The Jeff Cavins Show (Your Catholic Bible Study Podcast) - Meet My Friends: Marcus Grodi

Episode Date: August 2, 2019

Founder of The Coming Home Network, and host of The Journey Home program on EWTN, Marcus Grodi stops in to chat with Jeff Cavins. They talk about sola scriptura, how Marcus went from a Presbyterian minister to a Catholic, the thousands of people who have found their way back to the Catholic Church through The Coming Home Network, and some of the challenges that converts face. Snippet from the Show “Most people say the Bible is the pillar and bulwark of truth. But what does the Bible say the pillar and bulwark of truth is? 1 Timothy 3:15 points out that the pillar and bulwark of truth is the Church.” SHOWNOTES 1 Timothy 3:15 - “If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” Resources * Newman’s Apologia Pro Vita Sua (http://www.newmanreader.org/works/apologia/index.html) * The Coming Home Network (https://chnetwork.org/)

This is the Jeff Kaven Show. Another episode of Meet My Friends. Today we're going to meet Marcus Grotai. Hey, I'm Jeff Kavins. How do you simplify your life? How do you study the Bible? All the way from motorcycle trips to raising kids, we're going to talk about the faith and life in general.

It's the Jeff Kaven Show. Hey, I want to welcome you back to the show this week. And every once in a while, we throw in a special episode. where I want you to meet my friends because I've got some really good, good friends and oftentimes introducing my friends to others' results in fruitfulness in the kingdom of God. Oftentimes it provides an answer to questions that you have and in some situations, resources that you've been looking for and you just didn't know where to find them. Now, I know that many of you have loved ones who have left the Catholic Church and you have been

praying for them to come back. Some of you have Protestant friends who have shown a real interest in the Catholic Church. For example, I was just recently at a Bible study that had about 50% Catholics, 50% Protestants, and there were a lot of questions about the Catholic Church. Well, I can't think of a better guy to assist in answering those questions as well as making the path a little bit easier in coming into the Catholic Church and in the case of the Coming Home Network, coming back to the Catholic Church for many people, which was my particular situation. He is the host of EWTN's amazing show, The Journey Home, and he's the founder of the Coming Home Network, a very good friend of mine that I think you need to get to know, Marcus Grotai.

Welcome to the show, Marcus. Thanks, Jeff. What a great privilege not just to be on your show, but always get connected up with you again. We don't see each other enough. well i've been uh i've had the honor of being on your show uh several times and uh and we go way back i mean we go way way back you were the guy that before i even came back to the catholic church i i talked to you uh my bishop uh was a real instrument in bringing me back to the catholic church and you were the one that encouraged me after finding out who you knew bishop paul dudley you you encouraged me to talk to him and and that really was the key in the highway back for me. So I owe an awful lot to you. But I also know that I'm not

the only one that so many people today are looking to the Catholic Church, have questions, theological questions, as well as logistic questions about what people are going to do with their life. But before we get into that, give us a little synopsis of your background and the journey that you were on when you came into the Catholic Church. Yeah. Well, I'll do it as quickly. as possible, Jeff. Of course, the funny thing is, and I know you appreciate this, you know, I've been doing the Journey Home Program now for over 20 years, and if you average that to be 40, 45 interviews a year,

that's a bazillion people that either converted or come back. And when you hear so many stories, then you have to tell yours after a while you can't remember, well, was that a part of somebody else's story? Or was that a part of my story? but I'll just simply say I was brought up my first years of my life we were not churched at all I wasn't baptized until age seven we became Lutheran I was baptized and went through all the hoops of the Lutheran church and I knew the faith really well but it hadn't really made a difference in my heart if you will when I went away to college I'd become very much involved with science

even to the point of denying the reality of God and was totally absorbed in scientific materialism. And then by the mercy of God, actually through the study of science, I was awakened to the reality of God first in creation, knew that there had to be a creator and ordered foundation to everything we see. It was absolutely convincing to me. And then through the witness of a friend and the reading of the gospel of John, I had a, if you will, a born-again experience.

to Jesus Christ at age 21, came back to college. It was all set to go to medical school, but decided to just go into engineering. And then pretty soon my faith had been changed so much. I went to seminary and became a pastor. And never, ever, ever, ever, ever, even for a second, considering the Catholic Church. Never, never crossed my mind. And one reason is I never had a Catholic talk to me about the faith. And I never saw a Catholic in my life who impressed me about becoming a Catholic.

It just never was there. And so I was a pastor. I had no intention of ever becoming Catholic. I was a Presbyterian pastor for 10 years and thought that's where I'd be for the rest of my life. I think the issue that really opened my heart was the fact of standing in a pulpit and realizing more and more and more

that scripture alone just didn't work and realizing that I as a pastor was responsible before God for what I delivered to the people who were coming to hear me every Sunday. What do you mean by Scripture alone? Well, as a Presbyterian pastor, I believe that the sole foundation of our faith was the Bible alone. Okay.

I was blind to the fact that I was seeing it through the lens of my Presbyterian Calvinist tradition, but I believed that I was following Scripture alone. And that was the conundrum because I would get in my pulpit, and I believe that what I was teaching was true. But I also realized began to eat away at me that within a 15-mile radius of my pulpit, there were at least 15 other clergy of other denominations who also believed in Jesus Christ and also believed in the trustworthiness of Scripture. But we were teaching radically different things. And eventually I came to the realization that there was not one single thing that all Christians agree on.

Not one thing, not even who Jesus is, not even about scripture, not about the Trinity, not about the church, not one thing. And that became a crisis for me, along with a number of other issues. And then I resigned from the pastorate, not to become Catholic, but because if I couldn't be certain that what I was teaching was eternally true, I shouldn't be in the pulpit. So you were intellectually very honest. Well, some have said how brave I was. And the point was not at all. I mean, my conscience was eaten away at me and at my confidence, if you will. And I didn't know what was true. I loved Jesus. I never lost my faith in my Lord Jesus Christ. And I never lost my love for Scripture. But I began to doubt everything else. And to cut this to the chase, I began. I found myself back in touch with an old seminary, classmate, Scott Hawn. I had heard through the great finding he'd become Catholic. I didn't even register with me why any Protestant would consider becoming Catholic.

But I got in touch with him. And I heard his story, and his story kind of started to break through the wall. But what really broke through the wall was a scripture that he points out, and that's 1st Timothy 315. and that is that the pillar and ballwork of truth is, and I would have answered that question, the Bible. Sure. The pillar and ballwork of the truth is the Bible.

And when Scott was challenged with that very thing, the person had challenged him, well, what's the Bible say the pillar and ballwork of truth is? And that's where 1st Timothy 3 points out that the pillar and ballwork of truth is the church. Sure. And that didn't make me Catholic. What that made me realize is, well,

Well, which church? There are so many. My church, the Presbyterian Church, the Baptist Church, Method. And so in some, it made it worse. And it led to a deep study, again, to the early church fathers, eventually led me to Newman, reading his writings, and then the realization that our Lord did indeed establish a church in his apostles, to which he promised the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth, so that we could be certain.

of what's necessary to believe and to do for salvation. Do you remember the moment where you made that decision, where it became very clear that this is, in fact, where I'm going to end up is the Catholic Church? Well, it was a two-step process. After reading Newman's Apology of Providasua, his own biography, I knew after that that I couldn't remain Protestant, that the Bible is not,

sufficient alone to know all truth. And it doesn't take long to see that look around us. So I knew it couldn't be Protestant. I knew that faith alone was not enough, because Scripture itself said that we'll be accountable for what we do. And yes, I believe are saved by grace, but it isn't just grace alone that grace has to be lived out. So I knew that.

I couldn't be Protestant anymore, but I couldn't be Catholic. I mean, I could list the long reasons why I could not be Catholic. I wasn't that impressed with Catholics. I wasn't impressed what I was seeing in the church. Man, I think if I had been coming into the church today with the scandals, I don't know what I'd have done, you know, 20, 30 years ago. But I wasn't that impressed.

And so the study came down to Peter. Did he establish the church around Peter? And again, it was a book by Newman called The Essay in Development of Doctrine, in which he points out that what really impressed Newman was that the authority of the Bishop of Rome as the successor of Peter is not as big of a challenge as the idea

that our belief in the Trinity and our acceptance of the canon of Scripture came later in the history of the church. The church had affirmed the authority of Peter and the Bishop of Rome before the church finalized our teaching on the Trinity and even the canon of Scripture at the end of the 4th century. So the point is, why is it I can think that the Trinity and the canon of Scripture are definitive doctrines, but I can't accept the same church's teaching on the authority of Peter?

And that really was the moment. Yeah, I ran into the same thing right there. And it kind of brought a crisis on for me. as to what I was going to do. Because you were returning to the church. I was returning from what I rejected, and I knew why I rejected it. And it was a complete reversal.

It was a complete reversal for me. I want to learn more about the ministry that you are a part of, because since you have come back to the Catholic Church, of course, you have done a lot of wonderful things. You lived in Steubenville. You're in Ohio now. You've been hosting the journey home. You've heard probably more stories

than anybody alive today of why they want to come back, why they didn't, why they did come back. And you also founded the Coming Home Network, which is, I think, the largest pool of converts, reverts, and people who are still trying to make up their mind. But before I get into kind of the statistics there, and I have a few questions about the work that you're doing, did you, I ran into a problem when I came back to the Catholic Church,

you know what it was? I came back. I called myself a paper convert, meaning I read my way. I went into the church fathers. I looked at the documents. I'm like, this is solid. I have to be Catholic. And then once I became Catholic, I ran into what I would call the real church. And it was people. and it was committees and it was, you know, it was everything that I thought, oh, no, what have I done? Because I thought I was coming into this ideal world, but I didn't end up hitting an ideal world. Did you run into that as well?

Yeah, yeah, very much so, very much so. The reason that the idea for the, what was originally called just the network, and then we later called it the coming home network, the idea came because, and you can relate to this, because your experience so affirms it, Jeff. And that is, before I became, even thought about the church, I had never heard of a Protestant minister becoming Catholic.

I never crossed my mind. I didn't have a mental file folder for that reality. I knew Catholics that became Protestants, but not the other way around. I couldn't imagine why anybody would do it. So when the door opened in my heart and mind for that very thing, I felt very much alone and had no one to talk to. I was still actually practicing as a Protestant minister. I had resigned to go back to school, but I still had a responsibility to preach for a half year.

So as I'm discovering this, I can't talk to Protestants about it. And I knew no Catholics. And the Catholics I did talk to about should I convert? Often I was told, well, since Vatican 2, you don't have to convert. So I was getting bad information. So I felt very much alone. But and when I would go visit churches and look at what's the, news of telling you about the church, it wasn't always that appealing. So, but as I got closer to

coming into the church, all of a sudden I began to discover others who had made the journey before me, Scott and Kimberly Hahn, Father Ray Rylund, and Steve Wood were three that were really close to me when I came into the church. Father Paul Key, he's now a priest, he was a Presbyterian pastor. He had come in. He was my sponsor. And it was as if I wish I'd known about them when I was on the journey. It's like everybody going to a conference and you all get there and you say, wait, we could have come on a bus together. So instead of everybody, so the idea of a network was to connect men and women on the journey with people who had already come in so that they could answer questions. They could stand side by side, especially when they see

problems in the church. They wonder, how do I answer this? How do I address these issues? Or like today, the scandals. How do we deal with that? And from the very beginning, if you will, the policy of the coming home network is that we're not here to push, pull, or prod anybody into the church. We stand beside people on the journey. We're here to answer their questions, to pray for them, to help them discern what God is calling them to do next. Because it's not always that, it's not just black and white. You know, once you, the Vatican II document says that a person cannot be saved once they have come to know that Christ establishes church

unless they return or remain in the church. It says that in the catechus. And so some people can say, quoting Cyprian and Augustine, that once you know it's the church, you've got to come back because you'd be damned if you don't come back. That's not the teaching of the church. And God doesn't throw a stone tablets down, like in your life or mine telling you

this is what I want you to do. It's not always that easy. Especially, think of it this way. When you're a 55-year-old Protestant minister, that's all you've ever done in your life, and you're married with kids, and your wife wants nothing to do with the Catholic Church. You've never done anything in your adult life.

Your kids are saying, And dad, why are you taking us out of this great youth programs over there to say it what's its name? And you're going to do this. And then at age 55, you resign from your ministry and you become Catholic and you end up sitting in a pew unemployed with nobody wanting to do anything with you. You've got to make sure you're hearing God carefully. And that's what our way is about. Marcus, we're going to take a break. When we come back, I do want to talk about the experience of people and what you've seen, maybe some common denominators and some tips on.

what people can do to assist others and to, like you said, walk with them, not be their conscience and say, you've got to do this or that. But how can people help? My friends, you're listening to a very special episode of Meet My Friends. We're talking with Marcus Grotai, and he is the host of the Journey Home on EWTN and the founder of the Coming Home Network. We'll be right back. Do you find it difficult to enter into the mysteries of the rosary? What about personally applying them to your life? Drawing from the writings of the saints, the Bible, and Catholic tradition, Matt Frat has produced Pocket Guide to the Rosary,

a masterful work that teaches Catholics how to truly meditate on the mysteries of the rosary, how to pray the rosary like the saints, and so much more. If you're looking to deepen your prayer life and improve the way you pray, what St. Padre Pio called the We invite you to check out Pocket Guide to the Rosary by Matt Frad. To order, visit ascensionpress.com or Amazon. Hey, I want to welcome you back talking to a very good friend of mine that I think many of you need to get to know.

Certainly you can get to know his ministry, his work. Many of you know him from EWTN. He's the host of the Journey Home. He's the founder of the Coming Home Network, which has helped so many people to come to a fuller understanding of Jesus in his church. And it's Marcus, again, it's so good to talk to you. How many people have you been in touch with? This network you're talking about, how big is it? Well, you know, I'm sorry, I didn't know ahead of time, Jeff, that I should have grabbed all the statistics. Maybe it's just as well.

In fact, this morning, I was happy to be reading the end of Second Samuel when David is tempted to count his troops and he gets in trouble. So maybe it's just as well that I haven't counted them all. But we've been, well, first of all, let me say that we have never, in all the years, we've been around for over 25 years. The Coming Home Network doesn't go out to try and convert Protestant ministers. We don't send, we don't put leaflets on people's windshields on Sunday morning. We're not going out. they come to us and I used to jokingly say that after Catholic answers did a job then people come to us to forget now what they're going to do with their life you know and so we've been

contacted over the last 25 years by several thousand easily pushing three more than 3,000 non-Catholic ministers from over 100 different denominations amazing about half of those have come into the church maybe a third of those that have come into the church are now priests, and every story's different. We also have many, the word many's can be exaggerated. We have about twice or many lay inquirers that have come to us. We help Laity too, of course. We call in our work our primary members, meaning our primary focus is helping people whose conversion will cause an upheaval in their vocation and occupation. So ministers, missionaries, youth ministers, academics, when they are drawn to the Catholic

Church, it means a huge upheaval in their lives. And so we're there to help them. We don't always get, you know, we're not here to give them money. We've never given money to people on the journey. But after they come in, if they go through a rough time, yeah, sometimes we can help them out financially. But our goals help them make connections. Your example is really great. And I'm glad I did it the way I did. If what you say is true, your memory is better than mine. But you were not a Catholic yet. You were on the journey. You came to me. And what did I do?

I connected you with your local bishop. And I believe that's our work. is do we do what we can to connect people locally so they can look face to face with others in the church, especially local priest or bishop? Let me ask you this. How does the journey to the church typically begin? Does it usually start as a theological itch of some kind or some kind of wound or an event in somebody's life? that they suddenly start looking at the church?

You know, back when in the early days of the Journey Home program, when I forced every guest to tell their story in 27.2 minutes, nowadays they have a whole hour. But in the early days, I had to force condense it, the first time you were on the show way back in the late 90s, Jeff. But I would divide the first half hour with the question, all right, what opened your heart to the church? And I was nailing that very thing you're talking about.

what is it? And I have to say now after 16.2 gazillion episodes, it's always different. I mean, you know, I'm not evading this. It really is amazingly different. If I were to ask all my guests, what was it that brought you into the church? If they're all honest, they'll say all agree the same thing, the grace of God. The grace of God. Well, how did then, on the other hand, what did God use? And it's every imaginable way. they're coming out of a difficult church situation. So you have those that, for example, I don't want to pick point fingers, but many of our Anglican converts are really upset with where the Anglican church is going on moral issues. So women's ordination or different things.

So that's the original spark that opened. It doesn't necessarily make them Catholic, but now what are they going to do? And that makes them open. In my mind, case. I was at a crisis. What am I going to do? And then dropped, God dropped into my lab, my old classmate, Scott Hahn. Others, it's, they may watch the journey home. They may be at your Bible timeline. They may not expecting it at all. All of a sudden, something beautiful about the Catholic Church opens, God uses that to open their mind. And that begins the journey. That's why, for example, the books I've written, which are not going to be bestsellers, but they're specifically stealth evangelization so that this book is sitting on somebody's shelf.

Well, it looks interesting. I've written a couple novels. Oh, that's interesting. They read, oh, wow, this is interesting. And then before they know it, it's opening them up, hopefully by grace, to the beauty of the church. You know, in looking at all of these people that you've worked with over the years, do you see key to, topics that people wrestle with like for example we could we could come up with 200 theological points that people might struggle with in some way or another but it all gets sifted down into

i would guess a handful of issues that they're keeping them from really taking that next step are there main issues yeah i i have to be careful that i don't read into everybody my own I don't want to project into everybody. I do think the issue of how do you know it's true is very, very common. Authority, all the different opinions out there. That's really common on so many others. Another is there's something missing. Remember, you wrote a book about that, right?

Yeah. Yeah, there's something missing in my life. What is it? A lot of actually reverts, former Catholics who've left and are out there. Maybe they're in ministries, their lives, there's something missing. And that's often what brings it back. Sometimes it is a crisis and they find great meaning in the Catholic understanding of suffering or, you know. Would you say that it's oftentimes a combination between?

some theological problem that they're wrestling with as well as relational. You know, like for example, in my situation, it wasn't so much theological that I left. It was more of I was loved out of the church and then it became theological coming in. But I had a relationship with my father that was really broke that I needed to deal with that. And that was a part of the healing of me coming back. I, Jeff, I truly believe that it's the mystery of election, and this is a bit controversial, but to me it truly is that mystery of election, which means it is the initiative, it's on the initiative of God and His grace, but we always have the freedom to respond.

So in that very mysterious connection, the crossover of God's initiating grace, but then our freedom to respond in that, God uses an infinite number of things, situations, relationships, and where when I grew up, there was a cartoon show about a turtle that was always going off and getting in trouble. And I remember at one point, it's, you know, the phrase was, and this is when I was five years old, tristle, trussle, trussle, time for this one to come home. I don't know if you remember that.

But my point was... I'm surprised you remember that. No, but the point I remember that because the point was this little turtle gets so far out there, and then the guy said, it's time. And a lot of it, that's for us. It's time. God's time to reach us, to touch us.

and so do we respond? And that's part of the reason the coming home network is somebody calls us, says, I just don't know we're going to be with that person as long as they're on the journey because it may take a while. What's happening to those who come back

in terms of finding their place in the church and exercising their perceived gifts? Well, that's a mixed bag. I think it's a problem, my view. there are even John Paul really talked about our need to be careful and responsible for converts to come into the church to use their gifts I have file folders full of former clergy who come into the church and have had really difficult encounters

sometimes it's they need to grow in humility but sometimes it's it's the way they're received. And the truth is, the church has not had a great track record on the way it's received, especially Protestants in the church. And that's part of the problem. In America, a part of the subliminal culture, if you will, is an anti-Catholicism. It's a part of our culture. And I really believe that a vast majority of the people you know and I know, Jeff, short of a miracle of grace, they would never be open to the Catholic Church. And part of it is because of what they've seen. Sure.

And that's why my data, not mine, but the data that we have is probably maybe the most thorough in the world, demonstrates that only less than 1% of Americans show any interest in coming home to the Catholic Church. less than 1%. And if you will, it's sobering. Well, let's look at it this way. Less, a little over 20% of America claims to be Catholic.

The bishops I talk to say, of that 20%, maybe half go to church regularly. That means only 10% of Americans are regularly in the sacraments. That means only one out of every 10 people that die, die in the sacraments. We have a lot of work to do. A lot of work to do. No kidding.

You know, we just have a few minutes left, but one of the big questions that I get that I would love for you to address is that, you know, people will write me, they'll call or meet me at a conference or something and say, and I can tell you right now, I've got a whole handful of Protestant ministers that are just wonderful, lovely people

and laymen who are considering the Catholic Church, but they have this question, my wife or my spouse, my husband is not on the same page. What do you recommend because I'm afraid this is going to split our family? Yeah, I, okay, I'm just, as Paul said, I'm not speaking of the Lord. That's a hard one. That's hard. I'm just speaking me, you know, and actually that's been a real struggle because I've wanted bishops to answer that very question.

Clearly for us, because very often my staff and I are. dealing with Protestant ministers that are posing that exact question and wondering, what do they do? Do they resign from their ministry to become Catholic? What do they do when their wife especially doesn't want to do it? And my view is that our vow that we have made in marriage is the most important vow that we have made in our life, whether we made it as a Catholic or a Protestant, and it needs to be honored. And so, I would say that that's why we do not push, pull, or prod anybody into the church. We help them discern.

A good example of that. Now, Scott Hawn ain't the best example. His example wasn't the best in terms of coming in before his wife. I mean, in the end, it turned out fine. But for me, the example always reminds me, it was Paul Figpin, wonderful, wonderful friend. I know he's a good friend of yours, Jeff. Amazing man, yeah. He was a, you know, a former Protestant minister.

he after so much he was ready to come into the church and his wife wanted nothing whatsoever to do with it almost to the point if she would divorce him if he became Catholic I mean I'm exaggerating so what did Paul do? He said fine

I'll trust God and I'll wait and he waited two years later she was more ready to become Catholic than he was so that's trust in God it's trust in God it's very similar to Emily and myself actually

because I made my mind up, I was, I needed to come back home for me. It was to come back home to the church. And it frightened her and it frightened my mother-in-law. And I remember saying to Emily, I have to go home. And I don't want this to split us in any way whatsoever. I want you to study what I studied. And fortunately, she was in a wonderful environment. We were at Steubenville.

And she studied and she came to the conclusion. And I said, sweetie, if you commit. into the Catholic Church, and I die the next day, I want you to be so convicted about your faith that you'll stay Catholic the rest of your life. And, you know, she had big questions all the way to the end, and she had to trust in this pillar that the truth rests on, which is the church. Your resources, I know that recently I was at your headquarters there in Ohio, and you have some amazing resources for people that are searching, for people that might have love. ones that want to know, what are the best sources here for us to look at?

Tell me a little bit about your resource center and how people can tap into that. Well, first of all, I would direct the audience to our website, c-h-network.org. Lots of resources there, lots of e-books, lots of things to answer questions, as are with many other Catholic sites, but we have a lot there. Maybe our biggest strength is our online community in which people on the journey can can even privately talk with others on the journey. Here we have a library of books that we give away. We've selected several dozen Pacific books,

apologetic books written by some of the best Catholic authors. Your books are there, Jeff. And we do this because when we encounter people on the way or on the journey and they say, I'm just really having a problem with purgatory, well, we've got a book for you. I'm having a problem with Mary. I've got a book for you. I'm having a problem about the Eucharist.

We have a book for it. And so our donors who support our work enable us to have these resources to give away. If people are not on the journey, but they say, boy, we would like to know what those books are, well, they can call our office and we can give you the list or whatever so you can buy them for yourself.

But ours are specifically for non-Catholic Christians who are on the journey. We want to give them to them. Because a lot of these people live in places, they just don't know where to find a good book. And so that's why we have. So in a sense, So in a sense, you've vetted thousands of books that are out there and said,

if you're interested in the Blessed Mother, you're interested in Communion, Saints, Eucharist, whatever it is. We think we've got a book that's going to be solid and it's going to help you out. So Marcus, how can people help in supporting you? Obviously, you are donor-based. People are helping you in this very, very important ministry that you're involved in. So outside of giving to you, which I'm sure you guys would welcome, How can people help?

How can people assist you? Well, from the very beginning of our work, we have a small staff, you know, a dozen folk. And so if you will, I'm in this ministry supporting a dozen or so families. So, yeah, we need financial support all the time. Because as you realize when you're in ministry, I'm also promising all those husbands and wives that they can dedicate their life to our work that it'll be around in five, ten years so that they can support. We also recognize that we can't do it all.

So we have lots of volunteers that help out the online community to answer people who are on the journey, are helpers. And in that sense, you have this great opportunity to talk with non-Catholic Christians who are coming into the church. Usually our work isn't hardcore apologetics. It's more simpler questions. You know, that you can share relation.

We believe in stories. And so you share relationally how you've come to understand purgatory or how you've come to understand Mary or how you appreciate devotion to the saints and so there's lots of things that people do they love to connect with us as we wind up to show Marcus

a couple things that my friends here that are joining us a couple things they can pray for you about prayer intentions Jeff I'm in my upper 60s and you know we always I'm sure you ask us questions too sometimes what are we going to do when we grow up

right and I've decided that my number one goal for the rest of my life is to try and be the best husband and father and grandfather I can be. So I ask, if anybody wants to pray, please, please, pray for me to be a better husband and father and grandfather and leader. And also another thing, Jeff, I'm sure you can relate to

is now that I'm older, what I want to do, is trying to live out all those things I've been preaching for the last 50 years. Yes. We're in the same boat. Ditto, my friends. You do all that for me, too. really appreciate it. Marcus, it's been good to have you on the show today. And it's a pleasure

for me to introduce you to my friends. And it's been really good. My friends, if you know of somebody that is really struggling with this issue of becoming Catholic or you know of somebody that's been discussing it, I cannot recommend the Coming Home Network enough. C-H-network.org is the website. All the contact information is there. resources are there. And so I'm basically, I'm handing you a gold mine of resources and experience that will help you. And I really can't think of another ministry in the world that is so rich in this information and the heart in being able to help people and assist people on this amazing journey. So go to chnetwork.com or dot org, rather, chtnetwork.org. And also stay

tune because the Coming Home Network also has conferences throughout the year that you can go to that just might be the ticket to invite someone to that would have their questions answered. All right, my friends, I want to close in prayer today and ask God to continue to bless you. And let's pick up the people that you know that are on this journey right now and ask God to continue to bless them. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Lord, I lift up to you, my friend, and I ask you to bless them. And Lord, all of those people that they know who are searching and asking questions,

whether it's sons or daughters, relatives, people in their network, Lord, I pray that you would accompany them and assist them and to remove the barriers that would keep them from experiencing all that you want them to experience of yourself. I ask you to bless Lord in such a powerful way, the Coming Home Network and also the journey home for continued fruitfulness and also in Marcus's life and his wonderful family. We thank you for him and thank you for his ministry in Jesus' name. Amen, name of the Father's Son and the Holy Spirit.

I love you, my friend. I love you. Remember, you can write me at The Jeff Kaven Show at ascensionpress.com. We'll stay in touch and it's been a privilege to introduce to you one of my best friends, God bless. Thank you.