The Jeff Cavins Show (Your Catholic Bible Study Podcast) - Communicating by Listening

Episode Date: July 6, 2018

The goal of a debate or a discussion about the Faith should not be to win; the goal should be to share Christ. This involves more than just telling people what Scripture says, it involves listening to where they are coming from and then giving them an answer that meets the pain and angst that they are experiencing in their life. Today, Jeff gives you ten points on how to become a better listener to others so that you can touch people’s hearts and answer their questions with the message of the gospel.

You're listening to the Jeff Kavana show, Episode 71, Communicating by Listening. Hey, I'm Jeff Kavins. How do you simplify your life? How do you study the Bible? All the way from motorcycle trips to raising kids, we're going to talk about the faith and life in general. It's the Jeff Kaven show. Recently, I just came back from an amazing trip, through Western Europe from Holland to Germany, France, and ending up in Switzerland and had so many opportunities to talk to people. Not only people who were traveling along with my wife and myself on our 40th anniversary on the Rhine River, beautiful time, but just meeting people

in towns, I had an opportunity to talk to so many people. And I found myself in situations where I wasn't listening. And people were trying to tell me their political bent or their religious experience, their ideas on the Catholic Church and so much more. And I found myself in sort of an automatic defensive mode ready to answer all of their questions. And I realized in the middle of it, you know what? I got to do a better job of listening. Welcome to the show. I hope you're listening. I truly do think that part of communicating and sharing the faith with other people really involves listening to people. And today I'm going to give you 10 points on becoming a better listener to those who are telling you about the plight of their life and the difficulties

that they are going through. I am sitting here in the deep woods of Minnesota right now along a lake taking just a few minutes out to get away and talk to you, join by my bulletproof coffee. This is something new to me. I don't have a sponsor or anything, but Have you heard of bulletproof coffee, certified clean coffee, brain octane oil, grass-fed butter? Interesting. Maybe it'll make for a better show. I don't know. But maybe you've had this bullet-p-it's a new thing now, I think, particularly out west, bulletproof coffee.

Anyway, I want to talk to you about communicating by listening. And this could end up becoming a series of shows that I'm going to do over the next week or a week or two or more. month or so about listening to people. Because I think it's really a part of sharing the gospel. You know, sharing the gospel is not just a matter of telling people what we think or what the church thinks. Sharing the gospel is listening to the plight of people and listening to where they are coming from and then giving them an answer that fits with the pain and the angst that they are experiencing in their life. Many times I have heard from people who went to a family reunion Christmas, Thanksgiving, whatever it might be, and it turned into just a mess because it was a

political debate, you know, going on. And everybody felt like nobody was listening to them. I mean, really listening to them. And there's something to be said about feeling like someone's hearing you and the pain that you are going through. You know, if you go on the web right now, YouTube particularly, you're going to see all kinds of liberal and conservative rhetoric champions. I mean, people who are going to fight the fight by arguing with one another. And there's a lot on the left, there's a lot on the right. But one of the things that I'm not hearing, one thing left out that I'm hearing is

people aren't listening to one another and listening for what the real pain is in someone's life and then being able to come alongside them and talk to them and to share Christ with them. The goal of debating or the goal of discussion with people isn't to win. The goal is to share Christ, and that's what we want to talk about today on the show. So I'm going to give you 10 points that I think are really good points when it comes to listening to other people. But I want to start off by telling you a little story that happened, I don't know, it must have been four or five years ago. I was at a speaking engagement and a lady came up to me. I did not know her. I have never met her before. I did not have any

prejudgments about her. Didn't know her name. Nothing. She came up to me and she said, so-and-so is a real fan of your Bible study. And I said, oh, you know, praise God. And she said, I just want to know something. And I said, what's that? And she said, do you think I am going to hell? Hello, and what was your name? She literally opened up the conversation this way. She said, do you think I'm going to hell? And I said, what is your name? And she told me her name. And I said, you know, so-and-so, I'll use the name, Susan, or, yeah, Susan, for the sake of argument. Susan, I don't even, I don't even know you, much less do I know where you're going to spend eternity. Why would you say that to someone like me?

And you know what she said? She said, because I know that you're a Bible study and I'm a lesbian. And I said, oh, okay, I didn't, I didn't know that. she said so do you think i'm going to hell and i said susan i i have no idea whether you're going to hell i do not know what your relationship is with god or really anything about you and and i said well tell me more about yourself and she started to talk to me about uh her relationship with another person and then she circled back and said do you think i'm going to hell and i said again

And that is above my pay scale. I don't know where you are going. But I got an idea of who you are. And I started to talk to her. And as I listened to her story and listen to her heart, I said, you know, I said, do you really desire to be loved? And she said, I do. Do you really desire to have someone that you could give yourself to and be completely faithful toward? And she goes, I do. And I asked her a number of other questions, and I said, well, you know, Susan, it sounds like to me that your heart is in the right place, that you really want to be loved and you want to love unconditionally. You really want to give of yourself. Is that right? And she said, yes. And I said, that sounds normal to me. What I would propose is that you are stopping short of what God has

for you. And she looked at me and she said, nobody has ever answered me like that. She said, most of the time, people just say, well, here's what scripture says. Here's what the church teaches and you're going to hell. And I said, no, no, no, I'm not here to determine your eternal destiny with you today. That's way above my pay scale. What I want to talk to you about is what's happening in your heart and how has God created you? And that led to a marvelous discussion. And that's what really, really, you know, started my thinking about this show, along with this trip I took to Europe. Are we really listening to people? You know, many times we win the fight with relatives at Thanksgiving or Christmas, or we win the fight with people at work, but we lose the war.

Yeah, we came out with both guns and the apologetic holsters blazing, but we didn't win anything really. because we didn't touch their heart. We really didn't answer the questions that they have in their heart and mind, but we came out with guns blazing and apologetically, put another notch on the belt. Did I come out swinging? No, that's not the goal here. One thing that we have to remember is that we're not here to win the fight. We're here to win the overall war. Now, when I say war, I'm not talking about people, I'm talking about good versus evil, but I'm talking about, I'm talking about bringing people to a place where they understand who they are, why they were created the way they are, and who is God, and how much he loves them. But one thing that I have really, really found out,

and particularly, I don't know why, but in the last month or so, listening requires physical and mental concentration. It's work. Do you know what I mean? It is work to listen to people. You've got to shut your mouth. You've got to calm your mind down. You've got to listen to them and think as Christ in your response. So let me give you 10 points that I came up with on listening and how we can become better listeners. I'll go through a few of these. I'm going to take a break and then we will come back. So as you are interacting with people at work, family, neighbors, whatever it might be, colleagues, high school friends, number one, and perhaps the most important when it comes to communicating with people and sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ is this,

James chapter 1 in verse 19 says it, and that is, be quick to hear, slow, to speak, slow to anger. Those three things are incredibly important when it comes to communicating the gospel with other people. Be quick to hear. Listen to them. Listen and slow to speak. In Greek, this is translated, shut your flapper. Kidding, you know that. Do not take that to the diocese and theologian. slow to speak be quick to hear slow to speak you've got to discipline yourself and slow to anger why does james say you need to be slow to becoming angry because he knows that when we dialogue with people there's going to be a tendency to get angry to get angry we'll talk about some of those in just a moment you know listening is a matter of controlling your tongue because our tongue really wants

to get flapping. Our tongue really wants to answer every question. And so often we break, we break their continuity of thought when people are explaining their position to us. We break their continuity and explaining their situation by doing what? By interrupting. Not too long ago, I was with an individual, and we were talking to people who did not know the Lord. And I was asking a few questions about where this person was at in their life. And my friend, literally every single time that this person that we were talking to would begin to talk, my friend interrupted. And I kind of gave him the look of, can you shut the thing just for a moment and listen to them, please? So often we break their continuity. People need some time and space to explain their heart. They don't need us to

interrupt them at every point. And sometimes when we're with a group, you know, this idea be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger. If you're within a group like at a pub or, you know, someplace and you're all talking, oftentimes your friends will keep breaking in. And as someone who is interested in communicating, I think it's up to us to kind of say, hey, can we stop just for a moment and let Mary, let Sarah, let Don, let Philip complete his thought just for a second here. I'm really interested in what they have to say. So number one, be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger. Number two, don't do this. I did this. I did this. Let me tell you the story. Don't look around them or beyond them. Look into their eyes. Don't be distracted.

A number of years ago, I was counseling some people, probably three different families at the same time. It's back in the days when I was a pastor, and I got called in by the elders one day, and they said, can we talk to you about something? And I said, sure. And they said, we're getting several people that have reported that when they come to you for counseling, you're not looking at them. You're looking beyond them, like you're not interested. Like you don't care. And I looked at the elders and I was shocked, you know, I was, I didn't know what to say. I like, what? Of course I care.

Do you know what I found out? I found out in the next six months after that that I was having like little seizures in my optic nerve when people were like three or four feet away from me. And you know what the answer to it was? get this drum roll i needed glasses when i was talking to people within three or four feet i was getting these little seizures in my optic nerve because i needed glasses and i went to doctor after doctor and finally they said i think you need glasses i put them on and i could look at people close no close up but the point is not that i needed glasses the point is is that they perceived that I was not interested in them because I was looking beyond them or around them.

And you know, this can happen with your iPhone or your Samsung, your smartphone in general. This can happen when people are talking to you and you are preoccupied. Don't put the phone on the table. Don't look around them. Don't act like something else could be, you know, possibly more important. When you put that smartphone on the table in front of you at Denny's or wherever you're meeting with someone, you know what it does? It sends a message that you are able and willing to be interrupted.

That's the message that it sends. Put the thing away and listen to them. Put it away. Put it in your backpack. Put it in your briefcase. Whatever it might be. But don't put it between you and the person who's trying to explain. their heart. And this can happen in public. This can happen in public and this can happen at a restaurant

or wherever. So number one, be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger. Number two, look around them or beyond them. It's a no-no. Don't do it. Number three, love them by listening to their heart. listen to the language that they use. Most likely, they're not there to defeat you theologically. Most likely, they're talking to you because they're crying out. People will say things like, I feel like you don't care. I feel like this or that, or I think, or I see. And so you get a perspective of where they're at. Love them by listening to their heart. Remember, Someone who was arguing, I remember, I remember this very clearly, very clearly. Let me just share this as the example.

I had a lady who wanted to talk to me, and she started arguing with me about the Blessed Virgin Mary. Well, I'm Catholic. I mean, I'm used to this. People will say, I want to argue with you about Mary, the Eucharist, the papacy, praying to saints, all these things. know, I'm very familiar with it. And I remember her arguing with me about Mary. And when the subject of her mother came up, she fell apart. She absolutely fell apart. Now, I'm listening to their heart. I'm listening to her heart. And what I perceived at that moment is, this lady is not arguing with me about Mary. She doesn't have a problem with Mary.

This woman has a wound, not theology, but an emotional wound related to her mother. And the entire conversation changed from Mary, the Blessed Virgin Mary, to her own mother and healing by Christ. But if I would have kept it on an argument about the Blessed Virgin Mary in Ephesus and this and that and this, her wound would have never been addressed. love them by listening to their heart. Number four, ask the Lord to help you listen to where they are coming from. This is really important. When you're talking to somebody, ask the Lord to help you to listen to where they're coming from. They may not be just interested in a theological debate.

They may be coming from a place of tremendous wound, of scandal. they may be coming to you from a place of emptiness or feeling terrible about themselves. Part of communicating with people as a Christian is asking the Lord to help you be sensitive and to listen to them from where they are coming from, from that perspective. And this has been a really, really important point. I'll give you an example. I remember talking to a guy and I told him about. how much, you know, God loved him and had a plan for his life,

churigma, right? And he told me, he says, well, I'll tell you what, if you want to talk to me, then you got to come down to the bar. Because I'm going to go down and have a beard. If you want to talk to me, you can talk to me down there. And this was at a time where I didn't, you know, go to bars. And I'm not that I hang around bars now, but I certainly didn't hang around bars then. But I was listening to his heart and I thought, okay, I'm going to do this. And I followed him. and I went down to the bar, we bellied up to the bar, I got my Pepsi, he got his beer, whatever, and I started listening to him. It turned out he didn't have any problems, theologically, with anything about me. He was on the verge of divorce. His family was falling

apart, and what I needed to do was to listen to him as to where he was coming from. And out of that came an amazing conversion. Number five, your response may not come all at once, but in stages. This is something that we have to learn when we communicate, and that is that when we engage in conversation with other people, you don't have to answer every single question, and you don't have to put the wrapping paper and the bow on the argument. Your response may not come all at once. You know what? There might be five points that are brought up. when someone's trying to converse with you, and two responses might be enough for now. Answering every single question at times can be very, very overwhelming.

And we should get together, maybe perhaps at another time. You can say to someone, you know, man, this has been good talking to you, and we got to talk about a couple of the points that you brought up. Can you get together again with me? and that's when you can start to answer more questions. So number five is your response may not come all at once. The war is not right now. The battle is not right in front of you.

This might come in stages in terms of really ministering to that person's heart. I'm going to come back with the next five. Right after this break, we'll go through them quick. I'm Jeff Kavens, and we are talking about communicating by listening. We'll be right back. Reading the Bible is something we as Catholics know we should do, but, let's be honest, it can be kind of complicated. Even though it's a complete story, the Bible isn't really one book. It's more like a library, with dozens of books and dozens of genres.

There's poetry, prophecy, and prose. There are apocalypses and revelations, historical accounts, and allegories. No wonder it's difficult to keep a finger on the story of God's love and plan of salvation for his people. the thread that keeps all of it together. If you're wishing there was a simple guide to help you tie all of this together, then you're just like Jeff Kavins and Tim Gray. That's why they wrote the book, Walking with God.

Walking with God is a single book that traces the story that ties the Bible together. It helps you to understand the big picture of the Bible. If you're looking to read more of the Bible, walking with God will help you do it with confidence, peace, and clarity. You can find out more and order Walking with God on ascensionpress.com or on Amazon.

Welcome back to the Jeff Kaven show. We're talking about communicating by listening. We covered five points so far. Be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger. Look around, don't look around them or beyond them when you're talking to them, look into their eyes. Number three, love them by listening to their heart. Number four, ask the Lord to help you listen to where they are coming from.

And five, your response may not come all at once. It might come in stages or another cup of coffee in a week from now, something like that. You know, these things that I'm sharing, I had the privilege of being in radio for a number of years, quite a few years. And when it comes to taking calls or on television, the television shows that I've been involved with, Listening really, I think, is the key to communicating with people, and we need to bring it into our everyday life. Not only when it comes to sharing the faith, but to be honest with you, this is also important in marriage, and it's important in your family relationship. We can exasperate. We can really hurt the relationship we have with loved ones if we won't listen to them. So let's look at

six through 10. Number six is avoid being offended by what they say. Have you ever been in a conversation where you're trying to share Christ with them and all of a sudden they say something about you or your wife or, you know, where you work or something? And all of a sudden you think, I'm offended. I'm absolutely offended. I take that personally. Well, the person who said it didn't mean necessarily to offend you, but you might be offended by it. Here's one of the keys. Avoid being offended by what people say. So they said it.

Big deal. Big deal. As one comedian once said, I think he had a great comedy set when he was talking about being offended. And he said, so you're offended. So what? Nothing happens. It's not like you're going to say to your wife, you know, somebody said something against my

Lord, and I woke up, and I was offended, and I woke up the next morning, and I had leprosy. Nothing's going to happen if you're offended. Be offended. But get on with the truth and the discussion that you're having with someone. So avoid being offended. That's going to derail the whole conversation. Don't take it so personally. I mean, Jesus is king. Jesus is Lord. He can handle himself. So they said something about Jesus that didn't quite set well with you. I got big news.

God is a big boy. He can handle himself, all right? We don't need to be offended and lose the relationship that we have with people. I remember, for example, when I came back to the Catholic Church, I was telling one of my close friends who was connected to some pretty, pretty, you know, influential. speakers nationwide. And one of these influential speakers, Protestant speakers, nationwide, had heard that this pastor, Jeff Kavens, had come into the Catholic Church. And my friend came to me and he said, hey, I heard that so-and-so over in Illinois, heard that you came into

the Catholic Church, and you know what they said? And I said, what? And he said, oh, that you needed a father figure. Do you have a weakness and you needed a father figure? Well, at that point, I could have said, I'm offended. I'm offended. How could they possibly say that? Don't they know that I'm an American? I pull myself up by the bootstraps. I'm a self-made man.

I don't need anybody. No, no, no. You know what I said to him? I said, oh, you don't know the half of it. You don't know how much I need a father figure. Don't be offended. Don't be offended. Number seven, are you willing to change if they have a good point?

What if you do get into a conversation? And all of a sudden, the person that you're talking to has a really good point. Are you able to thank them? Are you able to say, that is good? And I want to embrace that. That's important when it comes to listening. Number eight, formula, don't, oh, this is a biggie. Oh, this is a biggie.

This is one that I'm actually guilty of so many times. And I've got to change it. I do. And I'm working on it. I'm doing an okay job. But number eight is stop formulating thoughts when that person is talking. You know darn well what I'm talking about, right? They're talking to us about their heart and about their questions and so forth.

And inside you're saying, okay, I'm going to answer this way and this way. And I got this quote from that book. And I remember seeing this quote, blah, blah, blah, blah. Don't formulate all of your thoughts. Listen to them because they can see. they can see with your eyes. They can see with your actions. The way you're moving your phone and everything else is that you're getting, you're licking your lips. You're ready to jump in like a, like a fight and just completely come against what they said. Stop. Listen. Remember what James said,

be quick to hear. Slow to speak. Slow to anger. You say, well, I am slow to speak. Yeah, but your hands and your face are showing that you are going to be quick. Don't do it. Don't do it. It's not worth it. Don't do that. That's one that I'm so guilty of. I'll be honest with you. Formulating thoughts when the other person is talking and I should be listening. Number nine, remember their name. You know that when somebody comes up to you and says, hey Jeff or hey Susan, hey Barry, hey Tom, hey Gary, hey, Melissa, something physiological happens when people hear their name. Literally, I'm not making that up. I mean, I'm talking serious. Something happens when you hear your name. The unfortunate thing is when someone yells out, hey, idiot, and you look, but that's a whole other show. But when

someone yells out, hey, Jeff, in the middle of a crowd, you better believe something's happening to me. And in a conversation with people, when we're in the conversation, And someone says, you know, Tom, hey, Susan, hey, Melissa, hey, Frank, something happens to you. And so when you are in a discussion with someone, make it a priority to listen for their name and call them by name. It's like the old thing we used to kind of joke about, you know, in my evangelical years of going out and trying to win souls is that we'd share it with people, the Lord Jesus Christ. you know, the Roman Road and everything, and then after about 20 minutes of talking to him, saying, hey, man, I love you. What was your name? Come on. Let's listen to their name and call them by name. That's very important when it comes to listening. Remember their name.

And number 10, you don't need to cover every point. You can let some things slide. when someone engages you in a conversation about theology or truth, the Bible, you know, Catholic teaching, whatever it might be, political views, you don't need to cover every base, you don't need to cover every point. Don't feel like you have to give this almighty comprehensive response to their questions. Again, what I said earlier, ask the Lord in point number four, ask the Lord to help you to listen to where they are coming from. They may give you a barrage of seven or eight points about the Catholic Church that they are in disagreement with, but you're listening for how you should respond.

You can let some things slide. You don't have to cover everything. And when you don't cover everything, it doesn't mean that you agree with them, right? But listen with the ears of Jesus. So those are the 10 points. I'll put them in the show notes for you if you want to just go ahead and grab them. But real quickly, in a conclusion, just some thoughts as we conclude this. Number one, when you're talking with someone, follow up questions to what they are saying is very important.

You know, repeat back to them what they are saying. They may clarify that, no, no, you didn't understand what I was saying. So if they say something and you say, let me get this right, is this what you're saying? and you repeat it, they may say exactimo, or they may say, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. And so in your discussion and listening to people, not only are the 10 points important,

but also ask for some clarification. Number two, in follow-up, your body language is important. Your eyes, your mouth can give away that you are ready to interrupt or you're not interested. Make sure that you are listening with more than your ears, your face, your hands, the position of your feet, everything. The phone, away, all of it. I'm yours. I'm listening. I'm here for you. Number three, avoid any why questions at the beginning of a conversation. Look for information with what questions,

what? And that can really help to keep your conversation moving. Don't get to the why right away, but get into the what. Well, I hope this is helpful. I mean, it's a lot of information. 10 points to really communicating by listening, and I do hope it helps. I do. That's what I'm thinking about this week. That's what I deliver to you every week. Things I'm thinking about, things I'm struggling with myself, and I do want to hear from you. I do. Part of listening. You can get a hold of me at the email address is this. The Jeff Kaven Show at ascensionpress.com. The Jeff Kaven Show at ascensionpress.com. And again, I hope you hear me. Go to Apple, go to Google Play, rank the show. You would not believe how it helps it and give me your feedback. I read it every

week and I'm so appreciative of it. If you're interested in me coming to your city and speaking at your church or your conference, get a hold of me at jeffcavens.com. And we will get back in touch with you. You can email me at the Jeff Kavan Show at ascensionpress.com for any of these questions. And if you have a subject that you would like me to address, love to hear from you. And I mean that literally, love to hear from you. Can I pray for you? In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, amen. God, I thank you today so much. I thank you for the gospel. I thank you for changing my life. I thank you for giving me purpose. I thank you for allowing me to work within your tremendous plan to save the world. Lord, help me to be a better listener. Help those who are

listening to this show to become better listeners as we are out in the field evangelizing and sharing the good news of the gospel. May we truly be ambassadors and representatives of you. in day-to-day life. We pray this in Jesus' name. Amen. Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. My friend, go out into the world, be a disciple, start sharing your faith, listen to people, and give them the good news. God bless you. See you next week.