The Jeff Cavins Show (Your Catholic Bible Study Podcast) - Should Catholics Attend Protestant Bible Studies? (Part 1)

Episode Date: February 14, 2025

Are you considering joining a Protestant Bible study? Drawing from his experience as a former Protestant pastor, Jeff shares his insights on Catholics attending Protestant Bible studies. He discusses the differences between Catholic and Protestant approaches to Scripture, emphasizing the importance of understanding the historical context of the Bible within the authority of the Church. Additionally, he provides essential guidelines for Catholics who are thinking about attending Protestant Bible studies. Stay tuned for part two next week! Snippet from the Show Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture” (CCC 112) Email us with comments or questions at [e-mail]. Text “jeffcavins” to 33-777 to subscribe and get Jeff’s shownotes delivered straight to your email! Or visit https://media.ascensionpress.com/?s=&page=2&category%5B0%5D=Ascension%20Podcasts&category%5B1%5D=The%20Jeff%20Cavins%20Show for full shownotes!

Welcome to the Jeff Kaven Show, where we talk about the Bible, discipleship, and evangelization, putting it all together in living as activated disciples. This is show 417. Should Catholics attend Protestant Bible studies? Welcome to the show, my friend. Good to have you. Hope you're enjoying winter. Well, if you're in the South, you probably are. Up in the South, you probably are. north here, we are really getting hit hard with some cold weather. Yesterday, it's 15 below in the middle of the night. And I think tonight it's supposed to get down to about seven or eight below. So it's cold up here. And that gives us all the more reason to stay inside and read the

Bible and study the Bible. And that's what we're going to talk about today. One of the common questions that I receive is, should I attend a Protestant Bible study? I'm a Catholic, and I'm not sure whether I should be doing that or not. It's a good question. And I appreciate people being aware of the difference. And what are some of the things that you should consider if you do do that? So I'm going to talk about that today a little bit. And if you want the show notes for today, you don't get them right now and you'd like them. All you've got to do is text my name, one word, Jeff Kavens, and you text it to the number 3377. 3377. Hey, about a week and a half ago, I was able to go to Italy. And I led a group over there, and we had the most

wonderful time over in Italy. Had an audience with Pope Francis and got to go to St. Francis of Assisi, went to that church, went to St. Clair, just had a wonderful time. And I want to say, hi, a shout out to all of my friends who went to Italy with Emily and myself. We had a great time. So let's talk about Bible studies. And let's talk about a Catholic Bible study and a Protestant Bible study. I am your host and I'm bilingual. I speak both Catholic and Protestant with no accent on either one. And I used to be a Protestant pastor for 12 years. And so I know something about Protestant Bible studies. The Great Adventure Bible Studies was originally developed while I was a pastor. And then when I came back to the Catholic Church, of course, many. anything's changed, but the story stays the same, but our approach to it and the number of books that we use, that's all a little bit different, and we'll talk about that today. Maybe you have some teenagers who are saying, Mom, Dad, I'm not getting much out of the Catholic Church, and I want to know if I can go with Debbie or with Bobby over to this other church, and you're wondering,

man, should I let them do that? I don't know. Well, those are decisions that parents have to make, but I can give you some basic guidelines. If you find yourself in a Protestant Bible study, there are some cautions. There are some things to remember if you're engaging people who do not believe in the Catholic Church's approach to Scripture. And we'll go through those here today.

But, you know, when I was a Protestant pastor, we had a lot of Bible studies, and we were big into it. And, of course, that was the main thing that we had. We didn't have the sacraments. It was an independent, non-denominational church. We didn't have the sacraments, and we didn't have the tradition behind us, the 2,000 years. And so I was the pastor, aka kind of the pope, and I'm trying to lead this group, and I have a Bible,

and I am trying to give people the best that I can. But one thing that I did lack, and that was I did not have a long tradition behind me of how we actually approach the scripture and what the scriptures really are. So that was the disadvantage that I had. I can say this, with all of my heart, sincerely, that since coming back to the Catholic Church in the 1990s, in the earlier in the middle 90s there, I have got more out of the Bible than ever before, and the Bible has become bigger than ever before, not just in size in terms of seven books, but in terms of depth, my word, it is amazing. If you read it in the context of the Catholic Church, the very church that the Word of God springs from, then, wow, it is deep, it is wide, it's powerful.

There's a certain sense of certitude when you're reading it and understanding how to read it, how to interpret it. And so we'll talk about some of those things here today. So whether you should go to a Protestant Bible study or not is not for me to answer, but I can give you some guidelines. I would say this, though, and this is the answer that I give to people, that if you're young in the Lord and impressionable, you might want to go to a Catholic Bible study first, because I know from my experience, if you trotted into our church, there's a good chance you might not trot out because we were big into evangelization, and 50% of my church that I pastored was ex-Catholic. That's right. 50% ex-Catholic. And it was easy. And one of the things that I would do is I would use the Word of God to begin to ask questions that they didn't have answers for. The Catholics didn't have answers for. And after just a little bit, I'm inviting them to be a part of our world without any commitment and to check it out, see what you think. And of course, the studies are very practical and joyful. And we have all kinds of people that are participating. and they all have Bibles that seem to imply that they've been at this a while and they enjoy it. And there was something very attractive about that. I would say this, that we are entering a time now where I think we're experiencing the beginnings of a Catholic revival in Scripture study.

And the people that I run into are so on fire for Scripture that I truly believe, and I mean this with all of my heart. I see a day. I see a day when people move to a new city, Catholic or Protestant, they're going to want to know where the Catholic Bible studies are because they're going to be the most comprehensive and the deepest studies that they can get into. And we're experiencing this right now, not just with the Great Adventure Bible Studies, but there's a lot of other ministries within Catholicism who are also publishing good Bible studies. We have an embarrassment of riches going on in our lives right now. Should you attend? Well, that's something that you have to pray about, but I want to cover some of these issues. Number one, if you're going to find yourself in a Protestant Bible study, it is very important to understand what the Word of God is historically in the church. When I say historically in the church, I'm not talking about historically in the modern church here. I'm saying the church ever since the beginning, which was Catholic. And that was that,

that their understanding of the Word of God was sacred scripture, yes, and sacred tradition. Now, I didn't make that up. In fact, the Catholic Church didn't make it up. That's the way the Jewish community has always understood the Word of God. They believe that Moses received the written Torah on Mount Sinai, but they also believe that Moses received the oral Torah on Mount Sinai. And so that tells us that not all that is the word of God is written. There's also the oral word of God, that is the sacred tradition that was given by Jesus with sacred scripture to make up what we would call the deposit of faith. Now, did we make that up? No, we didn't make that at all.

Paul even talks about it. He says in 2nd Thessalonians 2.15, and I'll put in the show notes for you. He said, so then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter. So there in one verse, 2, Thessalonians 2.15, you have both. You have the written letters, that is the epistles and so forth. And you also have the tradition that was taught by the apostles. and so both of them make up what's called the Word of God.

Now, that is important because if you have teenagers that are going over to some of the churches and they're getting involved in study, it is very easy to trip them up, very easy. All I have to do is ask your teenager, if I say, well, tell me about Mary, and they say, well, this is what we think about Mary. All I have to do is to say, well, where do you find that in the Bible? That's it. That's all I got to say. Where do you find that in the Bible? And so what I've done in saying that is I have reduced the whole scope of revelation to just what's in the Bible and exactly how it's in the Bible and how I see it in the Bible. When the truth is, is that Jesus passed on more than just what was written. And that's why Paul says, hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, whether it was spoken or letter. So that's Paul right there. You have to argue with Paul on that one right there.

But when the Reformation came around in the 16th century, you probably are aware of this. The two pillars of the Reformation, this gradual split from the Catholic Church, was faith alone and then Scripture alone. Now, both of them are problematic in that James actually says, you are not saved by faith alone. again, I didn't say that. That's James. And then scripture alone. Oddly enough, that's an unscriptural teaching. You can't find it in the Bible. You simply can't find scripture alone in the Bible. And so we run into a problem when we reduce revelation to just the Bible and particularly my slant on it, and that we really, really can get into some serious trouble there. And that's what we really, really can get into some serious trouble there. why being Catholic is such a beautiful thing in that the Catholic Church all throughout the years

through apostolic succession has handed on the scriptures and handed on the sacred tradition as an entity known as the Word of God. That is such a blessing to us. And we have, of course, the Holy Spirit ensuring that this stays together, safe, not corrupted, and that the leadership won't change it. What will pass it on? That's their role. They are custodians. they are the ones that care for this. And that's why, for example, abortion or gay marriage or whatever it might be, it's not going to change. It can't.

And that's the beauty of it. It doesn't. It doesn't. But you know what? You can go to all kinds of denominations and you find things changing left and right. And that, my friend, is one of the reasons that so many people are leaving those traditional denominations. And we're experiencing a revival in scripture.

study in the Catholic Church. So that's really, really important. It's not faith alone. It's not Sola Scriptura or Scripture alone. We believe what they believed in the New Testament, what Jesus, his world, and Peter and Paul's world, and that is that the Word of God. Listen, it says in the Catechism, we are not people of the book. We are people of the word, the living word, Jesus Christ. That's beautiful thought. So don't be fooled on that. Now, here's another thing, and I want to share with you before we take our break, and that is this, when it comes to studying scripture, at least I'll do the intro here, we might take a break. But when it comes to studying scripture, there are some guidelines given to us as Catholics that you will not find in just any Protestant Bible study. Oftentimes Protestant Bible studies are quite subjective and what it means to that person rather than what does the governing body,

what does the leadership of this church say about scripture and how we approach it? Are there guidelines? Oh, yeah, there are. You know, it's like the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. The United States, the Constitution of the United States does not stand on its own. It is interpreted. It's interpreted. And that's part of the whole juridical system is that people interpret the Constitution.

That's what the Supreme Court is about. That's what judges are about. And it's the same way with the Word of God. We don't believe in the strictest sense in what is called the perspicuous nature of Scripture. That means that scripture interprets Scripture. We don't. Any more than the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution interprets the Constitution. It doesn't.

It demands leadership to guide and direct. And that's why today we have with after the Reformation, over 30,000 different denominations that are registered based on scripture alone. That's the problem. And so that's what you have to be aware of before you go into a study that it is a different way of looking at the Bible. It's a very American type of Western view of scripture. I am the one that interprets.

I am the one that decides. I am the one that says, this is what God is saying to me. Very thin ice in some cases. Very thin. Nice. So there's three criteria that the church gives us, and you can find it in the catechism in paragraph 111, 112, and 113, and also 114. And it gives us three criteria for interpreting scripture. And I'm going to share that with you right after this. You're listening to the Jeff Kaven show. Hey, guys, my name's Father Mike Schmitz. I am excited to announce that I'll be launching

the parables tour this spring. We'll come together and we'll see. see what the Lord wants to share with us in his word through the parables. And then we'll follow that with a live Q&A. So if you're interested, go to ascensionpress.com slash father Mike tour to find out dates and locations. That's ascensionpress.com slash F-R-M-I-K-E tour. God bless and we'll see you there. Thank you for coming back. I knew you'd be here. You're hungry for the word of God. Isn't that beautiful? I know that hunger is so well. You know, I started. It was 18 years old. and this is all I have been involved in all these years. Wow, that's a long time.

And I never have become bored. And I never put it aside and say, I don't need that anymore. I know enough. It's just, I get hungrier and hungrier for it. And the Bible gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And as the years go by, I know less and less and less because I start to realize, wow, this is a, this is an expanding library.

It's really, really something. Okay, so three criteria for interpreting scripture. Are you ready? Number one, paragraph 112 of the catechism, be especially attentive to the content and unity of the whole scripture. Different as the books which compose it may be, scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart opens since his Passover. Now, what does that mean? Be especially attentive to the content and unity of the whole Bible, the whole scripture. Well, what we're talking about here is that when you approach the Bible, you have to take the verses in one of the books of the Bible. You have to take it within the context and understand it within the context of that entire book.

Whether it be Isaiah, whether it be 1st Corinthians, you can't just take a line out of there. and apply it to whatever you want and say it means this to me, that is really dangerous. Really dangerous. No, can God speak to you personally from the scripture? Absolutely. Absolutely. But you have to be attentive to the fact that 1st Corinthians is in the context of the New Testament. It's also in the context of the entire Bible.

And there is a content and there's the unity of the United of the New Testament. whole scripture. The whole thing composes a plan, God's plan. We call it the economy of God. God has an overarching plan. All of these books, all 73 books in the Catholic Bible, 66 in a Protestant Bible, we'll talk about that. They are all part of a plan. That's why you've got to keep them together. You cannot start to take scriptures out of context. They become a pretext for error. is really, really important, really important. You know, we talk about the phrase heart of Christ. And the heart of Christ can refer to sacred scripture which makes known his heart. And that's what we're getting in the scriptures. We're coming to know the

heart of God. So number one, be especially attentive to the content and unity of the whole scripture. Number two, read the scripture within the living tradition of the whole church. According to a saying of the fathers, sacred scripture is written principally in the church's heart rather than in documents and records for the church carries in her tradition the living memorial of God's word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the scripture, according to the spiritual meaning which the spirit grants to the church. And so we're told that we have to read the scriptures within the living tradition of the church. What does that mean? Well, the tradition of the church is all that has been passed on through apostolic succession, and from one bishop to the next, and one generation to the next.

And so we come to know things about God that the church has determined are dogma, or they are so important, and it's been passed on from generation to generation. Now, you can't come to the scriptures and land on some kind of meaning that opposes the tradition that has been handed on to us. You can't do it. And so I'll take for example, Jesus is God, right? Jesus is God. One person, human and divine, human and divine, but one person, and He's God. He's fully God, fully human. Now, I can't say to you, well, he's really two people.

there's a human person and then there's the divine person. That's called heresy. You see, the church has determined this in the previous councils and really worked through some of this and it has become tradition, capital T. I can't approach the Bible and come to a conclusion that flies in the face of that established tradition. This will keep you honest here when it comes to studying scripture. So that is really, really important.

So not only do we pay special attention to the content and unity of the whole scripture, but number two, we read the scriptures within the living tradition of the whole church. And you know why? Because the scriptures come out of the church. It was St. Augustine who said, and get this. St. Augustine said, I would not believe that the Bible is the word of God had the church not told me. That is an excellent little exercise, isn't it?

And I ask people this. I'll hand them a Bible. Typically, these are my Protestant friends. I'll ask them, do you believe this is the Word of God? And they'll say, yeah, of course I do. Why? Tell me why. Well, because it is. That's not an answer. That's not an answer. So tell me why you believe it's the Word of God. Well, it says that it's scripture is, you know, and they give me a couple of verses and said, that doesn't say it. That doesn't say it just says what it's good for, for teaching, correction, and so forth. But why do you believe it's the Word of God? Well, because of the feeling I get in my heart.

No, no, no. Really, you can build your life on that, a feeling you're getting? No, why do you believe that the Scriptures are the Word of God? The answer always ends with, I don't know. I don't know. And that's honest. But I'll tell you why I know that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God, because the Church told me.

You see, Jesus gave authority to the Church, the pillar in the support of truth. He's not a poor builder. He's not a forgetful builder. Jesus built this church. You're telling me that he's just going to let anybody think whatever they want about his word? They didn't do that in the Old Testament. Why would they do it in the new? And so Jesus gave authority to the disciples. And I know that the scriptures are the word of God. You know why? Because in the councils of Hippo and Carthage, 393 and 37, The church determined that these were the books that were inspired, Word of God, the canon. Now, think about that for a minute.

393, 397. So what did the church do before that when it came to Scripture? Well, the leadership knew, and that's what they taught, and that's what they passed on. And then it became really kind of concretized in 393 and 397. So you have to ask yourself, well, how do the church exist before that? authority, same way it does today, authority. But I don't like all the things about authority. Well, that's something you're going to have to wrestle with God with

because he's the one that built the church. And so that is very, very important. St. Augustine, I would not believe that the Bible is the word of God, had the church not told me. So the bottom line as to why anybody, Catholic or Protestant, believes that the Bible is the word of God, is because the church said it. And if the church said that this is the word of God,

then why are we not trusting the church in the other areas? This seems to be pretty much the area that really counts, the Word of God, and of course the Eucharist as well. So that's the second. Now, the third is to be attentive to the analogy of faith. By analogy of faith, we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation. In other words, this is a complete plan.

and it's detailed, and we have to be attentive to the analogy of faith, the coherence of all of the truths, those things that have been revealed. So those are the three things in the catechism that the church says, here, let me help you in interpreting scripture. Here's some guidelines that are going to help you get the most out of the Bible that you possibly can. And I'll tell you, when I came back to the Catholic Church, you talk about a sense of certitude in the Word of God, and being able to listen to the saints from the beginning, Cyril of Jerusalem, Ignatius, and Athanasius, and Augustine, and Thomas, and Gregory the Great, oh my gosh, it just is amazing.

And so, for example, in the new catechism of the Catholic Church that Ascension put out, and the one that the churches has been using over the last number of years, you literally have like an all-star cast of saints who are teaching us, about the faith. And guess what? They don't teach things that a lot of people are teaching today. They don't, but the Catholic Church is. Now, you can pick and choose from those saints like Augustine and Thomas from of old and Athanasius and make them say whatever you want. Or you can listen to them and take what they say within the context of the church. So that's the biggest change in my life. when I came back to the Catholic Church.

Now, what I'm going to do is I'm going to make two shows out of this because I've already gone a half an hour here. So what I'm going to do is next week I'm going to give part two. And I'm going to talk about the senses of Scripture. If you're going to go, you find yourself in another church in a Bible study, these are things that you really need to know. We're going to talk about the senses of Scripture. and I'm going to talk about the canon of Scripture.

What is the difference between 73 books that Catholics have in their Bible and 66 books that Protestants have in their Bible? Did we add seven books? Did they take away seven books? We're going to look into that next week and we're going to talk a little bit about it because if you're going to go to one of the studies,

it's good for you to be equipped to answer questions that people may give you. And then I'm going to talk a little bit about the Bible studies that are available today and why I recommend that if you're going to, if you want to get into a Bible study, it just might be your turn to start one in your local parish. So we'll talk a little bit about that as well. So I hope this is helpful, you know, and I realized about halfway through today's show that this is a bigger than one show, and I'm going to have to divide this up.

I could give you the Reader's Digest version, but who wants that? So let's close in prayer, shall we? And by the way, take note, too, we sold out of the new premium Great Adventure Bible. It was like hotcakes. It flew off the shelves. And they've got more coming in. And I'm going to be doing a show on that new premium great adventure Bible here in the next few weeks. And I'm going to go over that with you and tell you why that is a premium Bible and why you should get it.

It'll last a lifetime. Exciting times we're living in. Let's pray. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, amen. and Lord Jesus, you are the Word made flesh. You are the incarnate Word of God. We thank you, Lord, for giving yourselves to us and giving your word to us and giving us a church

in which we can grow and we can study and interpret. I pray, Lord, for all of my friends in the area of Scripture study that there would be a desire to go deep and that I pray for people to be raised up in parishes to put on one of these studies, these great adventure studies in their parish, to be the person that turns the faucet on for the word of God to flow into the local parish. I thank you, Lord, for raising up people. To you be all the glory, O Lord, you are king, you are Lord, we love you, you are totally, completely

other. We thank you for your word in Jesus' name. Amen. Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Love you. Talk to you next week. Thank you.