The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Pacers-Thunder NBA Finals Game 3 Reaction: Indiana bench shines, OKC gassed

Episode Date: June 12, 2025

Colin Cowherd & Jason Timpf react to the Indiana Pacers beating the Oklahoma City Thunder in Game 3 of the NBA Finals. Colin & Jason give their takes on how Indiana has taken a 2-1 lead and what OKC can do to comeback. Who do they like to win Game 4 and the NBA Finals? They also discuss the Knicks coaching search and potential landing spots for Kevin Durant.  Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates!  #Volume #HoopsTonight #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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that they'd be interesting. And here we are, after three games of the NBA, finals and the Pacers are up to one, two games away from potentially stealing what would be one of the craziest NBA championships that I've seen in my time covering the NBA. I can think of nobody better to break this down with. Then Colin Cowherd, who's been kind enough to give us this time tonight and join the show. Colin, where is your head at after three games of the NBA finals? Well, the Pacers, you know, and you and I had talked about this, the Celtics, the Celtics, this year were better on the road than at home. Denver is the same team. Oklahoma City is not the same

team on the road. They're not. Their bench players, their rotational players are young. That's the downside of youth. They are not the same team on the road. They're very vulnerable. Tonight they had 19 turnovers. They got really sloppy. I didn't think SGA ever got into a great rhythm. He did a great job coaching and prodding and poking his team. But my takeaway is like tonight was a game that, you know, in football there's the old thing about you can steal yards and field position and over the course of the game you get better

field position. I thought the pacer's between steals, blocks, they had 11 between offensive rebounds, stole about eight to 10 points tonight. Just sneaky points. You know, like one of them

is McConnell on the inbounds. I think from Caruso steals up point. That's a huge, huge, huge. huge play, especially when you're the home team and the crowd erupts. And I just thought over the course of the game, just eight four or five baskets, either denied or provided sneaky points. And that's kind of the difference in the game. It was just, I mean, that game, until the last three minutes, I didn't know who was going to

win it. It was just a very tight game. And I think they deserve a lot of credit. I mean, Indiana's bench. Jesus. I mean, God, that, again, bench at home. bench at home, bench on the road. Matherin, who starts sometimes for them,

who reminds me a little bit of a little Westbrook. You know, Westbrook was hyper athletic. Matherin was a quarterback and a hockey player in Canada. It goes to Arizona, as you know, crushes it, super athletic, but not as out of control as Westbrook. Like, he's going to be a great player in this league. But I guess that's my, the Pacers, just a lot of blocks and stuff.

deals and effort points, and that's the ball game. Yeah, you know, I had my eye on Mathrin and McConnell in particular off of the Pacer's bench coming into this series, not because I'm an Arizona fan, although obviously it's been awesome watching those guys just kill it. I mean, 28 points in an NBA finals game. That is like a real feather in the cap for a young basketball player. And honestly, like when you, I've had a lot of mailbag questions and things like that from fans over the course of the last couple of weeks who have been asking, like, what's the next

step for the pacer's like where's their next leap and it's that kid it's him yeah it's him becoming no question 25 26 an all-star level guard yeah and you know I said this and I don't know if you and I talked about this Oklahoma City's got more depth but there's this sense that okay Oklahoma City's talents here and Indiana is below and I'm like I don't I don't really buy that I think I think McConnell I think T.J McConnell is a really really good basketball player I think Matherin who started some games for them this year. He was like their third or fourth leading score. He's exploding.

I mean, we all know that Seacum and Halley are great. Miles Turner's defense in the second half was unbelievable. Like, I don't think the gap in talent, especially when you go back home, I don't think it's that. I mean, O.B. Toppin, his dunk, I put him up by seven. And then he got a block on the other end. Like, I think the talent disparity here is inches, not feet. I think Indiana's got a real team, and they have a lot of different players.

I mean, Obie Toppins hyperathletic. Miles Turner's a rim protector. Say Occam's got a pretty touch. Halle's more assist than scoring, but can do both. Neesmith can hit threes. McConnell's the spark plug. Matherins, the young emerging hyper athletic guy. I mean, they got a lot of levers to pull.

So I watch this. It's just fun watching this series. I'm like, at the end of the game, I'm like, is the Indiana more good players? I mean, they just pulled a lot of levers tonight. I do think they're better down the roster in terms of just the level of like consistency they get from all of their supporting players. Like there's like, I'm watching the end of the second quarter and like Ben Shepard's out there and Matherin and McConnell. And I'm like, this is Carlisle riding his bench in like what is typically a starting group session. I think where you see the talent gap between OKC and Indiana is like just that like top end shot creation.

Like when things really bogged down and both defenses are locked in, Shea is just so much better at like getting to his spots and finding those like shots that he can make. I think the, I do think that Oklahoma City at their best, their ceiling is higher than Indiana. When they're moving the ball well and they're knocking down shots. And for the record, like if you're in a matchup like this where you're a substantial underdog, you're trying to create variance. you're trying to create margin. And all the stuff you're talking about, I agree with you.

They won this game in the margins. They won this game, forcing turnovers, blocking shots at the rim, and ball pressuring Sheigildas Alexander so much that he looked exhausted by the end of the game. And this is all low-hanging fruit in basketball that's available for basically everybody. Anybody can pick up the ball full court. Anybody can be aggressive in rotation and play passing lanes. There's a certain athletic minimum you need to have. but anybody's capable of taking advantage of these margins.

And to me, that's been the story of the Pacers this entire postseason run, is they have been so good on the margins. They're making it so that their variance is much lower than other teams because they're getting so much of that low-hanging fruit every single game. So Oklahoma City is two and four on the road in the last three playoff rounds. So we have found the whole, you know, every boxer, every baseball player, even Barry Bonds when he was on cattle steroids, There's a, there's a, there's a, there's part of the strikes, though, and he can't hit.

Usually for a batter, it's on the hands. And we're looking for, where's the hole in Oklahoma City's game? And it's this young team on the road. There is a great variance, what you get at home and what you get on the road. And we found it. And Indiana is a tremendously good home team. It just, it's, it's, I got to tell you, Miles Turner doesn't get a lot of love. You know, his aesthetic, he'll hit the corner of three.

But that dude in the second half, I mean, Holmgren was great early, but Miles Turner is one of those guys that in the league, everybody knows about Miles Turner. I mean, if he's on the market, Lakers included, there'll be multiple suitors for Miles Turner. Everybody in the league gets it. But on this team, you know, like tonight, we're watching McConnell and we're on Halliburton.

And we're always watching Seacum. I thought in the second half, I thought Miles Turner was huge. I agree. The specific dynamic he struggled with a little bit in this series is Carlisle has him coming way out to the perimeter to show at the level of these ball screens. And the thunder guards are just so fast that he's had some trouble containing them there. But in that second, in that second half, it was almost like he found his second win to where he was moving a little better. So he wasn't losing contain as much.

Carlisle had him start to be more aggressive and attack the ball in more of like a blitz too, which worked. He forced a couple turnovers that way. And then at the rim, like, Miles Turner has always been one of the best, like, shot blockers in the league. He always racks up high shot block totals and got Chet at the rim. That close out. He's got crazy length. That close out on the three-point shot from Chet late. That was a big one.

The stuff with Mathuron and in McConnell, I find really fascinating. The reason why I was keyed in on them to start the series is when you're playing these young, super athletic teams like Oklahoma City, the guys that become super important are your athletes. The guys that have like some sort of physical trait that's tough to match up. with. T.J. McConnell is unassuming, but he is actually one of the very best guards in the NBA, beating people off the dribble. So he's immensely valuable in this matchup because he can get that first bit of dribble penetration that breaks down Oklahoma City's defense. And he's such a good staunch athlete, like in terms of like his, but being a fire hydrant, low center of gravity

guy, he can pressure the ball and pick up full court. He had three steals on baseline in bounds in this game. Those were huge sequences in this game. And then Ben Matherin, same sort of thing. He is capable against a very athletic thunder team of getting to his spots and rising up and knocking down shots because he's a supreme athlete that can handle the ball. Nemhard is a good ball handler who's not a supreme athlete and Niece Smith is an elite athlete who's not a good ball handler. T.J. and Ben are both great athletes and great ball handlers. And that's made them very valuable in this matchup. And again, like, like Ben, that like we're, we just saw a young player put up a massive 28 point game in a

bus win NBA finals game. Like that is a huge moment for a young player there. And like as far as like zooming out and looking at the series, like I still lean Oklahoma City. We have seen before teams like, you know, the series this actually reminds me a lot of is Cleveland in

2015 versus Golden State where Golden State is clearly the better team but they're young and they're inexperienced and it's their first finals appearance and they look a little shook from the environment. Yeah, yeah. And LeBron goes up to one on them. Now obviously Indiana doesn't have the LeBron element

but there was obviously way less talent down the roster. But Indiana does have more veteran experience or an older team. But what happens with Indiana here is they're up to one but Golden State was the better team. They came in one game four. Then they went home in one game five.

Then they went back to Cleveland and they won in game six. I am going to give Indiana a good chance to win at least one more home game. So I do think this has a good chance to go seven. But I would still make Oklahoma City the favorite at this point. Before I kick it to you, just so you know, the Thunder are still from Draft Kings, minus 2.30 to win the series.

And the Thunder are minus six favorites in Game 4? Where are you at in the series moving forward at this point? Well, you know, Game 7s in Oklahoma City. And they're really good at home. And again, bench guys, rotational guys are different players at home. I mean, Indiana's bench in the second quarter of night was insane. I mean, it was literally, I mean, I think. I think Carlisle was shook.

I mean, it was just like, wow, that's one of their best quarter of the playoffs. I think, like, one of the things that was a little surprising to me, I thought Oklahoma City looked tired in the fourth. Oh, yeah. And now, now the first half, it was 6460, I think. The pace was in, it would totally Indiana's pace. It slowed down as games can. Is that situationally as the possessions get very, very big.

but you noticed it too. I thought OKC looked a little gassed in the fourth. They had a bad fourth quarter. Yeah, so that's the advantage of ball pressure. Like, there's been a lot of talk about the coverages. I have had my concerns with how they've used Turner because I think Turner's a very good shot blocker. So I want him at the rim. I don't think he's particularly fast.

So I don't want him on the perimeter. So like I've wanted him sitting further back. But a lot of the full court ball pressure stuff has also had some downsides in that one of the things Oklahoma City will do is they'll have Hartenstein come out or check come out. and they'll screen like almost at half court while Shea's battling the ball pressure. And then he gets ahead of steam from like 60 feet away from the rim. And he got a lot of layups early in the game out of stuff like that. And so there's a downside to ball pressure in that you can beat ball pressure and get dribble penetration.

The upside with ball pressure is in the big picture, which is for 48 minutes in front of that crazy home crowd when you're facing knee Smith and Mathurin and Nemhart and all these guys just in your jersey, the entire game down the stretch, you just don't have the legs because beating that ball pressure just takes it out of your legs. And so there's no doubt that like Indiana played the long game tonight. And Oklahoma City controlled at various points. But down the stretch, Shea had his hands on his knees. He was trying to grift a little bit more down the stretch looking for foul calls. Like you can tell he was tired. You know, the other thing that, you know, this is just something you don't talk about

a lot. We don't. Analyst don't. But I remember talking to, um, Mark Warkantine, I covered him at UNLB with Jerry Tarkini, and he was an executive in the league. And he used to always say, the most underappreciated part of those great Michael Jordan Bulls teams was their length. He was like Rodman was long. Pippen was wrong.

Luke Longley was long. Everybody but Steve Kerr was long, like Ron Harper. And he was just like, they just got their hand on the balls. Indiana is long. When Topin, Seyakum, Turner, Halliburton's long. Tonight, just to show you their length, OKC had four blocks.

Indiana had 11. OKC had six steals. Indiana had 13. How many balls? How many times in this game? Did you see the ball loose around the free throw line? And it was just a pacer that got their hand on it and keep. When they,

there are certain, I mean, T.J. McConnell is obviously not long, but he's feisty and quick. And he's fast. gets his hand and he's fast. But dude, when they've got Turner and Halliburton and Toppin, that is the length of the Pacers.

And I thought it really frustrated OKC. Chet Holmgren had multiple shots blocked. So we don't talk a lot about that. Rebounding is a lot of things beyond length. But length gives you those extra possessions and touches and disruptions. Blocks and steals tonight, I mean, are just totally one-sided. And I think, again, that's stealing points, which I thought the Pacers did.

Yeah, like there was a play where J. Dub got a clean corner catch out of the left corner. You might remember this one in the in the first half. And, or no, it was in the second half. It was in the early part of the second half. And J. Dub drove baseline and had a dunk. But Tyrese came over and Tyrese has long arms. Like, Tyrese has got length to your point. He's the longest point guard in the league.

Yeah, and he's got reasonable vertical athleticism too. So he got up and he contested J. Dub and J. Dub missed the dunk. He missed the dunk. And there have been a few plays in this series. Like I actually think Halliburton has been a very good defensive player in this entire playoff run. Like he's been sneaky really good because he's the thing with, and this is to Carlisle's credit, everyone's committed to doing the job.

And then Tyrese like plays hard. Like he's got his limitations. He's not very big and strong. And it kind of looks like a chicken run around with his head cut off sometimes on defense. But like he's got the length to be impactful in that in that situation. And yeah, like there was a there was a stretch there late in the game. Carlisle rides topping for that exact reason, like him being able to go over the top of Oklahoma City on offense or meet somebody at the summit at the rim on the other end.

Like those were, those have been huge parts of Indiana success throughout this entire postseason run. And again, like, you want to know how you play passing lanes with length because all of a sudden it looks open. The passer makes the read and it's not open because you have the ability to close that ground. The one thing I will say, and this is one of the reasons why I still lean towards Oklahoma City to win the series. There was a stretch in the third quarter where I thought Oklahoma City really leveraged their athleticism.

Yeah, they're a good third quarter team too. They've done this in the playoffs multiple times. Yes. And like going back even, I thought game two felt like the entire night felt like that. I don't think Indiana can beat Oklahoma City in Oklahoma City in a must win game. Because I think they can leverage their defense

and physicality. overall athleticism to the point that's like almost too much for them to overcome. So I think Indiana's pathway is they have to win the two home games. They absolutely can for the record. I'm not saying Oklahoma City is like the surefire going to still win the series. I lean towards Oklahoma City. But Indiana, I think, has to win on Friday. And I think they have to win next week on Thursday.

I think that's their path. Well, in the first six minutes of the game, Oklahoma City was very disruptive. The Pacers were frustrated. the starters, they just weren't getting good looks. So, I mean, Oklahoma City, when they weren't gassed late, and they're disruptive. There's no getting around it. They're just fast and long, and it's almost collegiate,

like we've talked about. It doesn't look like other defenses. So, you know, I just don't want to fall for this because I fell for it with Denver and Boston, and I'm like, oh, these are going to be dynasties. And there are holes in Oklahoma City. I mean, they'll probably lose Jalen Williams eventually. they can't pay everybody and they're going to pay Holmgren because he's just, you know, he's just physically a different,

there's not a lot of him out there. They're going to pay SGA and you know how it works now. You can't pay three guys. You know, Boston's going to go through this. So, I mean, it's, I know a lot of people look at Oklahoma City and think, oh, boy, this is going to be something. They're going to be bad for the league. And my take is this series is great. I mean, we have two of the games in this series.

They have been all timers. And I also think. I think Indiana is a real team. I mean, I'm watching Matherin tonight. And again, I think he's got a little bit of Westbrook, but he's not out of control. He's a little bit more refined at this age. And he was a better college player than Westbrook.

Again, more defined. And I think he was the Pack 12 player of the year, if I recall. Well, then wouldn't he like? I can't remember, actually. Yeah, he was a great player. But my takeaway, I watched him and I'm like, oh, they're going to be good. Halliburton and him and McConnell and Seyakum, it's like, Indiana's going no. wear this i i don't know i i've i said this going back to the cleveland series i love watching

the pacer's play i love their style i love their i love haliburton um i just there's just there's something about a team there's a joy when indiana plays they are having a really good time and i think it just comes through the tv i 100% agree like i i understand some of the the the the negativity surrounding the finals in the sense that like it lacks some of that juice for you know, especially for casual fans. Game two felt small. Doesn't have huge names.

Yeah. Yeah. And game two is super boring. Like it like in it like in it obviously has not been hitting great TV ratings. But there is a natural ebb and flow with the cycle of the NBA as stars age in and out. And we're definitely in one of those lulls right now. But I do think that the Pacers are providing

an excellent showcase for another up and coming team in the Eastern Conference. and by the way, the East is pretty wide open. Like, you could argue Indy has every bit as good a chance to make it back to the finals next year as Oklahoma City does with how open things are in the Eastern Conference, right? I love the point you made about Oklahoma City. Like, it will get tougher. Like, I think Oklahoma City needs to get this one because the reality is, is that once you start, to your point, if you pay all three of those guys maxes, and by the way, they're not going to be regular maxes. These are going to be all NBA players.

They're going to be super max. That's right. And so once you pay all those guys, they're going to basically have to surround them with a bunch of guys on rookie contracts. I think they're going to end up using all these draft picks they have to just cycle role players through. And they're going to be hunting like three, four year college guys that play for major programs like Kansas and Villanova that they can trust to come in and play role player basketball. That's what I think that they're going to end up. That's what I think Sam Presti is going to end up doing. And so their margin will get smaller because they won't be surrounded by as much talent.

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Hey, it's us to Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, new? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it.

We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty. yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember.

I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Oh, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes.

I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, Hey Jonas, and then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Dave. and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band

with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game.

This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions,

the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slicelife 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis. And I know firsthand because I competed there myself.

I'm Renee Stubbs. And on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay. Jen Chinchin win. I mean, she went down. three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay.

Listen, Lena Rubakina is arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. I wanted to move on to the Knicks.

So I see this report this morning. And it's from Shams talking about how they're just calling up around all these big shot coaches in the league. Jason Kidd, Ema, Udoka, Quinn Snyder, Chris Finch. What do you make of this bizarre behavior from the Knicks right now? I'm not a tinfoil hat guy, but James Dolan, who's been in a band, I'm not sure if he still is, views himself as an artist. and that's why he is, his, his greatest achievement is not the Nix. I mean, he inherited the cable vision from his dad, right?

It's the sphere in Vegas, which is a remarkable, have you been there? I think you have been there six times, Colin. I absolutely love it. Yeah. So it's a remarkable musical engagement achievement all time in the world. And that's really where his heart is. Irving Aves off, a former great promoter. Now I think he's MGM management.

is one of his closest friends. He was, you know, he was a, had a record label. That's who, that's who James Dolan is. So when he wants to get a GM, he goes after a star, Phil Jackson. Then he wanted Steve Kerr and Amari Stoddemeier on bad knees out of Phoenix. And Tibbs isn't his kind of guy. So who does he go after? Jason Kidd, who's a star.

He's interested in Kevin Durant, who's a star. That's who James Dolan is. He hangs around stars. He loves stars. He's a creative. This is not a criticism. But I think he listened to his players grumble. You know, he sat down with his players.

And again, he relates to artists and athletes and stars. Just go look at the history. And when he was doing the sphere for two years, he was disengaged from the team. And they got very patient and very pragmatic and very Villanova-ish. This went right up. And that's Tibbs. And so you get rid of. Tibbs, it's not the same culture. It's not the same team. You still have the Villanova guys,

but it won't feel the same. So it just feels like James, and I don't, I almost, you know, he reminds me a little bit of Jim Ursay in that Ursay would rather sit with his guitar and hang out with Dylan outside of football more than anything else. And I think James Dolan's a little bit of that. And I think he's an emotional guy. He's an artist. He relates to artists. and he listens to his stars, and he didn't have a plan. And I think it's a big, big mistake. This, by the way, this is what every Nick fan dreaded is that when he came back from the sphere, he would get hands on.

And there are various reports on who has their fingerprints on this, but they're not getting rid of Tibbs. He just signed a new deal without Dolan, you know, acquiescing to a suggestion. or making the move himself. So in the end, this is what the Knicks, man, this league's crazy. Owners in the NFL and the NBA, you know, that all owners now, Jason, are billionaires.

It was 10 years ago, they weren't. They were worth 600 million or 800 million. They wouldn't blow out staffs. They didn't want to write a $46 million dollar check. That is a rounding error now to these owners. And they're all, I see it in the NFL all the time. Guys will just blow out staffs. David Tepper.

write a $60, $80 million check. You donors didn't want to do that 8, 10, 12 years ago. They do now. So I don't know who they're going to land. They, I mean, they've been turned down by seven coaches, all the good ones, Finch and Emil Duka and Jason Kidd, and they're just getting turned down by everybody. Yeah, Matt Isbiyah blew out of staff twice within two years of owning the team.

It's completely ridiculous. I, you know, it's fascinating because, like, I tried to look at it in a very open-minded way, because like I actually do think Jason kids a better coach now than he gets credit for. A couple years ago, I wasn't super high on him, but he just like anybody else as a competitor has been doing it for a while now

and he's gotten pretty good at it. Like I is looking at the Knicks for a second. Like I agree with you in terms of the, the kind of topsy-turvy, unstable nature with which you look and you portray to people when you fire your coach in a situation like this. But I also think Tibbs left some meat on the bone with this Knicks team. I thought they underachieved all season.

Like right out the gates they underachieved. Rod. He's not a creative offensively. He's not. The team got very predictable offensively. I thought the major issue with this team schematically was spacing and it actually impacted both ends of the floor. On offense, what you're mentioning in terms of creative offense, what he did on offense in terms of his creativity, the spacing for this team was extremely poor. It's made life very difficult. But it had a trickle-down effect in the sense that poor spacing also affects your transition defense. like if you don't have your guys situated in proper spaces on the floor then on misses and turnovers you don't have guys in position to be back in transition defense and the pacers annihilated them in transition and worse than ever in game six like embarrassing fashion in game six as siacum and

everyone else was just getting run out layup after run out dunk after run out layup so like I did think there was like a defensible case with to move on from tips to more of a a tactician I actually see Jason Kidd as a solid option in the sense that he was a master of modern four-out spacing with Luca when he was there, which actually I think is a really natural fit with Brunson. And Brunson played for kid before. So there's like some natural stuff there. And then he did a good job with transition defense with the Mavs, despite them not being super athletic. So I'd give him credit for that. That would work.

The thing there is it's just unrealistic. And if I'm Jason Kidd, why would, like, I don't actually see the Nix as that great of a job. like insane New York pressure. The roster is really good, but it's not amazing. It's not like- And all by the way, Mikhail Bridges wants a new contract. O.G.'s getting paid. Brunson's getting paid.

Like Mitchell Robinson, these guys are getting paid. Like that Dallas thing, Lively's not getting paid. Cooper Flag won't get paid. I don't know if Max Christie doesn't cost much. AD's getting paid, but you get 24 and 11. Like, I look at Dallas and I'm like, I get excellence when they're healthy, and I get an incredible top end with lively and flag.

I know what the Knicks are. And there's a ceiling and I see it all the time. Yeah, exactly. Like I don't see it as being the kind of job that Jason Kidd would be willing to basically sabotage his situation and force his way there. And then like the other names I saw, I didn't even particularly like like, like EMA Udoca is a motivator. That's like his primary role. I don't think that's a specific need for the Nix. Like, I think the specific thing the Nix need is just someone to come in and take them to the next level in terms of their offensive organization and their spacing, which will lead to them having a bunch of additional benefits and transition defense.

I understand there's a hesitancy to call a guy like Mike Malone. And the reason why is because he has a reputation for being a hard ass and Tibbs was kind of a hard ass. And like, I don't think they want to go down that route again. But there's like hard ass and then there's Tibbs. Like Mike Malone leaned on his starter's big minutes, but still not even close to what Tibbs did. And one of the things I'll say about Mike Malone, he was an excellent defense and spacing coach. He made a championship defense out of non-championship defensive talent. And they were always consistently one of the best floor spacing teams in the league.

And they were very good. And again, we can, we got to at least acknowledge Yokic was there. So Yokic makes it a lot easier, obviously. But he specifically was very good at making spacing opportunities. out of non-spacers, guys like Aaron Gordon, guys like Christian Brown, guys like Bruce Brown over the years, guys like Russell Westbrook even. So like fitting a guy like Josh Hart, Mitchell Robinson, some of these non-shooting types of players, even Mikhail Bridges, who has struggled a lot as a shooter in this postseason run. Like I actually think Mike Malone is a really good fit for this

next team. I think he's a completely reasonable option that doesn't involve you doing something insane like calling around the league because here's what gets crazy. Let's say you call the Mavs and they're like, okay, sure, let's talk about Jason Kidd. What are you going to offer us. We already acknowledge this is not a championship roster. So you're going to give up assets for a coach. You need players. You need talent in there. So like it's specifically defensive talent. Your front court. So I don't really understand what the end game is here. Yeah. I just I I am on the short list of people that think Dallas is going to be really good, really fast. I think flag and lively are, you know, they're Duke guys. They're going to be

quick learners. They play at the highest level of competition collegiately. I think one going to be one's 21 or 22. He's going to be a rim protector for the next decade. So Cooper Flag can be out in transition, won't have to worry about being down low and getting jammed up, which has always been what LeBron loves. He doesn't want to be messed up in that junk. He wants that ball out and up the court.

So, and I just, you know, P.J. Washington, Christy, if Kyrie comes back, I'm not sure what they're going to do with him. A.D., I would forget the taxes, forget everything else. I would not lead Dallas. I think Dallas is a good job. The situation that's fascinating to me is Houston because I think right now San Antonio is about ready to pop. So I like San Antonio and they could get Janice.

And I think, okay, see a set. And I think Houston's going to be in that group of three young teams a little lost because Jalen Green. I'm in Thompson's excellent. Schengoon's excellent. but there's just a lot of athleticism that's not very good in a half-court game. And I think O'KC has popped.

San Antonio's going to pop. And I, so I could, if I'm, if I'm Adoka, I would consider the job. I think Houston's one of those that, like the national media, we hover in, we drop in, we go, oh, like Houston. I didn't like what I saw. I'll be honest.

And I think you can push them around. I don't think they have a lot of half court possessions that are just sort of lost. You don't get good looks. They look a little disorganized. But Jason, kid to me, the next five years in Dallas are going to be fascinating with just this trajectory that goes through the roof. The roster is weird because it's kind of imbalanced in the sense that they just have an absurd amount of front court talent.

Like you don't need lively. Gafford, Anthony Davis, P.J. Washington, and Cooper Flag. Like, that's five starting caliber players that all play the four or the five. So, like, I, I do see an imbalance there, but there's an insane amount of talent. And I actually go the other way there, which is, like, they can afford to go into training camp and just bring all these guys in and start playing. And basically look around the league and be like, who's going to throw us the godfather offer for PJ Washington for, uh, Daniel Gaffer for Anthony Davis? Like, you could argue that AD is going to be the target. that someone goes after.

Like, because AD's hurt now, so he's got that classic, everyone's down on him. They think he's old. They think he's beat up. AD comes out of training camp looking like he's in great shape, motivated, kicks everybody's butt for a couple of months. He instantly becomes like a dude you could flip for an enormous mountain of assets. And so I look at Dallas as a very, very healthy situation moving forward. It's not the same Luca Donchitz were right on the doorstep of the title,

but they do have a lot of big picture potential. If you miss the hard hits of football pads, faster play clocks, and nonstop action, this is what you need to be watching. Arena Football 1 on Vice TV. Football at full speed. The fields tighter, the plays are faster. The hits come quick. It's eight on eight Iron Man style. No downtime.

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We have some big news. What's the news, name? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it.

We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should, call it.

Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential

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We got a report from Shams today that Kevin Durant and his business partner, Rich Clyman, are kind of canvassing the league looking for potential opportunities. the five names that were thrown out in the Shams report were the Houston Rockets, San Antonio Spurs, the Miami Heat, the Minnesota Timberwolves, and the New York Knicks. Where did your head go when you saw that report this morning? Well, I think he works everywhere.

I think there's very few players that fit everywhere, and KD is one of them. He doesn't necessarily need to be the soul of the team. He doesn't need the ball constantly in his hands. You get great length, a willing defender. 24, 26. I think KD fits everywhere. You know, if I was KD,

New York, I think he fits New York well, but Brunson has the ball in his hands. I mean, in his mind is he thinking, Brunson's got some Westbrook, like dribble the air out of the ball and I'm sitting in the corner. Like, I could see him, like, I've been through that. You know, Kyrie, who he played with also,

can be a little bit like that. So I could see KD just saying, you know, because he's got the leverage here, I could see him saying, I've kind of done the ball-centric guard thing. I just don't want it again. Pat Riley and Spolster are very convincing people. Miami's a great place to play.

No state tax. It's a winter league. A lot of warm weather. Like Miami's a really attractive place out east. But I'm a KD fan. I think he fits in a lot of places. And Minnesota, he's a lot of. obviously fits.

And, you know, we've talked about this. Like, LeBron and his prime was great, but he had to be the offensive ecosystem. You had to, Chris Bosch had to reduce, you know, got marginalized. Kevin Love can get marginalized. Guys, get away from the rim. You know, Kyrie Irving, you can't have the ball. So Kevin never provides that kind of obstacle. Like, he just kind of fits.

So I can tell you this. if if you were a GM and you talk to a coach or players, a lot of guys would raise their hands and say get KD. Because I think he loves basketball. He's a good teammate. He's got a good sense of humor. He doesn't need to be the media darling. I think he's really liked and respected in the league.

I 100% agree. I love the point you made about his fit. Like he, all five of these teams, the basketball makes a lot of sense. There's one, the one team that I was like, that doesn't make as much of a sense in terms of the. The basketball fit to me was the Spurs. Because it's like, I don't love the idea of putting a super thin front court player that likes the perimeter next to another super thin front court player that likes the perimeter.

I wasn't a huge fan of that one. It also just doesn't really fit San Antonio's timeline. So the Spurs one was weird for me. The heat, I like the fit. I just don't know why KD would go there because it just feels like another move to a team that's not good enough to win the title. Like I'm just not sure that it like is Kevin Durant, Tyler Harrow, Bama at a bio.

Is that enough to win the title? I don't think so. When I'm watching that kid, Benedict. Matherin for Indy tonight. I mean, I'm not trying to overreact here, but when I'm watching him and I'm like, Jesus, he's just a kid. Like, you're going to get this two out of three games next year.

Like this is this. I mean, by the way, again, I think, wasn't he the third leading score on the team or fourth leading score this year? Like, he, coming into the series, he was actually the highest per minute score for the pace. in this playoff run because he was in a shorter role, but his like points per 36 minutes was the highest on the team. Yeah.

Okay. So I watch him and I think, oh, he's going to become a full-time starter and it will be Seacum, Halley and Matherin are their three leading scores. So I mean, I'm looking at the east and I'm like, I think Indiana is going to take a leap next year.

You know, they'll play with a finals level confidence. So I just, I don't think, I just, I'm not just saying this because they're up two to one. I look at Indiana and I'm like, man, that is a team with, I mean, outside of, I mean, Syacom, he is what he is.

I feel like 75% of Indiana, all those players will be better next year. I mean, Seacom's game is his game. They're better than they were last year. Yeah, it's just like, all of them. I was just so impressed. with them tonight. So we can start talking about with Tatum out next year, it's going to run through Indy. We've got to be honest about this. It's going to run through Indy. They are deep. They're well coached. Most of their players are ascending. The East is running through Indy. Yeah, I agree. And I don't

see the heat as like an obvious like, oh, he goes there and he's all of a sudden the favorite in the Eastern Conference. I like the Rockets fit. I think his skill set is desperately needed as a guy who's a shot creator, like shoot from the perimeter. He also brings length at the rim, which is not like the rockets are a big strong team. They're not like a long arms team. Like Jabari Smith Jr. is like the one guy they have that offers the rockets need him. Jason, I would argue the rockets need him more than any other team that he would play for. They need him.

Their half court offense gets lost a lot. Yeah. And he would go in there and immediately vault them into top tier championship contention. So that move makes some sense. I will say by far out of these five teams, my favorite fit is the Timberwolves. It's a similar lack of redundancy in the sense that he brings kind of like exactly what the team doesn't have, which is a rock solid secondary ball handler next to Ant, who can really generate shots for his team. But they can surround KD with elite super physical defense, which is what he hasn't had in these other destinations.

And also similarly, Nasreid, not super vertical, Julius Randall not super vertical. Rudy Gobert is vertical, but like they, they, Kevin Durant would be a guy at the four spot different from Kat last year, different from Nas, who brings real vertical length to the table where you can imagine Jaden McDaniels, Kevin Durant and Rudy Gobert on the floor together in that front line. And it's like all arms, just everywhere.

And it would just be really, really difficult to handle. But it's going to be really interesting. I'm hopeful, I'm hopeful that we get a pretty quick like a set of action here in late June where we find out where all these guys land. but Colin, I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to join us tonight. It was good to see you.

Colin, it was great to see you, man. Great to see you, buddy. The volume. Thanks so much for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, take a moment, rate and review. Hey, guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe.

I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts.

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And at the French Open, only the toughest survive. I'd know. I competed there for decades. Join me, Renee Stubbs, on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast for no nonsense breakdowns of the biggest matches, the toughest players, and the moment's set to find Roland Garris. She's an outsider to win the French frame. And she likes Clay.

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We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was harmed. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in, he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love.

This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.