The Herd with Colin Cowherd - The Draymond Green Show w/Baron Davis - Thunder-Pacers NBA Finals, Knicks future & top 5 defenders

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

In this solo Fan Q&A episode of The Draymond Green Show with Baron Davis, Draymond breaks down the difference between winning and losing in the NBA Finals and shares his thoughts on what the New York Knicks need to do to take the next step toward a championship. He dives into which team has the best defense in the Oklahoma City Thunder vs. Indiana Pacers Finals matchup, whether OKC is truly ready to win it all, and ranks his Top 5 defenders of all time. Draymond also discusses how he defends taller, more athletic players, why he thinks the NBA season should be shorter, and what changes he’d make to the playoff format. He talks about the need for consistent standards across NBA arenas, names the Top 5 players without a ring, and reflects on how many teams are really trying to win a title. Plus, he shares insights on mental toughness, lessons from injuries, and his favorite basketball moment from college and the NBA.3:00 - Knicks' future after losing in Conference Finals 12:00 - Better defense: Thunder or Pacers? 17:15 - Dray's top 5 NBA defenders 25:30 - Guarding mismatches 28:00 - What NBA rule would you change? 35:00 - Top 5 players without a ring (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) #Volume #Herd Follow The Draymond Green Show on social media:  https://www.instagram.com/draymondshow https://x.com/DraymondShow https://www.facebook.com/people/Draymond-Green-Show https://www.tiktok.com/@draymondgreenshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The volume. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the Draymond Green show with Baron Davis. B.D. will unfortunately not be here today. He's out sick. So I decided to hop on. Still need to get our fans, the content. We need to give you some opinions.

So instead of doing like a preview because BD can't be here, I'm just going to hop on, answer some fan, questions. And then BD and I will go live after game one of the NBA finals. Also creating a fresh episode, breaking down in the finals matchup, but also everything else going around the soap opera. I mean, going on around the NBA. So make sure you all lock in for that. But I'll get right into these questions. Number one comes from... Zen Lollipop L. He said, I think last year when you were talking to a Knicks fan podcast host,

you argue that the Knicks more or less overachieved than going to the second round. Later, you maintained that the Michael Bridges trade would not get them to the finals. Presumably, you saw them eventually fall into the Celtics. But they actually ended up eliminating the Celtics and fallen to the Pacers again. Given how everything ended up shaking out, do you still feel vindicated in your initial prediction? And with the extra information from this season's stats and results, where do you project the Knicks going forward?

Well, number one, I don't feel vindicated about a prediction because it's just a prediction, it's just an opinion. So no, I don't. My basketball, I know a lot of people out there talk about the game these days. And they do it in quite a way that's not indicative of true knowledge of the game. Or they say hot things or bold takes because they need, like, people to look because what they're saying isn't like, doesn't have much fabric to it,

to its core, just not much fabric to some of these basketball predictions and analysis. So I said all of that to say, I think people live and die on, like, oh, man, like my prediction. It's a prediction for a reason. But then you actually have to go play the game. So those things actually don't really matter. And saying that, I think for myself and just looking at, I said that that move doesn't get you to the NBA finals. And it did it. Even in beating the boss of Celtics,

who everyone thought would be the team that's coming out of the East, you still didn't get to the NBA finals. But there's reasons for that, right? Like you trade for Michael Brizzards. You give up a lot. You don't quite have the depth. Now, there's something that say teams may not use the depth, but whether you use it or not,

they didn't quite have the depth. that you need to compete at that level, get to the NBA finals, winning an NBA championship. I think one of the things that ultimately hurt them when you look at the series that they didn't lose against the Pacers, one of the things that ultimately hurt them was that they didn't have a debt

when Kat were getting in foul trouble or Jaylen Bruns were getting in foul trouble. Like, they went on runs at some of those points for sure, but ultimately, you do need your best players on the floor. if your best players aren't best on the floor together, then that's an issue, and it's going to be hard to get to the NBA finals anyway. So didn't quite happen with them fall into the Celtics

for multiple reasons. Not going to even get into those multiple reasons. But nonetheless, no, they did not make it to the NBA finals. And if you want me to be quite honest with you, I personally think making it to the NBA finals is one of the worst. seasons you can have. And the reason being, because if you don't win the NBA finals, you're kind of like going to the NBA finals and winning an NBA championship, those two things are so far apart.

Like, you can get to the NBA finals and not be close to winning an NBA championship. And I know that may sound hard for people to believe. but those that have won championships would definitely understand what I'm saying and those that have been there and didn't quite win would definitely understand what I'm saying it's those two things are so

drastically far apart like making it to a conference finals like you're so far away from winning a championship and it looks like it's close because you're one series away the NBA finals look like you closed because you lost in the actual NBA finals.

But the difference in between winning and losing the NBA finals for a lot of teams. Every now and then you have that 2016 Warriors vs. Cavs, game seven, down to the wire, takes Kyrie Irvin and hit a crazy shot,

take Bronn and get a crazy block. Every now and then you have that and like you're right there. But like sometimes you see teams like losing the NBA finals 4 to 2 like they the record itself doesn't tell the answer, but they could have won two games in NBA finals

and really not been close to winning an NBA championship. That's how hard it is to win four games in an NBA champion and an NBA finals. Even if the Knicks made it through the NBA finals and didn't win it, that's not some accomplishment to me. Like you get nothing for making the NBA finals except a couple of $10,000 more dollars

than the conference final loser than what you would have got for making the conference finals. And you get another three weeks shorter summer of the conference final loser. And if you're off, and if you're not, if you, you know, compared to a team that played in

or didn't make the playoffs, you're an entire nine weeks off your summer. And for a team they made the second round, or, you know, made it to the first round, you're probably seven weeks. The numbers are what they are. They're not exact. Point being, you walk with nothing. Like the team go on and celebrate and have this incredible summer.

And, like, you're kind of left stuck there trying to figure out, like, where we're really close? Do we need to run it back with this team? What's the tweak we need to make? because we were right there or we weren't really right there only some GMs are smart enough to figure out like yeah we were there

but we really weren't there like the close but you're kind of left in this position of like maybe we're one tweak away but what you should understand about this thing one tweet could actually like it's like jingle sometimes like one tweak of a roster could make the whole thing fall

so it's not just always like It's not like a simple fix, but you may think it is. And while you think it is and you were made it to the NBA finals and lost, there are other teams that felt like they needed to make a big change or two or three and, like, are coming for you. And you're kind of left in the same spot thinking you close. And you may not be that close or that one tweet could like really put you far further away than you were. So it's not like, oh, you just do it again.

or you had some, like, huge level of success. Like, yeah, making it to the finals is great. But if you don't win it, it's almost worse. Like, you might as well have lost in the first round. So that's kind of how I feel about that. And as far as the Knicks going forward, yeah, I think going forward in order to win, it ain't there yet. I just don't foresee it.

I think in order to win, the Knicks need to bring it a great player. I can't talk specific names because I'm not going to give my money away for that. But if the Knicks want to win to compete for a championship, I think they need a great player. And I'll just leave it at that. So what does that look like going for? You decide. But if you're talking about championships,

I'm just going to tell you as a champion and I know exactly what it looked like, they need a great player to come on that roster. They need to add a great player to that roster. How do you do that? That ain't for me to get into, but they need to add a great player if you think they're going to compete for an actual NBA championship.

John emailed the question in, who has the best defense in the finals and why? I think that's an easy answer. The best defense in the finals, I think is the no question to Oklahoma City Thunder. I think, A, they have

multiple incredible individual defenders. They're very well coached, which makes the team defense great, but they have multiple incredible individual defenders. Like, when you think about Tyrese Halliburton, he could face Lou Dorr, he could face Adams Caruso,

he could face Kaysan Wallace, He could face Jay Duff, who's an all-defenseive team member. That's a lot of guys to be able to throw out one guy. They have that. And like I said, they're well coached, and they load up boxes and elbows. They swarm to the ball. I think, so that goes without saying.

I think where Indiana could cause them trouble is, if the offense isn't clicking, because I don't think OKC run like a super complicated offense. So if the offense isn't clicking and Indiana is getting off to the races, I don't know that OKC's transition office is that defense. Transition defense is that great. And that's where Indiana could cause them some issues. If the transition defense isn't,

I don't think their transition defense isn't that great. great, but who has the best defense? They have the best defense by launch in his NBA finals. In the NBA, they have the best defense. At Baller 22, 23, you talked about OKC's seriousness earlier in the season. Now that they're in the finals, when did you notice they flipped the switch? I think as the season went on, you saw the interviews change.

Like, the messaging in the interviews changed. But in saying that, I do think they still go about their business the same way. Like, it's not like, oh, man, they made some huge chain. Like, they go about their business, how they go about their business. What works for you, works for you. I personally still think it'd be incredible to see Shay in interviews by himself. I think it'll still do more for Shay's brand to see Shay in interviews by himself. But what works for you, the demeanor of your team, works for you.

you. When we were winning championships, if you came into one hour practices, the beginning of practice was like a circus. You got Steph throwing four-course shots from one end, another guy throwing football passes to the complete opposite, kitty corner across two courts to the opposite end of the floor, guys kicking balls from half court, kicking the ball trying to make it into the rim. If you came into those practices, like, you look and you'd be like, there's no chance. that's a championship team. Once we get our business going, we're locked in. But then you might, like, we've had this little bench.

Or not bench, it was kind of a table, like a training table on the side of the court. We go sit over there on the training table during practice. If you went on the court, they moved the training table one day. Like one year or one day we came into practice and the training table was gone. You would have thought, like, you would have thought, like, whatever the wildest thing you can think of happened, you would have thought that happened. Everybody in there going crazy.

Like, you know, where the table? The next day the table was back. Like, it almost come off as a joke. Like I said, well, we're about our business. We're about our business. And we're locked in and we dialed in. We're getting our work done. But anything outside of music, blast, like, it's a joke.

And so I said all that to say, what works for you, works for you? There are some things that they do that I don't like that, as the leader of a team at this point in my career, I don't think I'd want our team doing that. But I also don't know the culture of that locker room. You know, I also don't know their culture.

And so what works for you, works for you? And you got to go with that. I do think they have a great young leader in Shea, who has built a culture. Like, Shea has taken part and building that culture back there. Obviously, Sam Presti, they got a great culture. But Shea has built that culture there from the beginning.

Lou Dorr, they built that culture. And so, as the guys who built that culture, you know how to lead it. And I respect She, especially as a leader. Lou Dorr, and how he go about his business, but Shay is the clear-cut leader. And I respect him as a leader. He's doing a great

job. And so, there are still some things that I see that I'm like, ah, but what works for you, works for you, and nobody can argue what works for them is working for them. Moving on to the next question. Number four, at unbiased Dubs fan.

In your personal opinion, who are the top five defenders of all time in order? And where are you on that list? What you should understand by me is I think I'm number one on that list. However, I think top five are going order. I'm really not a fan of those. But who I would regard as my top five defenders of all time, I definitely put myself in that list. Ben Wallace is on that list In my opinion

Tony Allen's on that list Tim Duncan is on that list and the last one on that list Also understand I'm not including Bill Russell I didn't see them play I have the utmost respect for those guys

the pioneers the utmost respect but I'd be lying to you if I'm like Bill Russell, Will Chamberl, like I'm just going off stats and I don't love when people do that because there's an eye test and I haven't seen enough of their games to say that. So understand I'm not excluding them, I was born in 1990 and that's my only reason for not including them. But I'm not excluding them or, you know, saying they're not it. They very much so could be.

That's a little before my time. I've seen some of their games and watched up here and there, but to say top five, like, of all time, like, you have to see more games than I've seen theirs. And so I'm not going to be a hypocrite and be like, oh, those guys, like, that will be fake of me. So understand that. And saying all of that, and my fifth would go to,

well, I actually did have the opportunity to see very young in my life, but more film around him, Hakeem Olajuwon. That would be my top five. So my top five in no particular order myself, Tim Duncan, Ben Wallace, Hakeem, and Tony out. The NBA finals are almost here, and every play could be the one that changes everything. This is the NBA playoffs,

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Vice Sports brings an exciting and diverse range of programming that goes beyond the game. Catch action-packed, Live events and exclusive sports documentaries and profiles only on Vice TV. Number five, at Asian Sensation 3286, how do you manage to defend players who are either more athletic or have a height advantage over you? It's amazing at your height that you can defend all positions effectively. I think more athletic guys who are more athletic than me, like you can have athleticism, but the game is all about angles. And so where you can beat me in athleticism, I understand angles and I can make up in angles and physicality.

Athleticism can only be used and taking advantage of with space. If you close distance, close space, it's harder for that athleticism to be used to their advantage. You know, so those are a couple of the things that I try to do. as far as people with height, my grandma used to have a saying the bigger they are, the harder they fall. Now, it's not necessarily that,

but when I see a guy that's, you know, has me in height, there's also a disadvantage to having height. Most bigger guys can't get low. And there's this old saying, low man wins. When I play football growing up, they always say low man wins. And so for me,

I'm always looking to get lower than the guys who taller to me because now I have leverage, which can then persuade you to get into your spot. And if you can stop somebody by even an ish from getting to the spot that they want to, that changes the shot. And ultimately, if I can be lower than you, I can stop you from getting to the exact spot

you want to get to to take the shot that you want to take, that possession goes in my favor. Whether you make a missed a shot, you can still make a miss the shot, but I'm going to make the bet that over the course of time, over the course of a 48-minute game per se, if I make you take the shot

that I want, more often than you give the opportunity to take the shot that you want to take, I'm a win over the course of 48. You take 20 shots, and I can make you take 13 of them you didn't really want to take those, as opposed to you being 7 for 13,

maybe you're four for 13 advantage me you know and so that's kind of how I like to approach it I always think low man wins and I try to make sure I'm lower than those guys and then use my angles question six at Q-Will 5

if you could add or change a rule in the NBA what would it be and why I don't know that it's necessarily a rule that I care most about I was short in the season I just think it's too many games and at the speed that the game has played at today.

I know people always talk about, oh, man, guys always did that. Them guys, like, no disrespect to the guys that came before me, but they used to walk the ball up to court. Like, the speed that the game has played at today, the amount of ground that's being covered today as opposed to before in the NBA, it's drastic. And so I think, I just think the seasons is a little long. And you don't always end up seeing the best, of the best, from the best. So I don't know that that's necessarily a rule.

But I do think it's a problem. Well, I know Braun talked about there being a month off before the playoffs. I don't know that that's possible. A, you kind of get a, you know, guys could get a bit. out of shape and it could have adverse an adverse effect. You know, guys getting back in, all of a sudden

you pull or something because it's been a month. So I don't know if it's necessary, if a month is the right answer, but two weeks ain't, ain't no basketball, ain't no NBA player getting out of shape in two weeks, but you can't get a lot healthier in two weeks, you know? You look at

Steph Curry pulling the hamstring and to your point, Aaron Gordon saying two days in between games. I agree. You look at, because here's the thing, if you end up with a series like Houston and it's a day in between game, that's a four-hour flight,

four-and-a-half-hour flight from San Francisco to Houston, on a day in between the game, that's your rest day. So by the time you land in Houston, it's eight o'clock at night. if you just try to get the guys a little sleep and not leave at 10 or leave at 12,

all of a sudden you get into Houston, by the time you make it to the hotel, it's dark. 8 o'clock at night, you're trying to get dinner, and everything is quick, like you're getting ready for bad, so the recovery process ain't great. Is it about bunching in games, or is it about the best man winning, the best team winning,

putting your best product out there on the floor for the fans? And I think that's where you're running. into the issue. And so I agree with AG. Like, there's two games. We played Boston in the NBA finals. Robert Williams was dealing with a knee injury. When he was out on the court, they were really good.

When we had a day in between games, brother, man, could not move that second game. When there was two days in between games, oh man that game he played after them two days was stellar could possibly change the outcome of the series I still think we beat them but that could change something well just one day

does it help absolutely so as I said not quite a rule change maybe a concept change but if you want the best I think that needs a shame. Another rule that I would talk about

that also is not really a rule and fans wouldn't understand is a couple of things. There should be a standard when you go to these arenas in these visiting locker rooms. When you're accustomed to a certain level of things, a certain thing for recovery,

cold tub, hot tub, sauna, when you have a routine that you do for recovery, and then you go on a row for two weeks and you can't hit that because of the seven games that you play, one team you had access to a cold, to one team you had access to a sauna. It doesn't allow the product to be as great as it can possibly be. So in turn, it affects the fans, right?

It's something that fans don't see, but I'm telling you, it's something that affect fans because you're not getting the best product. Another standard that should be. that ultimately help players, which helps fans. You go to some of these arenas, some of the chairs are low as hell. You sit, your hips are.

The chairs on a bench across the NBA should be standard, should have to be a certain height. Hip position, it makes all the difference from hip. But guess what else that affects? It affects backs, which ultimately can affect calves, which ultimately can affect hamstrings, can affect Achilles. It can affect knees.

right? Like all the stuff is a trickle-down effect. There should be a certain standard for stuff like that. Because again, those things allow for the product to stay in the best possible shape as it can stay for the fan that paid their hard-earned money. There's no standard. So from arena, locker room shit, benches, lowest hell, trash, I think those things need to be changed. It's 2025. You mean to tell me there's not a standard. Hey, ownership. you've made all this money, there's a certain standard that your visiting locker room should be. It should have these things.

It don't have to be the most expensive whirlpool, hot tub, cold tub. Ryan Smith, Utah at a cold tub, hot tub. It don't look like it's something that's crazy expensive, but it makes a difference. Gold State Warriors, I think they got a very expensive a whole situation going over there

in the visitors locker room. but it don't have to be expensive. It's just the access, which ultimately gives the players better recovery, which allows the players to be out there on the floor more, which is the big gripe around the NBA, huh? So how about you start correcting these things that can help correct the issue?

Because guess what? I don't think the amount of games is changing. So what can you change? You can change those things. Those are the rule changes, if you might ask that I think need to happen because it affects the overall product. At Love the Game 20,

who are the top five players in the NBA without a ring? You got to go talk to somebody else without a ring. I don't have without ring talks. I'll take that a step further. There are some guys that have rings because you need luck. And they just didn't catch the break. You need luck on your side to win rings.

Health. Right. Like, it ain't always apples to apples And just because you don't have a ring doesn't necessarily make you not a winner. You know, because I see people throw that type of salt all the time. Like Chris Paul not a winner.

Chris Paul's a winner. Hasn't had the luxury of winning the ring, but do the winner. No question. It's a winner. It's been proven. You know, so I don't, I don't get off into all of that.

It's very hard to do. Don't get me wrong. Like, there's a certain respect. that comes with doing it, as it should. But I'm not, I'm not the one to talk. That ain't me. I want to like that. Moving on, at Math, Bell K-5.

Can you talk more about players slash teams that actually want to win a championship versus players slash teams who are not really in it to win a championship? Absolutely. You figure on a giving year in the NBA, maybe if you're lucky four to five teams really trying to win a championship, like doing all that they can.

The only thing matters, the first second and third most important things is winning the championship. You got really three to five teams a year that that's really the case. Everybody say they're trying to win a championship. All the players are going to be like, oh, yeah, you know, we fight and start to see, well, we just want to, you know, preparing to try to win a championship. No, you not. Because winning a championship don't happen on your terms. So you see these teams and these players like,

oh, winning a championship don't happen on your terms. Winning a championship happens on the terms that need to be met to win a championship. And everybody ain't willing to sacrifice for that. Not organizationally, not from a player perspective. They wanted to look a certain way. I want to win a championship, but that don't work. but don't work.

That little butt will kill your chances. And that's most people. That's most organizations. So anytime you hear people saying, we want to win a championship, but acts it, that's it, they don't really want to win. And there's a lot of that around NBA.

There's far more of that than people who actually want to win a championship. So, yeah, no, they're all in your face every day all day. At Dean Chambers, 8613, how do you work on mental toughness as a young team

and keep up the hunger to win as an older team? I think keeping up the hunger to win as an older team like you, you have experienced success and you want that. You know, like,

if you were a winner, you just don't stop and be like, all right, that gene is gone now. Like, I don't care to win anymore. No, you always want to win.

That's the type of person. That's how you keep that up. it's the type of people you have. As far as a younger team, mental toughness, you got to go through it. And you got to be willing to go through it, and you got to be willing to go through it with the people you're going through it,

and it's a certain way to go through it. When you lose, you lose a certain way. You go back to what I was saying about the Houston Rockers the last month ago or whatnot, when they lost. You lose a certain way. You run off the court, you duck your head. You ain't ready to win. because you ain't know how to lose.

You ain't ready to win if you don't know how to lose. It does not mean you have to lose in order to win, but if you don't know how to lose, you ain't ready to win. And so for a young team, you got to be willing to go through that. And when you take them lumps, you got to take them lumps,

you don't start pointing a finger. Only way the fingers should be pointed is here. How can I help better this so that we can do this? That's how you build mental toughness as a young team. You got to go through it and you got to stand ten toes. And when you go through it, you stand as men or women, depending on the young team we're talking about obviously we're talking NBA.

You stand, you take your lumps, you take it on the chin, you go back to the drawing board. You work a little harder to try to do it again. You know what that's, you know what that looked like, you know what that felt like. You hold on to that experience. channel that experience. Remember that experience and learn from it. That's how you move forward. That's how a young team gains mental toughness.

You go through it. Stay ten toes. Don't start pointing a finger. Ah, your homeboy is going on. I'm wondering, oh, man, it's stay. No, it ain't. It was us. It was me.

I did this. Because that attitude carries into everything that you do. And then you can, win. And that's how you build that mental toughness as a young team. At the AJ, the AJ media, what lessons have you learned from setbacks or injuries? What is your philosophy on building team, chemistry, and camaraderie?

My lessons from injuries that I've learned, I've been fortunate enough to not have a ton of bad injuries. I think my worst one I've had was my back injury. And the lessons I've learned is just how lift weights. Be strong lift weights. Have a strong core. lift weights. They tell you it's going to mess up your jump shot,

go lift some more weights. Lift weights. Lift properly, lift weights. That would be what I learned from setbacks and injuries. Team chemistry and camaraderie, got to start at the top. In order to build that, it must start at the top.

The don't start at the top, it can't start in the middle, that never works. Can't be a couple here, a couple here, trickle down to everyone. If you can't start there, that's the beginning of the end. If you cannot build team chemistry and camaraderie

starting at the top, that is the beginning of the end. And last but not least, at Hennie underscore, what is your favorite moment that you can remember in your career in the NBA and college? NBA winning a championship, no question.

College, I would say I have two. Playing in the final four in Detroit, just the whole lead up to that game, the PEP rally. Like, it was incredible playing the final four in Detroit. We lost an international championship game. But that experience was one of my favorites in college, my freshman year.

And then also my senior year, playing on an aircraft carrier in San Diego on the USS Carl Vinson aircraft carrier where President Obama in attendance was like a dream come true. And it wasn't a dream that I had because I didn't even know it was possible. We had the best athletic director ever in Mark Hollis who just created this thing out of thin air. And it was one of the most incredible events. It wasn't one of the best games to play in. The win was a factor, the corrig, a little slippery. You had those decal slippery.

But forget the game. We still had a great year. And that was one of the most incredible experiences. So I would say that one. those will be my couple from college 1A, 1B. I love those. So, yeah, appreciate y'all tuning in.

Like I said before, sorry, BD couldn't be here. Hope my dog feel better. BD, you hear this, you feel better, my dog. Thank you all. Remember, BD and I will be back after game one of the NBA Finals with a new episode, breaking down the finals and everything else going on around the league.

Check that out. to that. Until next time, that's a rock. Peace.