The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Sharp or Square - Legend of Larry Bird: From Indiana State to NBA Glory with Keith O'Brien

Episode Date: March 6, 2026

Larry Bird has one of the most unlikely paths to superstardom in the history of the National Basketball Association. On today's episode, New York Times best-selling author Keith O'Brien explains just how preposterous Bird's rise was. From southern Indiana nobody to legendary basketball icon, O'Brien lays it all out in his freshly-released book HEARTLAND: A FORGOTTEN PLACE, AN IMPOSSIBLE DREAM, AND THE MIRACLE OF LARRY BIRD.Fellow best-selling author Chad Millman and professional gambler Simon Hunter ask O'Brien about the adventures he took to write his latest book, building trust with Larry Bird's inner circle as he familiarized himself with the tiny community of French Lick, Indiana firsthand. We also hear about Bird's wild journey from blue blood Indiana University to also-ran Indiana State, and the serendipitous events that led to his fabled 1979 NCAA Finals matchup against Magic Johnson and eventual NBA arrival with the Boston Celtics. #Volume -- All lines provided by Hard Rock Bet  Subscribe to Sharp or Square for gambling advice, best bets, and predictions from sports betting experts Chad Millman and Simon Hunter. Follow on all platforms: https://www.instagram.com/sharporsquare/ https://x.com/SharporSquare_See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas.

We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it. But, you know, tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Why are we all so obsessed with romance? On the Radio 831 podcast, join us, Sanjana Basker and Tyler McCall, as we unpack all the trending tropes, fuzzy adaptations, book talk drama, and celebrity love stories with hot takes and sharp guests. Each episode digs into what these stories reveal about desire, fantasy, identity, and how we love now. Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the IHeart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast, Point Game,

the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was crying. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game 7, Marquis keep coming to him. He's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the Eye Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Crimless, Rory and I welcome a very special guest. When I did a podcast, I wear my sleep masks.

I like where this is going. So if you guys will indulge me. That's right, the incredibly talented and hilarious Will Ferrell on an episode dedicated to crimes committed by people named Will Ferrell. You're good for 300 crimes? Yeah. We've got two. I'm ready to go right up.

to present day. Listen to Crimless on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to Sharper Square, presented by Hardrods Bat. We are part of the volume podcast network. This is the show that makes the squares sharper and makes the wise guys pay attention all year long. I am Shad Milman. I am joined, as always, by my BFF, my companion, my compadre, my co-host, professional

better. Simon Hunter. Hello, Simon. Chad, it's always fun hearing from just new fans in general, but especially ones that who just joined this year. They really haven't heard our after football type of shows. Oh, yeah? The feedback is always hilarious from different people. Obviously, you know, some people love us, some people hate us. The biggest one is, is this Chad for the whole off season. And I said to people, I don't know if Chad is always going to have such great stories like that, right? Like, that was, You had a build up of really good stories. You had to get them all out on one show. But yeah, I said Chad, Chad's going to talk about Chad and tell some stories in the

awful. That's what we're doing here, people. Yeah, I thought that was very funny from hearing from a lot of people where they're like, yeah, during the season I get it, it's like you guys are just doing quick stories and stuff. But Chad was really on one last show. And I was like, yeah, that's all season, Chad. That is so funny.

I can't tell, is this Chad, for the whole off season is that like, oh my God, he's insufferable or oh my God, he's living some crazy life and I can't believe we get to hear these stories. Like what exactly is the context for, oh my God, is this chat off season? I think a little bit of both.

I agree, it's more so of, I think people in shock of what your life is like right now. They're like, I can't believe Chad's traveling around doing all this cool stuff. He's writing a pretty sweet book. He's got some cool connections. Chad's living the good life. So I just thought it was funny.

You just came out the gate fire. So as soon as I got a couple of messages, I was like, okay, I wasn't the only one that was like, what's going on right now? Chad is on one today. That is so funny. I was also, you know, I wasn't recording from my normal home environment. And you know, Mitchell knows, I actually, I don't like going anywhere. And it just so happens that the first two months of this year, I have no joke been traveling literally every single week.

I've been on planes for eight straight weeks, 10 different cities, you know, God knows how many states, just because of the book and because of Indiana and because of All-Star and some other consulting work I'm doing. And like, so it's just been a crazy, crazy few months with a lot of really. They aren't a cool stuff run, Chad. You really are. I don't know if you're peeking right now in life, but you had a crazy, crazy run there if you were on a pretty sweet event. Oh my God, dude, it was freaking wild

between the Indiana stuff and then, you know, going to Philly to see my kid for dinner, going to DC to see the Wizards and the Lakers, going to spend Super Bowl with this guy as a market maker on Calci for the book, like, super exciting, but you know. Real quick on that before we go into the show. What do you think of Nevada, Bannon?

I think they've been Kalshi, right? Well, look, I think we're going to get very, very deep into all this. And every day, it feels like there is more news around the prediction markets and what's happening with legal sports betting on a state-by-state basis and what the legal operators are doing. you know, we've seen in the last week drafting stock has dropped precipitously. Jason Robbins has been trying to explain it. Jason Robbins is talking about the stock getting killed and that the market cap for his company is actually smaller than what the valuation is for companies like Polymarket and

Kalshi. So when he's asked if they would want to buy him, he's. pretty honest, like the valuations for these makes them too high for us to acquire right now. But look, this business is in chaos right now. And because the prediction markets have sort of decided they are going to do what Facebook did 20 years ago and Uber did 10 years ago and just start doing whatever they want to do. And either the courts will eventually stop them or everyone else will decide this is how business is going to operate and this is what the new opportunity is and they'll be way ahead of it it's it's a fascinating time i'm enjoying doing the book because of because of all that

and you and i you know and mitchell we've talked about we are going to get into the conversation around these we're going to have on more experts we're going to talk about is is this betting is this not betting uh how can people participate all those kinds of things i think everyone's sort of needs to be informed about an educator about what these are and why they're good, why they're bad, what the benefits of the online operators are, all those kinds of things. So it's going to be crazy. It's crazy. I'm hoping Cali does what they should do and they should put up on their site, will we exist in five years? And you let people bet on it. And I was just wondering your first opinion on it, because I don't know if this is the first, you know, start of it, right? Is this the

crack in the ice here where that is the first state to back their gambling companies and their casinos and bandists? I think it's an all or nothing proposition. Interesting. Okay. I think, I think the prediction markets will exist. Will they exist with sports is another question. And the real question is it's 2026. In May of 2018, the Supreme Court, repealed the Professional Amateur Sports Protection Act, aka PASPA, and allowed every state to decide if they wanted to legalize sports betting, whether through voter referendums,

whether through the state legislature, enacting new laws, whatever the case may be. This is a right-leaning conservative Supreme Court. It was a right-leaning conservative Supreme Court in 2018. The reason why proponents of, legalized betting and people who wanted passable overturned believed they would get the right to offer legalized sports betting in their state is because state's rights is a conservative issue. They believe in the ability of the state to decide their own opportunities and their own

future more than they believe in the federal government. What's interesting, and this just happened, is the CFTC, the Commodities Futures Trading Commission, has now come out and said, federal authority should supersede state authority that are trying to block Kalshi from being able to operate in their states where sports betting is legal. So now you've got a conservative executive branch and a conservative Supreme Court that may be on a collision course because what the conservative executive branch and the CFTC is saying does not align with the state's rights principles of, you know, of historic conservative theology. on this topic. It's fascinating, and that's exactly where it's going to end up. And by the way, the person who wrote the decision

to overturn PASPA was Samuel Willito, who was one of the most conservative of all the justices on the Supreme Court. So obviously, I'm in it, and we're going to dig deeper. It's part of the book that I'm writing. Speaking of books, this guy has become one of my favorite authors. the past couple years since we had him on a couple years ago. And he wrote that great book about Pete Rose

that was a New York Times bestseller that landed exactly as the conversation around sports betting was becoming huge with the Dodgers scandal. He is a New York Times bestselling author. His most recent book digs deep on the defining year in the life of an NBA player who went on to define a generation I'm talking about Keith O'Brien, his new book out this week is titled Heartland, Forgotten Place, An Impossible Dream, and the Miracle of Larry Bird. A little bit of preamble here.

This is mostly about Bird's senior season at Indiana State in 1979. Culminated in the NCAA Finals Against Magic, Johnson and Michigan State. this created the modern version of March madness that we all love today. I want to put in context. I always love doing this. I love books like this because, you know, I'm a sucker for like narrative, historical, nonfiction. And that's what this book is. And it's brilliant.

I've read it. It's great. Kese, an amazing writer and reporter. But what's fun about these books is they put so much in context. And so I like to look back and see like what else mattered at the time and how important was this moment in that era. So on the same day as that magic and bird NCAA finals, Egypt and Israel signed a historic peace treaty, same day. Two days later, Three Mile Island. Simon, do you know what Three Mile Island is?

Nope. Jesus Christ. Three Mile Island was a nuclear reactor in Pennsylvania. Oh, yes, yes, yes. I thought you're on basketball term. No, no, no. It melted down. I do.

I'm not that young. Okay. So that has set off a 50-year debate about the safety of nuclear energy that still exists today. Also, very important for gamblers. Very, very important. Did you know? March of 1979, the spreadsheet. was invented.

What would you be doing today without the spreadsheet, Simon? You lost. It's the cheat code. You'd be on an avocas. So the reason I use all these reference points is because if you asked chat GPT, which I did for the most important moments in March of 1979, the Larry Bird Magic Johnson Finals gets the same billing as Three Mile Island invention of the spreadsheet and the Israel-Egypt historic Peace Accords.

Keith O'Brien. After all that, welcome back to the show, brother. Wow, what an intro. I love it. I love it, Chad. Thanks so much, guys. Great to be back with you. We do our homework here.

You do. We're not just going to have you come on, talk about the book, as if we don't know what we're asking you. We want people to buy the freaking book. We want to see your Amazon sales rankings jump after this show. show airs. We want like NPR level influence on the book selling community because we are the most literate sports betting podcast in America. That's right. I love all of that. I mean, listen, you guys move lines, right? You move the spread. You talk about it all the time. Let's move

the line on this. I like it. I like it. That's what we're here for. So very first question, given everything I just set up, give me the hook. Give me the why now. for a book about Larry Bird, 1979, Indiana State? Really a few reasons. First, I think we've been telling the Larry Bird story wrong all these years. Yeah, you know, the Bird Magic game is critical. It's everything in late March 1979. And for that reason, over the years,

almost every writer who's come to this story ends up doing the Bird Magic story. You know, they pile them in together, and they do that sing-song narrative. And, you know, I get why they do that as a storyteller. But when you do that, you end up diluting the stories of both men. And you particularly end up, end up diluting the story of Larry Bird. I mean, this is one of the great underdog stories of the past 50 years.

You know, there is a real reality that I'm sure we'll discuss here today where we never know Larry Bird's name, where he doesn't. get out of French slick, where he doesn't become a star. That's a real scenario. You know, the fact that Indiana State was there is an impossibility. So the whole thing is just impossible. And so what I wanted to do with this book is really, you know, just to sort of do something that storytellers often do is that tilt the camera just a little bit differently, away from bird and magic and directly on Byrd and that Indiana State team. And the reason why I think that team is interesting,

and this is the second reason why I think the book matters, is that I just think it's highly unlikely that we're going to see something like that again today in the era of name, image, and likeness money. Larry Bird was a senior at Indiana State when they finally broke through. I mean, think about that for a second. It's not like he shows up, and they're suddenly great.

He doesn't even play on national TV for the first time until about three weeks before his final basketball game. NBC is late to the party here. Everybody is. They've never played on national TV. They've never bade the NCAA tournament. And because of that, they're just not getting the coverage during that time. And so, you know, Larry Berg really explodes onto the scene late,

and becomes a phenomenon with this underdog team. And these days, a young Larry Bird who had a fantastic opening season in Terre Haute, Indiana, averaging 30 points a game, would have left and would have signed with Purdue or Duke or North Carolina for Indiana for like, you know, three, four, five million dollars, money that Indiana State doesn't have. So, you know, I think it's a story that paints a picture of a time and place that we're just not going to see again. Can you put into, like, you know, context of just what a miracle of a team that, you know, Indiana State team was? And, you know, it's something like me that's not from that era. The jerseys to me, when I watch back in the day, that's the coolest part of it, watching Larry with the hair with the jerseys. I mean, it's someone that loves vintage basketball.

I've watched tons and tons of clips. And you're right. I mean, those, it's like a miracle team when you think about it. And I just would love to know in your opinion, what are the comps to teams today? So, you know, the 78, 79 season, that's the miracle year, right? The year before was the year that people thought something might happen. Larry Bird appears on the cover of Sports Illustrated in November of 77, his first Sports Illustrated cover.

It's an iconic cover of almost 50 years later. People know this cover. And they're ranked, Indiana State is, in preseason polls. And they flame out. They flame out. They start out 13-0. They hit a rough patch. They can't get out of it.

They're not a real team. They don't really get along. It's a classic story of too many people wanting the ball, not letting Larry do Larry. And they don't make the NCAA tournament. They don't go anywhere. You know, entering that next year, his senior year, year, Bird could have left. He could have gone to the Celtics. He's been drafted already. In those times, an NBA team held your rights for a year, whether you left school or not.

And Red Arbock, you know, makes a bet on Larry Bird. You know, the Celtics that year have two picks in the top 10, which they never did in those days. And he decides he's going to burn one on this Larry Bird guy out of Terre Haute, even though Arbach knows that Bird's not leaving. He's made it known he's not leaving school. And Arbeck says something that I think is fascinating. It's a fascinating quote for life, for business, for sports, for everything. You know, when he drafts Bird, a lot of people are perplexed. You know, why would you do this? We've never seen this guy. He's never played anybody. Is he really good? And he's not even coming here. Why would we do this? And Arbach says, I'm paraphrasing here.

Time moves faster than people think. And folks are going to kick themselves a year from now. And, you know, he's right. You know, entering that season, nobody's talking about Indiana State. It's the opposite of the year before. They're not ranked. They're picked to finish third or fourth in their own conference, which is the Missouri Valley Conference.

It was nothing in those days. We're talking about Drake, Tulsa, et cetera. and nobody's talking about him. And then four days before practices begin, the head coach of Indiana State falls ill. He nearly dies. And as a result, they have to scramble. And they decide to appoint as head coach.

This man who had recruited Byrd found him on the brink of nothing in French Lick a few years earlier, a man named Bill Hodges. So it's a total mess. No one cares. and it's just one of those classic stories where it doesn't really matter about the talent in the room. It matters, do the guys get along? Do they understand their roles?

Are they happy to be there? Are they ready to work? Are they fighting for something? And that's what fuels this epic season, 33 and O entering that final game. It's incredible. So to your question, Simon, is there a comp today? I mean, really, no, there isn't.

And I know we're going to talk about Indiana football maybe in a second here, but to me, the closest comp would be like Butler Bulldogs 2010. You know, the Gordon Hayward, Sheldon Mack, you know, Brad Stevens, eight seed out of nowhere, nearly beats Duke. That to me is the closest comp in modern times. Today's show was brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Hard Rock, Bat, Florida, sports book. I know what's tough with no football, but like the song says, I bet I will survive. With hard rock bet there's always something to bet on every night. Hoops, hockey and so much more.

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Hey, it's us to Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, name? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it.

We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty. Yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember.

I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Oh, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast

where people could call in and say, hey Jonas, and then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas.

And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game.

We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by like Quentin Richardson,

we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash will get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball, like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaad, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court,

and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Agency, the ability to know that we're the experts in our own body. On the podcast, cultivating her space, Dr. Dom and Terry Lomax create a space where black women can show up fully and be heard. I wholeheartedly think, you know, you hit 30. You shouldn't have to share one with anybody.

Mm-hmm. From navigating friendships and healing to setting boundaries and prioritizing your mental health. These are real honest conversations. We don't always get to have out loud. Totally unreasonable with different parts of life, right? Like, oh, have all three meals and make sure you're mindful during all of them? Absolutely not. During one meal, I'm standing.

I'm standing and handing my children food. Because healing, empowerment, and resilience aren't just ideas. They're practices. And this Mental Health Awareness Month, there's no better time to pour back into yourself. Listen to cultivating her space on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is. Getting a racist statue removed. And here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is, getting a new one put up in its place.

As long as there's a politics of race in America, there's going to be a politics of remembering the civil war. To get to school, I had to go down Robert Lee Boulevard. Get to the grocery store, I had to go down Jefferson Davis Parkway. If you're an historian and you leave out half of what the history is, you're not doing your job. I'm Akila Hughes, and Rebel Spirit Season 2 goes deep on both of those things. The fights, the politics, the people who won, and my purpose. personal campaign to add something to the Kentucky State House that's actually worth the wall space. We are more than our bodies. We contain essence. We contain spirit. How do you represent that?

They are just fueling a fire that is really catching. You'll see what I mean. Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Like I said, I've read the book and it's it's amazing. Because of the report, thread that you bring together and how you lay out this miracle of a season doesn't happen unless there are seven, eight, nine different circumstances that come together, including Bill Hodges being a dogged recruiter and having a great eye for talent and then ultimately getting that job from the coach who probably would not have managed the team in the same way because he had done badly the year before with an incredible group of talent and sort of

for a variety of reasons missed lost the plot on what that team could be there's the story of one of the players who would nearly lost his arm in like a combine thresher farming accident and like other players who were transferred in and out and come back. Really amazing stories. And the reporting is brilliant. Put me in the scene like when you're on the ground in French lick, what are you seeing? What's catching your eye about the circumstances that allowed someone like Larry Berg to become Larry Bird?

Well, you know the deal, Chad, when you're reporting a book, when you're going somewhere, it's often for very specific reasons. You're flying there to meet with someone or meet with these four or five people over the course of a number of days. And, you know, there was some of that, you know, with this book of course. But one thing I learned about French Lick very early on is I could get people's phone numbers. I could know that those phone numbers were right. I could be texting and leaving voicemails, and people just weren't calling me back by March. You know, and so what I did initially was just go to French lick, book a room at the best Western on the edge of town, you know, plan to spend four days there with no real idea of how

I was filling that time exactly. And then once I was coming, texting and calling the people who were not calling me back and saying, I will be there Monday through Thursday next week. I will meet you anywhere, anytime. And that honestly was a huge breakthrough. You know, once I was there, boots on the ground, you know, in the library, in the local archives, hanging out at the American Legion bar at night, which I did, you know, I became a presence. I became someone. And, you know, now I'm getting access to folks who've never talked before about Larry Bird. People have known him their whole lives.

You know, so that was crucial. But, you know, one thing I do with a narrative book like this is, you know, when you go to a place, I want to see the places that I'm writing about. So I'm going to the gravesite of Larry Bird's father, you know, which is on a hill in Dubois County just south of French Lick. I'm going to a bar called Butchies in Dubois, you know, where Larry would hang out in the 80s in order to get away from the, tourists and the fans who might drift down to French Lake to see him. You know, I'm going to the little mansion, and I say little mansion because it's not really a mansion that Larry builds initially for his mother in West Baden Springs just north of French Lake after he signs with the Celtics. You know, I'm standing in that driveway. I'm standing on the cracked, you know, basketball court that Larry poured down in a grove of trees there and would, uh, famous, play Magic Johnson on that court for a converse commercial in 1985. You know, I want to see these places.

I want to describe what it looks like if the sun is rising. You know, I want to describe the cracks in the pavement. You know, so, you know, that's the kind of stuff I'm doing when I'm on the ground. I mean, I'm sick to my stomach and filled with anxiety. thinking about landing in a place like French lick or as I've done in other places and not really knowing what you're going to get, not knowing if anyone is going to talk to you.

This is very inside book writing, but I also think it's relevant for broader context when talking about just how to get shit done. When you land on the ground, and you're in French lick and you're in that best western, are you like immediately getting out on the town trying to be at the bars, at the restaurants, wherever? Are you texting people?

Like, how are you making yourself a presence and how anxious are you that, holy shit, I signed a book deal? I got to deliver this book and nobody will talk to me. So true. I mean, let's talk about something that really matters to chat. here, Simon. I mean, the anxiety of having a book deal and not knowing where it's going. I mean, that's some real, that's some real stuff, people. That's some real stuff. And your wife doesn't want to

see you when you're in that place. Your kids don't want to see. The dog doesn't want to see you when you're in that place. It's all real, right, Chad? Right? I'm talking to real stuff here. It is, dude, my wife and I were going on a trip a few weeks ago. And, you know, I haven't written a book in 15 years. And so she remembers sort of that I used to get what she calls book brain. Where I'm usually a pretty, I am on the details, especially when it comes to organization, household systems, logistics. truly annoying. And we were at an airport sitting at a gate,

and my name was announced over the loudspeaker because I had left my bag in, like, where we had bought food before our flight. And I had been sitting at the gate for 45 minutes and didn't even notice my bag was gone, and she looked at me and she goes, oh, shit, I forgot about Book Brain. Like you just, you're not present in anything.

There's only one thing you're thinking about all the time, and it's the book. I mean, this is a story I'll tell here, and only on this podcast, only for your listeners. I mean, when I got two dogs, and, you know, the dogs need to be walked during the day, and I work in a home office. You know, I'm lucky to be able to do that. And, you know, but, you know, when you're walking the dogs in the middle of day, even sometimes when I'm listening to your podcast while I'm doing it, I'm thinking about my book. or I'm thinking about the chapter I'm writing, or I'm thinking about the thing that hasn't, the tumbler that hasn't fallen through yet, right?

And sometimes I'll actually curse out loud, you know, not even knowing that I'm doing it. And my poor dog will sometimes turn around to me like, are you okay, buddy? Are you okay? This is the world we live in. But, I mean, back to your question. I mean, you know, I don't want to paint too dire of a portrait here. Certainly on that first trip to French Lick,

There was a lot unknown. I did have a couple of footholds, you know, meetings I had set up. I wasn't coming in blind. I let the library and the librarian know I was coming. I wanted access to certain things that they had there and only there. Librarians are your friend. Archivists are your friend. And I reach out to them like a lifeline in a book writing situation.

But, you know, there certainly was anxiety. And I didn't even know I mentioned a minute ago, the American Legion Bar in French. Like I didn't know that existed. I didn't know that's where people hung out. But once I was in the library and I was doing the work there in the archive, in the back room, literally on the floor, scanning documents, very glamorous work. You know, I asked the librarian, hey, where can I find this certain person, you know? And it was a person who was, you know, old-timer, knew Larry's dad, had information, you know, that was maybe helpful for me. And she said, well, he usually hangs out at the American Legion bar.

And I said, well, where's that? And what time do people go there? And she said, well, the people are there now. It was like 430. And so, you know, I will remember, you know, pulling up outside the American Legion bar, you know, this is me, right? This is who I am. And sitting outside in the car going, well, I'm going in, I guess. I'm going in, right? And, you know, it's one of those moments where you open the door to this small

little bar. And it's like a record scratch moment where literally everybody stops and turns around and is like, who is this guy, right? I mean, French Lake is a town of about 2,000 people, 1,700 people. Everybody knows who hangs out at the American Legion bar. I am not that person. And so it took me all of, you know, from getting from the door to the bar, 12, 6,000. steps where I had to start introducing myself because people are like, you don't belong here. But as soon as I said who I was and what I was working on, I mean, people were thrilled. They were thrilled, you know, that someone was there who was taking an interest. And they were excited to talk.

And I'll be honest, on every occasion that I've been back in French Lake for reporting, you know, I go to the American Legion Bar. And now I don't go necessarily to do reporting, although when you're there, you do meet people. I go because when I walk in, they know me there now. Amazing. Yeah, it's, you know, for someone like me, I think of Larry as someone that, you know, through TikTok or Instagram, you just see clips and hear stories about players talking about them, right?

That's the new generation. That's kind of our intro to Larry Burke, right? Just his whole complex, being cold-blooded, just, you know, a legendary killer. And when you talk about sports, you put him on the pedestal of a guy like Kobe, where he's that same cold-blooded type. And, you know, obviously, you've dove into it. He's obviously a much more complex person. Obviously, you know, people come off.

He's just super confident to do that. People are afraid of. I would just love you to explain what is his, you know, personality. Who is Larry Bird? Yeah, you know, those TikToks and those memes, you know, they're accurate. You know, they capture who Larry Bird was, especially as an NBA player. You know, once he got to the league and established himself there, you know, that's really where he comes into his own as a trash talker, you know, and someone who was to use your term,

Simon, a killer. But, you know, that was in him from the start. You know, he was, he had that in him all the way back at Springs Valley High School, you know, in 1973, 74. He has that in him, you know, when he shows up at Indiana State in the summer of 1975. But, you know, it's a bit of a shallow profile, I think, of this man. You know, he absolutely had confidence in himself that was unshakable from the start. But he was also a sensitive young man. You know, he bristled, you know, at people who did and said small things that rubbed him the wrong way. You know, he, you know, was honest in admitting later that he would shut down, you know,

if he felt someone had slighted him, wronged him. You know, he, you know, I think struggled to to play well with others and integrate well with others in situations where he felt uncomfortable. I think that is absolutely what happened in Bloomington at Indiana University in the late summer of 1974. You know, as many of your listeners will know, you know, Bird first signs with Bobby Knight at Indiana. And, you know, people hear that and think, well, he must have been somebody. He must have been great. That's not really true. You know, Byrd was not a first team, all-state player in Indiana in 1974.

In fact, according to voters in Indiana that year, there were 15 players who were better than Larry Bird. He makes the state all-star team, which is a big deal in Indiana. But he only really does so because a columnist in a little town in southern Indiana really advocates for him. And when he makes that team, he hardly plays, which infuriates him. And so when he shows up in Bloomington in late August, 74, he's not a big deal. He's not a big star. And that Indiana team is truly great. You know, they're going to win, they're going to have an undefeated season one year later without Larry.

That's how good they are. And so when Larry shows up there, they don't care about him. You know, they treat him like every other freshman, especially a freshman from a little town and a little school that nobody's heard of. And, you know, I don't think anything nefarious happens while Larry's, you know, they're in Bloomington for 23, 21 days. I just, I don't think he can handle that, which is why he leaves and goes home. Hey, it's us to Jonas Brothers. And guess what?

We have some big news. What's the news, huge news? We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a... We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, a pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there.

but this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Oh, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers.

This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast where people could call in and say, hey Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad Hey Jonas and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys.

Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before.

He knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too.

Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the fly. He running up the court, licking his fingers while he got the ball, like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball.

So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Agency, the ability to know that we're the experts in our own body. On the podcast, cultivating her space, Dr. Dom and Terry Lomax create a space where black women can show up fully and be heard. I wholeheartedly think, you know, you hit 30,

you shouldn't have to share one with anybody. Mm-hmm. From navigating friendships and healing to setting boundaries and prioritizing your mental health. These are real, honest conversations. We don't always get to have out loud. Totally unreasonable with different parts of life, right?

Like, oh, have all three meals and make sure you're mindful during all of them? Absolutely not. During one meal, I'm standing. I'm standing and handing my children food. Because healing empowerment and resilience aren't just ideas, their practices. And this Mental Health Awareness Month, there's no better time to pour back into yourself.

Listen to cultivating her space on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is. Getting a racist statue removed. And here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is. Getting a new one put up in its place. As long as there's a politics of race in America, there's going to be a politics of remembering the Civil War. To get to school, I had to go down Robert Ely Boulevard. Get to the grocery store, I had to go down Jefferson Davis Parkway.

If you're an historian and you leave out half of what the history is, you're not doing your job. I'm Akila Hughes, and Rebel Spirit Season 2 goes deep on both of those things. The fights, the politics, the people who won, and my personal campaign to add something to the Kentucky State House that's actually worth the wall space. We are more than our bodies. We contain essence. We contain spirit. How do you represent that? They are just fueling a fire that is really catching.

You'll see what I mean. Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you feel like Larry Bird today, you mentioned the slights, you mention the sensitivities, he refused. to speak to the media several times. You've mentioned his father a couple times. His father committed suicide and that was not, and Larry Bird had a kid early in his life. I think it was 18, 19 and was married. These were things that were not well known, but reporters found them out and then wrote about them. How do you think a Larry Bird of today manages the storm of social media of nonstop attention. Does Larry Bird have a chance to become Larry Bird under

circumstances like today? You know, you're right, Chad. In the 1970s, he had these secrets, if you will, you know, in his closet. And I want to be clear, right? I just wrote a book about Pete Rose who had real problems in his past, you know, real controversies, lies about terrible things, right? That is not the Larry Bird story. But he has these things. You know, you mentioned it. His father commits suicide. This is a real trauma. They don't use that word in 1975. But that's what that is, right? We know that now. It is a trauma. You know, he marries young as a lot of, you know, kids from small towns did in the 1970s. That does not end well. You know, and, you know, the press in Terre Haute, you know, they know these stories in 75, 76. 77. They know them and they don't write about them. It's one of those classic things where the press knows things that they're not, you know, revealing to the fans, to the public, to the readers. But for the moment that Larry hits the cover of Sports Illustrated in November of 77, you know,

he is now, you know, fair game, you know, to the national media. And, you know, it's a great story. There's a reason why Sports Illustrated is coming in eight weeks later to write a massive profile on him, because this is an impossible story. This never should have happened. But when they do show up, of course, they want to do the kind of work that we do. You know, they want to tell his backstory. And, you know, I interviewed almost every reporter who crossed past with bird in a meaningful way in the 70s. I think talking to the media who cover someone is a really useful thing.

And one of them was the Sports Illustrated writer that some of you will know, certainly, Chad, you'll know, Larry Keith, Larry Keith, a longtime writer for Sports Illustrated. And, you know, Larry was a huge deal in 77,78, one of the best writers in the country, big name. He shows up in Terre Haute in January of 78, and he makes a mistake. You know, he tells Bird that he's there to write us a profile of him

and show that he's more than just a basketball player. And the moment that Keith says that, it's just like a light switch. You know, bird goes dark, just shuts down. And so Keith has to do that week, sort of what I had to do in a lot of ways. You know, he's got to go interview everybody else about Larry. Okay, Larry's not going to talk to him, but he's got this job to do. How's he going to tell this story? So he's talking to people in French lick. He's, you know, the first who sort of breaks news about, you know, Larry's past. And, you know, in a lot of ways, Larry's grown up, and he said that himself. You know, he's matured obviously a lot.

None of us are who we were when we were 18, 19 years old. You know, and Larry's done today what he wanted to do in 77, 78, 79. You know, he's finally disappeared. You know, he doesn't engage. He isn't on social media. And, you know, based on the people that I've interviewed, And I mean his closest friends, people he's texting right now. Larry doesn't care, you know, what people are saying or doing about him.

And I think that's, there's something admirable about that. What, I should have asked you this in the beginning. You told me the why, but how did you even come up with the idea? You know, I'd finish the Pete Rose book. I'd finished Charlie Hustle. It wasn't out yet. You know, and that's a time when you're dreaming up story ideas, you're dreaming up projects, possibilities. You know, I've got a list on the wall here of potential things that I might want

to dig into. And, you know, I'm from the Midwest. I'm from Cincinnati. I spent a lot of time back there during the reporting of Charlie Hustle. And while that book was in a lot of way, is exactly like all my other books. It's narrative nonfiction. I'm not in it. It was more personal. You know, I was back in my home. I was almost writing a postcard, you know, from my past. And as I was doing that, I was just thinking about other Midwestern stories. And, you know, someone mentioned to me, oh, you should do, you know, a Larry Bird biography. And I was like, I don't, I don't want to do a Larry Bird biography. But, you know, I might be interested in just this little window of time, this, this Indiana State story. And so I just started noodling around on it. I, you know,

went down the rabbit hole. And, you know, without giving away too much, there was a scene, a moment in late March, 1979, after the bird magic game, after this team, this miracle team has returned to Terre Haute, returned home that happens, that when I read it, I couldn't believe it. And I thought it, it couldn't be right. It was just too amazing. It was too great. It was too cinematic. And once I stumbled onto that sort of ending, I almost worked in reverse. Larry doesn't strike me as a guy that likes to even live in the past, let alone talk about the past.

Did you have to reach out to him a bunch of times? Did he ever respond? No or just never respond. What was that whole interaction like? I did reach out to Larry. You know, I reached out, you know, through his proper channels, through his agent. I would say I made three or four official approaches. You know, and the initial approach was cordial and no.

And it's sort of unraveled from there. You know, and I don't know why. You know, I don't know why. You know, this isn't a Pete Rose story, you know, where someone has real problems. that they hid and lied about. You know, there, I didn't, I didn't understand at times the resistance. You know, but once I was working, trying to get in through the front door,

I was also trying to get in through the back door or the side door. You know, as I mentioned, you know, I got pretty close with Larry's closest friends. And I mean the people he's in contact with right now, not Danny Aange, not Kevin McHale, you know, but his friends. the people he hangs out with today. They sat down with me. They granted access to me, long interviews. And so now I'm asking them, hey, can you please help me, you know, connect with Larry?

And, you know, I want to do that, of course, for all the obvious reasons. But, you know, I've learned over the years through this project, the Charlie Hustle Project, and many others. That, you know, while it's always helpful, of course, to talk to the subject of the center, of the story, you can sometimes get a more accurate portrait by talking to 12, 15, 25, 100 people who were watching the person at the center of the story. And in this case, you know, Heartland is more than just a book about Larry Bird. It is a story of a team, a time, a place, Bill Hodges, Larry's roommates, Larry's teammates, this town. And so, you know, all of those people were speaking to me. And it was through those interviews that I was able to tell this story.

Keith O'Brien, you nailed it. It was fantastic. Great book. All the reporting comes out, perfectly woven. Love the book. Heartland, a forgotten place, an impossible dream, and the miracle of Larry Bird. I mean, I think it's fair to say, you're the Dostoevsky of 20th century support it's non-fiction. If the gambler was written today, you might be writing it. Keith O'Brien. I hope you sell a million copies, brother. A million. Thank you so much, Chad. Thank you, Simon. It was so awesome to be back with you guys. This has been Sharper Square, part of the volume, podcast, network, watch or listen on YouTube at Sharper Square, like the video, subscribe to the channel, download us from Spotify, Apple Pods, wherever you get your pods, rate review, subscribe,

leave us five stars, say whatever you want. Feedback is a gift. Until next time, love you. Hey guys, it's us The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts.

We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it. But, you know, tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Why are we all so obsessed with romance? On the Radio 831 podcast, join us. Sanjana Basker and Tyler McCall,

as we unpack all the trending tropes, fuzzy adaptations, book talk drama, and celebrity love stories with hot takes and sharp guests. Each episode digs into what these stories reveal about desire, fantasy, identity, and how we love now. Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas.

And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast, Point Game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was calling it. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in to you, he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball.

So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This week on Crimless, Rory and I welcome a very special guest. When I did a podcast, I wear my sleep masks. I like where this is going. So if you guys will indulge me. That's right, the incredibly talented and hilarious Will Ferrell on an episode dedicated to crimes committed by people named Will Ferrell. You're good for 300 crimes? Yeah.

We got two. I'm ready to go right up to present day. Listen to Crimless on the IHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.