The Herd with Colin Cowherd - UFC, David Stern, Michael Jordan, NBA season, where Colin was right and wrong

Episode Date: May 11, 2020

Colin explains why it was a great weekend for the UFC, laughs at conspiracy theorists while defending David Stern, explains Michael Jordan's mentality throughout his career, and talks about why he disagrees with Shaquille O'neal's comments on canceling the NBA season. Also, Colin discusses where he was right and wrong over the weekend. Guests include Doug Gottlieb, David Falk, Tim Grover, and Jamal Crawford. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

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Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played. with and just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to listen to learn the hard way on the iha radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast what's up guys

this is clivert taylor the fourth and on my podcast the clivert show i'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff like being an internet famous referee we're in the middle of a game this linebacker this linebacker walks up to me he goes a ref my mom wants you to wave at her what Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Rhett, my mama want you to weigh better. What? Hey, Miss Parker.

Listen to the Clippers show on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for listening to The Heard Podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday from 12 to 3 Eastern, 9 to noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and FS1. Find your local station for the herd at Fox Sports Radio.com or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app by, searching herd.

You're listening to Fox Sports Radio. Here we go on a Monday, live in Los Angeles. This is The Herd, wherever you may be. And however you may be listening, we are live in Los Angeles on Iheart Radio, Fox Sports Radio, and FS1. Loaded show today, David Falk, Michael Jordan's agent, super agent. Many said he and David Stern and Michael ran the league. joins us next hour.

Tim Grover, Michael Jordan's long-time, excellent trainer. I was a trainer to Kobe, was a trainer to Dee Wade. He'll be joining us next hour as well. One hour from now, Colin Wright, Colin Wrong. So we are packed. I just got a text this morning from Bill Simmons. He wants to be on this week, and we want to have him on this week, so that'll be great. And Joy Taylor's joining me.

Joy, how are you? I'm great. It was a great weekend. Happy Mother's Day. It's all the moms. Yes. Everyone had a great day. Uh-huh.

It's awesome. It was an awesome day. So there are a lot of different ways to go on The Last Dance. I got a sneak peek. I got to watch both episodes early. I went and watched both again. That's how fond I am of it. One of my favorite moments was Michael Jordan and David Stern

shooting down the Michael Jordan was suspended for gambling, a rumor. This has always been a nonsense rumor. But for all you conspiracy people out there, just remember, commissioners are paid by owners. The idea that you could walk to owners. The NBA had never been this popular. All the owners were getting rich. And they were getting rich and all the valuations of their franchises were going up

because the TV ratings were massive because of Michael Jordan. With all due respect to the Orlando Magic and Rick Smith's and John Starks, the ratings were great because of Michael Jordan. that you could go to them and say, hey, we're going to suspend Michael for 18 months. Why? Nobody was bothered by it. You didn't care as a fan.

I didn't care. I was in the media. NBC didn't care. The owners didn't care. Nobody cared. I mean, media people, but they care about a lot of things we don't. And I don't even know if the media cared.

Nobody cared. So you'd walk up to the owners and go, yeah, we're going to get rid of him. Why? Because he bets while golfing. And the owners would think, Yeah, so do I. Doesn't everybody?

I'm not even good at golf. I bet golfing. Doesn't everybody? It's just absurd. Magic and Bird were gone. Michael was driving the ratings. It was making everybody rich. And the idea, the funny part about this,

the funny part about the rumors of David Stern who laughed it off and Michael laughed it off. I mean, when people just laugh about rumors, you can tell when somebody's lying. They're all just rolling their eyes at it. The idea that you'd suspend Michael for 18 months. Isn't that kind of a random number? So I'm supposed to believe David Stern called Michael. Michael, this is Commissioner Stern. You've been suspended for 18 months.

And Michael would go. So I can come back next year, halfway through it? Yes, I know that makes no sense, but I'm going to suspend you this year. And then next year, baseball is going to go on strike. And you're not going to cross the picket line and you come back. And then Michael would go, how do you know there's going to be a strike? And David would go, I don't know. It's amazing, isn't it?

It hasn't happened, but I'm predicting it. Even though nobody knows it's happening and nobody thinks it's happening, I'm predicting a baseball strike. And then we'll just let you wade back in. I mean, it's so stupid. There's two problems with conspiracy theorists. Number one, they're losers. number two is even if you give them facts, they hold on to their conspiracy theory

like they did their teddy bear when they were 20. Yeah, conspiracy theorists hold on to teddy bears at 20. The rest of us give them up at seven. It made no sense. It was the Patrick Ewing. Remember the frozen envelope rumor? This is another absurd rumor. So David Stern was this young litigator, super smart guy,

chief counsel for the NBA. Great future. In 1984, they give him. the job is NBA commissioner. And immediately he's a home run. I'm supposed to believe he's going to throw his entire professional legacy and career down the drain, seven figures, to freeze an envelope and make sure Patrick Ewing ends up with the New York Knicks. For the record, Adam Silver makes over $25 million a year, and the Knicks are horrible.

Commissioners all make seven, eight figures a year. It doesn't matter how good New York teams are. It doesn't. What is the digital growth, the television ratings growth? What is the global growth of the NBA? Global growth is a big deal. The idea that you need teams to win. If Roger Goodell was tied to the New York teams, his salary would be a third of what it is today.

The Saints, the Packers, are significantly better than New York teams in the NFL. Oklahoma City's better run than the New York teams. David Stern's going to throw his career away. That'd be like working your entire career to be an administration as a high school principal. and you're a lady and you've had a great, you go to college and you're a teacher, and then you're a vice principal, and then you become principal of a high school, very nice high school, and you've worked very hard, and then the minute you get the job, you're like, you know what I'm going to do?

I'm going to dip into a slush fund and ruin my career for an extra $7,000 every 18 months. I'm just going to dip into that and ruin my entire career. Why would you do that? You have a great career. You're going to have a pension. It's a school. Yeah, I don't know why I'd do that. That would be dumb, but I'm going to do that.

I'm sure you can find an example of a teacher that one time did that, but they're not very smart. David Stern was really smart. It's just like the death of Michael Jordan's dad. He was murdered by two creeps, two violent criminals who had robbed banks before they did that. I'm supposed to believe Michael Jordan owed somebody $35,000 in a golf debt, and they went and found two hillbillies who robbed banks and they knew his dad, rural road parked a car slept they tracked him and chape you didn't even have GPS back then you didn't have radar you didn't I mean folks you did none of this stuff my favorite part of this is the two things

about this documentary I love number one Jordan's an alpha male and in a time where anybody that's got a little alpha it's called toxic masculinity Michael's like I'm a guy I'm not apologizing for who I am this is how I work I'm tough I'm into winning if you're not I don't care about you. I so appreciate a guy not worrying about how it lands on social media. It's just refreshing to have a guy say, hey, you're either into winning or I got no use for you. It's refreshing. I got to be honest.

It's refreshing to not be consumed with how everything lands. Just here's who I am. I'm old. It's okay to be old school. It can be old school. I joke. I've been eating peanut butter and jelly. sandwiches six, seven days a week for three months.

It's not my favorite thing, but it's okay to embrace some old school mentality. We know Michael's smart. He's been a great businessman, but if he wants to go old school on that, I'm down for it. And my second favorite thing is shooting holes in a lot of nonsense. The conspiracy stuff with Michael Jordan's father's death is nonsense. Literally Tim Grover, the trainer. You know, it's this idea that Michael just, he was forced out. Tim Grover, who's on our show next hour, the trainer,

acknowledged in his book years ago. Michael told him a year out, I need a baseball body. I'm going to go play baseball. An author on one of Michael Jordan's book, he admitted last night. He said, yeah, Michael told me during the dream team, I'm going to go play baseball. And he said, when? He goes, I got to win a third championship in a row because Magic and Bird haven't done that. We know Michael's competitive.

and he goes, after that, I'm going to go play baseball. I'm worn out. We know Michael was worn out. We know he couldn't go in public. So it's just, it's been so refreshing. Michael is unapologetically old school on certain things. Not everything but certain things. I love that.

And it's been able to puncture all these nonsensical. I mean, like, there are certain things. When people come up to me, they're overwhelmingly nice. But one of the non-starters where I just will roll my eyes at people is when they throw a conspiracy theory at me. I just, I can't take, in the history of conspiracy theories, I'm sure some have been right, but I still can't find one in sports that's been right. And they're just nonsense.

And the MJ gambling stuff, he was forced to leave. Makes no sense. You have multiple people that knew he was playing baseball. And by the way, you can make an argument. He would have stayed in baseball if not for the strike. I mean, Michael was into baseball. Everybody around him was like, no, no, he's into baseball. this stuff. Like he loves baseball. You can't go to the south, have batting practice for four hours

blisters on your hands because, yeah, I was forced into baseball. If Michael was forced into baseball, he wouldn't have spent four hours in a batting cage with sores on his hands. He was into baseball. Like old school, and he's an old school soul, right? Good to have you in today, packed David Falk, MJ's agent next hour and Tim Grover, two smart guys, Jamal Crawford, star-ups by Doug Gottlieb. First of all, congratulations to the UFC. We no longer have it at the networks I work at, but I thought it was great. I bought the card.

I thought it was fantastic. It's one of the top five UFC cards ever. And some thoughts on why it was so important going forward for that sport and all of us. That is coming up. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern 9 a.m. Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the IHeart Radio app. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where sports slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room story,

their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaders to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist,

Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch.

Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth, or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person.

Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free, our heart radio app, Search learn the hard way and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th.

And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, Hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out.

Quarterback on office blue with 42. A rep, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds.

Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series

because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night bases on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing.

That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball like, after you go through a training camp with that Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Oh, yeah. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

We're all sharing more. Geico's sharing more too. The Geico Give Back, 50% credit card motorcycle policies, both current new customers last your full policy term, visit Geico.com slash give back for info and eligibility. Doug Gottlieb's around the corner. Colin right, Colin wrong, top of next hour. So a great weekend for the UFC. The fight card was unbelievably good, and I applaud them for having the courage to go back.

The NFL, this is not going to be, if you're a commissioner of a sport, a time to be timid. There's going to be athletes that get COVID. Look at your revenue. UFC said, all right, couple people, couple trainers got it, we're ready to go. It ended up being one of the best fight cards they've ever had. It was the most bet fight card they've ever. had like anything in life in life you take a big swing you have a better chance to hit a home run i thought they had a home run uh UFC also was very much on brand they're aggressive they're rebels

they're outliers they're mavericks uh and and they said listen we we're not paralyzed by perfection here if somebody gets it we get it these are great young athletes uh the percentages are beyond minimal uh that they would have serious physical repercussions We're going to go for it. And I thought it was a great card. The most amazing thing was Tony Ferguson's a champ. He got blistered by Justin Gachie in a great main event fight. Justin Gachie is now a new rock star.

You know, when you're the only thing going on in sports, I sat there and watched every second of it, and I watched Justin Gachi, and I thought, wow, we got a new star in UFC. And he is now in line to fight Khabib, who is 28-0, perhaps the greatest UFC fighter arguably ever. So we're going to have the biggest UFC pay-per-view event of all time when Justin Gaetie faces unbeaten Khabib, and I can't wait for it. But again, if you look at the people, the NFL is alpha.

NFL's like, we're going to hold the draft. A lot of people said he can't do it. They pulled it off. UFC said, we're going to go for it. We're not seeking perfection. They not only pulled it off, they hit a home run, because there is a sympathetic kind of sense that if you are willing to roll the dice on this and you can pull it off, and you know, you have a COVID patient.

Again, it could happen. These are young athletes. I think you're going to get a lot of support from the public. Remember, for any business to work, you need customers. You can open up restaurants all you want. If they don't get customers, they go out of business. So UFC had huge customers, huge pay-per-view, huge betting. NASCAR is next.

I think they'll hit it out of the park. I thought it was a great card. California said get out of here. They found Florida. Thank God we have states. We have liberal governors, conservative governors. I'm glad I live in a country with both. I don't agree with either side ever.

I'm an independent voter. But I thought Florida won and I thought the UFC won. I thought it was fantastic. Here is Joy Taylor with the news. No, no, no, no. Turn on the news. This is the herd line news. Well, Kirk Cousins is no stranger to the franchise tag

and how it can lead to a big payday. And he told ESPN that his advice for Doc Prescott right now is to look at the situation as a positive. I believe the franchise tag can be your friend. I don't think it's something to be disappointed with. I think it enables you to be well compensated and deservedly so for the upcoming season. And then I always say, you know, the cream will rise to the top.

If you're good enough, the cream's going to rise to the top. and you're going to get compensated the way you want to. And sometimes doesn't happen as quickly as you would like. But if you deserve it and you've earned it, it's going to happen. So you just got to stay the course and stay patient. And certainly in my journey, it all worked out. Well, it sure did, Kirk. He was franchised tagged twice in Washington and then got a fully guaranteed $84 million contract

with the Vikings. So if anyone, if there's anyone in the advice, I'm going to take in this situation, it's Kirk Cousins, because he worked that situation perfectly. And it hasn't worked out well for Washington the past couple years without Kirk Cousin. We all, you know, pretty much feel like we know what Kirk Cousins is at this point, but they, they've been struggling and they still don't know if they have the quarterback for the next couple years. They might be right back in the draft next year, taking another quarterback that we'll see what they have in Haskins. If you believe that Mike McCarthy is a better coach than Jason Garrett and you've added C.D. Lamb and the Giants and Redskins are still rebuilding. I mean, let's be honest. If you think about this, Joy, would you really want to sign a contract if you're down?

off of last season or potentially a much better season. It seems to me that because Dallas, if, let's say they go nine and seven or ten and six, they're not going to have the draft pick to get another quarterback. Right. So the cowboy ownership actually may be trapped much more next year. They're not trapped now with Andy Dolton. They're not. But if you really have a decent year and you go 10 and six and you're not in Justin Fields and

Justin and Trevor Lawrence are one and two picks. The truth is, DAC, franchise it this year, have a better year than this year, and you could have 90% of the leverage because nobody is going to want to give up the number one, two or three or four spot with Trevor Lawrence or Justin Fields if they need a quarterback. So, yeah, sometimes you have to take the telescope, flip it and look to the other end of it. Well, he's going to make a lot of money this year on the franchise tag as it is, but it's risk on both sides because like you said,

if DAC goes out and has an incredible year, Dallas is going to be up against it. They're not going to have a high enough draft pick to get someone new, and he's going to be the guy there. It's going to be harder to not pay him. But you also run the risk, of course, because it is National Football League. You get injured, and then that doesn't happen.

So there's plenty of risk on both sides of it, which is obviously why they'd rather work out a contract in a long-term deal. But either way, it's not the worst thing for DAC right now. So Baker-Mayfield hasn't been able to work with any of the Brown's new additions yet, but he definitely likes what he sees. He was speaking to the Brown's website,

and he praised Cleveland's front office for setting a team up to be successful next season. It's been very exciting for me. Just all the moves they're making. You know, the guys they're bringing in, obviously talented guys, but mentality-wise and with the mindset that they have, I think we're putting the right pieces together.

He also said every interaction he's had with his new head coach, Kevin Savansky, has been great. Brown signed multi-year deals with defensive then Adrian Claiborne, offensive tackle, Jack Conklin and tight end, Austin Hooper in free agency. And obviously they drafted Jedrick Wills Jr. from Alabama, 10th overall, which is a pick that we both like a lot. That was actually surprised he was still available for them. I do like all the things the Browns have done in this offseason.

Again, it just comes down to win your division first. And that division is so unpredictable right now. Well, they also, they solved their dilemma. They had bad tackles. They solved them both. If they had just made those moves, no draft, or just we get one pick in the draft, one free agent, and they got their tackles, I'd still like him as a playoff team. They don't have that many holes. They needed a coach.

They got it. They needed two tackles, address both. The rest of it, Austin Hooper's a nice get. Didn't need him. David and Joku's terrific. So to me, they had three main holes. Coach, left tackle, then right tackle. Solved them all.

After that, it's all gravy. It's all icing after that. So you have the Browns right now. Obviously, you reserve the right to change your opinion. Not going to. Not going to, but you have them as a playoff team right now. I think their personnel is great. I really do.

Listen, I've, I've drank, you know, I got involved in that last year. I'm going to go back to my original stance in life, which is I'm going to wait and see what Cleveland does before I get on any kind of van wagon. I'm going to tell you this now. I've got a little feeling, you know, call it women's intuition. They might be your new Atlanta. You know how the Atlanta Falcons like to do. I've been burned so many times for the Atlanta Falcons. From now on, I have a rule.

I only like Southern football at college because they never burn me. The SEC never burns me. It always happens to you. I always predict they're great and their SEC is always great. It never burns me. Finally, last night the last dance highlighted Michael Jordan's brief time playing baseball. He spent one season in the minors before returning to the Bulls. But his manager with the Barron's, Terry Francona,

thinks Jordan had a real chance to reach the MLB. He said with 1,500 of bats, he would have found a way to get into the major leagues. And that's not a guy that needs to say anything, you know, to boost Michael Jordan. I mean, he's won two World Series, very respected man in baseball. I actually watched that, and I thought last night,

I didn't know, I mean, I knew he played AA baseball, but when Jerry Reinsdorf acknowledges, we couldn't put him at single A. He literally, we didn't have to the press, the fans, and I'm like, People forget this. Double A baseball.

That's no joke. No, no. Yeah, that's where organizations put their stars. AAA baseball is actually a lot of old guys who are competent, but they're not really high-end, like what you would call prospects. A lot of times you put them in single-A, you get them to double A, and you can go double A to the bigs. So a lot of people have said for years,

AA has actually got more high-end talent than AAA baseball. and, you know, Jordan hit over 200, 13-game hitting streak. That's real baseball. Guys are throwing 98 miles an hour. They may not have the control of a big league pitcher, but you're talking about young, great baseball talent at AA. Way better than like high-end college baseball, which is also very good. It was honestly remarkable to see the footage of those games and people laying on their stomach,

laying on the ground under the fence just to try and see Michael George. It really is just so fascinating to see that, just to see the kids stopping him in his car in the middle of the street to pop out and get his baseball signed. It's mayhem. Yeah, I can't think of any. I'm trying to think of somebody in America now that's close to that. There's probably a musical superstar. I don't know. That press conference where he retired and they have the footage of all those reporters, I don't know.

Think how big Snoop Dogg is. And I've seen Snoop Dogg in public. People give him space. Like if Snoop dog, people are like, hey there's Snoop. He's got a little posse, but not big. And it's like Michael Jordan could not walk down the street anywhere. He couldn't drive his car. It's wild.

I don't know. It's this insane footage to see people lying on the ground, the dusty ground. Crazy. Just the sea under the fence. Yeah, joy with the news. Well, that's the news. And thanks for stopping by. The Hurd Lie News.

Doug Gottlieb, joining us now. sponsored by Mercedes Ben's the best or nothing. Weekdays after our show, Fox Sports Radio. We play tennis this weekend, not very well, by the way, but tennis clubs are opening up here in California. So let's talk about the baseball career. I watched it and I thought to myself, listen, I gave Tebow a chance. I gave Tebow some love and he's batting 137 in AAA. Is it possible that Michael was a little bit better than we all gave him credit for? I guess. I mean, what is Tito Francona going to say? He sucked, you know? You know, everybody, I mean, he was, you know, he needed Joe Boo to help make curveballs. I mean, he's a great athlete.

It's an interesting aside in the middle of his career. I just, look, I thought it was pretty brave of them. It was the elephant in the room. They had to tackle the gambling thing. I'm not sure they gave us a real clear, totally balanced look other than this is ridiculous, this is ridiculous. It's ridiculous. Oh, so the gambling thing, where do you land on that? Look, it's really hard for me to believe that a story that big could be this big a conspiracy and kept quiet this long,

so I tend to believe that he wasn't suspended. On the other hand, it wasn't that crazy at the time, right? It wasn't just that he liked to gamble. It's that Michael Jordan was famous for not wanting to pay his gambling debt. That's the other part. Didn't want to pay his gambling debts. And then his dad was killed by two years. young guys who did not have any sort of violent criminal history, if I remember correct.

No, one was a bank robber. Yeah, but it was just weird. Like, okay, he's killed beside a road. And these two, were they connected? I mean, look, it's, it, like vacillates. Are you the Jordan documentary or you're the last dance documentary? It's Jordan documentary, I think there was some depths that was missing there. So look, they did tackle it.

They did flesh it out. They had David Stern on the record before he died saying, you know, I did not suspend him. And, you know, they kind of laughed about it. But there was all the famous stories about the gambling. There's the stories about him not paying his gambling debt. And there was his dad, you know, like being stopped inside a road, which is really, really sad. And odd, I do I believe, I do not believe that he was spent it because of gambling. but I'm not sure.

I am sure that was not a clear and fair depiction. It was basically anybody who wrote this was just trying to make headlines. And I don't think that's accurate. Well, but if you are a journalist, I couldn't write that column without some information. Like, even as a talk show host, to go to that level to say, I think it's real at the time it happened, I would have to have information. Like, I can have an opinion about a football team stinking. but once the allegations are racism, physical abuse of somebody, murder, you should be blamed for it, I do believe you have to have a stronger correlation with information.

I think that's the knock is nobody, I mean, listen, it would be the lead story in every paper if it was true. Nobody could connect anybody since then. Well, that's also, though, Colin, I tweeted out before I popped down with you. There's five people that they should have interviewed. Three of them are no longer with us, right? Text winner they should have interviewed. Obviously, Chuck Daly, you wish they could have interviewed Chuck Daly. David Stern, you wish they would have been even more in depth on David Stern.

Obviously, he's not with us. But how did they not talk to Peter Vessi? I mean, Sonny Baccaro, if you're going to have the Nike story, which they had in the last one, how do you not talk to Sunday Baccaro? And then how do you not talk to Peter Vessi, for people who don't know, he was Woj before there was Woj. know, a New York Post columnist who was on NBC breaking stories. Yeah.

And you could question his sources at the time and why he fell out of favor. But at the time, he was Adrian Wojianowski. And by not talking to him, it's like, okay, were these rumors founded? Was this discussed? You know, were these, or any of these journalists who wrote the articles. Why did you write this? Did you have any proof? Did you have any facts?

Instead, it was just, let's put a headline and then laugh about it and say how bad media is, which, you know, we're in the time of media bashing, even though we're in the media. Yeah, no, I mean, I never bought into it because I, I've been, you know, the frozen envelope thing makes no financial sense to me why David Stern in 84 gets the job, and at 85 is going to roll the dice and blow his career up. I always believe it's a follow the money situation where why would David Stern say you're suspended, but by the way, you can come back next year, middle of the season. It doesn't make any sense to me.

I always follow the money. If people say it's not the sex, it's the sex. If they say it's not the money, it's the money. It wouldn't, you know, commissioners are paid by owners. People, Michael was so big. He left the league and they lost 50. It's just incredible. 50% of the ratings.

And I also think that we've always sort of understood people gamble a lot more than they admit. Yeah. And nobody was, I mean, Michael Jordan bet a lot in the golf course. It was like, eh, I do too, and I'm terrible. So anyway, let me. I played golf with you. You don't gamble because you don't finish after the 14th hole. You're done.

You're like, let's go get a cocktail. Yeah, I get very tired. We just had this discussion Saturday. Yes, I can't do 18 holes. I can't. You can't. Got the ADD kicking in. Yeah.

Now, let's go to this. What about Scotty Pippin? You know, I am so mixed on Scotty Pippen, episode to episode. Now, now he doubles down on, I still wouldn't have come in. And I'm like, ah, that's not the answer I wanted. Where are you on Pippin? Terrible teammate. Terrible team.

I think, like, he was a sympathetic figure on the first weekend. And I told people like, do you not remember what happened when Jordan was gone? And people apparently have forgotten what happened when Jordan was gone. So now you, and look, Jordan got criticized by some of our brother in the media for saying Scotty was selfish when, you know, Jordan was making $30 million. But Scotty was. This is a pattern for Scotty. on the floor not selfish off the floor selfish in terms of you're not going to go into a game because the play's not for you like what and then now you wonder well why would the why would the bulls not change his contract well i don't know if you're the guy who bailed on the team and and they did they tried to clean it up and like well he came back and had a good series now he didn't they lost the mixing game seven like that that doesn't that's not fixing things he played better the next game and dunked on patrick doing and stood over him but they they didn't they didn't fix things that completely

disintegrated his leadership capabilities and that's why they fell apart the next season. So you factor in that along with the last year he's not going to get surgery because he wants to have a good summer. The part about Jordan that I know people

might not like his leadership style, but the other thing that was missing when he left the NBA, like everyone points out when LeBron leaves a team, how it falls apart. You pointed out smartly when Jordan leaves the league fell apart. And the reason the league fell apart was some of their most talented players,

Rashid Wallace, who was a top five talent league. Yes. And he wasn't locking in at practice. He wasn't locking in at some regular games. He was just super, super talented. But Alan Iverson didn't want to practice. Or when he did, he would show up, hung over, late, a little bit drunk still. Like, that was the deal with AI.

And what I find is that the line that Jordan had last night that won it for me was, I didn't ask anybody to do some I wasn't willing to do myself. That's what leadership is. And the fact that he brought it, maybe not every day in practice, but he was there. And when it was time to compete, he would compete in practice. He was, you know, yeah, he was a competitiveness junkie. And it wouldn't just turn it on and off for games. He worked and worked.

You're going to talk to Tim Grover, right? Like he went from being the most ridiculous athlete to a guy who he built his body in a way to withstand punishment. That's work ethic. That's practice. That's the time off the basketball floor. That's the diet. That's the thing to LeBron James done. But the desire to bring it every day in practice and not quit on your team and play through injury, play through fatigue, that's what separates him.

And I thought it was, I thought it was really telling for who Scotty Pippen really was. and the real reason the Bulls weren't totally all in them. Let's just move mountains. I mean, look, the salary cap was different too, but the idea of when I'm going to move mountains for Scotty Pippen when he quit on the team because the play wasn't run his way and then he won't get surgery at the appropriate time and said he waits the entire offseason.

Ask him, and I think a lot of America, especially basketball, dude's like, that is not a good teammate. It's funny. I covered Scotty for a couple years in Portland. He was a great player. I never thought he had leadership skills. I thought he was a great player. and the longer he played for the Bulls and Michael was gone,

for about a year it worked. And then by the start of the second year, it was a mess. Even Phil Jackson said, we were just a mess. Leadership's hard, as Michael Jordan's pointed out. Leadership is hard.

Troy Akeman. Troy Aikman has a lot of enemies when he played for the Cowboys. He was a great leader. No, no question. I mean, look, my dad used to always tell me, like, look, when a Bill Parcells leaves a team, that team is usually good for one year. Yep.

Because there's a carryover of leadership, and then there's a certain amount of fun and freedom because the dictator's gone. Yeah. And that's what happened with the Bulls when he retired, right? There was a carryover in the leadership, and they were having fun because Jordan, there was a bunch of other shots,

and everybody's having a good time. And then all of a sudden you're like, when you hit adversity, that's when you need that guy who every day is in your, you know what, at practice, driving you to be better, forcing you, and doing it himself. And like, you know, I'm not sitting here and tell you that Jordan won every win sprint,

but I would challenge you to find other superstar players from the last 20 years competing and winning in win sprint. That's not what guys do. And I think that's the best part that comes from this documentary. Yeah. By the way, we got about a minute left. What did you make of Adam Silver really flipping his tenor in the last month? Friday, he comes out after my show and basically says our CBA is not building.

for an expanded pandemic. I mean, I thought his tenor totally changed. He was not as pro player. He kind of, it sounded like to me, Adam Silver wants a league and realizes these players don't quite understand. The money tree branches are falling off this thing by the week. Well, also, just the idea of, hey, we can recapture the imagination of the world if we can play basketball.

And it won't be perfect. It won't be how it's always been. It won't be the glitz and glamour of these beautiful arenas and whatever. But people will watch. You know, I mean, that's the thing. Look at this documentary. Like, it's not a perfect documentary. It's not even really a true documentary, right?

It's a lot of promotion piece in it. But people are watching and they're in love with Michael Jordan again because it's the only thing on. Same thing happened with the Tiger King. So, look, I think, I think. think that's and and also I think this is a little bit more like who Adam Silver is behind the scenes whereas publicly he is very much pro player but they got a mess on their hands right and I said on my show I understand that Goodell gets the benefit of not having his season during the pandemic as of yet but I do think that his heavy handedness of hey nobody's going to speak

about this everything's coming from the league works better than Adam Silver who's allowed his players to have freedom and they've said all kinds of different things and they've gotten off of message. The only NBA message should be is we're jumping in the bit to get a chance to play for the world to see us play basketball. The second they open up the doors, we're all going to be in there. We're going to be safe as possible. That's it.

You know, the problem is if they cancel the season, they have all the arena deals and all the TV deals and everything gets up in the air for next year if they push everything back. But I do think that Adam Silver understands they're better off getting some hoop in in the summer that people will fall back in love with if they weren't in love with the NBA because it'd be the best thing on. By the way, advantage back to the owners if we don't have an NBA season because the revenue dries up.

So players can be concerned. I get it. But the advantage in a coronavirus or a pandemic goes back to the wealthiest. They have the most assets, capital, and leverage. So for the players, I think it behooves them to try to play, even though I get the health concerns. We got to go. He's Doug Gottlieb.

Great stuff. Good talking to you, bud. Any time, but. Coming up next, I disagree strongly with Shaq. That's coming up. America's ready to get back to work, but to win in the new economy, you need every advantage to succeed. Smart companies run on NetSuite by Oracle,

the world's number one cloud business system. Receive your free guide right now at netsuite.com slash herd. NetSuite.com slash H-E-R-D. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific. Last night, a blown call changed the game. This morning, the Internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations. with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark.

Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross,

because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff.

Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, ref, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Where's she at?

Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Cliverts show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? This Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game.

His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick.

Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the, iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Shaquille O'Neal said they should scrap the season because of the virus. He said it doesn't matter. You know, it'll have an asterisk. And to that, I say, in the history of the Academy Awards, has there ever been a winner

with a bad ending? It doesn't exist. There's never been a great movie made with a bad ending. there have been hundreds of so-so movies that have really interesting endings and we walk out of the theater and go, that's a good movie, and it's not really a good movie. It's got a great ending.

Usual suspects had a great last 15 minutes. I would argue it's a B movie, but the ending was fantastic. It's an A-plus ending. So people are like, you say usual suspects, or people are like, whoa, great movie. Now, Silence of the Lamb is a great movie. You know, Godfather, a good.

A platoon, those are great movies. Usual suspects, it's okay. Great ending. Why do I bring this up? Because it doesn't matter. We don't. Historically, the Spurs won a title in 1999. They only had 50 games.

There's no asterisk. LeBron's first title in Miami. Strike short in season. Nobody cares. Meanwhile, the Montreal Expos are the greatest baseball team. Man, they were great. Do you remember the year that they had a work stoppage and they shut the season down and the expos were the best team? Yeah, nobody remembers it and nobody cares because the ending.

There was none. If the expos would have won and the first six months of the season, there was a work stoppage. We would talk about it. But we don't because they were great early and had no ending. Nobody wins the Academy Award on a great movie, really bad last 16 minutes. It doesn't work that way. You know, it's funny, we look back at LeBron's championship in Cleveland when he won with the Cavs. Remember that seven game series?

And it's remembered very fondly where LeBron had the block and Kyrie had the shot. And people remember that and they think, oh, what a great finals. It was awful. Here are the average. These are the margins of victory in the first six games of that series. 15, 33, 30, 11, 15, and 14. Three of the games were over in the first quarter. But it was a great last six minutes.

The LeBron blocked, the Kyrie jumper, and we're all like, oh, what a series. It was a series of blowouts, double-digit games, huge swings, games over end of the first quarter. And so I don't think we're going to say if LeBron won and he won because the games were played at Disney World, meaning LeBron James won a title with no home court advantage. He didn't play a home game. I'm going to hold that against LeBron? I'm going to go, Michael George, 20 years from now, you'll say LeBron James was so good.

He wants won a title in a pandemic with no home playoff games. That will be the narrative. Not, I can't believe he got the break of in a pandemic playing in the middle of Florida. That will not be the argument. So, and I will say this, I do worry that timing is ever, everything. UFC went out this weekend and the public totally responded to it. Michael Jordan's documentary, the most alpha basketball player of our lives, the public has responded to it. They're doing polls on do you like Michael more or less? Like 90% of the people are like, I like him more.

Alpha is working. Fear is not. And so I worry if the NBA doesn't play and baseball starts up and NASCAR goes and UFC goes, the NBA looks like. like prima don't care about the fans. That I worry about. That imaging, that narrative, if everybody else goes and they don't, I don't think's great for the league. And I think Adam Silver knows that smartly that if we can get this puppy in, let's get it in. Because the revenue tree, branches are falling off it. So I think if you can have a season, the virus will determine it, right, and the medical professionals will determine it. I don't think the NBA should be worried about needing, you know, 10,000 tests. Go get them. We understand.

that. We understand aviation, sports, entertainment, politicians. There are certain fields of firemen, cops, food service workers. Get a test. Nobody's going to hold it against you. If everybody in your community that was a fireman or a cop had a test and you couldn't get access, you'd be like, well, they're firemen or cops. We understand it. We're all sitting home. We get it. We're all sitting home. And most of us don't have to go back to work. So those that do, we understand they need tests. I don't think anybody will hold that against the NBA. I really don't. Colin Wright, Colin wrong next hour, plus Tim Grover,

Michael Jordan's longtime trainer, David Falk, MJ's agent. They will both be stopping by. That's good. Plus Bill Simmons, we're trying to get him this week. David Spade, the comedian's going to be on this week. You know, he's done a great job on that show he's doing the digital platforms. I mean, they've lights out. They've just decided we're not doing Trump jokes.

Everybody else is doing it. We're just going to do comedy. and I find myself watching all of his digital stuff. All of it. It's very sticky. It gets me in. Whether you're working from home or working on your fitness, you want to hear your music, not your roommates.

Raycon, wireless earbuds, 15% off. Go to buy Raycon.com slash herd, herd. One more herd? The herd streams 24 hours a day, seven days a week within the I-Hard radio app. Search Hurd to listen live or on demand whenever you'd like. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost.

its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them.

Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kier Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with social. So many incredible guests. I'm talking.

Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses.

Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person.

Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Cliver Taylor the Fourth.

And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff, like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue of 42.

Hey, rep, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? This Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron.

heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series

because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us, on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing.

That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, I said. You figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ah, here we go. Oh, hour two. What an hour it's going to be. David Falk, MJ's agent, Tim Grover, MJ's trainer, both joining us live in Los Angeles. This is The Herd, wherever you may be and however you may be listening, IHeart Radio, Fox Sports Radio, and FS1. Big hour. Colossal hour. What up, Joy Taylor, how are you? I'm great. I feel like I've never related. to anyone more in my life

than watching these Jordan docks. I don't know if that sounds arrogant that I really relate to Michael Jordan. Doesn't sound arrogant. I do though. I like, I feel like people are conflicted about how they're supposed to feel about the way that he is with his teammates.

And I'm like, yeah, I totally get it. How could you be any other way? Yeah, I don't, I don't. That doesn't mean you and I think were Michael Jordan. It means he is sharing a belief system that you and I relate to. which is... Well, I think I'm Michael Jordan, but yeah.

Life is not easy. Overcome crap. Stop whining. I'm never going to ask you to do anything I wouldn't do. Get over it. One of my least favorite things is like victimhood. There are real victims. You know, orphans, burn victims.

You know, I've told my daughter this before if she complains. I'll be like, oh, you're a victim. You see the house? Victim? Once you're I grew up? Your mom grew up? We're not victims. So I think you and I, I think a lot of people in America, they appreciate.

It's shown how difficult, even Michael Jordan's life was. Lots of obstacles. Middle of his career, dad's murdered. Come on, those are real world problems. Like, those are real problems. Michael overcame all of them. I think it's a testament to strong. And let's just get into right and wrong.

And I'll talk about that. Right and wrong. Here we go on Monday. Where Colin was right. The UFC, much like Michael Jordan, very much out. UFC has had nothing but a fight. The boxing people didn't like it. The late John McCain threw it off cable,

and Dana White has got no interest listening to his critics. He went Alpha. He said, we're moving it to Florida, and I don't give a rip what ESPN thinks. We're doing it. And they did it, and they hit it out of the park. If you are paralyzed by the crisis, you're not built to run a network,

and you're not built to run a sport. You just have to manage it. We lose 47,000 people a year to suicide. We manage it. It's awful. But Dana White has said from the very beginning, we're not stopping our sport. We're going to be incredibly careful. We're going to test everybody four to five times a week.

But life has to go on at some point. He led the charge. Congratulations. It was a great card with a great number one fight. terrific job of the announcing team set a record for sports bets on the UFC. Where Colin was wrong. The New England Patriots have five primetime games on TV according to the schedule makers. How?

They're not a top 10 team next year to watch. Jared Stinnem and no weapons? What? Are the league executives watching the league I'm watching? I want to watch the Cleveland Browns. I want to watch Joe. Joe Burrow, the fact that the Patriots without Brady got five prime time games. I'll make another prediction.

There'll be some of the lowest prime time games. After maybe the first time you watched Jared Stidham be average. That shocked me. I figured Brady gone, buck games on, Belichick and guys off the TV screen. But nope, the max you can have is five. They got five. Where Colin was right. Jay Glazer went public with something we've been.

been saying for probably a year. Big Ben doesn't work out in the off season. He's the anti-Russell Wilson. He's the anti-Tom Brady. He's the anti-Drew Breeze. And this is why I have questions about a 38-year-old Big Ben coming back and just be humming like he worked out all last season. This has been a rumor I've heard for years. I've gotten at source and finally confirmed by Jay Glazer last week who said, you know, Big Ben's idea of a workout in the off-season is a yoga class and some beers. Finally, Jay Glazer reporting what I had heard for years, which is Big Ben, cross your fingers if he's in shape. That's not what he is in the offseason.

Where Colin was wrong. Cam Newton got over himself a little and acknowledged last week, according to a report, he's willing to be a backup. One of the knocks I've heard from league executives, and Greg Popovich says this all the time, I'm not going to draft you until you get over yourself. One of the knocks on Cam, he's never kind of gotten over being Cam. But for Cam to go out and say, okay, I'll be a backup. Like James Winston's like, I'm going to be a backup.

Multiple teams showed interest. Saints, really good organization, said, all right, we'll give you a run. Cam's jersey sales, by the way, are not top 10 in the league. I think he thinks he's a bigger star than he is. And right now, if it's a backup job, it's a foot in the door. It's a foot in the door for a team like a Pittsburgh or whoever that may need a quarterback eight games into the season. Where Colin was right?

We've always felt that Miami had to draft Tua, that he had a star quality. And even if Tua only played two or three years, the merchandise sales, his ability to sort of synthesize that organization, well, Tua now is a star day one. The home Miami Dolphin jersey is the number one seller in the league. And the road Miami Dolphin jersey is the number two seller in the league. There's a quality to Tua that Joe Burrow, I don't think has. He has a star quality that is hard to put your arms around. But we really always felt Miami has to draft him.

Even if it doesn't work, he's going to get that. Miami's distracted. They got the beaches. They got the shopping. Miami's always, when you look out your window and see aqua water, it's a distraction. Miami needs stars, not just a good football team. And I think they have it with two up. Where Colin was right.

We've always said the NFL's pretty cutthroat. They see their league as a TV show and a real estate office. What did they do? New schedule. They're going to play on Christmas Day. Yep, Drew Breeze, Saints, Vikings Christmas Day. Cutthroat. Zoh has been sort of a gentleman's agreement.

You know what, they're good guys. No, the NFL finally said we're not giving America's number one family holiday to the NBA. Why are we giving it to the NBA? And so they scheduled a Friday afternoon game on Christmas. And for the record, if the Saints are as good as I think and the Vikings are as good as they think, and I think they're both going to win their division. That's going to get a monster number, and the NBA will get very, very small numbers.

Where Colin was wrong. I said multiple times in the last couple of years, I think USC football is kind of a dead program and needs to make a head coaching change, even though I like Clay Hilton. They, and nobody's quite sure why this is, some are saying the virus is making kids recruit, stay closer to home,

but Southern California kids now are over, signing with USC football. They replaced their defensive coordinator. They brought in Dante Williams, the number one West Coast recruiter from Oregon. He's now a Trojan. They are having an unbelievable recruiting class, top three to top five in the nation. I thought the energy was gone. I thought the program felt like it was just spinning out of control.

But this new staff, Dante Williams, and again, more kids have signed early this year than the last five years. years. Something about the virus staying close to family. Southern California kids are back into USC. Where Colin was right? We've always defended Jimmy Garoppolo, thought it was nonsense that he took heat for losing the Super Bowl, and Richard Sherman came out last week and said it's foolish to blame him. He said he doesn't play defense. That was our bigger factor. He is now the second high profile 49er didn't have to to come out publicly and say it's a joke. Jimmy G for the records 21 and 5 as a and led and outplayed Patrick Mahomes until the fourth quarter.

This stuff is nonsense. Where Colin was right. Last week, midweek, the NFL announced the past interference replay is officially mercifully over. It was garbage. I hated it. It was an overreaction to the Saints. For some reason, the league always feels like it's got to protect the Saints.

Listen, great franchise. well run top to bottom. This was a classic overreaction to one really bad call. The idea that lost the game for the Saints, excuse me, but the game went to overtime, and the Saints had the ball in overtime. Isn't that the knock on the overtime rule that a team can get the overtime kick

and never have to give it back? The Saints had the ball at home, couldn't move, couldn't stop the Rams. the replay, pass interference replay, was ridiculous. And the NFL, they're not even going to hold a vote on it because nobody would vote for it. And the officials, in their own way, protested it all season long, as they should have.

David Volk, MJ's former agent. Is he his current agent? I don't know. I don't know who would negotiate stuff for Michael right now in his shoe stuff. He'll be joining us next. Can't wait. Fascinating guy, super smart guy. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern 9 a.m. Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1 and the IHard Radio app. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind.

Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where sports slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down,

give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests.

I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross,

because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on Earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood,

pressure, and purpose on my new podcast. Learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the hard way and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff.

Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue 42. Hey, ref.

My mom won't you. you to wave at her. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas.

And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and

Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reed. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing.

That man, hell get the flying. He run up the court, licking his fingers. why he got the ball like after you go through a training camp with that izaa you figure it out real quick get your ass up and down the court and you're going to get the ball so listen to point game on the iHeart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts it's really actually an honor to have in david falk who when i started watching the NBA you know 30 years ago um 25 years ago he represented not only michael jordan but more than 100 NBA players and he got the player he understood the player, but he also had, I'm sure it was a tough relationship at times with David Stern.

I mean, because, well, maybe not. Maybe I should just ask him. I'm interested to how he dealt with Jerry Krause because I'm watching the documentary and Jerry Krause is wearing me out. I don't know if I had to call him twice a day. I don't know how much I could handle that. David Falks Sports Agent, a legend to me is joining us. David, you're a busy guy.

Thank you very much for taking time for our show today. My pleasure. I watch it from time to time when you're around the whole. and stuff, so enjoy it. Let me start with this. I watch Jerry Krause, and I cannot believe it drives me nuts, that it was almost a contentious relationship with Michael.

Now, is that being exaggerated in this documentary, or was it contentious often for Michael's time in Chicago? I mean, Jerry was an insecure guy, and I think the person, who best described Kraus in a nutshell in one sentence was David Hoberstam. I think is the greatest author in the last 50 years. He wrote a book about Michael. And he said, Krause probably deserved more credit than he was given and a lot less

than he asked for. And because Jerry was insecure, he constantly tried to make it a point that it was the organization winning, not the players. And the irony is the owner of the team, Jerry Rajsdorf, in Christ. incredible respect for fun. I really like him. He's really smart. He owns two teams, the white stocks and the bowls. And he really, in my opinion, used Krause as a filter, just for exactly your could describe it. He'd get people so exasperated that by the time they went to the Court of Appeals, which is him, they were way more malleable. So I tried very

hard. I rarely dealt with Jerry Krause. I mean, I did all my deals at Rinesdorf. We had a very close person relationship. And, you know, it's a mark of respect when you have, you top players, you don't usually deal with the GMs, you deal with the owners. Now, Michael had a long contract when he first got into the league, and many people said he and Pippin were both underpaid. Did you ever at one point try to go in and renegotiate that? Well, Michael's first contract was done by my boss, Donald L. Even though I was ahead of basketball. He didn't ask my opinion. He asked me to join him for the negotiations, sort of incredible, like having Bill Belichick on the one-yard line with one play left in the Super Bowl.

it calls the timeout, and he doesn't ask his offense as a corridor. He has a good of running, you know, 35 belly flop, you know, Z. What do you think? He just runs the play and loses. So Michael is behind the eight ball from day one. As well, most of the players in that generation. You know, Gran Hill, Isaiah. How about Magic signing a 25-re deal for 25 million one year before Patrick signed a 10-year deal for 3.2 a year?

So they were both underpaid. Michael redid his deal after the fourth year. he became by far the highest paid player in the league. I told him about what you sign. It will never reflect your value until you become a free agent. Most players in his generation, virtually every one of them, never became a free agent. They all wanted security, and security has a price. So Michael finally got more what he was worth in 1996 when he became an unrestricted free agent.

And he could have signed for $30 million. He could have signed to $80 million. I mean, he was worth whatever you could have been. an easy argument is worth $100,000, but they couldn't have a good team. And so the point of a second contract for me was to put him in an arena where no one else could go in. He was there by himself. There was Garnett making 21 and Michael making 30. And it took 17 years for someone to hit $30 million after he signed my contract in 1996.

So it stood the test at times. Yes, it did. David, was it? David Falk, a sports agent. David did Nike doesn't have a salary cap. So was it easier to negotiate with Nike, even though the money was so massive, I mean, listen, it comes down to math.

Michael was selling so many, he still sells more shoes than anybody else. Were the Nike negotiations because of what you were making, which is still today a bloody fortune, were those ever contentious? No, because the guy, Rob Strauss was the head of marketing for Nike, and he and I, by 1984, developed an extremely close relationship. we basically didn't have negotiations.

I would tell him what I thought was fair. He trusted me. It was very little back and forth. And, you know, the irony of the Air Jordan deal, it's probably the best deal ever made and it's probably the worst deal ever made because no one had a clue, including Nike, that you could sell $100 million worth of shoes

for a rookie in his first year. Their goal, as I've said, on a number of interviews all over the Twitter world, their goal was to get to $3 million by like $9 million. If I knew we were going to sell $100 million in year one, I would have asked him for a dollar a year and a $50.50, wealthy. And he would be making a billion now. So, you know, a lot of this, you know, you just didn't know it could exist. Right.

No player before him had their own shoe. Magic didn't have a shoe. Bird didn't have a shoe. Doc didn't have a shoe. Isaiah didn't have a shoe. Jabar didn't have a shoe. No one had their own shoe in basketball. The only player that I could remember outside of tennis or golf that had a shoe was O.J. Simpson,

with a really small company called Spotbelt that we actually talked to for Michael. So, you know, the deal was groundbreaking more in terms of disproving the notion that a player had to be in the league five years and establish himself before you could become marketable. Michael broke all the boundaries. And today, all the young players that want to have a brand,

even though I think 99.9% of them don't remotely even have a brand. And they spent oodles of dollars with these huge agencies, trying to, you know, do their social media consulting. You know, Michael, you said, sells more than, Michael sells more than every player who has their own shoe combined. Wow. But right now, probably times two. You know, he sells twice as much as Underarmus' whole company.

Wow. Did you remember where you were, long drive at home in your office, the moment you found out Michael was going to play baseball? I was home. He called me. It was a two-pronged attack, if you will. He called me at home on a Saturday, about 11 in the morning. And you have to understand all the relationship.

Michael is an amazingly great friend, the best. I mean, he's an amazing friend. He's loyal. He's sensitive. He's considerate. He really makes you feel special when you're a friend. But he loves to tweak you. So he called me at home and he said, hey, just want you know I'm going to retire.

and I knew he expected me to come right back and say, oh, God, you can't retire. You're 29 at the top of your game. And I fought all by basic human instincts to respond. Just do what I really do. People know who say, this is rare. I just shut up for about 30 seconds. And I said, to him the following.

Okay. I said, what are you thinking of doing? I said, I want to play baseball. Which, well, I wasn't surprised because he had talked about it with his dad. I wasn't surprised that that would be what he would do if he ever retired. And so I said to him,

It's the American dream to work really, really hard at something. Become the best at it. Make a ton of money. And when you make the ton of money, at that point, you can do it every hell you want. You can retire, you can play golf, you go to the Bahamas, you can teach. And if what satisfies you at this point is baseball, go for it. I think it takes an incredible amount of courage, Colin, for a player who's the best in the world, maybe at any sport, but certainly at his sport, to give it up in his private.

and to go play something, he hasn't played since the junior high. Could you imagine if you went to Major League Baseball Player today, who's 29, who played JV basketball in junior high, and said, we're going to put you in the G League tomorrow. Do you think he can average 15? Do you think he can average 50? We'll give you one month to train. DGG can average 15 points.

And so when he batted a 200 and double A ball, it was eye-popping. And, you know, he wasn't Derek Jeter, but, you know, he also hadn't played. baseball probably in, you know, 15 years. No, I led my show today saying I think he's a little better at baseball than I gave him credit for. I told my kids watching this documentary, I said the important thing to remember is Oprah got fired and Michael Jordan got turned down and tackled for years by Detroit that even for the greats, Michael had good parents, he had good representation, he had a great coach,

he had, you know, handsome, stylish, and, you know, Adidas and Converse are like, nah, I'm like, life is hard. And one of the hardest parts, and I've defended Michael on this, is the gambling stuff. Was there ever a moment, David, that you called him and just offered concern. You'd heard something and thought, you know, I mean, the stories were out there about he liked to gamble. Did it ever concern you? Well, first of all, my dad was a compulsive gambler. He was a butcher. My dad never finished high school. I'd never earned $30,000 his life and went to the track almost every day, hoping he hit the exacter, and he wouldn't have to work anymore. I'm very, very sensitive to gambling. You know, I think when Michael gambles and he's, you know, losing $50,000,

that would like you, you know, playing nine holes would be a betting me a nickel. I mean, it's irrelevant. Was I concerned, of course, I was concerned more about the impact on his image because he's squeaky clean. It doesn't come from good parents. He comes from amazing. Amazing. His parents are amazing people.

And if you want to know in the dock where he got that incredible competitive fire, just look to Dolores and James. They constantly urged him to continue to get better, not as a player, as a human being, to constantly improve, to read, to broaden your interests. They're really amazing people. And he played for Dean Smith at Carolina, who's clearly one of the greatest college coaches of all time. He wasn't like a solo pilot at Carolina. He played with James Williams, he was the number one pick in 1982. He played with Brad Dordy who's the number one pick in 1986. Sam Perkins, who's the number four pick.

He had really good players on the team, and he wasn't the best player at his college team at the time. That was clearly James Worthy. He was the MVP when they won the title in New Orleans. So Michael has amazing values. He's got a strong foundation. I've said this hundreds of times. Then maybe players have come along that are more talented to Michael Jordan,

than maybe players that have better shooters than Michael Jordan. I don't think they'll ever, ever be another player. that has the fortuitous mix of the parental background he has, the pedigree at North Carolina with a coach who drove him to become not only the best offensive player, but one of the greatest defensive players in the history of the game. And to have the intelligence and the drive that he has, it's just a unique combination. I've had hundreds of players, great players, representing some great coaches like John Thompson, Coach K.

I don't think there'll ever be another player in the NBA like Monk was with. David Falk joining us. You know, Michael took, he was, and I don't know if it would be different today with social media, but I do believe if you have strong parents and strong foundational systems, you're less inclined to be concerned about what others outside of that sphere think of you. And, you know, Michael would give a donation to a political person, but he didn't want to go public with it. Do you think Michael would be allowed today with the world we live in to be as, You know, ambivalent about politics or as his agent, do you think you would perhaps prod him to do political

activism at some level? First of all, they ask the second question is no. I think that every person has to choose the extent that you want to be involved, whether it's politics, charity, you know, good, good works. It's got to come from inside. And Michael was involved in politics. He just didn't discuss it publicly. He supported a lot of people.

He gave millions of dollars to different kids. candidates, different causes, you know, he just didn't, he just didn't do it publicly. And no matter what he did, did be a group of people that said he should have done more, maybe people thinks he should have done less. And, you know, there's a great quote to thine own self be true. You've got to do what works for you. Now, I can tell you personally, having been sort of in the middle of the eye of the hurricane for many years with the kind of clients I had, you know, no matter what I did, I had a group of people that would always tell me you're too greedy, you're too short-sized.

I didn't really give a damn what they thought. I had my own values. I was doing what I thought was right for my clients. And you know you're going to get criticism. And when I was about 35, John Thompson, who's my mentor, and he's my male mentor, my mom is my mentor, Pearl Faw. John is like my male mentor. I love the man.

He's taught me more than any man I've ever met my life. He called me in his office, he said, son, you have a very serious problem I'd like to discuss with you. I got really, really nervous. I don't know where he was going. I said, really, what is that? He goes, do you want people to like you? I said, of course. It's a very basic human instinct. He said,

son, when you walk into an owner's office, you ask that guy to pay $100 million for a hip-hop guy like Alan Ivers and he's going to hate your guts. And if that bothers you, quit the business. What you should worry about is that your clients like you and that the people are working with respect

you. And that was, I amazing in its simplicity. You know, I took that advice to heart. And, you know, like, I'm not going to quote you the whole thing, but there's a famous quote from Teddy Roosevelt. It's not the critic that counts. It's not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the duroof these could have done the better.

The credit belongs to the man in the arena whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who drives value, et cetera. That's Michael. And, you know, and he's got to do what he thinks his best, not what 25 different people tell him he should be doing. And if he didn't do that, he would never been as successful as he had if he wasn't grounded and had his own guiding principles. And whether it happened in the 80s, the 90s, 20 years from now or 50 years ago,

really doesn't matter the time and the social media. What matters is what your values are. How did you, when you recruited Michael as an eight- Stop, stop. We didn't recruit Michael. There was no recruiting back then. I mean, Today, the agent business isn't utter cesspool in basketball. It really is. And there are rules, but the union does not enforce the rules. They know everyone's cheating. They know that big companies are representing players and coaches,

which is a direct conflict in management. When Michael became an owner in Washington, I had to step down as his agent. Do you think I wanted to do that, step down from representing the goat? Those are the rules. And so in the day, at the top schools of the country, North Carolina with Coach Smith at Georgetown with John Thompson, Duke with Coach K, at Indiana, Bobby Knight, Rick Petino, there was no recruiting allowed. If Dean Smith would say to you, if you tell me that you were driving in Wilmington, North Carolina, you bumped it to the Lawrence Jordan at the Red Line food store, you're out. Don't say you're sorry. Don't say you didn't know.

You're out. no contact whatsoever. You could have one hour at the end of the time. He'd invite three or four groups in, that's all. There are very few groups. Like today, there are really very few groups that are qualified to do it. And he picked top four or five agents, and he brought him in, and he would recommend to the players who he felt was the best for them.

And it was like the Pope speaking. That's how we got Michael. We did no recruiting whatsoever. I could sit and talk to you forever. I don't know if you ever get to Los Angeles. I'd like to take you to dinner and just listen to you for about six hours and ask you a hundred questions. David.

You know, one of these days, I'm going to get off my ass and do my own, my daughter, my younger daughter, Jocelyn, was in Brett when she works for Wondering, which is a podcast company, and I've been talking about four or five different groups, talking to one at three o'clock. I love doing this because it's fun. And talking, you know, you have to understand, I don't think they'll ever be an agent in the Hall of Fame, you know, but be representing Michael Jordan and Patrick Ewing back-to-back for me is like being in the Hall of Fame.

I mean, there's no great honor if you're an agent to represent the greatest player who ever live the entirety of his career. And there aren't enough words in the English language for me to thank Michael for supporting me, staying with me the whole time for his loyalty, his trust. I mean, he allowed me to become who I became, you know, and it spoke volumes when you said a Michael Jordan's lawyer agent.

I mean, that's the greatest, you know, That's the greatest. You don't need social media. You don't need social media to promote that. You don't need Twitter or Instagram. Everyone in the world knew that I represented. I'll tell you last day. I let you go. I went to China in 2011 with one of my clients, Evan Turner, to do a promotional tour for a shoe company leaning. And he did about like eight stores. I was getting so bored. And so I just walked out on the street, sat down on a park bench, you know, just to wait for him to come out of the store. young kid about 13 years old walks up to me and says to me, excuse me, are you Michael Jordan's agent? Now, he didn't ask for you Evan Turner's agent because he happened to be there.

And that's Michael, that's not me. That's Michael's power. Michael's so well known and revered that, you know, just being, being on his team is the best honor. You know, it doesn't matter whether you're a starter or reserve. It doesn't matter how much credit. So what Jerry Krauss never learned, Colin, is that he eventually had six rings. if he had never said a word of all the what he said about organizations

and how greatest coaching staff is he's hilarious he just said nothing the only two people remotely in that time period who had six rings were at our back and Pat Riley he was in very more Michael's books

he was in rare air and the more he asked for the credit the less people want to give him and I learned that you know when I started working for Michael I've been in the business 10 years already I'd represented James Worthy, Phil Ford, a lot of great Carolina players ever, you know, represented John Thompson. I'd been a junior agent for Arthur Esh and Stan Smith in tennis. And I was as cocky as you could imagine when we did Brand Jordan and we did McDonald's and Coca-Cola, Chevrolet and upper deck and we're doing, you know, electronic arts.

We were freaking killing it. We were doing things no one had ever done before. And I was unbearably cocky. But after a couple of years, it hit me that, wow, you know, Michael can't have anyone in the world represent him. He can have the biggest law firm, biggest accounting firm, biggest PR firm, you could have William Morris, a big Hollywood agency, can anybody. But he had me, and I just became happy to be on the team and stopped trying to tell

him what I was doing. I think your body works speaks for itself. What a pleasure this has been. David Falk, don't go into the podcast business. just come on to my show once every couple months and we'll be good. You'll be happy with that. It'll be just a nice life. A lot less work, right?

David, thank you so much. It was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it. That was good. That was wonderful. All right. What if I take a break and come back and you do news with less time constraints on the other side? Can we do that?

I thought we had a guest coming up next. No, we know of the guest. Yeah, it's called the herd. I'm just throwing stuff around. All right, we'll do news next. All right. Let me take a break and then we'll have joy without time constraints on the other side. That's better because there is some news out there. Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern 9 a.m. Pacific.

Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending. Opinions are flying. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kier Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark.

Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person

while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing,

growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast. Learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show,

I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out.

Quarterback on office blue 42. Hey, ref, Mom, I want you. you to wave at her. What? Where's he at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clipper Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves,

I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flanks. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball, like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick.

Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, good to have you in. David Falk, stop by. We're going to move Tim Grover, Michael Jordan's trainer to the top of next hour.

Tim Calden, we said, David's got good stories. Can we move you to the top of next hour? And Tim complied, that's very gracious of him. we have had you know it's funny in these times of the pandemic and what we're dealing with it's opened up some opportunities for us to do some really long-form interviews and i've got to be honest with you i like them a lot i hope you like them and i'd like to stick with a lot of them because i think you get inside uh information and in-depth deep um emotional interviews and i learned so much i mean i'm just sitting there with david falk i'm it's like a class i felt like i was a student

in a class. So I hope you enjoyed him. And when we do get games back, whenever that is, I'm going to try not to, I still want to do some of these long form interviews. Maybe someday will get Bill Simmons in a studio. He refuses to do a studio. And now that he's, you know, rolling in cash, forget it. Lucky get him to text me now. Used to be, he was just one of us. But I'm trying to get him into a studio. I give him 45 minutes straight. But, you know, I sit up here, he sits down there. It gets very argumentative. It's too bad.

We could be so close. All right, here's Joy Taylor with the news. No, no, no, no. Turn on the news. This is the herd line news. Tim Grover got a little emotional last night. He did. You noticed that.

Yeah. He did get emotional. A little lip quiver. I've had some of them. I've had a few lip quivers over the last couple months. Yes, yes. We certainly all have. Yes.

I'm excited to talk to him. So the AFC East is a little more open now that Tom Brady is gone, but Bill's head coach, Sean McDermott, told Albert Breer that he's still looking at New England as a team to beat. He said, until someone is able to win the division, to us, the Patriots remain the favorite. Why shouldn't they? You tell me one reason why they shouldn't. We've got a lot of work to do. We really do, and our players work hard.

There's no doubt about that. I think that's the one thing I can say. We embrace that we've got to earn things. So he's putting that energy out there that they're not the top dog. They're still the underdog in the AFC East. I'm not buying it. The Patriots have won 11 straight and 16 of the last 17 AFC East titles. Tom Brady was there for those.

He's not there anymore. Fox bet has the Patriots favorite in 10 of their games. I don't get it. You know what? That bet against New England now, Uncle Colin is encouraging gambling because they're going to play two or three games and everybody's going to go, oh, the lines are going to change. They have no weapons.

They've got no weapons. happens, the Jets defense and Buffalo's defenses were great at the end of last season. Forget Baltimore's, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, the whole AFC. It's just this Patriots fear that's, that's lingering from what we've experienced for the last 20 years. But the reality is it's a different team now. I understand Belichick is still there. But nobody knows what Jared Sidham is. Bill Belichick doesn't even know what Jared Sidham is.

And he'll get credit form if he ends up being great. But he's not played any football. I should do just a. a segment a week betting against the Patriots. I don't think, I'll be honest, I'm not sure if they're going to average 20 points a game this year.

I feel that strongly about it. They have no, remember, tight ends always develop slowly in the NFL joy. So they draft two tight ends. They will end, no OTAs, maybe truncated camp. This is going to be a

really unwatchable offense for a good portion of the season. Unless Jared Sidham comes out and blows all of our minds, I do not see it. The bills to me are the team to beat in the AFC East, but the most exciting part is that the AFC East is finally open for competition for the first time in 20 years.

And speaking of why that is happening, Tom Brady headed to Tampa Bay. And Mike Evans has played most of his NFL career with James Winston as his quarterback and said even though he's going to miss having James in Tampa, he said on Instagram live that he's excited about what Tom Brady brings to the team. I obviously wanted James back because that's my bro. But the opportunity to get Tom Brady, like that's Tom Brady. bro. That's the greatest of all time. He's a franchise changing.

He's about to change the franchise. Like, ticket sales are going through the roof, like prom-time games, and he understands the game of football to nobody else understands that level. Great for the city. It's great overall. Hopefully we have a great season.

Everybody stays healthy, and it pans out the way we hope. Well, Mike missed three games last year with a hamstring injury, but he had 67 receptions over 1,000 yards, receiving and eight touchdowns. Like he said, he's used to playing with James Winston, but obviously very excited about the prospect of playing

with the greatest quarterback of all time. I got to tell you watching Last Dance last night and thinking about Michael and what he brought to teammates and the energy and the pushing, and a lot of people thought he was a jerk or he was too tough on them. It made me think of how Tom Brady is going to be in Tampa Bay because it is a completely different environment.

We know that Tom Brady, was very tough on young guys and he's a very different personality than Michael but still the same level of chip on the shoulder and unrelentless dedication to his craft. I wonder how he's going to be in Tampa Bay. Is he completely let let loose or is he going to bring a lot of that Patriots culture and energy down there? Well, I mean, Tom could push you as hard as he wanted in New England because he had the backing of his coach and the culture. Right. So I think Tom, this would be my guest, is going to be, he's going to loosen up a lot of. little. I don't think he'll be as dogmatic.

I think Tom Brady has never been somebody who is afraid to make some changes. He's dealt with a lot of offensive coordinators, a lot of receivers, a lot of backs. So my guess is that Tom, I don't think

Bruce Ariens will lighten him and loosen him up a little bit. But if he goes 0 and 4, he may go back to being dogmatic Tom. Right. Right. And despite all that, he does still want to win and does still have a little bit to prove because this is a dramatic move. Finally, you mentioned earlier, Tua has only been in the NFL for a couple weeks, but he's

already extremely popular. His Dolphins jerseys are number one and number two, the top selling jerseys on NFL shop.com. Tom Brady's Buck's jersey is right behind to it at number three, which is pretty impressive. Yeah, I mean, listen, the kids. One is the dolphins who have been up and down over the past 20 years, obviously, going up against Tom Brady, you know, during that time. But Tua just has some kind of special. Well, it's the look and the attitude and he's a good kid.

And, like, you know, he's faith-based. Tim Tebow was. Russell Wilson was. I think you could as a parent buy your kids a Tua jersey and be proud they're wearing him. Tebow always did great. Well, he also played at Alabama. That's a huge following.

Huge following and huge brands. But we had Michael Movedo on the show last week, and he was talking about the Dolphins brand and how if Tua does end up doing some winning down there, how they could be a big ratings draw because they are still a very big brand and very flashy. I mean, I'm excited for it. I'm completely bought in now. I'm all on board. And I can't wait to see what happens in the next couple years with these quarterbacks in the AFCs.

And we talked about this for months, is that Tua's, there's an it quality to him. This is why I would have drafted him regardless of the injury because I felt Miami has got to have a face. of the franchise. Yes. And even if Tua plays, and I've said this, 13 games a year for three years and retires with a hip injury, if he gets you eight, nine wins a year, and he just kind of galvanizes the whole organization. And then you know what?

He retires and you're like, worst case scenario, retires after three years. You bring him in the front office. And he's just kind of a legend. But there are very few athletes that have Zion's got this. There's just an it. Reggie Bush had this in college. Like Reggie was just people. people in LA.

You'd see as many Reggie jerseys as Laker jerseys. Yeah, some people just have a natural star factor to them. Tbo has it. Yeah. Now, for our sakes, I hope that it's not true and he has a longer than three-year career and is available for all of the games of the season. I do think you do have to do

a significant amount of winning to reach that point. And, you know, being eight and eight, nine, and seven, you know, that's not going to cut it if you want to reach legend status. But I'm excited about what this division's going to look like moving forward. Good stuff, Joy with the news. Well, that's the news.

And thanks for stopping by. The Heard Lye News. Michael Jordan's longtime trainer, Tim Grover, Stars used him. Tim Grover got emotional last night joining us. Get your free credit scorecard today, even if you're not a Discover customer, include your FICA credit score.

And check in your score. It won't hurt your credit. Learn more. Discover.com slash credit scorecard. Discover.com slash credit scorecard. Limitations apply. Hour three. Tim Grover next.

Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays in noon Eastern 9 a.m. Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the IHeart Radio app. Ah, here we go. Hour number three. Live in Los Angeles, this is The Herd. Wherever you may be and however you may be listening, IHeart Radio, Fox Sports Radio, FS1, SiriusXM Channel 83. Joy Taylor is joining me. enjoyed David Falk last hour. It was kind of cool that David acknowledged. He goes, you know, by year two, representing Michael Jordan,

I had to kind of get over myself and realize this young cocky kid that it was just fun to be part of MJ's team. And I thought that was a great moment of clarity for David Falk, who's obviously a super smart guy. Joy and I were, we really liked the Tim Grover stuff last night. Tim's a legendary CEO owner of Attack Athletics. He was a trainer for Michael Jordan. by the way, Kobe Bryant, D. Wade, he got very emotional during a moment last night. And I want to bring Tim on, who's been kind enough to move to the final hour of our show, because when a guest gets rolling and tell stories and we got nothing but time, we just let him go.

First of all, Tim, thank you for joining us. Where do you reside today, Tim? Where's home? Chicago's still home. Oh, I love it. I love Chicago. My wife's from there. Yeah, I know you do. First of all, thank you for both of you. For both, for letting me on the show. Really appreciate it. Oh, we loved having you.

So let me start with. Joy and I notice this. Both, both, you and Michael, got very emotional last night on questions about the relentlessness it takes to win. And I thought it was a surprising moment for Michael to get emotional. And then I watch you and I think, boy, Tim's getting emotional over the same thing. What is it about that journey, that work ethic that makes you emotional? You know what, Colin, it's all consuming. And that's what people don't understand.

It's all consuming. It's like everything matters, every detail matters, every play that you saw in a game, everything the coach said, everything that your teammate did or didn't do. It's all consuming because it's all about getting that end result. what he said is just like, you know, I was going to win at all costs. And those are the costs that people don't want to pay. And then when you finally talk about it, it's so hard for others to understand what you went through and just to kind of, you finally have a chance to let it out and it's not that easy. It's just like, you know, for me, just to be able to witness what he did every day

from a workout standpoint, from a practice standpoint, from a preparation standpoint. It's just like, like I said, it was all consuming. Michael was somebody too, Tim. He'd have a glass of wine, a big steak. He certainly wasn't vegan. But you did not. How did you, as a trainer in his body, look at, sometimes he'd smoke cigars. He'd do things that most trainers would pull back on.

but you let Michael be Michael. Never any pushback on that. No, you know what? That's what a superior athlete business person who's ever successful. You have to adapt to what they want to do. So, you know, my job was like, okay, he's like, listen, I'm not going to stop smoking cigars. I hired you to figure this, to figure out how I can still perform at the highest level

while I'm still doing the things I enjoy. That's why I hired you. That's your expertise. You know, you can tell me, hey, so I had to do the research on a different type of cigars, different type of tobaccos, when you can, when's the best time to smoke a cigar, when's the not the best time to smoke a cigar,

the difference between smoking a cigar and a cigarette, when I talk about all-consuming, because that's how he was. And everybody around him, you had to be all in. You had to be all consumed in to delivering that end result, which was the most important thing for him. It's amazing to watch when he was in Southern California Space Jam making the movie. And I was watching this last night, and I was thinking to myself,

there are certain people I've known in my life, Tim. They can go out, tie one on, have a hangover, and then golf 36 holes in humidity in South Carolina. Get up and do it for four straight days. And my body's just not built for that. I'll get sick. Michael at times looked like he was sleeping four and a half, five and a half hours a night. Is part of this genetics and that Michael had the ability to go to an area where even a Charles Barkley or a Dwayne Wade or an Akeem could not go?

Yes, he definitely did. But, you know, one of the things is as our relationship involved, you know, I was able to have more input. I was like, okay, you know, Michael doesn't sleep much. much at night because, you know, like you said, and I was like, all right, Michael, how can we facilitate a, like, nap in the, in the middle of the day? Is that possible? Like, on game day or after practice or so forth, before you start to go play golf, before you do your endorsements, before you do that? And I would present them with all the evidence. I was like, listen, you know, sometimes there's a lot of research out there that says, and back then, you know, the

internet wasn't quite available. That's right. Yeah, it was like library. Let's go to the library, the Dewey Decimal System. Go get a book. You know, go highlight stuff and say, hey, here it is. You know, I was like, listen, there's evidence out there that shows, you know, a good 45-minute or even a 20-minute nap, you know, in a certain environment, the way, you know, the darkness of the room, the temperature, all the stuff that they were doing now, you know, that all the teams are like, oh, the sleep scientists and all that stuff. We were doing way back when. We didn't have all the evidence that they had now. But, you know, there were some research and some common sense out there.

Yeah, you know what? This is what you, what happens when you sleep and it gets too hot. You wake up, you kick the covers off. All right. So like, all right, yeah, there's ways of figuring that, Michael, if we can do this, this will allow you still to maintain and perform at an optimal level, you know, still better than everybody else. But there's always stuff out there that you have, you have. have to figure out. And my job, my job, baby Fox's job, whoever else was involved,

but they're like, hey, I've hired you to figure things out because if I have to figure things out, I can't produce the best product out there as a basketball player. Was there a first meeting with Michael? I'm sure a lot of people wanted to be as trainer. Why do you think he trusted you? Go back to your first meeting. Why did he buy into Tim Grover? You know why? It's because, one, I was not a star-struck person. I was not a starstruck person, and he needed somebody who was as obsessive as he was. You know, they always tell you, you know, find somebody about, you know, in business and everything, find the ying and find a yank, you know, find somebody who's a complete opposite as you are.

I'm like, no, if you noticed everybody on Michael's team, they were just as messed up as he was. Right. We were all that, we were all that way. So he knew I paid attention to the detail. So what I would do with Michael, I would say, okay, listen, he's like, listen, I need to get stronger for the physicality of the Detroit Pistons. And I was like, okay, Michael, so before we address that, I said, let's address all the little minor injuries that you've been getting. You know, you'd have groin injuries, you'd have ankle sprains. I said, just by addressing those things, you're automatically going to become a better athlete.

You're already going to become more explosive. You're already going to become stronger. You're already going to become faster. You're going to be able to jump higher. I said, let's address those. And then once we address those, and then we'll start working on the strength component. Then when we started working on the strength component, it was like, I said, listen, you have to tell me how this is affecting your game, positive or negatively. All right.

So I can make the adjustments accordingly. You know, I would tell him, I said, listen, this was, and we're going to enter a new exercise or we're entering a new phase in the workout. You're going to have to make an adjustment in practice. You're going to have to make an adjustment in the game because your shot is going to be effective. And it's going to probably be effective for, you know, 48 hours, 60 hours, 72 hours. So I was kind of giving him the formula as things were going to happen in the future. We did this exercise. This is how you're going to feel.

We did this. This is what's going to happen. These are the adjustments that you need to make in order to bring this to where you want it to be. Was there a moment with Michael that he was in the best shape of his life? God, that schedule was rigorous. So after Space, that's the year he was ticked off. He'd lost Orlando. He was pissed.

Yeah, and also what it's so unlike the times before, usually when Michael, they'd win the championship, and I would give him time off. I'd say, hey, listen, because you're playing all the way through basically the end of June. So I would say, okay, listen, Michael, you know, we're going to start up, you know, like we always kind of started like a Labor Day. That was our thing. You know, that was just like, you know, he did his thing and he did his endorsements. He had to do all the other stuff, spend time with the family vacation, all that, go golf, see what you need to do. And he got all that taken care of.

Once Labor Day started, it was like workout golf, workout golf, workout golf, work. workout, golf, that's all it was until training camp arrived. This allowed us, like we literally started the next day, like the next day. And it allowed him, the one thing that he didn't have in the previous years that he had that years, he had to spend a lot of time in one location. So like everything was in L.A. So if you had meetings, everybody had to come to him. It wasn't like he was going everywhere else.

It was like, okay, I got to shoot this movie. I forgot how long the weeks were, you know, how long it took. But it was just like, so he's in one location. So when you're in one location, it allowed me to kind of eliminate the other variables that I had to deal with on a regular basis. Yeah, I knew, okay, they would give me his shooting schedule. And, you know, Michael back then was still a very, you know, vocal and powerful individual. So if he looked at the shooting schedule and something in there, he didn't like, you know,

when you're the star, when you're the star, of stars, you can make the adjustments accordingly. Before Tim Grover joining us, his book is Relentless, from good to great to unstoppable. It's fantastic, by the way, right years ago. When did Michael first say to you, get me in baseball shape? I need to be different, which is, I don't even know what that is. But when was the first time you heard, Tim, get me in baseball shape? So this happened

So what happened was after they won the second After they won the second The second championship And you know that obviously they had He had So when we were in the locker room Celebrating and then you know

One of my jobs was always He would always tell me he goes like Listen What's next? Like because he always knew he goes If I come back exactly the same As I came back the previous year I'm not going to

I'm not going to be holding this trophy. I'm not going to be holding this trophy. So what do I need to do? And then it was funny when we were celebrating, I said, listen, I'm going to get to work on next season. And he had, and he whispered in my ear, he said, baseball. Wow. I looked at him.

I was like, baseball. He goes, yeah, baseball. So even a year before they had even started going to prepare for the three Pete, he had already mentioned to me, baseball. And I, and it was funny. So literally that night when I went home, I started working on a baseball workout for him. I literally started right away. I was like, okay, let me start doing all, let me start putting all this together. And then, you know, when we started, when we started training again, so I had the baseball workout, I had the basketball workout. And I think I might

have told you this story before you read it somewhere. But I asked him, I said, when we met, I said baseball or basketball, he said basketball. So we started the basketball workout. So I had already knew this was something he was contemplating of doing a year before that. Yeah, as an author said last night, there's also an author of his book, Rare Air, that noted the same thing. Tim Grover, the book is relentless, good to great, to unstoppable. Folks, we got nothing but time to read. Buy it, read it.

fascinating stuff. Tim, it's a pleasure. If I'm in Chicago, I'm going to look you up. I promise. I have great respect for you, and I appreciate you coming on our show today. And, Carl, you know, anything you ever need, you just reach out.

You know, you've been extremely gracious to me from day one. And I don't forget things like that. CEO owner, Attack Athletics. Tim Grover. Thanks, Tim. Take care. Good stuff. I just love all these stories.

You know, it's funny. I'm not even a memory lane guy. I'm not a go-down memory lane guy. Never happened. I don't, you know, I just, there's something about MJ, the documentary. There's something about taking me back. I lived in Vegas. Because it will never happen again.

My wife's like, this experience, the footage, the stories, like, it will never happen again. If you're so, if you're a conspiracy theorist about the suspension, that doesn't, that doesn't sway you at all that he says that they were already talking about baseball? Oh, no, no, that confirms what I've always believed that he was, he, according to Tim, a year. before he went to baseball. He'd told his trainer, baseball. So that tells you he'd already thought about baseball. That was confirmed in his book, which I've read. Watch this, you know, I mean, and you had video last night.

He's swinging the baseball bat in the locker room. I mean, it's all laid out for you. All right, we take a break back in a second to The Herd. Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific. on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the IHeard Radio app. Our next guest has the distinction of some incredible NBA records. The oldest player in league history to score 50 points in a game and the only player to ever score 50 plus points in a game

with four different franchises. Jamal Crawford can score the ball, baby. 19 years in the NBA, three-time NBA six-man of the year. Only couple players in league history that have done that. And Jamal is joining us today. First of all, how are you and how is your family right now? I'm doing great. How are you guys doing out there? We're doing great. So far, we're safe. Is your extended family? Okay, Jamal?

Yeah, everybody's safe. My wife has everything dialed in, you know, with the online school and everything. That's a doubt in. We have a doubt in. We have recess and everything now. So everybody's staying home. Yes, so we're good. That's good. So, Jamal, well, first of all, let's start with the easy one. What's your big takeaway in the Jordan documentary? I'm just, I'm really, really happy that a lot of the younger generation, you know, who saw highlights and saw, you know, all the shoe sales and everything like that, they get a chance to see what makes him tick, you know, and the competitive fire and always striving for excellence, always taking something somebody says he can't do and turn into one of his strengths. So I'm glad that we kind of pull back the curtain. Obviously, I knew how competitive he was and is, but to see it in that way, it's been a joy to see. I would imagine, this is my guess, you've got a reputation as a smart dude and kind of a thinking man's player. Executives like you, I'm sure now that you could get an executive job if you wanted one.

So my guess is your first four years in Chicago, you played with Michael. I would guess you and I, you and Michael got along well. We got along great. Actually, my dad told me that he liked my game when I was going through the draft process. And I'm like, Dad, you're right. This is for social media. I'm like, there's no way, right? And then come to find out, I get drafted by the Bulls.

Tim Grover calls me one morning, like I said on your show before. Hey, come down here. Michael says you could meet him. I go meet him at 7 at the morning. Michael's been there since 6 working out. And from that point on, he was like, hey, you can start working out with me this summer. So from that point on, the next two summers, we played together and pick up and never lost the game. You know, I got to be honest, that's for Mike to invite you in.

He didn't do that for everybody. What do you think beyond your game, why did you click? I think love of the game. I think he saw a talent there, probably a raw talent. You know, and besides, obviously, being a tall, kind of, I was a point guard at the time, being taller in point guard, the skill set was there. But I was really, really raw, and I think he just, you know, saw some of that. It was amazing because when we got so tight, he actually picked me to be in the commercial

when he was doing 39 versus 23, a Gatorade commercial. And so it was just like an unbelievable. friendship that still exists as day. You know, Jamal, one of the things that jumped out to me in this documentary, I've been blown away by his parents. Absolutely. I mean, just floored by both. I'm going to make the argument that they're more important than we think in this thing,

that his refinement and his polish, I just, I think parents matter. Did he discuss them a lot? Did you sense he had a great. support system early? I did since that. And you can see it. It's kind of being pulled back in this doc. And I said that last night on Twitter. I'm like, the underrated part of this doc is his parents and the core values being instilled in him and his sisters and brothers, right? Like the way he's very respectful from doing his own laundry and just the way he treats people. And I've seen him, I've seen the non-competit side as well when he's joking around. He's just having a good time. And, you know,

I'm glad everybody's seeing that. But the parents did an unbelievable job. Even to the day, if you look at it, his mom still calls his dad, Mr. George, right? So that the respect level is always there, and I'm sure they instilled that in their kids early. 19 years in the NBA. Do you notice that a lot among players? Better parents, stronger parents? You don't see that a lot. Well, yeah, you see the difference.

I'm sorry to let you finish the question. Yeah, I see that. You can tell how people are raised. You know what I mean? Their morals, just small things. Yes, sir, no, sir. Yes, ma'am, no, ma'am. Yes, please.

Thank you. You're welcome. You know, I mean, just small, small things. You can see not necessarily as a reflection of the parents that some people could have been raised the right way and chose to kind of do what they want to do. But you can see their upbringing and see their roots, see how people who they have around at this level.

Like a guy like Devin Booker, his dad's always around. His parents are always around. Same thing with a Blake Griffin or Chris Paul or DeAndre Jordan. Jay J.J. Reddick, they always have their parents around in games. It's really reflective of those players. It's very easy. You know, people, everybody wants to be a star, but I don't think sometimes we understand

that there's a lot of pressures and there's in you were around Michael enough to see it was almost Elvis like. It's probably what Pele was like in Brazil. Was there ever a time and you may have confided this to your family

or your parents that man, this is overwhelming. How does this guy? Because I watch this doc and I'm like, he's like Elvis with a basketball. People are camping out to get a picture of him. Was there a moment an epiphany when you saw it for the first time, and you just realized Michael was different than even other great stars?

You know what? There was a moment where we left the gym, and he was walking across the street to a restaurant. No security or nothing at that moment, and he walked across the street, and I was behind him, and people were driving down the street, honking their horn, like literally screeching their brakes, and it was just, like, unbelievable. And I said to myself, like, Michael Jordan literally is just walking across the street. by himself at this very moment.

Like he just, you can tell he didn't do that often, but he wanted to do it. He wanted to have some normalcy in some ways where he could just walk down the street. And he didn't, he wasn't walking very far. He's really walking across the lot, but it was just him. And I was just like, wow. And the people were, in that five seconds, 10 seconds, people were almost crashing just to see him. So it was unbelievable. Jamal Crawford joining us.

It's been interesting to watch the often antagonistic relationship between Jerry Krause and Michael. And maybe it wasn't that way with all players. Did you get along with Jerry Krause? I did. He actually drafted me. I spent a lot of time in his office, picking his brain, asked him questions about the old teams and things of that nature,

the future of basketball, just different things. I was in his office a lot. And he knew his stuff. He really did. Very competitive. Very, very competitive. I remember that summer, I think I was drafted in 2000. The summer that summer, I think Grant Hill, Tim Duncan,

and I believe Trace McGrady were free agents. And he really wholeheartedly believed we're going to get all three of them. He was like, yeah, we're going to get all three of them. And we're going to get things back rolling here. You know, we got a down year of the year before, I think it was 99. But Elton Brand run our test at the time. And he's like, we're going to get things back road. And he really believed it.

So he was that competitive. You know, in some of these practices, it doesn't bother me. And I think if you've ever been an athlete or athletic, you know, I'm a workout, and I played on sports. So I look at it and I think, yeah, I had coaches. I had a high school coach break a clipboard on my knee. He was so angry with me. So it's just part of sports.

I don't think anything of it. Was there ever a moment in practice that even you as an athlete with Michael thought, oh, man, this is rough? Well, there was a moment. Are you saying it as far as watching the doctor? Yeah, like no, like when you, even the doc or when you were in a practice or you were around Michael and you saw how intense he was that you were like concerned, man, he is hard on players.

Well, not that way. I saw him in a different way, right? So I came down to play because at that time he had to work out with your team and then you can go play, right? A young player, you've got to work in a facility. So I worked out at the Bulls facility. I drive downtown to see him and they already had played. I got there a little late.

He lost. And he was in the corner. He knew me. Like, he'll mean, nobody goes to say anything to him. He wanted his face. He was in the corner. And he just was distraught. And it was like a summer session, right?

We're just really just playing pickup basketball. and he lost that game and he was sick to his stomach. And after that, I never seen him lose again. Yeah. By the way, did, you know, they always say great baseball hitters, Jamal Crawford joining us, that even a great baseball hitter, although I would argue Tony Gwyn did not have, there was not an outpitch for Tony Gwynn,

but great baseball hitters, there's always a baseball-sized hole in the swing and it's your job to find it. Was there, if there was a way to defend Michael, was there a little hole somewhere that you had a, fighting chance against him. That's tough. I really think about it, Colin. As soon as he figured out how to get through the Pistons,

he never lost the finals again. Like he never lost again besides the time when he came back to Orlando and they lost in the playoffs. But remember the next year, they went and swept Orlando. So he never lost again. Once he figured it out, that was really it. You know, and he looked for anything. He literally looked for anything.

It could be a writer that you've never heard of. It can be a player that's on the end of the bench that said something. Or maybe they didn't say something, but he made it himself, believe that and he just went off. So once he figured it out, he was playing a whole different game. There was nothing you could do to stop him. Yeah, I asked Tim Grover, I said, Tim, there are people that don't require sleep. I've played golf with guys who could play all night in a hangover. They could play in the heat and I'm like, I'm going to get sick. Is there ever

been another athlete in your 19 years in the league that had the ability to just work out game, lift, workout, sleep very little, because I do think genetics and God's gift, he does touch a handful of athletes. Has there ever been anybody close to Michael in terms of his relentless workout and his ability to just, you know, 16 hours a day of movement?

I can't think of one. And if one comes to mind, it would have to be Kobe. Just because you hear this, I never played with Kobe, but get a chance to know him and hearing all the stories, it sounds very similar.

So he would be the only person. that I could think of, even reading this book. He's like, I want to work out so much. And I want to be there for my family, so I'll sacrifice sleep. You know, that's what Kobe said. So I'm sure he took a page out of Jordan's book there, but I've never seen anything like it. Michael is like a, he's a competitive psychopath. Like, he's literally so competitive, and he'll rip your heart out.

And he takes joy in doing that. Like, he doesn't just want to beat you. He wants to demoralize you on the court, and that drove him. Yeah, Jamal Crawford. So are you officially finished? Your career? No. No, I would love to play again, you know, but obviously the opportunity hasn't come about these last eight months,

which was pretty shocking for me. But, you know, I'm not bitter about anything. I take it one day at a time and hope for the best, and hopefully something opens up. I'll be ready if and when that happens. Jamal Crawford. By the way, when you've been in this league 19 years, okay, now I'm going to ask you a weird calling question. You ready? Go for it.

Two restaurants in the NBA. This is such a random question. You got two places in the NBA. If I said, Jamal, 19 years of road trips, you get two places to eat in the NBA you've eaten at. What are your two favorites? New York and Chicago. Is there a restaurant? New York, it was town.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I love town, New York. In Chicago. Good food, city. Good. Yeah, you're right. That's a tough one.

I can't think of one right now, but just they had great food. so anyone placed there. Sacramento didn't make the list. They had some good food, too, but they weren't my top two. Jamal Crawford. Hey, best of your family, you're a credit to the game, and I don't know if you're going to broadcast or hang out or be an executive, but you could do all of them, and it's a pleasure to have you on.

I'll be around basketball somehow. Thanks a lot, I appreciate it. All right, Jamal Crawford. You know, I asked, Tim Legler, I always asked those, too. Or Bruce Bowen, I'd be like, okay, give me your favorite restaurant in your city. you know Tim Legler had the craziest story ever I wonder if I could tell it on the air

I can't tell it on the air if you have to hesitate the answer no it doesn't involve anything he okay can I tell the story can I think I can so one time I told Legler could have been just being a smart act so why don't you run it by us in the break

and then no I think it's good I'm good with it okay so one time I said I said, you know, favorite city, worst city, best flight, worst flight. And he goes, he goes, man, he goes, we used to play. Cleveland used to play in Ridgefield, Ohio. And he goes, it was so bad. And I'm like, really? And he told me one time, he goes, one time I looked out my hotel room and I think I saw

a dead body in a field. And I'm like, what? In a field? Yeah, he goes, you're kind of in the middle of nowhere. He goes, I think I saw a dead body. and I was like, I'd switch hotels, Tim. He goes, I was just a... I don't know how many hotels they have available there.

He probably just made it up. I'm laughing at a dead body in a field in Ridgefield, Ohio. Yeah. But he was telling, he was like, yeah, it was a middle of nowhere, and it was, yeah. I was going to write, I'm going to write a book someday just fine, because the NBA's got these guys who have played forever. And just craziest NBA story. Mike Breen, the announcer, tells me a story.

And I said, Brin, give me, give me, ever have a bad flight? And Brin's like, oh, yeah. He goes, I flew once out of Boston in a storm. And he goes, we all looked at each other. And he said, we're going to die tonight. And I'm like, come on, Mike. He's like, oh, no, people were praying. He goes, we hit a snowstorm.

And I was like, Mike, he's like, no. Yeah, I've been on a flight like that before. What? Yeah. I was sitting next to a stranger. And about like, I don't know, 20 minutes into the flight, we just like turned in looked at each other. I was like, we should pray? Probably, right? I was like, should we hold hands? And we literally held hands and I prayed. And it was, yeah, I was a hundred percent positive.

It was that the turbulence? Yeah. I mean, it was like, it was a thing. I didn't have to explain to him why. It was just like, yeah, we should, we should pray right now. Like, we should say something to God because we're going to meet him soon. Oh, my Lord. I'm not getting on a flight again. That was, the airline industry thought it had problems before that story. We made it. It was fine. Joy Taylor with a news. No, no, no, no. Turn on the news. This is the herd line news.

Well, according to Gary Myers, who is the author of New York Times bestselling book, Brady v. Manning, there's a factor in Tom Brady's departure from the Patriots that's being overlooked. Excuse me? He reported today that there's an excellent source that told him that Tom Brady's deteriorating relationship with offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels. contributed to him leaving. He had reportedly been worn out by McDaniels after all these years, and he also wanted more inputs in the game plans than he had.

Oh. McDaniels went on the New England staff for 16 of the 20 years that he was on the roster. Well, McDaniels pulled that nonsense with Chris Ballard, the GM of the Colts, had the job backed out. That doesn't surprise me. He sniffed that in more than one time.

Yeah. Well, apparently that was part of the issues, too. They seemed that they were brothers fighting up the sideline blow up. is what Gary said, and it was worse than that. He wanted more input on the game plan. And so, yeah, I think, I think much like the last dance were learning kind of some of the underlying issues

and things that were going on that they had to overcome throughout the dynasty. I think we will eventually learn what the, well, look, we're going to learn one side and then the other side that shoot somewhere in the middle always, right? But we are going to learn some other things and factors into what, you know, drove Brady to make this decision at this point in his career. Well, I think Tom,

saying can I get a saying can I get us say in some of the game plans? I think he's earned that right. Yeah, kind of. A little, sort of. Yeah. I mean, if there's meeting that kind of resistance at that point, especially when he's the one making it happen with no reliable wide receivers or weapons.

Remember that little article on Brady when they're like, we think we could do it with a lot of guys here? I get nothing against Jared Stidham. I'm getting to the point where I'm almost rooting against Jared Stidham because I'm tired of the disrespect for Brady. Honestly, if Russ Russell Wilson stays in Seattle for 10 more years and doesn't get a say in the game plans, that I'm rooting against his successor.

It's not rooting against Stewart-Sidham. I just think that it's disrespectful to say that they're just going to pick up right where they left off. A little. The greatest quarterback of all time. I don't care how he's playing. It's not like he walked off a cliff last year. Him leaving is not going to have any effect on your offense or how you perform. And there's going to be still the top of the AFC East and everything is just going to be fine.

I think that's the part. I may have to get petty. Anyway. Listen, you know I love petty. So Michael Jordan said he didn't think people would like him after getting an inside look about how he treated his teammates throughout his career. Last night, we got a lot of examples of Jordan going after his teammates.

And he talked about his win-at-all-cost mentality. He said, winning has a price and leadership has a price. So I pulled people along when they didn't want to be pulled. I challenged people when they didn't want to be challenged. And I earned that right because other teammates came after me. They didn't endure all the things that I endured. Once you joined the team, you lived at a certain standard that I played the game, and I wasn't going to take anything less.

I really loved that moments with him last night. I mean, obviously, one, if you don't play sports at a high level, it can be kind of jarring to see someone yelling and screaming at a teammate like that. I mean, we talk about guys blowing up on the sidelines, and what does it mean? And constantly, players are saying this is a part of the game. This is what happens in practice. We hear about fights and training camp,

and it's like the end of the world. Like, no, sometimes you need a little bit of that animosity and you need a little bit of that fire going to get, to elevate you to the next level because you are eventually going to be in a fight. You are eventually going to be in the crosshairs. You're going to come up against the piscence and you're going to have to be hard and tough. And sure, you can come in and joke when it's just us and it's just the team. But when you get down to it, winning a championship takes that little extra push.

And if you didn't have that push when you were training, you're not going to have that in the moment. So I really loved watching him talk about it when he got emotional. and he started, you know, saying he needed a break because you could really tell. Like that's how he's built. He really cares that much. And if you don't care that much, you can't be a part of it. And I fully understand that mentality.

I don't think that there's another way to be the best of the best if you don't have that mentality. Totally right. He's going up against too much. So finally, Mother's Day was yesterday. Happy Mother's Day, Mom and Titi and Happy Mother's Day to Ann and all the beautiful mothers out there. Well, Tua gave his mom, Diane, a very special Mother's Day gift yesterday. Saw that. Posted a video of him surprising her with a brand new car,

a black Cadillac Escalade. He wanted to make sure that everyone could drive together. This is why he got her such a big car. He was able to surprise a special lady with a special gift. Happy Mother's Day mom. I love you. Did Joe Burrell buy his mom a gift? I mean, okay, this is what we're doing now?

It's a very nice thing. Okay. Also, just a note, they have agreed to a $40 million-plus contract, which includes a $19.6 million. signing bonus. So I use some of that for a very, very nice car for his mom for Mother's Day. Very nice. That's very nice to it. I'll tell you that kid's special. That kid's got special. It's the Zion thing. You can just spot some guys that are special. They just got a little gift. There's just like a little little gold layer hovering over them. Like they're just meant to be different.

Whatever I just talked about. I don't know what you're talking about. Joy with the news. That's the news. And thanks for stopping by. The Herd Lye News. Up Downer Sideways. We play it every Monday and best for last after watching the last dance. Who do I like more, less about the same? Up Down Sideways next.

Be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays in noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the IHeard Radio app. In just six days, it's the day we've all been waiting for as NASCAR returns. Don't miss the historic green flag in the return of live racing as NASCAR. is back Sunday at noon Eastern 9 a.m. Pacific on Fox. Get your free credit score today, even if you're not a Discover customer, if I could credit score, check your scorecard, won't hurt your credit, learn more, discover.com slash credit scorecard.

Limitations apply. We do it best for last on Mondays. We watched the Jordan documentary called The Last Dance, and it's one of those things where, as I watch it, do I think more or less or about the same of the primary people in the documentary? So here we go. All right. Michael Jordan, shunning up. down or sideways.

I would say trending up again. First of all, the space jam stories are amazing. When he was get up at 6th the morning, he'd start filming at 7, he'd get a two hour break at lunch and work out, come back, do more filming, then at night play pickup games. I mean, I just, I got tired listening to that. It's just, it's just incredible. I don't even know, I don't even know, I don't think I've ever heard of an athlete.

Dee Wade was in great shape, but I'm not sure I've heard of another athlete that lives like that. Scotty Pippen, trending up, down, or sideways. Trending down. He quit on his teammates, and then he doubled down on it. And it's like, Scotty, listen, in basketball, it's a team game. As good as Michael was, Michael got truly his belts, his rings, his titles when he started letting Paxson and Steve Kerr shoot. So doubling down on that, I thought was a bad look for Scotty, who's always been a great talent, and I never considered a great leader. Steve Kerr, trending up, down, or sideways.

I think trending up. Yeah, I think his the fact that he stood up to Jordan, didn't he also say last night the 72 Bulls were the best team he was part of? And that would include the Warriors, right? Because he was wearing a Warrior shirt. Did he say that?

I could have been wrong on that. Maybe I jumped to a conclusion. But I do think the Bulls are better than the Warriors. Although if you weren't allowed to hand check and you weren't, I mean, that team was, Bulls were a much more physical, stronger team than the skinny gene warriors. They don't shoot as well.

I think he said it was the best team he played with. Okay, maybe he said that. But yeah, punching Michael Jordan in the chest is, I think we all knew which way that. The story was ending either way. BJ Armstrong, trending up, down or sideways. Trending up. First of all, I love the stories about him turning to the bench

and taunting the bulls. I also think he comes across as honest. Like, he's like, you know, sometimes Michael wasn't great all the time as a guy. I like BJ as a guest, so I like him. I just kind of like him in the documentary. I think he's smart and tells good stories. And he doesn't hide and eat, doesn't sugarcoat any stuff. I mean, he'll just say, you know, Michael was tough.

Jerry Reinsdorf turning up, down, or sideways. A little sideways. He's still cheap. But I will say the way he handled Michael retiring, he could have been far worse. He wasn't petty. He was like, you know, he just said, if you're going to do that,

You got to go talk to Phil Jackson about that. You can't stop with me. You got to tell Phil, which I thought was an incredibly adult way to do it. I don't know. If I own a team in Michael, I think I'd be devastated. And Rinesdorf, and he still paid him, by the way, as he played baseball. David Stern, up down or sideways. Up.

I always like Stern. Stern yelled at me. I'd bring him on the show and he'd yell at me. And we used to argue all the time. But I don't know. I find maybe it's because he's. past. He understood Jordan. He really did. They're just something about not all commissioners. I mean, I guess all commissioners understand the value of the stars, but I find Stern likable

in this. And David, I know people that negotiated with David Stern was not always likable. He was a ruthless negotiator, a much harsher commissioner than Adam Silver, but I find him likable in this. Gary Payton, trending up, down, or sideways. I would go down. I don't think Michael Jordan laughing at you was great. Now, in fairness, being from the Pacific Northwest, State of Washington grew up a Sonics fan. The Sonics defensively, Michael did not have a great offensive series. So I think that is sometimes a little mythology that Michael dominated Gary Payton.

Gary Payton had a calf strain. So basically, George Carl told us last week, he told Gary, don't worry about the defense. We need your points in this series. And the other thing is, Michael did not have a great offensive series. And it went, did it go? It went six games, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So Sonics not only won the game in Seattle, it went back to Chicago and won. So it was a, but it's hard because the Bulls won the first three. And when you win the first three games of a series, emotionally, it's like leading 28-0 at halftime in a football game. It's hard to go in at halftime and say, fellas, it's giving me the toughest half of your life. So, but I did think that Sonics were a little better, deep. defensive team than they got credit for by Michael.

Because Michael, and by the way, Utah and Seattle gave Michael some difficulty. He had a couple of really stinker games against the jazz in the finals. He played him twice. And he had some bad moments against the Sonics. And Gary Payton was a very good defensive player. It's just no good when Michael's laughing at you. Stick name is the glove. He was a great defensive player.

Oregon State, which used to have a great basketball program. With everything going on, probably worrying more than ever. chill. Go to MDrivev Relax relax. 50% off. MDrivevrelax.com. MDrive relax.com. I think it's cool that Jamal Crawford comes into the league. You know, Jordan's leaving at least Chicago and Michael puts him under his wing and they work out together. That's kind of cool, isn't it? You want to be my workout partner? That's a cool mentor. I'm the old guy. You're the young kid. Come on work out with me. That's pretty cool. I like that story. All right. Doug Gottlieb, David Falk, MJ's agent, Tim Grover, MJ's trainer and Jamal Crawford.

We could do anybody. Let's do David Falk probably on the podcast today. It went very, very long. Our new long-form interviews, hope you enjoyed it. Joy, we'll see you tomorrow. See you and see everybody tomorrow. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind.

And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. And every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source

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This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host, Kier Games. This space is about black men, experiences, having honest conversations that's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're

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