, there was a point in these playoffs where I would have taken SGA probably over anybody else in the playoff field of what he was giving you, man. And he is just 30 and 6 every night. You can't stop him. He is so damn efficient from everywhere on the court, man. 69% in the restricted area, 52% in the paint, non-restricted area, 49% in the mid-range, 46% on stepbacks. It's the change in pace. It's the physicality. It's the acceleration.

It's the aura, man. It's everything. It's not the aura, bro. Is it? It's the aura. Dude, that's why he doesn't miss. You ever wondered why SGA doesn't miss? Because he's aura maxing.

Yeah, that makes sense. Exactly. Yeah, we should all do that. I have SGA number two as well. He's the most consistent score in the league. 30 a night on 64% true shooting. You know what you're getting every time out. And it's just an incredibly well-rounded skill set that he has.

You mentioned, Logan. the insane shiftingness, the insane change in pace, which is like kind of second to none. I mean, he and Luca both have crazy change in pace. They both have crazy deceleration. I think that SGA's pure acceleration is definitely a little shifterier than Luca's deceleration, I would say, is a little bit nastier. But two slithery dudes, you can't keep him away from the rim.

He's the number one restricted area scoring guard and basketball. and if you can, like the Mavericks, for example, we're committed to doing in the playoffs, loading up the paint, roaming off of those corner shooters, to always have an extra helper, well, then he shoots 52% in the paint outside the restricted area, 50% for mid-range. Like, he is both the best at-rim scoring guard in the league right now,

by volume, like just objectively, and the best intermediate short-range shot maker, really in basketball. It is insane how dominant. and he is as a paint score. And the one thing that people have said is, well, maybe you can leave him from three. He was great from three in these playoffs. He was like 43%.

And consistently, right, he can get to that little step back. It's not his preference. But if you give him too much room, he is a good three-point shooter. I thought this playoff run was really impressive. 37, six and a half on 58% true shooting with three stocks. You mentioned that difficult shot making. That was the biggest thing in this playoff run. because he wasn't able to get to the rim like he normally does,

because his teammates were just incapable of punishing Dallas for leaving them, incapable of punishing Dallas for sending aggressive help. They couldn't make the necessary decisions as playmakers. They couldn't knock down the necessary shots. Asia, I thought, was quite good as a playmaker in that series. He made a lot of good reads, got the ball out to open guys who just couldn't deliver, and he still was able to carry this offense, just on the back of, I am such a tough-ass bucket.

When you combine that with what he normally does, pressuring the rim, it's just absolutely outstanding. He might be my favorite player to watch in the league right now. I mean, he's my favorite scorer to watch. I'll say that. Yokic is probably my favorite, all things considered, because of the passing. But I think SGA is an absolute artist. The number of counters, the balance, the body control, the pure shot making.

He's an artist, man. He's also the most valuable defender on this list. Sometimes maybe he gets overrated there because of the stocks. I think he got underrated after the Dallas series because people acted like him helping off of Derek Jones Jr. and PJ Washington, both of whom he was assigned to in stretches, was just like him not knowing how to defend. No, it's him roaming.

It's him playing that sort of free safety helper role, coming over and offering help on roles, being there as a low man. And he's good at that. I mean, that's where he averaged three stocks a game in the playoffs. He's a pretty good rebounder. He gets into passing. lanes, produces a lot of steals, forces turnovers.

I just don't think there's an argument for anybody else in the top two at this point. I think the gap between him and staff is clear. His limitations, though, just compared to the number one. And I think it's close. I think if you don't think it's close between these two, I would disagree. I think SGA is stamped as a top five player. And I know that some people don't feel that way. I think his game is built for the playoffs because of how he dominates the paint.

and I think he's just going to continue to turn out dominant season after dominant season. And as his team matures around him, they'll win titles. He was ready this year. He really was. And that is like kind of the most important thing for OKC. Rest your team is young. You need some improvements in terms of your offensive skill and consistency. SGA was there.

He was ready for the moment. But his couple limitations, he's not an elite playmaker. He's a good one. He can get tripped up as a bit as a decision maker. He's not going to make a lot of those next level reads. And the lack of volume three point shooting does limit his scoring ceiling. He is the most consistent. He hits his floor more than anybody.

I mean, he had more 30-point games this year than anybody since, I want to say it was 88 Jordan. He was at least on that pace. I mean, he is an exclusive company just in terms of hitting 30 every night. But there is more potential for explosions with, say, Aluka Donchich, if that guy takes 12 threes and he makes seven or eight of them. SJ doesn't quite have that upside. Those are just the little areas where Luca has an edge over him.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream,

this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jek. And I'm Alex English. episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. They're finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Took the words out of my mouth. Those are the two points I was going to make. Luca's got a higher scoring ceiling. I definitely think SGA is the more consistent score, but it is the fact that he takes those volume amount of threes. The other thing is that Luca is one of the most masterful playmaking.

in basketball ever. I think he's the number two score and the number two, I don't know that score. Him and SGA is close. It kind of, again, depends on what you value. I think Yokic is the number one score in playmaker in basketball, and then I would have Luca too. The scoring is close, but it is that explosions to me. And Luca can be frustrating. Right? Like when he just continually settles for that jumper, and you know that he can just work his way into the paint and get a great look every single time. But it's the attention that he commands, man. You have to send doubles at him when he is eating or he is just going to tear you alive. There are very few guys that can hang with him in isolation. And the one thing I want to emphasize about Luca, too, over this playoff run,

I do think he could have been a little bit better defensively on the biggest stage. I think he has some emotional and, like, just control things that he needs to work through, like on the biggest stage. I think that was evident. But, you know, a bad finals performance or him not winning the finals against a stacked Boston team did not fundamentally change the way I view Luca Donchitz or something. I know people get extreme with these things where all Luca lost in the final, so Jason Tatum's better or something like that. Yeah, let's kill him. Yeah. Like, in a lot of ways, Carson, I think that this is just the trials and tribulations of a guy who is this damn good this early, right? People criticize Dirk Nowitsky for a very long time. In a lot of ways, I think it mirrors this. In a lot of ways,

I think it mirrors, you know, Dirk's kind of path, too. You know, he loses in the finals early. People judge him prematurely. And I don't know how you don't look at this finals run as a testament to how great Luca is as a player, man, and what he can do. Like, Kyrie was inconsistent, man. This is not an overwhelmingly talented offensive team. I think you should give Dallas a lot of credit for the defense that they put behind him because that was equally important. but they can't do this without Luca, man. Luca's one of the most special players on planet Earth, and it was an underwhelming finals.

I was disappointed, especially the one game where Luca fouls out. I mean, that was so disappointing. But this finals run was a testament to his greatness, and I am so, so confident that Luca is going to get back here one day, and I think he's going to hoist the trophy. Like, Luca is that great of a basketball player that I think he has to.

It's going to be disappointing to me if Luca never wins a chip, man. He is one of the most talented players. players I've ever seen. Like, I think he's going to do it, and I think it's a testament that he got his team this far and this quickly. And this young, that's also why people, I think, Judge Lucas so harshly is that he is so accomplished at such a young age, man. There are just very few guys that have done all this by the age of 25, man.

He's been to a finals. He's been all NBA, what, five times already. It is ridiculous. First team. Five times. Yeah. He is just on a historic, historic trajectory. And I think this.

is his title until further notice. And I don't really know what SGA could do. The playmaking gap between him and SGA is so large that I just don't know what SGA could do to surpass him. The defensive gap is pretty big. Like I think SGA is a better defender than Luca. But the playmaking gap is just much, much too large for me to to put SGA or even think that that's possible. I think that the playmaking gap does outweigh the defensive gap as well. But I think that if you were to argue the SGA case, that would be what it's based upon. And I guess just the consistency as a scorer because there is a bit more volatility with Luca now, even than there used to be. Because although he's clearly a better jump shooter, he just had a career jump shooting regular season.

And that's part of what made him so devastating, the best version of himself that we've ever seen. He's always taking those shots at a high volume. But he's even more relying on the jumpers now. He's getting to the rim less second year of his career 26% of his shots came inside of three feet now that number is down to 12%. It's kind of the trend with a lot of these guys as they get older. They become more and more reliant on the jumper and he's gotten better at those shots 100%. But in the playoffs, he's 47% effective field goal percentage overall on pull-up jumpers, which is not a bad number, but it's about 5% lower than his regular season. And it's not a particularly good number.

and that was because it was just a real Jekyll and Hydeck there. He came out ice cold, then he was red hot against Minnesota, then he cooled down again in the finals overall. So there's a little bit more volatility when you're relying on those tough step-back threes versus SGA just getting to his bread and butter, 10-12 footers that we know are super consistent. But the ceiling, Luca provides offensively, is clearly higher. Like, I think offensively overall there's a gap. Luca is to me one of the 10 to 15 best offensive players ever.

I said number 10 in terms of his peak when we had this conversation during the playoffs. You could argue down to 15. I think you go below that. And I'm not sold. I just think the ability to get whatever he wants out of pick and roll, to bully so many different matchups out of isolation, to make every pass, to manipulate the defense, to move the low man wherever he wants, right?

You blitz the pick and roll and you come over to tag the roller, well, then he hits that skip pass. or he can fake as if he's going to hit the skip pass, move you back out to the corner shooter, free up the roller to get wide open. He can see every passing angle at his height. He's a great lob passer, obviously. And on top of that, he's going to give you an efficient 34 points per game. The guy's sensational.

I do think that he is definitely number one in this conversation. Now, he does have some issues, and I think the biggest one that he has to improve upon is the consistency of his defense and probably conditioning interrelated with that, because I thought his defense was fine. throughout most of the playoffs. I thought he was engaged. I thought he made plays with his hands. And then the finals were mostly a disaster,

where he was not just incapable of staying in front of guys. He didn't seem to care. He was just making these inexcusable lapses away from the ball. And he was a really big negative on that end in the finals. But I'm seeing some people act as though he's like consistently worst defender in the league level, act as though you mentioned the Jason Tatum thing. Like he's surpassed him because Lucas that bad defensively. That to me is not accurate.

Maybe the injury was something of a factor. I'm not giving Luca any excuses for the level he defended at the finals. I shredded him for that because he deserved it. But in terms of the projection, do I expect that to happen again next time that he's in a situation with those sort of stakes? No, I don't think so. And then I think the offensive shot quality that he can create and some of the improvements that he has made in his game, being a little bit more willing to be a catch and shooter, being a little bit more willing to push and transition. These are marginal improvements.

He's still an overwhelmingly ball dominant player. He's the Luca that we've always known, but with some alterations, with some improvements year after year, improved post game, all these things that have made him just a bit better, starting from an incredible place. I do want to just give one last shout out to SGA's scoring numbers by play type, bro, because this shit is so stupid. 95th percentile pick and roll, 80th percentile isolation, obviously one of the best transition scores in basketball, 90th percentile post-up, the footwork, the best.

bag, man. I am kind of in love with SGA. I'm not even going to lie. But I have him number two. I do think that Luca is better. Okay, there's our top 10. Logan, I think the biggest surprise to me is not even about our lists. It's about the fact that you think Kate Cunningham is better than Jamal Murray.

That's where I was confused at the start of this list. I was like, are you going to have SGA as a shooting guard, Luca as a shooting guard? Because I thought surely Jamal has to be the first cut. He's not even your first cut. No, he's my third. cut. I had Drew Holiday above Jamal. No way. No way.

We got to get this guy lobotomized. What? Do you remember what Jamal did in 2023? How many dudes you know who can average 26, 6, 6, and 7 on 60% true shooting in a title run? Not many. I mean,

I was going to ask you, who is the, who do you think is most likely to fall on this list? And who do you think is most likely to join this list by the end of next year if you had to pick? Most likely to fall, I guess, would be dame, just as a matter of age. I don't see anybody else regressing. I guess I could be like, oh, man, you know, I don't like what I'm seeing from Jarr or

somebody, but I think all those guys are pretty solid and are only trending upward. So even though I have Dame at 7, I have a few guys below him, he'd probably be the most likely to fall off at this point. Most likely to join, I guess it would be Cade, but I'm not done with this Jamal Cade conversation yet, man. Drew also, Drew, here's the thing, Logan. Drew is now the beneficiary of an amazing situation where he can be your fourth or fifth option offensively

and do all his good complimentary stuff. Drew is a number two, you're not winning the title. Jamal's an objectively bad defender though, right? Not like bad, bad. Like, mediocre to fine. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking of it in terms of like, who would I, who would I rather have as like my number? Like, if you put Jamal in Detroit, does that actually really make a difference to you?

I just think his edge as a shot maker is real, man. Like, Cade's a good jump shooter, sure. Jamal is an insane jump shooter. He is like 50% from mid range, 40% from deep, crazy efficient on stepbacks. That provides real playoff value. And this year it went south. And I want to just elaborate a little bit on why I do have him off because it pains me because I love Jamal Murray. But he had the worst true shooting percentage in this postseason by any 20 point per game score of the last five years.

It was really brutal. And playmaking also compared to like everybody else on this list, you know, you can say he's in the maxi Fox tier, but he is clearly one of the weakest dudes there. So no, Jamal wouldn't be a difference maker as a number one. He wouldn't be. I just think he's clearly a better number two. And I think Drew, as much as I love the guy, he's got to be like your fourth best player, or maybe your third best player overall,

but your fourth best player offensively to win the title, your fourth scoring option. I just think that's crazy. Jamal just was the number two on a title team. Everybody in my top 10, I think either could do that or as a number one, you know, they could bring you to winning like 45 to 50 games make you a solid offense.

I mean, maybe I'm just scarred from this playoff run from Jamal. I think you're scarred. I just also don't, I don't view him as a number one. I think Kate is a, can be a, Drew Holliday's the number one? Drew, where in the senior center and the big three? Drew is just because of all of his defensive value that he brings.

I don't think Jamal brings really any. Like, Jamal's fine. I think you're understanding. When Jamal is engaged, he's six, four, he's a solid athlete, he's strong. He's fine. You don't look at him out there and think, oh, man. Like, you try to mismatch attack on Jamal.

You're not going to find a lot of success, right? When LeBron goes at Jamal, Jamal holds up fine. I would say he's an average defender. And I would say he is leaps and bounds above Drew offensively. If Drew was your second option, you'd be fucked. I mean, Milwaukee tried to do that. And what did he do? He went out there.

And you know, the only reason that Jamal is the worst guy in the last five years in terms of playoff true shooting percentage for this past year? Because I set the bar too high for Drew. Drew's taking enough shots. He's just not scoring 20 a game. He's out there giving you 17. And I'm like 46, 47% true shooting. You did that for three straight years.

I think you're too on Jamal right now. I just think we also have to remember that Jamal plays with Nicola Yokic. I mean, like, Drew Holiday plays on the most talented basketball team in the league where he can score 13 points per game. And all we do is sing his praises. He's clamps. He's class. He's an awesome defensive player. Drew gives me, Drew gives me a-

this go for you? I mean, Jamal's third. He's third. I know, but I'm just saying like this defense over offense. I mean, it's so, Drew is allowed to be a role player. Drew is the, Drew is the only one. Drew is the only one that I have up this eye. Everybody else is offence oriented. I'm saying like, if we just convert this to another position, how many people is Jaden McDaniels better than? Jane McDaniels doesn't have the offensive value that Drew Holiday does. Why are you acting like Drew is a complete, why do you like Drew's a complete? I'm not. I love Drew. bum now offensively. He can still play make. He can still get downhill and finish. Because we saw what he looked like when he was asked to handle any sort of Starburden

offensively over the last few years. And it was hideous in the playoffs. It was brutal. I love Drew. I made a whole video appreciating Drew. But and look, I don't even think Drew's. Drew would honestly maybe be my 12th guy. I might take him over here at this point. Why do you actually like it's egregious because it's Jamal. Because Jamal, I think is clearly 11. When you, you text and you said he were struggling with Fox 9 through 11 Because you want to go in French Jamal Because he played like a top 15 dude in a playoff run Last year, a year ago

And he also did it basically in the playoff run before that And Drew Holiday can't do that And Kate Cunningham can't do that I don't know, man I think there's 11 top 10 point guards And Jamal Marie is one of them I Wow

Wow man This guy wants to French Jamal. Why are you taking it there? As if I haven't only made salient basketball points. You just love Jamal. I just think it's funny how much you love Jamal Murray. I've just never seen someone like Jamal. You love Jamal Murray more than any other person I've met, man.

He's so fun to watch. And he's also awesome. And he's the second best player on a team that has over the last two years been tied for the best basketball team overall with the Celtics, where Drew Holliday is their fourth best player when they're healthy. Who's the next guy to you after Jamal? After Jamal, it's probably Drew or James Hardin. It might be Hardin. Hardin is obviously a significantly better offensive player. He creates pretty damn good shot quality, but there's an extreme volatility there and obviously a big old gap defensively.

One of those two. Then I think you get into like, then I'd probably go Cade. Then I'd probably go Lamello, Garland, you know. We're getting into that sort of range. Yeah, I think that's about right. I had a similar...

Yeah. I had similar thoughts after that. I think I would have Cade 14. I just think at this point, Hardin is still pretty clearly better than Cade. I mean, just the mastery of playmaking. with the pull-up shooting where he does have an edge. The shot quality you're getting from him is higher.

But you know me. I love a little K in my life. All right. There you go, folks. Wow. What a difficult list. Early on, I was reconsidering everything in my life for a moment. But then I said, you know what?

No, I feel good about this list. I feel good about this list. And I'm going to stick with it. Lots of fun. And we are going to continue doing this throughout the summer. We've got four more positions to get to. So that should be a blast. If you guys want more of that,

Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel so you see all of it. You can catch all of our content here, all of our full shows, all of our video essays, and all of our trivia stuff, which we will continue to do throughout the summer. We just had an episode go up with HiveMind, which was bundles of fun. Everybody go check that out. And if you want to follow us across social, you can do so. TikTok, Instagram, at NerdSesh, Twitter at Nerd underscore Sesh. You can listen to the podcast across audio platforms.

and you can check out our merch at thevolume.com. You can also join our Discord to chat with the fellas. So with that, as always, appreciate you guys. I have been Carson Brabber. I have been Logan Camden. And this was NerdSeth. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite.

Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that experience. excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.