The Herd with Colin Cowherd - The Favorites - Gambling's Wild History with David Schwartz

Episode Date: March 11, 2025

Did Pennsylvania start as the payment of a gambling debt? Why did American sports betting take so long to legalize? And what do Congress and deadly river accidents have to do with betting? Action Network hosts Chad Millman and Simon Hunter get answers to these questions and many more from today's guest. He's the nation's preeminent gaming historian David Schwartz, a long-time UNLV professor and author of Roll The Bones and Something For Your Money, two of producer Matt Mitchell's favorite books. He loves these books so much he has joined today's episode, and our Action Network trio pepper Professor Schwartz with questions to unearth some of gambling's rich history.  And to RSVP for The Favorite's free live event in Chicago on March 29th, be sure to follow this link to reserve your spot! #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey guys, it's us The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it.

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And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was crying. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in. He's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love.

This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your This week on Crimless, Rory and I welcome a very special guest. When I did podcasts, I wear my sleep masks. I like where this is going. So if you guys will indulge me. That's right, the incredibly talented and hilarious Will Ferrell on an episode dedicated to crimes committed by people named Will Ferrell.

You're good for 300 crimes? Yeah. We've got two. I'm ready to go right up to present day. Listen to Crimless on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to the favorites, the podcast presented by Bet365. We are part of the Volume Podcast Network. I am Chad Milman of the Action Network.

We are live from our Tommy John Home Studios. I'm joined, as always, by my co-host, my companion, my compadre, my BFF professional, better, Simon Hunter. Hello, Simon. Chad, what's going on, brother? Listen, I feel like. I'm more of a interested student in the glorious, colorful, exciting past that is betting and the sports betting world. It's how I got into it, right? Like, I was never better first,

writer second. I was writer first who loved the psychology. I love the history. I love the story of the mob. I love sort of the characters who populate the world of sports betting. And so, you know, we had Mitchell had come up with this great idea a few weeks ago where he did some great old gambling stories and some of which he stole from an excellent book called Roll the Bones. And today, we are joined by the author of Roll the Bones, a long time professor at UNLV University, Nevada, Las Vegas, the nation's preeminent, gambling, historian. Roll the Bones, we know is Matt's favorite book. So imagine Matt's delight when we found out our author and our guest has a brand new book that just came out in January. called Something for Your Money, the History of Las Vegas Casinos, available now, wherever books are sold.

He's someone I've known for years. He was a regular and patient source when I would head out to Vegas during my ESPN days and was out there for a variety of stories. Welcome to the show, Dave Schwartz. Thanks for having me, Chad. Thanks for having me. Listen, your book has thrown Matt Mitchell for a loop. He can't believe this book exists. He can't believe it tells every story that he's been dying to know for years.

Can you please, for Matt Mitchell's sake and for the sake of our listeners, who are all avid, interested parties in betting, how did you end up doing this? Well, I grew up in Atlantic City, New Jersey, just around the time that they legalized gambling. So one of my earliest memories was them blowing up the old hotels and building casinos. So as a kid, I was really curious, like, why do people gamble in casinos? Why are they blowing up all the old hotels and stuff like that? So when I went to grad school, I decided to write a dissertation on that. And that started me on the road to studying the history of gambling and casinos.

And so you wrote Roll the Bones. You wrote something for your money, which just came out. Both of them are packed with deliciously colorful stories about, not just sort of the recent history of betting, but the entire history of betting. Gambling is so intertwined with the history of America, right? From lotteries being how we paid for the American Revolution. Lotteries were how Harvard and Yale were funded and founded. This is, it is core to the American experience.

All that said, what were your favorite stories when researching these books? Yeah, you know, it's kind of interesting. One fun story, it just shows how far we've come politically and in a lot of ways. So in the 1828 election, which was the rematch of Andrew Jackson against John Quincy Adams, one of the scandals was that John Quincy Adams allegedly had bought a billiards table for the White House. And there is an outrage that how dare he buy gambling equipment with public money? Ironic because Andrew Jackson was a huge degenerate gambler, just like absolutely would love

the bet on horses, just totally sick, sick gambler. So it's kind of funny that they cues the New England, John Quincy Adams, the intellectual of being a gambler, you know. They tried to do some spin. And these days again, the president or the candlelight wouldn't speak for themselves. they would have people speak for them. So they tried to do some spin and said, well, you know, he didn't really buy it. He doesn't gamble.

He just has it so that the visiting aristocrats have something to do. And like, oh, now you're an aristocrat. Now you're better than us. So trying to make it better made it worse. And it was one of those things, you know, probably public frustration over the banking system. All those issues were the things that probably really got Jackson in the White House. But, you know, this was a little part of it. So I think that's fascinating, that gambling had a role in this very pivotal election, 1828.

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to reserve your spot follow the link in this episode's description or just Google favorites podcast event Chicago and the RSVP site pop right up. RSVP, free drinks, free fun, me and Simon hanging out with you all of you. Listen, when you were thinking about this as a field of study or thinking about what your first book was going to be, next book was going to be, how you're teaching, gambling, as a professor. How do you frame the idea of risk and gambling into the evolution of the country that we see today? Well, it really is an essential part. If you look at it, you know, America, United States, it really is a place of second chances, and that means that things didn't go well

your first chance. So there is this idea that the United States is just tolerant of risk, and that's how things happen. And sometimes it goes really well. Sometimes it doesn't go so great, but there's always another shot. Matt or Simon, I don't want to monopolize if one of you want to jump in. I know Matt, you've got a lot of questions.

I let Matt fly. Dave, one of my favorite anecdotes from Roll the Bones is about William Penn. Is it true that the land that would become the state of Pennsylvania was potentially the repayment of a royal debt. Yeah, you know, that is the story. Obviously, I wasn't there. So when he signed that marker, but William Penn, so William Penn was a Quaker leader.

Anybody from Philly, you know, I went to school in Philly, so the statue of Billy Penn. So he was a Quaker. Quakers were not the most popular group in England at the time. And somehow he got this group. grant for Pennsylvania, which is a really lucrative part of what would become the colonies and later the U.S. And the story was

Sir William Penn, William Penn, the Quaker's father, was a gambling buddy of King Charles I. Second. And when Sir William Penn died, Charles I owed him a lot of money. And basically, on his deathbed, said, just take care of my son and we're good.

And supposedly that's where it came from. So that's how the Quakers ended up with Pennsylvania. and that's how we get to the Eagles, I guess. And that's the most remarkable thing about this book. That's like 55 words in this book. And then you just move on to 700 other fascinating things. It really is a remarkable piece of literature. Do we have any idea where Charles II and William Penn were gambling?

Yeah, probably Faroe. F-A-R-O. That was the popular game back. So probably Farrow, but it could also have been a number of card games, you know, not poker, because I wasn't invented yet, but a number of, there are a number of earlier bidding card games that would eventually kind of evolve into poker. And the king had a marker? Like, how does it?

Yeah, well, not literally. That's just my gambling. Again, like having worked in the casino industry, you kind of use the terminology, but basically it has a gambling debt, not legally collectible, but morally collectible. And that's the thing about gamblers, is that they rather, pay the gambling debt to prove that they're good for it, then not. So, yeah, Charles II was good for it in the end. And Pennsylvania is the proof.

Well, Simon, as a Philly adjacent native, this is in your territory. It is part of your history now to know that you are doing the right thing in your community by gambling as much as you possibly can. And it's crazy to think everything gets birth from the pen name. Penn Medicine. I mean, obviously, like you just talked about, our capital building has William Penn standing on the top of it. And it's pretty insane to think, not that Philadelphia is just known for betting. But at its core, I mean, I can't tell you many street bookies I knew Chad growing up where every neighborhood, every block has a different guy.

And it's starting to make more sense when you really think about the state and how it's founded and the people that live there. Because that was probably, I wouldn't say common knowledge right back then, but people must have. have known. I mean, everyone just talks. Everyone's at everyone's business. This is before, obviously, newspapers and everything like that. I mean, the word must have spread around town about how Pennsylvania got birthed. Am I assuming that right? Oh, yeah. And I think people knew how big, you know, Charles II was into a lot of that. He spent a lot of time in exile in France. The French then were the notorious gamblers, so kind of picked up that habit. And it's kind of interesting, too, when you look at people who don't like gambling, which there are people, for a while

in England, they said, well, this isn't a genuine English hobby. It's a French perversion that came into England. So it's kind of funny how that is spun, you know, and we see that happen throughout history. Well, look, you must have seen this through many stages in your research, whether it was, you know, England in the 1600s to sports betting and that being the third rail of gambling. I remember sitting with you in the UNLV library. and I think in the building where your department is. And we were talking about Delaware and New Jersey and how Delaware at the time that legalized New Jersey

had just filed suit to get passed by the Professional Amateur Sports Protection Act overturned. And you use the phrase sports betting is the third rail of all the betting types. Lottery, legal poker, legal casinos, Native American casinos, all of that. What do you think finally turned? In your point of view, from your very deep knowledge and base of perspective, what do you

think finally turned for sports betting? Well, it's interesting because if you look back in the 1950s when people in the government were researching, well, what is gambling and how's it happening? It was mostly illegal. And I remember, I think it might have been something that came out in New York City or somewhere, but this government study said, you know, the numbers, which was the illegal lotteries and policy, like, that's the worst. It's the most exploitative. Sports betting at least a better has a chance, but this is just the worst. And 10 years later, what did states legalize? Lotteries.

And at the time, there's a lot of debate. Well, if we were to legalize sports betting, what happens if the betters get lucky? Now, we owe money. So governments didn't want to do it because they didn't want to take on that liability. What happened? was the private casino companies basically because they have the casino itself to offset that and they can use a sports betting to draw people in. In the old model and the new model is just another revenue source because it's online, you know, basically once they got behind it, things shifted. But before that, states weren't really eager to legalize it because, you know, I mean, just imagine what it would be like if state of New Jersey or Pennsylvania or anyone was running,

you know, running a sports book. It would be very different. But wait a second. I had no idea that was the case. My understanding, and I didn't do any research on this, I just sort of assumed it, was that sports betting never really got traction because of moral issues. And you're saying it had nothing to do with it. It was really about the fear that they would all of a sudden be on the hook for customer-friendly outcomes, as they call them today,

and have to pay out and all of a sudden, instead of having a surplus, they've got a debt. Yeah, well, I think that, and again, I'm not in their mind, so I wasn't there back then. I don't know what they did,

but if we look at it, look at the different forms of gambling. Most states legalize lotteries first, highest margin. You know, then went into casinos. Yeah, they can tax it. They can make decent money. Sports betting was last because that has the narrowest margin.

And again, you know, you don't have that. It's not as dependable. So when they're doing, doing it for budgetary reasons. Like, okay, we're going to generate with a lottery. We can generate this much money a year to fund the schools. Sports betting, you know, not that stable. So I don't think there's a lot of people rushing to legalize it back then.

Hmm. It's always about the money. It's never about the morals, Dave. Simon, listeners are uncomfortable in their daily lives. They lack the confidence to achieve greatness. What they ask us, can they do? How can they transform their lives for the better? What tools do they lack?

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Because comfort is king, Chad. Right now, you can shop Tommyjohn.com slash favorites and get 25% off your first order. Save 25% at Tommyjohn.com slash favorites. That's Tommyjohn.com slash favorites. Hey, it's us to Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. Huge news.

We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special.

So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this.

We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it.

Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

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Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all. Embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know, in your book, Dave, you wrote a little bit about the Keefabre hearings. For those who don't know, I'll say it quickly so I can set up the question.

In the early 1950s, Estes Keefavar, who was a senator from Tennessee, very ambitious guy, there was a lot of consternation within communities, especially big cities, about the influence of organized crime. And so he set up this two years of investigations going city to city on a tour where he had subpoenaed the organized crime bosses and they were being forced to testify about their business and everything that was going on. To me, one of the biggest things that came out of it was the realization by the public that sports betting was the biggest revenue driver for organized crime.

And to me, Dave, I don't know if you have studied and seen differently, that felt like a death blow for sports betting that felt like a fun thing people did in the community to being sort of a nefarious, dangerous thing. And it changed that business's trajectory. Yeah, because if you look at the history of illegal gambling, right, back in the 20s, When we know organized crime was doing a lot of stuff, you would see, if you go back in the newspaper archives, we'll talk about local rackets boss. So there was like the Brooklyn rackets and the Waterfront rackets and the Newark rackets and the Philly rackets. It was all local.

Okay. What happens in 1950 and 51, the Keefe offer is, okay, he needs an issue. He wants to be president. He needs an issue. Kind of went into antitrust stuff, but that didn't excite people. McCarthy had already taken anti-communism. So that's gone. Well, what about gambling?

Well, wait, the local gambling you're doing with your bookie, that's actually part of this national or even international crime syndicate. So it's a national issue. So Congress has jurisdiction because it crosses state lines. And that's where it really shifted. That's where you had the idea of the mafia as a national organization or even international organization. Before that, it was all local. And again, it's kind of fun to go back in the archives and see when they start using that language. So, yeah, it did change the narrative because originally people said, well, yeah,

I'm just putting down a $2 bet. And there's a book in the archives called A $2 bet means murder. Wow. And it's trying to tell people, yeah, your harmless sports betting is actually funding organized crime. And that did shift the narrative. You're absolutely right. Yeah, there's nothing like a complete and total extraction from your $2 bet to that being the reason why the person down the street is getting knocked off. I mean, I feel like I've been killed by a small bet before.

It's done me that much. That makes sense. One of my kind of favorite themes of both your books, but there's so much, there's so much gambling embroiled in parts of American history and American culture, and really international, world history, going back hundreds of years. But one of my favorite anecdotes was that in the middle of the 19th century, the first major regulatory act in congressional history, so Congress has been around for like, whatever, 80 years, related to boiler construction and steamboat licensing. Could you explain why that was related to gambling?

Okay, so we all know this isn't the golden age of steamboats, all that fun stuff. Also, people use steamboats. They became gambling tools. People both gambled on them, you know, playing all kinds of games, especially poker. But also, people would bet which steamboat was going to get there first. The captains were cut in on it so they would have an incentive. And they found that captains and the crew would push the steamship so hard that boilers exploded. And they said, this is too much risk. We've got to cut back in this. So it is amazing how something like that. And it also shows how universal that gambling gene is. We're like literally the vessel you're riding on with the high pressure steam that is deadly that you know

has killed people before, you're still going to overload it just to get. And so, you're like, at that edge. That is wild. It's crazy that you report that in one year, 500 people died from this. And Congress is like, holy shit, guys, you keep blowing up your own passengers because you can't stop racing your steamboats. We are going to make our first ever regulatory action is hilarious. And obviously, you know a tremendous about Las Vegas and its history. And we'll dive into that shortly. But those steamboats obviously related to the big business. of New Orleans. Could you explain briefly, you know,

kind of how important New Orleans was to the development of American gambling pre-Las Vegas? Yeah, I mean, New Orleans is huge. It was really America's first gambling capital, without a doubt. You had the French, you had the Spanish, you had Native Americans, you had African cultures coming in there.

So you also had a lot of people, a lot of money. It was a thriving port. So it really is where if people in America wanted to gamble, most gambling was happening there, They experimented with legal gambling houses really early on in the 19th century. The games of poker and crafts were birth both born in New Orleans or near New Orleans. So really New Orleans in the 19th century was the capital of gambling in America without a doubt.

Incredible. Yeah, I just want to piggyback off that. I've thought a lot about this. And gambling to me, it's a really important part of my life. And, you know, you seem like someone that knows all about, I mean, every little detail, every story. And a story I love that I read a long time ago is about Native Americans didn't have a word for lie, but they did have a word for bet.

And I always thought that's such a human thing. Like at our core, I mean, think of the earliest man, what we said was, buddy, I bet you I can race you home and beat you in a race, or I can kill that animal before you can kill it, like a little bet like that. What is your discovery of the earliest bets ever written or made in human history? What goes way, it goes back really far.

I've got another layer of this, you know. So basically, for a lot of human, human history, people weren't living in settlements. The first settlements, you know, we find evidence of gambling, you know, primitive dice, things like that. And kind of the funny thing is, so like if we would say, and I'm not saying this is the absolute year, but if we say the earliest dice were 10,000 years old, the earliest cheating dice, crooked dice are like 9,999 years old. So cheating was also part of it, a long ways away. And it's kind of funny, like one of the more poignant stories is when Mount Vesuvius erupted and Pompeii was engulfed in ash, you know, in the taverns.

You know, there was this one thing where it was a gambling table and they had the guys' debts were like just scratched up on the wall. And I was just thinking like, suddenly there's all the ash and the lava coming down. And this guy's last thing is like, oh, man, I'm down. And then it. And then he's like, I'm great. I'm off the hook. I was actually thinking the guy who won is like, are you freaking kidding me? I finally hit a streak and now we're all going under.

This is ridiculous. Yeah. Really bad beat. Volcanic bad beat for sure. Yeah, volcanic. So yeah, I can't get worse than that. Oh, Matt Mitchell. That was good.

One thing I wanted to also point out from your book is you have this recurring theme, which I really enjoyed kind of to Simon's point of you, like you go back. back to the earliest bets made in humankind. But all the way up to the present day, you keep describing societies that are getting more and more advanced. Gambling exists because it's people are congregating. Then gambling is frowned upon. Then it is outlawed.

And then it is found to be totally irrepressible. And then it is eventually tolerated or regulated, but that it happens in every corner of the world over and over and over again for thousands of years. So looking back at the history of gambling, kind of. overall, and maybe Las Vegas specifically, our audience is mostly sports bettors. Like, what are the lessons that our audience can take away? Well, basically, I mean, there's a couple of them. First of all, people have always gambled.

I mean, obviously not everybody, but a lot of people have always gambled, but things do go in cycles. And there's no reason to think that people are going to keep on betting the way they're betting right now, you know, because if we look back, just looking at casinos in Vegas in the 60s, and we're just going to go back 60 years, which is not that much time historically, but like 60s, they're mostly playing craps. Blackjack is just starting to get big because skill play is just starting to get popular, but it's still mostly craps.

There's maybe a couple dozen slot machines. It's not that big a deal. And the casinos are a lot smaller. Go to the 90s, giant air-conditioned slot machine houses, just total slot machines. But the slot machines look really different than they are today. They're mostly stepers, a couple of video machines, but mostly stepers versus today. Less focus in the gambling, more focus in everything else. You've got electronic table games. You've got all kinds of things evolving. And that's, and think about how

sports betting has changed too with the advent of technology. And now you don't have to go to the bookie. Bookie is in your phone. So there's just a lot of that going on. And I think my other lesson is, you know, they say the house always wins. Usually the house does. But when it does, and this might be kind of ominous for sports betting, you know, when the house doesn't win, the house tends to change the rules. So if people find something, find an exploit, they will change the rules to prevent that

because the house has to win, otherwise they don't stay in business. Oh, for sure. That's another recurring theme throughout history. Well, look, that's also why the states didn't want to be in that business, right? They worried that they all of a sudden would have a season where they owe money

instead of taking in money and what do you do with, you know, that hole in the budget. Sports betting specifically, why do you think, I guess from your point of view, you said it'll change. How is it different than what you thought it would be when it was legalized, even in these past, say, seven years? Well, it's really interesting because if you look at the history of sports betting in Nevada, traditionally it was maybe, and I'm saying from the 80s onward when you had the advent of casinos being in sports betting, it was maybe 1% of total Nevada gaming revenue, maybe 1%. You know, then in the early 2010s we get up to 2%

and kind of into 3%. So it really is something. In Nevada, it really is an amenity to bring people in. And the whole idea that they had is, I don't want my hot blackjack player leaving to go someplace else to place a So I'm going to have this here, even if it doesn't make money. And, you know, every slot manager in the world is saying, if I had that space that the sports book has or the poker room has, I could make the revenue to make an year.

I could make in a month. You know, and like true. But then they're going to leave to go bed in someplace else and they're going to gamble there. So they really did do it as an amenity. What we've seen, you know, in the past 10 years or even less, is the emergence of sports betting as a revenue source in its own. through online and mobile, which is something we have not seen in Nevada before. So that's totally different.

And it did, you know, way back when back in 2010, when I was trying to extrapolate, well, how big of a market is? It's like, well, if it's 2%, it'll be this. And it turned out to be a lot bigger than that because behavior's changed. So that's just proof that it happens. Yeah, I remember when I first started going out to Vegas and I was working on the odds and I would get the numbers from the Nevada Gaming Control Board of the total handle and then the hold for these sports books. And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, late 90s, early 2000s, it would be like six million a year in total revenue for every sports book in the state of Nevada.

I'm like, why the fuck am I writing this book? Because this thing doesn't matter at all. Like, we thought it was a big deal. And it means nothing within the overall scheme of what really is important in the state of Nevada. But it has always sports betting since really the state of Nevada legalized it in the 70s, I think, has had this outsized impact on the rest of the industry in terms of not. its importance, but a little bit of its glamour. Would you say that? Yeah, and obviously there was a lot more illegal betting going on back then, which I don't think

we even, you know, for a while the FBI estimated it. Then at some point they just kind of gave up. I learned that when I was researching another book, Cubbing the Wire, which was about online gaming and gambling prohibition. So it's kind of interesting to see how they eventually said, we don't know how much illegal gambling there is, illegal sporting there is going on. But we know it's big. So that's kind of the, yeah, that's kind of the, yeah, that's kind of, you know,

where that is. But Nevada did, you know, originally, yeah, they did view as an amenity, but now it's becoming a revenue source in its own right. This is a sloppily worded question, so apologies. But like, you could describe, let's say a thousand years of betting activity across the whole world, right? Yeah. All of them, all of the betting activity in every form, always involved other human parties and almost always leaving your home. And now only in the last, like, whatever, decade, you no longer need both of those things. How enormous of a change is that in the, from a cultural standpoint to like what betting is and how intrinsically human the activity is? It's a big change and it's one that's probably about five or six hundred years in the making to be a little, little, little, little dramatic there.

So if we think back, you know, to the dawn of gambling as we were saying like, yeah, can I throw this, you know, rock farther than you. Can I catch a animal before you? You know, that sort of thing. Like Simon was saying, yeah, that is personal. Oh, my horse is faster than your horse. All right. Well, I don't know, but my buddy's horse is faster than your buddy's horse.

Okay, now we're doing that. You know, my alma mater can beat your alma mater in football. Okay, you know, my favorite team can be your team. It was very personal. You have this shift to. mercantile gambling to commercial gambling that really happens, kind of really gets underway more in the Renaissance and that period of Reformation as you have the rise of sort of capitalism and fun things like that. And it intensifies in America with the invention of the slot machine.

We're like, if you think about what we did in America, we took gambling and we invented a machine that can gamble more efficiently, which is such an American thing. And that's late 19th century, 1899. This is what they were doing. And this is what Americans are doing. Like, oh, railroad will build a bigger railroad. Telegraph? Yeah, all across the country. Gambling?

Yeah, here's a machine that'll do that for you. So in every, okay, looking at betting, invention of the telegraph, hey, huh, now we can find out what's happening at racetracks all around the country. We can bet on them here. And that was really the first remote betting. And I argue that was the first remote. remote entertainment where people would actually be hearing them narrate like what's happened in the race and they're very excited.

And people were freaked out then because they're like, oh, my God, why are they jumping and yelling and screaming and stuff? And they're not even at the track. I would say it's probably the intrinsic power of the spoken word, Chad. Yeah. Timeless and evocative. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. And they had no concept of remote entertainment like today where we'll watch the game and get all excited even though we're not in the stadium. You know, they had no concept. That was how that was born. So it is really interesting. And every technological advancement, people are betting. You know, telephones, people are using telephones to bed.

Internet. People are using the Internet to bet. Mobile. People are using mobile now. I don't see any reason why that wouldn't continue. So which came first? This is a chicken and the egg. Is it gambling as a point of pride or gambling for the sake of gambling?

And I think there's a nuanced difference there, but before technology, gambling for the sake of pride, because you had had to be more in person and a little bit more about competition versus gambling that is at scale and is about gambling for gambling sake. Yeah. I mean, think about the difference between poker and slot machines. You know, poker. And I know everybody gets bad beats and stuff like that. but it comes down to, I'm better than you, and I'm taking your money because of skill. For the moment, though, yeah,

I mean, there are bad beats and stuff like that. And, you know, whereas slot machines is just, hey, I'm putting my money up and whatever it happens, happens. It's out of my hands. So it's that different, you know, people who just want that rush of gambling versus people who want to gamble to show their skill. You know, that is the difference right there.

And they probably, they always had a little bit of them, probably the skill dominated more early on, but since we've gone to more totally ramble, Totally random games, like slots, a little bit more of the pure gambling. That's why I love gambling though. Like slots now, there's an edge. Like I know guys who have quit sports buddy on what I do. And they literally live in books or outside sports books by the slot machines.

And they just watch people on machines. And they know timing wise that this machine's hot. Like this is this machine's ready to pop. Like they just watch them and play for hours. And they'll wait and jump on their machine, which is just to me, it's like crazy how people just find an edge. every little thing like you talked about. And, you know, go back 10,000 years with those fake dice, pros, everybody, they're always going to be finding an edge.

They might call that cheating. To me, that's a professional. That's someone trying to find an edge. So I love the breakdown of all these history right now. It's really interesting. You know, Nate Silver, not to plug another book, but talking about slots, he wrote a book that came out over the summer called On the Edge. And he had a section in there about people who, to your point, Simon, are looking to find

the edges in slot machines. I'd probably been to Vegas a thousand times, no exaggeration in my life. And I think that I've played slots zero times. Simon, like when you go to the casinos now, do you have any urge to do anything other than walk to the book, make your bet, and get out? Or will you stay and play poker? I know you love poker. Like, will you play poker, will you play blackjack? What is your menu? That's the running joke to how a lot of professional sports betterers is. It's like basketball players want to be rappers.

Sports betters want to be poker players and vice versa. Poker players. I know some really high-level poker players I've seen win many tournaments in Vegas, especially in 2014, I mean, 2015, when I was really down in Vegas a lot. And I would see these guys win 100K and then just go bet it on like a Lakers first half and lose it. And it's like that's also why these. Sportsbook exists, right? They're hitting these guys who are great at one thing, but something not great at

and they have confidence in when they shouldn't have confidence in. So, yeah, for me, slot machines, chat, I'm with you on that. The only time I've ever hit a slot machine is at the airport in Vegas. Like, that's the one time they'll get me. If I got eight hours to kill and I got the itch, I'll hit the slot machines and things like that. But I'm with you. The big thing for me is black check.

I told you, if I'm really nervous about a bet I made, I came and watch the game in the sports book because I can't be around all the people talking, anything like that. I'll go right across the blackjack table. You know, it can be the $20 limit. I don't even care. I'm just there to kill time while watching the game on one of the corner TV. So that's definitely my nervous jitters.

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you'll receive a $25 deposit match plus tier two status for faster bank deposits and more cash back. That's edgeboost. Dot bet. Promocode favorites. Hey, it's us, the Jonas brothers. And guess what? We have some big news.

What's the news, name? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there.

But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. And we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this.

We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an

a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smygel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis, and I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay. Jen Chinchin win. I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted.

She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lina Rubakina is arguably the best player in the world right now and I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Dave, do you get... Having worked in the casino and having... been awake at 4.30 in the morning, watching people gamble kind of kills all the romance. Yeah. What I'm doing at 430 is my business, Dave.

The one day the volcano's coming for me. So that's more times back, you know. It's just, yeah, you see things doing surveillance. It's like, uh, you know, just like, well, I'm not, part of it for me. It's like, I'm no smarter or luckier than these people. So it's not going to be somebody. I don't think it's going to be me. Our audience will not be surprised that I absolutely adore gambling.

I can think of the two casinos where I was made to move because they were shampooing the carpet while I was playing, which as you know, like, they're doing that at like 4 a.m. Christmas morning or whatever when they're like, no one will be here. We're never going to make anybody move. I proposed at the roulette wheel of the old Barbary Coast, then Bill's Gambling Hall. No. Yeah.

I did not know that story. She hit her number, and they pushed the chips out with the wrist. on top. I had had to take the ring because I was traveling for business and it was around Thanksgiving from Milwaukee to Denver to my family's Thanksgiving in Baltimore to Las Vegas. So it hit every time zone, which made me want to puke my guts out. Don't travel with a diamond ring. And then, yeah, I just assumed that the Bill's Gammon Hall would be fine with it. They were like, what the fuck are you talking about? I was like, oh, right, I forgot to like clue you in on this. I had lost enough money at bills historically that the pit boss was like, oh, dude, no problem, no problem. And he showed

the ring to the camera, placed it on the chips and said, I'll clear this table out. And then you have to get, you have to fill it. So I got my family who would come with me. And we sat down and she lost every spin. She played 10 numbers at a time. So you're going to win about one in every four spins. She lost 12 spins in a row. It was absolutely excruciating. I'm sweating through my clothes. by now the pit boss has told every other table in the vicinity of what's happening. So every time she lost, there were audible groans coming from the other tables, which she thought she was being mocked. But yeah, it was great.

And we're November 2010. So still going strong. She said yes, by the way. Still going strong. Yeah, it's great. Dude. I got to put out another edition because that's the best gambling story I heard. Oh, I remember when I told the bill sports book because of course she says, yes, we hug.

And then I'm like, I got to go make some more bets. And I said, hey, I just got engaged. And the guy's like, sounds good. I go, no, I got engaged here. The reaction of the Bill's Gaming Hall sports book employees to that I had chosen to get engaged in that casino at that time. I've never seen people ask more clarifying questions. They would have been less incredulous if I told them I arrived there on a dragon, but to their credit. They gave me the whole book of drink tickets.

So shout out to the now defunct Bill's Gambling Hall corner of Flamingo in the strip. That is legendary, Matt. I don't know how we've known each other for as long as we have, and you've never told me that story. This is by total coincidence. I'm drinking from a Bill's Gambling Home mug as you speak, which I bought that day. You've told me every boring, long gambling story of your entire life, and you've never told me that story. I'm just full of surprises, Chad. You know, we all contain multitudes.

Dave, you just said something that I wanted to follow up on. You worked surveillance at casinos. Oh, yeah. Yeah. back when that was my postgraduate work. So when I was in undergrad, I worked security. After I went and got a PhD, I came back, moved back to Atlantic City and went into surveillance. If I got to take out to the loading docks, were you out there with them or you were still in the back room just in their earpiece?

Yeah, take him out the back door. Just to know, I mean, yeah, I was kind of thinking about this. I really like doing security because you're out there, you know, you're out with people. You're interacting. You're on the floor. You got all that excitement. In surveillance, you're just up in the room. And it's like sometimes it was kind of fun,

kind of like mystery science theater 300, just like watching TV and like making jokes and stuff. Other times it was just, there's a lot of tedium. There's a lot of tedium. Just watching people doing repetitive motions again and again. And you kind of pick up like when someone's gambling, like they're very focused and they're gambling. So if somebody's gambling and they're looking around,

well, maybe I got to watch them because they shouldn't be doing that. They should be folks. I remember one time there's this guy, playing slots and I'm like, he's really nervous. He's gambling. He's like really nervous. I'm like, he's rubbernecking. Okay. I'm pretty sure he's doing a sort thing with slugs. I'm like all zoomed in. Like, yeah, man, he's, I'm going to get him. This is great. Then I assume it was his wife comes down and it's like, ah. And that's why he was nervous because he was waiting for his, maybe he was going to propose. I don't know. Yeah, it's so funny. I'm like, I thought I had it.

I was so excited. Like, yeah, I got finally got one. I got a slot scam here. didn't have a slot scam. Mostly, I think I had, you know, just a couple of purse-snatching kind of things, those kinds of things. Did you get pretty good, though, at being able to tell if someone was trying to count cards or cheat at the table at all? Now, they had a count team for that, so that was kind of beyond what I did then. You know, it was more just basically watching the money.

And again, it is very, a lot of tedium, just watching the money. let's say there's an overage or an underage, underage is worse, at a cash window. You've got to go back and watch that cashier's whole shift. And basically they're shooting it from the top down. So you're watching it slow motion, them putting out the money, proving the chips, stacking the chips. Okay, I know it's $270. And we're $100 short. So boom, boom, boom.

Oh, wow. Now I see a transaction where the cashier was $80 short. So now I've got to look for $80 transactions too, not just the big ones. That was like, yeah, my soul left my body. I remember I spent like three shifts scrutinizing this one thing. And then Supervisor was like, it probably happened during tape change because back then they had tapes. I was like, oh, God, never felt so defeated. A lot like batting.

Feels like you were in the middle of basketball. Yeah. Yeah, because I'm like, yeah, I know I'm going to find this. And, you know, they're, yes. So that's, yeah, that was quite a thing. Dave, one of the themes of both books is the everything that is old is new again. And one of my favorite examples is in the middle of the 19th century, you have Francois Blanc and he runs a bunch of incredibly successful casinos.

He's the guy that made Monte Carlo a luxurious gambling location, right? and he's visited by Napoleon's nephew. And he's a big celebrity. They can't wait to have him. And he rolls up and bets only the table maximum for like three days. And he kicks the shit out of the casino. He wins an absolute fortune. And then before they can win it back, he just pepacks his stuff and leaves very abruptly.

They could barely make the payment. He took like basically all their cash on hand. But in the all that is old as new again, they were like, what are we going to do? He goes, here's what we're going to do. Tell every person in every contact that we have across Europe that this guy cleaned us out. We are total dopes. Tell them exactly how much you won.

Tell them how easy it was for him. Let everybody know, we are ripe for the picking. Looses slots in town kind of mentality. And it worked. The next year was their most profitable year on record. It feels like the sports books helping to promote the long shot parlays that hit. That like there's a universality. There's a timelessness to all these tricks.

I'm sure you have a million examples. Oh, yeah. And it is just that basic psychology where people report the big wins, but nobody reports the losses. We assume everyone else is winning but me, so I'm going to win soon because that's all I hear about. And, you know, in Vegas, when somebody wins at the airport slots, that makes the local news. Like, somebody wins, you know, $50,000 in slots. It's like, what about all the people who didn't win today at the slots? How come that's not newsworthy?

So, yeah, that is a thing. I don't think that's ever going to go away. Yeah. People think all these things are new inventions. It's like they've been doing, they've been following a playbook that is hundreds of years old. All I heard from that, Matt, is that guy won a lot and the casino lost a lot. And the next year, the casino made it back, which means Simon and I next year, we are freaking due. I mean, the advertising obviously would have worked on me.

So I can also appreciate the universality of the advertising because I definitely would have been like, all right, pack our buggies or whatever. Get on the railroad. We got to hit this casino in France. Dave, I want to thank you for coming on. Roll the Bones, which is a great book, a great reference book full of amazing anecdotes, something for your money. Another fabulous book. Congrats on the release early this year. Matt's not wrong when he tells me to say you are the.

preeminent Vegas casino historian. You got it all. Thanks for providing so many good stories. Thanks. It means a lot coming from you guys too. Humbling and gratifying. Yeah, I'm glad, you know, and I hope people do like the books. It's just trying to share a little bit of that excitement and some of these cool stories that have happened. Everyone go by the books. As a reminder, the favorites podcast is presented by Bet365 and now new Bet365 customers get $150 in bonus bets when you bet $5. Sign up using promo code favorites. Deposit $10, place a bet for $5 to get $150 in bonus bets.

Those bonus bets can be used on spreads, totals, player props, futures, and more. Whatever the moment, it's never ordinary. A bet three so five must be 21 or older and present in. Arizona, Colorado, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, North Carolina, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Virginia, or 18 and older in Kentucky. Gambling problem called 1,800 gambler, or 1,800 bets off in Iowa. Terms, conditions, restrictions apply. Simon and I will return

worth our next episode of the favorites on the Action Network YouTube page this Thursday. 11 a.m. Eastern, talking free agency in the NFL with Chris Raybon. Download us from Spotify, Apple Pods. Wherever you get your pods, rate, review, subscribe, leave us five stars, say whatever you want. Feedback as a gift. Until next time, love you.

Action Network reminds you. Please gamble responsibly. If you or someone you care about has a gambling problem, help is available 24-7. 7 at 1-800 gambler. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what?

We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it. But, you know, tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcast. Just listen. Don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. Help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast, Point Game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my

greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was hungry. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game 7, Marquis keep coming to you. He's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the I Heart Radio, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Crimless, Rory and I welcome a very special guest. When I did podcasts, I wear my sleep masks.

I like where this is going. So if you guys will indulge me. That's right, the incredibly talented and hilarious Will Ferrell on an episode dedicated to crimes committed by people named Will Ferrell. You're good for 300 crimes? Yeah. We got two. I'm ready to go right up to present. day.

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