The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Why I Had to Pull Out the Operation Card to Get Larry Bird

Episode Date: June 1, 2020

Talking with Karl Malone in the space that amounted to his wildlife museum, strolling the streets of Spokane with hometown tour guide John Stockton, guilting Larry Bird into sitting still for an interview, and silently wondering why Clyde Drexler would suddenly start talking about why he was as good as Michael Jordan. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 is big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down,

and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild. I mean, it was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all?

You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is the Dream Team Tapes, a diversion podcast original series in association with IHeart Radio. Coming into the 1988 Olympic Games in Seoul, South Korea, the United States had compiled an astonishing 71 and one record

in men's basketball. Basketball was our game, and in no other venue was that so apparent as in the Olympics. But that year was different. While the rest of the world, who had been learning the game from the Americans, were sending their best players, the American team, made up of all college players, struggled to an embarrassing bronze medal finish. That was the last time we sent our boys. Now it was time to send our men. Jordan, John Stock, Charles Irving. Well, let's see. Patrick Johnson said it was his best memory ever.

I finally got a chance to go with Michael and Larry and also know them as men. And that right there for me was the best. All those nights Michael Knox stayed out of the chairs those moments. Michael Jordan used it as a scouting expedition. It was enlightening to me because I never got to see how these other guys lived. It was more of a scouting fit for me. I wanted to see how Maddie Johnson prepared for a game, Larry Bird prepared for a game. Larry Bird said, well, good thing it didn't go on any longer.

I always say if that team was together another two weeks, we would have a lot of problems. You can see it. And the late great David Stern, who died on New Year's Day, 2020. Wait a minute. Called me a bozo? Now, what people don't remember, it's like bozo's like you. This is now the dream team of blessed memory. They forget Charles Alphos the Angolan, you know, bad sportsmanship, the U.S.

This is crazy. What are we doing going? I hope you go back and we do. Why are we sending these things? This is to humiliate people. Michael covers off his logo with the American flag. I mean, it was a, you know, now it becomes beatified. That is just a small sample of what I got during the two years it took me to write

Dream Team. The 2012 New York Times bestseller about what many, probably most, consider the greatest team of all time. I'm Jack McCallum, and this is episode one of the Dream Team tapes. There will be eight podcasts in this series, and yes, everything that David Stern brought up, trust me, will be covered by this bozo. And much more. Somehow I had managed to preserve all of my audio tapes from those magical years leading up to the formation of the dream team, the games in Barcelona, and even the aftermath. All of that material was captured on an old-fashioned Radio Shack recorder. You'll hear it all, the voices of all 12 dream teamers, accompanied by a few authentic scratches. I interviewed the players all over the place, at their homes, in their cars,

in the case of Larry Bird and Michael Jordan in their offices. You'll hear the voice of the late Chuck Daly, the head coach of the Dream Team, and lots of material from his assistant, Mike Shosheschi. You'll get answers to all of those questions. How exactly was the team selected? Did Michael Jordan really want to play? Did he keep Isaiah Thomas off the team? Was there a rivalry for leadership of the Dream Team? Hint, yes.

Why did Charles Barkley throw the most famous elbow in Olympic history at a seemingly helpless Angolan player? Charles claims to have a good reason. Now, Magic Johnson was just a half-year removed from announcing that he had HIV. How did that play out? And did the story end when the Dream Team won the gold medal? No way. If you remember some of that stuff from the book, well, okay, but there's more.

This is the real stuff, none of which you've ever heard before in audio form. I feel fortunate to have been on a journey with these guys, and I don't want to take you with me. always in basketball circles. From time to time, the subject of Olympic basketball comes up, and once again, everyone conjures up the greatest team of all time. In this first episode, I wanted to give you a sense of what it was like to write the book, how the interviews went down, the behind-the-scenes stuff.

I'm calling it why I had to pull out the operation card to get Larry Bird to talk. And as I set out to interview these guys, one thought was in my mind. Magic Larry. I guess that's three thoughts. But there is a hierarchy of needs every time you're gathering information, and at the top of that hierarchy were Jordan, Magic, and Bird. Now, they would all present difficulties to round up. Magic because he's so damn busy. Jordan because he's so damn elusive. And Bird because he's so damn moody and unpredictable. Get him talking. He's unbelievable. The key is to get him talking. I started out with Scotty Pippen.

I arranged to meet him at a hotel near his home in Florida. With the exception of Christian Leitner, Pippin was probably the player I knew least on a personal basis, which is somewhat astounding since I had done about 3,478 stories on the Bulls over the years. But they were rarely centered on Scotty. There were times I even went out to Chicago with the express purpose of doing a Pippin story, and then Jordan would go for 49 and 42 and do something else outrageous, and Jesse Jackson would be hanging around his locker,

and sure enough, it would turn into another Michael Jordan story. I even felt somewhat guilty then about my treatment of Pippin, especially since I knew I would end up asking him, even in this interview, about Jordan. And I did, and he was great and very honest, a sample. You know, Michael was huge. he's getting headlines and most of the time

it's good for him because he may score 40 points he may score 35 points and it's always going to have a spinoff that Michael did this but the team did this you know so you know we had to go through those

as a team and as players you have to hear that and you have to read it but you know you still got to keep pushing forward You think Michaelover admitted that he needed some behavior modification that he needed to change. He'll never admit that.

I walked away from that interview thinking, man, if I can get stuff like that from everybody, I'll be in good shape. And I'll always be grateful to Scotty for getting me off to a good start. When I went to visit Carl Malone at his home in Ruston, Louisiana, he said to me, be prepared, Jack. I know this ain't your thing. I walked in, and I was in a wildlife museum. Hanging from the ceiling and walls were about 100 mounted animals, big game that Malone had shot from Canada to Alaska.

And apparently, according to what he said, they included the Grand Slam of Sheep. Most amazing thing here is the Grand Slam of Sheet right there. In the hunting world, those four sheep there would be the Super Bowl NBA championship in all in the hunting world. Those four sheep. Don't ask me what it is. This isn't Wild Kingdom. Look it up. I could never figure out why Malone and I got along so well.

I never fired a gun, never had the slightest interest in driving gargantuan tractor trailers, another Malone passion that I had written about, and I'm positive that I never wanted to get into a political discussion with him. But I always enjoyed his company, and he mine, presumably, and I guess it had something to do with his honesty. Anyway, if there were two players on the dream team who were not sympathetic, it was Magic Johnson and Carl Malone. I'll tell you about that in future episodes.

From Malone, I went to Stockton. I know, it should have been the other way around, Stockton to Malone. The majority of John's 15,806 assists, most in NBA history, went to Carl. The interview which took place in his hometown of Spokane was, so impossibly Stocktonian. First, he expressed horror when I pulled out my tape recorder. John, I didn't fly 3,000 miles to Spokane, not to take notes. Okay, he said reluctantly. Then, like a dutiful tour guide, he showed me around his hometown. Now, we're looking down at Gonzaga's Niagara Falls. We had the World's Fair here in 1974. See? That's where the main hall was. We saw John's junior high. We saw Jack and Dan.

the bar that used to be owned by John's father and was a staple of every John Stockton story ever written. We walked around the campus of Gonzaga, where he really started on his unlikely road to superstardom. John also told me about his boyhood encounter with Isaiah Thomas, whose entry on to the dream team and his continued place on it after an injury is deeply connected to Isaiah. More on that later, but here is Stockton on meeting Isaiah at an AAU tournament, when John was 15 years old. We were driving through Spokane, by the way, so the quality's not that great.

The game goes on at the end of third corner, I see what it looked like to me, decided that he wasn't going to do what coach said anymore and break the press his way. He was just going to dribble through it. So he dribbled through a duck, dribbled through a duck, but I couldn't place somebody to be that good.

Now, Patrick Ewing, I never succeeded in getting much out of Patrick over the years. I liked him a lot and knew him back before he went to Georgetown. After he became a Nick, Patrick always agreed to talk. But he usually scheduled the interview after practice when he was getting post-practice medical treatment,

which meant I had about half his attention. But when I saw Patrick down in Orlando, he was then an assistant magic coach and is now the head man at Georgetown, his alma mater. He was loose and charming. He told me a funny story about Jordan from the 1984 Olympics. We were horse in the run, and he had me in a headlock.

I'm, you know, I'm trying to get out of that. I pick him up. I'm trying to get out of it. I woke, I wake up the next morning. I can't move my neck. I can't move my head. I'm trying to move my head. I could not move it.

So I go to Bobby as a coach. I can't practice today. He's like, why? He's asked because I got a cricket my neck. I couldn't move. He got so pissed off. But he got on me and he didn't get on Michael. Obviously, much more on Jordan to come.

Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear.

The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience

in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough

because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust.

I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free, Our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all right. Yeah, yeah, literally. But just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now.

Now you're finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Clifford Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her.

What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue 42. Hey, ref, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the I-Heart Radio. app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest.

Service and the Ad Council. Some love him. He's a football god. And some hate him. Fuck you, Tom Brady. Can I say that? But no matter how you feel, you know his name. Tom Brady. Tom Brady. Papa Brady.

But what can we learn from Tom's career about the world and about ourselves? From Religion of Sports and ESPN Plus, this is Man in the Arena. binge all 10 episodes now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. If I could be you. And you could be me for just one hour. If you could find a way to get inside. Each other's mind. Walk a mile in my shoes.

Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. We've all felt left out. And for some, that feeling lasts more than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it belonging begins with us.org. Brought to you by the at council. I really had no background with Christian Leitner at all. I remember introducing myself to him

after the dream team was picked, and he basically looked through me as if to say, why should I care who you are? After that, I didn't even bother with him. But he was in a tough situation with the dream team. So many people thought he didn't belong, and how the hell was he going to contribute much in any case? And here's what he said about that. If I'm not at that upper-assinar level, then I'm just a good kid with a good personality who knows this place. And if my place is very low on the totem pole because Madgey Johnson and Bird and Michael are all on the team, it was an easy transition. I'm very good at that role. I don't mind that role. It's a lot of fun. I caught up to Leitner during Bob Hurley's Senior's charity golf tournament in Montclair, New Jersey. It was a miserable day,

and I rode around with Christian in a golf cart. He didn't feel much like answering questions. He was having much publicized money problems at the time, but he was game, and he even offered me an extra umbrella out on the course. You know, it struck me how different Leitner's experiences were from all the other players. Though he was inside the team, he was almost an outsider. His perceptions more like those of a fan than one of the guys. He told me three things stuck out for him. First, the transitional speed of the game, that is, how fast things move. on changes of possessions. Even the so-called, quote, slow players, maybe Stockton and Chris Mullen, were much faster than the highest levels of the college game. Three steps faster at least.

Number two, how passes were thrown the moment you got open. You just held out your hand and the ball arrived, as the way Leitner put it. And Leitner's favorite moment came in a practice session when two of his college teammates, Grant Hill and Bobby Hurley, had just arrived. They were part of a college all-star team that would scrimmage the Dreamers. And they saw Charles Barkley go down the baseline against Carl Malone. Here is Leitner describing it. So I'm playing, and I see Bobby and Gray walk in. And like a minute later, Barclay Dung San Malone, and they're all like, oh, no, God.

Well, let's move to Clyde Drexler. O-M-G, as the kids say. Clyde and I had always gotten along pretty well. At times, I know he considered me one of those Jordan Can Do No Wrong, and why you and I recognize more writers. But he liked me and I liked him. We did the interview at Clyde's house. He made me a delicious chicken salad sandwich.

We talked about how our respective fathers had been butchers. We talked about how we had played golf together with Barclay. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines.

We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsLice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests.

I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you

hear on earth? Or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose

on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free, Our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line.

We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys?

This is Clivert Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, Hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Quarterback on office blue 42.

Hey, ref, my mama wants you to wave at her. What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Writer Jan Hubbard and Monte Carlo. But then he started in on a Jordan tangent, claiming that, did I think Jordan was better than me? No way. And here's a little bit of what he said.

I'll clarify in a second. I was bigger, fast, and stronger. But I did everything he could do. But I helped shoot more. He said he was bigger, faster, stronger, and the only thing Jordan could do better than him was shoot more. Clyde, Clyde, Clyde, Clyde. Clyde was damn good, as he says. But no, he was not better than Michael Jordan. One of my all-time favorite quotes, now maybe he had to be there, was offered by Rod Thorne, who drafted Jordan when he was general manager of the Bulls and later became a much-respected NBA executive. You'll be hearing from Rod later. Anyway, Rod had always enjoyed kidding Steve Snapper Jones, who was the Trailblazers announcer, a great guy himself.

Snapper died a few years ago. Snapper would always claim that Drexler was just as good as Jordan. And one day Rod said in his West Virginia draw, Steve, you all got TVs out there in Portland? If Clyde really wants to get pissed off, by the way, he can ponder this sound bite that I got from Jordan. Man, that's taking speaking about yourself and the third person to a whole new level. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest.

It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wall. wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide through this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face

of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide through this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at

Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds. grow too, because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other.

The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. One of my most enjoyable interviews was with Chris Mullen. I had found out he was going to be spending some time at his place in the Hamptons, so I said I would meet him there. My wife came with me. The meals there are great. Bring money. Mullen was always the most unassuming a prose, a guy who Jimratted himself all the way to the Hall of Fame,

overcoming a stay in alcohol rehab along the way. Chris was one of the few players to whom I showed a few minutes of what I called the greatest game nobody ever saw, the famed inner squad scrimmage in Monte Carlo, and the subject of podcast number six in this series. Hey, Liz, come here, Chris shouted to his wife, when I showed him a couple seconds of birds, making a steal and converting a layup during the scrimmage.

Watch Larry on this play. That spoke to the almost what I would call deification of bird that took place among several members of the team. It came about because of birds' quiet, unassuming leadership, his willingness to stay behind the scenes despite his iconic place in the game. It was obvious where I would go to interview David Robinson, to the Carver School in San Antonio, a school for disadvantaged youth that he had started after he retired. David had always talked about doing it, and that's exactly what he did.

Interestingly, whenever any of the other dream teamers talked about David, they talked, of course, about his athleticism and his intelligence, but also about how, of all of them, Robinson was the least competitive. Here's what Jordan said about Robinson. No, I mean, David Rats about music. Wow, Michael used enthralled. Now, that isn't quite fair to David. who always claimed he was much more competitive than he was given credit for. But we had a long and fascinating conversation about how he always felt trapped between two worlds, between the student and the athlete and the black world and the white world. I guess every kid says it's difficult, right?

I mean, yeah, I thought it was difficult because I didn't fit in really either world. Pretty much most of the time felt uncomfortable because, you know what I mean? If I was in my classes and I was with these, you know, at the white most, everybody was nice to you up to a certain point, you know, but then, you know, you were still the different one. A social glass ceiling a little bit. Yeah, oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, they would invite me to the little party and then, you know, they play, spin the bottle or something.

They'd be like, well, okay, you could be the referee. You know, so, you know, that kind of stuff. So, you know, you felt like, yeah, you know, they're cool up to a certain point, but then, you know, you go out to, you know, I would go play ball or go hang out somewhere with, you know, with, you know, with, you know, with, you know, the other kids, the black kids, and I'd be, you know, it was fun up to a certain point, but then, you know, we might be talking trash, something going on, you know, and I'd be like, if you speak a certain way or if you act a certain way, you know, sometimes they'll call you Uncle Tom or something like that, you know, and I'll say, man, you know, you're just, you're not black enough.

And then, you know, on the other side, you're not white enough. So I think it's just a, it's probably a little bit of both of those things. Because, you know, there are certain things I didn't feel comfortable, you know, people would talk trash and they'd say stuff. And I wasn't good at that game. You know, I don't like when people would say, you know, say something negative. Well, on to a man who never seemed to have much trouble figuring out who he is. Getting a hold of Charles Barkley and having him sit still for a couple hours isn't easy.

He'll return maybe one of my ten phone calls, so I made a call to the bullpen for Julie Fye, the longtime public relations person for the Phoenix Suns, who had kept Charles out of innumerable scrapes during his years as a son. One tool for a journalist. If you can't get somebody yourself very easily, you've got to know who to go to. We talked about the usual stuff, including Charles elbowing the Angolan player, which he did in the Dream Team's first game in Barcelona. We'll get back to that. But considering Charles was only a little while removed from his celebrated D.E. during which he spent a weekend in jail in Arizona, it was hard to avoid the subject of drinking,

even my drinking. And our conversation begins with Charles telling me he took a cab to dinner. The background noise is because we're in a restaurant in Phoenix. It's funny. I was having this conversation with the cab drive on the way over here. That's how funny it is. You didn't drive over here? No.

I can't drive here if you're going to drink. When you in jail, it's a long fucking weekend. You're over the limit already. Check. They're doing it to make money here now. So there was Charles being all chased and careful watching my alcohol intake. And when we had finished with the interview, he asked me to drive him home because he had, you know, taking a cab to dinner. And I said, sure, and we started home.

And a few miles into the journey, Charles said, Jack, pull over here. There was a bar. He invited me to join him. I declined. He assured me he could get a ride home. I didn't doubt that for a moment. We exchanged goodbyes. and I thought, as I always did when I was around him,

the world would be a lot less interesting place without Charles Barkley in it. So Michael Magic Larry still had to get them. Negotiations were ongoing. He had a shot with Magic because he has a guy, a guy I've known for a long time, Lon Rosen. I kept calling Lon, finally caught up to Magic at the 2011 finals, where he was doing commentary for ABC. we talked about a lot of things, including, of course, HIV.

I think sometimes you, as a man, you say, okay, let me just educate this guy. And I think that Commissioner Stern and the NBA did a wonderful job of educating the players. I did my part on educating the players. And then, so I retired again after I was going to come back. Then we did a great job of educating not just the players, but the world. because the world was not educated as well. When you think about all the misinformation that was out there, so I had to be the person who could now,

okay, let me give you the right information. Let me educate you. And then the Olympics actually gave me the platform to show the world that a guy with HIV could still play, play at a high level, and you wasn't going to get HIV by playing against me. on that subject, obviously. Jordan required some negotiation.

You don't go through the team, meaning the Charlotte Hornets, to get Michael. You go through Esté Portnoy, Michael's long time and quite formidable gatekeeper. Besides Jordan's natural reticence, I had one other thing going against me. Jordan's long-standing war was Sports Illustrated, which came about because of what Jordan considered an insulting cover we wrote about his baseball career. I've talked about it so often I feel like it's written on my forehead. I didn't have anything to do with that story, and Jordan didn't hold it against me. But in my request to Estay, I made sure to mention that Dream Team had nothing to do with Sports Illustrated.

Okay, she finally wrote back. Michael will give you 15 minutes, and the only subject to be discussed is the Dream Team. Now, a tip to young journalists if you want to hear it. When somebody's representative gives you a time limitation and a subject restriction just agree to it, particularly if he or she is reppping somebody famous. Don't waste your time arguing with it, but when the time comes, simply ignore the mandate and keep going for as long as you can. Chances are, if you have the subject talking, he will just keep on talking. Half the time the subject doesn't even know what was agreed upon

or really doesn't care all that much. So we definitely veered far off the Dream Team script. Here's a little from Michael talking about one of the dark periods in his life after his proclivity for gambling was connected to his first retirement from the game, which happened after the 92-93 season. That was the last. That was just a taste. Jordan was beyond great. When I finished my interview with him, I thought, books over, man. I got Jordan. He told me some great stuff.

Let's move on. except, except Bird. Bird was then running the Indiana Pacers, and he had proven elusive. First, he said he didn't want to do it. Nah, Michael ain't doing it, he told me. Michael's doing it, I said. Then we missed connections on a meeting. Then I went out to Indianapolis on draft day 2011,

and Bird got tied up, and we missed connections again, and he wouldn't return my phone calls, and the days turned into weeks, and the weeks and the months, and I had to write the book. And the only damn player I hadn't talked to was one who was really important and one with whom I had enjoyed a good relationship over 25 years. Now, there was a lot about Bird in the book I had written so far. People talked about them. I had old interviews.

I could have even faked it, but it just bothered the hell out of me. So I threw a Hail Mary. I called his secretary, who by this time, had heard for me half a dozen times. Hey, listen, tell Larry I'm going in for a prostate cancer operation next Tuesday, I told her, and if I die on the operating table, my last thought was that Larry Bird blew me off for this book. See, the thing is, that was true. Every bit of it.

So Bird gets on the phone and says, okay, what do you want? I can talk now. Larry, man, can't do it this way. I got to come see you in person. I've seen everybody in person. I'll be there on Monday, okay? And he said, okay. Another tip for young journalist. Always see someone in person if possible. You can't feel the interview over a phone. It's easier for a subject to cut you off when you're not live. There's a certain flow to the conversation. And Bird was great, talking about what he got out of the dream team, and in typical

honest Bird fashion, talking about how some of the... it would have turned sour had it gone on any longer. So I left the bird interview ecstatic, except for the fact, of course, that I was facing cancer surgery, but that's another story. But I felt great about the interview, all of the interviews, but the question was where to put the bird stuff. I had finished the book by then. It was already in proof form, what editors call galleys. And when something is in galleys, they don't want you making a lot of changes. Well, I had a lot of changes after my conversation with Byrd, but I had an idea. I told my editor I would make the chapter about Bird, the final chapter of the book.

Yeah, I would have to make a few other tweaks to the manuscript, but basically I would just be adding on material. See, Bird had told me two things that really stuck with me. One was about his father. I'll tell you about it later. And this was the other one, and it was about when he had decided to retire, a decision he had made, though few knew it, after the Celtics had lost in the 1992 playoffs to the Cleveland Cavaliers.

When I walked off the floor in Cleveland in the playoffs, when I was walking off the court, I said, this is it. And I loved that building. The second game, I played in NBA, two regular seasons. We played in Redsfield. We pulled up there, and I couldn't believe it. Pulled up, and you could see it sitting there. I thought, oh, my God, that's what I always dreamed of.

Freaking huge basketball. building in a cornfield. That is to me, so when I left there, when I walked off that court that day, I said, what a great, great ending. An arena that rose out of a cornfield. That seems so magical, so bird.

But also, so at the essence of what sports is. Anyway, that is just the beginning of the dream team journey. In the next episode, we'll be hearing about how all this came to be and why, after over 50 years of Olympic competition, during which no NBA players suited up for the United States, there suddenly occurred this cosmic moment when it all came together. If you enjoyed the Dream Team Tapes, please follow, rate, and review wherever you get your podcasts.

The Dream Team Tapes is written and hosted by Jack McCallum, executive producers, Mark Francis, and Scott Waxman. Executive producer for IHeartMedia is Sean To Tone. The Dream Team Tapes is a diversion podcast's original series in association with IHeart Radio. For more podcasts from IHeart Radio, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo, and every episode we're cutting through the north. breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to SportsSlic. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite.

Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at a podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam Jay and I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors.

Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. It was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host kids. games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not

safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed human