The Herd with Colin Cowherd - The Herd - Hour 2 - Patrick Mahomes' numbers

Episode Date: June 13, 2023

More on the NBA Finals Comparing Chiefs QB Patrick Mahomes and USC QB Caleb Williams Mahomes' numbers without Tyreek Hill   Guest: Joel KlattSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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It's the herd wherever you may be and however you may be listening. Thanks for making us part of your day. Way to go. Denver, great American sports city. Detroit and Denver are two sports cities. Too much attention is paid to the big huge markets. Denver's a big city. Detroit's a big city. They're not as big as a Chicago.

maybe a Dallas, Atlanta. Denver and Detroit love everything. And in Detroit, they like NASCAR, they like college football, they like hockey. Denver's the same one. How about this stat from last night? The Nuggets are the first team in the Western Conference to win a title not from California or Texas since 1979. California and Texas have dominated the Western Conference until the Nuggets just snuck in

the water. Well, California and Texas have a lot of times. A lot of good teams. Yes, yes. Clippers, well, they don't win anything, but Lakers, Warriors. Let me throw this at you. Spurs, rockets. I'm not saying this is true, but in a winter league, the NBA is a winter league, October, November, December, January, February, March, most of it, 80%'s winter. What is Florida have? Miami Heat are good. What does Texas have in the winter and what does California have? Mild winter weather. By the way, Kevin Durant could have gone anywhere. Mild winter weather. He went to Phoenix. He went back west. So in my

takeaway is it's easier to get free agents. It's warmer. I mean, that's why it's so weird. Like Boston doesn't get as many free agents. You have to draft. Same with Philadelphia. Same with D.C. in New York. You'd think, you know, players would want to go there. There is something to be said in a winter league that the state of Florida, Texas, California, produce a lot of good NBA basketball teams and dynasties. Players want to stay. If this network came to you and said, Colin, you can do this show from anywhere in the country you want. would you pick probably five warm weather places to consider? Or would you pick any cold weather places to do the show for?

I mean, this is, I love Chicago. So if I'd say, can I go to Chicago six months a year? I love Chicago. But I would say, by and large, again, if you're young, I'm, I'm older. But if you're 26 years old and you're in a winter league, wouldn't you rather be in Phoenix, California, Texas, Florida? I would. Yeah.

I mean, now that again, I spent a lot of time in the Pacific Northwest. It's beautiful. The winters are dreary. You're indoors, like cooped up for like five months. That's not fun. No. So this is interesting. So somebody put up, whoever did this, Yokic against the all-time great centers,

Kareem, Shaq, Malone, and Akeem. And for our radio audience, it's kind of complicated. But for our TV audience, it's not only Kareem in terms of championships, MVP's, and first-time all-N-B-A in your first eight seasons. Yokic is better than Shaq, Moses Malone, who I watched, Akeem, he's not Kareem, but Kareem, in my opinion, is easily the best center in the history of the league. But all five are very unique, and that's what's interesting about Biggs. A lot of small players can have similar games.

Bigs are all different. So Yokic is noteworthy for his passing and playmaking. Akeem was known for his footwork and defense. Shack for his power, Kareem for the Skyhook and Malone for his rebounding. Yokich, though, is easily the most diverse in terms of. of skill set. He does more things well than all those guys, including Kareem. Kareem didn't pass like that or he didn't shoot like that. Either did Shaq, Moses, or any big. Yokic may never be, he'll never be as good a two-way player as Akeem. Akeem was good, O and D. He'll never be as

memorable as Shaq. He'll never be as productive as Kareem. Kareem just played forever and on great teams with great teammates. But in terms of, I mean, here's all you need to know. Yokic could lead the league in assists. Years ago, there was a moment in Wilts Chamberlain's career when he just wanted to lead the NBA. I'm just going to lead it in like rebounding. And he just did. Yokic could lead the league in assists. I mean, he was third without actively trying to lead the NBA in assists.

So, but all these bigs tend to be different. Russell and Wilt had totally different games and personalities. M.B.D. in Yokich, totally different games in person. personalities. Shaq and Akeem. Totally different games and personalities. Yokic feels very European. Humble, no ego, good passing, high skill, played with men when he was younger, so he developed pretty quickly. But I don't see it going away. Let's bring in somebody whose greatness was also largely defined by the state of Colorado, Joel Klatt, eight weeks away from college football. Oh, man. Now, were you...

growing up in Denver. I never thought I would see this. Turn that mic on if we could. There we go. I never thought I would see the Nuggets. When a NBA champion, I mean, this was wild last night. I had, I was trying to tell my boys like, guys, this is not normal. And they're like, oh, this always happens. The abs won, you know, and I'm like, no, no, no, this doesn't always happen. Didn't the Rockies get to a World Series? They did. They got swept. Remember they had that crazy run? I think they won like 21 out of 20. games, but then had nine days off and the socks swept them.

That's right. Yeah. And so the abs of one, the Broncos have won, and now the Nuggets of one. Nuggets have had some good teams. I grew up in the Alex English, Fat Leaver, Dan Isleuil era when I was a kid and we didn't have all this cable is that you didn't know about them. All you knew is they scored 130 a night. That's right.

I remember that old McNichols Arena. That's where I used to go with my dad. My dad and my brother and I were all on a text chain last night, reminiscing about old McNichols Arena, going to watch, you know, fat Lever. all these guys. Well, I think it's funny. Yesterday, J. Mack talked about this is, it's weird. So I'm a West Coast guy that the city I've spent the least amount of time in, not because I don't love it, is Denver, because it is a different time zone. And by the way, if you want to ski, Utah's closer. So a lot for, for me, it's like I can get in. Colorado skiing is better. Well, it's very

good. I'm not going to deny that. But it was funny to watch Peyton Manning decided I'm going to live here. Russell, by the way, basically chose Denver, is that there is. There is. something about it. People don't know this who have never lived there. I would argue Denver West, it's the best sports city. They love everything. No, I absolutely agree with that. Even the Rockies who have never won a division title, ever. There's 20,000, 25,000 every single night. You know, I mean, they draw fantastic. It's a Broncos city. There's no doubt. And I'll tell you the other team that they'll get behind if they start to win, the Colorado Buffalo's. because Boulder is just 20 minutes up the road,

and that place is on fire right now for Dion. Okay, so you just interviewed Deanne. You know, there's part of me that thinks he's getting Colorado attention, which they've never had, and now he's down to like 13 players because he's disassembled it. He's not down to 13 players. That's such hyperbole. Well, that's what this show's all about.

Don't you worry a little bit about him running off three quarters with kids? No. What? No. Colorado was 1 and 11 last year and lost by an average of 29 points. 29. Like they were the worst team in the Power 5 by a wide margin. Northwestern was the closest to them, right, in terms of like really bad teams.

Northwestern was a one-win team. They lost by an average of 14. 29 to 14. He had to clean house. It's absolutely within the rules as a first year head coach at a location. You can go in and you can bring in as many, you know, first-time scholarships as you want. And he had to clean house. This is going to be a substantially better team. You go from 85 scholarships, even if he only has 60 guys on scholarship. Those 60 guys are going to be

substantially better than what they had a year ago. This team is going to look nothing like it did, and that's a good thing. And this is what he intended to do right from the get-go. I was involved to a certain extent in knowing what his plan was. And this was always the plan. he let the players know right away what the standard was and then allowed it to play out. If you weren't good enough or you didn't want to be accountable to the standard that he was setting, then you're no longer there. So a couple other things to talk about. Right now, and this was not the case three or four years ago,

it appears Michigan is now the class of the Big Ten. Man, I mean, that's true. And also, it's not just that they beat in Ohio State. they have a clear identity. It is now power, football, and by the way, you look at who they're bringing back, this is his best team. Yes. So this is what is so fascinating, is that I would classify both of the last two wins for Michigan as upsets. Even this last year?

Even this last year. I don't think that Michigan beats that Ohio State team, you know, six out of ten. I think they might beat them three or four out of ten. 10. I'm not saying it's drastically a difference, but you saw on the game against Georgia with Ohio State like the talent level is very clear. There's some things that happen in that game. I'm not taking

anything away because Michigan, they did have an identity and they beat Ohio State thoroughly. What I am trying to say, though, is that I don't think that would be the case if they did it a third time. No, they bring back all the key pieces to me. They have a team that is likely going to be

favored to win the Big Ten East is going to be ranked higher than Ohio State to start the year, and they've beat them their last two games. So your initial premise, there's not an argument. You can't push back against that. Who's the class of the Big Ten currently today? As we speak, it's Michigan. And that's even with the talent that Ohio State has accumulated over the last few years. Michigan does have the clear identity. And it's an identity, by the way, that is specifically to beat Ohio State. You know, they target them and they specifically look at them and they're like, what we do gives you,

trouble. And that's what's so fascinating about it. This year, that East Division, and this is the last year that we're going to have divisions in the Big Ten, Penn State's going to start in the top five, Ohio State's going to start in the top five, and Michigan's going to start in the top five. That is going to be an absolute great run in that division. I tend to like irascible characters. No. I like people. That doesn't seem like you at all. Brian Kelly. You love Brian Kelly. Most underrated team in the country is going to be LSU. Why did you used to take shots at Notre Dame, though? Well, first of all, they were very average for a long time.

As America's honesty broker, call him as I see him. Then they got very good with him. They did. Remember, the Manti-Tayout teams got to the national championship. Over-achieved. They didn't have any NFL guys. They'd get boxed. At the very end, I saw a match up twice with Georgia, lose both close.

They can play with anybody. It's like Michigan now. Michigan can beat anybody in the country. Not saying they would, but they could. Ohio State, for the record, outplayed Georgia and should have beaten them. So let's not make George and all that. They're great. I don't think they're a class of the sport right now.

But Brian Kelly and I, listen, the Notre Dame thing was rocky, the death of a student. It was bad. But let's be honest. He and Lincoln Riley, this was not the case our entire lives with the transfer portal. I think USC and LSU can absolutely play for a national title. Well, this year is going to be a little bit wide open. I mean, we touched a little bit on Michigan in terms of a Big Ten perspective. But let's just look at the now the national perspective of.

college football. The power teams in terms of recruiting and winning championships would be Alabama and Georgia. If you were to throw one more team in that recruits at that level, you would include Ohio State. Okay. Is that fair? Yeah, absolutely. All three of those teams are going to be breaking in new quarterbacks, all three of them. Then you've got Michigan. They've got their quarterback and he's back. You've got a team like LSU, quarterback back, USC, quarterback back. If you're looking at a year... And not just quarterbacks, like good ones.

Good ones, very good. N. Fiel Williams is a generational talent. You've got Heisman contending quarterbacks back for all three of those. Michigan's guy I see in mock drafts is a late first, early second row. Yeah, I could see that. I mean, he's a talented guy. There's no doubt about it. So now you've got that level of quarterback back.

You've got rosters that are getting better at all three locations. They will be better teams next year than they were this last season at all three of those locations. If you're looking for a year in which you're going to get a champion that is not Georgia or not Alabama or not Ohio State, this is the year that you would look towards and not Clemson. I'll throw them in there because they've kind of dominated the championship landscape to some degree as well. This is the year. And if I'm one of those coaches, if I'm Brian Kelly, Lincoln Riley, Jim Harbaugh, lean into that. Go after it.

You know, set the standard high because the fact remains is that it's a core. quarterback sport. As much as we took shots at Stets and Bennett, man, he made plays at times. He was a pretty good athlete. And so this is the moment for those teams. We saw TCU make a run, get to the national championship game. You can do it. You don't have to be Georgia and Alabama, even though Georgia's won back-to-back national championships. These teams are going to have a really good shot next year to take at the distance. By the way, you know, the Big Ten fans are very proud fans. And when USC and UCLA

announced they were going to it, you heard this. Oh, cold weather football. Well, they're only going to play four road games. Okay. And by the way, the last one will be against each other. So the last game UCLA or USC play is in warm weather in Southern California. The latest they can play

in the Big Ten is like November 17th, which by and large, mostly, it's not snowing. And generally speaking, will never be in prime time at night. You know, so you're in the daytime. in November 17th. I mean, listen, it'll be cold. I'm not going to say, I do, I do those games.

Here's the, here's the big 10 opponents. Go ahead. So I just look at these and I think to myself, it's better for USC and UCLA. I mean, USC in 2024 gets the Michigan fans, the Iowa fans, and the Wisconsin fans, all three travel incredibly well, sold out stadiums. Washington State, Oregon State, Oregon State's pretty good. They don't travel like that. So for USC and UCLA's had trouble selling tickets.

this year in 2024, they're going to get Ohio State at home. You're going to have 80,000 people at the Rose Bowl. There'll be more Ohio State fans there. But that's fine. To your point, yeah, that would be cool. It's funny when the Big Ten- Same with Nebraska, by the way. When the Big Ten schedules came out, I'm like, this is exactly why they don't.

In a very distracted L.A. market, you can sell out the USC-U-CLA game. Yeah. But now you get all these Michigan, Wisconsin, Penn State, Nebraska, Ohio State fans. it is so good for the LA schools. These are going to be national TV, 80,000. I just can't. I saw the schedules come out and I was like, God, now you see why they left. Well, yes.

I mean, that's even more so than what they lived. They had to leave. They were forced to leave. Look, the PAC 12 still doesn't have a media deal. I know. I mean, for crying out loud. So that's a totally moot point. They left.

They had to. They're in a better spot. Now you look at what is it in practice? What is it in reality? Well, you look at those schedules, that's a really good schedule. It's a good schedule for your home fans. It's a good schedule for parity within the conference, and it's a good schedule to try to compete for a playoff spot,

in particular as we move into 20, 24, and 25, where we've got the expanded playoff. I love what the Big Ten did in terms of scheduling. I like that they stayed at nine games in the conference. The SEC should absolutely do that. It's absurd that we don't play the same schedule make up across college football. but having said that, only saying that we're going to,

only fixing one game, like the rivalry game, or maybe a second for some schools, and then allowing the rest of the schedule to float year to year. I think it's going to help the Big Ten in the long run. It's going to drive more parity. Now you're going to try to have four or five really good schools to try to get into a 12-team playoff

rather than just scheduling so that one team's undefeated and goes to the BCS or into the college football playoff. So I like what they're going to, they've done from a scheduling standpoint. And if you're a fan, like as you are of these West Coast teams, the idea of going to the Rose Bowl or going to the Coliseum and seeing some of those teams come in, Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Nebraska. They travel like 1,000 fans. They're going to travel great and the atmosphere is going to be outstanding. It's going to be outstanding. And by the way, you're going to be playing in much better windows. You're

not going to be playing at 7 p.m. on the West Coast where no one can find your game. You know, what channels are on? I don't know. It's going to be on. Primetime, East Coast primetime, I'm talking about, and it's going to be on a network. It's going to be, you know, NBC's got that nighttime game now. CBS has that 3.30 game in the Big Ten. You're going to know where you're playing. It's going to be on network television. This deal for USC and UCLA is going to be really good.

It really is. I'm very excited. We're about eight weeks out. You have a college football podcast wherever you get podcasts. Now, again, a lot of people think I play favorites. I'm discouraged by that. But it is what it is. Let's pivot to USC again.

We shall. I have had now an NFL executive of note and a college coach tell me, they said, Caleb is a more refined Mahomes at this point. Yeah. No, that's absolutely correct. The Holmes, but ahead of his schedule. Well, there was questions about, I remember Mahomes wasn't even the number one overall pick. Everyone right now would be like, oh, yeah, no, no, no.

There were questions, and eyebrows raised when Andy Reid, selected him where he did. Wasn't it 14th? Am I making that up? 11, 12, something along those lines? I've told you this story before, but what was very fascinating about that draft is the draft in Philadelphia. John Gruden was still working at ESPN. He was having breakfast in the morning at the hotel. I went down to have breakfast, and he's there.

He's like, hey, Clay, come on over here. He's like, what do you think about my homes? He raises his eyebrow like this. And I'm like, I thought I had the answer. I was like, well, no one succeeded from that offense, that air raid offense. So I don't know, man. He retreats a lot. I just, I don't see it.

That's what I tell him. I said, I don't see it. What an idiot I am, right? Who's the idiot? What do you say? He said, you know, all of us who touched Favre, that's who we see. And he says, Andy's taking him tonight. And I was like, whoa.

And this was, I was like, that's crazy. And then sure enough, that's what's panned out. Well, here's the deal. Caleb Williams doesn't have those same question marks that Mahomes did. Yeah. Because the offense is more NFL in terms of what Lincoln Riley does. His production is off the charts. His ability to scramble and throw the ball down the field, to create, to do all of those things

athletically, have the arm angle and the touch and the power with his arm that only Mahomes had in college. Like, this guy has it all. This is, he's, he's the best college quarterback I've seen in a long time, maybe ever. Yeah. I know that, listen, you just said, you talked about hyperbole before. maybe ever because he is Mahomes, but a better version at this point. I thought Andrew Luck was the college quarterback I thought.

Oh, that doesn't. Remember, you could put Andrew in a box. Yeah. Now, he was mobile and powerful. He was phenomenal. And I'm not, you know, but this has like, Williams has like the best parts of Mahomes and even luck. And even like an Lway with some of that innate escapeability. that Elway had, even going back to his Stanford days, I tell you, man, like, the only thing

that's going to get in Caleb's way is Caleb. Yeah. He told me. And his mentality. And, you know, all the antics. That's the only thing that's going to get in his way. Yeah, I thought during Oregon state, he got frustrated on the sidelines. They pulled something out of him. Yeah, the fingernails against Utah, you know, things like that. Those are the things that are going to be like, stay away from that. Right. Yeah. I just sounded like you. At least I didn't talk about his backwards hat. You know what? You don't see. see it on Caleb. He's a grown-up. You don't see Gun Show, Will Levis. I don't like that nonsense. You don't? No. Levis is great. Love Lovis. It's a good kid. I'm not saying he's not a good kid.

I don't think Baker Mayfield's a bad kid. No, of course he's not. But you took shots at him. No. I had used data and my eyes to formulate a very strong opinion. I do want to tell you like that that series that I had and the interview came out this week, I talked with D.D. Dion. Big noon conversations on my podcast, Joel Clashio. The conversations are really good. So, so we had Dion this week over, you know, 30 minutes of just a great conversation with Dion. Next week, Nick Saban. We got Greg Sanky coming up all summer. Have you already done the interviews? Yes. They're already in the can. All of them in person. And Chip Kelly is on this. Ryan Day is on this. Every Monday, we're going to drop another really good overarching conversation about college football.

Big New Conversations, Joel Clat Show, check it out this summer. It's a really good series. How's Deon fitting in Boulder? Great. Here's the thing is that Deon is a refrigerator, right? He's not the glass of milk in the room. The glass of milk is going to turn into whatever temperature of the room it's in. Dion is going to turn everything around him into his temperature. He is the sun. He is the gravity. He's the magnet. This is what's so great about him. It's like, oh, they don't have a great recruiting base. No, no, no, no. Deion is the recruiting base. This is what you don't understand. Like, is it going to fit in Boulder? No, no, no. Is Boulder going to fit with Deon? Like, Dion is his own gravitational pull, which is why he's so perfect for them. They need this. Like, they need air to breathe. He makes them absolutely relevant. What do you major in at Colorado? Economics. Really? Yeah. What happened?

Just joking. No, so you were an econ major. I was an e-con, mate. econ major. Well, you're pretty good at the business thing. There we go. Yeah. And I mean, do you went to class and stuff? I mean, yeah. All right. For the most part. For the most part. It's hard to be a little different when I played, right? Like, they didn't check classes. I do remember, like, real quick story, I get done with minor league baseball. I come back. I'm 21 years old. You know, I'm a freshman. I'm 21. And they're like, what dorm would you like, do you really want a 21 year old in the dorm? They're like, good point. You can stay in an apartment. I'm like, perfect. Then they're like, okay, let's talk about study hall. And I was like, I tell you what, I'll get, if my GPA stays at 3.0, I don't have to do study hall. And they were like, deal. And so I never did it. And then I had a strict personal policy. I don't recommend this for any of you at home, but it was a personal policy. I didn't go to class on Friday. Just a personal policy. I also tended not to go on Tuesday and Thursday. So I would go and take only Monday, Wednesday, Friday classes, but then not go on Friday unless there was a test. It was good for my mental health. Listen, I am for, people talk about the four day work week.

I'm down to two. Are you? And willing to go to one. It's all negotiable to me. Oh, man, that's so good. Clatt, it is great to see you. You got me all. I'm going to get my Phil.

It's around the corner, man. Like, it's almost here. My Phil Steele books about three days away comes in the mail. That's a good one. When it arrives, I literally people go, what are you going to do for summer reading? And I'm like, have you ever heard of the author, Phil Steele? Yeah. He comes up.

with a great addition every summer. And by the way, while you're in your summer reading, you can get into your summer listening. Joel Clats show, wherever you get your podcast. Big noon conversations all summer. Summer listening is big these days. The kids, kids love it. Great seeing you, buddy.

Unbelievable to see you. One more herd. The herd streams 24 hours a day, seven days a week within the IHeard Radio app. Search Herd to listen live or on demand whenever you'd like. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes,

creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be.

Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because. of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know.

I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To gain visibility and control over your financials, e-commerce inventory, and more, take advantage, special financing from NetSuite by Oracle, no payments or interest for six months. Just go to net suite.com slash herd. Best offer in 22 years of that business, J-Mac with a news. No, no, no, no, turn on the news. This is the herd line news. The beauty of this segment is that the staff knows me so well. Players I like, teams I like, they just get these stories in.

So we're going to start with Jamal Murray. You know, a guy near and dear to my heart. I'm a huge fan. Did you see him crying last night? Yeah, I loved it. That was awesome. That was like a heartwarming moment. He battled back from the torn ACL, which he suffered in April 2021 to become an NBA champion,

but just two years. There's all these cool videos going around of after the injury, the road back. It's really heartwarming stuff. If you're like a sports fan, I don't know. Have you ever had like a significant injury? You just, you know, battle back from. I think what was great is he got hurt and he was genuinely concerned that Denver was going to bail on it. And they're like, we got your back.

Let's get better. Let's be patient. Denver's ride here has gone from interesting, good, very good, great. And a lot of this, this thing doesn't work as good as Yokic is. None of this happens without Murray. I mean, even the Aaron Gordon stuff. He was considered, you know, awesome player at Arizona. really high profile recruit.

And then a miss by Orlando. He was considered a bus. Like, ah, he can't win. He's not a number one. He goes to Denver, and he's awesome and instrumental. He's a champion. When he got into foul trouble last night, now nobody would have said this two months ago in the NBA.

But when they took him off the floor, I was like, oh, oh, Denver's in big trouble without Gordon. Did you see what happened? They put, bam, went right at Jeff Green, two possessions. They're like, whoa, whoa, we need to get D'Andre Jordan. Let's dust him off. We'll find him on the bench. Anyway, Jamal Marie talked, got a little emotional

during the trophy presentation about his journey. It's just amazing feeling. You know, I'm not sweating tears to get back to this point. Everybody, my team in here, everybody on the floor, believe me. Believe me to get back to myself. And now we proved a lot of doubt that's wrong. That's awesome. Pretty cool.

I mean, he's never been an All-Star. I don't know if there's 10 guards I would take ahead of him in the league. Well, I think his playmaking now, you and I talked about this. I don't think he's quite as athletic as Devin Booker. but now that he added the playmaking level, it's like, oh, that's a whole, people forget, Jamie, you and I talked about this last week. It used to be if you, if you average 10 assists, that was worth 20 points. But now with a three-point shot, 10 assists can be worth 23, 24 points.

And so when Murray adds that element of a playmaker, and he does get occasionally too sloppy, he's a little bit of a one-hand passer. But when he adds that element, you're like, okay, now, now, like, We talk about Jalen Brown. He's becoming a better score and a playmaker. That's a different level player in this league. Everyone on this team, Matt, like even Michael Porter Jr., remember Balli Hood, young, high school player, college. Then he had the back injury, and Denver still paid him that huge salary.

Remember the quiz yesterday? He's the highest pay player in the finals. And I had said, like, he might be undervalued here. He had a great game last night. I think he had 16.13 boards. And then that fast break where he put it between his legs. That was a huge. Oh, my.

Six foot 10, and he's doing that. That felt great for Michael Porter. Just, this Nuggest team. I found my, and I've got nothing against Miami, I found myself

really last night as a fan rooting for Denver. Also financially, I was interested in Denver. They didn't cover the spread, but, uh,

I found myself watching Ross and Peyton and Sean Pateen and all the great old nuggets. I was, and watching the fans in Denver like you could see how nervous some were crying.

I don't know what the TV rating was. I found it to be totally captivating television. And usually you and I don't necessarily root per se. I was, nothing against Miami, but Miami's got all sorts of championships. I was rooting for Denver. Last year, everybody wanted Curry to get that finals MVP.

That was like the last trophy missing, right? Everybody was happy for Janus the year before, right? Yonis is he going to leave? Winds a title, 50 points in game, whatever it was. I wonder who that team's going to be next year that everybody's rooting for. Is it going to be Joel Embed? Is it going to be wherever Damien Lillard goes? Is it going to be the Celtics, perhaps, with Tatum and Brown?

I'll say this. I don't think Boston's getting better. I can see Philadelphia, New York, Cleveland with another year, Miami, Milwaukee, all getting better. The fascinating team to me next year, Brad Stevens, a little reluctant to make big sweeping changes. You're Boston, and you watch Miami-Land Dame. Are you just bringing the fellas back? Because Miami, you can watch them and go, they just need Dan. You can see it.

If they had dame tomorrow, even against Denver, you'd be like, oh, that's a six-game, seven-game series. That's interesting. Next up, big free agent domino fell yesterday. Fred Van Vleet, remember, I like him for the Lakers. Reportedly will decline his $22.8 million player option, become an unrestricted free agent. He has not ruled out negotiating a new deal with the Raptors, but it seems like they're kind of moving on to a new era. Nick Nurse has moved on. He's going to have suitors, that's for sure.

He's very good. Listen, San Antonio Spurs are bringing on Wenbanyama. You want a culture setter, a hardworking grinder. Love that. Fred Van Fleet is a champion. I think the Spurs should explore that. By the way, Lakers should be in the mix for him. Boston?

A true facilitator of an offense? They would have to. Marcus Smart. Yeah, no, no. Yeah. Marcus Smart, Derek White, a couple of draft picks. That, to me, is the move by Boston. Van Bleets a guy, he's a facilitator.

Three-point shooter, tough, gritty. I think the Marcus Smart thing, and also Marcus Smart is a defensive guy first. You can see it in the offense. We've talked about this. Boston's offense is like the clipper sometimes. It's wing-driven. It's too free-flowing. I want a real offensive guard.

I would give up a lot. I would give you Marcus Smart, multiple picks, one of my bench guys. Chris Paul on the cheap in Phoenix or Fred Van Vleet on like a lengthier deal. Oh, Fred Van Bleet. Yeah, no, he did his prime. Reliable, yeah. Yeah. Final story, D'Andre Hopkins visiting the Patriots this week.

Mack Jones, of course, was asked about Hopkins potentially coming to New England, and he was, let's just say, very thrilled about adding D. Hoff. I think that's definitely a hypothetical, but I think D'Andre is a great player. I mean, you watch this film from, you know, college all the way through the NFL. He's done a great job, so obviously we'd love to have him, but we do have a great group of guys, and we just know that we want to win. Yeah, I think he'd be a good fit there. He'd be a good fit a lot of places.

Yeah, but I mean, New England really needs a one. It just doesn't seem like a Belichick move, does it? Yeah, but when you can't draft a position, then go get it. By the way, what do you make of Deauntlet, think, just think about this. DeAndre Hopkins is making visits, okay? Aaron Rogers sat at home and the Jets flew to him. I'm not saying Hopkins is obvious. Aaron's a superstar quarterback.

But if Hopkins, if there was a market for Hopkins, wouldn't people be beating down his door going to see him? Well, I think. He's got to go see the Titans and the Patriots? Well, they treat him very well. I'm sure they give him a first class ticket. He's probably not in comfort or economy class. I'm not saying that, but I'm just. Aaron's different.

You go to Aaron. It doesn't seem like the market is there for him the way he thought it would be. Well, I think that the one thing is, I don't, I don't, I've never. Nobody traded for him with Arizona. I've never, I think he's a playmaker. I don't think he's a burner. I don't think he's Tyree Hill. I think he's a playmaker.

The other thing is he's a little older now. The other thing is this is the one position that college football furnishes the NFL with 20 good players a year. They don't do edge rushers. There's about two good ones a year. Quarterback two, running back four. Linebacker, seven or eight. Wide receiver, minimum 15 receivers coming to the league every year and can absolutely play. You know what this smells like?

DeAndre Hopkins to the Chiefs. on a one-year incentive-laden $3 million deal or something really small like that. I don't think he's going to get a big contract. Do you? It just doesn't feel like it. Wouldn't be done? They're not paying. They're not paying.

I mean, they didn't give Ju-Ju-Mas. I mean, who's New England paying? Okay. If you're DeAndre, you go on in New England for $10 million just to throw a number out, or Kansas City for $2.5 million with incentives to go to $3. As an older receiver, I'd take the money and go with Belichick. Oh, really? A $7.5 million difference?

I would take the money. There are different times in your life. Juju Smith just did the opposite. Went to Kansas City, didn't it get paid a lot, he made more than two days. I did not like that move by New England. And then he goes to the Patriots and gets paid. So why wouldn't you go to the better team with a better quarterback, showcase your skills, and then you pick your own? I don't think it's a terrible idea.

I just, I think when you get to be an older receiver and somebody offers you 10, you take it. You got to take it. He's not a fossil here. No, no, no. I'm a huge fan. I think in New England and, Tennessee is a great fit. Is that it?

J-Mack with the news. Well, that's the news. And thanks for stopping by. The Herd Law. Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific. On Fox Sports Radio, FS1 and the IHeart Radio app. Hey, this is Tom Verducci from Fox Sports, MLB Network and Sports Illustrated. And I'm Joe Madden, and we're going to be around to talk a little bit about managerial decisions.

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Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football,

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices

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Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little kill? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Saturday on Fox, baseball's most iconic rivalry takes center stage as the Yankees battle Rafael Devers and the Red Sox or the Rays take on the Padres. Catch it all next Saturday at 7 Eastern on Fox. Check for the game in your area.

You know, I think about this all the time when I watch great players. And I can remember having this conversation with a friend like 15 years ago. The truly great players are even greater than you think. Because, I mean, think about how everybody in Peyton Manning's division when he was in Indianapolis, every GM in that division literally built a defense to stop Peyton Manning. Think how great Kobe Bryant was. You literally devised a game plan to stop Kobe. Not the other guys.

Nobody devised the game plan to stop Derek Fisher, Robert Ory, Rick Fox, good players. You devised a game plan to stop Kobe, and he still scored 34. Is that the difference between Mahomes and even Burrow and Josh Allen is like significant. And a lot of it's Andy Reid. some of it's Andy Reed, but I saw this story this morning. The Chiefs could feature the NFL's only $3 million backfield. They just don't pay anybody in the backfield. And because you have Andy Reid, who's the best play designer and probably play caller of my life,

Bill Walsh up there, Sean Payton, and then Mahalms is the most talented and intuitive player that you can just do things other people can't do. Think how good Josh Allen is. He needs a better running back. He's had competent running backs. They're not good enough. Think how good Joe Mixon is. To me, the second best quarterback in the league.

He absolutely benefited greatly from Joe Burrow. Aaron Rogers needed Aaron Jones. I thought Drew Bree's last three or four years of his career relied heavily on Alvin Kamara. Mahomes and Andy Reid, it's totally different. Just think about this. As good, everybody freaked out when Kansas City moved off Tyreek Hill. Okay. So look at Mahomes as numbers with Tyree Kill and without him.

They're better. He threw for 400 more yards, four more TDs, fewer interceptions, and a significantly higher passer rating without Tyree Kill. And so between Reed and Mahomes and Travis Kelsey, Mahomes literally without Tyreek Hill had more yards, more touchdowns, fewer. Interceptions, higher passer rating, more points a game without Tyreek Hill. Rookies, castoffs, players from the Giants, Skymore, totally different ball games. So when people talk about this, don't kid yourself.

Running backs matter to burrow Lamar Jackson, by the way, when J.K. Dobbins got hurt. They mattered to Breeze. Rogers. They just don't matter because of Andy Reed and Kelsey. They just don't matter for Kansas City. I mean, Sequin Barkley, I saw. story this morning doesn't rule out sitting out this year. Wait until you see Daniel Jones without, playoff Daniel Jones without, say, Juan Barkley.

By the way, Gino Smith, I think he led the NFL this year in passer rating, got to the playoffs, Hall of Fame level coach. What did the Seahawks do with their, I think it was their second pick or their third pick in the draft? Second round. They wouldn't got another running back. Like he needs another star running back. So this idea that running backs don't matter.

No, they don't matter to them a homes. but you see this all the time is that we don't even understand literally Miami, their entire game plan was to disrupt Yokic. He still becomes the MVP of the series. Like he's so much better than everybody else. Mahomes is so much better. Everybody in that division, I mean the Chargers, what do they do with Mahomes? They go out and get a defensive coach, try to slow him down.

The Eagles had two weeks to prepare. Can't stop him late in the game. game. So I, when I see these stories about running backs, listen, even if you have a really high-end quarterback, Lamar, Herbert, Josh Allen, Joe Burrow, running backs matter. That's why when that Jay Mack, when the Vikings move off Delvin Cook, I'm like, be very careful. Be very careful. Like, Delvin's really good. Kirk Cousins is solid. But this narrative, like, I know nobody wants to pay running backs. Take Mahomes out.

There's no question that Josh Allen, and to Buffalo's credit, they pinpointed it in the offseason. They had to get better at running back for Josh Allen and Stefan Diggs and a very good defense. They had to get better at running back. So I think the narrative's gone way too far. Running back is don't matter. They don't matter for Mahomes.

Do they matter for Justin Herbert? Absolutely. Okay. I've been doing my NFL previews a little bit. I think a running back matter to Herbert under the last coach who was running the offense under Kellyn Moore. I don't know that's the case. Kellyn Moore likes to go a little deeper.

I think Echler's probably gone from the Chargers after this season. Well, we'll see. I think they can go get Karim Hunt on the chief. By the way, he's still out there. I don't know. Joe Burrow, does he need a running back? Well, I think Mixon was now, does he today? I'm not sure.

but Mixon helped him a lot. When that O line was falling apart, Mixon got short yards. Mixon mattered. I like mixing more than you do, but I think he was crucial. All right, hour three, around the corner. Nick Wright's stopping by.

It's the herd. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman helped make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Sond.

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I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand, new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled

of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford show on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok's podcast network on TikTok.

On the Look Back at it podcast. For 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick you here unpack what went down and try to make sense of how we survived it with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.