The Herd with Colin Cowherd - The Herd - Hour 1 - Moving up in the draft

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

Teams should be cautious when moving up in the draft to get a QB The Mavericks should cut their loses and move on from Kyrie Irving Thoughts on QBs who run too muchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

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NFL trade rumors this in LA is the herd wherever you may be and however you may be listening or viewing thanks for Megan Us part of your day one hour from now I'm going to make my five NBA playoff predictions

that is one hour from now playing game start tonight J. Mack I got stuff to do last night I was bored I watched the big short again anything Michael Lewis writes, Moneyball, I watched it over the weekend, the big short last night. I'm in a Michael Lewis tunnel here where all his stuff I'm reading and watching, rewatching.

That's a great movie. Very good movie. I went to bed early last night because I'm going to the Laker game tonight. Maybe I'll see Shannon Sharp there. Got to watch the Lakers dominate the Timberwolves tonight. But I have a feeling. It's going to be kind of a close game calling. I bet the dog last night.

All right. So we start with this, though. Jason touched on this yesterday. six teams are considering moving up in the NFL draft to the number three spot. That's Arizona. Okay. And they're not moving up for an edge rusher. They're moving up for a quarterback.

So the closer you get to the draft, teams fall in love with the quarterback's upside. We saw it with Philadelphia and Carson Wentz and Washington and RG3. And the Packers moved up for Jordan loves athleticism. and Trey Lance are the Niners, they move up. And it works, Josh Rose in Arizona. It works just enough. Mahomes, Chiefs, Josh Allen, Bill's, Lamar Jackson, Ravens. The teams will keep trying.

But the truth is it doesn't really work ever unless you have things in place. You could say Mahomes. Well, Kansas City made the playoffs the year before. Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, let's look at these. even when you move up and it has initial success, Jared Goff to the Rams, they moved up, Deshawn Watson to the Texans, they moved up. It's not long-term success.

So let's look at the three times it's really worked, Patrick Mahalms. Well, we should put an asterisk around anything with Andy Reid. Almost everything works at quarterback with Andy Reid. So they had made the playoffs the year before. The culture with Andy Reid was set. and we had a Hall to Fame coach. Now, Mahomes is talented, but things were in place. What about Josh Allen?

They made the playoffs the year before. They had their culture set, new GM, new coach. They had a good roster, not great yet, but they had momentum. What about Lamar Jackson? They have John Harbaugh, excellent roster, very good culture, already set. Now, they just missed the playoffs. But in the three that worked, and we think have really worked, Mahomes, Josh Allen and Lamar, first, all are historically, uniquely gifted.

Mahomes may be the single most talented quarterback ever. Josh Allen is 6'6-260. Last three years averages over 40 touchdowns running and throwing. And Lamar Jackson's probably the most electrifying runner ever at the position. So those are Hall of Fame levels. unique talents. But even they only work, in my opinion, to the level they work because they joined either an excellent coach or an excellent roster or an excellent culture. Chicago, by Thanksgiving, could be 0 and 2 on moving up to get a quarterback. Overwhelmingly, here's the truth about it.

If you're drafting a quarterback and you're moving up to draft a quarterback to save your franchise, it will not work, like almost ever. And even if you're not drafting him to save a franchise and you have a brilliant offensive coach, Kyle Shanahan, it may not work. Arizona needed Josh Rosen to save him. Mitch Trubesky was going to save them. You start looking at well-run organizations, Green Bay. It doesn't work. Moving up for a quarterback almost never works. I think Bryce Young, Deshawn Watson and Jared Goff stabilized the franchise, but had certain ceilings, either emotionally, physically. Deshawn Watson's case, there's a criminal investigation at one point.

So this idea that moving up, you know, it works. It doesn't really work. It doesn't really work. Buffalo, Kansas City, Baltimore worked because all these teams had momentum and things in place. and great coaches and good rosters and momentum. It doesn't work. That's why the one team that can move up to three that is interesting would be Seattle. They just made the playoffs.

They have a Hall of Fame level coach. They have a very, very good roster. They've got momentum. Seattle moving up would not be drafting a quarterback to save the franchise. Mahomes didn't save the chiefs. They just made the playoffs. Lamar didn't save the Ravens. Sean McDermott needed a quarterback to take the team to another level,

but they were good enough to make the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor. So if you go Will Levis or Anthony Richardson in Seattle, it's not saving anything. What you're hoping is they sit behind Gino for a year. They learn the system and they can elevate a coach and a culture and a roster that's overwhelmingly plus momentum in place. If you're moving up to save the franchise and an average roster, folks, it doesn't work. It just fails almost every time.

Okay, so I saw this story. And there are certain reporters when they talk, I listen. Ramona Shelburne's really, really good. ESPN. So Ramona Shelburne is adamant. The Mavs will be able to strike a deal with Kyrie Irving this story. summer. She says they feel very good about keeping Kyrie. When they traded for him, they had an

option to sign him for a two-year extension. He wants more than two years. He wants four. So the question is, will they be willing to go to a fourth year for Kyrie Irving? And I look at this. And again, I trust Ramona. Implicitly. She's great. So it doesn't matter if it's a podcast business. It doesn't matter if it could be any business. It could be a landscaping business. One of the first rules of business. Double down on stuff that works. Something works early in your business. Double down on it. Seize the momentum and move off stuff quickly if it doesn't. Don't be stubborn and think your idea is great. Amazon started as a bookstore. Netflix was essentially blockbuster. They all moved off stuff, evolve, adapted. Now they're

mega companies. Don't fall in love with your ego and your idea. If stuff works, double down, if it doesn't get out of it. I appreciate the Maverick's big swing on Kyrie. But it doesn't work. You can't double down on it. And I think this is one of the innate differences between pro football and pro basketball in America. In the NFL, teams don't get trapped.

Everybody's scared to death to get trapped. In the NFL, even if something kind of works, OBJ to the Rams, concerned for his injuries, they move off it. Ju-Ju-Ju-Smiths Schuster to the Chiefs. Do you know he led the Chiefs in targets for a receiver? It worked. He had a good Super Bowl. They get off it.

He's distracted. He's immature. They move off it. Even in the NFL, if stuff works, they're more than willing to see OBJ's injury history, Ju-Ju's distracted history and move off it. In the NBA, stuff doesn't work. A Ben Simmons.

A Russell Wesson. And teams will take another chance and another chance. Like Kyrie Irving and Luca do not work. There's three things and three reasons that are not going to change. First of all, they're both moody players. Like they're just, Michael Jordan was relentless. Pippin understood that and could step aside for him. Right?

Like you have to know what your star is. Steph Curry, not a defender. Clay took up the slack defensively when he came into the league. These guys are both moody. He either wants to play a lick of defense and both need the ball constantly. Like, it's not hard to figure out. I'm not an NBA scout. It's not going to work.

It's just not going to work. So their games don't work and their personalities don't mesh. And I think that's a bigger thing than people want to realize. Of the many reasons, Kevin Durant works everywhere is that he gets along with most everybody. I mean, he and Draymond Green had a brief spat. He and Steph Curry weren't perfect, but Draymond gets along with everybody. He gets along with Kyrie and Steph, Steve, Kerr, he can squabble, he can, but it works everywhere because Kevin, his personality, he's a

baller, he's chill, like that's a part of it. And so the personalities here don't work. The games don't work. Neither wants to defend. Neither wants to give the ball up. And you know how like wine ages well? Wine gets better with time. Kyrie's like, he ages like dairy. It's good for a couple a day's, then it curdles pretty quickly, and then within like two weeks, it's either mold or cheese, but you don't want any part of it. Like, this is not going to get better over time. The longer Kyrie's been anywhere, Boston, Brooklyn, Cleveland, Dallas. Remember, this was pretty good for the first four games, and then it curdled, and now you don't want any part of it. NFL teams and maybe they're paralyzed at times by this,

but NFL teams don't want to get trapped. It's a hard cap. Even when stuff kind of works, there's a sense in the NFL, okay, pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered, let's not get greedy with OBJ. He gets hurt. Let's not get greedy with Juju Smith-Schuster. He can be distracted. Let's move them.

Let's somebody overpay for him. Patriots on Juju Smith-Schuster. Ravens on OBJ. But I can appreciate the swing, but not want to double down on something. If Ramona says it, I believe it, and that doesn't work at all for me. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the IHeard Radio app. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down,

and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but yeah, yeah. But just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode

where we've discussed, correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Now you're finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So I see this story. The media in America, sports media is paralyzed by everybody getting the bag.

I've always said this. If I ran an NFL team or an NBA team, I would pay big money very rarely, very infrequently. You want the bag. I want more data. A lot of people have great seasons. A lot of people are good if everything lines up. Dak Prescott looked great as a rookie. But increasingly, the more time you saw them as the offensive line aged, as Zeke

aged, DAC had to be supported. greatly to really be great. When he had to carry the cowboys, he's not the same quarterback. More data, get you more truth. So Jalen Hertz, the story is today. He's probably going to sign something this year for seven years, $345 million reset the quarterback market.

I like Jalen Hertz. Let's not be into the let's get him the bag. Let's get more data. Like I have two major concerns, and these are reasonable concerns for every GM in the league, since I've talked to him. Number one, he runs more than any quarterback in the history of the league not named Lamar Jackson. 11 rushes a game.

And Philly leans into his legs a lot in the last two years at the end of the year he's gotten banged up. We've seen what running a lot's done to Lamar. He has started and finished one game out of 12 for Baltimore in the last two years. So Philly leans heavy into his legs way more than a Josh Allen. And Josh Allen, to me, runs too much. and he's 6-6-2-50. And I've been saying for two years, Josh Allen runs too much.

Takes too many hits. Number two is, Jalen Hertz has flourished with one offensive coordinator. Well, Colin, Josh Allen. No, Josh Allen's gotten 35 touchdowns, three straight years. Two different coordinators. Again, Josh Allen is wildly productive. He was wildly productive in college.

He was wildly productive since his late rookie year. That's not an issue with him. Day Bowl, 35 touchdowns this past year. 35 touchdown passes, seven rushing touchdowns. And Jalen Hertz, everything worked. He had a brilliant offensive coordinator, who's now a head coach, the number one ranked O line, a pro bowl running back. The Eagles always have great tight ends and two star receivers. Like everything fell in place in the much weaker NFC.

I like Jalen Hertz. I like him a lot, but can we get to Thanksgiving? giving. More data is usually a really smart decision on anything. Can I get a little more data? I like Jalen Hertz, but he had 22 touchdown passes this year. 22. That's about half of Josh Allen. And that's for the better O line. Allen's got a weak O line, a Pro Bowl running back. Josh doesn't have one of those. Great wide receiving core. Stefan Diggs and question marks for Bob. Buffalo. Buffalo also had a brilliant offensive coordinator, an offensive head coach.

Josh is working with a defensive culture and giving you 35 touchdowns and seven rushing touchdowns last year with an OC we didn't like, who's blown up in the cubicle upstairs, who people are like, he's not as good as the last guy. So I like Jalen Hertz a lot. I think I'd pay him a lot of money. I thought he was unbelievable in the Super Bowl. But all that stuff last year that worked to perfection, he had 22 touchdown passes. and he's running 11 times a game.

Only Lamar Jackson historically has run more, and Lamar's falling apart. So just take a deep breath. You don't have to rush to pay people. Now, I do think by Thanksgiving, if he's putting up these numbers, boom, we're set. New O-C. O-Line's getting a little older. I like him a lot. But this idea that you're anti-player, if you're pro-patience,

If you're pro, can I have a little more data? This isn't Mahomes where literally Peter Schrager was texting me his rookie year when he wasn't playing. You're not going to believe this kid. He's going to be the, this isn't like Lamar Jackson, where Lamar Jackson was the MVP in his first full year. And like Lamar was, it didn't even look like any other player. Like Jalen was a second round pick, a little smaller than you like, runs more than you like,

surrounded by Best O line. Pro Bowl back. Great tight ends. Unbelievable receivers. Brilliant. Take a deep breath. Lamar was really blowing up. He's never had good receivers.

Lamar was MVP. He didn't have good receivers. I could be wrong on this, but I think his MVP year, didn't they lose a bunch of running backs? He's had injuries all over that organization. I can like somebody and want an organization to show a little patience. How about eight more games? How about we get to Thanksgiving?

This isn't like a Daniel Jones situation where I'm not paying him because I got four years. I got four years in multiple coaches and I still don't see it. I see it. But I also see 11 rushes a game. I also see last couple of years dinged up. Just give you a few more starts and we'll go there and reset the market. This isn't also Joe Burrow, who by the way went to a bad organization, carried a terrible offensive line to a Super Bowl and one play from winning.

it doesn't feel quite like that it doesn't feel like again josh allen 6-6-2-50 35 touchdowns a year seven rushing touchdowns a year and doesn't have much to work with offensively doesn't feel like that either yet j mac with the news no no no no turn on the news this is the herd line news yeah the hurts one is super tricky because all those quarterbacks you mentioned are first round picks he's a second round yeah so he's a second round yeah so they have to make a decision this year And my guess is they will pay him. Well, Colin, let's remember.

He did do anything his first year. He was like a spot guy running. Second year, all they did was run in the second half to get to the playoffs. Yeah. So he's basically proven for one year he looks like a starter. Yeah. To give him Mahomes money seems a little insane. Yes, I think so.

Is that real? Are we sure that they're considering Mahomes money after one year? That's what the article said. And we both like him. I thought he was brilliant in the Super Bowl. I'm not. Oh, he's excellent. He looked excellent.

Yeah, but it is. They run him. Philly leans into the running thing. 11 rushes a game. So I've been on this for two years. Josh Allen's 6-6-250 and doesn't get hurt. And I think they run him way too much. So they're running him significantly more than Josh Allen.

He's a smaller athlete, already been hurt. And I do think that offense they run, it's highly effective. But it is a little dependent. on the push on third and short. Do you remember how quickly the league figured out the Colin Kaepernick situation in San Francisco? Yeah, but he's a way better thrower of the football in Kaepernick. Yeah, but Kaepernick was putting up monster numbers in San Fran with a, I don't want to say gimmicky offense, but heavy running.

And then all of a sudden, boom, they figured him out and Kaepernick was kind of rendered useless. I'm not saying they're going to figure out Hertzac quickly. Yeah. But I'm not paying him homes money. Absolutely not. No, no, no. I'm not, we're not going to go there. Yeah.

And I, would you, again, because this year you have to make a decision. Is it a reasonable take to say, let's get to Thanksgiving? I said that with Daniel Jones. Let's get to Thanksgiving. I, at Thanksgiving, said he's not the guy. What is Jalen Hurst going to say? What if I tear my ACL on Halloween? I'm screwed.

So these quarterbacks, man, some of these guys, the Baker-Mayfield's shoulder with Cleveland a couple years ago really screwed everything up. Because he tried to play through it because he wanted that contract. Didn't work out. And, you know, Kyler Murray pounded the table for his contract. Got it. Got it. doesn't want to get hit anymore.

What a bad deal that was, you know? Yeah, no, if you go look at the last 10 big money contracts, like Mahomes is one of the few where you're like totally happy with it. Is the franchise tag in play for Hertz? Because he's not going to be happy with that. Yeah, I mean, I think I, no, I like him. First of all, I like his leadership. I like who he is.

I like his work ethic. I like everything about him. But I just think, let's get to, we just say, listen, we want to work in a contract. We don't want it to be distracting. let's sit down over the holiday break. I mean, I just think his agent wants it now and he wants it now. But the track record is these big money contracts, you kind of end up outside of Mahalms going, is it worth it?

There's a lot of it. Is it worth it? It leads right to Lamar Jackson, who's still not under contract for the Ravens next season. But everybody's optimistic following the O'Dell Beckham signing. Lamar reportedly recruited Odell. That's the report. recruited O'Dell Beckham and there was a clear understanding that Lamar will be Odell's quarterback next season. The two celebrated together after the deal. Conlon, this is kind of interesting. I talked to a long-time Raven season ticket holder last night and they told

me, Jason, Lamar Jackson saved Harbaugh's job in Baltimore. People don't want to talk about that. Yeah. But after they won the Super Bowl, right, they went eight and eight, and then they got to the playoffs. Three straight years after that, no playoffs. And they were four and five. Well, And Lamar comes in mid-season, goes on a six-and-one tear, and he saved Harbaugh's job. And I remember, we were doing a show here. Yeah. It's almost like Breeze and Peyton. So Flacco wins the Super Bowl, gets a massive contract, and the Ravens roster isn't nearly as good, and Harbaugh pays the price.

So then they put in Lamar, they're paying nothing. Now they can give him good players. Remember Drew Breeze took the big money? And all of a sudden, for three straight years, the Saints and Sean Payton weren't any good. And then Breeze looked at Brady and went, I'm going to rework my contract. The Saints then could add more players and Breeze and Payton end up, you know, winning a lot of games. So Baltimore and New Orleans, their quarterback has success.

They give them the bag. And for three years, we all know what happens in Green Bay. Or in, you know, we know what happens in the league. If the quarterback's a top three cap hit, Tanna Hill and Tennessee, you can't have enough good players around him. And so I think Baltimore says, hey, we've done this with Flacco. We paid them a lot of money. and it limits our flexibility. And I don't understand fans

when they root for players to get rich. Root for your team to have flexibility. Mahalms deal gives Kansas City enough flexibility to bring in a jujuice Ms. Schuster, to bring in a top player, and then move off him. Right, but then you're rooting for billionaires over millionaires.

I want the players to get paid. I know the team, but I'm not really rooting for laundry. I'm like invested in these guys. And seeing it, again, I know it's over the top, but a couple years ago, we were doing another show, and I looked it up online. A lot of topics. You know, is John Harbaugh on the hot seat?

Is Harbaugh in trouble? No, no, no. And Lamar literally saved his job. I'm not disputing that. And I would pay Lamar. Yeah. Okay. In fact, you know, we've both been on the pay Lamar.

The question becomes how long guaranteed. So last year was guaranteed. If your franchise tag him, it's guaranteed. So clearly Baltimore has been willing to give him two years guarantee. Lamar wants four. They probably are willing to give him three years guaranteed. Let's do that. Lamar should be had three years fully guaranteed.

I'd be okay with that. And then he gets another bite of the apple at 29, right? Yeah. He'll get his money. He'll get his money. Yeah. But it's, you know, it's not an either or. We want Lamar paid.

But you can't just give him Mahomes money and lock it all in guaranteed. Just because somebody did it with Deshaun Watson, the Vikings did it with Kirk Cousins. Green Bay still never guaranteed Aaron Rogers all his money. A Vikings and a Brown's mistake doesn't have to be your mistake. I would not give Lamar Jackson a fully guaranteed deal with his health injuries. We would have three years fully guaranteed or no? I think I would go three years guaranteed, then make it very team friendly in the last year. I can get out of it.

Yeah, I'll give you the guarantees, but what do I get at the end if you fall apart? If I'm taking the big risk, looking at your injury history, which is bad the last two years, what do I get if you can't stay on the field? I have to win too. Any contract negotiation, you can win as the player. How do I win as the... When I negotiate with Fox, they got a win and I got to win. We both have to feel like we won.

Isn't the win for Baltimore that we're only giving you three years? I mean, he's an NFL MVP. I know it's going to sound bad. If he hits the market, Lamar is going to have suitors. Now, he doesn't right now because of this... A lot of it has to do with the lack of agent. But anyways, I don't want to go down that road. Let's move on to another quarterback in the AFC.

He put up massive numbers in the first half of the season before the concussions kicked in, missed the final four regular season games in the playoff L. But he's very excited for 2023. Offseason training has been good. I've been working on strength in many areas and been chipping away at things that I felt like I needed to work on to get to where I feel like I can get to in the later parts of the season. I'm very excited. I think our entire team is excited to get back out there, get to meet a lot of the newer guys.

A lot of the newer guys getting to meet, you know, the guys that have been, you know, in this system for a whole year now. So it's very exciting. And I think a lot of the fans, the community, you know, everyone is very supportive. Yeah, we'll see. Every quarterback in the NFL is very excited. Colin, I will say seeing him with a mustache. I've never been a mustache guy.

Usually, I looked at the pictures. Usually he has kind of a beard going. Yeah. He looks a little more mature. Is it just me seeing that or no? Well, he gets older. You know, you will eventually mature too. It just takes time.

Eventually, yes, yes. When I shave and I will. I think, too, we all know the truth. The media just doesn't want to say the truth. Is that everybody likes to him. Yeah. And we all have one overwhelming concern, concussion. Concussion's not shoulder.

It's not knee. Concussion is one more and maybe you shouldn't play. So do you believe he can go the next two years without a single concussion? I do not. And if he gets one, here comes the avalanche. And let's not forget what happened in Alabama. He had that bad hip injury. You know, these small quarterbacks getting a ragged.

Well, you know, the same week, Bryce Young, number one overall. Good luck. Yeah. Final story is NBA. Now this, I don't know what to believe about this, Colin. So, Trey Young, you know, I'm a fan of the Hawks. I was wrong about them this year. Their ownership has reportedly given the front office the green light to make major roster changes, which includes a potential trade of Tray Young.

He has been the centerpiece since he was drafted in 2018. Hawks are the 8C. They play the heat tonight in the play in. Now, this is interesting that in the same week that there was Luca could ask for a trade, Trey Young, they could trade him if they want. Both were drafted in 2018. Both already made the conference finals. neither plays a lick of defense.

Let me give you a series of players, and what do they all have in common? Kyrie Irving, John Wall, Westbrook, Derek Rose, John Morant, Tray Young, hyper offensive players, small guys in the league, you can't build around them to win championships. They're all John Wall, Russell Westbrook. You don't think you can win a title with Tray Young? No. Wow.

I mean, they got to the conference finals. In the awful east, tiny, tiny player. If memory serves, they beat the mighty Joel Embed in game seven in Philly. I know Ben Simmons, blah, blah, blah. They've never won a second playoff series. Your standard is Philadelphia? How about Boston or Milwaukee? People love Philly.

So you're saying, wow, you're out of Trey Young. If Trey Young's your best player, you're not a championship team. Well, now that's different. You can win it with him maybe as your second best player. Okay, but he wants to be the man. He'll take more shots than anybody. He won't defend. small athlete. I can like somebody. It's John Wall. It's Derek Rose. We fall in love with dynamic

little guys who can score. Steph Curry, the greatest shooter in the history of the game, who has unbelievable self-awareness, a brilliant staff and a roster built to protect his defensive liabilities is different. But if you look, we do this all the time. We fall in love. Steve Nash won a couple of MVP's. We fall in love with dynamic point guards with absolute deficiencies in terms of postseason basketball is more physical. You're going to get pushed around. You're not going to get the whistle. Tray Young's had a neat playoff run.

Nobody had a ton of film. You didn't know what he was. The East was weak. They went to New York. The Knicks are always overrated. Everybody falls in love with him. Hard to coach. Doesn't play defense, small guy.

I let you bang on Luca yesterday. I'm not going to let you hammer Tray Young today. So I just want to remind folks, Steph Curry came to the Warriors, who was with Monta Ellis. Oh, you can't win with these two guys. guys, they say, forget Monta Ellis. Well, I don't know. Curry's so tiny.

I don't know if you can win with him. They built arguably the greatest dynasty in NBA history around Steph Curry, a small point guard. Yes. Why can't the Hawks mold something similar around Trey Young? I'm not saying what they have now is there. Trey is not. He's Steph Curry light.

Is he not? Steph is in terms of self-awareness, coachability, being a teammate, getting along with others. Steph Curry literally said, hey, Kevin. Durant come in, you can be the star. You think he's, Steph's, you think... That is a great point. Well, Tray Young is what? Is he 24, 25? He's a young guy. He played one year of college. Can we stop comparing anybody to Steph Curry? He was a Steph Curry light. You wouldn't give him that? A homeless man, Steph Curry? A poor man, Steph Curry, you won't go there?

No. No. Damn. That's harsh. Tray Young is a really good... Now, I know he didn't have a great year. Like you, he's a gunner who shoots too much and falls in love with stats. But in the end, you got win games you got to elevate others Steph Curry also has the greatest defensive player in 15 years maybe ever in Draymond Green

one of the smartest guys in league history and Steve Kerr and Bob Myers great ownership willing to spend way over the cap you know as much as I love the Warriors it is a slight advantage that the owner doesn't care about the cap you know who you also sound like

Mark Cuban when they were like Ah Jalen Brunston small pointer I don't know we don't want to pay him Jalen Brunson Ah we're not going to pay him by the way Wait a minute oh no we want to pay Jalen Brunson. Now he's gone.

Jalen Brunson to the Knicks, they may not win a playoff game. Do you understand that? Raleh hurt, but Brunson was awesome. And I don't know if you can make him your number two on a title team. You're not going to win a championship with Jalen Brunson being your best player. No, no, no, no. Second best player. Self-awareness is key.

And Brunson and Cury both have dads who played in the NBA. Trey Young doesn't have that. Jailen Brunson. See, this would be this opinion won't fly with anybody. I'd take Jalen Brunson over Tray Young. leadership, toughness. That's spicy. No, I think Jalen Brunson's a great player.

I would take him over Kyrie Irving, no doubt. Well, that's not even a question. Right, but Tray Young, huh? I'll let that marinate. You go watch these playoffs. I like Brunson a lot, man. Brunson's a great player. No, Brunson can be your two.

Self-awareness is key. That's a good. Julius Randall can be your three or your four. Brunson can be your two. You give Brunson. Like, if you, I'll just throw this out there. It's not going to happen. But if you went like Durant, Brunson, Randle.

Or thereabouts. That's a championship level team. Carl Anthony Towns, Brunson Randall. That's a very good basketball team. Now, Carl Anthony Towns is a little kooky for me. He's going to go. We'll see what happens tonight. Carl Anthony Towns, Jalen Brunson, Randall.

You can win a couple playoffs series with that. Talk to me, Nix fans. Let's make it happen, baby. Now, Carl's a little, he gets a little out there, a little emotional, but he's a man. He can hoop. Oh, no, no. He's going to give you his points and boards.

I like Carl Anthony Town. Don't love him, but I like him a lot. There we go. J-Mack with the news. Well, that's the news. And thanks for stopping by. The herd lie news. Am I wrong on that?

If I put up a poll, I don't think Twitter lets you do that anymore. I consider everything. Coachability, toughness, defensive end. I take Jalen Brunson over Trey Young. Knowing Trey is that lethal deep shooter, but I think Trey's a lot to deal with, I don't dislike him. But Brunson gives me a lot of intangibles,

leadership that I really like. Jalen Brunson had a remarkable year. And I watched maybe six Nick games. I mean, I don't sit and watch the Knicks every night. But when you watch them, like, that guy can run, he can run a team. There is something to their dad, Curry and Brunson's that played in the NBA. They kind of know what locker. They've been around basketball forever.

I'm not saying Trey Young doesn't have that. But I think I had not considered that as much. Just lack of self-awareness with Young. I mean, he's already had, I think, two coaches fired in Illinois. and, you know, we don't see Curry rubbing guys out. We don't see... Oh, so Quinn Snyder just got the job in Atlanta, right? Yes.

All of a sudden there's rumor Trey Young is out. Don't you think Quinn Snyder's probably got a say in that? Can I tell you? I bet the Hawks tonight against the heat. I think this is going to be a great game tonight. I know nobody's talking about it because the Lakers are playing, but I like the hosk. And Jimmy Butler, against my better judgment, yes.

What's the line on that? It's five. I took the points. Oh, I would take the points, too. Miami wins, but I'd take the five points. I would take Atlanta plus the five. I'm pot committed to Atlanta this year. They got a lot of shooters, way better team than last year that they had.

Bogdanovich. Tell me you're not excited about the games tonight. Oh, yeah. Last night I watched the big short because I had nothing to do last night. Steve Corel is amazing in that. The whole movie I saw, by the way, Babylon on the airplane. Have you seen Babylon? It doesn't interest me.

Brad Pitt and what's her name? If Margo Robbie? If Margo Robbie's in a movie, I'm seeing it. Was it good? I thought it was good. It got a little dark. Probably too dark for you. I liked it. I like wholesome. And you're watching it on a plane and it's like there's some sketchy scenes and you're like looking around. Jeez.

That's how I felt with the masters. You had those live golfers. You had some sketchy scenes, but I still watched. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern 9 a.m. Pacific. What do you get when you combine a three-time manager of the year at a three-time. time national sports writer of the year. It's the Book of Joe podcast. Hey, this is Tom Verducci from Fox Sports, MLB Network and Sports Illustrated. And I'm Joe Madden. And we're going to be around to talk a little bit about managerial decisions, playoff games, and what may have occurred into the dugout,

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Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way,

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And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont. Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now.

Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. to look back at it on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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So I thought this story was interesting. Zion Williamson, who we mostly all love when he came into the league, reportedly not even close to a return for the Pelicans, his conditioning is just not there. So Zion's just unique. First of all, he's wilt when he's healthy.

He's just never healthy. His game and his story are fascinating. Most busts just can't play. Zion's incredible. 26 points a game, shoots 60% from the field. But as every single executive in the NBA I talked to and every scout said, he plays with such violence and such torque,

they don't think his body can last. I remember having lunch with Darry, Philadelphia. He loved him. And he said, man, do I worry about that body? I've never seen anybody play with that much torque. And so he's played, I mean, about 30 games a year. It's kind of what you get. And so do I feel bad for the Pelicans? Well, they took a big swing in the draft and they needed to. And they took a big swing in an extension. And they kind of needed to because New Orleans is not a big free agent market. They got a draft. They got to develop and they got to hold on to their guys before they leave. So I defend what they did. And I also think this happens a lot more than you think. Years

ago, I was at the Espies. It's that event ESPN has. And, you know, it was just a bunch of hockey players and baseball guys and NFL guys and soccer guys. And then Amari Stoddemeier at the time of the Phoenix sons or Knicks, I forget, walked down the aisle. And I thought, man, NBA guys just look different. The length, the size. My first takeaway was, where does he get a jacket? Where does he get shoes? NBA guys are different. Portland has had Zion happen four times. Bill Walton fell apart. Sam Bowie fell apart. Greg Oden fell apart. Brandon Roy fell apart. It's a long schedule. These are unique bodies, even among other pro athletes. The grind is a real thing. And I just think this stuff happens. I think Portland has had this happen four times.

Can you imagine if Greg Oden and Brandon Roy stayed healthy? Can you imagine if Bill Walton, they got one title? What if he never got hurt? This is the reality of the NBA, is that of all the bodies, you know, the NFL, I have been in meetings with NFL guys, Teddy Bruske, that if nobody told you who ever, he ever played football, you'd think he was an accountant. Most NFL guys shred weight when they get out of the league, and they look much more normal than you think. NBA guys don't shrink as they age. It's unique. It's tough on the body.

The travel's brutal. It's a more physical game than you think, and I feel terrible for them. But if you look at NBA history, AD, health, M-Bed, health, Derek Rose, health, Westbrook, John Wall. I've said this before the John Morant stuff. He is tiny, and he attacks the basket. The NBA decided we're getting rid of the hand check. These little guys can get past everybody, get to the basket, get slammed to the ground. About the only player in NBA history that was constantly on the floor that lasted was Dwayne Wade.

He was on the floor for 15 years, but he was built like an NFL running back, so he withstood all that, but he aged very, very quickly at the end. So I feel really bad, but three of the last four seasons, Zion has failed to play in 30 games. That's who he is, and that's what his body is at this point. But I would have taken a big swing, probably would have extended him. I think of your New Orleans or you're a Green Bay in the NFL. There are just places that aren't great free agent markets. You've got to draft, develop, and hold on to your guys, sometimes extend them, you know, and cross your fingers on it.

Also, it should be noted, just throw this out. I'll talk more. Top of the hour, Nick Wright, and my top five NBA predictions. It does appear that Bryce Young, the betting markets now are leaning to Bryce Young, Mel Kuiper today, Albert Breer, Peter King, their sources telling them, it's Bryce Young. So I said about a week ago, two weeks ago, I didn't buy this. CJ Stroud or Anthony Richardson stuff, I don't think you can sell off that many picks and parts and be unsure what you're getting. I think you've got to know what you're getting. And I think with Bryce Young more than any quarterback in this draft, you know what you're getting. Even his

liability, his size, you know what you're getting. Too many question marks for the rest of these guys. So that's where we are right now. Nick Wright joins us top of next hour. So tonight, J. Mack thinks Atlanta. I would take Atlanta and the points, but lose very close to Miami. I would take Minnesota and the points, but they will lose to the Lakers. I think Minnesota is going to play very hard. Go Bear is not much of an offensive threat. They already have another big. Well, Minnesota could play a five-out strategy where they have no big man, and they say Anthony Davis, who are you going to guard on the perimeter, and they just jacked threes all night, and if they, you know, hit 23-pointers or something, it's a chance Lakers go down. And

Lakers are probably coming in overconfident. Ah, they're missing all their big post players inside. We're going to dominate these guys. It's never that easy. You know that. You know you can't go in overconfident. And on paper, yes, Lakers should roll. The line's gone up from six and a half.

I saw eight and a half a couple moments ago. I'm taking the points. Yeah, I'm taking the points. Minnesota. I'm taking the points, Atlanta. Yeah. So, but, you know, you love Trey Young. Well, I don't love Trey Young. I like him.

We asked during the break. We asked the people in the control room. Jalen Brunson or Trey Young. five-year contract. overwhelmingly Jalen Brunson. The youngest guy, he likes the flashy guy. I'm not the youngest guy by a mile,

but, ah, damn it, all right, hours's over. Let's just move on. Jeez. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy,

not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman helped make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help

an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast.

From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we picky here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. Before it was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the Podcasts Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHart podcast.

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