The Herd with Colin Cowherd - The Herd - Hour 2 - Michael Jordan

Episode Date: March 28, 2023

Special in-studio guest legendary sports marketing agent Sonny Vaccaro joins the show to share stories about his career with the Jordan Brand and advocating for college players rights regarding Name, Image and LikenessSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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All right. here we go. It's hour two live in Los Angeles. Again, it's the herd, wherever you may be, and however you may be listening. Thanks for making us, as always, part of your day. A lot of choices out there. J. Mack is joining us, so I've been teasing

this interview now for about a week ever since I went and saw the air movie, JMAC. You have not seen it yet. The audience loved it, and why I loved it, because Sonny Vicaro has never gotten a movie where he got to be the center

focus. We know a lot about Phil Knight and Nike in the swoosh and Michael Jordan, but there's a story behind the story. There always is. And Sonny Vicaro, who watched the premiere last night in Westwood, is joining us live. So I want to, uh, sunny doesn't remember me as well as I remember him, but there's a reason. So when I got my first job out of college, everybody, many of you know this. It was in Las Vegas. I was 22, 23 years old. And I worked for a TV station, KVBC, the late Jim Rogers owned it. channel three. And so I was this young pesky sportscaster, a little smart alecky. I covered UNLV. Well, they were at the time exploding into a power. So Sonny Vicaro was at practices regularly, and Sonny is now joining us for our TV viewers. And I knew you were a shoe guy, but I didn't

understand the industry. I didn't know what the hell Nike was, or I knew Converse. Now, the story over the course of time, we didn't have the internet cable TV wasn't as pronounced. I just knew this guy was a shoe guy that was all over the country and the players at UNLV absolutely loved him and Tark loved him and I knew when Sunny was at the practice, he was a big deal because of the way Tark would stop practice and run over to Sunny Vicaro. So let's start with that. You had a lot of coaches that you were close to. I always felt like you and Tark, it was like brothers. The way you communicate, I honestly initially thought you were a relative. Were you in Tark close as it appeared to me? After I started my All-Star game at Dapper Dan in 1965.

Yeah. I was 24 years old at that time, me and my boyhood friend, Pat DeCesar, in Pittsburgh. It was the first All-Star game, 13 years before McDonald's even existed. You created. First one in America. Yep, you're 24. And now I'm getting going, and I had no idea what was happening in a world other than I thought this game would work and kids would play in front of an audience. At that time, about the second year in, we became.

so successful because what I had were the best players in America. There weren't a lot of camps at that time. All the guys were, you know, whatever. And that's when I started meeting college coaches for the first time in my life. I had no connection with him prior to that in my life. I just thought

I was going to, I'm going to do an all-star game. Who Came came, and I thought be local people and all that sort of stuff. They're very honest with you. Jerry Tarkhanian came with his best friend, you know, one of the boosters from Long Beach State. Yeah. He was at Long Beach them to see, you know, a couple of kids over in the thing. That's where I met him. And because

I always, you know, I had good players and Jerry would come continuously, we formed this friendship because he was so different than anybody. And at that time, as you said, there was no in and there nothing. You knew your local teams. Very few people knew who existed in basketball. The players included other than the local people. It wasn't on the, you need to get a, score right after they scored the basket and you know there's not a running thing on your telephone right so tark was the was the most different person i've ever met my life at the beginning yeah at the very beginning his personality he was everyday coach he was everyday person he always was like that kind of a blue collar regular guy he would talk to you if you were if you

had a gun in your hand you know and he was threatening to shoot him or if you had a you know something to eat you want to go get a free meal which tarc also like to do with that that time. But that's who he was. So we became good friends. And it transferred later on to, it got bigger. But the thing that changed everything was a kid named Raymond Lewis, a great legend. And they just did a documentary on Rand. Raymond was the greatest high school player I ever saw at that time. At that time, ladies and gentlemen, it was the 60s, late 60s, early 70s when his kid. Jerry was in Long Beach State. He was recruiting Raymond in the world. was and he was he came in second place because he ended up another place that they made a better

deal than tarc did at long beach state okay and on that on that day the the game i went to you know he they actually beat long beach state right ramish stream from that day on tarkin and i became inseparable because the next job he took right after that lost you and lv you and lv yeah now i i have gambled since 19th 1963 when I was a kid out of Pittsburgh. When I graduated, two friends of mine drove to Las Vegas so I can play poker at the Dune, to be very, very honest with you.

And coming from Pennsylvania, a young guy gambling was a part of our lives in poker and playing and all that sort of stuff. Was Tark and I became inseparable because I spent half the year in Las Vegas and half the year in Pittsburgh getting ready for my Dapper Dan game. I didn't really have a... I promoted the game.

I represented a couple kids like George Gervin to go to the ABA. I made, I hustled, but it was all basketball. Now I meet Tarkhanian, and we're in Las Vegas. Well, ladies and gentlemen, this error may not even realize who Jerry Tarkany was because there are a million impressions, but he was always the same man that he was at Long Beach State. And he was at junior college before he went to Long Beach State. Short-sleeved dress shirts.

But now he's at Las Vegas, Colin. Now he's there. He has the world. Las Vegas in 1970s was Sin City. It was all the mysterious things in life. All the things that everybody wanted to do, but we're afraid to do. Yeah.

Go to Las Vegas. We'll do them. Well, Tark, his backup team was the people who lived in Las Vegas and the guys who ran the town. Let's just be honest. Yeah. You wanted to go a restaurant. You wanted to do this.

You wanted to go to Caesar's Palace. You went through Tark. Well, I then knew a lot of kids. that ended up playing, started from Sidney Green and that group, that group of guys. I knew them perfect. You know, from my All-Star game, all these things. We became inseparable. I also did the home games with the thing, with Chick-Harn some.

Yeah, you became an analyst. Yeah, I, go ahead. Yeah, so the relationship with Tark is it was clearly dynamic, and that's what, where I knew you. So the movie is really, though, about the Georgia. story. Yes. So there's a moment in the movie that's fascinating where you're in a hotel room and you're trying to convince Phil Knight, Phil.

Nike at that point had $250,000. They were going to sprinkle it to a bunch of players. And you had to convince Phil Knight. The only way we can get Jordan, because we don't have Adidas money or Converse money. We got to give all our money to Jordan. So Jordan, you know, he plays at Carolina. He's kind of a wiry kid. He's obviously very talented.

And there's a moment in the movie when you're watching the film and you're saying, on the shot of his career at Carolina, the shots intended for him, not the best forward in college basketball, James Worthy. Dean Smith is choosing an 18-year-old freshman over his all-American superstar. Is there some truth in that, or is it true? Everything that Matt said was true.

Everything that we talked about was true. The one thing that happened in reality, I was at the game in person when they beat Georgetown. Yes. I was representing Nike. Georgetown, John Thompson, like Tarkanyan was for me, one of my closest friends in the world. By then, John Thompson had taken care of, you know, the top. He had, you know, Patrick Ewing, he had a great team.

It was a great game. I'm sitting there watching this game. Okay. I'm rooting for Georgetown. Sure. I don't give a damn about North Carolina or Michael Jordan or anybody else. They never thought of them. I never knew Michael Jordan.

I never met, I never met Dean Smith, and I certainly know that they wore converts all their lives. That's right. So, there was nothing. He hits the shot. Yeah. As God is my judge, what Matt was able to do on the screen, he did better than anybody could possibly do and help Sunny Vakara the rest of his life, explain what happened. I remembered that shot, that 18 seconds in my mind.

I never thought about it again. I was never asked about it again until two years later when now we're recruiting Michael. Somewhere in my subconscious that made. That was the reason I said to Nike to bet everything on it. As you watch the growth of the movie. It was your career, by the way. It was, it was. If you would have been wrong and he's a bust, the Sonny of the Caros, there's no air movie.

There's no air movie. And I don't know. I always believe that was good. And just to the audience knows, I married Pam a month before I recruited him. So I would have been successful because I had a great backup. There you go. There you go. Yes.

You go and this makes Phil very angry. Yes. You decide because Michael grew up a converse and then Detus guy. And you thought to yourself, rightly so, the only way we have a check, we got to get a meeting with Michael. So you literally traveled, even though David Falk, who I know a little bit I've interviewed, told you, don't you dare. because he represented Michael, don't you dare go and talk to the family? And you said, well, it's the only way I'm going to get him. So you traveled and you sit down with Michael Jordan's mother, who's a very strong woman as we find out.

Tell me, in the movie it's portrayed that she doesn't give you a lot of time, but she does give you a visit. How long was that meeting with Michael's mother? The meeting lasted long. It was a continuous meeting. Most of the talk and conversation with Michael's mother came after the first conversation. I didn't know Michael's mother until I had met Michael at Tony Roma's restaurant in Santomani. Okay. That's when I met him.

I then sensed that my first chance with this, I have to know the family. So on the phones, and there weren't, you know, cell phones. There weren't, you know, the phones we have today. We get everybody in a second and have video, and we know and who know what talking about. I talked to Mrs. Jordan on the phone. I arranged everything. Her and I gradually grew close together. the first scene you saw opened the door for me to know the Jordan family.

So what you saw happened. It didn't exactly happen the way it's portrayed. Right. But I went through her and at the end of the movie you'll see how it all ended. She did control it. So go. Do you remember the moment, the very moment when she called you and said, because it was, you guys were, it was literally, it changed Nike as a company. It was a running company, not a basketball.

company. Do you remember where you were sitting, where you were at, the moment you were told Michael's coming? That one's easier because, again, we were separated. She was in North Carolina. I was actually, I think Pam and I were living in California at that time, whatever. I was home, and we had then had numbers, so we did communicate. Now, I hadn't heard from her for a minute or two. You know, the last I talked to anybody representing, you know, and Phil and Phil and night about Michael was at the Olympic Games in 84 in August right here in California. We're right at the beach. And so we had talked to people because Phil at that time, in August of that year, still hadn't made his mind up until when you watch in the film at the end, he comes in and,

you know, he said, go for it. You know, we made peace. In the, in the movie, what's fascinating is Phil Knight and you, it's a respectful relationship. He knows you're good at what you do, and he's obviously a gifted man. But it does. come across in it that there was a real struggle on this. Is that true? That's just true. You can make a bet on it today. So Phil was very much Sonny. Who is this kid? Yeah.

And in reality, it went deeper because we only saw a snippet, but it was constant. My life, Rob Strausser and Peter Moore, and obviously Phil, because Phil controlled whatever we did. I mean, there was no question about that. And

that was an everyday occurrence when you saw an I didn't sleep on a couch up there, but I slept at home. It was 24th me. That was my life. Now, we have the meeting. We're involved now. By August, we're pretty damn involved.

Yeah. We got to get them there. When she says she's coming, it's a phone call. The mom of Michael, yes. And we knew that she was coming. We knew that she would be there. But it still wasn't over. There was no signed contract.

I think some people would be a little misled. Like when they said they were coming out, that's what Falk was afraid of. that she already committed. She came out because she made a commitment and she listened to what I said because she held me to the wall on what I had said. When I said, we're going to give you a peace.

I only said it because Phil and Rob allowed me to say it. I didn't make that up my own self. I knew how much money to the $500,000 eventually and the sharing of the profits. I didn't create that, just for the record.

But what I did was a messenger. I was the only one she talked to. I'm the one that promised her the money. And now I'm afraid, do you remember the last scene where I don't know what the hell Phil's going to say? And then he says, you got it? I didn't know.

I really didn't know. I was praying, but I just see. Were you in the room? In the movie, there's a scene where there's a room and it's you and it's Phil and it's Michael and they start some goofy montage. Yes. And you turned it off because it was kind of clunking. And then you gave a pitch to Michael.

Is that true? That happened, but not as deep as what the film. Matt did a great job. The words he spoke, because Matt and I, we did a 90-minute, you know, Zoom. Right. Before I even met him personally when I come down here to watch the set. No, Matt researched Sonny, you know, and his people researched Sunny. A lot, most of everything he did, we talked about.

Yeah. So in the movie, folks, there's a moment when they have Michael at Nike, They're trying to get him to sign. They're making their pitch. I won't give too much away. I want you to watch the movie. But they have a presentation, and halfway through the presentation, Sonny decides, this ain't going well.

I'm going to stop the film and sell Michael on his vision, which he is saying now is true. Again, I don't want to give too much away. It's a real moment in the movie. Now, yeah? Can I say some? Sure. I could not have possibly said that speech that Matt gave on my own.

own. It'll take an hour for me to tell these people. What Matt did with the words that he said are iconic. I wish they would print them up and keep them. The speech that the people are going to watch, there are words from Sunny Vaccar in it.

But there are also words that Matt and whatever embellished in there and sold. But we, Mrs. Jordan, did not say yes until after the speech. That is a fact. Everybody knows that. I mean, so I mean, I believe she would have, but she held us to the wall to the last minute.

She wanted everything. So there's also a moment. There was a great shoe designer downstairs in Peter Ford, where you went down into the room and said, we got this kid coming. We don't have much time. You got to create a shoe. You guys came up with a name. And it was decided, which I thought was very clever, that the NBA had a policy that you couldn't have too much red on a shoe or black. It had to be like white. And one of you, you know, one of you. you in the room decided, hey, we're going to make a shoe that's kind of illegal. They're going to find Michael, but it'll be so talked about, it'll sell the shoe, which is incredible marketing genius. Is that true? That's true, Layton Jones, and Rob Strouster did that. I remember the

day, the minute, Rob Strauster said it. That was John Bateman, a legendary Nike employee. Right. That was Bateman in the movie. And Rob turns, and we were all shocked because we had he hadn't told Phil we were doing this yet. We were going to pay the fine. And that was another $5,000. If we played 40 games, that's another $200,000. I mean. Which, by the way, the Nike budget then was a quarter million.

That's it. So you were willing to pay almost that in fines. It's a brilliant strategy that it would become the most controversial shoe with the greatest player in it. Did you know, let's go to this now. So this isn't part of the movie, but it is a question. Did you know, because your career's rest of it? on this. And we all know Michael's athletic. He's very good. How many games into Michael's career?

Sonny, did you know we made the right bet? I knew, in my mind, just for me, whoever's watching it, I swear to God Almighty, from the minute I said, give it to the kid. I didn't know this kid. I didn't know anything about him. Go back to the film that Matt's showing the public that they're going to just love the way his body his length everything but no really what i never forgot if you watch the movie michael putting his hand up when you go through the film and that's not how i i remember it but because i remember it live and in person at the game how he explained the 18 seconds it was 18 seconds of a man's life if he doesn't if he flubs the ball if he don't if they give

the james worthy and he he bullies over somebody and dunks on it they they They give it to Sam Perkins. That was a hell of a team. Yeah. I mean, my God, four of them in the NBA. Yeah. And they end up with the kid. What I saw, he wanted that shot from the 18-second mark on down because he proves it on NCAA

and a NCAA film. I mean, this was actually happened. It's film. Yeah, that was the film that happened, the 18 to 14 to 13. Michael wanted that damn thing. And the only one that could have worked, and I didn't realize it then, but they showed it in a movie last night again, I watched it, when Worthy cleared out the path. And he took the defender watching Roebuck because everybody in the world would have thought

James would have had the last shot. That's just logical. Why wouldn't he? He was one of the greatest players ever to play. So Dean Smith in that huddle said, get it to Michael. There was no question. And you can't deny it because it's on film. That's why when it's on film and Matt's explaining it in his voice, you're in capture.

You're going to walk away with it. The guy that didn't see it, the audience didn't. hadn't seen it all their lives and don't remember. They weren't born in 84. Ladies and gentlemen, that changed 18 seconds, changed the world. It did. Okay, so I'm going to ask you a series of questions. We got about three minutes.

So I'll try to answer it kind of quickly. Good. Okay. The smartest coach. If I said to you, boy, this guy, he didn't even have to be the greatest coach, but he was the smartest guy you dealt with consistently. The coach? That's impossible to ask because I never really.

cared about what the heck they did or didn't do. What I cared about is how he handled his team, how his team reacted to him personally. Who did you think as a basketball savant? Who did you think was the best coach? Well, I know the one that followed their team the most. I knew two of them. Jerry Tocanian and John Thompson. There's no question of my mind. Because if you had to go through my life, and they're all great minds out there. Much better guys at Exeteros and both of them, probably. but what they had was 12 kids that totally believed in them. And they were a different set of kids, too. Different continents, right?

The East Coast to West Coast. Controversial coaches politically also. Yeah. So I would say that because their team, their team reacted to their personality. That's a great point, Sonny. In fact, Mike Shishowski told me at a final four in Denver. He would never remember this. He wouldn't remember me.

I remember it because I was a young sportscaster. You at the game. I was at the game when you and LV blew him out. and I said, what makes them special? And he said, I've never coached against the team that plays as hard as UNLB. He said, you guys in the media think they're all flashy. All I see is defense. He goes, I've never seen a team play this hard.

And it was great about that. He said that on a podium, and Tark was in the room. And that meant so much to Tart. Oh, my God. Oh, it meant everything to Jerry. Because, you know, Jerry was, he was an outside. Yes, he was. And so Bobby Knight was an insider.

Sheeshowski was an insider. Dean Smith was an insider. Jerry was a rebel on the outside. And Shishovsky and his wife, Mickey, Shishvsky could not praise the coaching. He goes in the history of this game. I've never coached again. I can't get my guys to play that hard.

And I mean, it literally almost brought Tark. He was so proud of that. So, you know, he chewed that towel. He was nervous. Yeah, he was. He was a very nervous guy. Well, however you interpret Jerry at this time, and, you know, both of him, John and Jerry,

passed away, but they stayed that their personality the whole time in my life that I knew both them. They never gave an inch to what their belief was. John like gambling too. John, are you kidding me? He was involved in, you know, working with Michael Gronny or the slot machines and he became a very good friend of everybody in Las Vegas. I mean, he could have lived there. Did you, because you were battling shoe companies and coaches, did you ever get into tussles with coaches, fights that had ever. get animosity battles? Not animosity,

Walt Hazard and I had a problem. Walt Hazard, okay. He comes, I meet him, U.S.I.A. Yeah, Izzy's diner, okay? They weren't, they were wearing some of the shoe at UCLA, and I knew him. I mean, obviously I knew him, and so

we're going, he's coaching now, right? Yeah. Okay. So we meet at Izzy's, and he wants a contract. And, you know, and he wants what John Thompson gets. I never forget this long as I live, and he's not here, and I'm not sometimes, I said this.

And then he said, I want John I said, I can't give you, John Thompson. What do you mean? I want him and I'll bring my team. I said, you're not John Thompson. And he wasn't. And I meant that. And we remained friends for years.

But there were a few instances like that, you know, because we created money for the coaches, the shoot company, especially at that time. That they never, we, at first, I paid them more than their schools were paying them. That's right. There's no question about it. And John Thompson, what people, as a, I remember how big the Big East was. So I'm a West Coast kid. I didn't watch the Pac-12. I watched the Big East.

I didn't care about the Pac-12. So Louis Carniceka, PJ Carlisimo, Rick Bettino, John Thompson. I'm living in Westport, Washington, and I'm addicted to Big East basketball. So it was so contentious and so competitive. Did you mostly get along with, because the coaches were different person? I mean, Louis was funny, and John was intimidating. Did you get along with most of them? Every one of them.

Really? Wow. Because, first of all, I don't think they are to sign with us just for the money because eventually people start paying them all. Yeah. No, I did. And what I never was, even though everyone in the world knows that I was, there were three teams.

The Fab Five would have been another team, I'd have said, meant more to college basketball in the marketing side. Those three schools sold shoes. UNLV, Georgetown, Fab Five. Yeah. There's no question in my mind. and the irony there and allow me, we only have a minute here, they were all minority players.

Sure. And we're talking about the 70s and the 80s and the 90s. I mean, we're talking about times. There's still time. There's still problems with everybody in this world we live in. Well, you have been, you were a key figure in the Obanenna versus the NCAA case, so it should be noted for those of you who are wondering who I'm talking to at Sonny Vicaro. So the reason the NIL has passed at the grassroots,

At the very beginning, you always took care of players. So you always, and I noticed this when I was a young sportscaster, your relationship, I thought you were literally like a cousin of Jerry initially because the players treated you like family. And so can I ask one more question? Sure. What? I couldn't, I don't even know.

It's very fuzzy. Give me two more. I'll stay here all day. Okay. Okay. I got to ask you this. I always, because first I'm like, well, Tark hung around some interesting people. Yes, he did.

So I'm like, I don't know about this sunny. I didn't know. But I like everybody treated you well and Tark treated you well. And you were nice. You don't remember me. I remember you because very few people got Tark's attention. You walked into the gym. He moved over to you.

How much of what you were doing in the swag, they call it now, and the shoes was legal. I always thought the NCAA was so far behind. Could you just give kids shoes and it was, what was legal and what wasn't? At the time, there was no rules. The only rule that they had, and I would have changed, not me, if it would have allowed me, I would have paid the kids that went to college. I would have paid the players, but I couldn't pay the players because I couldn't just pay them the money. So I paid the coaches to really pay the players because they gave them free shoes, free sweatsuits.

So that was the route I took. My choice would have been to give them kids to the money. That's always been my choice. And that's what Ed O'Bannon ended up being. So just to clarify what you're saying there on the early days and me personally, you know, and I went through this. I was Italian. I was from Pittsburgh.

I was supposed to be involved with the mob. I believe every Italian in the world was part of the mafia. That's the way some people in the world. And I had this affinity and love that I never denied for Las Vegas. I told you the first thing I said, I wanted to go to Las Vegas when I was 23 years old to play poker at the dunes. That was a dream of mine when I was 23 years old, and I did. We drove. So I'm saying to you, there's so much bias in the operation and the organization called the NCAA.

And the bias is they do not help the individuals that made them billionaires, that made them, everybody around them is wealthy, except until recently, O'Bannon and Alston and all the ones that we're now winning in court. That's why I think you and Tart got along. Jerry Tarkening has my favorite college basketball quote of all time. Okay. He said the NCAA was so mad at Kentucky. They put Cleveland State on probation.

And he said it, and you know he said it. And that's basically, as funny as that is, that was the truth. You never heard of, you know, a lot of schools in Kiddowling UCLA. I mean, all the years and whatever, you know, nothing. I'm not saying something did happen, but there would be no, you've never seen that type of school, the one was given anointment forever. That doesn't mean that they did something. What I'm saying to you is, but they never even were mentioned as doing something.

But Tarkin was investigated when he got up every morning. There was no question about it. No question about it. Yeah, Jerry once at a podium, I used to do a weekly presser on Wednesdays. One time he stood up there and somebody asked him about recruiting. He goes, all I hear is coaches complaining about recruiting. He goes, I get on a plane, I sit in first class, I go to a hotel, I get a steak dinner and a free beer and watch basketball, and then fly back home first class.

He goes, that's every guy's dream. All these coaches complain about recruiting. I love recruiting. Sonny Vicaro, sports marketing agent, most notably at Nike, founder of ABCD Camp at the high school basketball showcase and a key figure in Aaron movie played by Matt Damon and the O'Bannon, Ed O'Bannon v. NCAA case. Ed's a wonderful guy. I've never met him, but his story is redeemable beyond that.

What a pleasure for me. Thank you so much for your patience. and my rapid fire question. I enjoy it, and Mick Cronin told me to make sure that he tells you, I tell you hello for him. He watches you all the time, and he was our guest. He and Eddie O'Bannon were Pam and I's guests at the last night. He's done a great job at UCLA.

And he's a great young man. I've known Mick since he was 20 years old. He was, you just got graduated. He was an assistant high school coach. He brought a kid to playing a round ball classic in Pittsburgh, and I've known him since then, from that day. I didn't know if he was going to work, but man, that team plays hard. And if they had not fallen apart physically, they had a chance to get to the final four.

I would have liked their chance, especially both the kids, single than the other kid. But that happens. That's part of the game and whatever. Sonny, great seeing you. I hope we can do this again someday at some, whatever. I enjoyed it, and it was a pleasure being on. And I love talking. I love talking about basketball.

But the most important thing I love talking about is the free. that the athlete now has. I think the best thing I ever did in my life other than Mary Pam was help find a plaintiff for the law lawyers to do the O'Dobannon case. Because now it's confusing out there.

Now, they made a big mistake the NCA. They should have made a deal with these kids a long time ago. Right now, right now, I hope I'm alive but I predict on your show in five years there will not

be an organization like the NCAA. They may be a name out there. They will not be running the athletes anymore. There has to be a decision, whether it's the politicians. I vote for an independent person who is respected, like a Ken Feinberg who did, you know, separated all the money and all the disasters, 9-11 and everything else. A man like that should be able to put together a group to represent the players and the universities and the kids should share the wealth.

stuff. Amen. Back in a second, Sunny Vicaral, live in Los Angeles, The Hurt. Want more HARD? The HARD streams 24 hours a day, seven days a week, within the I-Hard Radio app. Search HARD to listen live or on demand whenever you'd like. Imagine an Olympics where doping

is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games, and with the athletes, for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw,

unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast.

It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far far away, such as the biology of taun tons and wampas on the ice planet hot,

or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to thank Sunny Vaccaro for stopping by. Check out the movie, Air Movie, Nike, Sunny Vacero, Phil Knight, Michael Jordan, his mother, all mixed in. Great storytelling. Jay Mack with the news. No, no, no, no, no.

Turn on the news. This is the herd line news. As a college basketball junkie, I just love that stuff. We could talk college hoops from 80s and 90s for a long long time. The Big East, when UNLV was rolling, and the Big East was rolling, and Carolina and Duke were rolling,

and I don't know, you know, 25 years ago, college basketball on a lot of nights felt significantly bigger than the NBA in the regular season and March. Late 80s and 90s. Oh, it was gigantic stories everywhere. And Tark was the ultimate outsider and rebel. Yeah.

All right, let's go to the NFL. So Packers Jets, some clarity on this trade. According to Charles Robinson at Yahoo, the deal is close. Aaron Rogers would go to the Jets, obviously, and the Packers would get two high draft picks a second this year and a second next year. The sticking point is whether it would include give back protection for the Jets if

Rogers does not play beyond next season. Now, you know, he goes into the darkness retreat and 90% retired. I mean, there's a chance he just suits up for the Jets for one year. Packers are like, hey, that's not our problem if he doesn't come back for a year two. Here's Packers' GM Brian Gutikunst at the owner's meeting talking about pick compensation. Is there any scenario that you'd be comfortable making a trade without getting a first round pick back? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, that's not a necessity, but at the same time, you know,

the value of the players is a premier player, you know, so I think getting premier picks back for that is, or players is important. So if you're the Jets, you say, listen, if Rogers plays one year, that pick next year ain't gonna be a second round pick. It's gonna fall to like a fifth or something, right? You can't be give them a pick next year if you don't only plays for one year. Yeah, can. quarterback, we don't.

I don't want to go down that road again. I mean, we just disagree. Like, the Jacksonville? You're going to say Aaron Rogers for just one second round pick? You're getting him for one season. Maybe. I'm protecting myself if I'm the Packers from looking foolish if he plays for four years in New York.

Aaron Rogers played for four years. He's talked about retirement for the last two or three years. This guy wants to go do ayahuasca before doing awesome. You said you would agree to a second round or this. year and if he plays two years, you'd give up a first. I would, but he has to play that second year. Okay. All right. So that's probably what they're, you know, they're basically, it sounds like the teams have agreed on a second round pick this draft. Green Bay gets a second rounder. The question is, what do you do? Green Bay is saying, we don't give a rip if he plays. That's your problem.

We want another great pick the following draft. The Jets are saying, what if he retires? So I think Green Bay, I would be stubborn. That's your problem, not mine. He's your employee. You would be stubborn? I don't think he was a stubborn kind of guy. Well, I know, but I mean, he's your employee. You manage him. We did it for years. That's why we're moving on. If he doesn't play, you can deal with it. But we're not going to look foolish if he plays for two years, maybe three, and we gave away one pick. We have to protect our franchise and our fans too. And this kind of comes back to what we're seeing with Stafford and what we're seeing with, what's the other trade where there's a top of Russell. In Seattle, Seattle has a top six pick

Detroit has a top six pick because of the Stafford injury, and Russell Wilson was bad. The Jets don't want that egg on their face, giving away the Packers a pick if Rogers is hurt or doesn't play. I think that's a big part in it. Jets are being smart here. Next story, the Colts obviously need a quarterback next season. They've been mentioned by many, including our show for a couple weeks now, about landing Lamar Jackson. Here's what Chris Ballard and owner Jim Ursay had to say about that. Anytime a special player is available, which he is, you've got to do the world. work. I'm not going to get into deep discussions on where it's at or what we're doing or what we

might do. You never know how any of this will work out. Ursay then chimed in, it really has nothing to do with actual dollars. The issue is what's the right thing to do for the franchise in terms of what helps us win in the long run. As an owner, I do not believe in fully guaranteed contracts. I think that a percentage is one thing. From what I've seen from the NBA and baseball, I don't see as a positive competitively. Well, he's not wrong. There's a lot of teams that get burned in these guaranteed contract. NFL is the one sport. You don't get locked into a bad contract. You can move off them within a year. So do a three-year guarantee fully guaranteed? No. I'll give you, a two-year guaranteed, a third year, significantly less guaranteed. By the way, a franchise is

guaranteed. So Baltimore's clearly willing to give one-year guarantee. One year, get out of here. If Baltimore could give, I think, if I was, Lamar and you gave me two years guaranteed, two more after that, but not guaranteed. That's reasonable from both sides. That feels fair to me. I'm not giving you four years guaranteed. No, no, not four. I'll give me three. Three years fully guaranteed. It's a lot. It's a lot. I'll give you two. Okay, you know what? You can go back to Life Post Andrew Luck and Peyton Peyton Manning. You remember what that was like? Awful. Boy, that's lost in the wilderness. Spice. Jim Ursay. Who you cycle? Who you cycle? Do you? Jacoby Brissette? Matt Ryan? Did they trot out

Sam Ellinger last year? Well, no, Jacoby Brissette's in Washington. Give me some other stiff. No, no, Jacoby percent a couple years ago in India. I'm talking about like the last five years, once Andrew Luck left. Cycle through all the stiffs they've had back there in quarterback. You want that? Give me fully guaranteed just three years. That's not that much. And then I'm Lamar.

I get to go get another bite of the apple when I'm 29. All right. You enjoy those. Nick Foles? Was he a starter life? Enjoy it, Ursay. Final story. This is a bummer, Colin.

So Paul George is rehabbing that knee sprain that he suffered. No official timetable. his return. But Shams Sharania of Stadium, Yahoo, all these, he worked for a bunch of people. He said the Clippers believe they'll have to get out of the first round of the playoffs to get Paul George back this season. Colin? I mean, listen, I don't want to shut the door on the Clipper season, but if you don't have

Paul George in that first round series and you got to face the Phoenix Suns, you ain't win in that series. So, Paul George, not back until you get to the second round, maybe? Clippers are done. Paper clips, it's over. Well, this year, because of the KD injury and the Wiggins absence, is that the Warriors and Sons, who are probably, arguably the first two teams, are going to be seated somewhere in the middle. So unfortunately, the first round of the Western Conference playoffs this year could be your hardest opponent. You could get Sacramento that plays not a lick of defense in the second, but in the West this year, your toughest opponent could be your first opponent if you're a four, five, or six-seat. So if Kevin Durant returns to the Sons,

it's Kady, D.D., DeBook, Aiton, Chris Paul. Are they sweeping Kauai Leonard and the clippers? No, but they're winning it. Sweeps hard. Man, Steve Ballmer's going to be ticked off. They're billionaire just dropping money. None of it's working. Jay Mack with the news. Well, that's the news. And thanks for stopping This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Start your journey of self-d discovery, convenient, affordable online therapy. Go to BetterHelp.com slash herd, H-E-R-D. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the I-Hard Radio app.

Hi, this is Jay Glazer, and you may know me for the world of football or fighting or even shows like HBO's ballers. What you don't know is for my entire life, I have lived in something I refer to as the gray. Depression, anxiety. So now I'm coming out with a new podcast. Unbreakable, a mental health podcast with Jay Glazer, where each week, while we talk about mental health, I hope to describe it. Give it words. Listen to Unbreakable with Jay Glazer on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'll say. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes

of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast.

Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of taun tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your point.

podcast. Well, Tristan Thompson, a friend of LeBron, recently went on Draymond Green's podcast exclusively at the volume, and said, you know what the Lakers and LeBron need? They need to reunite LeBron and Kyrie Irving. I've been pushing that reuniting, you know, coming together for so long. Because I saw the, what, Kyrie and LeBron is. It was almost like a matchman. They brought the best out of each other. It's not over yet. You know, like, there's still a couple more chapters between them, too,

that they can make some magic happens. So my takeaway is it's the NBA. Five years after a player is done, Ben Simmons, somebody will make a run at him. Westbrook, the Clippers made a run at him. I understood Dallas making a run at Kyrie. But I wonder from the Laker side, are they going to get out of the appease LeBron business and really into that,

let's build a roster for the future business? Because the last two years, here's how it's ended for the Lakers and LeBron. Miss the playoffs and out in the first round. And as of this morning, both of those are leaders in the clubhouse, missing it or out quickly. And so I've said, I think they have to showcase Anthony Davis, move him after the season, cross your fingers on his health. but LeBron's only given you, right now he's giving you about 52 to 53 games a year.

That is the trajectory. So, you know, there was a 12 to 13 year period, maybe even longer, when making LeBron happy and building a roster around LeBron was what you did. You gave up draft picks. You go to Cleveland. You give up Andrew Wiggins' pick. You get guys who LeBron likes. Bigs who can shoot jumpers, defend the rim.

you get veteran players who can shoot. LeBron can get the ball to. LeBron controls the basketball surrounded with shooters and bigs who can shoot and clear the way so they don't clog up the lane so LeBron can finish at the 10. But those days to me are gone because you don't get the payoff on the upside. So I think it sounds good and somebody will make a run on Kyrie. It's not working in Dallas, obviously. But I think this point forward, and this happened about a year.

or two ago. You got to move out of the placate LeBron into, let's build a roster for the future. I just don't think at 52 games, you're not getting the payoff at the end. I'm not giving, I'm not giving up my future for LeBron. But for 13 years, it made absolute sense to do that. Okay. End of your first year, discover credit cards, automatically double all the cash back you've earned. Everything you earned, double. How good is that? Check it out for yourself. Discover.com slash match. We have flown through the first two hours of our show. Thanks again to Sunny Vaccaro.

Joel Clatt, final hour. Live in Los Angeles. Sunny today, it's the herd. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away,

such as the biology of taun tons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me.

Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard,

but celebrating. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.