The Jeff Cavins Show (Your Catholic Bible Study Podcast) - Eating with Sinners

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

How do you talk to people about Jesus? Perhaps, you have heard stories of people sharing the Gospel with others at the coffee shop, on an airplane, or some other place. How do you bring up the Gospel with a complete stranger? Jeff Cavins explains the importance of sharing the Gospel and how to start conversations with people you don’t even know. Snippet from the Show “Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests but also to the interests of others” (Philippians 2:3-4). Email us with comments or questions at [e-mail]. Text “jeffcavins” to 33-777 to subscribe and get Jeff’s shownotes delivered straight to your email! Or visit ascensionpress.com/thejeffcavinsshow for full shownotes!

Welcome to the Jeff Kaven Show, where we talk about the Bible, discipleship, and evangelization, putting it all together in living as activated disciples. This is show 363, eating with sinners. Welcome to the show, or should I say welcome to the table today. Kidding. Today we're going to talk about eating with sinners. And before we get into that, I just want to welcome you and let you know how much I appreciate you joining me every single week to talk about things that are related to discipleship and Bible study, walking with the Lord, understanding the way he thinks, and being disciples in the modern world are what I like to call activated disciples. That's going beyond the learning and it's actually living the life of a disciple following Jesus on. a daily basis. This is going to be good today. And this comes from some requests that I have been receiving lately about, Jeff, how do you talk to people? Because I'm always talking to people about

the Lord. It doesn't matter where I'm at. It could be on an airplane flight. It could be at an airport. It could be at a restaurant. It could be in parking lot of Walmart. Wherever I go, there always seems to be opportunities to engage people in conversation. And a lot of times it leads to a cup of coffee and sometimes it leads to dinner. And so people have been asking, how do you do that? What should I do? How can I start to do that type of thing? And so I got to thinking, why not talk about this a bit, you know?

And so today we're going to talk about eating with sinners. That's what it's called eating with sinners. I didn't come up with that, actually. Jesus did. And it's in Luke chapter 5. We'll get into that in just a moment. Hey, if you do want the show notes for all the shows that we're doing here, Well, all you got to do to get them free is text my name, Jeff Kavens, one word, Jeff Kavins,

and you can text it to the number 3377. That's 3377. We'll get you on the list. And if you're not getting them for some reason and you used to, well, glitches can happen here and there, so sign up again. We'll get you back on track. Okay, so we're talking about eating with sinners, and as I said, this came from you, but it also comes from Luke

5, verses 27 through 32, and let me read that to you because this is one of the topics that Jesus was criticized for more than most topics, and that was that he was hanging with tax collectors, sinners, prostitutes, and having dinner, and

it sure caught the attention of the religious elite. They didn't like that at all. And I think it gets back to their cleanliness rules about being with with Gentiles, but Jesus has kind of blown that right out of the water because his righteousness is more powerful than the effects of the sin in the world. He has nothing to be afraid of, and we don't either. And as in all situations, depending on people's age and your circumstances,

be prudent in everything that you do. So here's what it says in Luke chapter 5. Jesus saw a tax collector named Levi, sitting at the customs post. He said to him, follow me. And leaving everything behind, he got up and followed him. Then Levi gave a great banquet for him in his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors, and others were at the table with him. So you get the idea here so far. Jesus has had an impact on Matthew, Levi,

and Levi now is going to hold a bit of a party and invite all of his fellow tax collectors over and Jesus is going to join all these people who some would call sinners. He's going to invite them to eat with Jesus. Jesus is going to join them is what I'm trying to say. So then it goes on and says the Pharisees, they're always spying on Jesus. The Pharisees and their scribes complain to his disciples saying, why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners? And Jesus said to them in reply,

Those who are healthy do not need a physician but the sick do. I have not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners. Now that's a good thing to think about right there when you think about the percentage of time that you have dinner with those who don't need a physician versus the times that you get together with people who actually need a physician because they're sick and they are lost. And this reading calls people tax collectors and sinners. So I ask that question.

Eating with sinners. Why does Jesus eat with sinners? Eating with sinners. What do you talk about when you get together with sinners for dinner? Now in Matthew 22, Jesus was asked, teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law? He said to them, God with all of your heart, with all of your soul, and with all of your mind, this is the

great and first commandment, and a second is like it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets. I like that. And I think I've told you before that Jesus is not coming up with number one and number two as if they don't have any relationship to each other. Number one, love the Lord your God with all of your heart and with all your soul and mind is connected to the Second Commandment, which is to love your neighbor as yourself. How are they connected? Well, one of the methods that Jesus uses in his teaching is this comparison. And it's comparing two things together. And so when he says, love the Lord your God with all of your heart, well, the question naturally comes up, how in the world do I do that? I can't see God.

physically, that is. And so Jesus is making a point, and that is the way that you love the Lord your God is you love your neighbor as yourself. So, you know, talking to people is one way of loving God. When you love a sinner, when you have a meal with a sinner and you share your life with a sinner with the hopes of them coming to know God, well, that's one way of loving God. And I love God by loving this person that I'm talking to. So there's always a relationship there. In fact, there should always be a relationship between our relationship with God and how we treat people and how we interact with people.

You've got to wonder about Christians who say that they love God, but they will have absolutely nothing to do with anybody who is contrary to their own lifestyle. I don't get that, honestly. I don't get it. I'm familiar with it. I've been around it for over four decades, and I never got it. And that is that I love God with all my heart, but being with you, forget it. And that seems to be so contrary to what Jesus is saying here.

Okay, so let's talk about this. Having dinner with sinners, eating with sinners, talking to sinners, let's talk about it. I would say this. I'm going to take you through just a few things that I think are pointers. This is not by any means the definitive talk on how you, you eat with sinners. But these are some pointers. And maybe we'll do another show on it later and if we get some more feedback from you,

maybe we'll go into it deeper, okay? Hey, by the way, if you do, my email is the Jeff Kaven Show at ascensionpress.com. The Jeff Kaven Show at ascensionpress.com. That's it. Let me know if you want to go deeper into this, okay? And if you do, you can do that or you can go to Apple or wherever you hear the podcast and give it a like, make some comments. and I get those as well.

So that's the way we can communicate. All right. Number one, I don't talk to sinners. That's a good way to begin. I don't talk to sinners. I mean two things with that. Number one, I talk with people. Okay?

I talk with people everywhere I go, every situation I get into and it seems to open itself up to me. I talk with people. I don't talk with sinners. I talk with people who are created in the image and likeness of, God. They're valuable in God's eyes. And if they're valuable in God's eyes, then they need to be

valuable in my eyes. And I think that they are valuable in God's eyes. And he has entrusted me with the opportunity to do as much as I can to serve and communicate the truth with them in a very loving, genuine way, not some kind of weird way, like some kind of far out weirdo. Nobody wants to talk to a weirdo like that. So I don't talk to sinners. I talk to people who are created in the image and likeness of God. I talk with people. I talk with people, not to people. So my conversations with people usually start by either bringing up the news or something they are reading or a comment I overhear or you have something in common with them. You're standing in a line. You're waiting for your car oil to be changed at the dealership.

You are at the Minnesota Twins or Vikings game and it's pregame and you're talking to the person next to you. And so I typically just start off all of my conversations the way anybody would start a conversation and that is commonality, the things that we have in common, the things that we are experiencing at this time in our history in the United States, the cost of milk, whatever it might be. So I try to find out if there is something to talk. talk about. I love this quote that C.S. Lewis gave one time. He said, there are no ordinary people. Now, isn't that true? Man, that's something to remember when it comes to striking up conversations

with people. There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. It is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit. Immortal. horrors of everlasting splendors. That's an amazing quote. And I think what he's trying to get across there is that when you are out there in the world and you are engaging with people, it's important to remember that there are no ordinary people. You never talk to a mere mortal.

They're immortal. They're going to live forever and ever somewhere, either with God or without God. Now, I don't go into every conversation with the attitude that I'm going to convert someone. But I do know that I'm equipped to talk about the solution to life's problems. I'm equipped. And the key here is the corigma, which you've heard me talk about forever. So I'm not always going into a conversation with the idea of, in five minutes from now, we're going to get to the point where we pray and you're going to give your life to God.

No, I am equipped at any point on any topic to bring it around to Jesus, if that seems like that is what we need to do at that time. Again, don't be weird. Now, the charygma is the proclamation of the good news. And what I find interesting about Jesus' command is that he says, go and proclaim the gospel to every creature. He doesn't take the time in the gospel to spell out what the gospel is. It's implied that they know what the gospel is, and it should be understood that every Catholic knows what the gospel is at a starting point. The early church knew the gospel.

They memorized the gospel, and they talked about it at the water cooler, at the gas station, or the camel station, and everywhere else, and they knew how to communicate the gospel in various situations. That's the advantage of the early church, and it's something, man, we need to learn this. Parents, you've got to teach your children the gospel. CCD teachers, you've got to teach people to gospel. Prep for confirmation, marriage prep, learn the gospel. The gospel was not someone's opinion.

It wasn't something that was voted on. It wasn't a social movement. The gospel, the good news, was the ultimate message from heaven that cut through. the depression and anxiety of the people, the gospel cut through the division and knocked down the walls between people. The gospel was the map to eternal life and gave the key to life here on earth. So let me go through this real quickly for you. Then we're going to take a break. This show, I'm not going to go into the corigma any kind of detail, but I do want to just mention it to you because, as I said, I don't go into every conversation thinking that I'm going to

convert someone, but I am equipped at any point to bring it in that direction, and you should be too. So allow me to take a moment to repeat what the gospel is, the corigma, the good news, the proclamation. Here it is. Number one, God loves you and has a plan for your life. That's the truth. Sin number two, sin will destroy you and ruin God's plan for your life. That's the truth. Every problem you've ever run into out there has its roots in sin. Every family that collapsed, every addiction. It has its origin in sin. That's the truth. Number three, Christ Jesus died to save you. That's how much he loved you. That's the truth. He says, number four, repent and believe the gospel. That's the truth. I know you don't like the word repent. So we will change that

with what the catechism says, and the catechism says, a radical reorienting of your life to Jesus. Okay. Number five, be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. That's the truth. Number six, abide in Christ in his body, the church. That is the truth. And then at the final end, go and make disciples yourself. That's the truth. That is the gospel. Now, we need to figure out how we will adapt our language to the situations and the people that we meet. That is the art of evangelization. There is no sneaky way to do it. There is no magic. It's a strange. straightforward command left in our lap. We can choose to do it, excuse it away, or ignore it, but one day, listen, one day we will give an account of our life. And on that day, we will be very aware that this message was the most important message during our time on earth, and we would do anything, anything for a do-over. Trust me on that one.

You're listening to The Jeff Kaven Show. Hi there, I just wanted to hop in real quick to tell you about a great way to listen to both Bible in ear and Catechism in Year. It's called the Ascension App. Not only does the app contain the entirety of both podcasts, it also includes transcripts of each episode, the full text of the Great Adventure Bible and the Ascension Catechism, over 1,000 answers to tough Bible questions we couldn't get to in the podcast, bonus content from the Bible and ear companion, and so much more. This app really enhances the experience of the podcasts and helps you get more out of the Bible and Catechism. I highly encourage you to check it out in the app store. Just search Ascension app or text the letters APP to the number 71391 to get a download link sent directly to your phone. Thank you so much again for being part of this community and God bless.

Welcome back. We're talking about how to share Christ with people, how to have dinner with people. And we call this show Eating with Sinners. Now, I don't eat with sinners. I eat with people who are created in the image and likeness of God. And if there is sin, if there's something in people's lives, they don't know the Lord or they are continually making devastating choices in their life. I pray that a conversation can move around to what is the answer, which is the gospel message.

And I've got to learn all seven of those points, and I've got to make it mine so I can just move right into a conversation. And you do too. It's incumbent upon all of us. The next point I want to bring up is that I don't judge them based on their outer appearance. I could care less. In fact, I've got a tattoo ministry. And the more tattoos someone has, the more I can read their heart. I can learn things like tattoos, but I don't have a tattoo. I don't ever plan on having a tattoo. Oh, I do have one. And it's a tattoo in my heart. It's a picture of Jesus. But I can learn you know, by looking at tattoos, but I don't judge them. My job is to get to know them.

So I cannot decide whether I'm interested in this person that I'm talking to. That was one of the comments that I got from someone. They asked the question, I think it's a good question. Thank you. And that was that the people that I was talking to are not people that I would normally be interested in. I feel like I might be faking it. Well, I see where you're coming from on that. But if Jesus had that attitude towards us, we might be in trouble.

I mean, maybe I'm not that interesting. Maybe people wouldn't want to hang around with me. But loving people and evangelization and being a human being in the kingdom of God means that you are inherently interested in people. Because God is interested in people. He so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son to die for us. So I cannot decide whether I'm interested in this person or not. That's really not for me when I'm faced with a hurting person.

What is in it for me? That's what a lot of people ask. They say, what is in it for me? I don't see anything that's an advantage for me to talk to this person. But that's not the attitude of a disciple. Listen to what Paul said. And I'll put this in the show notes for you. Philippians 2, verses 3 and 4, Paul said, do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility,

count others better than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. I like that. I like that. That's the way we are to look at one another in humility, count others better than yourselves. And try to remain sensitive. to the Holy Spirit when you're doing this and what the Spirit might be saying. Now, if you're brand new at this, that might seem like kind of a big deal, and I guess it is, but that's something to aim at, and that is be sensitive to the Holy Spirit. Ask the Holy Spirit to give you warnings about don't go in that area, or go into that area, or in some cases, there's a word of knowledge about a person.

And that happened to me several times where I was talking to someone and the Lord gave me a word of knowledge about them. And when I said it to them, they completely fell apart, weeping and knew that God was speaking to them. So try to remain sensitive to the Holy Spirit. And if that doesn't make sense at this point in your walk, then pray, Lord, Holy Spirit, make me more sensitive. As I grow in my faith, help me to become more, more sensitive. sensitive to your voice during my day.

So the third thing I would say is that a conversation with people, whether it's at the coffee shop or a parking lot or wherever or a waiting room, is a conversation is about discovery. You really don't even have to have a lot in common to get a good conversation going. And most of the conversations that I have with people, I have very little in common with them. but it is a conversation about discovery. And I usually pray, Lord, may they share what they need to share and help me to remain sensitive to what they have on their heart. And conversations are not just about witnessing.

People are fascinating. So get to know them. I really mean that. People are fascinating. More so than any computer or any art exhibit or any sporting event, it's just a person created in the image and likeness of God is so fascinating. And so you can, when you're talking to someone and you get into a conversation that starts, as I said, with something in common or something, you know, the news of the day or whatever

it might be. And you actually get into a little bit of a conversation of, well, where do you live? Oh, I'm up over in, you know, up in Oakdale. And, oh, yeah, I'm right next door to you over there. one of the ways that you can open up a conversation after the initial howdy-do is tell me about yourself now those are words that people like to hear tell me about yourself and you know why that that's important because a lot of people feel that nobody's interested in them they come face to face with people who have such egos and they have themselves on their mind all they want to do is

talk about themselves. And people who need the Lord don't have a lot of time to listen to people who want to talk about themselves. So oftentimes I'll just say to them, tell me about yourself. And you know what? People will. They will. Genuinely be interested in what God has created here.

Tell me about yourself. Well, I'm this and this. Really? And you have children. You see, it's questions. Questions were key in Jesus' communication. I have a study about the 12 ways that Jesus employed questions in his communication. Jesus was a master at using questions.

So you could say, tell me about yourself. And then, so how many kids do you have? Oh, you have grandchildren. And what's their name? Where do you work? What do you do? Wow. You can really get interested in somebody.

You know what I said to my wife? I don't think I've ever mentioned this to you. But I said, we have a pond outside of our back door. And it's like Grand Central Pond. Everybody walks around this pond. And I said to my wife the other day, I said, I want to put a card table out next to the path. And I want to put a sign on it that just says, I want to get to know you. And I said to Emily, I said, you know what?

We would run into some of the most fascinating stories. if we would just listen to people. I might do that. I just might do that. Paul said to the Corinthians in chapter 10, 1 Corinthians 1024, let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. That's what conversation's about.

The good of your neighbor. So listening, you know, really is a gift, isn't it? Listening is a gift. You know people in your life that are good listeners, and then you probably know people in your life that are like, no, not so much. They don't listen very well. And don't think about what you want to say as they are talking. You know why? People are not dumb. They know when you are listening or biting your time. They know it. They can see your mouth moving like you're going to say something. You're just waiting to get in. That tells them you're not listening to me in the same way they can tell by your eyes that you would like to be somewhere else. so another thing to point out here is this listen to their questions or listen to their quandary let them explain their worldview let them explain their question or a problem they might be

facing don't feel like you have to solve the problem in one cup of coffee you know this may take five or six cups of coffee distributed over several weeks you don't have to feel like you got to close this whole deal not selling insurance that we're talking about here The other thing, too, on top of this is speak with honor and respect. Treat people with dignity. They should feel important around you, not less than you. They are already conditioned to think that they will be judged by Christians. A minute they find out that you're a Christian, they're waiting for it, here it comes, serve it.

Yes, you're judging me. That's the way they feel. I know I've had dinner with lots of sinners. Lots of people who are created in the image and likeness. of God. Romans 1210, Paul said, love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. So if you're going to get into a contest with someone, outdo them in showing honor to the other person. He also told the Philippians in chapter 2 and verse 3, do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves. I love that

scripture. Sometimes I just read that and think, wow, Paul's amazing. And then number four, the fourth point I want to share with you, when it comes to sharing the gospel, I find that it is best to share something after they have stated a point of pain or a question. I don't typically go into the gospel with people in a conversation, especially people that I just met, until a question is raised, until a point of pain is raised, until they become inquisitive. Or you just get that sense from the Holy Spirit that this person's really struggling. And when I share with people the gospel, the charygma, I have my own way of articulating that God loves you and has an amazing plan for your life. And I usually start by using my own life as the

canvas that when I first heard that God loved me and that he had a plan for my life, it hit me like a brick. I'd never heard that before. And be honest, I was looking for a plan. And then I ran into myself. And that's when I realized that my own sin, my own shortcomings, my own, you know, behavior has kept me from this, this great plan. So I can talk to people even about using myself as the object here rather than saying, you have sinned. God has a plan for you, but you sinned, and you need to repent, and you need to get baptized, and you need to get filled with the Holy Spirit. Yeah, that conversation is going to go far. So start with your life.

If there's anything in common, can you build a relationship based on commonality there? Can you talk about what's happened in your own life? Describe in your own words what turning to the Lord in their situation would look like. Help people understand what repentance would look like or a radical reorientation of your life. Give examples of other people that you know of or read about. final point number five if you offer to pray for them don't do it in front of everyone else in the coffee shop that might be something that's easy for you trust me that is not comfortable to someone who's new at this don't do it most people would be uncomfortable with that you can offer to pray out by their car

or as you leave the building or i say i'm going to keep you in my prayers this week but don't embarrass people Don't put people in a position where they've never been before, especially in public. So, again, we're not talking to sinners, but talking with people that God created in his image and likeness. If this has been any benefit to you, go ahead and like it and leave comments. We would appreciate that. And if you do have questions, you want me to go further with this? I'll leave it up to you. you can get a hold of me.

The Jeff Caven Show at ascensionpress.com. The Jeff Cavan Show at ascensionpress.com. Let's pray. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Lord Jesus. Oh, we love you so much. We thank you, Lord, for giving us life. We thank you for giving us love, the taste of heavenly love. You've asked us to share this with other people.

Lord, we need to be smart about it. We need your wisdom and insight. Give us the courage, Lord. to do the things we never thought we would do, to speak to people we never thought we'd speak to, and to say things we never thought we would say, give us courage, Lord, you told us to do it, and all we can believe is your courage will follow. To you be all the glory. And we ask for an intercession from our lady.

He is the queen of evangelization, our lady of Guadalupe, hell Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit. of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. I love you, my friend. I really do. I'll be praying for you. Pray for me. Look forward already to talk to you next week.