The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Richard Sherman Podcast - 2013 Legion of Boom vs. 2015 No Fly Zone: Richard Sherman & TJ Ward DEBATE Seahawks-Broncos defenses

Episode Date: March 6, 2026

Two of the best defensive players of their era, Richard Sherman and T.J. Ward, finally go head-to-head on one of the biggest questions in NFL history: Who had the best defense—the 2013 Seattle Seahawks’ Legion of Boom or the 2015 Denver Broncos’ No Fly Zone? Sherm and T.J. break it all down, position by position. From Seattle’s legendary secondary with Earl Thomas and Kam Chancellor to Denver’s stacked D led by Von Miller and DeMarcus Ware, they cover turnovers, sacks, offensive support, and who really had the tougher path to the Super Bowl.It gets real as both All-Pros passionately defend their squads. Sherman argues the Legion of Boom took over the league with insane takeaways and football IQ, while Ward makes the case for the No Fly Zone’s relentless pass rush and lock-down coverage. They even dig into that unforgettable Super Bowl vs. Peyton Manning and how their defenses matched up against elite QBs like Drew Brees and Cam Newton.So, what do you think—Legion of Boom or No Fly Zone? Drop your pick in the comments! All lines are provided by Hard Rock Bet. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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We're going to give you a free agency, NFL draft, and everything else that's going on in this incredible NFL offseason. Stick with us. Be here. Hit that sub button if you're new. And also notification gain so you can be notified when everything's going down. Appreciate you. Welcome back to the Richard Chairman podcast, and today we got an incredible guest, T.J. Ward, former De La Salle High School, former Oregon Duck, all pro for the Cleveland Browns,

former Denver Broncos. I mean, you've been everywhere, TJ, brother. Appreciate you joining me. Hey, man, no doubt. Thanks for having me, sir. Man, it's a pleasure. Great seeing you doing your thing on every platform, man. I'm trying to catch up, man.

I'm trying to catch up. I appreciate you coming on, brother. I see you grinding, got your own pot, doing your thing. It's going to be a fun discussion. Man, man, I can't wait. Always is, man. I tell people all the time, man. We go back to college when we was battling on Rainbow 6 on the PlayStation 2 back in the day, man.

Take me back, man. We used to be growing. Man, good times. Good times. It seemed like forever ago. But, man, nonetheless, man, I'm glad to be here. Glad to be here. Yeah.

So let's commence with the show. Let's commence with the show, man. It's been a few weeks since we've been kind of going back and forth on our opinions about our great defenses. And let's get that understood first, man. We both play for two of the greatest defenses ever, right? That's an honor and a privilege. And I know you feel how I feel about my defense and my secondary,

and you feel how you feel about your defense and your secondary. But nonetheless, man, a handful of amazing players on both ends, but we must figure out who's number one in the debate. So let me do it. We gotta figure that out. It's gonna be a fun debate. I can't wait to sift through it, line by line,

and figure it out because leave, leave and Skip just wanted to start some stuff. That's what it was. Leave and Skip just wanted to start some nonsense. And I said, and I love Leave to death. Leave was with us on Amazon at first and then things, you know, didn't situate like they should have and didn't work out, but he's doing a great job with Skip. But I was like, when he said it, I was like, I mean, I want to be with you, Lee, but everybody

going to say, I told somebody else this, they were like, man, he said he was better than you. He said, I said, you ain't going to find a corner in this world that don't say they the best. And rightfully so. Like, leave was nice too. And people don't give leave enough credit. was like that, like that. You're talking about 10 pick sixes.

Lebe strapping. He's talking crazy. If it wasn't for the off the field stuff, they would talk about Leeds so much differently. And that's what I tell people all the time. Lee played at a high level. But then he said the whole, hey, the secondary was better and he would have been the best on both secondaries. And I was like, Lee, now, no, no, no, no, no, no, go to two.

We had some guys over there now, Lee. Yeah. We could play. What episode was that? Was that? I was wondering because people was like, asked me like, like, where did this come from?

I'm like, maybe it was something on the grid on or when we did the top. I know me and Leib had did like a TikTok cut or something. We had named the top defenses, right? I had you guys at two. I had this number one. Was that it?

Uh-huh. No, no, no. This was Leap and Skip. And it was on their show, their show. and, you know, Skip, skip trying to start stuff. Skip's like, you know, I thought you were better than Sherm. I just thought you were better, you know, and it's fine.

But then Lee started to speak about the two secondaries and said, you know, speaking about himself and, you know, how, you know, if he had to say anything, he'd taken him all day. Either secondary, anybody in either secondary, I'm taking me. I'm the best player on either secondary. And I was like, okay. hey, Lee, like, we'll go. And then he was like, no flies on and what y'all did and how people would prefer to watch y'all.

And if he had to pick which secondary was better, he would say y'all secondary was better. And I was like, okay, Lee, now I got to say so. All right. I got to say so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got to say something. He said, like, our defense was sexier, right? And I don't think sexier would be the word I would use.

I would just be more, we were more. I would say just more in your face style, right? We had to play, man. We was pressing all the time. We blitzed a lot. We had two of the best pass rushes ever to play the game, DeMarciceware, and Vaughn Miller. And you know, pass rush and secondary goes hand in hand.

You know, whoever gets the creditors, whoever get the creditors. We lock shit down on the back end. They get the sacks. They get the quarterback first. We get the PBOs, the interceptions, or just the sacks, right? So, and the sacks is one thing that I'm going to lend to, you know, not only just the D-Ns in the pressure, but, you know, it's a secondary stat as well because, you know, we got to do what we got to do on the back end and a lot of occasions to make those sacks happen. So, and, you know, I like to pride myself in being such a great blister.

And, I mean, I had two sacks that season, you know, a few pressures. But, you know, I was always had to be accounted for. in the pass rush. Right. So, you know, I think we had 52 sacks that year. 52 sacks that year. Just going over the quick basis, right? You guys had, you know, points per game.

You got us. 14.4 or 18.5. Total yards, y'all had us 273 to 283. Our 27 takeaways to your 39. Our 14 picks to your 28 picks, right? Hey, when you look at that, y'all got it right but the only thing that i i would uh eject in those stats and and i say you know how many times we had to go on the field because of our giveaways right you don't like to say

what the offense you know how the offense attributes to great defense but i have to say that that that matters sir i mean i have to say that matters just because it is what it is right it's a fact Like when you hit the field more, when you have to play a certain style of defense to not only push opposing offenses out of scoring range, but you play a style that we have to get what we have to get right now. Like we don't have the time to or the luxury to trap offenses, right? You guys had a lot of turnovers. We can't deny that. We can't deny that. But I feel that you guys had the luxury provided by your offense not turning the ball over.

And I'm not trying to down our offense like that because, you know, I always say this in every interview. When we needed something from our offense, whether it was the last drive, whether it was a touchdown or first down, they came through in critical moments. So they did what they had to do in those instances. But like 31, I think it was 31 turnovers to Seattle, 2013. Seattle Seahawks was 19, which was the fourth fewest. And ours were the fourth highest. But that's, see, that's where I'm going to go. I'll accept what you arguing.

But I will raise you. Did you, have you ever heard of 2000 Baltimore Raven? You know who played quarterback for them for that season? I do. And I'm glad you brought that up, but finish it. They played two guys. Yeah, it was Trent Dillfer, believe, right? Trent Dillford for half the year and Tony Banks for half the year.

Tony Banks for half the season. Yeah, correct. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It wasn't, not scoring a lot of points. Not scoring a lot of points. They had a stretch. But what they did do, they protected the football.

No, they did. Yeah, they were, they had the- 19 interceptions between them. They had how many interceptions? 19. 19 picks. But they didn't have, I think they only had four fumbles. They were like the number one in the league in protecting the football, running the ball, right?

Maybe running the football, but they had 19 interceptions. So 19, let's put them at 22 turnovers. I mean, that's not 31. This is a whole different league. But what I'm saying is, and this, and this. this situation, we're saying y'all, they, they had, we had 19, y'all had 31. We also added 12 takeaways. So we gave them 12 more possessions. We gave them 12 more possessions. And I would, and I would, I would argue because I want to, I want to clear this misnobroop, because I get

tired of people saying, y'all just setting zone all day. Like that, boy, on third down, we in man, just like everybody else. Everybody in the National Football League, third and five, three, to, to maybe seven, eight, just about everybody playing man. After that, it might go zone. You might go a little, you know, third and ten plus. You might go loose two. You might go three. You might go a lot of stuff.

But third and five, we and man to man. We and man and man. And we played man just, and we played press. And any time you didn't have a number two to receive it to your side and you got corner, you and man. You and man. You got him. If he go up top, that's you.

If he want to dig, that's you. If he went to slant, that's you. If he catch that rock, that's on. on you. But so I want to give that. And we were as in your face, talk shit as anybody in the league. We taking a ball, talking crazy, talking, I mean, in the Super Bowl, we was talking reckless to Payton and all them boys. Because we didn't like, we didn't like how they was talking in the media that week. I mean, you talk about, the shit, the shit I said to Crabtree in the NFC Championship. It was, we was talking. Yeah. It was talking

cash. Yeah. And we running and hitting. We running in hitting. Y'all was running a hitting too. You were. And Dary and y'all was back there smack it. Yeah. Everybody know what Camden done. It's legendary. Earl was out there hitting. And then we can go through the front.

I want to, I wanted to keep it in the secondary for a second. But y'all, y'all had the two Hall of Famers up front. We had, we had Chris Clemens was a great rusher. Our starters were at end were Red Bryant and Chris Clemens, then me banged. And some dogs right there. And Mike Bennett and Cliff Avril. Red and me bang some dogs, for sure. Big dogs.

Big dogs. Big dogs, yeah. Mike B and Cliff, the year we won the Super Bowl were rotating. That was the first year they got there. They wasn't even starters yet. They didn't start until the next year. And that's what Bob people don't understand. That's how deep the D-line was.

Them two dudes was probably our best rushers. I mean, our best rushers. And they didn't even start. Yeah. I mean, shit, we had, you know, Shaq Barrett coming off. And first round pick, Shane Ray. Yeah. Shane Ray was coming off.

And then, you know, inside, I think it's, probably our most underrated part was Derek Wolf and Leake Jackson. And Sylvester, Sylvester Williams, too, inside then. Them three on a rotation, especially in pass rush situations, I felt were, you know, three of the best interior pass rushers in the game at that point, right? I agree. Like, they did their thing. But see, that's why I get, I kept it with the secondary for him because I was like, if we

talk secretary leave this is this is not going to be the discussion you think it is because i feel like we we took the ball away at a high level even byron maxwell had four interceptions earl had five uh i believe cam had three yeah and then i had eight yeah i mean cam had three yeah cam had three max had four earl had five but you got that's to that's to the that's to the cover three man you guys always had eyes on the ball and but what what i'm saying is i had i had four of them man. So that's what I'm saying. Like it's, I could, I could, I could listen to the cover three thing, but I could say we played a lot of man too. When we needed to, we need to really strap down, we strapped, especially when we playing San Francisco because they didn't have

no receivers like that. We like, hey, press. Everybody pressed. We man. Yeah, they ain't had no receivers. They ain't had no, no quarterback. All due respect. I mean, Colin, a cap, you should have seen what we did to that boy, uh, the year before. Right, but shit. We, we, you know who did have a quarterback? Who? The Broncos. They had a quarterback who set the record for touchdown passes with 55 and 5,500 or 300 yards. And we strapped them up too, strapped them up. I think that shit, I think, honestly, I think that game got out of hand early. You know, they snapped the ball over for the safety.

And your offense was scoring at will on them boys. They wouldn't, our offense scored like two touchdowns. Like, our offense didn't score until like the second quarter. Like, it was eight. Oh, the Malcolm, my dog, Mouc, shout out Mout, had his, uh, interception, what was that the third quarter for the touchdown? Yeah, it didn't get out of hand until the second half. Like, it was a close game until the second half.

I think it was eight nothing until middle of the second or middle of the, and I think that might have been our first touchdown from our offense and it was 15-0. Yeah. Like, it didn't get out of hand until late. We start punishing it, punishing them. But a lot of that game happened because we watched the tape of them boys. And I love Demarius and what he did and Decker and. and Welker and all them boys.

But when we watched them on tape, people was just getting tired. Like, that was the big thing from that game. Like, we were watching them and watching them beat the heck out of everybody and everybody was just getting tired. They was running simple stuff. They was running like day one, day two install of training camp.

Like, it wasn't like they was running some complicated, they were running dry, basic, slant flat, curl flat, like simple stuff, TJ. But everybody was, they was getting to the line quick, people trying to adjust, people trying to check, People ain't lined up and they just, efficient. No, it was a speed offense.

But that running game, the thing I say, they scored a lot of points, like you said, because, you know, they were on the ball, very high-tempo offense, like a Chip Kelly offense almost in the league, right? They could not run the ball. So expecting anything but past, you know, I think who was the running back they had that year? It wasn't No Sean

It was Monty Ball, it was Monty Ball It was Monty Ball It might have been in combos A couple people And CJ But yeah Yeah

But also We're gonna flip it And go to the Broncos Defense that year Right Once they got All them injuries out the way Von Miller didn't play in that game

Chris Harris didn't play in that game Derek Wolf didn't play in that game who else been playing that game Kevin Vickerson didn't play in that game Rahim Moore didn't play in that game would you not say that your offense really controlled the ball that game and really went up up and down the field with no turnovers against that Broncos defense?

No, I would not. I would tell you to watch the game. I would tell you they had a couple three-in-outs early in that game. They were not doing well. They were not moving the ball particularly well. We got held to three points, multiple drives early on. Like they were getting held to three point, three point.

Like it was eight oh because we had two field goals in a safety. Like, but I would say our offense, I mean, Russ threw for two touchdowns, I think 200 yards. Like it wasn't a crazy, crazy game for him by any stretch of imagination. You know what it was? Percy, Percy had a return touchdown. Yeah, that was, we had a defensive touchdown. We had a two-point conversion. So that's, that's 16.

So 16 of the 43, so that's, you know what I mean? Like, then the rest is the offense. I think Marshawn might have had two tugs. Like, but what I'm saying is in this general, in this defensive discussion, if we're talking about who played the game, like we played it, we played within the circumstances you're given. You're given the circumstances you're given and you play within them. And the circumstances we were given,

we played Drew Brees before we played Cap. We played Drew Brees. And guess what? He had 39 touchdowns, 5,000 yards to 12 interceptions that season. We played Drew in the division. We told him up. We tore him up. Like, Drew, you got to go.

And that's what we did to just about everybody who stepped in front of us. So we're not going to sit here and be like, man, y'all, who did you all play? Like, I don't know. Well, I mean, we just got a jacket. We had a Cam Newton in them boys, too. They was pretty prolific that year in offense, number one in offense. I think number two in Russian offense. something like that.

And now, you've seen the game. He couldn't do nothing at all. Right, but he still threw for 240. Oh, that was garbage time. The game was over. Right. You know, the game was over by then. He really, we really would have shut the matter.

I mean, they scored a touch. I can't say that. If you get the ball in your territory and you don't hold the offense to three points, then you fail. That's how I feel, right? Even if they get the ball in your territory, your job is to hold them, and field goal range. And we let Stu get a touchdown.

So I'm not going to say we wouldn't shut them out or nothing, but, you know, the 10 points that they did have, you know, one was from that touchdown from Stu and one was later in the game. But nonetheless, can't, huh? Go ahead. You know, Cam Newton, MVP, and a defense went out there and made us turn the ball over another two times,

right? That defense, Luke Kigley, going in the hall this year. I just seen Luke at the, The combine funny story going in the elevator. I'll tell that later, but you just walk in the elevator. You can press the button and look up Luke Keeley. It's the second time I ran into him on some crazy shit like that. But anyway, defense was stacked, two interceptions on that side.

I think overall we played a better team than y'all. Yeah, but nobody would say that. Like, if your argument is with Brown and. and whoever they had a receiver that year for Carolina. Like, nobody who would start in the league. And Greg Olson. You could say Greg Olson, but nobody who would start in the league

for any other team other than Carolina. What? Ted Gehan was smoking that year. I'm not saying he had number one. He's not a certified number one. They had Brown, Hollywood. What they called him? Hollywood Brown.

I forgot it. But they had a good three-man, Greg Olson, debatable Hall of. a famer it was strapped all game, strapped him up, like some LA gears. But the running game, I think, was that three-headed,

Jay Stool, even they had Fossey Whitaker on that team, the other fullback and Cam Newton was probably their most potent threat, for sure. For sure, was their most potent threat. But you're not, but that's what I'm saying, T.J. That's what I'm saying. It's we arguing things that cannot be argued because the 2015 Broncos are the most prolific offense in the NFL's history.

Not just that year. The NFL's history, the playoffs, too, they were still killing. Regular season. And that's like... Go ahead. What I'm saying is, if we ain't talking regular season, what the heck are we talking about? That's what records are broken. That's when they're figured.

They were killing throughout the playoffs. So let's not think, oh, they weren't scoring big points throughout the playoffs. just didn't get to that Super Bowl and score points because of us. They just ran into an immovable object. But they were doing it all season long. They set records. The Carolina Panthers didn't set no records. They don't got no players that you can remember outside of Jay Stewart, Cam Newton.

It was Cam Newton and the boys. The defense was the strength of that team. The Denver Broncos, the offense was one of the great. There's still records that have not been touched that that team had. They had three, was it four thousand on receivers? Because... Nah, hell, nah. No, they had at least three.

They had at least. The tidium was 1,000, both receivers, Decker, and I think, I think Wes Welker was like 900. So you're talking about, that's what I'm saying. The numbers were that crazy. And they had eight points, and they got eight points in garbage time because DeMarius just was relentless. The Marius was not going to go out of there without a fight, man. RIP, my boy, DeMRIP, man.

Long live. Long live. live. But that's what I'm saying. I'm saying we took the football away at a high level and you can call it cover three. But the reason we played cover three was because we had such smart individuals. Like imagine going into a game and knowing, hey, all right, if we can see them, bang, we know what plays they're going to run. We know what concepts they're going to run. Hey, I need you here. I need you here. Hey, you shift this way. Hey, they know what we're in. So we're going to bastardize it like this. And we're going to force the ball here and we're going to book them. Like that's why we brand this so

that we can play to the strengths of our players, play to the intelligence and the IQ of our players and take the football away that meantime. That's why we killed everybody. Like the big play where Cam hit Demarius, that was one robber. Yeah. That was one robber. Cam robbed in the middle of the field and was coming down. They ran a man-beater, a pick, you know, crossers. And Cam said, like, and that's early in the game. So again, we play a man on that play. That's man, one robber, but we were, we were playing to the strengths of our players, visual. Like, and man, as you know, you ain't, you can't look. You can't really play to concepts and all that.

You got to like, hey, I got to get to here, get to my leverage, like, hands on, staying is hit. Like, I might get a chance to glance if I, if I read the route early enough, but it's harder to get interception. So that's why you rarely have these teams that are playing so much me and coverage, go to the Super Bowl. Like, that's why in the last probably 10 years, you look at every Super Bowl champion and what they're playing on defense. And, I mean, every NFL team, nobody playing more than 30 percent, man, even the Broncos this year who were living in men,

Vance Joseph had them boys and man all the time. It was like 31%. Yeah. But I think that just makes us even more special because we did go to the Super Bowl and we did dominate every team we played defensively. If you look back at our schedule and you look at the way we won every game, It was a defensive play to win the game, whether it was a forced turnover, an interception, a fumble for scoop and score,

a fumble or interception backed up. If it's a sack to push another team out of field goal range, not every game, but most games was a play like that to win the game. And to go into like, you know, cover three, we only ran cover three on third and long. We had a three buzz. But outside of that,

Our zones were zone mans, cover eight, right? Quarter zone. Cover two, cover six, reverse quarters two, right? That takes, when you run in multiple defenses and to be as cohesive as we were and to communicate the things we did running, whether it was a fire zone, a zone man or man, robber, all that. When you have all these accumulations of defense and you still are able to communicate across the board and get things done. Man, that says another thing about your secondary

and your defense of intelligence as well. Mm-hmm. No question about that. No question about that. It takes intelligence, especially safeties, because y'all got to get everybody lined up and you got to get everybody moved and you got to know where to drop

and where to play and all these crazy blitzes. But it takes some Cajonais to say, hey, we're going to run three four things. We're going to run man. We're going to run three occasional, five. zone and we're going to line up and you're going to do nothing about it. Let me ask you a question. I'm curious about what do you think your percentage of, you know, I know that was your home

defense, right? What percentage would you say you ran that above all of the defenses? And it's just a curious question. All defenses? Three, it just depends on what you, what you're talking about. Because if you look at the league right now, everybody runs cover three at about 50 percent, everybody, because it's eight box. And it's your first down defense.

Everybody's eight box first down against the run. And so that's what a lot of times it be in because we're playing it against the run. We're playing base cover three against whatever base personnel, 21 or 12. So if you above the rest of the league. Oh, no, I'm not saying above the rest of the league. I'm saying just within your team, like compared to like your cover ones and and would it be like 50% cover three, 50% every, all other defenses, right? We'd probably be 24, 25% man.

We'd probably be 50% cover three. We'd probably be like 10% cover two, maybe 10% fire zone three. Something like that. Okay, okay. I'd say we was probably like, we were probably like 40% man, 30%. A quarter-style defense, right? Whether it was six, eight, or straight-up quarters. We probably did that 30%.

Probably another 20%. I'll say 10 to 15% of fire zone, maybe. More like 10% fire zone. And then another 10 to 15% cover three, just because we ran that a lot on third down. You know... Third and long. Third and long.

Hey, it's us, the Jonas brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news? Huge news. We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it.

We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names

of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad,

Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toll.

O'Donno and our podcast point game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs.

I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nasree. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying.

He running the court licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is, getting a racist statue removed. And here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is, getting a new one put up in its place.

As long as there's a politics of race in America, there's going to be a politics of remembering the Civil War. To get to school, I had to go down Robert Lee Boulevard. Get to the grocery store, I had to go down Jefferson Davis Parkway. If you're an historian and you leave out half of what the history is, you're not doing your job. I'm Akila Hughes, and Rebel Spirit Season 2 goes deep on both of those things. The fights, the politics, the people who won, and my personal campaign to add something to the Kentucky State House that's actually worth the wall space. We are more than our bodies. We contain essence. We contain spirit.

How do you represent that? They are just fueling a fire that is really catching. You'll see what I mean. Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. you get your podcasts. Was Swartz in Cleveland with you? No, I didn't have Swartz. I didn't have Swartz.

Who'd you have? I had, my first year we had, man, Jeannie, it was Rob Ryan, which was great. Rob Ryan was great. Defense all over the place, right? The name of it, it could be anything. Then I had Dick Geron, who I came from Green Bay. And he ran, we ran more of a four-three style where a strong safety. I was setting a lot of edges.

I was playing like a damn outside linebacker. It was probably like the worst. And I always said I broke my foot that year because I was forcing so much shit inside my second year. And halfway through the season, my foot just snapped on me. And then I came back. The third year was Dick Geron again.

I don't even remember that year too much. I think I had a pretty good year, decent. But my fourth year and probably my favorite defense was Ray Horton. Ray Horton came from Pittsburgh. I love that defense. I wish I could have played in his defense. whole career. And I don't know what happened to him after that season. I think he may go to Arizona for a little bit, or he was in Arizona before. But that was one of my favorite

defense along with Wade Phillips. And then when we got to Denver, we had, we had Jack for that year. That first year, we had Jack. And the only thing is I didn't like about that defense. It was like a three man concept, right? To the line, the tidy. And if I want to play man, let me play man. Let me go get him and take him. It was like a man where if the tight ends went over the linebackers, then you take him. And if he don't, then it's like a little discrepancy there. And a lot of times I ended up chasing guys laid across the field because the linebackers didn't. It's great.

You know. Because it's so great. It's so great. And I went pro bowl that you. I actually had some great numbers. But I just didn't feel, you know, to yourself sometimes. You had the numbers be there. You'd be like, man, I kind of had, you know, fortunate situations, right?

But then I had the numbers, but then the plays I seemed to give up were more. And it's not all about what you do good to us. It's about what you give up. Like, I can have six picks and I gave up. I didn't say, I think I gave up one touchdown. And I don't want to give up no touchdown to no tight ends, no years. And I gave up one and I was hot. I was like, man, I'm done.

No, but. That's another thing about that year, 2013 year. We had two dudes up for defensive player a year. Got votes for defensive player to year. I got votes and Earl got votes for defensive player to year because I had eight books and I was strapping. And that was another thing. In the playoffs, I know you said,

y'all made plays to win those games in the playoffs. We started the NFC championship game. Guess what our offense did? They turned the ball of Russ Fumble, first play at the game. And again, like you just said, it's in their territory, first player of the game, adversity, we hold them to a field goal. They go up 10-0 in that game.

They go up 10-0, and they're up 10-0 for a decent part of that game. Marshaun ended up breaking out, scoring, getting us seven, we get three. Cool, it's 3-0. In the fourth quarter of that game, every time they touched the ball, we took it. This the C-Docs? I'm going to the Saints? This is, no, no, we played the Saints in the Divisional. We played the Niners in the NFC Championship.

And they dropped back. This is the beginning of the third. They dropped back. Cliff Aver, I believe, forces a fumble. Mike Bennett picks it up, runs it to the five. Yeah. Hell of a game. Offense gets no points.

No points. From the five, they got no points. They turned it over. Turn it over on downs from the five. A couple plays later, Cam picks it off in the flats from the 30. I think our offense scored after that on a free play, on fourth down. It was like fourth and 11. Free play, they got, they got San Francisco to jump

because we got to remember, San Francisco had some dogs. They had Navarro, they had Pat Willis, they had Justin, they had, they had some guys. They had, they was going. They was one of the best defenses in the league. For sure. And we got a free play. He hit courage for a touchdown. Cool, we got a touchdown. Then the last drive of the game is when I tip it to Malcolm, Malcolm pick it off and that's game. Those are the three drives they had in the Super Bowl. That's the kind of defense we was playing. So it wasn't like, man, we, we getting, you know, we, we having these relaxed games and we just chilling and we just, like, we having to show up and dominate to give us a chance. If we don't stop, if I give up that touchdown right there, we lose. Yeah. Like,

even after all, everything we did in that game, we lose that game. And so it's literally clutch play after clutch play after clutch play. And it happened throughout the season. We had many games where it was like, hey, pick six to bring us back. We lose and we losing in Houston with two minutes to go. They're at midfield, third and four. Shab wanted to do a half boot, try to throw it to the flat. We run a fire zone like Palms concept,

and we invert out of cover three, and I jumped down to Palms, pick six, 50 yards, 21 up to bring us back in a, you know me, it's plays like that all season where your best players is making the big time plays. and I feel like y'all did the same thing. I feel like Vaughn had the plays, I mean, the AFC championship and Super Bowl for Vaughn,

boy, that boy was played. Yeah. He played so well, especially those last two games. Like, I'm not going to say only, but when I looked at, I had to go back and look when we were just going over a lot of this stuff, and he had 11.5 sacks regular season, right?

I was thinking he had at least 15. You know what I'm saying? Right. just the way that playoff runs. So I went, I'm like, he only had 11 and a half sacks. Like, I thought he had about 15 sacks during the regular season. The way he was playing in the playoffs. And I look, man, we both turned up as far as turnovers in the playoffs.

Like you said, defense, you guys had eight, we had seven, right? Right. Just when you're back against the wall in situations and the biggest moments, the biggest moments of the season, What do you do? What happens and what do you do? Do you get the ball back? Do you get a big stop?

Do you, you know, how do you react to being uncomfortable in urgent situations, right? And that's what we did both of us, defenses-wise. It's like you said, things may not always go right in the way you want them, and a lot of shit be unexpected. You may get a turnover, get you right back on the field. God damn. We just got the ball back. Shit, you can't even sit down on this bitch for a little bit.

But, you know, I will say that. No, like I said, you guys eight to R7, the offenses we played. And like we talked about, you know, and there's one more point. The points per play that I'm going to have to go in our favor. It's not by much. But our yards per play was 4.39. You know what you guys were? 4.4.

Right behind us at 4.4, man. So, you know, nonetheless, man, I enjoy watching y'all play. I enjoy watching y'all do your whole thing. Like, Cam, my dog, Earl, my dog. Man, I talk to Cam more and then I talk to a lot of guys on our defense, right? Just through Instagram or whatnot checking on, you know, everybody's well-being, you know, me, Earl Cam, and yourself, we all came out the same draft class. So we've had eyes on each other for a long time, right?

Just checking each other's game and just seeing you guys do what you did in Seattle, it motivated not only the whole league, right, because in football, this always looked at as an offensive game, right? Offense sells the tickets. Offense is who gets paid first. you know, offense is the first child, you know, most of the time, right? Or the baby, whatever you want to, whoever gets treated better. But we all know defense wins championships.

And without that defense, man, you're not going to win nothing. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And that's what I want to say about y'all, too, bro. We had a lot of, you just, as a defensive player, you admire great defense. And we played Carolina that 2015 year. we had some issues early in the game and and you know some things happened but but they j stew had

had a good game um and we lost that game and we watched y'all j stew was killing boy man he was hard tackle man i had him in college man i'm you played against him so man look when he came in i was like what the fuck who was this bro i remember coming to alton my freshman year at stanford and i I wasn't expected to play. This was 2011. Oh no, no, 2006, sorry, 2006. I'm talking about, 2006. We come into Altsin.

And I'm never been there, you know what I mean? I'm just a kid from Compton, trying to try to figure it out. Y'all came out there with you, Pat Chung, Walter Thurman, and Bird, I think was at the other corner. And, boy, when I tell you, y'all tow us up and down that field, and Jay Stu, our best player was our safety. Brandon Harrison. He was a big dude, like 2.30, you know, 6'2,

supposed to be league bound, supposed to be. And he's killing us in training camp. So I'm like, boy, this boy is nice. You know, all you know is your team. Yeah, for sure. Jay Stu got up that sideline, grabbed him by his face mask, yonked to the ground and just got out of the outset.

Ooh, this, it's real out here. This voice is real. They're legitimate. I got a, I got a real. You know when your head dog, when your main dog get dog down, you, you're in for a long day. He just did that to Dibo.

God, dog. He just did that to our biggest dog. Oh, that's funny as hell. That's funny as hell. That's funny as hell. Hey, we got some breaking news. It looks like the Kansas City Chiefs just traded Trip McDuffie to the Rams for first.

first round pick, fifth round pick, sixth round pick, a third round pick for 27. That sounds like a Christmas list. God damn. They got Santa Claus came with that.

Man, that's... Wow. Wow. Hey, it's us, the Jonas brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news? Huge news. We created...

our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a... We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special.

So how did we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. And... Oh, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down?

Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. The Bron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what.

He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gets.

gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick.

Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is, getting a racist statue removed. And here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is, getting a new one put up in its place. As long as there's a politics of race in America, there's going to be a politics of remembering the Civil War. To get to school, I had to go down Robert Ely Boulevard. Get to the grocery store, I had to go down Jefferson Davis Parkway.

If you're an historian and you leave out half of what the history is, you're not doing your job. I'm Akila Hughes, in Rebel Spirit season two. goes deep on both of those things, the fights, the politics, the people who won, and my personal campaign to add something to the Kentucky State House that's actually worth the wall space. We are more than our bodies. We contain essence. We contain spirit. How do you represent that?

They are just fueling a fire that is really catching. You'll see what I mean. Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. NFC West right now. NFC West is an arms race. It is. Last year they was cooking. Last year I said they was the best division in football.

And I know the Rams are losing Kobe Durant, which was probably their best corner. Like that boy was out there making plays. He going to free agency. And I mean, that was a knock on the Rams this year. It was that secondary, right? They had Forbes out there. He had an up and down season. And, you know, Kobe Durant was holding it down.

as far as turnovers, but they gave up a lot of plays, especially to you guys, man, and crucial clutch plays and clutch moments. So we just talked about your defense, what they have to do in the bigger moments of the game, man. What do you think about this, man, Sean? I think this, I low-key feel like the Rams got laced because I don't know about a corner getting that much of a haul. Like a first round pick for him would have made sense. So you just said, okay, a first round, but they gave a fifth.

six and a third from next year, like that just seems like a lot. And it seems like on the chief side, they might be going into rebuild mode. They might be feeling like, hey, this is going to be a throwaway year because they don't know when Pat Mahomes is going to be back. You know, he's coming off to ACL. You don't know how quickly that's going to heal. Is he going to be back midseason? Is he going to be back late season?

I don't know. And so giving up your best corner seems like in getting draft picks. for it seems like, hey, we're just investing in the future, and we don't want to keep paying high-value corners and save a little bit of money. So they may be at a retain, I mean, I guess maybe retain Chris Jones and some of the other guys that they have. But for the Rams, it makes sense, like for the reasons you said, they're losing Forbes. They got a great front in Jared and Byron Young and Brayton Fiske, Landman's a good linebacker. So they feel good about their front, but they need to secure that back in if they're going to keep competing with the Seattle,

Seahawks in the San Francisco 49ers. That division, everybody had 10 wins. And everybody was, you know, two of them were in the NFC championship game. The Niners got put out by the Seahawks in a divisional. But they're going to get healthier this year. They're going to get all their best players back. Fred Warner's coming back. Nick Bowes is coming back.

It's some up in the air stuff about Trent Williams, but I would assume he's coming back. And them at full strength is as good as any team in this league. So it's going to be fun to watch. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I think, honestly, I think the Chiefs won this one, especially with that third, with that cherry on the top. My thing is the turnovers, right, from your number one corner, two last year, or one last year, two the year before, zero to years. And I really see Trent as an inside nickel, right?

He can play the outside, but last year seemed that he got picked on a little bit out there when he was at the number one, especially again, bigger receivers. And that was just me looking at as many games as I've watched. Of course, I didn't watch every game. But I watched a lot of the Chiefs games, especially them being, you know, AFC West, right? You pay attention to that when you watch in the Broncos. So a first rounder, like you said, cool, maybe another late rounder. But then another late rounder and a third, man, oh, man, big red Andy Reid.

I think they won that one. And knowing that they like to develop through the draft, it gives them another opportunity to bring a younger player in, maybe an ideal player that they may want to get in free agency, but hey, let's not spend the money, let's get this type of player in the draft for the L.O. And develop them,

and we could pay our big horse who pretty much makes everything happen is Chris Jones, right? Like, you better keep him. If you want to upset Chris Jones, I would dare to say the best player in football on defense? Right. Man, I would, look, not far from it.

don't think they win any of those Super Bowls without him. No, absolutely not. I don't, I don't, and that's, that's my personal opinion. I know he had a down year this year. I think he would, he would admit that, he would say it, the tape says it, and I think people are so down on him, especially, you hear Kansas City Chiefs fans like, man, get rid of him, get rid of him. People have down years, guys, but when he's on in 23, and 19 and 20, like a lot of those years

y'all won Super Bowls, he was the reason. He won him that Super Bowl in 23. 19, he had an incredible year. He had an impactful game that season in the Super Bowl. And I'm not sure they win it without him. So, again, as you said, keep him happy. And maybe surround him with more talent, like more D-line talent. You know, pass rush wins games in this league.

Pass rush, you got to have it. And I think it showed up in the AFC side because of what Houston's doing with DeNeil Hunter and Will Anderson, what Denver's doing with Benito and Cooper and those boys, and even interior, they got into all pro and Zach, Zach Allen. Yeah, yeah. Who's freaking phenomenal. But a great pass rush gives you a chance, you know, and as you said earlier, pass rush and coverage work together.

Yeah, I like, I think I like, especially I think this draft has an abundance of pass rushers, that you can get late after those early guys go, right, after the Baines. He'll probably maybe, you know, the boys at Ohio State, they could change the defense, right? Our guy is, at the Red Raiders, he's up there he'll be the first defensive guy going on. But then you got a group of long outside corners that are coming out of this draft this year. So, man, it's going to be interesting to see. it's going to be very interesting to see how they install McDuffie in that Rams defense and really what responsibilities do they have?

Do they have them playing more inside? Do they have somebody that they picture to play outside or are they going to line them up immediately at number one on your best receiver? Yeah, I'm interested to see that too. And we've had those conversations before about, you know, shadowing the number one receiver and is that the most valuable thing to do is that the smartest thing for a defense? to do, and I think it's situational. You know, I don't think it's something you do every week,

because not every week you got a true number one. That's that impactful. That's getting 150 targets. You know, if you looked at this Super Bowl and said, hey, you're playing the Patriots or you're playing the Seahawks, you say, hell, man, if you're the Patriots, you're following JSN. But then JSN goes out early in that game, and you're like, okay, so who do you follow now? Yeah, now there's nobody else worth following or dictating your defense like that.

So it kind of kills the point of it. And on the other side, if you're playing a Patriots, who are you following with number one? Kishon Booty, Douglas, is Diggs the guy? You know what I mean? None of them are getting those kind of targets or that kind of focus for you to say, hey, we need to designate our defense to focus on this guy and put our best player and kind of tilt our defense that way, in my opinion. Yeah, you just brought up a son.

You made me realize Tariq Woolen up. You know, you could probably get him for a cheaper price than he was worth for two years. years ago. So, I mean, it's a lot of free agent corners out there as well. I don't know if I like this by the Rams. I really don't know, but hey, I could, they can, you know, McVeigh, great head coach. You can prove me wrong. Right, right. Do your thing, McVeigh. Do you think. Somebody just put out a stat. They've traded every first round pick for the last 10 years. Really? Yeah.

2017 traded their pick to the Titans 2018 traded their pick to the Patriots 2019 to the Falcons 2020 to the Jags 2021 to the Jags 202 to the Lions 23 to the Lions 24

they drafted Jared verse So my bad It wasn't all the whole 10 years They're always in the win now seem like if you're giving up your first round picks I got Matt back here I'm in the win now until he retired

ain't no wait till later We're trying to win every Super Bowl this year. So that's a good, I mean, that's a good place to be in. That's a great place to be in. That's a great place to be. You feel like you always got a chance. And Matt is one of them dudes. Man, for real.

For real, he definitely is. MVP, hey, can't argue that. But we had a lot of respect for y'all and what y'all did and your defense. And, you know, we go back and forth. It's all fun because we just prideful players. And you play to the high level and we played at a high level. And everybody wants to be the best. and take pride in what they did.

But as you just said, defensive players can appreciate just great defense being played. You know, and I love it even nowadays when I see like the Seahawks defense and what they did to the Patriots in the Super Bowl. And anytime there's a great defense, I loved what Denver was doing all year. You know, what they had going in,

and Sir Tan and them boys in Houston, what them boys in Houston is doing. Man, them boys in Houston, yeah. It's crazy. Young boys is playing good football. So it's great to see that, man. Maybe you and me could collab more because I enjoyed this. Yeah, for sure.

I enjoyed seeing you getting to talk ball. Nah, definitely. We got to do it again, man. Like you said, great collaboration. I'm glad we got to do this, man. Always a pleasure talking to you, man. Hey, we're going to leave it up to y'all and y'all argue amongst yourself, man. It's no-fly zone.

Legion of Boom. Who's your number one defense at all time? Leave it in the comments, for sure. Don't forget to watch the Richard Sherman show. watch Safety First Show. We on YouTube, Instagram, all that, man. Leave it in the comments.

And as always, we appreciate you joining us. You could be anywhere in the world, but you're here with us, and we surely do appreciate it. As he said, catch the Safety First podcast or the Richard Sherman podcast, both on YouTube.

We obviously collabing right here, but thank you guys for joining. Appreciate you. Hey, guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick.

And guess what? We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but, you know.

Tired and sick. Tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. What's up, fam. It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano.

It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast, Point. game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was crying. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow.

Then after that game seven, Marquis come until he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Crimless, Rory and I welcome a very special guest. When I did podcasts, I wear my sleep masks.

I like where this is going. So if you guys will indulge me. That's right. The incredibly talented and hilarious Will Ferrell on an episode dedicated to crimes committed by people named Will Ferrell. You're good for 300 crimes? Yeah. We've got two. I'm ready to go right up to present day.

Listen to Crimless on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. On paper, the three hosts of the Nick Dick and Poll show are geniuses. We can explain how AI works, data centers, but there are certain things that we don't necessarily understand. Better version of Play Stupid Games, win Stupid Prizes. Yes. Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift, who said that for the first time. I actually thought it was. I got that wrong.

But hey, no one's perfect. We're pretty close, though. Listen to the Nick Dick and Poll Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I-Heart podcast, guaranteed human.