The Jeff Cavins Show (Your Catholic Bible Study Podcast) - Forgiveness In Belfast Northern Ireland

Episode Date: April 26, 2018

They murdered his grandfather then labeled him a terrorist for being Catholic. His best friend’s dad was shot dead in front of his six children. This is Joe Mckeown’s story of growing up Catholic in the chaos of Belfast, Northern Ireland. Listen as he shares his journey to healing, peace, and ultimately forgiveness.

You're listening to the Jeff Kavana show. Episode 61, Forgiveness in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Hey, I'm Jeff Kavans. How do you simplify your life? How do you study the Bible? All the way from motorcycle trips to raising kids, we're going to talk about the faith and life in general. It's the Jeff Kaven show. Hey, welcome to the show, coming to you all the way from Belfast, Northern Ireland, a little bit different for this show. I've had the opportunity to lead a group of pilgrims from Canada, United States, to Ireland. We're doing a great pilgrimage, just really getting in touch with our Irish brothers and sisters. And for the last few days, we've been in Belfast,

Northern Ireland, and we are going to be meeting our friends in Dublin for the rest of the pilgrimage. We have about 30 more joining this group. And it's just been a fantastic time in, in Belfast, Northern Ireland. You know, when you think of Belfast, at least for me, I think about the news growing up and always hearing about what is oftentimes called the Troubles, 1968 all the way till 1969, rather, right around there until 1998. Just tremendous troubles between Catholics and Protestants.

And to be honest with you, I didn't really understand. stand it. And I've been to Belfast a couple of times now, and I've been a part of the Catholic community there. A few years ago, I did a big conference, and I just finished another conference in Belfast. And

I have come to know my brothers and sisters there in such a beautiful way. And I want to introduce you to one of my friends on this show today who was a part of this troubling time in Belfast, Northern Ireland. And

lost family members, but Jesus Christ did an amazing job in his life of healing him and bringing him to a place where he could actually forgive. You're going to be inspired, I think, by his story. And while I'm here, I just want to bring you that amazing story. His name is Joe McEwen, and we're going to be talking to him. I had him share a little bit with our group, and I recorded it, and I want to share it with you. I have backing up just for a moment. I want to thank you for being a part of the show, but I also want to thank you for ranking the show on iTunes and Amazon and Google Play and it really means an awful lot. If you have any questions, particularly about this show today, you can write me at the Jeff Kaven Show at ascensionpress.com. And if you hear

some noise in the backgrounds, because I'm in a hotel and there's noise all around me, interestingly enough, I'm in the same hotel that is considered by Wikipedia. and everybody else as the most bombed hotel in Europe. It's called Europa. And another interesting point is a Game of Thrones is wrapping up in the footage out here in Northern Ireland. And so this is the hotel that many of the stars are staying at. So it's kind of an interesting place to be right now. Well, as I was mentioning before, when I was growing up from the late 60s until, of course, late 90s,

We heard about this time of troubles, as they call it, in Northern Ireland. And all we heard about was really Protestants against Catholics, Catholics against Protestants. And I don't want to get into all of that in the history of it. I do know after being here that it's not really Catholic and Protestant in terms of Catholics sitting down and going over their theology and Protestants going over their theology and saying, yeah, we're going to kill each other. No, it goes way back, way back. In fact, I think Wikipedia is a good source of the history between Britain and Ireland over the years and the trouble that they have experienced.

In this time period from the late 60s to the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, over 3,600 people died. Over 3,100 men, a little over 300 women were killed. 80,000 people were injured. And most of us remember the big day, Bloody Sunday in Derry in Northern Ireland, January 30th, 1972, 28 people died. And interestingly enough, YouTube, the rock group, Bono wrote that song, Sunday, Bloody Sunday, which spoke of that conflict. And I never really understood how bad.

deep that conflict was, or the results of that conflict until my last two trips to Belfast, Northern Ireland and being with my Catholic brothers and sisters, but also being with Protestant brothers and sisters as well, and seeing what they have gone through and the aftermath of this. We're talking about alcoholism. We're talking about depression. We're talking about suicide. I just spoke yesterday at a high school in Northern Ireland where a lady came up to me and she said, she said that in our city outside of Belfast, just this little city, 18 teenagers have committed suicide in the last year or so. Just it's really, you know, a lot of drugs and broken families due to all that happened in Belfast,

Northern Ireland. Well, in the middle of it, we have a story of my good friend Joe McEwell. and I want to share that story with you. Prior to sharing that story, I want to just say one thing, and that is this. We had a guide bring us through Belfast, and they brought us right to the heart of the conflict in St. Patrick's Cathedral, where people were murdered right around there. And I asked the guide, I said, how did this all stop? I mean, what was the trigger for it stopping?

And you know what she said? She said, we just had enough. We just had enough. We were sick of it. We were sick of the news, sick of our children dying, sick of our parents dying. We just had enough. And I want to address that after Joe shares with you. And so I'm not going to talk anymore. I want to turn it over to Joe. This is what Joe shared with our group when we, we were at the hotel in Belfast, Northern Ireland, about his own experience, Joe McKeown. Hi, everyone, my name is Joe McKeown, and I was born in 1979, and I was born in the chaos,

some of the chaos that you've seen here. I was born in 1970 in the day, Margaret Thatcher became the British Prime Minister, and she didn't like this part of the world very much. My earliest memory as a two-year-old was my dad leaving me in a prom during a riot, and the chaos with army and police shouting. And just remember, a child having this memory of just madness around me.

Growing up in the early 80s, it was normal. You were hearing bombs going off in the background. My street, soldiers with guns walking up and down the street, for my mom and dad to leave our street, you were stopped at the top of the street. Police would make you get out of the car, ask you where you were going. So everything I'd done was growing up in quite a militarised song.

So it was normal, but weird. Like, I would have loved to have been a teenager in the States where it was slightly different. In 1988, playing football one day, there was a funeral where three IRA men were being buried and two British soldiers drove into the community. And my community during the funeral took the soldier out of the car, stripped them, tortured them and executed them

in front of everybody. And it made the word white news. I remember my granny and my mum crying their eyes out watching, saying, what are our people doing? So people from my community brutalised to all our human beings and it was messy. I remember as a 10-year-old sort of watching them thinking, why are they crying at the enemy being killed?

So as a child, I couldn't understand my granny and my mum's pain. Going on through the years, normal is reading the newspaper or hearing the news, a Catholic has been shot out in West Belfast. A Protestant has been killed in a bomb. The Europa Hotel was blown up last night. Thank God that hasn't happened in a while.

But the conflict was every day and it was fear. And I lived in fear. One day in 1993, my best friend his dad was shot dead. Protestant terrorists went into his house, shot him six times in front of six children

in the moment. And it wrecked me and I was angry with my parents and my parents sat me down and told me a story that kept from me. Before I was born, my grandfather in 1972, he owned three corner shops in West Belfast. He was a businessman. One day when he went out to work, there was a rad on the road the night before and there was debris in the road barbed wire. He got out of his fan to remove the debris so he could park his fan outside his green grocers, the corner shop, and a British Army sniper shot him once in the head for no other reason for him being a Catholic. When he was killed, my granny and my dad and all were in holiday. They were just children. My granny had

six children, all under 13 and 72. And they were told by the police. your father had been killed. But not only did they kill them, kill my grandfather, they stole his name. They said he was a terrorist, they said. He was an airy gunman with a machine gun. So they took his name and destroyed my family name. My granny, when she spoke to the media,

she spoke very eloquently for a working class woman, she said, not only has my husband's life been taken, but his name has been taken in an equally callous manner. And I thought that was lovely of her to say a big word like Callas. But it wrecked my family. It led to some of my family developing addictions to alcohol, my uncles. It led to my granny, Diane, quite an anxious woman. I had a cancer quite young with all the stress, bringing up six children.

But it led to a family hating people that didn't know. It led to this tragic event wrecking a family. It led to me when I found out about this as a 13, 14-year-old boy. being angry, being politicised. I started to go out in rat, throw stones, throw Molotov cocktails at the policing army. I wanted to get revenge for what the British Army was done to me, what Protestant terrorists have done to my best friend, Mickey.

This went on, actually, and even around me at that time, my community were blowing up people in the Protestant community, and face first there was gun battles where people were getting into the pubs and bars and shooting innocent Catholics a couple of priests were killed as well just beside our cathedral where they were shot by in the same way my grandfather was shot by British snipers

and said they were gunmen the conflict was really really messy and painful I was wrecked at impact on my life where I ended up drink drugs and just lots of bad choices and just I was messy around 1998 I got to do one thing positive we had our good Friday agreement and the good Friday agreement was initiated through the Clinton administration America had really made a massive difference here and it helped me in my faith it helped me think

about hope for the first time but also America fueled the conflict Irish terrorists from here used to go to America in New York to Boston say the poor Catholics were being a by the British and America gave millions and the IRA went but weapons and explosives in Libya and brought it back here and killed lots of people. The IRA actually killed more Catholics and the Protestants and the British put together. So it was a messy conflict and the story told about it often isn't a balanced one. But the heat I had was eating me alive. It was almost like a cancer inside where I was really, really angry. I'd lost a lot of friends through suicide and depression and even in the troubles.

And around that time, I needed God. I was one of them Catholics that believed in God, but even I didn't practice at that stage. The Christiano movement, I don't know if you know Christian, but my mum and dad, I came back from a party about four in the morning one night, and they convinced my friends and made it do a Christian weekend. for my life from someone that had no qualifications in school someone that had no hope someone that was broken and fully hate and anger I heard a different story I ended up one day at a youth group I went to I met a nun in a pub who meets

a nun in a pub and she was a principal in a school I was at and she said Joe we need leaders will you help me with a youth group and I said you can't say no to a nun especially in a pub I said Yes. And the youth group had got involved in. They've done a program what was called a community relations or peace building program. And the facilitator put lots of flags and emblems out on the floor. And one of the emblems or flags was the British flag, the union jack. And the facilitators just lift a symbol that causes a reaction. So I lifted the union flag because I associated it with the people that killed my grandfather.

And the facility was asking people to speak. As it came to me to speak, I started crying uncontrollably. And in front of girls. A guy doesn't cry in front of girls. And I did. And I don't know if I told Jeff and Emily this, but I actually swore and said, Lee's beep, took my grandfather.

And I cried and cried. And I felt God's ascending me, Joe, I need you to be involved in peacemaking instead of throwing stones, throwing petrol bombs. I need you to be speaking love instead of hate. And I said, okay, God, well, you need to lead the way because I don't have the courage, I don't know what to do. And through youth work and through some of the church programs,

I started meeting Protestants for the first time. And they read Bibles. Catholics don't read Bibles. It was learning things about them. They were saying things to be like, am I saved? I didn't know. I was like, I don't know. Maybe I'm not. But one thing that was happened through them relationships

was I was starting to see that Protestants weren't these evil people that I heard in my community, they weren't bad, they liked football, they liked music that I liked. And it started to break down barriers and I started to question the stories that I've been told. But God also says, I need you to go further. I need you to work in reconciliation. I need you to forgive the British soldier that shot your grandfather. And it brought me on a further journey through some of the programs. I started engaging with people that were ex-combatants terrorists who were now in foreign peace building. One day I found myself in a jacuzzi with a British soldier, an RA Catholic terrorist, a UVF

Protestant terrorist, talking about life, normal stuff like football, but also talking about the bad things we've done and about peace building. And I realised at that stage in my life, I need to do more. the people like Andrew, this British soldier, who he represents all the evil that killed my grandfather. I feel nervous sitting in this place with him, a jacuzzi. You should feel nervous in a jacuzzi with three fellas, especially when they're dodgy guys like that.

But I felt cold, and I felt the spirit moved me to do something. And I befriended Andrew and kind of, I wanted him to help me to forgive the soldier that shot my grandfather and to help me to go on a journey of forgiveness. And through a relationship, I started bringing Andrew around to my house. You can imagine my dad lost his father, my aunts and uncles, and there's a British soldier that used to oppress my community, sitting having cups of tea, and talking about what happened.

I went on an investigative journey and got, the public records weren't allowed to be released for 30 years after an event. So my granddaughter died in 72, which meant it was 2002 before we seen the records. Andrew the Bray shoulder talked me through and says, Look, Joe, a soldier that shot your granddaughter. It was a good shot. He knew what he was doing. It was wrong.

It was bad. He says, Joe, the forensics from the place your grandad didn't have a gun, it says here there was no gun. Your grandma didn't have a military. Like the IRA used to bury people that are members and call him martyr. And we knew that. We knew as a family that my granddaughter wasn't involved. He was a family man.

Loved sport. Loved his wife. with his children and for your life and your name to be taken was horrible. So I went on a quest of truth and love. And Sam 85, it talks about actually, mercy, love, truth, and justice, all having a big hug. And I was playing around with the tension of that.

What does truth look like? I wanted to find out, McGranda didn't kill anybody. But he also wanted to find out why did the soldier shoot McRanda? Through the British soldier, Andrew, my friend, We looked on social media. We went to online forums, and I was able to detect. We always thought, in my heart, I always thought it was an English man.

It was easier because Catholics didn't like the English. They're easy not to like. But we found out the soldier was actually from Glasgow that shot my grandfather. He was from a regiment called the Royal Scottish Regiment, the King's Own Guard, as they were called. And that I don't know. I liked Scottish people. I followed a Scottish soccer club. and it was sad to think

it was a Scottish man but even perceptions I always perceived British to be English not Scottish or Welsh but through research it's really hard we've went down the justice route to try and figure out

would the Ministry of Defence want to meet and it's a closed conversation the police the historical inquiries team have helped my family and they've said we don't think your granda was involved in the gun battle. Like the army said, we think your grander was an innocent man. And for to hear a public

office, that this was something set up in the Good Friday Agreement to explore past crimes, to hear them and saying, your grander was innocent was an important step. Recently, actually just this year, the Attorney General, which is the highest office in the judiciary, also looked at my grandda's case and said, your grander was an innocent man. He didn't deserve to die. He was shot for something and lied about. And so for to hear the judiciary saying that really helped us. But also, I think the important thing for me was I wanted to reach out the hand of forgiveness. Like I knew what it was like when God forgive me for all the sins I'd done throwing stones for being hateful, hating British people, hating Protestants. I knew I had to help the guy

that killed McGranda. So currently the journey I'm on is to try and find the guy, that shot my granda and I'm trying to send letters to people to see if people want to enter a truth and reconciliation process so we can sit down and have a coffee and talk about it the reality is the guy he's probably 60 at this stage 18 when he killed my grandfather he might have post-traumatic stress disorder he may be dead he may have committed suicide may have a drugs and drink problem on his third marriage and I wanted to say look I'm sorry about the conflict here. I'm sorry that all are here brought you here. I'm sorry what you did

to my grandma. I feel called to reach out and say sorry to my neighbour. And I'm doing it all the time with my friends from the Protestant community and people I've thrown stones at, people I've attacked verbally, even politically, just my thoughts and feelings about the other side. I'm consciously always trying to say, sorry. And even when I see all their conversations, conflicts around the world, they're not always black and white. The people you see throwing stones maybe in the news in Palestine at the Israeli forces. That was me. And it was a game.

It wasn't about trying to kill people. It was about everyone else is doing it. It was like it was a game. But God literally, I know in today's gospel we looked at the Damascus story of Paul. For me, I really was a young person that was fully hate, violent through. throwing stones, throwing petrol bombs at the policing army. And God brought me to a place where actually I was doing the opposite. I was trying to bring people together.

My day job now, I work in an inter-church organisation and my role is trying to train leaders and communities to be the best people that can be, but also to try and make Catholics and Protestants like each other. They realise that we are, we're a community in Ireland that's still suffering. The church in Ireland is broken at the minute. The people in Ireland are broken. people in Ireland are broken. We have a peace process. It's 20 years. 94% of our education

system is still segregated. Catholics go to one school, Protestants go to another. Catholics go to one bus stop, Protestants go to another. Catholics live there, Protestants live here. It's literally like the train tracks in Mississippi. It's a divided community. And in Belfast alone, like it's modern city, we've 26 miles of peace walls and fences defying communities you can do a marathon of division but where the were the tourist attraction in Europe at the minute Europe's a lovely at Belfast's the top city in Europe to visit at the minute but what I want to say to you is I've only give you a brief aspect of my story tonight just to talk about some of the pain I could

have went in the deeper but unconscious of time but what I would love used to be is to people the challenges conflict the people of reconciliation Sometimes people think about peace building being about going to Syria or going to Iraq and trying to make amends, but it starts individually. It's like saying, I forgive my brother that hurt me. I forgive that lady in church that said that to me. I forgive my boss for undermining me. We need to start reconciliation at the lowest possible level because what happened in Northern Ireland, what happened to Belfast was conflict started at the lowest. possible level. It was disagreements between individuals. And it became groups. And it became

religious groups. And then all of a sudden it became an armed conflict. And our modern conflict is only 30 years. But really, Ireland has been in conflict with the British for about 800. It's been, we're entrenched. And even all the stereotypes you see in America off the fight in Irish, we love a fight. So there's something in our blood that needs change. But we need used to people of hope? Well, as you can tell, that's an amazing story. Joe McKeon, who's become a good friend of mine, his wife, Paula, is very involved in bringing the Catholic faith to people. And I've got to tell you that in the times that I've been in Belfast, Northern Ireland, I'm feeling like it's a place of revival. It's a place of revival. And I have been thinking a lot about this

as I've been traveling through Ireland this week. You know, they have given us so much. And United States. Joe's family, Paul's family, and others throughout the years, they have given us so much. Many of us would say that our lives have been impacted by the Irish. Our schools, our colleges, our parish names have been influenced by the work that has taken place in Ireland. But you know what? They're in trouble, and we need to pray for our brothers and sisters in Ireland. Do you know that 20 years ago in the seminary, there were 400 men in the seminary today? Seven. Seven. Something's wrong. We need to pray for them. And I'm going to encourage you to lift up Ireland right now in your prayers. Coming up in May, they have a referendum, and they are going to be voting on legalizing abortion.

Can you imagine that? Legalizing abortion. Now, in 1979, Pope John Paul II came and he spoke at Phoenix Park in Dublin, 1.5 million people. In fact, I'll put a picture of it in the show notes of the place where he said mass. And I have to ask myself, is Ireland listening to his words? Are they responding to the message that the Holy Father gave them back in 1979? This year, Pope Francis is going to return, the second Pope that will be, in Ireland, and I've been invited to that, and I'm planning on going and sharing in Ireland, but I'm just asking you, pray for Ireland, pray for Northern Ireland, pray for those who have

been hurt and those who have been devastated by the conflict, particularly in Belfast, from 68, 69, all the way to 98. And it's not all gone. I mean, there's still a bit of attention. You know, if you grew up in this, as Joe was saying, you know. You know. You know. And you know. and you still experience that pain. Pray for people to be healed. Alcoholics, drug users, you know, marriages restored. Obviously not everybody has had their life destroyed, but many have, and we need to pray for Northern Ireland,

and we need to pray for the Republic of Ireland, particularly concerning this issue of abortion. Will you do that with me? I appreciate that. I just, I wanted to bring you on the road with me while I was leading a group on pilgrimage. Once again, you can get a hold of me at the Jeff Caven Show at ascensionpress.com. And I really appreciate getting your feedback and your comments and topics that you'd like to hear, even if I'm on, even if I'm on the road.

Let me pray. In the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, Lord, I thank you for my brother Joe who's sharing his heart today and what you did in his heart through a Curseo weekend and how you broke through the darkness and the pain and restored him. We lift up all of our brothers and sisters in Ireland right now and we pray not only for a restoration due to the troubles in Northern Ireland, but we also pray for all of our brothers and sisters in the Republic of Ireland

that, Lord, a revival would take place, that we would show our gratitude for all that they have given us by praying for them and lifting them up to you. Our Mother, our Blessed Mother, pray for them. Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners. Now and at the hour of our death, amen. St. Patrick, pray for us. Amen. In name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, look forward to talking to you next week. Thank you.