The Jeff Cavins Show (Your Catholic Bible Study Podcast) - The Demonic Realm with Fr. Jon Vander Ploeg

Episode Date: July 28, 2023

Can a demon read my mind? Should I be afraid of the devil? When it comes to the demonic, there can be a lot of confusion and misinformation. So, what is true about the demonic? Jeff is joined by Fr. Jon Vander Ploeg to discuss this. They offer encouragement and wisdom on how to battle the demonic and how to create strong barriers against it. Snippet from the Show I do not have to be afraid if I am united with Christ and I am in a state of grace. Email us with comments or questions at [e-mail]. Text “jeffcavins” to 33-777 to subscribe and get Jeff’s shownotes delivered straight to your email! Or visit ascensionpress.com/thejeffcavinsshow for full shownotes!

Welcome to the Jeff Kaven Show, where we talk about the Bible, discipleship, and evangelization, putting it all together in living as activated disciples. This is show 334, The Demonic Realm, with Father John Vanderplug. Welcome again to the show this week. No doubt you came back to hear the other side of the coin here. We had an opportunity to talk with Father John Vanderplug, who's the director of formation at the St. Paul Seminary in St. Paul and Minneapolis. That's the Twin Cities. And I know that that topic of angels is really a popular topic. When people talk about guardian angels, we talked about that last week. When we talk about our relationship with angels, we went over that. And Father John Vanderplug did such a great job. We've got him back this week. but we're going to be talking about the demonic realm. And this is something that I think you need to hear. You need to know it for your own life, but you also need to know what he's about to say for your children's lives

and those that you love, those that you care about. Hollywood has really portrayed the demonic realm in a unique way, not necessarily a correct way. And I think that the subject of studying the demonic realm is something that has to be done carefully. It's not something to mess with, but then again, it's not something to be afraid of either.

But you definitely need guidance in this area. And so Father John Vanderplug really is, I believe, an expert in this area. And so he's going to share some points with us. And the thing I enjoy about Father John Vanderplug so much is that this is not a putting on a show. This is not, you know, airing the activity of the enemy so that, you know, people become fascinated with it, similar to a horror show. And we'll talk about that as well. But he is very sober-minded about the topic, and he is way more interested in becoming one with Jesus and adoring Jesus. And so he's going to share with you some things in light of that.

And so I give you this wonderful exchange that we had with Father, John van derplug. Joining me again this week is Father John Vanderplug. He has studied angelology. Maybe you spent all week trying to pronounce that, but last week we were looking at the role of angels in the Bible, in mass, in our own lives, the hierarchy of the angels, the power of the angels, what are they called on to do in the kingdom of God? and we were talking also about guardian angels.

So it was a very good discussion. Go back and listen to it if you have the time there. But this week we're going to be talking about the other side, and that is fallen angels. And so I want to welcome again to the show, Father John Vanderplu. Good to have you back. Thank you, Jeff. Good to be with you.

Good to have you back. Last show, we had a great time talking about different aspects of angels, which is very eye-opening and comforting all at the same time, knowing that my idea of angels really shouldn't come from Hollywood, but it really comes from the scriptures and the tradition of the church and the church fathers have an awful lot to say about that. Turning our attention to the fallen guys, the ones that fell, this is a whole different topic,

and one which I want to handle discreetly. I want to handle it in a way that does not give undue glory or attention to what the enemy is all about. But I think it really deserves a discussion when we talk about demonic activity in the world today and going all the way back to that fall. And so I want to start there by asking you to just give us a synopsis from that fall before the earth was created and before man was created. And what happened,

the nature of that fall. And what was the fallout as sort of speak the fallout? I know that the book of wisdom says that it was through envy that the enemy fell and really came into this world. And envy is when we become sad at someone else's blessing. And I can only imagine, and that the enemy was somehow very sad and put out when everybody was worshipping God. And for some reason, it didn't click with that one. And that led to a huge fallout. Take us there. Yeah, and I think both sad that people are worshipping God,

but also sad at God's love reaching out so far even below the angels in order to come to save humankind, mankind. That plan is bewildering. And when faced with a bewildering plan, we can reject it, or we can entrust ourselves to God, who is this mystery. And St. Ironaus says that one third of the angels fell,

and Scripture speaks clearly that St. Michael drove them out of heaven. He led a battle with the other angels and drove them out of heaven. And it's talked about in Scripture that they're roaming the earth. And in different points of Scripture, it speaks in different ways about where the demons are. So in Leviticus 16, there's an interesting reading where Aaron takes the sins of the people, and he puts them on two goats. One is sacrifice.

The other is sent out into the desert in order to be given to a demon there. And we see in the desert Father St. Anthony at the desert, when he goes out to pray in the desert, the demons say to him, what are you doing in our domain? That you are in our domain. And this gives a little bit different light

on the temptation of Jesus in the desert, that he's actually going out to confront the enemy. Usually we view it as Jesus is just trying to fast and pray and the devil's picking on him. But scripture is so clear of the spirit drove him out into the desert that he goes to confront the enemy of mankind. and that that Jesus is coming to defeat sin, death, the evil one, and to bring his love. It's interesting that you brought up that idea of the scapegoat in Leviticus,

where the sins of the people are, in a sense, put on to the goat. The goat is sent out into the desert in the wilderness. And in the Hebrew scriptures, that term that's used for that is Azazel. Azazel means go to hell. Yeah. And that's the word that is used, go to hell. Yeah. And here's Jesus going out into the wilderness.

Like you said, he's taking on the enemy, and he is overcoming, and he's showing us, you know, the great victory there. But, you know, when we look at demonic activity, back in Scripture, it's very, very clear that there is demonic activity here on Earth. Yes. And there is a battle. What is the battle over? The battle is over, the main thing the battle is, is over our souls. That's the prize. Yes, is us, humanity.

That they want to prevent or delay union with God, which is slightly different than wanting to send everyone to hell. That their focus is on wanting to delay or prevent union with God. and for me what strikes me is just that reality of even delaying is what they put work into that actually that responding to the Lord immediately has great merit but even the Lord's patience even if I respond slowly he can bear tremendous fruit and that but that's what they're looking to do to keep me from being in union with God how might that manifest well how what would that look like in the course of Mr. Mrs. Johnson's life? They have four kids. How would that look? It can look in different ways. It could come very directly. It could come by an affront by someone or

something that hurts and that makes me pull back from the Lord in some way. It can also come through just distractions. We get sucked into the culture. Baseballs on the same day that Mass is. And there's a tournament, and so we're going to make this one exception that turns into baseball tournaments, that turns into, I don't feel like going to Mass. Success right there, huh? Yeah. From the other side. Right.

But in a subtle way. But there can be all kinds of ways. I think one of the biggest ways is not so much the obvious temptation, but there'll often be a double-sided temptation. So say someone's being tempted to anger or lost or gossip or greed. But then after that, there's a self-condemnation there that often we'll see the first temptation. But we actually kind of make friends with the self-condemnation that I actually get confused and think, this is how I should feel when I sin, which is very different from like the little flower or St.

Francis DeSales, which is, DeSales says we should be most gentle with ourselves and that if I'm angry at myself for my sin, it's not a sign of desire for holiness. It's a sign of, I'm mad, I'm not perfect. And there's a distinction there. Yeah. You know that great book that C.S. Lewis wrote called The Screw Tape Letters, for those of you who have not read that, it really is an interesting book, and it was one of his bestsellers. The basic idea is that he carries on a conversation between two made-up demons, that there's like an older one and an underling, and he's basically schooling him on how to delay, as you said, Father, how to delay union with God. And C.S. Lewis's creativity is extraordinary in how he goes about that. You've read that. What do you think?

I think it's got some great, brilliant pieces on the way temptation works in us. So like the chapter on time and the screw tape letters, I think is brilliant, and something we could read every week and be convicted about. But it's not the way that demons actually tempt. We don't have a guardian demon like the cartoons, where we just have one who's pulling out a bag of tricks. An angel on the right shoulder, demon on the left. Right.

We do have a guardian angel, but demons, St. John Cashin says in conference number seven, that the demons actually work against the original mission that they had, which means if they were meant to be around Mary, they would look to oppose something with Mary. If they were meant to be around purity, they would oppose purity. And so demons will have one temptation. Which is why certain types of prayer work where we can just say agitation be gone in Jesus' name, and it works, because you can actually experience what the demon is through that kind of feeling or notion.

So where C.S. Lewis is more the cartoon way of, there's this one demon who's just trying a hundred different things, where actually it would be a different demon of lust, a different demon of anger. Well, I was going to ask you that. You know that we have different angels, and we have saints who we consider a certain saint to be the saint of politicians or the saint of doctors or the saint of engineers or whatever it might be. And on the dark side, the fallen side, are there specialists? Yes, I would say they're all specialists on the dark side. that they have one thing they do buy in large. They do very, yeah, they do it very badly.

Yeah, or very well if we're cooperating. Sure. But they have one temptation that they go after and they would look to cooperate. They would be drawn to sin. But we always want to keep in mind, too, that everything isn't caused by demons that the spiritual combat says of all

the enemies you face, of which you yourself are the worst, that between the world, the flesh and the devil, the flesh is by far the worst of the enemies. I think he says some about he who follows himself into battle as a fool. Right. Exactly. So when we talk about demonic activity and a demon being very efficient at bringing people down a certain road, what kind of authority do we have as Christians to deal with that? If we had a sense that I'm really battling in a certain area, how would I conclude that

that is a demonic influence and what can I do about it? Yeah, I think the concluding, is it demonic or not? I think the starting point is actually like what we do every Easter with the baptismal creed of I renounce Satan, all his works, all his empty show. I believe in God, the Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, the church. that actually the turning away, in a sense, the discernment on is this demonic or isn't me, if I turn back to the Lord, doesn't matter that much. Right. That the one place where it becomes important is actually in the thought life,

because of a thought's proposed by the demonic, but it seems like my thought, it can kind of lead us to greater and greater discouragement or desolation if I start. So then it feels like I'm bad, but it just kind of keeps growing and it feels like it just got caught in a huge spider weapon. Would that be a strategy of the enemy to get you to think that is, I have nothing to do with this. That is you. Yeah. That is you. That's you and no one's around.

Yeah. And so I think a way is just to say no matter who it is, I'm turning toward the Lord. The Lord's always the solution no matter what the problem. Yeah. You know, you were talking earlier about delaying union with God, in a sense, procrastination. And I thought, I couldn't help but think that maybe procrastination is a virtue of the enemy, you know, as to constant. It's a good thing to wait. It's a good thing to put that off.

We'll get around to it someday, you know, and then someday, someday never comes. I always love Mark Twain's quilt that never put off to tomorrow. Well, you can put off to the day after tomorrow. That's true. That's true. Okay, so fear seems to be the currency of the enemy as well. You know, perfect love casts out fear. And fear seems to be something that the enemy would deal in.

Do we need to be afraid of demonic forces? Not if we're in right order. So... What does that mean? It means I don't have to be afraid if I'm united to Christ. And if I'm in state of grace. and if I'm staying in my lane. Where I have to be cautious is where I develop a curiosity

or a hobby ministry that everything demonic is my business to know and investigate and learn. Say that again, you call that a hobby? Yeah, like a, say it's a little hobby ministry that I want to, like a storm chaser, but it's just I want to know everything. about the demonic and what's happening there. Sure. And there's shows out there like that that are...

Self-proclaimed experts. Yeah, and some's silly, where demons don't have bodies, but they've got, like, heat sensors there to motion sensors. You don't buy it? No, I mean, the demons can show up if they want and they're allowed to, but it's not like the heat sensor's going to work on something that has no body. Yeah. Yeah, you just do a little thinking there.

When we talk about, you know, darkness, these demons, they once were angels. They were good guys. They were flying right, if you will. And then everything turned. What was it in their thinking process as created beautiful beings? What happened in their thought process that flipped the trigger here? Yeah. Well, St. Thomas Aquinas says.

it was in their first moment that they were presented with this. And what it was, I believe, is that they saw God was going to lower himself his plan, and they refused that plan that they said, I will not serve. And they looked to throw themselves in front of God's plan then. They can't harm God himself, but the creatures that he loves so, much that he was going to lower himself and ask the angels, many of them to serve. They can try and afflict them to try and keep them from responding to God. That would make sense, you know, as far as why demonic forces hate human beings so much

and flesh. Right. And really, they're raised up with being united to Jesus' nature. By nature, angels are much higher. of Jesus taking on human nature. There's a new kind of gift or quality there. But also there's just a humiliating reality to it that people have authority in their own lives then

or the church has authority. Bishops, priests, and right order have authority. What a shock it must have been for Jesus to take a moment. on flesh and defeat death hell in the grave.

Right. Yeah. Incomprehensible because it's to lower yourself and be stronger. You talk about being stunned. Yeah. That snuck up on them.

Yeah. But if you look at the way what we value like Jesus dies and sacrificial love and there's this great strength

and humility and peace and kind of loving to the end where the enemy has this strength in ferociousness, agitation, violence.

And we actually view that that's more powerful often when it isn't. Boy, that's... Father, we're going to take a break. When we come back, I want to talk about one of the biggest questions that people have and that is, does the enemy

know what I'm thinking? Can he give me thoughts? Should I say anything out loud, or is that giving away more about me than he should know? And then I want to take a look at Hollywood for a moment before we close out the show. You're listening to The Jeff Kaven Show. We'll be back in just a moment. Is it possible for you to live a life of greatness that is more than just confusing relationships, endless scrolling, and unfulfilling friendships?

I'm Sarah Swofford, author of Emotional Virtue. And I'm Andrew Swofford, Professor. Professor at Benedictine College and co-author of a Catholic Guide to the Old Testament and editor of the Great Adventure Catholic Bible. And we wrote a book with Ascension called Gift and Grit. How heroic virtue can change your life and relationships. Gift and Grit shows you how to foster authentic relationships and answer life's deepest questions, especially in our walk with the Lord. Gift and grit is like grabbing a cup of coffee with us and hearing our experience from working with young adults and college students for over 15 years. We chat about everything from fostering good and faithful friendships with both men and women. Pursuing holy romantic relationships.

Achieving the greatness that every person desires. And so much more. We want you to live a life that's full of meaning and purpose, which is exactly why we wrote Gift and Grit. You can order your copy of Gift and Grit at ascensionpress.com slash gift and grit. thanks for coming back today we are talking about the activity of the enemy in the kingdom of god or influencing people in the kingdom of god last session we were talking about angels today we're talking about demonic activity and what are the boundaries should we be afraid what is their capacity, what is our authority, what is real, what is not.

And we're talking with Father John Vanderplug, and of course he is the director of spiritual formation at St. Paul's Seminary, and that's in St. Paul, Minneapolis. Father, you are director of spiritual formation. This whole issue of angels and demonic activity certainly would be something that seminarians would be acquainted with. Yeah, I think because they're. they're going to be serving people in parishes and who have questions who may have families who bump into things.

Sure. And it's actually a normal role of the church to be able to engage these things. Often we've slid into a way either where we don't believe it, period. I'm not saying the church, but individuals. Or we believe it's a few weird people who know a lot about it, and they deal with it. But it's actually, Jesus always mentions it with healing, with preaching the gospel, with it's a normal part of Christian life.

Where are we at in the timeline right now, as far as the fall took place, these are not angels anymore, they're demons, and as far as God's timeline, you mentioned earlier, they have been loosed on earth for a time. What's their fate? Their fate is, the church's teaching is that they're condemned to hell by their choice. They're different than us where...

Can they repent? They cannot repent. Their origin and a couple others had some thought that maybe they could. But really their nature, but the church has been fairly clear on the can't. and that has to do with their nature that because they see the end of things where we tend to be foolish we learn things as we go

we'll get at the end of the day or the end of the month or look a few years back and say I can't believe I did that they never have that experience it must ruffle their feathers a little bit to know that we have so many opportunities to repent yeah but they have the intelligence actually to see the end of what they're

choosing all the time. Wow. So they can see the full implication of what they're choosing. Wow. And they choose it. What about, you know, sometimes you, you hear people who are so brash with the enemy, in a sense disrespectful. And I think that they're over their skis a little bit when they start commanding and ordering and acting like they're the general of God's army. what would be your suggestion? What would be your advice to people as far as they're addressing the enemy? Yeah, I think one is Christ is the one who's all powerful, not me. And I think you want to be around people who have experience there.

There's people both priests lay who do have some experience, but there would be, I would say, a hierarchy of experience. So everyone shouldn't be just self-assigning themselves. And I think a person... Is it dangerous for someone to do that? Yeah, I think it can be if they're not in right order or have the right kind of mentoring, training. So, and you wouldn't want to be the one who kind of appoint yourself

that I'm gifted in this area there for. Oh, yes. And I wouldn't just have, like, your good friends who are like-minded that it should be someone with far more experience. Right. It was above you. And the truth with all these areas, the keys is not giftedness. The keys are humility, obedience, charity, that that's the fruit and the battle. It's not, the enemy is not afraid of my virtue.

He's not afraid of my giftedness. Yeah. He's not afraid of. He's not afraid of your spiritual machismo, huh? No, he's afraid of Christ. Yeah. And where Christ is reflected, so if Christ is reflected in the virtue, he's afraid of Christ, not me. A couple things I would like to discuss.

One is probably, I don't know, I think it's on a lot of people's minds. When they start to think about the enemy, they're wondering, does he know my thoughts? does he put thoughts into my head? Do I have agency? Can I control myself and feel like I'm not vulnerable to just thoughts? And should I say anything? Does that simply give him more information about who I am? And he doesn't need to know that.

So I think a lot of people really want to know this. Yeah. the enemy cannot read my thoughts but they would be like someone who is incredibly good at reading a person far more than any person and they can be good guessers they can also do things like propose a temptation and then see how you respond do you sit in it do you resist it right away what works so they get very good at guessing we want to be aware of that I'm not a fan of designing all of life around the enemy. Praise God.

I think that gives them way too much power. I also think, where's the cutoff point to that? Do you tell your wife you love her, or do you not want the enemy to know you love her? So you don't say it, which obviously probably wouldn't go real well for a long time. But we could get so careful that our whole life is this parent. annoy around the enemy which that's not a view of Christ being the victor now that's not saying we don't

have to be prudent we shouldn't be foolish but but I think we want to be Christ as the victor and we claim that so if we're going to put energy and they wouldn't be dancing around the enemy to me it would be let's surrender more let's pray more let's give yourself more to Jesus right and let that. Yeah, because the strength is humility, and humility does confess, and humility is honest about who we are in relationship to God and one another, and in that humility, there is strength, but I can see how people would say, well, I'm not going to confess that. That gives the enemy more leverage, completely forgetting about the fact that Jesus has all leverage, you know? Right. No, confess sin that's forgiven. The enemy has no hold on the person. An

unconfessed sin. Go there. That's interesting. The role of confession in this. Yeah. So where a person confesses the sin, that will never make the enemy happy. In fact, if it's hypothetical, but if a demon accused a person of not confessing, shaming them, and they picked that up and went to confession, that demon would not be in a good state because there's other demons. that would be very upset with them, that in a state of grace, there's far more sight, far more power. And the reality is the demonic

can do plenty of things that are painful and difficult, but there's absolutely nothing anyone can do that I can't humble myself, repent, growing from conversion, that the Lord can't use for the good, that there's never this hopeless, helpless, place, even in the worst situations.

Is it a good, is it a fair to say that spotting the work of the enemy without spending too much time thinking about the enemy, but that the work of the enemy is keeping me from union with Christ and to be aware of that in your own life? Yeah, I think it can be good as long as the union with Christ has the predominant and that I'm seeing this in order to respond to that. Yeah. So if someone notices a pattern in their life, when I get too tired or when I'm in this situation, these temptations come up, that can help to see I'm more vulnerable there. And then to look at how do I resist that, it's not by, oh, no, the enemy's going to get me again.

It's more like, who can I call, who can I connect with, what can I do that's actually going to help me in that situation to be. prepared. My final question for you is one that you and I have, we've talked about this before, and in fact it was what really brought this whole interview up in our discussion. There's a lot of interest, and I would say curiosity about the darkness out there. I heard someone say one time that, and I don't believe it to be true, but that the difference between holiness and darkness and the demonic is is very little i think that they're you don't think there's a thin line between between the two but people are attracted in a strange way to horror they're attracted in a strange way to murder to uh to witness things that should never be a part of our thinking

so much so that they'll pay fifteen dollars to sit for two and a half hours and to be entertained. And there's a lot of movies out there over the years that people have gone to. What, as a priest, what is your view of this whole enterprise of making horror films, demonic films, and suggesting that people see them? Yeah, I think it's, I would never recommend it. For several reasons. One, some of them, not all of them, but some of them can actually be luring or they're made with some malicious intent to try and move people towards something. But anything we encounter that affects us, whether it's suffering, whether it's love, it doesn't leave us unchanged. And I think we are sensed.

sensory creatures and we have to be stewards of what we see, what we hear, what we spend time in. Because the reality is that many of us have experienced this. I can come back from a place where I was not around that and I see something and I'm shocked by it. But say I stay around it three months later, I'm laughing at something that I was shocked at before. Sure. That something in me changed. and often I think I'm strong and in possession of all this but actually what we have to be is more good stewards

of what do I put in what is it affect not only there but what am I thinking about during the day what am I looking forward to what is my heart long for why is it that life is so boring that I need to somehow scare myself into something else

What am I disengaged with? What do you think the desire is there? What is there in us that is drawn to that? I think there's a desire for excitement, but where it's distant. And I think there's a false curiosity that there's something powerful out there. It scares me. It gives this jarring emotional experience. sure but i i think it's different from that real virtue that can actually bring a peace and joy

that might start quieter but be much longer lasting and go much deeper you know some people have uh advanced the idea that that pornography is demonic uh adoration you know and it is looking at the enemy in his work and what he's doing and how he's he's ravaging human beings and tearing their lives apart and people are somehow attracted to that. Is there also the case that going to those types of movies and becoming involved in that, that we're giving the enemy just way too much attention and way too much credit? Yeah, I think so. And it leads me to be pondering that, to thinking about it.

And my going there, it's all big business. there's a few people who are probably doing it for a mission. A lot of people are doing it because it makes money. And if I'm there, I'm sending signals, whether I like it or not, that this is what I want to do. This is what I'm willing to pay for. This is what I'm willing to spend time on. I do have to ask you one more question.

I just, you know, getting ready to close, I felt like I need to ask you this question because I can just sense right now that there is a mother or a father, listening at this moment who is really wanting to ask you, Father, how do our children open themselves up to darkness? Is there, is it okay to do astrology and tarot cards and Ouija boards and that type of thing if it's done with just innocent hearts and it's just entertainment? No, things like tarot cards, Ouija boards, that kind of thing. They do have a real sometimes we get fascinated by how something works,

but I always ask the who, who's doing this, what's it connected to? And we have a weird notion that's not the way we're made sometimes. If I said, if I came up and punched you in the nose, you said, what are you doing? And I said, well, I was thinking good thoughts about you when I did it. It's like it doesn't, it's a divorce from, from reality that I don't get to do one and not the other and we often do this I was doing this

activity but I was saying Jesus's name when I'm doing it's like well that's good but it'd probably be better if you said his name and didn't do the activity that that were bodily creatures and what we expose our to selves to we don't get to say I'm letting this in my senses but I'm saying this prayer so then it's not going to have any effect it's like you can't unsee a car crash you don't get to just erase it or delete it. So you believe that it could open a door to things that you don't want? Yeah, and I think I wouldn't say it in the most fearful way, but I would say it, why would we want to spend time there?

What would you tell parents to say to their kids? I would say, this isn't good for you. I don't want you to do it, and here's some of the whys. but why don't why don't we look at investing in this area? Why don't we take steps this way? And more not

to just rain and everything bad but what do I want to build what'll bring hope and think not just this week but this month but actually a year, two years, five years. If I do a little thing every day, every week, every month

what's the fruit of that going to be? versus if I let this thing slide. I need to ask you one more question, I guess, and that is that, and I know there's nothing that we can really do in an interview like this, but somebody listening that feels like there's somebody in their family, things are just not right.

There is something very, very different about a family member, and they are wondering about this whole issue of demon possession and what they see on the movies and so forth. But what should be someone's first order of a business as far as their archdiocese or their diocese? What should they do? Yeah, I think to talk to their priest. And really often what we look for is the extraordinary. We just want to jump to exorcism or I need to see the exorcist.

But 80% of what would have to happen, even if that was the case, would be actually. going back to Mass, going to confession, learning to pray, learning the faith, building healthy relationships. So actually, some of the first steps are actually the very ordinary means of grace of how do I grow in that, and then talk to someone who can then, that there's people out there who can pray. At this time, there's kind of an overflow. some of that stuff.

But I think actually going back to the ordinary means of grace is where we always start. Of, am I going to Mass? Am I going to confession? Yeah. Am I praying and settling in there? I like that. Yeah, I like that in that the response is not over sensationalizing this as well. I remember hearing about some evangelical or evangelical.

preacher one time. It was, you know, in the middle of the night, and you woke up and I guess he thought he saw the enemy and he woke up and just looked at her and said, oh, it's you. And I know I went back to sleep after that. Sometimes we give far more credit. And when you, if you, if you match up Jesus and Satan, you match up Michael the archangel and demonic activity, you're on the right side. Right. Yeah. So even certain prayers can be very helpful. St. Patrick's breastplate, the chaplain of St. Michael, which is like a little rosary type thing that's a devotion to St. Michael and the nine choirs of angels. What about holy water and blessing your home? Yeah, that can be a great thing. Having your home blessed, but also the family

regularly kind of walking around and praying and blessing it with holy water can be an important thing. Yeah. Having an image of the sacred heart. It's been so good talking to you. And You know, it is one of those topics where you can go on and on. I think knowing something about it, but moving forward and doing what we're supposed to be doing with our time probably is the best thing, you know, for our lives. I remember talking to a guy that worked at one of the, I don't know if they call it the mint, you know, where they make dollar bills and make five and $10, $20 bills. And he said something very interesting. He said that the people who are in charge of finding counterfeits, and they spot counterfeit bills.

They said they don't spend as much time as you think studying counterfeit. They study the real. They look at the real dollar, the real 20, the real hundred, and the minute they see a counterfeit, it just screams at them. Would that fit in here as well? Totally. What I said about the enemy looking to prevent her delay union with God, it shows us where we need to head.

We don't need to figure out every twist and turn of the enemy. Sure. We know what he's trying to block, and so you go toward union with God. That's great. Father, would you close us out in prayer? Yeah, be happy to. The Father, Son, Holy Spirit, amen. Lord Jesus, we thank you for your love, your truth, your power.

We ask that you would protect us, that you would guide us, and that we would let our attention go more and more to you, your love, and your truth. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen. Amen. Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. My friend, it's been good to spend more time with you in the last couple of weeks talking about these critical issues. And I pray that you'll just keep going forward and be that disciple. Take on the yoke of Jesus, the worldview of Jesus, get close to to Jesus, desire to become like Jesus. And I think you're going to be just okay. So I look forward to talking to you next week and have a wonderful week. Thank you.