The Herd with Colin Cowherd - The Herd Saturday Special with Agent David Falk

Episode Date: December 26, 2020

Colin talks with Agent David Falk, whose clients included Michael Jordan, Patrick Ewing and Coach K, and they discuss a new book about his mentor John Thompson. He tells Colin stories about his fights with John Thompson as well as negotiating Michael Jordan's first deal with Nike in this exclusive podcast. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games.

This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 is big to me.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild. I mean, it was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everybody, and welcome to our Saturday podcast. Well, this week we don't have our usual blazing five football picks. Instead, I thought, this is a time. On a Saturday morning, the NBA season started this week. I bring on an old familiar voice, David Fulke. He's a sports agent. Now, we all know there's lots of sports agents, but in my opinion, the most instrumental, creative, and most formidable ever is David. His clients were Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Morning. Maybe you've heard of him. But most notably, Michael

Jordan. And in the 90s, David was often considered the second most powerful person in the NBA behind David Stern. He negotiated Michael's Air Jordan deal with Nike, which is a fascinating story, Space Jam with Warner Brothers, also executive producer on the movie. And it was a time when agents, the really creative agents, broke ground that had never been broken before, and everybody else has followed since. Well, David's got a new book on who, a person he calls his hero, the late John Thompson, legendary Georgetown Hoya basketball coach. The book is called I Came As a Shadow. And the writer, somebody I've known and interviewed Jesse Washington, was released last week.

John Thompson passed away late August earlier this year. And I bring on David Falk. So you wrote an opinion piece earlier this year after John Thompson passed away. When I was in Las Vegas, John would make regular. trips to Las Vegas and was friends with Jerry Tarkhanian. Beyond watching him, David, in the Big East, that was my first real, you know, indoctrination to his size and his magnitude. Where did you meet John Thompson? Let's start with that. Great story. Kind introduction. So I met John in 1980 when he had the first NBA draft choice, was John Bebe Duren, who is the 19th pick of the Utah

jazz and Craig Beak, Sky Shelton. And in life, you know, when you're successful, a lot of people want to take credit for your success. So I was young at the time. I was 30 years old, and my boss at the time was a gentleman named Donald Dell, and he always assumed that John came to us because of his reputation. Coach Dean Smith, who John was an assistant coach for at the 1976 Olympics at Montreal, always sort of took credit and said, you know, I'd recommend it to John that he'd see you guys because you're very good at what you do. And I knew that there was no way that I had any major role in him coming to our firm. So about five or six years into our relationship, P.S. one day, did you ever figure out why I asked your firm and Bebe and then later

on Sleepy Floyd and Patrick Ewing and dozens of others? I said, I just assumed it was because of Dahl's reputation. He said, no, I really didn't like Donald. I assumed that it's probably because of Coach Smith. He said, well, Coach Smith did recommend you, but I'm sort of my own guy. It turns out that when John played the Celtics for two years after you graduated from Providence, he made about $5,000 or $6,000 a year. Back then, the showers were so low that most of the players had summer jobs. And he lived in Boston. He couldn't afford his own place with a childless family named Harold and Marty Furesh. And when I met my wife, Rhonda, who's from Boston,

her father was golf buddies with Hal Fierash. And Fierish told John, in 1973 when he started to Georgetown, I met this young lawyer, a law student who loves sports. He's like a complete zero. You're a high school coach trying to become a college coach. You don't have a lot on your resume. You guys should meet each other. And I never knew that, but seven years later we met and became lifelong friends.

And he's been extremely probably, I've wrote in my own book, The Ball Truth, that John has been the most influential man in my life more than my own father. Not as much as my mother, Pearl Falk, but the most influential man. And I absolutely love the guy and miss him dearly. So, David, it was interesting. back when I was a small town kid in Washington State, the PAC 12 was pretty pedestrian and the Big East was everything. So we didn't have the cable infiltration, but I was a huge fan of John, a young Jim Beheim, PJ Carlissimo, Louis Carnaceca. And it was such a tribal, wonderful sports conference where they battled Petino, but they were all kind of friends. Like they were like guys that they put their arm around each other and then go, you know, try to beat each other's brains out in basketball.

Sure. And when I look at that, John was a very intimidating person. And when I think about John, I think about protecting his players and intimidating. Was he like that with you or did you often see that that he kept people at bay? I think people had an image of John as an intimidating person, and he in his book would say a lot of that has to do with the fact that he was 6'10, he had a large head, and he was black. And I think he commanded respect, and I think he learned, because he's such a smart man, he learned how to use the image of being intimidating to his benefit. it. I think he was forceful, but I saw a whole different side of him. You know, it's an unbelievably funny set to humor, extremely kind and nurturing to me.

Oftentimes in sports, in their uniform, you say that there's very few conferences ever that have been more competitive in the Big East in that time, and they person is all the time. And I know myself that is completely untrue. You take a person like Patrick Ewing. Patrick is the biggest teddy bear I've ever met. He's thoughtful, he's respectful, he's kind. But when he puts his uniform on and goes to work, he's intense. Same thing with the laws of the morning. Same thing with me.

When I put my suit on and I'm working for these guys, they're the best in the world. I'm not here to play around. I'm here to go to work. Now, one of my friends, and I'm not working, I don't want to go to work. but people, it is a psychological term, Colin, called functional fixity, where you see a thing in one context and you can't transpose it into another. And so I think John learned to use the image of him, you know, to his benefit. Now, I'll tell you, there was a time, one of the, there was a gentleman,

I can't think his name flips my mind from him, who's an African-American writer for Sports Illustrated. And we got on a Zoom to sort of interview him. and discussed the project and he asked john he said john you've never had any african you know you've had very few white players in your program why is that and without blinking john says to the guy the white player i would never let him play for john toff

that blew the guys behind he said really why is that and he said because of the way you people in the media have portrayed me as this you know tyrannical edie a mean type i you would scare the pants off the and so He understood how he was portrayed, and he couldn't change it. And honestly, he never tried to change it.

He was unapologetic that the things he was doing to protect. I mean, Georgetown had a 97% graduation rate during John's 27 years there. I guarantee that the general population, Georgetown, didn't have a 97% graduation. You know, David, what's interesting, you were his lawyer, agent, marketing rep. many of the people close to John, from my understanding, were not African-American. Iran was intentional. His financial advisor was white. Ms. Stonland, who was the academic coordinator, who was a nun, was white.

He had the first female trainer, Lori Michael, who was with him his entire career, white. So what was great about John, what I found, there are many things that I found fascinating about this man, But one of the things that I found fascinating was that he would tell a person who was white, he would really forcefully make you try to see things through a black perspective to understand discrimination, limitations. And he would, on the other hand, while he was a champion for opportunity for African American people, he never allowed any of the black agents to represent his players because he said they didn't want to experiment, not because he didn't think that they were capable, but we had established a track record.

And so I've had it like, I've told him about one of the most amazing stories. When I first got to know John, met him in 80, he became a client in 1982. One day I'm driving home from work. I passed Georgetown, and I stopped off just to say, had broken up and took about a third of the client.

So I needed to hire another person in my basketball. But no one would, no one of color as a lawyer. And the players met a gentleman giving a speech in Houston for the American Bar Association named William Strickland, who played college basketball, college baseball, a graduate degree, pretty a way better resume than I had. And so I stop off at Georgetown to say hi to John. And he says to me, David, tell me about this guy, Bill Strickland. I had no idea, Bill Strickland. He knew who he was.

And I said, God, John, the guy's got a really impressive background. He's got a law degree, whatever. He said, David, I'm not asking for his freaking eulogy. I just want to know, are you going to hire the guy? And I said, you know, I really don't know. And he said, why wouldn't you hire him if he has all these qualifications? I say, you know, John, I don't understand clients. It's extremely important to them that we have an African-American attorney,

not just an African-American accountant, not African-American financial advisor, a marketing person. And whoever we hire is going to be under a spotlight. People are going to ask, are you hiring him because of his color, or you're hiring him because of his talent. And so I want to be 100% sure that the guy hires, hires, that I hire in this environment, you know, can stay in the spotlight and will be logical, rational. And he said to me, really?

That's what you're thinking is? And I said, yeah. And he goes, David, do you understand that people have you been using excuses like that for 100 years to not hire black people? And whatever I would say to him to explain how it's carving me to pieces. And I was almost because I thought that, and finally at the end, you're Jewish, made it against for 3,000 years, but no one knows that you're Jewish when they meet you.

People make me, they know in black. I just want you to learn to be sensitive to the fact that black people expect to be. And he walked away. 1980, I was driving a very such by God. You know, had he done it in a less caring way, I would have been angry because I didn't think God was being on. He made me understand. years, Colin, we probably had that way he would, to look at something in a way that I never

looked at it before. And I think that's called education. It taught me a lot, things I could never have learned from anyone else, and he did it, made an enormous impact. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations,

stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to? Do a little kill.

Well, you can find out on The Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack.

So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have age. on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people

in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, learning the hard way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience

in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it.

And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro.

Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keer Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free, Our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. David Fulke, sports agent, Michael Jordan, Patrick Ewing, John Thompson, Alonzo Morning, DeKembe Montumbo, among his many clients. You know, it's interesting.

You talk about John teaching you things. The book is called I Came As a Shadow by Jesse Washington. Michael did the same thing. You told me a story before that I think is fascinating. It's something I think about a lot, is that I have a very good agent, Nick Kahn. I used to. Now he's moved on to, he runs a company now. But one of the things I've always thought about in representation is I know me,

And I know my audience better than my agent, who's obviously will eventually be much smarter than me. And Michael and John Thompson, I think, had an understanding of who they are and how they were viewed. Now, John was much older than the young Michael you represented. But do you remember times with Michael early in your career, where he may be 26, 27, that Michael would sit you down with your career? and there was a light bulb moment where the young man taught his representative something. Oh, yeah, often. I'll tell you a great one. So maybe back of third or fourth year, Donald Dell came up with the idea.

He was a tennis guy. And in tennis they had these challenge matches where Jimmy Connoz will play, you know, Bjorn Borg, winner take off for a million dollars. And Donald sort of viewed himself as a little bit as a television emperiorio. And he came to me and said, God, I got a great. idea, why don't we do a Michael Jordan versus Magic Johnson one-on-one winner-take-all? And I didn't really give it a lot of thought. So I called it Michael and said, you know, hey, Donald's got this great idea. Like, what do you think? And when I did

blinking, he comes right back to me, he said, David, are you stupid? I said, gosh, I hope not. Why do you ask me that? He said, okay, here's the deal. He said, everyone looks at me as the ultimate one-on-one player. I've never won a championship. You know, I've won scoring titles. and they look at magic as the ultimate team players got three or four rings. So if I play Magic one-on-one and I win, he's going to say, well, what do you expect? That's who Michael Jordan is.

He's like a one-on-one, you know, empressario. Then Magic's got the rings, and he beat me one-on-one. What's the upside? And I thought to myself, when he finished saying that, I thought to myself, God, you dummy, why didn't you think of that? So I went back to the tunnel, and said, look, Michael really doesn't want to do it. And he said to me, David, you got to make him do it.

I said, what, are you kidding me? And he said, I said, there's no way he feels really strongly. And he said, look, who are you working for? Are you working for Michael Jordan? And without blinking, I said, Donald, the minute that Michael Jordan ever thinks that I'm not working for Michael Jordan, he's going to fire a pro server. And that was the end of the discussion. So, you know, Michael's an extremely intelligent person. And I think, you know, I look at all these players, and if you can't learn a lot from the way they approach competition, preparation, you know, psychological warfare, you talked about the Big East, the psychological warfare.

John was very friendly with Beehive off the course of Nassimito. You know, he wore the famous sweater at the Garden. He copied the sweater, Louis Cauch's Psycho War. But he would never go on a Big East trip. He said, David, do you go on vacation? with the agents that are trying to beat your brains out. And it was really, you know, he didn't, you know, he didn't go any of those trips because he knew that when the time came, while he liked them and respected them,

that, you know, achieving what he wanted to achieve was the national championship. So I learned a ton for my clients, and I try to share that in my own book, The Ball Truth, what I learned from dealing with, you know, world-class athletes, some of the most important CEOs in the country. But the one thing I would differ with you on, when you said that you know your audience better, clearly my clients knew basketball better than I did, but they didn't know the business of basketball better than I did.

And my job, as I saw it, was two things. My main job was to teach them the business of basketball, you know, to teach them how to use their talent and personalities to maximize their impact in the marketplace. And it was also to try into dollars. So people think that the players, players are conditioned, Colin, from a very early age, especially today, to be 12 years old,

the number one 12-year-old of the country. Everyone's falling over them to go to the right, you know, AAU program and the right college. And it's hard to keep their perspective. But if you really think about it, when a player is about to go into the NBA, okay, he's on the cusp of being in the NBA, everything about him,

at that point is a given. His height, his weight, his speed, his jumping ability, his shooting ability, his rebouting ability, his knowledge of the game, everything fixed. The only variable

is the talent of his agent to translate what he brings to the party into dollars. And so before there was a rookie weight scale, which came in in 1995, I had two rookie players, Patrick Ewing and Danny Ferry, Patrick at 85 and Danny in 1990,

whose rookie contract was the highest playing contract in the history of the NBA. Patrick's working contract with the Nixon 85 was 55% higher than Karim Dalaijabal, who was the highest player in the history of the league. And you can't do that anymore. They'd be creative. But my point is my clients do way more about basketball than I did, and the GMs I dealt with. And, you know, my hero growing up in basketball was Jerry West.

And to this day, I am an unabashed Jerry West fan. I love the guy. You know, he was a great player. He's been an amazing executive. He's just a super guy just in Keiske-Cone College. I knew all sorts of if you're on the job, a lot more about basketball than I would ever know. And if I try to compete on my knowledge of basketball versus theirs,

I would fail every time. So I had to develop, I had to develop an expertise in the economics of basketball, which I did. and that enabled me to compete against these people who were more talented in basketball knowledge than I was. John Thompson was David Fulke's hero. He writes about it the book I Came As a Shadow by Jesse Washington. And though John had strong feelings about race relations, you've told me this book

is not a book in which you or John are lecturing. is just perceptions on the world John dealt with. Well, it's John's book. I want to Christopher Clips, not my book. It's John's book. And it's something he wrote, you know, not to explain himself to people. He never felt a need to explain himself. I just think he wanted to share sort of his knowledge, his perceptions, his observations.

I mean, he talks, for example, the early part of the book growing up in Anacostia, you know, which is a very, very, you know, modest area in Washington, to put it nicely. And he said he never felt deprived. You know, he was loved by his parents. He didn't expect that he'd be able to get a lot of things, but he had most of what he needed to get a place to sleep and a very positive. But he was a person, in my opinion, most of all, who challenged the status quo.

Most people accept things as they are. and John challenging things, not for the sake of being, you know, a contrarian, but things that he thought were wrong, like Proposition, you know, 40. He walked off, you know, and, I mean, God, that took a tremendous amount of courage. You know, he brought students to Georgetown, which is a prestigious, lowly white university who came from the inner city and probably didn't qualify under any of the standard measurements of education. And it wasn't that he just got him in, but he kept him in and got him to graduate.

And a lot of those players today that weren't the Patrick Ewing and weren't the, you know, Alan Iverson of people like Ralph Dalton who got really seriously heard his first, he'd been a stockbroker most of his career, or Ron Blaylock, who has a very, very successful, you know, minority investment firm, or Michael Jackson, who played two or three years in the NBA and became the head of Nike basketball of North America. I mean, I could go on. These people, Matambo after basketball, has become a very successful businessman

and an international ambassador of basketball. The success of these players off the court is what he taught. He had the famous basketball that was deflated and said, don't define yourself by eight and a half pound out of the ball at some point, and you have to bring something else to the table. So he was an incredible. educator. He used basketball as a platform to educate these young people about all sorts of human, human issues. Not simply racism, but clearly, you know, that was one, that was one

aspect because he had a primarily African-American team. And, you know, there are fans in America. You talked about growing up, first of all, when you grow up, I should probably wasn't the Pac-12, it was probably the Pac-8. Yeah. But, you know, there were fans on the West Coast. was the thought that George Town was a historically black college, which is almost comical, you know, because team achieved such a high level of recognition nationally under his leadership and such a strong marketing identity that a lot of people who didn't know thought it was an HBC.

This question I think about as you talk about that. So John's teams were very physical and very intimidating. I can remember a final four game in which he wanted Patrick Ewing to have several goal-tending calls against him early, as if to say, we're not letting anything get in here. We don't care about giving up points. He loved aggressive teams. Was John using how people viewed him as being strong and physical? Was he using that imagery with his teams? I mean, John could have coached many different ways, David. all coaches can. But John always wanted to accent, toughness, and physicality.

Was that by design? Is that who he is? Is that how he played? Well, it's not how he played. He actually was a, you know, he was actually a fidesse player. He was a great college player who was drafted by the Celtics, and he was a great player in high school. I think that he emphasized defense. I think John, in his philosophy, felt that offense would come from the defense, so they played an extremely aggressive defense. So did Jerry Tarkhanian, by the way. You view them offensively, but Jerry was all about defense. Right, and I think John would, I think most coaches that I had met, to great coaches,

would say that defense and rebounding are about come from desire. You know, you have to have skill, clearly, but you have to want, you have to take pride in shutting a guy down. And you look at great defenders in the NBA, like Gary Payton, or obviously John played behind Bill Russell as the greatest defensive player. in history. Those guys, now, Bill Russell was intimidating, but he was skinny as a rail, okay? He was intimidating because he was so freaking talented that no matter where you were on the court, you had a worry was Russell behind you, was he was going to block your shot.

And I think people being intimidating doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be a thug. It means you have to, it's like being a great deback. You might be a great deback in the NFL away 160 pounds, but if you cover your guy like, a glove, you don't have to hit him like Tatum did, you know. Yeah, Dionne Sanders, by the way, didn't like to tackle, but he scared every quarterback in the league. You didn't want to throw near him. Exactly. Okay. Now, was he intimidating? Was he intimidating? Clearly, he was intimidating because he was so talented. Right. And he was smart. And I think John's teams were really smart.

People assume, you know, when they say they're intimidating, that they weren't talented, They were extremely talented, and he developed the ability of those guys to shut. When they played Kentucky in the semifinal game before they won the national championship, they held Kentucky without a basket for over six minutes in the game. I mean, that is, I've never in my entire life seen a game in any, I would say soccer. It's different. In basketball, put it that way, where a team just completely shut down. Kentucky was a great team with Sam Bowie and Melvin Terper.

They were a great team, and they shut him down. The game you're referring to was the next game in the finals against Carolina, where Patrick Goldthended the first five, and he was sending a message. Yeah. No easy basketballs that I thought you're going to have to really earn it. And to me, that's smart. You know, I think that if you look at someone like a Tiger Woods, okay, or Michael Jordan, I think what made them so amazing is that the players that they competed with

didn't think that they could beat them. Players didn't think that they could beat Michael Jordan. If you were playing against him and you're five points behind, he's five points behind, you know, he's coming after you. And if he's five points ahead, he's going to do you up like you've never. Michael, I think Michael was probably the second greatest defensive player in NBA history behind Bill Russell. you know, when he wanted to shut someone down,

this is a hilarious story. At the All-Star game, like 1990, one of my young came to lunch with me, and he was the day-to-day sort of manager for Gled Rice, who was playing for Charlotte at the time averaging about 24 points a game. And the entire lunch, this guy is talking about Gled Rice. And finally, Michael's getting annoyed. He said, Jeff, would you please stop talking about Glead Rice?

I'm tired of here. And he didn't stop. He just kept. And Michael was really annoyed. So Glenn, the next day, set the all-time record in the All-Star game. He scored 24 points in one quarter. And I think he got the MVP.

But he had the unfortunate game after the break. Charlotte played Chicago. Okay, so Michael took Glead on. Glenn 6-8, Michael 6. Glenn took 15 shots. How many did he hit? I mean to Michael Jordan again. You're fired.

He said he's hard enough to play. when you don't get them mad. And so I think that those guys were intimidating. So I think John, as a highly intelligent man, found a system or a philosophy that took the other team out of the game and made them know that just getting across half court, that could be an accomplishment. We're going to be pressing full court, 48 minutes a game.

You know, I'm going to be bringing guys off the bench. You played a lot of players. And while some people would say it was intimidating like that's a negative, I would say, who doesn't want it intimidate your opponent? Who doesn't want to think, have your opponent think that they can't beat you? That's the ultimate goal in sports, is to be so good that your opponent doesn't even think they could beat you before they step on quarter on the field. David Falk's a sports agent. He calls John Thompson his hero, and there's a new John Thompson autobiography called,

I Came As a Shadow, written by Jesse Washington, who I know. It was released last week. and David called me and said, hey, I want to talk about the most important person in my life, so we bring him on our Saturday podcast. More with David Falk after this. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clipper Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, the Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me,

or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jek. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84's big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it.

And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely.

And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free, Our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. You know, it's interesting, David. You have a smaller client list now as you've, you've, you know, you let that wind down. And there's, you know, that that's a business of lots of travel and lots of negotiation. and you certainly are on the Mount Rushmore of all-time sports agents of all sports in America. Scott Boros and you are the two that really come to mind, won a baseball and you in basketball.

When you had Michael, it was a different time where guys like you that were creative. And when I think of accountants and agents, I don't think creativity. But I do, frankly, with you. I'd love you to take my audience when you started representing Michael. that there was ground that had never been broached before. And things that have never been discussed or thought about that are now, everybody's just kind of following in line to what happened earlier. Take my audience back.

Sure. To one of the first deals you did with Michael that may have been viewed as outrageous, but now is understood as just protocol and agent basketball, Nike or Puma business. Okay. So when Michael came out of North Carolina as a junior in the spring of 1984, the last Carolina player represented before him was James Worthy, who was the number one pick in the draft by the Lakers. I found James to the highest shoe deal in the history of the NBA,

even though he played on the same team as Kulim and Magic. He made more money than both of them. And Michael came out, and he is the star of the Olympics. played behind an international audience, I don't know, a billion people. And he dominated the Olympics. No one ever saw the Michael Jordan in college. They saw the Olympics because Coach Smith had a very disciplined system. I mean, as did Bobby Knight, who was the Olympic coach,

but Michael just completely dominated. And no one knew how good a player he'd be, but they knew he was going to be very exciting. So what I wanted for Michael, in 1984, having been in the business for 10 years and been the junior agent for two megastars in tennis, Arthur Ash and Stan Smith, I wanted Michael to try to be perceived as a player who could break the limitations of being a team sport athlete and be treated like a tennis player or a golfer.

And the very first thing I wanted, I wanted to have his own line of shoes and clothes from an athlete. And Michael wanted to go with Adidas. we actually represented he had died, the company was in disarray and we tried to put him with Nike and most of the companies looked at me like I was on crack.

He said, David, how at earth could you expect us to sign an unproven rookie to have his own line when the best players in the world, Kareem doesn't have his own line, Magic doesn't have his own line, Bird doesn't have his own line, Isaiah doesn't have his own line. There's no

way that anyone's dumb enough to give you your own line. Well, Nike was a small company at a time. Yes, yes. And I become very close with the head of marketing, Rob Strasser, and I told him, look, Michael wants to go with Adidas. You know, Detus isn't a bad place right now. If you have any prayer, he doesn't even know who Nike is.

You know, and if I could do it aside, you know, it amuses me to death a visionary in getting coaches to wear shoes. No question. I give him his due. you know he is missed that michael has given more credit for the role he played in nike signed michael now i never discussed michael's deal with sonny for one second ever never had one discussion with him um and i i have no doubt that sonny suggested to nike as their internal basketball guy that jorga would be a good guy to sign

that'd be like me telling nike two years ago look you probably never heard of this guy but i'm going to recommend this guy from duke from south Carolina named Zion Williamson. And I really think that if you really go out on him, this guy could be a pretty good player. Or, you know, coming out in 2003, it was taking Nike. Look, there's this high school kid from Akron. You might not have ever heard him.

His name is LeBron James. I think if you really take a flyer, he can really do. I mean, Michael's national player of the year, so to recommend him to sign wasn't exactly a sleeper. And despite Sonny's entreaties and George Ravling, who was the assistant coach Her Olympic team, Michael didn't want to get on the damn plane to go see Nike. But the point is we said to Nike, if you want to sign this guy, you've got to treat him like a tennis bar.

He needs to have his own line of shoes and clothes. And that was, nobody else was remotely willing to do that except a small company in Boston called Spot Belt. Today, when Isaiah Williamson comes out or Anthony Davis comes out or any of these really talented players, LeBron, it's automatic that they expect it. Back then, but he came to me called Ohio Art that makes a famous product called Edge Sketch.

They also make, they also make colonies foam backboards, cardboard backboards that, you know, the little kids could dunk on with the Nerf Ball. And they had Dr. Jay

and Larry Bird, and they said, we'd like to sign Michael. Happy to talk about it. Make me an offer, you know, multi, multi-year,

six figures a year. And they said, David, you've got to be out of your mind. we have Dr. J for $10,000 a year plus royalties, and we are bird for $50,000 and no royalties. These are two of the best players in the game. Dr. Jay is like the guru of dunking.

He's won a title in Philadelphia. I'm a huge Dr. Jay fan. I'm a huge Larry Bird fan. I know both kinds extremely well. But if you want Michael, it's going to cost you six. And a year later, they came back, and they signed it for six figures on a multi-year deal. So there was no precedent in basketball.

Players just weren't marketed. Magic Johnson, for the best of my knowledge, who was one of the most, you know, engaging, charismatic and talented players ever played a game. He won a national title. He won an NBA title as a rookie. He won the rookie to the year. He won the MVP.

I mean, the guy had a Hall of Fame career in one year. The only deal that I was aware of on a national basis he had his first five years, was a one-year deal with seven-up with a group of other athletes, including John McAro. So there was no marketing in basketball. And Michael broke all those rules. In many ways, John Thompson did the same thing in coaching.

You know what I mean? John Thompson, when I first signed him in 1982, so pull you mind, the Big East coaches had a group ball deal with McGregor. Each coach got $3,000 a year to use a McGregor ball. As I told you, they didn't like going on a trip to the other coaches. you know, he's an individualistic personality. He's different.

There's no one like John. He's an iconic personality. I took about the group deal with McGregor, and I saw him at Wilson for $25,000 a year. He made more money by himself than the entire Big East. And it really wasn't that great of a deal because that year illustrated with Patrick Ewing and a guy named Rodel Reagan and Olson Ball. Reagan flipped the ball so you couldn't see it. and just the cover of that alone.

But my point is, you know, I try to look at John because he had such an iconoclassic personality, and I tried to, you know, he had deals with Transamerica. He had a great deal with Transamerican marketing where it said my best teams have no starter. You know, it doesn't matter who starts. It's who do you really need at the end of the game in crunch time. And he had deal with milk.

He had a bunch of different, you know, endorsement deals. And he did a lot of speaking. he was an amazingly captivating public speaker. I could listen. I love to talk, as you know, and John used to tease me and said, David, some people make their living with their hands, some people make to live with their legs. You know, you make your living with your mouth.

But I could sit and listen to him for hours because he just had such an amazing, he was like a Ph.D. in human nature. He really understood people. Ironically, most people didn't understand him, and they viewed him, you know, almost through a, stereotype. And then when he stopped, you know, in 1999, I went into media of all things. He was kind of warm and likable and funny. Exactly, because he didn't have to put on his coaching suit. He wasn't taking care of 18-year-old

kids who had problems in their families or the girlfriends or in school. He could just relax and just be himself. And so when people said, why wasn't he on the radio? Because the responsibilities of coach, the highlight of that. Think about this. Patrick Ewing was the and probably the biggest player of all time to play there. John has acknowledged he thought Patrick was the greatest player. Freaking enormous for Patrick. At the end of Patrick's junior year, John called me one day out of the blue and said to be,

what do you think of Patrick leaving school? And he said, really, why? You know, I've never met him, but I read in the Washington Post that he would graduate. His mother died in his junior year, and I think it's really important to honor the promise. And he said, that's the best you got. He said, David, the guy's going to make a million dollars a year

for a million dollars and get as much education as he wants. And I wasn't ready for this. I just thought he was having a lot. This is, I said, well, John, you have to understand. Houston's going to have the number one pick in the draft, and they're going to draft the local guy, Akim Olajuwon. He's going to be the first pick in the draft. Why do you want to come out early at that level of talent

if you're not going to be the number one pick? And he said, what if he gets hurt? You buy insurance. So we got into an intense, and when I say intense, you know what if you ask the only time that he was intimidating to me that was it he was screaming at me and cursing me like a truck driver because he wanted him to come out and i thought it was a bad idea so you got it's like a movie you got instead of the agent trying to get the kids to come out the coach wants to come out and the agent's trying to keep him and john is angry me and finally said to me

david he said to me i thought you were my friend i'm asking you for advice and you're telling you think I want to hear, which is for him to stay in school. But you're wrong. I don't want it to stay in school. I don't want the responsibility if he gets hurt or doesn't have a good year. His mother died. He's got to help his family. And I said to him, John, I'm going to tell you three things.

Number one, the money will never go down for a franchise center. Number two, he's not going to get amnesia. Forget to play basketball at age 21. And number three, you can cover the risk of injury with a disability insurance policy. Now, my advice is to keep in school. but I don't want to hear any more abuse, so do whatever the freak you want, but I'm telling you. And it was the most disturbed in my life with someone. I mean, it was very unpleasant.

John recommended he signed with us, and we got him the deal. Who did the next? He had a $5 million signing bonus in his contract. Elijah wanted the whole worky deal with $7 million. And so, like to $5 million. I've never seen a check for $1 million. I mean, and Patrick Graves for the check, he said, give me that damn check, and I turn it over. I wrote four deposit only.

I made him sign it, and I took it back to Washington, and I got off the train, and went straight to a full walnut plaque. I kept one for myself, gave one to Patrick, dear John. And so, you know, he was a guy that brought out that you've got to be at your peak at all times, not because he's intimidating. Always had to be your best categorically. He was my so many times, so many different environments. And I quote him, like he had a million, in the first chapter of my book, You know, John had a, if you're his friend, and you need help, that if I was on the Titanic and it hit the iceberg and they were lower, the first draft choice would be John Thompson. Because I know that while he may fuss at me and he may, I know the guy is going to be rowing with me.

He's my friend, you know, he's my hero, and I was an amazing friend. I'll tell you another one. I'll tell you another great story. So we had never represented when we meet Johnny Dawkins. Yeah. And kept interrupting me to ask these crazy questions. about and Johnny just tuned out and so Mike and for meeting at the time they call John put him on hold don't tell him at lunch find me because I want to know to do but

David's in a meet I didn't know he called and John was like sister Johnny Johnny points to me this is my guy if you go with this guy he'll really take care of he turns to my boss Donald he's there for like a minute and I was so embarrassed it was beyond belief I said to Coach K is our first ever Duke guy we had tried and Mike looked at me like he said David the human human being alive if he didn't want to do it on his own, so, you know, relax. And we did sign Johnny. A great run. John just was special. Nobody. Nobody. David Falk, sports agent. There's a new John Thompson autobiography. I came as a shadow by Jesse

Washington released last week. John, the legend iconic John Thompson passed away August 30th earlier this year. This is our Saturday podcast. We're just sort of wetting your appetite for the book and the stories. David, happy holiday season for you and your family. As you get a pick and choose when you want to work, I'm not in that space now. And when people listen to this, I'll probably be on a ski hill with my son and my daughter getting ready to come back to work. And I just want to thank you for taking time for us today. Larry King, you're really talented. I really, really enjoy the time we spend together, and I hope we can do it again and wish you. Thank you, David. Thank you.

Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games.

This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to.

Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. On The Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down,

and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to Look Back at it on the IHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.