The Jeff Cavins Show (Your Catholic Bible Study Podcast) - The Importance of Angels with Fr. Jon Vander Ploeg

Episode Date: July 21, 2023

What are angels? What is their purpose? What is our relationship with angels? There are so many questions around angels and today Jeff Cavins talks with Fr. Jon Vander Ploeg to get the answers to a lot of these questions. Through this episode, you will learn more about what angels are and what angels are not. Snippet from the Show Sometimes where we have a lack of hope or trust in Christ, we will grow sentimental in a way that lacks truth. Email us with comments or questions at [e-mail]. Text “jeffcavins” to 33-777 to subscribe and get Jeff’s shownotes delivered straight to your email! Or visit ascensionpress.com/thejeffcavinsshow for full shownotes!

Welcome to the Jeff Kaven Show, where we talk about the Bible, discipleship, and evangelization, putting it all together and living as activated disciples. This is show 33, the importance of angels, Father John Vanderplug. Welcome to the show today. Ah, you're in for a treat today on the Jeff Kaven show. you have an opportunity to listen to a master today who's going to share with us some ideas about the angelic realm in the kingdom of God. And as you know, we have in the kingdom of God, we have angels and we've got archangels, we've got all kinds of spiritual activity going on behind

the scenes. And I thought it would be a great idea to tap into the vast knowledge of Father John Vanderplug. He is director of formation at the seminary in St. Paul. That's where I work as well and I teach. And I have been with him for many, many years and have grown to really respect his insight and his knowledge about angels, but also in the next show, we're going to talk about the demonic realm. And I think that what you're going to gain today is going to be very helpful in your life. We're going to clear up some of the misunderstandings and establish some of the teachings of the church when it comes to angels, their rank, our relationship with angels, and how they are different than human beings. And so I bring you this meeting I had with

Father John Vanderplug, and I hope you're blessed. Today I'm talking with Father John Vanderplug, who is the director of spiritual formation at St. Paul Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota. It's been a friend for many, many years. He studied angelology. There's a word. that you can practice saying. And I've invited him today to talk to us a little bit about the whole topic of angels, which is so fascinating to so many people. If you write a book on angels, people want to buy it because they're interested in angels. So we want to talk today about what angels are, what angels are not, and how this fits into our walk with Jesus and what it means to pick up Jesus yoke and to follow him. Of course, there mentioned many times in the Bible.

Let's go deeper today. So I want to introduce you to my good friend, Father John Vanderplu. Good to have you on the show. Good to be with you, Jeff. I've been looking forward to talking about these topics like angels with you for quite some time because I know that you've studied it. You've had experience with people in this area. And there's so much out there that I think people misunderstand or there's like teachings that go around and people grab a hold of it and suddenly it becomes like church teaching and it's really not. So I want to start up just by asking you probably the most basic question possible, what are angels? What are they? And some people even ask, are they real? Yes, angels are real. As you mentioned, they're all over scripture. And they're also in the

world of theology, St. Thomas Aquinas speaks about them a great deal and with some real depth a number of the fathers of the church. But angels are created by God before human beings or the world are created and they have greater intelligence, greater beauty than we do. And the angels are created in a hierarchy. And in the term hierarchy, the original terms comes from pseudo Dionysius. And the understanding of hierarchy, we often think of as very practical, who's in charge, who has to follow what they're told to do. But it actually is more like an unfolding of goodness and truth and light. And so the higher angels, there's nine choirs. The highest angels would be closest to God, those first three choirs, seraphim, cherubim, and thrones. And then there's a middle three

that would kind of be between heaven and us. And then the lower three are more directly connected to us, where most of the guardian angels and things would come from them. But they're highly intelligent, far more intelligent than human beings. But created by God? Created by God and created good. created as beings who, as we're created, but different. There's so much out there in movies and so forth, and we're going to talk about that a little bit later, but there's so much out there about angels that angels are not.

What would you say they are not? One, angels are not like the cartoons or demons are not like the cartoons, I would say, where they're just on your shoulder, where one's following you around all the time. but angels are not people people when they go to heaven don't become angels that would be worse than saying a cat becomes a dog that they're different beings

and sometimes in a way where we have a lack of hope or we're clinging onto something other than Christ will grow sentimental in a way that lacks truth and often will turn the angels in that way and you see this a lot of times in art even

angels are not little babies angels are not beautiful women angels don't actually have physical wings that they're spiritual beings but incredibly powerful and serve the Lord and his wishes

how would you compare angels with us in terms of our power, angels' power, their wisdom, insight, what they can do, our relationship with them. One distinction between them is they're higher than us on the natural order. So one thing I was talking to a professor there, and St. Thomas Aquinas distinguishes the difference between them. And this professor said something very true, which is a mountain would have more in common with a worm than one angel would with another, that the level of their beauty, their significance, even in one angel right next to another in the same hierarchy, would be magnificently different and creative. So their light, their beauty would be more of a reflection of God on the natural order.

Their beauty, their strength, their intelligence. And they can see the ends of things much quicker. And what I mean by that is like the brightest mathematician or physicist, the lowest angel on the lowest choir, you could say the least intelligent angel, could solve any problem. instantaneously that we would have. So their mind would be just of a higher grade than ours is their way of seeing and knowing. What about angels when it comes to us,

and let's say that we pass away, we're a part of the resurrection, we're resurrected, we're in heaven, angels present, what's our relationship with them there once we see face to face, Jesus? Yeah. Fathers of the church would talk about the guardian angel actually is walking with you, at least from baptism, through actually purgatory, through presenting you to in heaven, that they're with you through everything there. That's their mission to walk with you, to be with you, to serve, and they do that joyfully kind of with. That's probably the most interesting topic for people that they want to get into is the idea that God has given me a guardian angel or an angel that is assigned to me.

And go into that a little bit deeper because I think some people kind of think that the angel is more like a butler. Somebody who does your bidding. Right. And what is the guardian angel? What's the relationship with us? Yeah. Often people will think like my guardian angel is. like my servant, I tell it to go do this and it doesn't, where actually it's got a particular

mission, and that is to help me respond fully to the will of God. How do I respond to his love, his truth? And so sometimes people might ask, I got this poke to do something right. Was that the Holy Spirit? Was that my conscience? Was that my guardian angel? And the answer might be yes to all of them, that it cooperates fully with God's will. But it's actually there to help me in a spiritual order, especially, to respond to God's will. We will tend to think of it mainly on the physical order, which it does, it can help there, but it's primarily concerned with the deeper interior stuff of my soul. Yeah, that's not something that you hear a whole lot about. You typically here well my guardian angel was with me and prevented a car accident yeah and that could be

that could be for sure but it would be most interested in what's what brings about salvation belief in jesus christ deeper conversion holiness do we know anything about how they would do that behind the scenes how how would i know how a parent would want their children to obey the will of god and what they would say to their children and the opportunity that they afforded them. But what might a guardian angel do to help me understand and walk in God's will? I think a guardian angel could help you, one, get light on something so it can actually put something more forcibly before you that it comes to mind. It pokes the interior. They can protect from outside forces that you might be exposed to. But a lot of it

would have to do with my will, too, that what is my cooperation with it? So, for example, parents having children baptized, that the fathers would say that the angels see the soul of the baby and look at it with wonder, that there's such light there. But also doing prayers to guardian angel, like some of the traditional ones, or Padre Piu, had a wonderful prayer to his guardian angel. That that's a way actually of giving invitation to the angel to help me in some way. That's interesting because when you think about communication with your guardian angel, like I said before, to people typically think of do this, do that, and like I know exactly what needs to be done here and I need somebody to do it in the invisible realm. But the idea of prayer

to an angel or discussion with an angel, you're saying that it's primarily opening yourself up and saying, I'm open to becoming more like Jesus help me. Right, and we do have this wrong notion, both I think about angels, but about prayer. But in Isaiah 55 where it said God's ways are not your ways, his ways are higher, that actually I don't actually see clearly. And the angel is in the beatific vision.

So it does see clearly. Like St. Thomas Aquinas asked the question of, can an angel err? And he says, no, they can see two ways. One way is on the natural order. They can see things. But the second way is they see through union with God. And that way of seeing through union with God can't hear. So the angel sees more clearly than I do.

But we can have this issue even with prayer where I think I see what needs to be. be done, my prayer is telling God what needs to be done, and then I get mad at him when he doesn't do it. Versus I need to actually change. Sure. So you could tell your guardian angel what to do and to get mad because it didn't. Right. Exactly. We're mad at everybody for not agreeing with our will. As James says, you become angry because you, you don't, you ask and you don't get what you want. Right. That's right. So you put your guardian angel in the doghouse, sort of speak, going a little bit deeper with this idea of a guardian angel, and I don't mean to step on anybody's toes or to discount anyone's relationship with their angel, but it has become

very vogue over the last 10, 15, 20 years or so to actually name your guardian angel, which I don't know that a guardian angel would say, finally, someone gave me a name, you know. But what do you think about that? This idea, what does a church teach us about naming a guardian angel? Yeah, the church actually not too long ago came out with kind of discouraging that practice. And it's for a practical reason. So if St. Catherine, a Siena showed up and you were friends with her lived in her age, and she told you, I wouldn't have a lot of concern about someone saying, like, I don't believe that.

But the truth is, with the spiritual world like that, we can't discern well between what's praetor natural, which is kind of beyond us that we can't discern, or the demonic. And so the church is always cautious with us reaching out in a curious way. And there's a lot of spiritual practices that aren't helpful in like the New Age movement or things like that that can cross over and dabble in this. So the church more in kind of wisdom says where we actually don't have clear sight,

it's good not to be exposing ourselves and reaching out. We just don't have the capacity to discern there very well. Well, I think people have a pretty good idea of what it would be like if you were suddenly in the presence of Jesus physically, and we are in the mass, you know, with the U.S. and we have a certain decorum, we have a certain attitude that we would carry into that relationship. What should our relationship be like with angels? What's our attitude? What is our place and how do we behave? Yeah. I think there's a there's kind of a lost way of

understanding that actually comes out of one of the St. Paul's letters, which is which is actually actually knowing that the angels are looking on, that you're seeing you're not alone. We'll have this that used to pop up actually in liturgical things, even like a thousand years ago, like, am I praying alone if you're not here, where we've actually tend to miss kind of understanding the entire breath of the church, and that includes saints, that includes angels. But I'm actually never alone when I'm praying there. So the angels can be companions. I can pray and ask for their help. And that can be an extemporaneous ways where I just pray in my own words. Or protection? Yep, for protection, devotion. There's great litanies,

novenas, consecrations to the holy angels that can be beautiful. prayers like in this way. But they're relational beings who are created by God, and we can have a good and ordered relationship with them. Very good. We're talking with Father John Vanderplug. He is the director of spiritual formation, St. Paul's Seminary, St. Paul, the Twin Cities, St. Paul in Minneapolis. And we're talking about angels here. We're going to take a break. When we come back. I want to get into a little bit about the nature of an angel and spiritual warfare. And what we hear about in the liturgy when we talk about celebrating the Eucharist and all the angels and saints and what their participation is in the Eucharist. We'll be right back.

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Thanks again for joining us. Today we're talking with Father John Vanderplug. He has studied and has directed quite a few people. people in angelology. That is a big word. That's the study of angels. And I've invited him to the show today because so many people talk about angels. And it's one of those topics that Christians are interested in, but also people who are not Christians, people who don't go to church that might even call themselves just spiritual but not religious. Somehow they have a sense of angels as well. And Father, welcome back.

Thank you. You no doubt have heard that before. You know where there's even movies and there's television shows about angels where they take the idea and then they craft an angel kind of in our own image for the purposes of their show. Right. Yeah. There's old movies where the angel's smoking and doing whatever else or clumsy. But actually, angels are highly intelligent, spiritual. beings who have passed a test and are in the beatific vision with the Lord.

And they're about us, they're about worshiping rightly. And we're actually invited into kind of joining them and worshiping God. Yeah, well, that brings me to the Eucharist. Yeah. And we mentioned that right in mass, don't we? With the angels and saints. And the Eucharist seems to be this, well, not seems to be it is. this great big coming together of the heavenly hosts and all of us here here on earth.

Talk to us a little bit about angels in worship and participation in the Eucharist. Yeah, there's a book. It's more of an academic book by Eric Peterson called Angels in the Liturgy. And it has a very interesting understanding, which is that angels and actually our understanding of angels has a lot to do with us worshipping brightly. And what he mentions, as I mentioned before, there's nine choirs of angels. He talks about humanity as a 10th choir of angels

that were brought to worship around God and were raised because of our union with Jesus, because Jesus takes on our flesh, that were raised above the angels. And we receive him in a different way. that so like we encounter God in a different way than the angels do, that we can have the indwelling of the Holy Trinity through baptism. We receive the sacraments of the Eucharist.

We receive in our body, which the angels don't have a physical body like that. But the angels are with us at mass, in a sense, we're drawn more into their realm and invited into that, heavenly worship as we pray. But it's actually a tremendous gift that often can protect us from just seeing the sacraments or prayer or different forms of worship is just things I have to do, that they're actually communion with God. And everything else I do is actually aimed at this and flows from it.

So it's fair to say that when we go to Mass, we go and we go and we go. we worship with angels. Yes. That's a pretty interesting idea. Well, you know, going back, and perhaps we should have talked about this first, but going back a long, long time ago, there something happened. There were all angels, but something happened. Yes.

That divided angels into two different camps. What was that? And when did that take place? Yes. Yes, the fall of the angels took place before. the world or humanity was created, they would have been presented with God revealing some of his plan right when they were created

and they would have saw as part of that plan that God was going to lower himself below them even. And it says some of them, St. Irania, says a third of them fell. And we tend to think, in our imagination, there's a million demons and there's like three little baby angels who are trying to hold up the four. But a third of the angels fell.

And what they look to do is to prevent and delay union with God. So the fallen angels? The fallen angels, yes. So the fallen angels would look to, they would be most threatened and most concentrated on someone who's moving toward high-level sainthood. So like on a 10-point scale, if someone's moving from an 8 to a 9 to a 10, they would put their biggest people there, most of their energy there, because of the threat that it has. And one thing we always need to keep in mind with dealing with fallen angels

and the demonic, is we tend to view evil and holiness as the same thing. But there was an interesting thing with St. John Vianney that's somewhat well known, where a demon said to him, if there were three more of you on earth, my kingdom would be broken. And that number is very small, four people fully given to the Lord, versus the kingdom of evil would win. Sure. And so one of the cautions I always have is what we watch, what we take in,

when we watch the news, bad news sells and it's big business. And it can actually give a misperception that actually there's so much evil in the world, it doesn't really matter because you need an equal amount of holy people there. And that's completely false. Sure. In our next episode, you and I are actually going to get into this issue of the dark side, you know, and what they're capable of doing and how prevalent it is in our society. But that does lead me to this issue of spiritual warfare. Many people are interested in spiritual warfare, and I think because they sense so much demonic and so much darkness around them, where do angels come?

in when it comes to spiritual warfare. Let's say, for example, hypothetically, you've got Angel A and you've got Demon A. Yeah. Who wins? Why? And Michael, the Archangel, is he like the greatest of the greatest warriors when it comes to the angels? Yeah. Yeah, very good question.

So I would say it would depend on a couple of things. One, an angel of itself is more intelligent than a demon. Because, as I said before, an angel can see through both on the natural order but also in union with God. A demon can only see on the natural order. Okay. So they can err with regard to, like, obviously, the crucifixion is a clear example of that. If they knew the implications of it. Right.

Wouldn't have done it. They wouldn't have done it. Yeah. But there's all kinds of things like that where they can't quite see the ends. Now, they're not going to make them mistaken. stake on 2 plus 2 is 5 or something like that. But in the order of grace or what God's plan is, they don't always see clearly there.

When it comes to battling over an individual, some would depend on the individual. Yeah. Like if there's a desire to cooperate, even if the person's weak, that will give the angel more power. Sure. If there's a willingness to fight,

if there's a repentance, if there's sacramental confession, that gives the angel more power. So the angel isn't going to go against your will? No, the angel will not override your will. So if I choose that I do not want to grow in holiness, I'm not going to get, like, dragged out of the house and brought to church or confession. But they can prod, they can encourage, they can Pope to try and get your respond. But if I choose to follow something else, they can't work against my will there. Sure. What do you imagine?

I know there's no way to answer it for, you know, specifically. But with what's going on in the world today, there's so much conflict. There is a lot of conflict with ideologies, you know, and not only in America, but around the world. What would you guess this happening behind the scenes? Yeah, I I tend to actually not go down that road too far where I always just think of Psalm 62 that only in God is my soul at rest

And at times we see things falling apart and evil At times they see worse That doesn't mean they were worse before I might just mean I didn't see that clearly Or I didn't have the information So I think there is more, as society kind of shifts away from a Christian background, you will see more stuff, more openings. But there's also just a reality that in the history of the church, some of those darkest days are when the most saints are raised up. Sure.

So I'm always of the view of that managing the problem isn't the best solution. It's like full surrender to the Lord, abandonment to him is what produces fruit. Yeah. Well, I want to ask you also, and this might be for our Protestant friends who do listen to the show all around the world. There are things that we do as Catholics that seem a little strange, you know, in some ways. I remember when I was making my move back to the Catholic Church, I walked into a Catholic bookstore, St. Mark's in Dayton, Ohio, incognito. And I walked in there, and I have to admit, even though I was curious and I was studying, when I walked in, it was like, whoa, all these statues and everything.

When it comes to angels, there are a lot of statues of St. Michael the Archangel or Raphael or whoever it might be. And I'm wondering, can you share with us what is the meaning of a statue? Does a statue, do we think it has power, or is it just simply pointing us to something? Because we see these in yards, we see them in people's gardens and so forth. And you don't hear many people talking about the theological implications of a statue. Yeah. Yeah, and I think they can be not known for the depth they can have, but the depth is connected to, in part, how I respond to it.

Does it remind me of something? Does it call to mind how I can respond to the Lord? Does it call to mind to pray to St. Michael? Does it lift my mind and heart there? There was a real false kind of architectural way of building churches and stuff that was more like in the Catholic world. It was more like we don't need any of this stuff. Everything should be love of neighbor.

But what it did is actually it led to actually a ceasing to believe in lots of things that are revealed by God. And it led to this dower at times way of not seeing beyond myself to what God's doing. And a statue can actually inspire, it can remind me. I know someone that in their house they have a picture of Jesus in the Sacred Heart. every time they walk by it, they kiss it. And there's a reminder. It's not saying this picture is Jesus personified. We don't worship it.

Right, we don't worship it. But it's a reminder, I love him. And so it points to something beyond itself. Sure. And it can draw me there. So it's just like if you have a loved one, there is a difference between talking on the phone and seeing them in person or touching them.

And it actually calls to mind something because we're sensory creatures. We learn, and we're different from the angels this way. The angels don't learn through sensing, but we touch. A baby is always putting things in their mouth. Touching, grabbing, looking. And we're sensory.

And so it's actually acknowledging how we're made that we learn through seeing, through touching, and that can inspire us draws. Would you say that an angel has infused knowledge? Yes, can. And also they would have knowledge that was given to them at their creation to fulfill their mission, and then they can learn tremendous amount. So the knowledge that for their mission was infused, but they can learn at a rapid pace. I'm curious. Have you ever had? an encounter or anything in your life where you thought to yourself, I wonder, if I,

because the scripture says, you know, to be careful of how you, how you, you know, conduct yourself because you might be entertaining angels unaware. Yeah. Yes, I, I definitely think I have. I definitely think I have. Even as in high school, there were a couple encounters. So I wouldn't say like on a daily day. basis it was there but there were on more than one occasion yeah an encounter that was that was

real and it had a different feel sometimes you'll see these things that are like someone's got a picture that's can you see the cross and the clouds and you're you're looking so I don't mean in that kind of way but in in a way where where there was something significant that you could you could sense it there I had one a years ago I was in North Dakota, Valley City, North Dakota, and I was walking down the street. And I walked almost right into a guy who told me something. I don't need to go into it, but he told me something about my life. And I looked at him, sort of confused, and I turned around, and then I looked back, and nobody was there.

And I thought, wow, wow. And that ended up turning into something really wonderful. And like I said, no need to go into it. But I wonder how many people have had experiences like that or right before an accident felt something pushing them. We hear that a lot. Yeah. I did have this experience in college just praying with someone who was a friend.

And I had this overwhelming experience to pray right now. And like very strong and something happened. And just some kind of healing or something coming off of them. And it wasn't overly dramatic. But it was this instantaneous, very strong, very striking. But in a way where it's not like you have to try and remember it. It sticks with you. I love what you said at the beginning of our discussion about angels in their interaction with us

is one of trying to bring you closer to the Lord. to follow Jesus, obedience, to pick up the yoke of Jesus and walk in that. As we close this out, I would just ask you for our parents who are listening. And they no doubt have said to their children, you know, you've got a guardian angel and talk about the angels and the kids are fascinated. How would you instruct parents to teach their children about the angels in God's kingdom? Yeah, I would say that parents both have a tremendous spiritual authority over, I would say, a priest in right order, a person over themselves, and a parent with a child has tremendous authority in the spiritual realm. And I think to never get discouraged or think I don't know enough so I'm not going to share that when I was first ordained, I went. to anoint a man who was probably 90, and I was there for a short time.

He told me one story, which was that they went to Mass every Sunday, but during a snowstorm once they didn't go, and his dad didn't talk about the faith a lot, but he said, we're staying here, we're going to do the readings, we're going to pray. And what struck me about it is not how unusual the story was, but that this man, has one story to tell me and that's what he chose to tell me something that happened 80 years ago and that he could remember

so so actually a parent telling the children is good a parent praying with the children is even better and if the child sees the parent praying that will model it for them

that I think if even as a family it can be a beautiful thing to pray, simple prayer together or to talk about it. And that can really bring a lot of fruit far more than what parents realize. That's beautiful. Anything else you'd like to share with our, audience as we close out, just a recap or one more word of wisdom about angels? Yeah, I just think that the angels are connected to God and his love for us. That God doesn't need us, but he loves us and he has creatures who actually try and help us respond to him that he desires to have us know his love, his truth so much that he gives us so many different ways of guiding. The angels is a strong

one. And so I'd encourage people to just in simple ways, you don't have to know everything about the angels, but even if you can do one thing to find one good prayer to the angels that you pray. Right. When parents are instructing their children, do you give any instructions to parents about angels, male, female? Angels are not male or female. Okay. Yeah. It is a common misunderstanding. Yeah. Yeah. They're not male or female. They're not, they don't have bodies either. Sure. But they're, yeah, they're uniquely their own. And they're powerful and their power comes from God. Their power comes from God. Wow. Thanks. I can't thank you enough for joining us and it's one of those topics that we could go into, you know, for weeks and talk about the different

dimensions of angels because the kingdom of God is just that big. But someday, you know, like when we see Jesus face to face and the beatific vision, I think our understanding of angels is going to be wide open as well. and we're going to be amazed at what went on behind the scenes when we were on earth if we could but see that. You know, we talk about all of that radio waves that are going on all throughout the country, but to think of all the action and all the activity behind the scenes, I think it would probably stun most people. Yes, I think you're right.

Would you mind closing us out in prayer? Yeah. Name of the Father and Son, the Holy Spirit. Amen. Lord Jesus, we ask you to. to draw us to yourself, remove from us, anything we're carrying you don't want us to carry. And we ask you to let your holy angels to guide us, to inspire us, to respond more fully to you. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Well, God bless you, my friend.

We look forward to being with you next session. In fact, Father John Vanderplug, who is the director of spiritual formation of St. Paul Seminary will be joining us. To talk about the other side of spiritual warfare, we've been talking about angels. We're going to talk about a little bit about the dark side. That's next, next week on the Jeff Kaven show. God bless.