The Herd with Colin Cowherd - THE HERD - Hour 2 - Victor Wembanyama vs. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander for MVP

Episode Date: April 17, 2026

NBA writer Kevin O’Connor joins the show to breakdown why he’s voting for Victor Wembanyama to win the MVP and why the Knicks are facing a nearly impossible challenge in the playoffs. Rachel Nichols discusses her thought process as the deadline approaches for her to submit her NBA Awards ballot.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Normally see me on First Things First Overtime from 5 to 6 Eastern. Today, 12 to 6 Eastern. It's not a big deal. Kevin O'Connor, NBA writer of Yahoo Sports. joins me in about five minutes. This is very cool, although I've got to be honest, small amount of jealousy working with Rachel Nichols. She has an actual NBA awards ballot. Hasn't filled it out yet, hasn't submitted everything. It's coming up in two hours. We're counting down. It's literally due the minute this show ends. It's unbelievable. And I'm on the fence on a couple of things. I can't wait to get fully in that with you. And Kevin O'Connor, I think he's already submitted,

but he actually has an awards ballot. So I'm just around, like, actually credible people. And then it's me. But here we go. Before KOC joins us, want to take a stab at the ones. Some of them are easy and some of them are a little bit more complicated. I would give SGA the back-to-back MVP. It is one of the greatest guard seasons in the history of the sport,

a sport that historically led more by big wings like LeBron or centers. For the best team in the league to have the best player on that team be a point guard, shooting guard hybrid, and just turn in his fourth straight 30 plus point per game season, this year the second leading score in the NBA, do it on 55% shooting, increasing basically every, you know, player efficiency rating, true shooting percentage, all of the advanced metrics say it's actually a little better this year than last year. When last year, Chet was hurt, this year Jalen Williams has been hurt, and that's not the only one. They've been one of the most injured teams in the league while being one of the youngest teams in the league.

And even with Denver, even with LeBron and Luca, even with Wembe, they got the best record yet again. And it's been because of Shea. So SGA would get my first place MVP vote. Defensive Player of the Year, if this isn't unanimous, it becomes the biggest story. Like, he honestly, Wembe is probably going to win, assuming health, and we'll see what happens with the 65 game rule. He's probably going to win 10 Defensive Player of the Year awards. It is just, the gap between him and, say, Chet Holmgren is just, it's so massive. I call them retreats, players who dribble towards the lane and then just like, eh, I'm going to retreat.

I'm going to throw it in reverse. I've changed my mind. Victor Wenam, a defensive player of the year. Cooper Flagg, I'm surprised at how much this one is being debated. Edgecombe, maybe in a different year, could get a rookie of the year vote. Khan Knapple, in most years, could get a rookie of the year vote. But Cooper Flag, in basically every year, should get your first place. rookie of the year vote. First rookie to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, and steals

since Michael Jordan, and he's 19 years old. Entered the league nine days older than LeBron James. It's one of the great rookie seasons of my entire lifetime, which brings me to first team all NBA. I would imagine four of these names will be unanimous unless someone made a mistake and submitted their ballot before Lucas exemption came in, which is always possible. GA, Yokic, Wembe, and Luca, I think are all fairly obvious and fairly self-explanatory for first-team all-NBA. I loved Rachel's explanation earlier of doing value for the MVP ballot, but the best player for first-team all-N-Ba and splitting that with Cade and Jalen Brown. I thought that's totally reasonable. The reason I would give the slight edge to Cade over Jalen Brown, I do think when you talk about

about MVP and all NBA, the winning matters. And being the one seed for the Pistons, when he is scoring and assisting and contributing to over 50 points per game and Cade's usage, and he's second in the league and assists. He just is their offense. They looked better than expected when Cade was out with the collapse long at the end of the year. But he, I would give the slight edge, because I do think the supporting cast in Boston around Jalen Brown is a little better than the supporting cast around Cade Cunningham. But that is a very, very close debate, one which we'll have our next guest, Kevin O'Connor, as he joins us now on The Herd. We'll have him weigh in on. NBA writer at Yahoo Sports. He's been voting in these things for the last decade or so since

2016, KOC. Thank you so much for joining me on the herd. We could pick it up there. How did you decide to parse Cade Cunningham and Jalen Brown now that Cade and Luca Donchich got the exemption and are eligible for the awards. Good to talk, Danny. I mean, look, I leaned Cade cutting him over that fifth spot for all NBA. He was the engine of the team. And I know Jalen Brown had a tremendous year with the Boston Celtics

rightfully on my second team. And if Luca weren't eligible, he would have been on first team. He would have been top 5 MVP. But Cade was the engine of that team on top of being an elite defensive player as well as part of a great Pistons two-way team. So I lean Cade over

Jalen Brown, but ultimately either of those guys are both deserving. Yeah, it's good that they'll both get the recognition on all NBA teams. So my guess is Shea is going to win this, and you will be in a minority. We'll see how big of a minority. As someone who voted for Victor Wenbanyama, he got a first place MVP vote from you. What was your rationale? Victor Wenyama is the best defender since Bill Russell.

I mean, you said it earlier. The difference between him and the second best defender in the league is. is massive. And so I think defense matters of this conversation as well. Yokic didn't win his first MVP until he became a good defensive player. Tim Duncan won MVP over Shaq in the early 2000s because of the defensive edge. Michael Jordan won MVP in 1988 over Magic Johnson and Larry Bird because he was also the defensive player of the year that year. So this has been a thing for decades. And then offensively, that's where people understandably argue SGA over Wemby.

SGA is very tangible what he's. he does. He is the thunder offense with what he does with the ball on his hands. Webanyama, it's things that go beyond the box score a lot of the times. He does average 25 points for game. He is a dominant score when he scores off of screens and finishes at the rim and all the stuff that you see in the highlights. But it's the rim runs. It's drawing two defenders into the paint. It's causing the spurs to lead the NBA in history in corner three pointers taken with the amount of tension that he draws on the defense opening drives for castle and harper and fox to get into the paint and make the pass that's all due to wemby so even though it might you know go back he

runs back on defense and he gets nothing on the stat sheet he's the cause for why the spurs had a 120.5 offensive rating with him on the court this year only one point behind sGA by the way at 121.5 and so i lean wemby slightly over sGA who is amazing in his own right i'm I just think with Wembe, he just shaped the court and morphed both the defense event and the offensive end. It's just we only ever talk about the defense, but he did it on offense as well. The only pushback I would give, because I think that there is no wrong first place vote here, Wemby's minutes have been managed all year. And by design, right, you want this 7-5 unicorn who started the year with an injury,

you want him healthy for the playoffs. We saw now the rib thing. We're hoping that he is going to be 100% healthy for the postseason. When you look at the minutes and SGA played nearly 400 minutes more than Wembe, I think it was 393 minutes. You divide that by the 29 minutes per game that Wembe played. It's the equivalent of 13 and a half more games played for SGA than Wembe. I have a hard time.

Everything you said is true about the defense, and I'll even concede the impact on the offensive end, even if SGA is six more points per game, three more assists per game, more like easily identifiable offensive contributions. Just the sheer volume of minutes on the court is something that would tilt me if I had a vote to SGA. I mean, Kevin Iran played 600 more minutes

than both SGA and Yokic. Katie was number two in the league in minutes. SGA was 45th. It's not like the difference is top 10 minutes for SGA to 130 minutes for Wembewitchie, was. I know it's a difference. I can see that as well. I think it's a very fair argument, but I don't think the difference is so overwhelming that I'm leaning SGA. That's not a swing factor for me. SGA played 68 games in the season. Yolkich played 65, Wemby played 65,

including the NBA Cup game. I'm not going to fault SGA for sitting 26 fourth quarters this year because O'KC was smoking everybody and part of him because of him. And I'm also not going to blame Wemby for the same thing. I think it's close in terms of the minutes, not this overwhelming factor in terms of swinging the vote one way or the other. I think it's more what's tangible with SGA on offense versus what's, you know, a little bit harder to measure with Wemby's impact on the offensive and to the floor.

And also how you weigh offense versus defense. I think those, in my opinion, are the biggest swing factors more so than the minutes or games played aspects. So I said earlier, I would give Cooper Flag my rookie of the year. I am a little surprised at how much of a debate this has been, fully conceding that Khan leading the NBA in three is made, is remarkable as a rookie. Who did you vote for for rookie of the year and why?

I voted for Cooper Flag for rookie of the year, and this was close. I mean, the last month or so, I've been flip-flopping between these two. And at the end of the day, I mean, like you said, that Khan was an unbelievable shooter this season. And I think his offensive impact beyond shooting was underrated as well. He set 738 screens this year as a guard, by far the most as a guard.

The little things he does, the cutting, the screening, the relocating. He's more than just like the standstill shooter. And Cooper had the ball in his hands a lot. And everybody was geared towards stopping him, every single opponent. I think with Rookie of the Year, Danny, like one of the things we'd never talk about is defense. And Cooper flag was significantly the better and more impactful

defender this season over Khan Knieppel with what he did as a switchable guy. We saw in the game against the Lakers in March in multiple games where he's blocking shots from behind making big plays on defense. Con is solid positionally, but Flag is a more

impactful defender. And so you talk about that, the degree of difficulty factor with the fact Cooper was the best player on his team comments the third, fourth, or fifth on the Hornets. I lean flag, but this was close. I think it's, you know, I'm not surprised. It's going to be a debate that the vote will probably be close.

But I think flag, as you said earlier, first since Jordan, the latest team and points, rebounds, assistance, steals. That says all you get it out. Yeah, it's a pretty open and shut case when you put Michael Jordan's name next to it. So James Hardin has the reputation of playoff joker. and it is earned based on his performance in elimination games. But if you look at it, he's fourth in minutes, playoff minutes since he entered the league, and he's fourth in points and fourth in threes.

He's played to his numbers in terms of his opportunity, a bunch of games with five or more threes, a bunch of games with 30 or more points. They're the second favorite in the east right behind Boston. do you give Hardin a chance to change his playoff narrative this postseason? There's no better opportunity for Hardin to do it than right now with this Cavs roster. The fact he has a partner in the backcourt by his side and Donovan Mitchell, two really good front court players and Jared Allen and Evan Mobley, a bunch of really good wings, Max Drews, Dean Wade, Sam Merrill, and all up and down the line. This is a strong Cavaliers team, and he doesn't need to have the responsibility all on his shoulders. I mean, you talk about the choke jobs, and it's true.

Like, he had them. But he was also with the Houston Rock, it's the only player to go deep into a series in the West against those Juggernaut Warriors teams. Even last year, at this stage of his career, he had a stinker in the game seven loss against Denver, but he also had 28 points in game six to push it to a game seven. So he has his highs still.

And now I think he has a better supporting cast around him where he can lean into it when he's on and focus on the playmaking and make, an impact elsewhere when he's not feeling it. So this is the opportunity for Hardham to change that conversation about him. So I think the Thunder are going to win, which would make SGA a back-to-back champion,

presumed back-to-back MVP, presumed back-to-back finals MVP. The six guys with multiple regular season MVP's and finals MVP's. It's Kareem, it's Mike, it's magic, it's Byrd, it's Duncan, it's LeBron. It's the sixth-greatest players of the last 50 years, basically. soon to be SGA, if I'm right.

Would you take the thunder or the field ahead of these playoffs? I'll take the field. I mean, like, I just think there's so many great teams in the league right now between the spurs and the nuggets in the West and then the Celtics and the Pistons in the east and we'll see who else can get there. It's so hard to go back to back. I mean, there's a reason why it hasn't happened for seven years. Obviously, there's been plenty of teams.

They are. And as we talked about in my pod a few weeks back, we can look back seven years, looking back multiple decades and there's plenty of teams who have repeated and this team is set up to do it. So I think the field is just the safer bet than trusting OECC to go all the way. But I also am picking the Thunder to win the NBA finals over the Celtics and seven in June. But I think the field is still strong if you had to ask me that question. All right. So you got, which would be great for the NBA and great for the sport.

If we got Thunder Celtics seven game series, I don't know. anyone's turning off their TV, although maybe Knicks fans would. I don't think you can fire Mike Brown if you don't make it to the finals, but I'm curious what you, so you obviously don't have them making the finals, what do you think the ramifications would be for the Knicks if they fall short of where they got last year? I mean, look, if they lose by the end of this month to the Atlanta Hawks in the first round, they have to look at everything possible to shake this roster up, trading Carl Anthony Towns using whatever picks you can find underneath between the couch seats.

You've got to find ways to make this work. I don't think the Knicks are in a position where you say, well, windows closed, let's blow it up. This is a team where you are on this path and you have no other choice. And if that includes changing the coach again after one year, do you have to look at that? I don't think that should be the solution. I think it should start with Carl Anthony Towns.

But this is a very, very difficult situation here for next. because I don't think they're good enough to win the NBA finals, and they might not even get out of the first round against Atlanta. All right. Last thing for you, KOC. My buddy Nick Wright, he upset some people with his word choice, with clown on Lamello. I think it was a little silly how people got so upset.

I'm like, so we'd have said knucklehead? Like, it was like, clownish band here, whatever. But that aside, he's been in the league six years, and two nights ago was the biggest game of his life, which means tonight is now the next biggest game of his life, and if they make it to the playoffs, those will be the biggest games of his life. And the playoffs are where you actually get to set your narrative at large

for who you are as a player in this league. What do you expect Lamello to do as the casuals come in and start taking in his game for the first time, given that this is the brightest spotlight he's ever had? Probably do more crazy stuff. I don't expect him to change overnight. I think, you know, call him whatever you want. Part of what makes him brilliant is also what caused him to have a lack of impulse control

in that situation with Bam at a bio. He is a brilliant score, an innovative score, the floater threes, some of the passes he makes that nobody else would dare to even attempt. It is part of what makes him great as a player and why he even was able to bounce back after nearly throwing the ball away and losing the game for the Hornets at home in the playing. And a game they should have won by a lot with Bam hot out there after 11 minutes.

So I think with Lamello, change is not going to happen overnight. Maturity is not going to happen overnight. But if I'm a Hornets fan, that's what I want to see is some growth, better decision-making, better feel for the game in these clutch moments. And ultimately, sometimes you know you're going to live with some of the bad stuff

when you get some brilliant stuff from Lamello as well. Kevin O'Connor, NBA awards voter, NBA writer from Yahoo Sports, host the Kevin O'Connor show as well. Thank you, Kevin. Thank you, Danny. All right, that's Kevin O'Connor, NBA awards voter. Rachel Nichols and I, at the end of the hour, go back and forth on her, still to be decided ballot. But coming up, I love that so much.

But coming up next, Anthony Edwards says that they are the biggest rival with the Denver Nuggets. Rachel gives us a story coming up on The Herd. Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd, Weekdays and New Newn Eastern. 9 a.m. Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the IHeart Radio app. Hey, it's Rob Parker and Kelvin Washington from The Odd Couple on Fox Sports Radio. And in addition to hearing us live weeknights from 7 to 10 p.m. Eastern on Fox Sports Radio, we are excited to announce brand new YouTube channel for the show. That's right. You can now watch the Odd Couple live on YouTube every day.

All you got to do, search Odd Couple FSR on YouTube again. YouTube, just search Odd Couple FSR. Check us out on YouTube and subscribe. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, name? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas.

We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember.

I think it was on a call about. about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this.

We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody's.

gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer-beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action

with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis. And I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs,

and on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on Clay. Jenchian win. I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lerabakina is arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any surface because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Back in on the herd, I'm Danny Parkins in for Colin Cowherd. Rachel Nichols' NBA Awards ballot coming up in about 15 minutes. Can't wait. We have breaking news, though. before her blind in just a second. Will Anderson, not a bad deal if you can get it.

Three years, $150 million with $134 guaranteed. The largest contract ever for a non-quarterback deal includes a full no trade clause, and he deserves it. What a draft pick. What a trade for the Houston Texans. Who would have thought there would be more questions about C.J. Stroud than Will Anderson. Will Anderson, one of the two or three best defensive players in football, and he just got paid like it.

But now here's Rachel with the news. No, no, no, no, turn on the news. This is the herd line news. I don't know, Danny, you're working six hours today. That could be your salary coming up. Who knows? 120 mil? You're hired.

You're hired. Yeah, that would be great. Let's talk a little bit about one of the games tonight. The Warriors earned the chance by beating the Clippers to play the Sons for the eighth seed in the West. And one son in particular is excited for the matchup. Yep, hide your shock, Danny. Dylan Brooks said he wanted the Warriors.

because of Steph, because of Draymond, because of Steve Kerr, he said. And we all remember those battles, right? When Dylan was back in Memphis and, like, there was a lot of bad blood between him and the Warriors players. I don't know. Who do you think will win this game? So I don't want to pick against Steph and Draymond. Like, Steve Kerr was like, we're champions for one night. I'm like, can you make it too?

I'm going to tell you, I was at that game. I felt everything he felt. So you think they were one and done? They put everything into beating Kauai, and they got nothing left for tonight? I just think it was a great example of the Warriors basketball that has won them titles.

And they haven't been that team in a very long time. And I think that is what, and you can't know if you're that team until something's on the line. And last night was their chance, or a couple nights ago, was their chance to prove it,

and they got to beat themselves again. And for a bunch of guys who were very proud, it was a big deal. So I actually agree with Steve Kerr. Everything he said felt like it in the moment. but I don't know. Who are you picking? I'm picking the Warriors

because I think if you can dial it up for that one game, you can dial it up again, but then you're not going to be able to dial it up against the Thunder. I think you are in the class with Phoenix. You're in the class with the Clippers, even if this isn't obviously

a Warriors team that is any shot of winning anything. And yeah, Dylan Brooks having bad blood with a team, it's shocking. It's so weird. It's just so out of character. character. But you know what, you know, the heroes need villains. So, you know, I do think it makes the sport more interesting. And yet, the Warriors game the other night, this is a little

cornier that I normally like to be, although I guess people on the internet would disagree. It really was like Disney movie Heart of a Champion stuff. Yeah, it really was. You know, it's like they're playing for the love of the game. Like it was just all of those like little cliches that Draymond's going into the time machine, Steph being vintage. It was not everything about sports has to be about winning a championship. Sometimes it can just be about the two and a half hours of entertainment that's in front of you. And that was a wildly entertaining sporting event. Yeah, by the way, that is my attitude towards sports in that not everyone's going to win.

In fact, only one team can win at the end of the season. If the only joy, you know, I know the line, there's winning and there's misery, I get it. But if the only joy you can take is out of a title, you're not going to be very happy. And sports are fun. Be happy. So I like that take, Danny. I like it a lot. All right.

Brett Veach says he expects there to be a lot of trades in the first round, but don't expect the commanders. Now, I'm from D.C. I don't know if you know that. So I'm very interested in your take here. He said, don't expect the commanders to be one of the teams on the move. In fact, Washington GM, Adam Peters said it is more likely that they will stay at seven, depending on who's on the board. I'm not ashamed to say

the commanders had a defense that was let's just call it subpar let's call it subpar Danny last year so who do you think they should take at seven where are you on whether they should try to trade down or wherever they go so I think that they are one of the teams

that is least likely in the top 10 to trade down because my guess is that they believe that last year was a product of injury and not who they really are right like they even if it's not true Washington wants to believe that the team that was in the NFC championship game

Jaden Daniels' rookie year is more likely to be the team so then they treat it obviously a few Super Bowl short, but they treat it kind of like the Chiefs where it's like what a rare opportunity. We don't expect to be picking this high with Jade and Daniels. So I do think that Washington

is one of the more likely teams in the top 10 to stand pat for that reason because they don't think that they're going to be drafting there much longer. And from all the reporting around this draft, it's, there's kind of cliffs between the levels. Yeah. And at the top and at the top of the draft is where the best players are. And at the top of the draft, it's Mendoza, maybe an offensive lineman or two, depending on how you view it, and one of the receivers. And this group of like six truly difference-making defensive players, Dan Quinn's a defensive coach. Yeah. You just met, you just mentioned how

bad the defense was last year. Subpar, Danny. Say subpar. Subpar. Don't defense shame. You know what? I'm going to try to class it up. I'm working with you. I'll say I'll say bad for first things first. A subpar defense in Washington. Hey, I get it.

It feels very unlikely that Dan Quinn in a, I don't know if it's a complete make or break year, but that seat is at least warming for Dan Quinn. feels very unlikely that he would pass on the opportunity to add a blue-chip defensive player in this huge upcoming season for Washington. I mean, look, I love the safety out of Ohio State. In fact, they've got two players on that team that I would be okay if they took, so I'm okay. And it's not the deepest draft, and that's fine.

We're fine with it. It's all good. Yeah, you're coping. That's a lot of copium right there on a great Quebec. We do what we can. The Timberwolves and Nuggets, let's get to that matchup because that is set. They face each other again in the playoffs. And you know, Danny, what happens when teams play each other over and over in multiple years.

And if you don't know, Anthony Edwards is happy to tell you. I want to read you his quote. He says, I don't think there's anything else but to call it a rivalry. There's a lot of rivalries in the league right now. And I think me and Denver is one of them. And first of all, I love that he said me and Denver. Not the Trevor Wolves. I do too.

And the Nuggets, me and Denver, because it's Anthony Edwards and we love that about him. What do you think about, you know, that rivalry? You think about the rivalers are in the NBA right now. Do you think that's one of the best ones? I think it's not one of the ones that we talk about because of the regular, like, market size. Yeah.

But they have been awesome playoff series. And they have been remarkably close. Yeah. Like, so Anthony Edwards has had the Timberwolves and the Western Conference finals in back-to-back years. As you mentioned, they've played the nuggets in each of those two years. So they've played 12 playoff games against each other. The Nuggets of 1, 7, the T-Wills of 1-5.

The number of points that separates these teams. Oh, I love this. Go ahead. Eight. Oh, my God. That is great. It's 1,254 to 1,246 over 1212 games. So, of course, it's a great playoff rivalry. And I am a little, because I am the gambler and you're the journalist.

Yeah. Denver is, what's the more noble thing? Who's to say? It's a journalist. It's journalist. Denver's a huge favorite in this series, and I get it. Aaron Gordon's healthy. Jamal Murray is playing excellent,

and the Timberwolves have not looked quite like themselves. But I don't think they deserve to be as big of a favorite as they are because of that playoff history. I mean, look, the Timberwolves have succeeded in flipping the playoff switch. I mean, each of the seasons, they've gotten to the Western Conference finals, They've been like this the whole way in. It's hard to see them being able to do it again. I mean, there's only so many times in a row.

You can get away with that. But if anyone can, this team knows how to do it. I just, as someone who would like to see Nicola Yokic, make it to a Western Conference finals again, have the chance. I mean, he's the best player in basketball. I would like to see him on that big, big stage again. I think whoever comes out of this matchup has the toughest road in the Western Conference. The bracket was just not nice to these teams because Yokic is favored against Anthony

Edwards and his team, but then you turn around and who do you play, right? And then if you survive the Spurs, then you likely play the Oklahoma City Thunder. And then if you're somehow get by them, you're playing in the finals against the East Best Team. So whoever comes out of this will have a very tough road ahead, but it's going to be good. You just pointed it out. Yeah, and I like in Denver, the criticism of their first title, I guess, was we had, they had an easy path. This would not be an easy path. This is the hard way. What do they call it for the hard way, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, if you go through Anthony Edwards, the Joker, and then the Oklahoma City Thunder, you've certainly earned your trip to the NBA finals. All right, good stuff. That's Rachel Nichols with the news.

Well, that's the news. And thanks for stopping by. The Heard Lye News. But we are now going to put Rachel to even more work, because coming up next. I'm very excited. We have left plenty of time for this. She is one of 100 people with an official NBA awards ballot. The ballot is due in an hour and 26 minutes. And her ballot is not, not only not submitted. She has done all of the research, but she has not actually made a decision on a few key issues. She will tell us those issues.

I will try to help her decide. And we'll see if she is ready to reveal at the end of the next segment who she is going to vote for in these key awards. I can't wait. I'm Danny Park. It's from Colin. She's Rachel Nichols. This is The Herd. Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd, Weekdays in noon Eastern, 9-8-8-8.

AM Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the IHard Radio app. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, new? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it.

We just contributed to a podcast. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call. about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it

one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad,

Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcast. or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

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Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis. and I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris, every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on Clay. Jenchian went.

I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lina Rabakina is arguably the best player in the world right now, and I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court-side seat to the French Open.

Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Saturday night is baseball night on Fox, and this week it's Ronald O'Cunia Jr. and the Braves versus Bryce Harper and the Phillies. Or over in the AL, it's Rangers Mariners. Baseball night in America tomorrow, 7 Eastern, only on Fox. Thank you, Rachel. I'm Danny Parkins in for Colin on The Herd.

We had Jeff Schwartz and the bear, Chris Felica next hour. I'm in on all the first things first today, but I've got to be honest, the next 12 minutes is the main event. There are only 100 people in the country that have an NBA awards ballot. This has Supermax implications. This has legacy, all-time events. implications, all sorts of things. Rachel Nichols is one of those 100 people. The deadline is three Eastern, so an hour and 19 minutes from now. Rachel, you have not yet submitted your ballot.

I've got almost 80 minutes. That's like a lifetime, Danny. Come on. Listen, I know about those people at Northwestern. You guys procrastinate. Okay, I get it. Syracuse people, we get it done early. I'm so torn on MVP. And in fact, the debate you and KOC had in the last, you know, a few minutes, actually kind of change my rankings a little bit. I'm not there yet. At the end of the show, I will be turning it in. But I got to tell you, those points he made about Wembe, they really resonated with me. I told you when we did this at the top of the show that I was so conflicted between the two of them.

It's just hard. She's been spectacular. And you made so many great points. It's one of the best guard seasons we've ever seen. I could also say about Nicolioch. Again, we've never seen someone who's led the league in assists and rebounds. of John Stockton and Dennis Robman, which is bizarre. I want a graphic of that at some point.

So there's a lot of things we haven't seen that much before. Wembe is changing the geometry of the league. KOC's points about how he change his offense as well. And you cannot argue, defense isn't just part of this. Defense should be half of this or maybe at least 40% of this. I mean, it changes the outcome of the game. So I started out leaning Shea. Danny, I'm not going to lie, I'm leading Wembe right.

now. Oh my gosh. So here's the problem with that. It's just going to be huge for, it's going to be huge for KOC's ego, which I don't know, which I don't know if we could get any bigger. So I don't know, the 60-40 offense defense thing is something. It is an offensive league, right? Yeah. Good offense beats good defense. It takes one person. It used to be the other way. I remember I was covering this league when it was the other way around. Sure. In the modern era of basketball. In the three-point era of basketball, I remember that. There we go.

In the three-point era of basketball, good offense, beats good defense. We saw it when Yokic and Wembe had their great battle, right? Yokic's offense ended up getting the best of Wembe. The impact of Wembe on the offensive, he's obviously a great offensive player. and the 120 point average if he played all the minutes. He doesn't play all the minutes. You could argue on either side, and I believe both sides. On the one hand, She plays so many more minutes, 400 minutes.

By the way, I like the KOC brought out that Kevin Durant's dad. I have that on my no-fook, too. KD's played 500 more minutes than Shea has, right? So it's not necessarily the decider. But, KD's not up for MVP. I 100% agree. I think the fact that you do it over and over again. I mean, that's the thing.

Shea's consistency is such a superpower. And the fact that you can extend out those minutes and he's still doing it is 100% on his side. However, 100% on Wembe's side is he's putting up these numbers that are right near Shea's, right? And he's doing it in less minutes. So there's something to that also. Are the offensive number, like if you're averaging six fewer points per game and three fewer assists per game, on a per 36 basis it's closer, but like on actual like, well, but that's the thing.

That feels more theoretical. Like, in terms of like on the court, if you're averaging six fewer points per game, I'm not sure how close it really is. Look, Danny, I'm not punching that button until the end of the show. I know. But I'm a little swayed right now. I got to tell you.

And look, again, I don't want to pretend that I haven't thought about this before these three hours of this show. It's because I have thought about it incessantly for the last couple weeks. We even had an extra week to think about it as voter. because of these appeals or whatever. I have looked through everything. It is so, so close. And the people who would say,

Yogich completely have a case to, I could make the case for Shea all day. And I could apparently make the case for Wembe all day. And I think there's some real validity in the Wembe argument. And I may be leaning that way right now. Okay. So you're leaning Wembe, started with Shea. Just don't send this clip to Kevin O'Connor.

What is another place on your ballot? that you are presently undecided. Well, look, you know, there's some places down the ballot. We don't need to talk about these, about sort of who gets wear on the all defensive teams, you know, and all NBA teams. Once you get past that first all NBA team, which you and I agree on, there are some question marks about how to do it.

But, you know, rookie of the year is the most controversial one. And it is going to draw a lot of people to either side. And there are so many valid arguments, again, on either side, that's why it's a good contest. I mean, this idea that people are like, you don't know what you're talking about. And if you vote for that person, that's trash. That is just not true.

These players are exceptional. And if you vote for one of them exceptional over the other exceptional, it doesn't mean you think any less of the first guy. And this is one of those situations. Con Cinepple and Cooper Flagg do two completely different things. And so that is why it is so hard to make this A&B comparison. And I have been leaning to Cooper Flag since this morning, still leaning to Cooper Flag. but it is in arguable the impact that Khan has made

and done it on the team that is playing better. I just, I don't know. I think Cooper's been and shown the more complete player. I think there's been more asked of him this season. And defensively, he's definitely got Khan beat there too. And as they said, defense matters to me. Listen, I think defense mattering for sure. I don't mean this to sound reductive.

Like, other than shooting, is there anything Khan does better than Cooper? I guess you could say team accomplishment. Well, not just that, but his impact on the rest of the team. The way he spaces the floor really enables the rest. I mean, some guys are multipliers, right? Steph Curry is a multiplier. He makes everyone else on the court better, and that's no small thing. It's not like some theoretical thing.

He actually changes what other people can do. And Concanipal has been able to change what some of the hornets can do out on the court. That is a big deal. And then also, you know, look, he does a really good job of, you know, helping to organize plays out there. he's been a great leader in the locker room. There's a lot of reports there about he's been the driving force of, hey, we got to do it. Lamello, you know, we've been talking about this all show.

Lamello is not the most like hard as nails guy and that, you know, Con has been able to come in there and kind of give that edge a little bit to more of the Hornets. But again, I just when it comes down to it, I got to go Cooper Flag. Yeah, me too. Again, without a ballot. I've just never looked at Rookie of the Year. it's the only one that I don't factor in team success at all because it's not traditionally a sport where a rookie transforms a team

and makes a huge impact on winning right away and it's situation-based, you can't control what situation you end up going to. And the fact that Cooper Flagg is not playing just as a wing, he's a point forward as a 19th... Right, yeah, just the size of a forward point player playing point guard as a 19-year-old leading in points, rebounds, assists, steals, excuse me, not blocks, first rookie since Jordan to lead a team in all four of

those categories. He's just the better player. And so, and I think you said something on social media the other night that was interesting about voters are human. Like, I would not let the play in game and cons no show impact it. Do you think, because the ballot is clearly due after that game. It is supposed to be a regular season award. You think it is actually on the table that that game would work against Concanipple, even though part of the argument for him is his team was good enough to get there. Right, absolutely.

And look, I don't think in the end that most voters will take that into account. And that is for the simple question of Cooper Flagg didn't have a chance this past week to pass or fail, right? He didn't have the chance to fall in his face, but he didn't have a chance to succeed either. And it's not fair to say one guy had this stage and the other didn't, and therefore we're going to vote for one guy over the other. I don't think that most voters will take it into account. I certainly haven't taken into account. But it's worth noting only because it has never happened before.

It has never in NBA history happened that this vote happens after multiple playing games. And it's just a quirk of this 65 game rule, which is new, combining with a play-in, which is still relatively new. And so we've never seen something like this. And while I think most voters are capable of making the distinction, you know, the reason why the reason why the term recency bias exists in sports is because it's real. I mean, it happens. Right. Speaking of something that's never happened before, you have the 65 game rule, which is new, and then you have these exemptions, which just came in. And we talked a little bit just kind of in passing earlier about like the down-ballot implications of Luca being eligible,

of Cade being eligible. Everyone's going to have Luca on first team all NBA. But that means there were potentially two first team all NBA spots available. Now there's one. We're assuming it's going to be a Jalen Brown, Kate Cunningham debate. But, like, I think someone has to be left off entirely. Right? Like, if Jalen Brown gets put down on the second team and so on and so forth, are you comfortable sharing who would be like 16th and 17th on your ballot at this point?

That's not how I organize it, right? And I was always counting on Luca making it. There is no way the NBA is going to tell a player, I'm punishing you for going to the birth of your child. I mean, it's terrible optics, and it's actually not the way that the NBA front office thinks. They want their players to support their families. So Luca was always going to get in there.

I was surprised at Cade, but I had kind of the different variables. My biggest thing, come to my soapbox, Danny. Come, come listen in. Why does Cade Cunningham get this exception, and Anthony Edwards doesn't? I do not understand. Is it just that collapse lung sounds more dramatic, right? Anthony Edwards was out for two periods of time where he had a significant injury problem.

One was an infection in his foot that made it hard for him to walk. So he couldn't have played basketball, okay? That was a real thing. And an infection in your foot, you know, I guess if you take it out to its illogical conclusion, they could amputate the foot, they weren't going to do that. But if collapsed lung is too dramatic for you,

how about we say, you know, oh my God, the infected foot? And then, of course, the knee injury that kept him out of 11 of the last 30s. 13 games. I just don't get it. Why? And I know he, you know, Kay was able to finish, you know, two more than ants or whatever, but I, if you get injured on the job, here's my question to you. You get injured on the job by doing your job. You didn't get injured somewhere else. You didn't trip over your staircase. You didn't do whatever. You got injured on the job. Most people in most offices, if you're a full-time employee, you don't get punished for that. You get workers comp for

that, right? Punishing players because they got injured does make no sense to me. And I think they had a re-look at this rule, which I've hated to begin with, and sort of say, great, if you're out, you know, four or five games in a row, you're obviously not resting. So we don't count those against you. Right now, you can only miss 17 games. I just don't think injury games should be part of those 17 games. Thank you for sharing your soapbox with us. Thank you. There's not, there's not as much room. Like soapboxes are normally like a one-person thing. You're with me, Danny. On your soap bucket? I appreciate it.

Listen, I think the 65 game rule was well-intentioned and then it's had way too many unintended consequences, and they're going to have to look at it at some point in the offseason, though Adam Silver says they won't. Rachel Nichols will submit her ballot by the end of the show. Coming up, the Oklahoma City Thunder and SGA, I think, are still being underappreciated. Dynasty on the horizon. And if it's the Nick's last stand, that's coming up on the herd.

Hey, guys, it's us and the Jonas brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. What? We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it.

We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but, you know, tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite, unhumored me with

Robert Smygel and Friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Winning on clay is an art. The rallies are relentless. And at the French Open, Only the toughest survive. I'd know.

I competed there for decades. Join me, Renee Stubbs, on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast for no-nonsense breakdowns of the biggest matches, the toughest players, and the moments that define Roland Garris. Jen, she's an outsider to win the French fame. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lennar Rabakina is arguably the best player in the world right now, and I actually can win on any surface.

Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Slice on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed human.