The Herd with Colin Cowherd - The Herd - Hour 2 - NBA Poll

Episode Date: April 19, 2023

Most want to build around Giannis Antetokounmpo Trae Young was voted the most overrated player in the NBA   Guest: Sam AmickSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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J. Mack is very upset that a poll of 54 NBA players, a tenth of the league, that Tre Young's the most overrated player. And my argument is I've been in this ratings business, radio and TV forever, and you only take about, in Los Angeles, 200 people, in a county of 10 million people, 200 people determine all the radio ratings. And it's very reasonable. When they expand it, it comes out to the same number. People don't think that's true, but it is how ratings work. There's probably a term for it, but you take a very small sample size, and it becomes what a larger sample size would. be. I can't explain the psychology of it, but that's the way it works. I'll take your word for it on that. I'm not devastated that Tray Young's getting bashed. I just, I would significantly push back. Who would you say is the most overrated player? Most overrated players. So somebody that everybody loves

a lot, but isn't like a winning player. Kyrie Irving, most overrated player. Well, he's polarizing. I don't think everybody loves. Everywhere he goes, you're supposed to win, and he ends up nuking the team from the inside. But I think Kyrie and Westbrook and Harden at this point have a lot of people that push back. Does salary come into account? Well, yeah, sure. I mean, if somebody clogs up salary? What about not showing up and just going AWOL?

Does that matter? I mean, I would say Rudy Gobert, to me, he's got to be way up there. You mean the three-time defensive player of the year? That's more times than Draymond's won the award? They traded nine guys for him. Picks and players, nine? It wasn't a great deal. LeBron wouldn't get six.

He got nine. Draymond also doesn't have three defensive player of the year awards. Rudy Gobert has three of them. By the way, the Knicks got whacked last night. The Knicks have one way to play. They have to play hard. They have to be relentless. They have to hustle.

If they bring in low energy, they have such a low ceiling. They're going to get blown out. And last night early, Cleveland, playing desperate, brought in energy, and they have more good players. So I think Knicks basketball is a lot like Texas football, the Longhorns. We want them to succeed. because it makes the sport feel bigger. And the NBA feels bigger when the Knicks win. But they're like an NFL team that wins with defense.

They cannot win shootouts. There's only one way for a defensive team to win. They've got to push around and be physical, very much Tennessee Titan football. And the Knicks came in last night. They did not have great energy. And they get humiliated fast. Darius Garland ate them alive. The other thing, though, the Knicks will go back home.

And the Garden will be crazy. They'll play with a ton of energy. and then the series is back on. But last night, you see what the Knicks are. And both J-Mack and I thought this would be like a five-game series. The Knicks have one way to win. They have got to bring energy A-plus, energy A-plus, rebounding, A-plus, effort. They can't be sloppy.

The Sons and the Warriors can be sloppy and still win a game. The Sons and the Warriors, the Sons game one, and the Warriors game one or two, maybe both, were incredibly sloppy. The games are still very close. they can overcome all sorts of things. The Knicks don't have that gear. They just don't. They don't have enough good players.

So we want them to be good. I still think Cleveland's the better team in this series. Rebounding, though, watch the Knicks go. Game three. Find the number on that. Watch the Knicks. Teams that get humiliated and like teams that need big energy and don't bring it and get humiliated.

Tom Tibado's teams, like watch them play out of their mind here on fire at the garden in game three. And Thibodeau, by the way, his secret sauce has always been. Years ago, Mike Dunleavey told me this. I was covering him in Portland. He said, if you have one star that can get your buckets in big spots, and then a bunch of B players who play hard every night, you'll win 40 games. And that's kind of the Knicks.

Jalen Brunson's a star. Julius Randall's more of a three. But they play hard. Tom Thibodeau, and you can win 40, 45 games off one star, play hard. The travel in this league wears teams out. Teams rest a lot of players. There's load management. you can have a roster full of B guys in one star, play hard.

Knicks are a great example last several years. Like Jalen Brunson's a star. Everybody else after that, I mean, Julius Randall, come on, he's a three. He's a three on a championship team. He's not a two. Definitely not a two? Not on a championship team. If Anthony Davis was on the Knicks and it went, Jalen Brunson, Anthony Davis, Julius Randall,

he's clearly a three and that team could get to the conference finals. Could. I'm not saying this team can. Yeah, hey, I heard you say the phrase load management. You know who took a lot of load management this year and looked awesome again last night? Kawhi Leonard. So, bravo to load management. It does work.

I know you don't want to hear it during the regular season, but Kawhi Leonard looks like a different player. Looks like, I mean, they have 38 last night, kept them in the game. Load management worked, Colin. I know the fans don't want to hear it, but that's kind of the reality. Not really. The Celtics don't do a lot of load management. Well, we'll see what happens. What happened in the finals?

And watch their passing. Look at their chemistry. It's like when you play together, you actually have good chemistry. Sam Amick, senior writer, NBA the Athletic, covering the NBA for 15 years, joins us. So you ran the anonymous NBA player poll. So let's start with this. Now, first of all, JMAX freaking out, because my argument is I've been in radio forever, Sam, and you use like 1% of the audience to get a rating.

So 10% is actually a very large group. It's completely valid. it's 10% of anything is clearly enough people to have a real reasonable voice. So let's start with this. You ask the players, name the guy in the league you'd build around, and what did the players say? Troy Young was your winner. I hear you on the percentage, and I agree. The question is tricky because we had 108 players in the poll, which is a quarter of the NBA.

That question elicits a lot of hesitation. Right. Because some guys just don't feel like talking mess, even if it's anonymous. But yeah, Trey Young in terms of singular players who got the most votes was the winner. Of course, the other category got more than that. But Trey, after a tough season, obviously his contemporaries think that he's a little overrated. Now, who do the contemporaries think is the one player in the league you should build around? The building around.

I love this question, and I was looking forward to our chat about it, because MVP, Joelle M. Bede wins going away twice as many votes as Nicola Yolich. Yes. 50% of the vote. But the question of who do you build around, which is really if you get back to the basics of, you know, how do people see each of these players in terms of what they bring to the table? Janus out of the coupo wins and it's not even close. Yeah.

Now, I think Mbe's physical history comes into play. Sure. Janus's style comes into play. But Janus at age 28, obviously still. convincing everybody around the league that he's got a long runway here and then if you got to pick a guy that it should be him. So Janice, I'm looking at the poll, got 52 and a half percent of the vote. Nobody else got more than 8.5 percent. So Janus overwhelmingly is the player you'd build around. And to your point, M. B. and Yokic are battling for the MVP. And you know what? It's interesting about

this because even though there's a bunch of good players, if you, would have had the athletic around in the 60s, this is what it would have been for Russell, this is what it would have been if the athletic existed for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, this is what it was for Jordan, probably higher for Jordan, this is what it was for LeBron James in his prime, is that we think of this league as all these players. But in most of my life, Sam, there's been one guy, either, and generally he's a great offensive player, but is also excellent on the defense. end. He's mature. He's committed. In his prime, he's mostly healthy. I think Tim Duncan in his

prime was that guy. Shack, although he wasn't always focused, I think Shaq for about five years was that guy. So it's interesting when you do your poll. It didn't shock me that because I think Yonis is the answer, right? And when you do these polls, did you take younger players, older players, who got polled? I mean, anybody who was willing to cooperate. I need to give a shout out our entire staff that we have, you know, in the neighborhood of 30 basketball writers pitched in here. So you, to visualize that we've got beat writers on two-thirds of the league where they are working the locker room and looking for chances to connect with players and to see if they want to take part. So it's a little unofficial in terms of the, you know, it's a matter of who's willing to do it.

A lot of PR staffs helped out and connecting us with guys as well. But the whole staff put this thing together. And I couldn't agree with you more about that particular question and what it tells us. It's funny, selfishly, Colin, I agonized over my MVP vote like a lot of people this year. And I got to admit, the answers to that question made me feel a little bit better about my Yannis vote, because I voted for Yannis for MVP. And it was so close this year that you're looking for any sort of differentiating factors and the general idea that you wake up in the morning, thinking who's the best ball player in the world right now? And I feel like Janus comes to my mind first, and then he had an incredible season, best record, all of those things. Again, his respect level

and the association is pretty high. So was there a coach? You asked a question on which coach would you least like to play for, and who was the winner there? Mr. Tom Tibido, not a shocker. I mean, we know Tibbs' reputation. He's a grinder. He's a grinder. He's a grower. He's a groucher. To his defense, first of all, wonderful season for the Knicks, tough game last night. One of the anonymous quotes about Tibbs talked about how well he plays his guys 44 minutes at night. And that is no question. There's a lot of history of him doing that.

Right now in this season, he didn't actually grind his guys in this particular campaign like he has in the past. And I think he's done a hell of a job. But players, it's funny, a lot of hardworking players in this. league, but you see, we did this poll in 2019 and the results were the same back then. Yep. They're not looking to practice two hours a day. They're not looking to shoot around for 90 minutes and get yelled at when it's 1030 in the morning and you have a game.

That's the personality, I think, in addition to the perception of Tom Tibido and the stories that players share around the league is why you see this result. Okay, you also ask players, Michael, Jordan, or LeBron, who's the goal? goat and what were the responses? What was the final tally there? Yeah, still Michael. I was a little surprised. I got to cheat. Look at my phone real quick. A little surprise at the gap between Michael and LeBron. I don't know if you have the numbers with you, Colin, but it wasn't close. And as we know, I think over time, if you fast forward to the year 2040, 2045, these answers are going to be different, right? Who knows who's coming along, first of all?

but the fewer and fewer players who see Michael, whether it's YouTube or, you know, none of these guys saw him play in person, to have that high of a number, honestly, probably speaks to the power of his brand more than anything else. You talk about what he's done with the shoe industry. We got a movie out right now about the man. Nobody has forgot about MJ. Obviously, the NBA players have not. Yeah, he had a certain glamour. He also was very private, despite being the most recognizable athlete in America, perhaps the globe, and we're getting layers pulled back on his private life. And they're fascinating, each and every one, the documentary, the air movie. Okay, one final non-the-athletic. I read it every day almost for an hour.

They do great work. Appreciate you. You bet. One non-polling question is I said, I believe, and I supported the players in the malice in the palace, people throwing stuff at the players. I mean, they were scared. I get it. but I think it's so deeply embedded in the DNA of the league that when Draymond with Adam Silver there

was inciting the crowd and egging them on based on his resume, it wasn't just the stump. It was getting the, it was his resume. It was firing up the fans. And I thought, maybe in the Bay Area. But when you're a road player and do that, I think Adam Silver sitting there thinking, no, this is a non-starter. I think that that's in my opinion, Sam, that that malice in the palace, even today, is embedded.

That was the worst moment for the league. Am I overreacting for that? I don't think so. I appreciate you asking the question. I did go out of my way to try to make a few phone calls today to get an answer to this specific question. And what I was told from the NBA is that it didn't help. It was not a direct part of the county.

calculus and why they decided to suspend Draymond. The suspension is based on the action and then his personal history. But the thing we will never know the answer to, the what if, is if he had walked over to the bench, Ben Quiet, sat down, figured out the next play, and let the situation evolve, I don't know what the ruling would have been. I actually went over to the area where Adam Silver was sitting pregame. I didn't connect with Adam that night. I did connect with his right-hand man from the league, Mike Bass, saw where they were sitting and, you know, they had a front row seat to this whole thing. Amy Brooks, another high-ranking NBA executive was there from team marketing. The optics there were bad. And I'm with you, you know, Dremont, his fire is intensity. We know

what it means to the Warriors. I've enjoyed the hell out of his entire career. Media-wise, he's a gem for us. But when you are standing up and you're calling fans that kind of a name and they're giving you the double bird in return, all it takes like we saw in Detroit is, for one side to do one thing that likes the match. Yep. And then here we go again. And I'm with you. I do think that's part of the league psyche forever.

Yeah. Sam, great stuff. Go to the athletic anonymous poll. Janus, runaway winner. And by the way, he's, he checks the boxes in my life of the guy that would win this, like Duncan and Kareem. You know, can be got good guy, both ends, committed, focused, team about winning. That's the stuff that becomes the guy.

It's not all the awards. That's a great dad joke, too, Colin. Tell us a great dad joke. Yes, he does. Sam, good seeing you. Thank you. Appreciate you, Colin. Yeah.

So it is interesting that a lot of players did not want to answer the most overrated player. And let me defend the players on this, that Tom Thibodeau always gets least favorite coach to play for. There's 82 games. in a regular season. Do you want a two-hour shoot-around? Do you want to get barked at? That's college. Like, I don't want to get barked at either.

Like, do I have to do a two-hour... I used to do a two-hour prep for this show. Now it's about an hour. The older you get, the more efficient you get. Like, I get players saying, like, Pat Riley used to wear guys out. Then Pat Riley realized, I'm going to move upstairs. You can't... In an 82-game season, NFL's different.

You can really be tough on players. you got like eight road games. But a lot of the NBA is, Doc Rivers has always been good at this and it's why he keeps getting jobs. Joe Tori was great about this in baseball. A lot of it's managing egos and managing personalities. Joe Tori was wonderful at it. You got Jeter and A-Rod and A-Rod switching positions and it's New York City and he's in the

the Post and he's in the daily news. And you can't wear guys out in an 82 game season. The season's too long. Did you see what Tibbs did last night, Colin? He kept playing guys. They're down 20 with two minutes left. No chance of a comeback. Julius Randall's on the court has like a breakaway dunk,

hangs on the rim to try to hold himself. Let's go because the player's right under him and he lands on his back. Yep. And every Knicks fan is like, why is he on the court? It's one of those like get the quarterback out of the game. Yes. This is over. Tibido just doesn't understand that.

And that's when you grind guys into dust and it does not want. This is a crazy thing. I see this all the time. in our business and other businesses. When somebody has a flaw and it gets them fired, they don't correct the flaw. Like Tibbs is a grown man. The same complaints about him every year, wouldn't you correct it and go, you know, this doesn't curry favor with players?

Like, I am amazed. I see people that go and just keep, I see coaches that do this in all sports where they've got a personality, a defect, or a flaw, and they get fired. for it. And instead of getting therapy or kind of pulling back, it's like, this is who I am. Well, none of us are like that. You can correct anything outside of a physical limitation. Like, Tibbs, you're a grown-up. Get therapy. Like, figure out a way to manage you better. Stop barking at the players. What about an assistant coach of his stepping up and saying, you know what, we got to get Randall out of there. We're down 20. Let's live to fight game three.

Tibbs, this is what I see in. Tibbs. He just lives. And I meet people like this all the time. Well, you know, we have that. We're Capricorns. I know you've talked about it. I definitely have it. I get therapy all the time. Get out of that stuff. I might need some.

Yeah. I got the tunnel vision, you know? It's not great. Your teammates have been texting me. You shoot the ball too much. Pass. You should see our text. We're so excited for this game.

By the way, the guys watch the show. They want you to come. No, I'm busy. Also, five o'clock Sunday? Passing is your friend. Let's limit it to about five jumpers. Mid-range for you.

Don't think you're Steph. What was the last time you've played? playing a championship game? I don't know. What about a championship tennis match? Yeah, every day is a title fight for me. Every day. We should have some sort of belt right now.

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Yep, that's me. Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skisks. gets, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes,

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Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

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Turn on the news. This is the herd line news. So Josh Allen, I didn't even realize. He's entering his sixth season. He's going to be 27. He's starting to come to the realization. He's got to adjust and not run as much, Colin, so he can extend his career.

Yes. We've talked about this. You know, the JNC consulting firm, maybe Josh Allen's watching and listening here. Cam Newton, Big. Ben. I know it sounds great, but I'm getting older. You know, it's like I can't continue to do this.

I know when I'm using my youth, I feel like I can. But over the course of my career, I'm going to have to learn to adapt and change. There are some times last year where it's like I'm in the open field. I don't need an extra two yards. Get downslide and live and fight another down. And again, it's worked to this point, but I understand that there's going to be a time where it's not going to work so well. So, you know, I've always had the mindset of, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've,

I've been a football player first and a quarterback second, and at some point that's going to have to switch. When that point is, I don't know. I guess I'll let my body tell me. No, this is really what, if you go look at Lamar, if you go look at Cam Newton's career, it fell off a cliff. If you look at Big Ben, it got bad really fast. Why does Tom Brady's career, why did it end elegantly, didn't take shots?

So, I mean, it's, you notice, by the way, Aaron Rogers has been good at this. You pointed this out. Last three years, Aaron rarely leaves the pocket. He's got two collarbone injuries, like no things. And again, when you're young, you just don't even think about it, right? Like, you can be sick and you go out and hang out with your friends, but you rip up an ankle the next day you're in the gym playing. But if you go look at quarterbacks that careers go off a cliff,

even if they're 6'6-250, Cam Newton, Big Ben, this guy's got to reel it in. He takes a lot of shots. I'm not going to pin it all on him. But do you remember how many points they scored at home in the playoff lost to Cincinnati? Not many. Ten points. Ten.

That's it. So I'm not going to blame it all on Josh Allen. I really think he missed Brian Daible a lot when they lost him as offensive coordinator to the Giants. But you know it's funny. It was not close to the Sanf. I know. It's true. But everybody does realize that without Brian Daible, without Brian Daible,

Josh Allen threw for 35 touchdowns with a bad old line and no back close to Saquan Barkley and one-star receiver. With Brian Dable, Daniel Jones threw for 15 touchdown passes. It's your one. I'm just saying is that we're kind of like, oh, Josh Allen really misses Brian Dable. Josh Allen gives you 35 touchdown passes with a bad on line and one-star receiver and average backs. So, you know, I mean, I love Brian Dable, but clearly what he did with Josh Allen,

he refined him. No question. And he also got Stefan Diggs. helps to get an elite route runner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gabe Davis has turned into a... As good as Brian Daibble is, Daniel Jones had 15 touchdown passes with Brian Daibble.

Well, the receiving core... What's Buffalo's receiving core after Stefan Diggs? It's a bunch of nothing. But sometimes the improvement can be simply not screwing up, not making mistakes. And Daniel Jones was a turnover machine his first few years. He reined it in a little bit last year. I mean, he was a fumbling...

I mean, every other, like, quarter, Daniel Jones was doing something to lose the football. So the question is, if Brian Daible gets Daniel Jones 15 touchdowns. Let's say you upgrade the O line. Now Sequin's not showing up, so you may not be as good at running back. It's just... What else does Daniel Jones get?

Is he getting a receiver? Like Stefan Diggs came for Josh? What do you think he's going to go to 35 touchdowns with one receiver? He's never going to go to 35. I mean, maybe again, if he gets great protection. But they gave him a lot of money, so he's not getting great anything. I mean, I'm just saying, as much as we love Brian D. Dable. There are limitations to what Daniel Jones can do.

Yeah. And Josh Allen's going to succeed despite Brian Dable leaving. He still put, last year, he put up massive numbers. Yeah. They still lost early. All right. Joe Mixon. Oh, wow.

Joe Mixon has two years left on his four-year $48 million contract, but the Bengals are negotiating a pay cut for the running back. I thought he was toast for sure. Yeah. He had some off-field issues. The athletic reports, Mixon could be released if he won't. Well, if they are unable to agree to a lower salary. They already lost the backup P. Ryan.

I forget where he went. Yeah. But they got to figure out this mixing thing. He, uh... I like him a lot. A lot? He's as good back. Name five backs in the NFL better.

Oh, stop. No, I mean, stop. Okay, Barclay. Uh, Christian McCaffrey's better. Um... And now Christian's a great receiver. Dalvin Cook. Hold on.

No, I mean, five backs better than Joe Mixon. Bruce Hall of the Jets. He is better. He is better. Come on. I'm not even making that up. Aaron. Aaron, what's his name of the Packers running back? I like Aaron Jones a lot.

I like Delvin Cook. I like Sequin Barclay. Tony Pollard or... Tony Pollard over Joe Mixson. Joe Mixon can't catch a cold out of the back field. Stop it. Power back. Big speed.

Power back. What is this? 1987 with John Riggins or whatever? You don't think Joe Mixon's good? Well, I mean, he's above average running back, and he's a nightmare. Nightmare off the field. Well, that let's let's just. to have been...

He's had issues. You think the GM likes getting calls from the officers? Hey, we got Joe Mixon here. We got a situation. They had a couple of... According to the athletic, there was a couple of those off-field incidents this off-season. No, I'm...

He's no... What happened to you, Colin? You used to not like these headache guys. Now Draymond Greaves become a headache guy. Joe Mixon is a headache guy. No, no. I thought you wanted to get off these dudes. No, Joe Mixon is problematic.

I'm just saying in terms of talent, that's the argument we're making. he's in that somewhere between the fifth and the eighth best running back in the league. Is his talent good enough to put up with this other crap? If I had Pete Ryan still there, I'd move off. He's not there. But he's not. So said, if he was there, I'd move off him. Now they don't have him.

So you've lost all your running back production. All of them. I hate to keep saying this. But the Kansas City Chiefs drafted a running back in the seventh round, and he started the Super Bowl. Bengals, you got a bunch of draftics. Figure it out. I mean, is that too hard to say, Colin?

I don't mean to come out. You always say in the draft, figure it out. That's interesting. Zach Wilson and your left tackle. Tougher to pick two than it is seventh round. Right? A lot of wits in the top five at quarterback. Yesterday I talked to an NFL GM.

Okay. And he said it's a great tight end and a great edge rusher draft, but he said it's got the least first round talent of any draft he ever remembers. Because I told this GM, I said, I don't see the stars in this draft. And he said it is a very lean. lean, historically lean draft in terms of like elite talent. Because I told this GM, I think Jalen Carter is the best player I saw when he was dominant. And he's got red flags everywhere.

So I think it's a very average draft with a bunch of really good tight engine edge rushers. None of them great, but a bunch of really good starting tight ends in edge rusher. Did you ask Joe Douglas when you talked to him yesterday? I'm kidding. If any of these running backs, including Bejohn Robinson, are going to be as good as Breece Hall was, as a rookie for the Jets. A GM told me recently what he said about Bijon Robinson was he's clean, meaning there's nothing that scares you.

He's going to be productive, he can catch, he can run, he'll stay healthy, he's a good kid, he works hard. He said he's clean. By the way, I floated to my general manager friend about UCLA's running back. Zach Sharper day? Yeah. Likes him a lot. That's all my same.

Really? Likes him more than Joe Mixing? Moving on. Third story, John Moran, he's got that hand injury, x-rays were negative. MRI revealed an aggravation of tissue damage. Initially suffered at the end of the regular season. Game two is, in a matter of hours. By the way, got to love the 430 tip time out here in L.A.

Isn't that nice? I love it. Morant is questionable game time decision. Here's Taylor Jenkins on his star point card. He's progressing to dribbling and shooting as much as he can. As I say, he's got some pain. He's dealing with it, so it's kind of a tolerance thing. But, you know, he's got some stiffness in his hand that he's kind of slowly getting through.

but we'll see how he wakes up tomorrow. Tias has been phenomenal when he's had to step into the starting role. He'll be prepared. You know, if Jah ends up being out for tomorrow, we've been down this road before. 4.30 start, and what's the late game? Doesn't matter. That Minnesota Denver.

No, yeah. So it's basically all down to the lake. Just for the people who didn't watch yesterday, although people are watching every day, it seems. John Morant or Deeran Fox? Deeran Fox, no question. I think he, again, no drama. adult, grown up, great closer, been healthier.

I don't think that's a hot take. But I had two friends text me about it. There's some John Morant truthers out there who just think he's so fun and exciting. Flashy point guards are the same. Guys love sports cars. They're not built for bad weather or long road trips. Guys fall for it every time. Flashy wins with guys.

Does Deer and Fox qualify as flashy? Women have substance. Men tend to be into Flash and, you know. So all the things. fanboys in the NBA. You throw them a Tray Young or a John Moran or a John Wal that's super fast. They just go crazy. I want my favorite point guard outside of Magic Johnson. Well, I mean, my favorite point guard in the last 10 years has been Chris Paul. Not vertical, doesn't dunk. I mean, obviously Steph Curry's a one-of-one. But I mean, Chris Paul is what I want

my point guard. Because there's never going to be another Steph Curry. He's all time. But if you ask me, if my point guard gives me 17 a game, nine assists, plays defense, and barks at teammates. I'd be like, boom. Marks the teammates at the point that they end up hating him? Who cares? Who cares? Who gets overrated? Yeah, the other thing is, Mike Brown, I had a league source tell me this a couple days ago.

Mike Brown is not getting the credit for Deeran Fox. So Deeran Fox got into the league, made some money, was cold. He was a star, didn't play a look of defense. Look how much better Deeran Fox has been this year, actually manning guys up. He's been very grabby and touchy and physical in this series. That's not what he was four years ago. I'll never forget this. Listen, we all miss. But coming out of college, Lonzo Ball was coming out and Deer & Fox was coming out.

And they had met twice. Deer & Fox ate his lunch in high school and dominated him head to head in college. And everybody still was Lonzo. Lonsor. And I'm pretty sure I was like, guys, what are we missing on Fox? This guy's electric. And, you know, Lonzo Ball, I know he's had some knee injuries in his careers in jeopardy. But he was flashier.

Lonzo Ball had more flash. He had his dad barking behind him. Flash, Flash, Flash. It just doesn't work. Steph Curry is like the exception. Flash guys, they're not built for bad weather, man. They're not built for the playoffs. Remember I told you the Heat Spurs series where LeBron was like,

they ended up losing to the Spurs and everybody was like, oh, it's Kauai Leonard's time. LeBron's over, he's leaving the heat. It's not over for Steph Curry, but does this feel like Deere and Fox is like he's got next? He's going right at one of the seminal players in the league in the last 25 years. and he's Deerun Fox is the best player in the series so far. That's absolutely true.

It looks like he is... You don't want to go overboard, a future star in this league. Well, we saw it with Mahomes and Brady. You know, Brady beat him initially in some playoff games, but then you start watching and you're like, oh, Mahomes, it's different. The mantle's been passed. I think Deeran Fox being the next guy

is not a hot take. I don't think he's quite a top 10 player in the league. He's probably 13-ish. Well, he's got to be all NBA. But is he a top 10 player? Well, that would be the top 15 players in the league. Yeah, I think he's a top 15 player, absolutely. I don't think he's a top 10, absolutely.

I don't think it's a top 10, the king's win the title. Best player on the playoffs so far. Well, let's just say it's been better. It's only two games, but who's been better? Co-Way Leonard? He's 1-1 against the Suns. Deer in Fox is 2-0 on the Warriors. Kauai's been outstanding.

I didn't know we were doing playoff record rankings. Well, I mean, doesn't that matter? wins winning kind of thing who the best player was not the best i think you're probably right on that uh jacac with the news well that's the news and thanks for stopping by the herd line news i had uh dearen fox i think it was his rookie year i just got here to fox he sat on the couch i think we may have out a couch or something i forget yeah i think we had a couch not chairs and i remember he wore glasses i remember he walked off the set and we were all like wow that guy is buttoned up like that he's corporate. Like when D.K. Metcalf was here last week, you're like, that guy's totally focused,

totally gets it. I remember Deeran Fox walking off the set, and we were all like, man, he's only like 21 years old. It's like way mature. Didn't play a lick of defense early, but now with Mike Brown, he's pushing guys around, he's clinging to Steph Curry. It's like, now, now we've got a top 10, 12 player in the league. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the IHeart Radio app. This is Steve Covino and Rich Davis. And together we are Covino and Rich. Covino and Rich.

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Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

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on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to? do a little kill. Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill,

waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but yeah, yeah, literally. But just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS. on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence.

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All it takes is six correct picks to win, so don't miss out. So I think it's interesting. The athletic, Sam Amick was on the show earlier. He polled a bunch of players on who would you build around? What player? And it's amazing. Yonis got almost 55% of the vote. Nobody else got more than 8%.

And I think don't confuse great player with building. build around guys. It's a totally different conversation. Is that Bill Russell, mature, intellect, offense, defense, build around guy. Kareem, offense, defense, winning, build around guy. LeBron, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, build around guys. Tim Duncan, build around guys. Carmelo Anthony, talented.

John Morant, talented. A lot of guys are talented. A lot of people are talented. That's, I mean, it's, if you look at when a Disney or a Paramount or somebody builds around an actor, like, I mean, I remember when Charlie Sheen was doing two and a half men and he just went sideways. He went off the reservation. And it's like they built this massive, massive brand around him. And at the end, Charlie Sheen became unraveled. You know, hopefully he's got his stuff back together.

But it was like, it, it displaced jobs. momentum, marketing campaigns. It unraveled everything. I think they went to what. Ashton Coochard was the guy they went and got. They went and got somebody they viewed as sort of an adult. And you see it all the time. It's that I think, like I was thinking this morning, I looked at that poll.

And again, there's a different conversation, great and build around. But Janus, to me, is the number one build around guy in the league. Because of M.B.'s injuries, I would probably say Yokic is a very, and his temperament, Yokic is probably my two. Jason Tatum is way up there. Now, let's, you know, LeBron and Steph Curry, you know, those guys are older. So I'm talking about guys where I get seven years of prime. Janus would be my one.

Here's what's interesting. Has Luca moved from build around guy to just really talented, but too volatile to be a build around guy? Got three stars, can't play with him. He's now in his second coach. I'm saying, I'm asking the question I'm not making a definitive opinion because, again, anybody can get a speeding ticket. You get six or seven, we got a problem on our hands. Charlie Sheen's a partier.

Oh, now we have to go get another actor. It's unraveled. Didn't mean he was any less talented. So Janus has very much Janice, Akeem, Duncan, Kareem, Russell. It's not just that they're centers. Michael Jordan. It's not getting in trouble. LeBron James, Magic Johnson.

It's not just talent. Are you an adult? Are you committed on both ends? Alan Iverson, so, so committed. Carmelo wouldn't play defense. Wasn't fully committed to being in shape. Like Duncan and Janus are very similar to me. You don't have no drama.

Zero. Just find people that work around it. They'll confuse talent. Even in my business, there's a lot of talented people. Not a lot of people I'd build around. And I think Janice is absolutely the, let's not count KD, Stefan LeBron. They're older guys. I'm talking about guys where I get seven years of prime left.

Jason Tatum, by the way. He's one of the guys I would. I don't think Jason's a top three player, but he would be a top three buildaround guy for me because he's a grown-up. He plays defense. He can play with a teammate. He can share the ball. He plays hard every night. I think we overlook.

It's like quarterbacks in the NFL. Don't get snarky with your hat on backwards every Wednesday talking to the press. Can you be a grown-up? How many times you've got to be right on this with Mansell and James and Cam and Baker? You're running the franchise. Get along with people. It's not about being cool. It's about leading build-around.

I think Janus is in a history of the NBA, there's probably been the 10 best build-around guys ever. It started with Russell. Kareem. I think Duncan, LeBron, Magic, Michael. I think Yonis is in a very rarefied air of all-time build-around. Guys, in fact, I would say that whereas Kareem could be kind of difficult to get along with, Janus gets along with everybody. So that's very, now, now, Kareem was such a dominant score.

But both start, you know, both in Milwaukee to begin. I don't know. I just think, Luke is fascinating. Nobody doubts his talent. Two coaches, we're five years in. Two coaches, three teammates can't get along with him. All right. You're rolling, so I don't want to interrupt.

But Janus is a unicorn. League has never seen anything literally like this guy. So is Russell at the time. Tim Duncan, you mentioned Janus and Duncan. That's why that brought these guys up. Duncan is the big fundamental, the perfect big guy, bank shots, unsolved. You were wrong about Luca.

It's not that he's had three superstars and refused to work with him. Porzingis could never, ever stay healthy. He was always hurt. Jalen Brunson, worked great with Luca. They go to the conference finals. It's Mark Cuban's fault that Jalen Brunson didn't work out. Mark Cuban screwed up the negotiations twice badly.

And there's no way you can blame Luca for the Kyrie Irving disaster. They were fourth in the West when Kyrie shows up. And then the team goes in the tent because that's what Kyrie does. I didn't have an opinion. I offered a question. Luca, though now two coaches, three teammates. He is at worst, the second best young buildaround guy in the league after Yannis. At worst.

So you take Luca over Tatum. I love Jason Tatum. I think Luca elevates everyone else because he's a better passer. Tatum's a better defender. Tatum gets along, no. One of them actually plays any defense. Fair. And one guy gets along with everybody.

Tatum gets along with everybody. Okay. What about Yokic? No, no, I said I like, Yokic is, I get 23 a night, 9, 10 assists. Yokic is my top. Tatum's had a whole lot of postseason success in Boston. Conference finals, conference finals, NBA finals. see what Yokits can do in these playoffs.

He's got some guys. His guys are healthy, Jamal Murray and Michael Porter. So I would go, all I'm saying is, I always thought it was, I always thought it was Janus Luca. But after this last stuff going on with Luca,

it's like, all right, now it's kind of like Janus, Yokich. I feel nerdy defending Luca like, I mean, it's not like he even follows me on Instagram or messages me like the way Kevin Durant does.

You know, we message each other. Durant doesn't like when I criticize him, But, Luca, come on. Get with the program, dude. Figure it out in Dallas. Okay. You're blaming the owner. I'm blaming the player.

Hour three next. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel.

Help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care which I'll say it. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show.

This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with Ashton, athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me.

84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. It was a wild year. It was a wild year.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.