The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Saturday Special- Colin speaks with Dr. Patrick Soon-Shiong and Executive Producer of 'The Last Dance' Mike Tollin

Episode Date: May 16, 2020

Colin talks with Dr. Patrick Soon-Shiong who is not only a Doctor helping to fight Covid-19 but also owns the LA Times and is a minority owner of the Lakers. Dr. Shiong talks about the things we are learning about the disease and why it is so much more dangerous than previous pandemicsThen, Colin talks with Mike Tollin, Executive Producer of 'The Last Dance' about what the documentary has revealed about Jordan and why it took so long for this footage to be made available to the public. They also discuss how important the film has been to the country during this pandemic and why so many people wanted to be involved in the interview process Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 is big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down,

and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild. I mean, it was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all?

You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to our Saturday podcast. I really feel honored to have our next guest.

A profoundly important man, certainly not only globally, but in the city of Los Angeles. Dr. Patrick Chong is a surgeon, a businessman, a billionaire. a Lakers minority owner since 2010, owner of the LA Times and San Diego Tribune. It should be noted the L.A. Times coverage has been remarkable since he purchased the paper. He is the owner of Nantworks, a network of health startups, and the inventor of the cancer drug. A braxane, I hope they got that right, which helps fight lung breast and pancreatic cancer, sold multiple drug companies. Born in South Africa, moved to L.A. and has been an enormously important. part of our community.

Doctor, I want to start with this. You bought St. Vincent's Hospital in Los Angeles specifically for COVID patients, and you're partnering with Microsoft for COVID research. You're also CEO of two companies creating COVID treatments and vaccines, and I want to start with vaccines. I read a bit this morning that the average time between 1998 and 2009 to develop a vaccine, on average was just under 11 years. Are the stories and reports that we could have a vaccine in a year or slightly less or slightly more? Are those just simply unrealistic going forward? No, I don't think

so. And so let me just explain to the difference. And it's not just semantics, but many, many years ago, when we were trying to develop vaccines, the method of actually producing them required things like eggs or creating the virus and what we call it tenured, killing the virus, etc. What's happened since then is the advent of genomics. So because we have now the sequence of the virus, there's possibilities of having truly next generation type of vaccine where the virus, because of its known sequence, could be engineered into different delivery systems. and administered to generate immunity. So that kind of technology didn't exist before.

Having said that, it's still not a trivial exercise to actually identify the right sequence, number one, and identify the right vehicle to deliver that sequence. I was reading another story. It may have been from new scientists where there's only a 33% success rate of vaccines that even make it into trials. Are you confident today that there will be a vaccine for COVID-19? I'm hopeful in a sense that on the basis of the science that I'm watching and the signs that we performing inside our own organization is that out of all the community of scientists, there will be a vaccine. What I'm concerned about is that this is a vicious virus, what I call almost a genius

virus that has all kinds of ways of evading the immune system. So it's built within itself not only the infectivity of getting infected, but it's also built within itself ingenious ways which we're discovering as we're developing the vaccine of evading the immune system. So we really won't know even until we injected the first patient. And even the animal studies won't really help us because that much. because the animal models don't behave like the human model. So it's much more complex than making blanket statements.

Having said that, based on what we do know and the rapid science of us identifying how this virus works in a remarkable short piece of time, gives me great confidence that we will find a vaccine. One of the first things that appeared to be true was that for some reason, it was, for some reason, much more punitive doctor to older Americans, much less punitive to younger Americans. Now, we know influenza can be very tough on children. What was your initial thought on how it was staggeringly tough on older Americans, not so much so with kids? Did that mean anything to you? It meant a lot. and because we're watching how this virus works, remarkably is one of the ways it actually replicates

or grows inside your human body is that it finds a way to kill the cells that normally protect you, called the natural killer cells. So NK cells and T cells actually deplete as you age. So it wasn't surprising that in the aged population and in the pre-disposed population, such as diabetic patients, who have a deficient NK cell level as you age, that this virus would attack.

So not only does it attack because you have a low NK and T cells, it actually finds a way to kill NK and T cells as its attack. So that was one of the therapies that we needed to address, is to activate the patient's natural killer cells. And this is no different from cancer. So this is what I said when I looked at this virus. This virus is behaving like cancer. Cancer finds a way to attack your body.

Cancer finds a way to evade the immune system and cancer finds a way to suppress your natural killer cell. The virus does exactly the same, and we can fight it with a molecule that actually activates the NK cells. One of the things I've noticed, I live in a beach community in Los Angeles where we've had very low infection rate, really low death rate. We've had no hospital surge as of yet. And I've noticed this in other beach communities. I've noticed this in Florida, where despite looser restrictions, there hasn't been the hospital surge as of yet.

could there be something about the wind next to the water, the vitamin D, the sunlight? This is just something casually I watch. I'm surprised the numbers in Florida are lower. How do we explain Florida? Why does it seem to be more punitive to northern cities in America? Does that mean anything? Well, I think, first of all, let's talk about California and Los Angeles. Now, I worked with Governor Newsom very early on in February, and I think he made exactly the right decision of shutting down and quarantining social distancing, not just the community, but businesses early on.

Then I worked with him to ensure that we would have healthcare capacity, and that was the basis of the St. Vincent's Medical Center or the Los Angeles Surge Hospital. I think making the right decision early on has saved so many lives because, as you could see, one, we had a very flattened curve. Two, we did not overtake the health care capacity. And three, the surge hospital was there in case that happened. With regard to the beach community, I think it's another reflection of distancing, right? I mean, I know Malibu and now the areas around, and there are very few people close to each other on the beach. And then sunlight definitely has in effect. This is what we call an RNA virus with a capsule, and it's not very stable in heat.

And so therefore, sunlight does have effect. Okay. How do we reconcile the balance between economy and health? I mean, just mental health. 47,000 Americans on average commit suicide annually, with people being shut in, sheltered in, with the social media, a lot of negativity, pessimistic views. I see a mental health crisis growing.

How do we reconcile starting the economy, maintaining social distancing during a pandemic. I mean, there's no easy answers, right? Well, I was saying mental health is clearly an issue that needs to be addressed, but part of that mental health is fear, and fear of the unknown, fear of the unpredictability. And that's why, you know, at the LA Times, we try to establish an explanation video called the science behind coronavirus

and try and reassure the community that, there will be a solution. So I think the first step is to really have some level of reassurance and hope, but not false hope. So the hope that on the one hand, could address treatment, that I think the people, the mental health is the unpredictability of who's infected, but more importantly,

will I die because of this vicious nature of this? And now because we're beginning to understand how patients go into ICU and have 60%, 70% mortality, that we can mitigate that. That mitigation in a very short period of time we've learned is very real. At the end of the day, for us to get to real normality is we need a vaccine. And I think this operation warp speed that has now been instigated by HHS and BADA is exactly the process by which we can get back to work as fast as you can.

getting back to work is really important, but living is probably more important in getting back to work, which means then we need to find ways of testing and controlled, which then turns around we need to establish testing methods that we can do on a daily basis, because you have no idea you could be tested negative today and be positive tomorrow. And that testing is what we're developing also in Los Angeles, where we can, actually established testing method equivalent to that to career yeah so I think it's not a straightforward one-off answer one we absolutely need to figure out a way to get the economy back to this is where the government now kind of stepping in and they are stepping in with the trillions of dollars that's being made available to

both small business large business and the community and then three to provide hope and and information. And I hope somebody can look at the signs behind coronavirus and the early times. That's what we've done. And that video is on YouTube and you can get this a long series, almost a Netflix-like series. But tries to provide insight and hope and some level of control.

I think, feel you can control what you can control. You have less fear and then you have less mental anxiety. And then I honestly, I honestly believe, and maybe even earlier, we'll have a real idea of what vaccine is available. And hopefully a vaccine is available that we can enter into what we call emergency use approval. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down,

give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kier Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark.

Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid?

Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast. Learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app.

Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me.

He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue 42. A rep. My mom, I want you. you to weigh better. What? Hey, Miss Parker.

Listen to the Clippers show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down. Gorsha accusing Kelly of sleeping with a merry man. They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew. Pinky has financial issues. I like the bougie style of Housewives show.

I think it looks like to be interesting. On the podcast, Reality with the King, I, Carlos King, recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real Housewives franchise, the drama, the alliances, and the T, everybody's talking about. As an executive producer in reality television, I'm not just watching it. I understand the game. As somebody who creates shows, I'll even say this. At the end of the day, when people are at home, they want entertainment. To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Dr. Patrick Chong is joining us.

When I read about what other countries do, China, South Korea, you know, every country has their laws, rules, and regulations. And when I look at America, there are certain personal freedoms here that Americans expect. And as a global citizen, doctor, do you look at America? in comparison to other countries. Is it an advantage or disadvantage going forward on how to govern our country? Do we have too many freedoms for the average citizen and they're going to push back on government? How does that, in your worldview, is America uniquely qualified or uniquely challenged to battle this going forward? Well, look at my personal position.

I was born in South Africa. I'm Chinese, came to America. I am an American citizen. And I look upon myself as exactly living the American dream. This country is one the most innovative, most compassionate, most generous country, I think, in the world. and there's no other place I'd want to be. And so we are not only uniquely qualified with the resources and the brain power and the and the freedom.

I think we probably not only are uniquely qualified, we actually uniquely qualified to lead the world in this pandemic. Are you concerned when you hear a vaccine could be fast-tracked? Does that concern you at all? Not at all. It has to be fast-backed. In fact, I mean, as I said, the only way out of this is a vaccine, period. And because of the technology we have, we have the largest machine learning, supercomputing platforms.

We have the most amazing scientists. We have the NIAID that's involved in this, bodies involved with this, the resources. If any country could pass track a vaccine, it'll be this country. Do you worry about the partisanship getting in the way of that? I very much. Well, I do in a sense, but I think we'll get over that, right? I think we as a nation are so strong. Our innovation, our compassion, our leadership.

The history of this will get through it. It may have exposed certain things. things that are deficient, which I've been fighting for 15 years, is really what I call the integration of the healthcare system. I've been fighting for 15 to 20 years to create what I call the NORAD of healthcare so that we can monitor in real time. That's one of the keys that both Taiwan and Korea had, the capability to monitor your health. If we can do that, then contact tracing becomes an issue and not an issue.

If you do contact tracing and isolation, you don't need to shut down the entire economy. Unfortunately, what this is unearthed is the absence of that infrastructure. And this is what I call the next generation infrastructure of telemedicine, telehealth, the internet, the fiber infrastructure, the supercomputing, all of which we have, but we've not dedicated it to the world of healthcare. And that's if you look at my history, what I've been fighting for for literally 20 years of my life. now. But we also have the greatest innovators in terms of science. So taking science, genomics, and what we have, I think we could lead the nation and then overcome the difficult issues that we're facing,

as we face today. Doctor, you bought the St. Vincent's Hospital in Los Angeles, specifically for this. I've got a handful of friends, ER doctors, a couple of surgeons, a couple of surgeons, I know, general practitioners. They have said to me that the hospitals they currently work at are empty. There are COVID patients, but there's no surgeries being performed. The trauma units are empty because, you know, people aren't driving. Bars aren't open. This is an interesting situation, which you have firsthand experience. Are you concerned at all that there are going to be a series or a network of hospitals that are going to go under financially as we battle this because people say, simply don't want to go to the hospital if they believe there are many COVID patients there.

And completely right. And that was one of my greatest concerns, right? And that's why when I said to the governor, let's create a hospital that's 100% COVID, which is St. Vincent's Medical Center and maybe even Seton or St. Francis. So if we create two or three hospitals that are just 100% COVID, and all these other hospitals could send their patients there in real time, Many things will benefit from that. Number one, you'll create centers of excellence. You'll have clinicians who are then every day in, day out, understand the nuance of how to manage a COVID patient

from a mile to monitor to a patient that's near death. We'll free up then the other hospitals so that they don't, they're not concerned about exposure. And we've done that, actually. These hospitals, even our surge hospital is not full. Dr. Patrick Schong is joining us, the surgeon businessman, Lakers Minority Owners since 2010, owner of the LA Times and San Diego Tribune. I've lived through H1N1 and SARS. This does appear, however, to at least be, if not more deadly, certainly more contagious.

Do we know at this point, because so many people have it asymptomatically, do we know if it, it appears to be more contagious? Is it more deadly? Let me explain why. When SARS-CoV-2, which is the mutated a few amino acids from SARS-cove, it became 20 times more infective than SARS-C. More importantly, this is now now taken on this thing called the ACE2 receptor as its mode of entry into your body. Unfortunately, ACE2 receptor is in many cells of your body. in your lungs and scary enough it's actually on your blood vessels it's in the kidney your liver your gut so when we see diseases like Kawasaki disease when you see cardiac disease when you see

respiratory failure this now you've seen pathogenesis that you've never seen before when you add on top of that that it's in fact to be in patients that are asymptomatic days before they have symptoms. And it's infectious 30 days after you have the virus infection. You begin to understand why this is so different and so scary, which means two things is so critical. We need to find testing to test and ensure that the patient is negative, even asymptomatic.

And secondly, we need to have a vaccine quickly so we can act stop. Shifting from COVID-19, of the many businesses, you certainly could have purchased. When you sold Abraxas and American Pharmaceutical Partners for a combined $9.1 billion, you chose as one of the businesses to purchase the LA Times, the San Diego Tribune, the newspaper business, which with few exceptions in this country, had been struggling. Why did you choose to buy the LA Times?

What about that did you see as a good business opportunity? I didn't look upon it as a business opportunity. In fact, some of my business friends said they thought I was smart until I did that. And the reason I did that is me coming to this country, being so grateful for the freedoms and the ability to actually, not only, I don't see this as a philanthropic thing to give back, but I saw it's so important to have a paper for the community and a paper that actually is filled with integrity and providing real information.

And I think COVID speaks to that. Despite the fact that we've lost 50% of our revenue from advertising, believe we're not, struggling financially. Our editorial staff and newsroom has stepped up. And as you said, beginning, they've provided amazing information. and is so necessary. So I think COVID speaks to exactly why we exist and why it should exist papers like us throughout this nation. When you look at going forward as a global citizen,

the newspaper and the journalism business, are you concerned they're being limited? It's not as well capitalized. And that the best days of journalism are behind us. And we need to find a way where, one, the public-eyed subscribers figured this out with us as newspaper owners. New York Times is surviving now through 6 million subscribers. Yeah. We have one-tenth of that, if not.

We relied hugely on advertising revenue, except that's now not only gone to almost to zero. Sadly, because of the social media, that's been taken away. I am very concerned, but I think, you know, that's why we took on this challenge, in fact. And I'm hopeful that we can work with the Congress to find ways to support these institutions. How often do you talk to the governor of California or the mayor of Los Angeles in regards to the current pandemic? in daily or weekly briefings and discussions? Yes, I mean, I'm on text terms with the governor and I'm on his task force. I've accepted to be on his task force.

I've taken on within the task force, the subdivision of the task force that talks about what do we need to do to open up businesses urgently. We've been in constant contact with regard to the Los Angeles Surge Hospital, both in northern and southern California. So no, and then with Mark Galley, the HHS Secretary of California. So, no, I think I'm grateful to the fact for the fact that we, you know,

in close communication and that he's very and really takes advice to heart. Let's talk about one industry in particular, aviation flying. LAX is not very far. In fact, you can see it from your LA Times building. With what you know with COVID and its contagious nature, should we shut down air travel for a short period of time? Is it safe to fly, in your opinion? I would not fly. It is no question that the air system in the, that this once needs could travel through. you know, six to eight feet in the plane.

And I think the epitome of this is the biologist at NBC, who is a virus hunter. As you may know, just came down with COVID a couple of days ago as a consequence of traveling in the plane to New Orleans. So I think, and he had a mask on and gloves on. So I unfortunately confined space like that for a long period of time is pretty high risk. Dr. Thank you for stopping by. I don't know much about this. I stay socially distance from everybody but my family. I wear a mask generally in public, certainly in stores. I appreciate you stopping by and answering questions and giving some information to our audience, sir. You're welcome.

Last night, a blown call changed the game. This morning, the internet lost the test. mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark.

Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross.

Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different. intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person.

Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff, like being an internet famous referee.

We're in the middle of the first. the game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Look, quarterback on office blue 42. Hey, rec, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching the latest season of the Real House Wights of Atlanta, you already know. that's a lot to break down. Georgia accusing Kelly of sleeping with a merry man.

They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew. Pinky has financial issues. I like the bougie style of Housewives show. I think it looks like it's going to be interesting. On the podcast, Reality with the King, I, Carlos King, recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real Housewives franchise. The drama, the alliances, and the team everybody's talking about.

As an executive producer in reality television, I'm not just watching it. I understand the game. As somebody who creates shows, I'll even say this. At the end of the day, when people are at home, they want entertainment. To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Stay safe. Well, it's my pleasure to introduce somebody whose work I've admired for a long time. I first heard of Mike Tolan years ago as he was the executive producer of Arlis, which was really, I thought, you know, pre-entourage, sort of a really smart, clever inside look at the world of sports from an executive slash agent side.

Mike is now the co-chairman of Mandalay Sports Media, along with chairman Peter Goober, who is on our show occasionally. Of course, Peter's partial owner of the Warriors, Dodgers, and L.A.F.C. That's a nice Troika. Mike's the executive producer of the last dance. We will see episodes, the final episodes, 9 and 10 this Sunday. Also, producer of varsity blues, Coach Carter, Radio. And one of my all-time favorite documentaries, Small Potatoes, What Kill the USFL, which, if you have never seen it, it's just a riot. And it's fascinating if you love football. And Mike is now joining us.

Plus, he's a Pac-12 Stanford guy. And he was a former play-by-play guy in college. I looked that up last night. So instead of doing what guys like me do, which is, you know, get behind a Mike, you made real money. You've had a heck of a career. Let's start with this, Mike, the last dance. When you went into it, what was sort of your mission, or do you even need one when you go into a documentary? Well, you need one.

The mission is to make something happen. You know, in baseball, they say you can fail seven at a Hall of Fame, right? In my world, you can fail 900. 197 out of a thousand. It's a low shooting percentage to get things made. Everybody looks at the media landscape and it's just like anybody can get a show on it, have to be strategic. You also have to just put a lot of things on the board. The stakes were huge. This is big game hunting that the NBA handle season of the Bulls dynasty, right? It's legend by now. Andy Thompson is Michael Thompson's brother and Clay Thompson's uncle was a field producer at NBA Entertainment. And he went to

Adam Silver, the now commissioner, of course, who back then was the president of NBA entertainment. I figure we've got to get this. Don't do anything with this unless we come to a mutual understanding. So let us shoot it. We'll put it on the shelves. Mike, right? They were, you know, they're worldwide phenomena.

So they're there until the very end, until the final shot, which, of course, we'll see Sunday night after the push off. Was it a push-off? Colin, I'll tell you this, because tomorrow night. Right. You will see one of the most underrated, incredible pushoffs in NBA playoff history administered by Utah Jazz. Oh, I remember this. Yes.

Oh, my goodness. I mean, Reggie knew it. He said it in the huddle. The reps are going to swallow their whistle. He just flat out, you know, knocked Michael over. Incredible. Then goes on to make the winning. Everybody knew this treasured just, you know, I got my life.

Leave me alone. based forward to 2016 was when I jumped into the, you know, the goal, people have speculated. The day I flew on the day that LeBron beat the Warriors, ironically, the team that broke regular season record was, excuse me, 2016, so 18 years later. I went in and now people want to connect the dots and say, Ron, just want. No, he, I'm the goat. Michael's got, this guy's got, you know, it's two billion-dollar franchise, is multi-sillion-dollar businesses, he's building a golf course, his beautiful way, I go and give Phil. Coaching that went on there with Phil.

It was not just on the court, as you know. There's a whole spiritual path. And, Mike, why did he do it then? Well, so here's the thing. Demands he made. He thought it would be interpreted as, you know. My pitch was the documentary landscape had changed. The motivation never demanded anything.

People got a new insight. I think, look, long enough. Does it bother you at all? It doesn't me, because I feel this is a storytelling venture. I'm not learning. It's an amplification of what I knew because I lived through it and covered it. And there's obviously some video that's amazing, but I feel like it's just amplifying what I loved.

It's the best basketball team I've ever seen. It's the best American sports team I've ever seen. Maybe the Steelers in the 70s were close. But some have said, well, you know, Michael's got the final edits here, Mike, and it's not real journalism. Does that bother you? Colin and Jason Hare, our extremely talented director, has said this several times publicly. Michael didn't edit anything.

I mean, no kidding. Honest to goodness. Not one, please take this out or please soften that line. I mean, look what's in there. I mean, you know, he accepts all these people saying what they say about him. He's been really open about his feelings. The only thing, he watched them all, he had an opportunity to discuss with us. He didn't have final.

Basically, he done their homework. The only thing he did on occasion was actually suggest an addition. For instance, when he came back from playing baseball, Indiana, where he was way off, and then we jumped to the double nickel game against the Knicks and the Garden. He looked at it and he said, I think you guys might want to go back and see this footage of the game, the fifth game back against Atlanta. I hit a buzzer-beater, win the game, and it really gave me the confidence without which. I'm not sure I'd have been at that level for the Knicks game.

Good call. We missed it. We put it in. He really just extensive interviews. We did eight or nine hours. Ken came out and said, I would know the production team. You know, that's not good history. That's not good journalism.

Well, we weren't going to do it. You know, the MBA is a partner of Esty Portnoy and Curtis. We weren't going to do this while you say you haven't learned that much because you go into this thing. This is your world. You're an expert. The people that come up to me, families are getting together on Sunday night. Old school, talking about this.

On a Monday morning after the first couple episodes and said, for seven years, 122nd highest pay player in league. I had no idea. That's amazing. So, you know, there are a lot of people who are getting tremendous insight, I think. Oh, yeah. No, no. Listen, hey, I've loved it.

I have supported from the beginning. I think it's fantastic. I think I don't do a lot of walk-down memory lane radio. That's not really my schick. I don't. I have been obsessed with this. And so I hope you don't see that as a criticism. I feel like I'm getting, like, I think,

documentaries are fascinating and important. And one of the reasons is because they tighten up and button up my memory, because over time, Mike, our memories fool us. We think we were happier than we were. We're more critical. Like, for instance, Mike was better at baseball than I gave him credit for. And I said this, you know what? I didn't know about the 13 game hitting streak. And frankly, I knew about the instructional league. And frankly, when I heard all the interviews, I thought, you know what? I was a little harsh. I was too. reactionary. Maybe I was a follower in that, didn't do enough homework. So when I, I think documentaries button up and they, and they strengthen our loving memories of people. And so

the information is stuff that we, you know, let's be honest about it. Our childhoods, a therapist will tell you this. We always make them better or worse than they were. Right. If you could do a documentary on Mike Tolan's childhood, you'd be like, oh, really, my dad wasn't that bad, or my mom wasn't that meme. So I think it's been incredibly crucial. Now, I will say this, you interviewed Michael several times. One of the things I loved, Mike, was when you give him the iPad, and I thought it was a brilliant touch. Whose idea was it? And I think I've gotten honestly, the best reactions of this entire doc have been those iPad moments. Whose idea? Jason Hare, the director, gets the credit. We talked about it. I said, man, you've just like reinvented the genre.

He goes, nah, it's been done before. And we've actually talked about it. It has been done before. It's just never been done on this documentary as the record. Sure. It's kind of crazy in that sense. So people are probably seeing it for the first time. It was his call. It created a dialogue, you know, with my...

He came Michael's legendary. He's in. When Jason first, they've been in the league for 66, they've never even smelled. The article he's read where the Bulls were called the Flying Cocaine Circus. And Michael cracks up and you realize he's not. never heard it before. And then instead of just like, ah, yeah, yeah, well, you know, next question, he goes on and describes the debauchery in great detail, right? So you see he's really in. When Jason gives him the iPad and Gary Payton is trash talking about the 96th vitals,

and Michael, I had no problem with the glove. And then the Dennis Rodman taking a vacation and Isaiah Thomas talking about the move of not shaking hands after the Bulls finally beat him, Michael's, the thing is, and I got to give Phil Jackson again, I mean, one's genius. Yes. And Mark Vansel, who's Michael's biographer, talking a few hours before the finals with Utah, he's listening to music on his head. It's comfortable, you know, people only think of the intense, competitive Michael. A petition where the bull looks like a guy. Last night, a blown call changed a game.

This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions

everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action, with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, We get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing.

And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on Earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely.

And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Learn the Hardway, and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff, like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to.

wave at her. What? Come on out. Quarterback on office blue of 42. Hey, Rhett, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Where's she at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, it's Edwin Castro, also known as Castro 1021. And I'm Konki, his best friend and business manager. And we've got a new show called The 1021 podcast. I'm taking you behind the scenes on how I became one of Twitch's most popular streamers. We also love sports. And with the World Cup right around the corner, we'll be breaking down the biggest

storylines ahead of the big tournament here in the USA. Listen to the 1021 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know what, Mike, one of the things, and this is not a criticism of LeBron, but LeBron is building a media empire. He's got an opinion on many political moments. Michael comes off to me, and I heard his daughter Jasmine Jordan talked about this recently. He's a private guy in a public sector. Right. That he is largely Mike hidden from us since his retirement. Well, I think that's one of the like they ever been. I mean, the guys who covered him, you know, Wilbon, Sam Smith, all these guys are like, wow, you know, I never heard Michael say that. He was so, they, they're magnetic, they smile,

they give you something. You go away, you look at your pads or you listen to the tape, it's like, huh? What did he say? Invariably nothing, really. He's now, look, he's 57 years old. He's been away from the game, certainly expective. He's got wisdom. He's got great. He's, he's, he's MJ, man. There's none other. Yeah. You know, I think the co-stars of this, for me, have been his parents. And one of the things that struck me, Mike Tolan joining us, was that how refined and polished he was. And you have to be careful when you discuss this because it's never the fault of the child. But if you look at the great leaders in sports, Phil Jackson, MJ, Peyton Manning, Brady, Jeter, they often have great parental support. Right. You know, Phil's parents were missionary.

Yes. And signs of different religions. I mean, this guy, his parents, his parents, he was a missionary. have. Puerto Rico, it went through the C-Bid. Oh, my gosh. So, you know, and Mike, what's fascinating about MJ, not to interrupt, he had a blue-collar work ethos, but the glamour and coolness that attracted the coasts. And I think that's really valuable. He, the, the, a regular guy loved how hard he worked and how much winning mattered. But, you know, the coast, New York, L.A. We like cool. We're a little more glamorous, right? And I think Michael really cuts through that. It's very, you know, Brett

Favre, you loved him on the coast, John Madden loved him, but he was the Midwest and he was from the South. When you get these iconic figures, they often cut through, Jeff Gordon, by the way. You know, I mean, when I look at Michael, I look at his parents and all their messaging was so solid and smart and grounded in work ethic and values. And that's why I believe Michael was so so capable as a rookie in the NBA of grabbing the baton for the league and saying, I'm going to run it. I don't think most kids at that age can. I think his parents deserve so much credit in this.

Were you blown away by it? Were you surprised at how valuable they have been to his journey? Michael went back to play baseball. Everybody just stunned. But then you start seeing his mom, and you see, again, one of those iPad moments where his mom reads the letter. She has. That's so great. And you see this.

It couldn't be Larry. It was a cool varsity team after sophomore year. That's the best. No, I mean, his father used to talk about how, like, you know, he couldn't tell Phillips said from a flathead screwdriver or whatever. Michael was really clear about it. He talked about being suspended three times, which, by the way, didn't get much attention. Sure.

And then when his father said, look, straighten up, I'm not going to play sports. And then he started to focus, keep your nose clean. And there are, there are rewards out there for you. I think you're right, too, Colin, about. The mix of urban in our business, there's this damning everywhere. Yes. Mike Tolan is joining us. He's the co-chairman Mandalay Sports Media, the executive producer of The Last Dance, and a notable

filmography, which is too vast, or I'd take up half my podcast, a remarkable career. Now, again, Peter Vessi tends to be fairly irascible, good information. Some have said, why wasn't Peter in it? Now, there's a lot of interviews. I've never felt like it's missing people because I think the video itself, the sound, the audio from Michael, you know, Jerry Krause, Michael, Phil Jackson. I don't feel like it's missing anybody, but there are those who have said, why not Peter Vessie? So I might as well ask that question. Man, Colin, I could list 20 for you right now.

Okay, so we did 106, so 108 interviews. I've never been involved in a project where people literally called us to say, hey, are you going to interview me? I don't want to mention names because these are great guys who would have added something. I mean, it's just a question of making choices, logistics. You know, Spike Lee's not in there. Just would have loved to have had Carl Malone along with John Stockton helping tell the story of the two straight vitals against you. And now I mention it if you are to say,

Friends of mine from the media are insulted and may never talk to me again because they feel slighted that they weren't included. Peter's great. Colin Calhurt, why don't we interview you? He would have had a perspective. No, it's just we apologize to everybody. Well, I mean, social media now. Nobody likes anybody, Mike. You know, nobody likes any project.

Even the stuff you like, you bail on. It's the reality. I said this once. I had the great honor of interviewing President Obama twice. and just as an aside, you know, they give you eight minutes. And I asked him a question at the end of the second interview, and he just extrapolated, went on and on. And the question was about social media. I said, no commissioners popular.

They don't even like Trudeau in Canada. Canada likes everybody, is that we live in a time now where any project is just going to get picked apart in social media. I look at the MJ, Doc, the last dance. And I love it. It makes me happy. I feel like I'm getting this polish, this refined look at this story I loved that will never see again. So there's always going to be critics in social media. There's no barrier to entry.

It's free to join. Anybody can have an opinion. But I would ask you, any regrets or like me, do you look at it and think, you know what? This is really a nice piece that 10 years from today I'll be proud of. I actually don't have to wait 10 years. I feel proud of it right now. I think we all do. No red carpet premieres, right?

We had all these plans, right? We had five cities. We were going to do L.A., New York, Chicago's the whole deal. Instead, on the screen, congratulating one another, sending the Disney company with the NBA with David Deningberg. Have people thank us for bringing their families together for giving them something to look forward to in the weekends. Old school guy, Monday morning.

Oh, I'm like, can't just tell me the next eight episodes. You let it breathe, you let it bake. And for the record, in this awful pandemic, it has been great content with no games. The Mondays are our easiest show of the week because of this great documentary, The Last Dance. His name is Mike Tolan. He's done remarkable work. We always feel lucky when we get smart people who are curious and, you are joining, by the way, Mike, Dr. Patrick Schong, the billionaire, owner of the LA Times, who was working on a vaccine for COVID.

So we're really, we've got a heck of a Saturday podcast, Mike. Congratulations to you and Jason. And thank you so much for taking time for us. Thanks. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. And every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to SportsSlic. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel

and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman helped make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me

with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick you here,

unpack what we. went down and tried to make sense of how we survived it with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations, that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with.

And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHart podcast, Guaranteed Human.